Ask Slashdot: When Is It OK To Not Give Notice?

An anonymous reader writes "Here in the U.S., 'being professional' means giving at least two week's notice when leaving a job. Is this an outmoded notion? We've all heard stories about (or perhaps experienced) a quick escort to the parking lot upon giving the normal notice, and I've never heard of a company giving a two-week notice to an employee that's being laid off or fired. A generation ago, providing a lengthy notice was required to get a glowing reference, but these days does a reference hold water any more? Once you're reached the point where you know it's time to leave, under what circumstances would you just up and walk out or give only a short notice?"

Comments

When you don't want a reference

[Anonymous Coward]

No notice is probably the biggest middle finger you can give a company and still remain within the bounds of the law.

Re:When you don't want a reference

[noh8rz10]

I think if you don't give notice then it raises red flags for your new employer. You could tell your new employer you'll start in two weeks, then tell your current employer to eff off, and then take two weeks for yourself (unpaid). But industries are so small that why would you want to burn bridges?

Re:When you don't want a reference

[unrtst]

many employment contracts likely require minimum notice of termination as a condition which you must agree to

And wiping your ass with those contracts is probably the most useful they will be.

Unless you want to collect on your unpaid benefit time. Some contracts will "require" two weeks notice, and will pay out any unpaid vacation (and maybe sick as well) if you provide said two weeks notice. They don't phrase it as a tit-for-tat, but that's really what it is in most states (at-will employment, where they can legally fire you without cause at any moment, and you can walk out without notice at any moment).

AFAIK, parent post is absolutely correct in the strict legal sense - you can just walk out, and they can just fire you. Contracts do not trump those laws.

Re:When you don't want a reference

[Jaime2]

Meanwhile, there are some employers who have fired employees for giving notice and their act of disloyalty.

That's generally a bad idea. If an employer lets an employee quit, there's no loose ends. If they fire the employee who gave notice, that employee is probably eligible for unemployment benefits. The knee-jerk "you're fired" could turn into both an insurance claim and possibly the employee becoming eligible for other company-specific benefits like severance, job placement services, paid medical, etc.

Re:When you don't want a reference

[greghodg]

Depends on the situation. My current employer is in the process of outsourcing engineering to India, and keeping the US engineers on for varying periods of time (3-9 months) to facilitate the transition. There are incentives to stay through the end, but many have decided it's better to get out now. There is no bridge to burn, and people that are leaving already have new positions elsewhere when they resign. What is the possible incentive to give more than one or two day's notice?

Re:When you don't want a reference

[peragrin]

Last Year I told my old company that I was leaving. I told the new company that I could start in three weeks(I figured two for notice and one to move).

Instead I was told wait in the conference for 2 hours for one of them to drive to the location(we were a satellite branch.) After signing a couple of documents they told me to leave and they would pay the next two weeks as the last of my vacation time.

Well I got three weeks of vacation(I played golf, had fun, partied a few times).

I think you should show your soon to be old employer respect and offer two weeks, just be aware you may not get it.

Re:When you don't want a reference

[HornWumpus]

You got fucked. They owed you the vacation time anyhow. Basically they told you GTF out and didn't pay you for your notice time.

Basically what you should expect.

You should give that employer a thumbs down if anybody you know ever considers working there. References do work both ways.

Re:When you don't want a reference

[Dishevel]

Being a good person is something that will always be good for you. Being an asshole because you can not see any immediate ramifications of your poor decision does not make it a good one.

Re:When you don't want a reference

[bobstreo]

I hope your also teaching them _wrong_.

That's called "Doing the Needful"

Re:When you don't want a reference

[UnknownSoldier]

Respect: It goes both ways.

Considering most companies:

a) have "Human Resources" (as if people are some resource to be exploited) instead of "Human Assets" where employees are viewed as an _investment_,
b) can fire your ass at a moment's notice (i.e. At-Will-Employment)
c) yet still expect the "common courtesy" of two weeks

Maybe companies should get over themselves and learn to treat their employees with equal respect instead of treating them like slaves and be dicks about not giving a reference.

