Ask Slashdot: When Is It OK To Not Give Notice?

An anonymous reader writes "Here in the U.S., 'being professional' means giving at least two week's notice when leaving a job. Is this an outmoded notion? We've all heard stories about (or perhaps experienced) a quick escort to the parking lot upon giving the normal notice, and I've never heard of a company giving a two-week notice to an employee that's being laid off or fired. A generation ago, providing a lengthy notice was required to get a glowing reference, but these days does a reference hold water any more? Once you're reached the point where you know it's time to leave, under what circumstances would you just up and walk out or give only a short notice?"

Comments

When you don't want a reference

[Anonymous Coward]

No notice is probably the biggest middle finger you can give a company and still remain within the bounds of the law.

Re:When you don't want a reference

[noh8rz10]

I think if you don't give notice then it raises red flags for your new employer. You could tell your new employer you'll start in two weeks, then tell your current employer to eff off, and then take two weeks for yourself (unpaid). But industries are so small that why would you want to burn bridges?

Re:When you don't want a reference

[Jaime2]

Meanwhile, there are some employers who have fired employees for giving notice and their act of disloyalty.

That's generally a bad idea. If an employer lets an employee quit, there's no loose ends. If they fire the employee who gave notice, that employee is probably eligible for unemployment benefits. The knee-jerk "you're fired" could turn into both an insurance claim and possibly the employee becoming eligible for other company-specific benefits like severance, job placement services, paid medical, etc.

Re:When you don't want a reference

[peragrin]

Last Year I told my old company that I was leaving. I told the new company that I could start in three weeks(I figured two for notice and one to move).

Instead I was told wait in the conference for 2 hours for one of them to drive to the location(we were a satellite branch.) After signing a couple of documents they told me to leave and they would pay the next two weeks as the last of my vacation time.

Well I got three weeks of vacation(I played golf, had fun, partied a few times).

I think you should show your soon to be old employer respect and offer two weeks, just be aware you may not get it.

Re:When you don't want a reference

[HornWumpus]

You got fucked. They owed you the vacation time anyhow. Basically they told you GTF out and didn't pay you for your notice time.

Basically what you should expect.

You should give that employer a thumbs down if anybody you know ever considers working there. References do work both ways.

Re:When you don't want a reference

[Dishevel]

Being a good person is something that will always be good for you. Being an asshole because you can not see any immediate ramifications of your poor decision does not make it a good one.

Re:When you don't want a reference

[bobstreo]

I hope your also teaching them _wrong_.

That's called "Doing the Needful"

Re:When you don't want a reference

[UnknownSoldier]

Respect: It goes both ways.

Considering most companies:

a) have "Human Resources" (as if people are some resource to be exploited) instead of "Human Assets" where employees are viewed as an _investment_,
b) can fire your ass at a moment's notice (i.e. At-Will-Employment)
c) yet still expect the "common courtesy" of two weeks

Maybe companies should get over themselves and learn to treat their employees with equal respect instead of treating them like slaves and be dicks about not giving a reference.

Respectable thing to do...

[singhulariti]

I gave my 2 week notice last week because I have no complaints from this place and thought I should be considerate and tie up all the loose ends before I left.

Whenever you know they won't give you a reference

[ModernGeek]

If your employer isn't going to give you a positive reference, or has been negligent in their treatment of you or your fellow employees, then your two weeks notice is a privilege that they gave up.

2(Wrong) != Right

[CanHasDIY]

Look, dude, if you want to walk out, then walk the fuck out. Don't look to the community to justify your behavior; obviously you're not 100% convinced that not giving notice is acceptable, otherwise you wouldn't be posting this question, now would you?

Me, I give my two weeks, regardless, because I'm better than that. If they want to let me go then and there, well, that's their prerogative. I get to keep my moral high ground by not stooping to their level.

YMMV.

Layoffs have legal notice requirements

[Maxo-Texas]

If a large company is going to have a layoff they legally must give notice.

