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Valencia Region Government Completes Switch To LibreOffice
jrepin writes "The administration of the Spanish autonomous region of Valencia has completed its switch to LibreOffice, a free and open source suite of office productivity applications. Last week Friday the region's ICT department announced that the office suite is installed on all of the 120,000 desktop PCs of the administration, including schools and courts. The migration will save the government some 1.5 million euro per year on proprietary software licenses."
But what's the cost in special training and support? Anyone got a reasonable number for the ROI?
... Microsoft would now say that they may be spending even more in support after the change.
Has anyone given actual numbers on that, yet? Anyone who has fully switched away from Microsoft Office and, after a few years, has numbers showing they spent less overall?
It won't just save it 1.5 now, it'll save that every upgrade cycle.
Mod me down, my New Earth Global Warmingist friends!
...that is starting to install both Office and LibreOffice on new PCs and reformated ones.
it depends on the From Version if they are starting from a nonribbon version of MSO then the training could be nearly trival.
as far as that goes has anybody done a Ribbon Interface pack for LO??
Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
But what's the cost in special training and support? Anyone got a reasonable number for the ROI?
Obviously another M$ fanboy trying to spread FUD
.
Guess it's pretty much the same, as with MS. In addition, it's easier to train locals to provide support and develop special features, required by users, thus boosting the economy.
as far as that goes has anybody done a Ribbon Interface pack for LO??
All I can think is: why?
which is totally what she said
What would it cost in special training if they instead upgraded their office 2007 to 2010 or 2013? The UI difference is bigger.
There are no reasonable numbers for ROI. There can't be.
Look at it this way. MS word 6.0 would have worked perfectly fine for the task. Where is all those billions going?
as far as that goes has anybody done a Ribbon Interface pack for LO??
One hopes not.
It sounds like a product made by sadists and installed only by masochists.
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
gets answers that actually work.
Much better than being charged by MS for being put on hold... while the help desk bings around for the wrong answer.
A new platform means you have to provide at least some additional training with the implementation. So, if that training costs you 1.5 m. the first year, then you've paid for the licensing within the first year (assuming regular support, upgrades, etc... are all the same cost). I'd guess that a 3 year ROI would probably be considered a good investment in the tech world. Much past that and you're playing with variables in a rapidly changing environment and you may not decide to move from your existing investment. The government (as in this case) may make prioritizing local economy boosts, but the corporate world may not place as much importance on it.
I use LO at the house and use Office 2010 at the office.
I use word and excel and have zero issues when I use LO.
What am I missing here? I realize that there are issues with formatting but beyond that its been smooth going between the two.
I don't think I am a power user though. I don't use any of the advanced features so maybe that's where the retraining comes in.
Otherwise it seems overblown to be claiming that it will take millions for re-training.
I never quite got this argument, I'll bet they have an internal IT staff that helps with MS office. I have never seen a large organization's IT department tell staff to call MS support.
neorush
$1.5 million per year over 120,000 PCs works out to $12.50 per PC per year. Is anyone else getting those prices for Microsoft Office?
I for one like software which is smart enough to put the menus I need in an easy place to reach when I want them. Beats digging through a "mega evil rats nest of doom" tree structure every time I do something routine (like adjusting error bars). Context sensitive is just smart.
No, obviously a reasonable person who might actually work in real life, unlike you. Fuck off kiddo.
Where is all those billions going?
Obviously not on better automatic grammar correction.
systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
What training?
Unless you are doing some insane thing with office (like complex business calculations - which probably should never pass near it), you will not need any kind of "special training".
Just use it as a normal productivity package.
I've hated "smart menus" for a long time. Usually you can put your commonly used items in a toolbar, and for everything else, you go to the menu. Every time you go to the menu, you need to click the expand arrows to see all the options (and these days that's always while looking for the option to turn off the expand arrows..).
which is totally what she said
Oh god how I wish I could do that!
"Sorry can't help, please call Microsoft"
"Sorry can't help, please call Adobe"
"Sorry can't help, please call Oracle" (fuck java updates, thankfully I built my own auto updater so now our employees can install it themselves even though they're locked down)
"Sorry can't help, please call Geek Squad as I'm too busy on Slashdot and Reddit" =P
I hate my job.