Re:When you don't want a reference

[Anonymous Coward]

I worked for a small company, reported to the CEO. I gave my two-weeks notice (per written company guidelines), and the CEO terminated me on the spot (basically to save paying medical benefits, I guess). Before I walked out that afternoon, I emailed a carefully worded letter to the CEO and HR, something with all the "in good faith" and "per written company guidelines" legal mumbo jumbo. No threats, just "I await your response." It read like I'd consulted an attorney.

Later, the HR director told me that the letter I'd sent had the CEO asking the HR director, "What do we do now?" Her response, "We? *You* pay him!" Which the company did, and I got two weeks paid vacation. A little later the CEO got canned. Karma, gotta love it.

Re:When you don't want a reference

[pla]

There is no bridge to burn, and people that are leaving already have new positions elsewhere when they resign. What is the possible incentive to give more than one or two day's notice?

I take it you haven't worked in IT long - Or have only worked for one, fairly stable company? Because you seriously ask what possible incentive exists in that situation???

Your current employer has outsourced their entire engineering staff to somewhere 10k miles away that speaks a different language and has an entirely different work culture. Put bluntly, can you say "ca-CHING" when the contracting hours start rolling in? Not a "maybe", they will realize they need some of you back on an all-but-permanent basis.

Believe me when I tell you this counts as quite possibly one of the greatest career-advancing opportunities you might have in your entire working life. Don't fuck it up because it feels good to tell your boss off.

Re:When you don't want a reference

[tlhIngan]

Not quite. They are obligated to pay you for the time that you work. That is all. If you give two weeks notice, and they walk you out the door and ask you not to come back, they are not obligated to pay for the rest of that time. Otherwise people would give 5 years notice when they think they are about to be fired.

At will is exactly that. You have no contract. You can leave when you wish, and they can ask you to leave when they wish. It's a capitalist's dream situation.

That's only in countries where employee protection is nil, usually because the employees are "too smart" to be in a union or lobby for other job protection legislation.

In most other countries, if you give notice, you are paid for the notice period even if the company decides to walk you out the same day. If they refuse to pay for your notice period, you can bring an unjustified dismissal lawsuit against them as you can treat that as being "fired without cause" and actually get more than what you would've gotten had they just paid you out. (Courts don't generally look fondly on dismissing people who give notice, and often such dismissal comes with severance pay).

Of course, the interesting thing I suppose is how people in the US routinely allow themselves to get screwed over - especially in the IT field. Think about it - in every other profession other than IT, there's typically on-call pay if you have to carry the pager, potential compensation for overtime (yes, even if you're salaried, a lot of places do compensate for overtime) and many other rights and compensation that IT seems to have given up. And we call ourselves "smart" workers. Hell, I'm sure some of the unionized employees at McDonalds get far more rights than we get, only because "we're too smart" and "unions are for idiots" and we let our own labor rights get eroded "because we're better".

Re:When you don't want a reference

[Daniel Dvorkin]

Not a "maybe", they will realize they need some of you back on an all-but-permanent basis.

They may realize it, but that doesn't mean they'll admit it, because that would mean admitting management was wrong, and one of the cardinal rules of management is that Management Is Never Wrong. Employees may be wrong, customers may be wrong, suppliers may be wrong, but Management Is Never Wrong. How could they be wrong? They've studied Management! They know how to Manage Things!

And they will hold to this even as the company collapses, because in the age of the golden parachute, there's no incentive to do otherwise. The company may go bankrupt, but you can be damn sure they'll loot every remaining penny from it before the end. And then go on to an equivalent position at another company where they can do the same thing, because the managerial class looks after its own.

Not that I've ever actually seen this happen, of course. The above is completely speculative. Yep.

No notice, no reference

[DogDude]

As an employer, we don't give references for people who don't give two weeks' notice. It's just common courtesy.

Re:No notice, no reference

[MightyMartian]

When I call to get references for a potential employee, I either get "Bob is an ace. Absolute genius. We're gonna miss him totally!" or we get "Bob worked here between August 2010 and July 2013."

While the former may not be completely reliable as to how good Bob is, just getting the latter tends to raise questions.

Re:No notice, no reference

[Guido von Guido II]

Like somebody else said elsewhere in the thread, nowadays that's all many companies do for fear of getting their asses sued.

