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NSA Admits Searching "3 Hops" From Suspects

New submitter cpitman writes "In a house hearing Wednesday the NSA admitted that it could query not only a suspect's records, but also perform up to a 'three hop query'. Considering that most people in the world are separated by under 6 degrees of separation, the NSA essentially claims that any single suspect gives them rights to investigate a large chunk of the world's population. With the terror watch list having over 700,000 names, just how many times has Kevin Bacon been investigated?"

26 of 322 comments (clear)

  1. Can we discuss the fourth amendment now? by intermodal · · Score: 5, Insightful

    At this revelation, it doesn't take a libertarian to point out that this isn't based on probable cause.

    --
    In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
    1. Re:Can we discuss the fourth amendment now? by vux984 · · Score: 5, Funny

      Oh I dunno. If a terrorist suspects real-estate agents daughter's mechanic fixes your car don't you think the NSA should have that information?

    2. Re:Can we discuss the fourth amendment now? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      I'm sure the NSA mentioned this sort of case in its request to the FISA court which then approved it.

    3. Re:Can we discuss the fourth amendment now? by Lendrick · · Score: 5, Funny

      "So what does that make us?"

      "ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! Which is what you are about to become!"

    4. Re:Can we discuss the fourth amendment now? by sexconker · · Score: 4, Informative

      No, they shouldn't. And they don't, because that would take 4 hops.

      Suspect
      Real Estate Agent
      Daughter
      Mechanic
      You

    5. Re:Can we discuss the fourth amendment now? by negRo_slim · · Score: 5, Funny

      What if the fucking Real Estate Agent knows the same mechanic her daughter uses? Use your fucking head.

      --
      On the Oregon Cost born and raised, On the beach is where I spent most of my days
    6. Re:Can we discuss the fourth amendment now? by vux984 · · Score: 5, Informative

      Nope. The real estate agent is 1 hop. They pull all his records. The daughter is 2 hops. They pull all her records. The mechanic is 3 hops. They pull all his records.

      3 hops. The fact that the mechanic serviced your car will be captured, even though they never made the 4th hop to pull your records directly.

    7. Re:Can we discuss the fourth amendment now? by TWX · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That just proves that it's more like Brave New World than it is like 1984.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    8. Re:Can we discuss the fourth amendment now? by cold+fjord · · Score: 5, Informative

      You seem to have skipped over some key data.

      Terror watch list grows to 875,000

      As of December 2012, a factsheet from the center states, TIDE contained over 875,000 entries. Each one represents a known or suspected terrorist and includes all their known aliases and spelling variations on their name, the official said.

      Less than one percent, or fewer than 9,000, were Americans, including both citizens and legal permanent residents, he said, adding the center does not release exact numbers.

      That is a pretty small portion of both the US and world populations.

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    9. Re:Can we discuss the fourth amendment now? by Jstlook · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Let's even just estimate:

      Facebook says most people really only associate with 30 'friends'.

      Hop 1: 9000 x 30 = 270k people.

      Assuming that those people have associates that overlap the existing list somehow, we arrive at:

      Hop 2: 270k x 15 + 270k= 4.32 million people

      With a conservative estimate of the last hop only adding another three to twelve people, you're still talking between:

      Hop 3: 4.32m + (4.05m x 3-12) = 16.47 million to 52.92 million people

      --
      ---jstlook ---For that is the way of Elves, for they say both yes AND no, and mean every word of it. --- J.R.R.T.
    10. Re:Can we discuss the fourth amendment now? by Nyder · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Nope. The real estate agent is 1 hop. They pull all his records. The daughter is 2 hops. They pull all her records. The mechanic is 3 hops. They pull all his records.

      3 hops. The fact that the mechanic serviced your car will be captured, even though they never made the 4th hop to pull your records directly.

      And suddenly the mechanic becomes a "suspect" and they pull his records, and the peoples cars he's worked on records and the owners of the cars records.

      Rinse, repeat.

      --
      Be seeing you...
    11. Re:Can we discuss the fourth amendment now? by MikeBabcock · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Use your own brains -- the NSA doesn't know who its interested in in advance, so they collect as much information as possible to use in later analysis once they find out who might be connected to a person of interest.

      --
      - Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
    12. Re:Can we discuss the fourth amendment now? by Kielistic · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I would assume you are low-balling quite a bit as well. As theory goes 6 hops will get you to anyone on the planet. Continental United States is probably much less than 6 degrees of seperation.