I like smart menus in some contexts btw, but they need to have a fallback that is logical. Like the start menu in XP/7 keeping track of your most commonly used programs, but still letting you see a full list of programs very quickly if you so wish. The fact that you can customise the icons on the main panel like in OSX and Linux docks makes the "smart" part almost irrelevant though.
which is totally what she said
This idea that moving away from MS will cost millions in training is FUD spread by MS to discourage such migrations...
There are many cases where upgrading to the latest MS offering is actually a more significant change than switching to an alternative, for instance moving from msoffice 2003 to 2007 is a bigger leap than going from 2003 to libreoffice as the user interface is entirely different.
In reality many such migrations have been performed, often with no training being provided whatsoever. Users are just expected to get on with it, and generally do.
http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
> Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$100.00 charge
FTFY
I found Satan's Slashdot alias! :)
I agree with you, to an extent. I like the ribbon as a toolbar - I hate it as a menu. Every function should reside in a fixed place, in a addition to having a context-sensitive toolbar. Why? Sometimes the computer guesses wrong. The ribbon also re-arranges itself depending on screen size and shape, which means an adjustment period when switching between laptop and desktop - or even when working in full screen vs. windowed mode. The Mac version of Office has both ribbon and menus, and it works just fine.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
Well, most of the users don't care what Office Suite they don't know how to use.
Training is actually minimal. The main boost is that documents can be saved and viewed without lockin to OS and office suit. It also removes dependency on Microsoft and might give a little boost to small businesses, that won't have to buy office and windows in order to communicate with the government, so that migration decision might make a lot of sense.
... guiding stars for the rest of Europe... ah no wait, they're not...
"Valencia Region Government Completes Switch To LibreOffice"
Orange you glad they did it? :-)
Simply switching to free software without making a substantial contribution (from an consumer point of view) is a very bad idea. These free software projects need money and developers too. Make a financial contribution to the FSF, projects, and buy free software friendly hardware from vendors whom are making a difference in the quality and level of support like ThinkPenguin.
And how much did they train for MS Office ?
(re)training is insignificant to the government compared to the savings in the long run. unlike businesses, (some) governments do seem to try to think of something else than instant satisfaction (with no regard for the future). I agree that this ROI argument is pure FUD - given the 2 competing software suites both fit requirements and are otherwise very similiar in difficulty to a newcomer. this (again) makes the retraining a 1-time insignificant expense. after that the normal training is exactly equal in cost for the two - but you still save money yearly on the free option.
This is different to the upgrade from Office 2003 to Office 2007 because of what? Migrating from Office 2003 to Libreoffice constitutes a smaller cost in training and compatibilty than the move to Office 2007.
So we should never, ever change anything, because the adaptation period is too expensive. If everybody had the same mindset as you, we'd still be living in caves.
We need Rob Weir to show up on this post and lament that Valencia is doomed, DOOMED, for using LibreOffice instead of Apache OpenOffice. Since he got howled off lwn.net and Ars.
This is a totally lame criticism.
Have you not heard of customized shortcut keys? They can beat the pants off any "ribbon" interface anyday.
In LO try Tools --> Customize --> Keyboard.
Or has MSFT got you so brainwashed that no alternative is admissible?
Nobody has to buy Microsoft Office to communicate with governments in the European Union. We have open standards laws forbidding governments from doing that kind of shit. Much to the dismay of Microsoft lobbyists and the officials in their pockets.
Increasing visible public popularity is actually a HUGE contribution.
Wouldn't it be nice if governments that adopted LibreOffice could devote a small amount of employee resources to giving back to the community. It would be a win-win, I think.
This is different to the upgrade from Office 2003 to Office 2007 because of what?
Exaaaaactly. It's like some people in /. have no clue as of the ridiculously unnecessary training costs that Office 2007 introduced. MS Office till v2003 set a paradigm of usage, an operational lingua franca of sorts that most people using MS products knew rather well.