Re:No notice, no reference

[Fluffeh]

Yeah, but when people are laid off, they might get walked out the door, but they are still paid the next two weeks wages. At least that is the case in Australia. Yeah, it's certainly not unheard of that folks walk into the office one morning and get told that they have been let go - but they are always paid their two weeks + entitlements that same morning.

Re:No notice, no reference

[rahvin112]

Many companies (I would wager every one of the fortune 500 and probably any company larger than about 500 employees) have policies forbidding any information whether good or bad. Judging the employee by the minimal response is a mistake on your part.

Re:No notice, no reference

[larwe]

You will get no *official* reference from a supervisor at such a company. However it is usually permissible for a current or past employee of the company in question to give a *PEER* reference. You see this on LinkedIn all the time even at companies with no-formal-reference policy. Not long ago, I quit a large company with a policy like this. It led to some interesting situations, e.g. person A is fired, resume-verifiers start calling supervisor-of-person-A, he can't do anything but refer them to HR, all HR will do is confirm dates of employment. Person A contacts some former coworkers at the same company, they agree to give him a peer reference, he is hired by his new company. The reason for the no-formal-reference policy is very sensible, by the way. If Fred lists me, a former supervisor, as a reference, and HR from his potential new employer calls me in my capacity as Fred's former supervisor: if I give him a bad reference and he doesn't get hired, he can sue my employer for poisoning his career. Has happened, many times. On the other hand if I give him a good reference and he does get hired, but turns out to be a total chump/drunkard/embezzler, his new employer can sue my company for having falsely represented him. Has happened, not quite so often, but cases exist. The bottom line is that there is nothing to be gained, and real downside potential in giving someone an official reference, for any company with deep pockets. On the other hand, a peer reference ("I worked with Fred and he didn't actually steal anything or set fire to a building while I was watching") carries no liability to my employer so it's safer.

Re:No notice, no reference

[alexander_686]

I had a co-worker who got a year’s worth of severance after only working for 2 weeks.

As soon as he was hired the company sold his division to another company and the company offered a blanket severance package to everybody who would stay for the 9 months to close. His supervisor looked at him, looked at the 6 month training schedule, and everybody decided there were more profitable things to do.

Re:No notice, no reference

[mschuyler]

Laid off means immediate access to unemployment benefits, no questions asked.

Fired/Terminated means the employer must provide cause for doing so. The onus is on them. If they just fire you "for cause" without giving a reason, then protest your unemployment, you'll probably win.

Quitting means you must provide cause for doing so. The onus is upon you. There are legitimate reasons to quit, including following a spouse out of the area, for example. But if you "just quit" and the employer challenges, you'll probably lose.

Depending on the state, employers can be "dollar for dollar" reimbursable for unemployment, i.e.: They pay the full cost. or they can pay a tax as a percentage of wages, with an "experience rating" that raises the tax if they do a lot of layoffs.

If they are in the latter category and you quit or are fired, they probably won't protest because it doesn't cost them one way or another. If they are in the former category, they have incentive to protest because they pay the full cost of your unemployment checks.

So, yeah, these little technicalities can make a big difference.

I worked for the Department of Employment security, Unemployment Compensation Division and learned the ropes, and also worked as a human resource person and learned the other side.

Re:No notice, no reference

[DaveAtFraud]

...That's why I list my employers, but my references are colleagues I've worked with.

If I like the people I work with and want them to give me a good reference then I let them know what's happening before I go to amanagement. Usually it's your soon to be ex-cowrkers who will be the ones impacted by you leaving. Treat them with respect even if you don't respect the company. If management decides to walk you out the moment you give notice, there's nothing you can do about it but at least the people you worked with have had a chance to prepare for your departure.

Cheers,
Dave

Re:No notice, no reference

[msobkow]

Laid off means you begin your 6 week waiting period before you start qualifying for paid employment insurance benefits in Canada.

Fired with cause means you are not eligible for EI benefits, and rarely happens.

Quitting means you aren't eligible for benefits, either.

But if you're laid off, you get your 2 weeks severance plus a payout of vacation benefits. If you quit, you're legally entitled to your vacation benefits. If you're fired, you're still entitled to two weeks severance plus vacation benefits.