OTH, a friend of mine gave notice trying to be nice because she felt loyal to the company and was immediately fired.

Personally, I think if you give notice and they do not give you two weeks pay, then you should be able to be legally counted as fired. They can't both say you quit and ignore your two week period.

Just think of it as a courtesy.

[seebs]

Giving notice is a way to give people time to wrap things up -- make sure your stuff is handed off to someone else if needed, start looking for a replacement, or whatever. It's done to be courteous, and to make things less troublesome for other people. I was in a small department where someone just suddenly left one day; out of the blue, email telling us he got a job he likes better and is gone now. Which sort of sucked, because we suddenly didn't have enough people for the workload, and we'd had things like vacations and whatnot planned, and everyone had to scuttle around madly making up for things with no notice, and any recovery plan (like finding a new guy) had to happen on top of suddenly dealing with this. Which sucked. If he'd given us two weeks' notice, we could have done stuff like ask him to update/annotate work in progress so we knew what was happening, and started looking for people, and had time to discuss who was rescheduling what to make up the hours.

So it's a nice thing to do, and if you don't do it, people might be mad at you. Sometimes that might be okay. Sometimes you know they'll be mad at you regardless. Sometimes you just can't deal with someone or something a day longer. In which case, well. You leave.

Think of it like any other courtesy. It's there to make things more pleasant for other people. Usually, things like that are a good strategy because they make other people like you better, which makes them more likely to help you if an opportunity to do so arises. If I run into a job that I know a bunch of my former coworkers could do, and I know a lot of people are looking for work, I might try to put some of them in touch with the prospective employer, right? Well, not the guy who ditched out without warning, obviously.

As with all social niceties, it's somewhat cultural, and somewhat role-dependent. The importance of giving notice is wildly different between, say, the sole sysadmin at a company, and one of a team of thirty junior sysadmins, none of whom ever "own" any project, but who are just going through a series of small assigned tasks which are always done or handed off by the end of the day.

Burning bridges

[sjbe]

I think if you don't give notice then it raises red flags for your new employer.

If you already have a new employer then why would it raise flags? They've already hired you and (probably) have no idea what sort of circumstances you plan to leave your old employer under unless you have informed them and that would be pretty dumb to do.

But industries are so small that why would you want to burn bridges?

Sometimes bridges are worth burning. Not a good idea as a general practice I'll concur but if someone came to me and said I'll triple your salary, you'll work with nice people and you get to work 20 hours a week I'd consider burning a few bridges for that. I've also had the "pleasure" of working for a few real douchebags and those are bridges I wouldn't mind burning either.

Re:Burning bridges

[ShanghaiBill]

Both employee and employer should always leave bridges intact. You never know what the future will be. I have re-hired several "boomerangs" that left, found out the grass wasn't greener over the fence, and asked to come back. Unlike other new hires, they require no training, and often return with a new attitude, and new perspectives. I have also had many good referrals from ex-employes. Every summer we even have an "alumni reunion BBQ" in a local park to keep the network alive. Employee turnover is a fact of life. Treating it as a betrayal is idiotic. Just accept it and make the most of it.

Re:Burning bridges

[shentino]

You know how singing one tree can burn down a whole forest?

Bridges connect to bridges, and if you light one on fire, another might catch too.

Bosses have a good chance of being friends or colleagues in the industry.

No, it's not fair.

Sometimes people don't show. Plan for it.

[sjbe]

No notice is probably the biggest middle finger you can give a company and still remain within the bounds of the law.

I assure you it is not. There are much worse things you can do without breaking a single law. Doesn't make doing them a good idea but no notice is really barely better than 2 weeks notice. Businesses should assume people won't necessarily show up the next day because sometimes accidents happen. I've had employees suddenly get very ill and from the perspective of the operations of business that is really no different. If a company is really screwed by one person not showing up then management did a terrible job of organizing the workload and sharing important information and that is the fault of the company.