It worked. It was fine, and people were efficient with it. There was no reason to change the UI paradigms considering that:
1 - MS Office 2007 did not introduce significant functionality changes, and
2 - the UI changes are not truly needed to use new functionality missing from previous versions.
In other words, fuck you Microsoft for violating the "if it ain't broken, don't fix it."
Migrating from Office 2003 to Libreoffice constitutes a smaller cost in training and compatibilty than the move to Office 2007.
Indeed as well. I'm not a LibreOffice fan, but I know that a person well-versed in MS Office 2003 can make the leap quite easily to LibreOffice.
The reality is that MS Office users have continuously been struggling to use MS Office 2007 and newer. Let us do a google for usage questions regarding MS Office 2007. That it was released eons ago (in internet years) and that people still struggle with it, that is an indictment in the whole UI change malarkey.
Companies are forced to waste money in retraining or in loss of productivity by users that have to constantly google for ways to do shit the were able to do with their eyes closed for over a decade. The whole counter-argument of LibreOffice retraining costs is completely bogus considering that you will have to retrain or lose productivity the moment you go to Office 2007 or newer.
Yes, I know exactly what you mean. My boss had a disgusting pimple so I had to quit to avoid suicide.
Drama queen.
What's wrong with conservation of utility in software? Familiarity is rather important to productivity, and major changes reduce productivity, at least in the short term.
We all moved to Office 2010 last year. While everyone is doing okay now, I can tell you right now that the first few months was just fucking awful.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
No, the costs would be one time only - you don't need to re-train the same people. As new people come in, training would be needed, but that's something that would be needed anyway.
No its not. They teach MS Office in school. Not Libre Office.
because it's open source, and a lot of really brilliant open source developers make really, really dumb UI choices.
You mean like how in Excel, when you want to insert a new line in your spreadsheet, you click on the 'Insert Ribbon'? Oh, wait. The Insert tab of the ribbon doesn't have an insert line selection. That must be because people almost never need to put a new line into their spreadsheet.
True enough, except that through FUD and phony 'open formats', Microsoft managed to keep most of its users on Office through the 2007 paradigm change - so the Office retraining costs ended up being incurred for the switch between MSO versions, and will be required again to switch to Libre. Maybe Valencia was smart enough to stick with MSO 2003 through their switch. If so, good for them.
Posted from my Android phone. Oh, I can change this? There, that's better...
I'm saying it tongue-in-cheek, but man, those are bureaucrats, there's no productivity left to be lost. If they'll be learning a new software package, that's like gained productivity, in all likelihood.
A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
Here's what I'm thinking: if you really need to train your workers in something as simple as an Office software package, maybe it's time to rethink your hiring policies. I mean, come the fuck on, that's the kind of stuff I dug back in elementary school, it doesn't take a genius, really (I'm not one). I was using WordStar and NewWord on CP/M machines back in 1st grade, and those things were, I'd say, much less user friendly compared to the ribbon. It takes a particularly behind the times troglodyte not to be able to look around for tutorials, youtube videos, etc. There's plenty of it, heck, the Internet is almost saturated with ribbon training.
A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
Ah, a gripe I agree with, although LibreOffice fares no better. I always end up adding a Cmd-Shift-I shortcut for "Insert Row" in Calc.
A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
I for one like software which is smart enough to put the menus I need in an easy place to reach when I want them. Beats digging through a "mega evil rats nest of doom" tree structure every time I do something routine (like adjusting error bars). Context sensitive is just smart.
But not that smart.
The thing that blew my blood pressure was when Office 2003 got clever with menus.
I'm used to printing via Ctrl-P command key. Office 2003 kept assuming I didn't use the File/Print menu so it removed it. Along with its binding to Ctrl-P. Half the time I went to print something, it didn't print. Because "clever" Office 2002 removed it from the context.
Unless your employees are inflexible troglodytes, that is. It seems to me that you get what you pay for, and if you don't want to pay for better workers from day one, you'll end up paying for various inefficiencies later, again and again and again. Oh, it's an office worker, we don't pay them to think. Yeah, so you'll be paying to think for them, and you'll be paying for training by consultants that charge more per hour than you earn in a day, ha. It's slightly beyond me how in this day and age office workers can't figure it out by themselves, say perusing the vast information trove that is Internet.