Personally I like it when an employer decides they want you to leave now instead of letting you work the two weeks -- they're required to pay that two weeks in that case, because you haven't quit yet, so it's a layoff situation. Truth is, such layoffs are about the only vacations I've ever had -- normally my vacation time gets consumed as sick time due to my migraines through the course of a year.

Ah, to be employable again. Ah well. C'est la vie. 'tis migraine city for me.

Re:No notice, no reference

[mschuyler]

Yes, A/C, it is true. I worked for the state unemployment department. They sent me to school to teach me all this stuff, then laid me off. Very funny in hindsight, though I didn't think so at the time. It is, of course, vastly more complex than what I was able to post here, but what I did post is completely accurate. Naturally, I got quite a bit of unemployment out of the deal! :-)

Subsequently I went to work for the firm where I spent the vast majority of my career, and at one point was the Personnel Officer. This was a time when the unemployment rules were changing a bit so, naturally because of my background, I was tasked to figure out what we should do. We had to make a choice between becoming a reimbursable employer or one which paid 3.5% as a tax. I determined the former was better for us because we were fairly stable, and that should we find ourselves in a layoff situation, we should switch to the tax beforehand. By being reimbursable, we saved approximately 2/3rds, so it was a good deal for us. The firm still does this, though I am quite convinced they have no idea why they are or how they got there.

Later computers began to "get big," and once again, because of my prior interest and the fact I had one of the first Apple ][ computers, I wound up in IT, where I stayed 20+ years and wound up CIO. That kind of thing would never happen in today's world, but I was in the right place at the right time, so it did. When I retired we had 500 computers, 40 servers, and a 9 site WAN on fiber optic, a far cry from the single Apple ][ on my desk we started with. What a ride!!

To the other poster complaining about long hours for employees, meh? That wasn't the point of the topic. We were discussing the proper way to quit, right?

TL;DR Bottom line: If you get laid off, it's the employer's fault. If you get fired, it's up to your employer to prove you were fired for cause. If you quit, it's up to you to prove you quit for cause. Saying the right thing and making the right decision means dollars in your pocket--or not. Your choice. It's not up for argument.

Respectable thing to do...

[singhulariti]

I gave my 2 week notice last week because I have no complaints from this place and thought I should be considerate and tie up all the loose ends before I left.

Whenever you know they won't give you a reference

[ModernGeek]

If your employer isn't going to give you a positive reference, or has been negligent in their treatment of you or your fellow employees, then your two weeks notice is a privilege that they gave up.

2(Wrong) != Right

[CanHasDIY]

Look, dude, if you want to walk out, then walk the fuck out. Don't look to the community to justify your behavior; obviously you're not 100% convinced that not giving notice is acceptable, otherwise you wouldn't be posting this question, now would you?

Me, I give my two weeks, regardless, because I'm better than that. If they want to let me go then and there, well, that's their prerogative. I get to keep my moral high ground by not stooping to their level.

YMMV.

Layoffs have legal notice requirements

[Maxo-Texas]

If a large company is going to have a layoff they legally must give notice.

OTH, a friend of mine gave notice trying to be nice because she felt loyal to the company and was immediately fired.

Personally, I think if you give notice and they do not give you two weeks pay, then you should be able to be legally counted as fired. They can't both say you quit and ignore your two week period.

Re:Layoffs have legal notice requirements

[Tilgore Krout]

Very true. What most people forget is that when you are laid off you are normally given a couple of weeks or more notice, just that the company doesn't normally expect (or want) you to show up for those two weeks.

About 10 years ago I was laid off from a large company after being given my termination date about a year in advance. If I stayed on for the whole year (to help ease the transition of my job to several sites overseas) then I would get a rather large bonus for staying on.

Of course the last couple of months I was there I was bored to death since my job was already transitioned and I was just sitting on my thumbs in case something unexpected came up and they needed to consult me. I spent my days surfing the web, and doing job searches. When I had job interviews I told my boss and he gave me the time off to go to those. By the time of my exit interview I had a new job and reported to it that job that afternoon. I was able to pocket all of my severance and bonus for staying on until the bitter end, but in retrospect I wish I would have taken a little time off since I didn't take any vacation the previous year.

Just think of it as a courtesy.