      If I were a paranoid man I might consider someone in the NSA knew this and calculated the least number of people necessary to cover every man, woman and child in the US while making the number they're following seem "small" (anyone not connected within the 3 hops is already flagged for being "anti-social"). I'm not actually paranoid though and I figure it's just harmful stupidity.

    13. Re:Can we discuss the fourth amendment now? by ldobehardcore · · Score: 5, Informative

      Mod this guy up. The NSA may not be looking for you specifically, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be mad as hell that they're violating everyone's rights. They aren't torturing you at a black site now, but they could if they wanted to, because they have conspired to make themselves above the law.

      --
      Hectice, baby, Mercator says hello to you
  2. I think what's clear by DarkOx · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I think whats clear is that despite the apologists claims to the contrary; be they from the NSA, Administration, or Congress there was no effective oversize of these programs. Feel good political firewalls are not a strategy. Its a universal truth just about any information gathered will be turned to unintended ends. All it will ever take is some SOB come along and make the right excuses and justifications, creatively define a few terms and suddenly the laws governing the use of the data are meaningless.

    If we don't want our government to abuse this type of data the only solution bar them from getting it in the first place.

    --
    Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    1. Re:I think what's clear by GumphMaster · · Score: 5, Funny

      there was no effective oversize of these programs.

      Actually, I think this programme is demonstrably oversized ;)

      --
      Patent litigation: A doctrine of Mutually Assured Destruction... in which everyone seems willing to push the button
  3. It's 4.74, not 6 by cultiv8 · · Score: 5, Informative

    On the internet, it's 4.74 degrees of separation.

    --
    sysadmins and parents of newborns get the same amount of sleep.
    1. Re:It's 4.74, not 6 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The problem with your thinking is that the Dunbar number is limited by our brains. The internet and the NSA do not forget.

      Remember that guy who emailed you about that craigslist posting you put up a few years ago? No? Well, the NSA does.

  4. Congress is "angry" by SirGarlon · · Score: 5, Interesting
    The first paragraph of TFA is:

    The National Security Agency revealed to an angry congressional panel on Wednesday that its analysis of phone records and online behavior goes exponentially beyond what it had previously disclosed.

    If it's true that members of Congress are angry, that's favorable news! Maybe they can be persuaded to get off their butts and do something about this.

    --
    [Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
    1. Re:Congress is "angry" by sexconker · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The first paragraph of TFA is:

      The National Security Agency revealed to an angry congressional panel on Wednesday that its analysis of phone records and online behavior goes exponentially beyond what it had previously disclosed.

      If it's true that members of Congress are angry, that's favorable news! Maybe they can be persuaded to get off their butts and do something about this.

      They only thing they're angry about is the fact that people found out.

    2. Re:Congress is "angry" by cold+fjord · · Score: 4, Interesting

      If it's true that members of Congress are angry, that's favorable news! Maybe they can be persuaded to get off their butts and do something about this.

      If you review the Washington Times article it looks like Congress is of a mind to pare things back.

      Obama loses support for renewal of surveillance; NSA phone program will expire next year

      The lawmaker who wrote the USA Patriot Act said Wednesday that, as it stands, the House will never renew the provisions that the Obama administration uses to collect Americans’ phone records, meaning the government’s surveillance program will be cut off some time next year.

      Both Democrats and Republicans told top administration officials that they reject President Obama’s claim that the law allows the intelligence community to collect the phone numbers, time, date and duration of calls made by Americans, and they said Mr. Obama needs to change the way he is running the program if he wants to keep it intact.

      If they do cut back on surveillance it will probably be OK, for a while. Of course it won't just be surveillance that has been cut back. The Obama administration keeps killing terrorists instead of capturing and interrogating them which means a significant loss of intelligence information, and is one of the notable differences between Presidents Obama and Bush. (The reason: Obama doesn't want to be stuck with more prisoners and the messiness of trials. He doesn't want to use military commissions and the Congress and electorate oppose criminal law trials in civilian courts.) Beyond that, the Snowden revelations have already had the effect of causing terrorists to change their communications methods to avoid surveillance thus reducing intelligence even more. The combination of all three factors may lead to a significant loss of intelligence information.

      We'll see how it turns out. I won't be surprised if in the long run it turns out to be a riff on the old medical saw: The (intelligence) operations were a success, but the citizens died.

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    3. Re:Congress is "angry" by Guru80 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Of course members of congress are "Angry"TM, so "Angry"TM that they will make sure they let everyone that matters to their election know how "Angry"TM they are. They will even get all huffy and yell and tell the room they are so "Angry"TM and it isn't acceptable. Maybe even pound their fist and wag a finger all for the "Angry"TM dramatic flair....then go out for coffee and do absolutely nothing about it.