A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Donatien Alphonse François, Marquis de Sade, speaking on behalf of Leopold Ritter von Sacher-Masoch.
Millions of federal workers vent frustration and purchase a subscription to office365 due to irritation of using LibreOffice.
-News at 11.
--General Psych. most people believe that it is free that it is either inferior or something is wrong with it.
My frustrations is, maybe due to perception, but LibreOffice does seem to have the same power as MS Excel. I am curious to see what the results will be now that AMD is working with the document foundation on accelerating spreadsheet performance in libreoffice. For now though Libreoffice feels like PSPP. PSPP has a lot of feautures of SPSS but does not have all of them that I need. Same goes for libreoffice: It is nice and works in a pinch but just doesn't quite cut it when compared to word perfect or ms office. If someone would tell me how to enable blue background white text in libreoffice like in word perfect without having to change text and background color manually, that would be a start. I do admit though MS office has removed this feature from office 2007 onward much to chagrin.
Have you seen what people put on a resume? Everyone 'knows Excel'. I swear I even told the person interviewing me that they should put me in front of a computer before they hire me so that I can prove that I actually know what I'm doing. Of course they didn't, and apparently there's only like two other people in this whole office that know not to make formulas like =A1 + C1 + F1 + L1 + 18. So yeah, companies need to not only change their hiring policies but they need to actually check that people are capable of doing what they claim they can. The problem won't get fixed because the people doing the hiring are the ones who don't have a clue what they're doing, let alone be able to check that the new hires are capable.
I'm probably just temporarily dense, but what's wrong with =A1+C1+F1+L1+18? Yeah, you may want to put the constant 18 out there in a cell as well - is that what you imply? Or not using the SUM function? Or the lack of row or column locks ($s)? I'd be reluctant to generalize that such a formula is somehow always unkosher.
A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
They will now be teaching LibreOffice in all of those schools, not MS Office. Thus, in Valencia, no future Valencian employees in the government will require any new training.
Bearded Dragon
Pretty amazing I find out about this by reading Slashdot. Even more amazing that it happens when both governments in Valencia and Madrid are right wing. But it is pretty obvious that in this "European Union", the only use of a Spanish party getting majority, is in order to break the country. And to make sure they break it, they are forcing Catalunya out, and Scotland.... well, no, if Scotland gets independence is because now the Brithish pirates want to still even the kitchen sink (with good luck).
Please, double your prays for the poor people of Microsoft (I still think there should have been some trying to do things right), as they could be loosing their job (I wonder which other viruses will they make up, besides "text viruses").
This is one of the spanish regions with the highest government corruption. There will be no savings due to using proprietary software, as the same money will be given to the company that managed the transition.
Anyway, having people exposed to free software is good, even if the initial reasons were bad.
Uhm, the summary actually said they switched schools to it. You know, as the government you have the advantage that you actually get to decide what people are taught in school. Of course you can argue if it is good for your economy to force all businesses still using MSOffice to have to train people, but it sure reduces the government's training costs.
It may not be millions ( or could be ) but it will still be worth the change to be rid of the upgrade cost next year, and the year after.... Also training is a one time cost.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
But what's the cost in special training and support?...
From my experience in my business - 3/8 of stuff all (for the initial changeover from office 95(?), ie less than the training needed after a new version of office came out).
Since converting - a lot less than if we stayed with microsoft office (comparing our training needs to those of people who stayed on the microsoft upgrade treadmill).
It's NOT a conspiracy... it's a plot.
I'm from Valencia, so I was expecting some bullshit from our local government.
I'm glad they have switched to LibreOffice, but they still (and will do for ages) "export" their docs in MSOffice formats.
Try this search on google:
site:gva.es filetype:doc
Not to mention it's much better to spend that money in the local economy (such as training and support companies) than to see the money fly away to microsoft.
It's simple:
"Hm, how do you center a table entry, again?"
[Consults browser]
"Ooooo, look, ... shiny!"
Thanks. That's interesting.