[seebs]

Giving notice is a way to give people time to wrap things up -- make sure your stuff is handed off to someone else if needed, start looking for a replacement, or whatever. It's done to be courteous, and to make things less troublesome for other people. I was in a small department where someone just suddenly left one day; out of the blue, email telling us he got a job he likes better and is gone now. Which sort of sucked, because we suddenly didn't have enough people for the workload, and we'd had things like vacations and whatnot planned, and everyone had to scuttle around madly making up for things with no notice, and any recovery plan (like finding a new guy) had to happen on top of suddenly dealing with this. Which sucked. If he'd given us two weeks' notice, we could have done stuff like ask him to update/annotate work in progress so we knew what was happening, and started looking for people, and had time to discuss who was rescheduling what to make up the hours.

So it's a nice thing to do, and if you don't do it, people might be mad at you. Sometimes that might be okay. Sometimes you know they'll be mad at you regardless. Sometimes you just can't deal with someone or something a day longer. In which case, well. You leave.

Think of it like any other courtesy. It's there to make things more pleasant for other people. Usually, things like that are a good strategy because they make other people like you better, which makes them more likely to help you if an opportunity to do so arises. If I run into a job that I know a bunch of my former coworkers could do, and I know a lot of people are looking for work, I might try to put some of them in touch with the prospective employer, right? Well, not the guy who ditched out without warning, obviously.

As with all social niceties, it's somewhat cultural, and somewhat role-dependent. The importance of giving notice is wildly different between, say, the sole sysadmin at a company, and one of a team of thirty junior sysadmins, none of whom ever "own" any project, but who are just going through a series of small assigned tasks which are always done or handed off by the end of the day.

Layoff...

[MachineShedFred]

I've never heard of a company giving a two-week notice to an employee that's being laid off or fired

It depends on the size of the layoff; see: the WARN Act. I was once given a paid 60 days absence before the actual layoff because they were shuttering the division. Gave me enough time to get another job, and get home from my first day of work to find a FedEx envelope with my final severance check.

That's how you downsize with class. Or, by being legal.

A European perspective

[Teun]

I know the article starts with "Here in the US" so European stories could be off topic but will also bring some perspective.
Earlier this year our head of maintenance announced he was leaving in 3 months time and it was greatly appreciated by the management.
It was very professional of him (that other word in the article) and gave us time to look for a replacement.

Obviously it helped he was going to a totally different industry and he could not possibly be accused of helping the competition.

Besides, a typical European contract has a similar notice for both employer and employee.

Re:2 week

[jcwayne]

If you're referring to this you have an odd definition of "all companies" and should realize that this only applies to mass layoffs. Many layoffs are far smaller.

Re:If you're entering any position where previous

[vux984]

It's completely insane, and they missed out on getting a new COO because a decade ago the guy worked there & just gave a standard 2 weeks... And it wasn't discovered until they'd made the decision to hire him...

If neither party wishes to enforce that clause of the contract, and they both agree to ignore it, what would stop them from proceeding with the hire?

Absolutely nothing.

The fact is the company wished to enforce that clause more than they wanted to hire him. The contract did NOT force their hand, it was entirely their choice. Bottom line: the company your buddy works for is managed by idiots.

Places my wife has worked just have a blanket policy that they won't re-hire someone.

That's mostly a statement that:
  "Look, if you leave, we're not your safety net while you look for a better job, we'll find someone else who is looking to stay with us."

This is fairly common, especially at, I'll call them less desirable "tier 2" employers that get used like safety nets by the employees. The employee gets a job, works for a while, finds a better job at a "tier 1" company, loses it a few months later, and then retreats back to their original employer. A few months later they do it again. And its not just one employee doing it, but a chunk of their work force.

In reality, the policy is selectively enforced. If they really want someone, they'll hire them, policy or no.

Burning bridges

[sjbe]

I think if you don't give notice then it raises red flags for your new employer.

If you already have a new employer then why would it raise flags? They've already hired you and (probably) have no idea what sort of circumstances you plan to leave your old employer under unless you have informed them and that would be pretty dumb to do.

But industries are so small that why would you want to burn bridges?

Sometimes bridges are worth burning. Not a good idea as a general practice I'll concur but if someone came to me and said I'll triple your salary, you'll work with nice people and you get to work 20 hours a week I'd consider burning a few bridges for that. I've also had the "pleasure" of working for a few real douchebags and those are bridges I wouldn't mind burning either.