Re:No notice, no reference

[larwe]

You will get no *official* reference from a supervisor at such a company. However it is usually permissible for a current or past employee of the company in question to give a *PEER* reference. You see this on LinkedIn all the time even at companies with no-formal-reference policy. Not long ago, I quit a large company with a policy like this. It led to some interesting situations, e.g. person A is fired, resume-verifiers start calling supervisor-of-person-A, he can't do anything but refer them to HR, all HR will do is confirm dates of employment. Person A contacts some former coworkers at the same company, they agree to give him a peer reference, he is hired by his new company. The reason for the no-formal-reference policy is very sensible, by the way. If Fred lists me, a former supervisor, as a reference, and HR from his potential new employer calls me in my capacity as Fred's former supervisor: if I give him a bad reference and he doesn't get hired, he can sue my employer for poisoning his career. Has happened, many times. On the other hand if I give him a good reference and he does get hired, but turns out to be a total chump/drunkard/embezzler, his new employer can sue my company for having falsely represented him. Has happened, not quite so often, but cases exist. The bottom line is that there is nothing to be gained, and real downside potential in giving someone an official reference, for any company with deep pockets. On the other hand, a peer reference ("I worked with Fred and he didn't actually steal anything or set fire to a building while I was watching") carries no liability to my employer so it's safer.

Re:No notice, no reference

[DaveAtFraud]

...That's why I list my employers, but my references are colleagues I've worked with.

If I like the people I work with and want them to give me a good reference then I let them know what's happening before I go to amanagement. Usually it's your soon to be ex-cowrkers who will be the ones impacted by you leaving. Treat them with respect even if you don't respect the company. If management decides to walk you out the moment you give notice, there's nothing you can do about it but at least the people you worked with have had a chance to prepare for your departure.

Cheers,
Dave

Presume no notice will be given

[sjbe]

If I'm the hiring person and you don't give your current employer notice then I'll assume that you are a snake and will do the same to me later, regardless of whether I would need knowledge transition at that point.

You SHOULD assume that any employee might not give you notice. Sometimes employees aren't able to give you notice because they fall ill. Sometimes they get an opportunity and have to act on it immediately. Sometimes things just don't work out between the company and the employee. Plan accordingly. I run a small manufacturing company and I assure you that two weeks notice makes little practical difference. It's certainly not enough to find and train an adequate replacement and if you cannot gracefully transition that person's work then management screwed up bad. In my case that means *I* screwed up since I'm the boss.

The two weeks notice thing is nice and courteous but if someone is leaving without prior notice the first place you should look if you want to know why is in the mirror. I've walked out of jobs without any notice and I assure you that it was because of the unprofessional behavior of those I worked for. It doesn't necessarily mean they are a "snake" but what it does mean is that you have a poor understanding of what at-will employment really means.

How sure are you that you won't ever want the old job as a reference? I've been surprised at how well some older references have worked for me.

I've been in the workforce for about 25 years now. A good reference is NEVER a company. It is a person you know. It is impossible for a company to have a personal relationship with you or to know you. It is always a close colleague or someone I had a good personal relationship with who provided the references. Whether I gave two weeks notice or not has never once been a factor.

Giving Notice

[hduff]

Many years ago, I used to co-own a restaurant. A sous chef who had worked for us two years gave two weeks notice that would have him leave the day before Mothers Day for a "better opportunity". Since he was an employee in a key position, it would take longer than two weeks to interview, hire and train somone at his level. We asked if he would stay through Mothers Day (so just one more day and we'd pay him double time for that day) since we only had him and the chef (the other owner) to cook and it would place a huge burden on the chef. He declined.

It turned out that he did not have another job but just wanted to avoid working on Mothers Day (the busiest and most harrowing day in the industry). While I never gave him a bad reference (he was an excellent employee), he could not find a job in town because the kitchen staff talked about his day-before-Mothers-Day departure to their friends in other restaurants; they were pissed at him. He finally moved out of town to find employment.

MORAL: Leaving like a douchebag never pays off like you think it will.