  5. This might be of interest.. by Shoten · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Foreign Policy had a fascinating article last month on how metadata analysis is used in terms of relationships between suspected "evil" people and known "evil" people. (The word "evil" in quotes to signify that for purposes of this topic, the definition of "evil" is unimportant.) The article talks about the challenges of fewer vs. more degrees of separation in link analysis; the new revelation that they go to 3 degrees throws it into even more perspective.

    http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/06/17/evil_in_a_haystack_nsa_metadata

    --

    For your security, this post has been encrypted with ROT-13, twice.
  6. "Admission" vs. Truth by CanHasDIY · · Score: 5, Interesting

    In a house hearing Wednesday the NSA admitted

    What cause do we have to believe them? They've been lying to us about surveillance for at least 8 years, probably much, much longer.

    Oh, right, we're just supposed to take their word for it, because they've been so goddamn trustworthy up to this point, haven't they?

    Fuck these pieces of shit. Disband their organization, and charge every single employee and contractor with high treason. It's the only way to make things right.

    --
    An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
  7. Guilt by Association by ttucker · · Score: 4, Interesting

    In North Korea, under the, "association system", up to three generations of a persons family can be taken permanently to, "a place to make a good person through reeducation", for that person's crimes.

  8. 3-hop was NO legal limit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The owners of Slashdot once again resort to playing down the extent of NSA surveillance and abuse. So-called '3-hop' mining searches were used to prevent agents being swamped with far more 'connections' than they could ever think of processing. Actual NSA personnel were free to examine the details of ANY individual connected at any 'distance' to a named target, whether that meant '3-hops' or 30.

    Here's something you sheeple should consider. You happen to be the neighbour of a target, and even though innocent, you have unwittingly learnt things of interest to the intelligence agencies. If the target becomes aware you have been interrogated or co-operated with the authorities, the mission against the target is compromised.

    No problem to Team Obama. If the target is important enough, you will be secretly arrested, subject to 'enhanced' interrogation just in case you aren't quite 'innocent', and then disposed of (as in EXECUTED) so there is zero chance of the fact of your interrogation getting back to the target. You are the cattle, and if putting you down serves the interests of your masters, no-one is going to think twice about doing this.

    Now true, dying this way is as unlikely as a major lottery win, but the point you sheeple should b aware of is that your life has no value whatsoever to those that rule over you. What they have done to millions of civilians in the Middle East, they'll do to you and your family just as easily if they deem it 'useful'.

    Now the NSA track your vehicle movements almost perfectly with under-surface RFID readers (license plate reading cameras are only used to associate an actual vehicle with the fingerprint of the RFID chips embedded in your tires) - now the NSA tracks the locations of each citizen perfectly via their cell phones - now the NSA tracks your network of friends and associates almost perfectly via the social Internet services you use - now the NSA is focusing on plugging the last few holes in their total surveillance grid.

    Google Glass, The Xbox One, and Bill Gates' child database service form a massive three-headed attack by the NSA against traditionally 'difficult' intelligence targets.

    -Google Glass is designed to eliminate the idea of a 'private' conversation, and ensure that most people self-censor most of the time. Self-censorship means expressing views that toe-the-line promoted by authority, ensuring that everyone thinks that everyone else is a loyal supporter of the police-state.
    -Xbox One gets the world's most sophisticated bugging system into the homes of millions of citizens. A bugging system so 'clever' it knows when people are having sex by tracking signature skeletal movements of the people in the same room as the console.
    -Gates' database system that tracks every detail of every child's life in the most intimate detail is the most disturbing NSA project of all. Gates provides high-ranking sex offenders with the best possible intelligence for safely selecting victims. Then there are the pre-crime aspects, and also the ability to search for the most useful sociopaths for recruitment into command and control positions over the sheeple. Not least is the fact that when you control the kids, you control their parents.

    Look, to the question "how bad are things in the USA today?", the answer is "as bad as they could possibly be, with the active intention of having the future very much worse if all the political plans of people like Gates pan out".

    If you don't want to be treated as cattle, you had better learn how to stop behaving as cattle. Rejecting all propaganda emanating from the mainstream media is a very good start. No one in real power has you best interests at heart. They didn't 20,000 years ago. They didn't 4,000 years ago. They didn't 2000 years ago, or 1000, or 500, or 200. Whoever rules considers those that choose to live as sheep as beneath contempt. It isn't right, it isn't decent, but it is how it is.

    You can't fight the NSA at a higher level, but you can fight them in your daily life. Reject all