Re:Burning bridges

[linear a]

If you already have a new employer then why would it raise flags? They've already hired you and (probably) have no idea what sort of circumstances you plan to leave your old employer under unless you have informed them and that would be pretty dumb to do.

Sometimes bridges are worth burning. Not a good idea as a general practice I'll concur but if someone came to me and said I'll triple your salary, you'll work with nice people and you get to work 20 hours a week I'd consider burning a few bridges for that. I've also had the "pleasure" of working for a few real douchebags and those are bridges I wouldn't mind burning either.

1 If I'm the hiring person and you don't give your current employer notice then I'll assume that you are a snake and will do the same to me later, regardless of whether I would need knowledge transition at that point. You're talking a professional (knowledge) position here, right? 2 How sure are you that you won't ever want the old job as a reference? I've been surprised at how well some older references have worked for me.

Re:Burning bridges

[ShanghaiBill]

Both employee and employer should always leave bridges intact. You never know what the future will be. I have re-hired several "boomerangs" that left, found out the grass wasn't greener over the fence, and asked to come back. Unlike other new hires, they require no training, and often return with a new attitude, and new perspectives. I have also had many good referrals from ex-employes. Every summer we even have an "alumni reunion BBQ" in a local park to keep the network alive. Employee turnover is a fact of life. Treating it as a betrayal is idiotic. Just accept it and make the most of it.

Re:Burning bridges

[shentino]

You know how singing one tree can burn down a whole forest?

Bridges connect to bridges, and if you light one on fire, another might catch too.

Bosses have a good chance of being friends or colleagues in the industry.

No, it's not fair.

Re:Whenever you know they won't give you a referen

[CanHasDIY]

If the author works for a helpdesk in Louisville Kentucky that has a name similar to a certain muscle do yourself a favor and just get out.

Rock?

Venis?

Bergina?

Janus?

C'mon, man, don't leave us hangin!

Sometimes people don't show. Plan for it.

[sjbe]

No notice is probably the biggest middle finger you can give a company and still remain within the bounds of the law.

I assure you it is not. There are much worse things you can do without breaking a single law. Doesn't make doing them a good idea but no notice is really barely better than 2 weeks notice. Businesses should assume people won't necessarily show up the next day because sometimes accidents happen. I've had employees suddenly get very ill and from the perspective of the operations of business that is really no different. If a company is really screwed by one person not showing up then management did a terrible job of organizing the workload and sharing important information and that is the fault of the company.

Re:Why not?

[bobbied]

Having previously quit a job without notice... I can tell you that there ARE good reasons to do it. I would just caution anybody who is considering skipping the common practice to be very hesitant to actually do it. It might seem like a good idea and provide some emotional satisfaction to boot, but the side effects can be far reaching.

In my case, I was verbally abused and threatened by my employer without cause. This was part of a pattern of behavior that included not paying me as promised and infractions of labor laws. One day I got yelled at for an hour for something I didn't do. It was bad enough that I came in that night, packed up my stuff and left my resignation, keys and company cell phone on my employer's desk. Needless to say, they where really upset with me then.

I was justified but I can tell you the ramifications of giving no notice and ticking off a past employer can be far reaching. Future employers are likely going to be checking your past employment history, calling and asking questions. Most employers are careful and don't say much, but some (like the one I had trouble with) where more than willing to dish out dirt, true or not. I'm pretty sure it cost me a few job offers before I found out and it took legal action to get them to stop.

Why do I share this? As a warning. You ALWAYS want to leave in the best way possible. Don't give them a reason to say bad things about you because it may cause you issues with future prospective employers. . Give the two weeks notice, more if you can. As you leave, do your best to keep it positive, give them your contact information and offer to be helpful even after you are gone. Don't burn the bridges unless you *really* have no other choice. Where it might be a nice feeling to just pack up and leave with a "Oh by the way, I'm not coming back. So long suckers!" The negative effects on your future job prospects are hard to know. Don't risk it.

ALWAYS give 2 weeks notice.. Unless you simply cannot stay another day for any reason...

Presume no notice will be given

[sjbe]

If I'm the hiring person and you don't give your current employer notice then I'll assume that you are a snake and will do the same to me later, regardless of whether I would need knowledge transition at that point.

You SHOULD assume that any employee might not give you notice. Sometimes employees aren't able to give you notice because they fall ill. Sometimes they get an opportunity and have to act on it immediately. Sometimes things just don't work out between the company and the employee. Plan accordingly. I run a small manufacturing company and I assure you that two weeks notice makes little practical difference. It's certainly not enough to find and train an adequate replacement and if you cannot gracefully transition that person's work then management screwed up bad. In my case that means *I* screwed up since I'm the boss.

The two weeks notice thing is nice and courteous but if someone is leaving without prior notice the first place you should look if you want to know why is in the mirror. I've walked out of jobs without any notice and I assure you that it was because of the unprofessional behavior of those I worked for. It doesn't necessarily mean they are a "snake" but what it does mean is that you have a poor understanding of what at-will employment really means.

How sure are you that you won't ever want the old job as a reference? I've been surprised at how well some older references have worked for me.

I've been in the workforce for about 25 years now. A good reference is NEVER a company. It is a person you know. It is impossible for a company to have a personal relationship with you or to know you. It is always a close colleague or someone I had a good personal relationship with who provided the references. Whether I gave two weeks notice or not has never once been a factor.

Re:Presume no notice will be given

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been in the workforce for about 25 years now. A good reference is NEVER a company. It is a person you know. It is impossible for a company to have a personal relationship with you or to know you. It is always a close colleague or someone I had a good personal relationship with who provided the references. Whether I gave two weeks notice or not has never once been a factor.

I've had this exact conversation with many people, and they don't seem to understand that when you put previous employers on a resume, the only information they are allowed to give anyone that calls about your employment with them are things that are a matter of public record: the dates of your employment, and possibly any criminal charges that may have been leveled against you by them, though that last one they may actually have to get from a background check. It's your personal references that they will call to ask more detailed questions about your work history with them.

Giving Notice

[hduff]

Many years ago, I used to co-own a restaurant. A sous chef who had worked for us two years gave two weeks notice that would have him leave the day before Mothers Day for a "better opportunity". Since he was an employee in a key position, it would take longer than two weeks to interview, hire and train somone at his level. We asked if he would stay through Mothers Day (so just one more day and we'd pay him double time for that day) since we only had him and the chef (the other owner) to cook and it would place a huge burden on the chef. He declined.

It turned out that he did not have another job but just wanted to avoid working on Mothers Day (the busiest and most harrowing day in the industry). While I never gave him a bad reference (he was an excellent employee), he could not find a job in town because the kitchen staff talked about his day-before-Mothers-Day departure to their friends in other restaurants; they were pissed at him. He finally moved out of town to find employment.

MORAL: Leaving like a douchebag never pays off like you think it will.

Always be professional, Always give notice!

[bobbied]

When ever you can, do the professional thing and give the two (or more) weeks notice. It is always good to exceed expectations with employers. Go above and beyond what they expect or deserve. Always give proper notice, even when you don't want too.

I know it is tempting.. Man it would feel good to march down there and toss the resignation letter on the bosses desk and just say "So Long Sucker!" However, remember that this guy could be talking about you to some prospective employer in the future or you may run into him some other place. You may not know when or how, but it is *possible* his opinion of you may come around to haunt you. It's a small world. I had an issue with a past employer who got miffed it's not a good thing. I don't know how many jobs that cost me before I found out. Don't just hand somebody a reason to bad mouth you if you can help it because the world is pretty small sometimes.

I was laid off once, and I left my contact information with them. "Call me if you need anything I can help you with." They did call, multiple times. I helped them when I could. They didn't deserve it, having canned me, but I got good references out of being professional and helpful. Yea I was miffed at them for laying me off, but I was professional about it. In the end they realized that they had done the wrong thing and asked me to come back. (No, I didn't take the offer..) Proving that they made a mistake was WORTH the effort. I got lots of satisfaction in turning down their offer, but I still get glowing references from them... :)

Always keep it professional. Always leave on the best terms you can. Go out of your way if only to show them how a real professional acts. It may not pay off, but you never know when it might.

Not providing notice is rude?

[Cryacin]

Sir, a gentleman is NEVER unintentionally rude.