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Concern Mounts Over Self-Driving Cars Taking Away Freedom

Lucas123 writes "Opinions in the blogosphere are building and run the gamut on self-driving automobile technology, but a survey supports the trend that most don't want their driving independence usurped by cameras, sensors and an onboard computer. The survey of British drivers last year commissioned by Bosch, a Germany-based supplier of automotive components, found that most would not buy a self-driving car. Only 29% of respondents said thay would consider buying a driverless car and only 21% said they would feel safe as a passenger in a self-driving car. David Alexander, an analyst at Navigant Research, pointed out that while driving yourself is often preferable, there's a lot of "grunt" driving that would be better handled by a computer. Navigant recently released a report stating that by 2035, 95 million autonomous cars will be sold every year."

30 of 662 comments (clear)

  1. As soon as the smart car counts as the driver by AvitarX · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I'm in.

    I would pay a lot of money to be able to drive distracted, asleep, or inebriated legally. Right now none of those are legal and one isn't even possible.

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    1. Re:As soon as the smart car counts as the driver by godrik · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Count me in as well. I do not actually like driving. That's a lot of wasted time for me. I'd rather do so many more things during that driving time. I could read all my commute time. Or even play need for speed! :)

    2. Re:As soon as the smart car counts as the driver by DutchUncle · · Score: 4, Interesting

      ... and while incapable (my wife had a cast on her right ankle for multiple months), and while incapacitated (elder relatives are OK in sunlight but not in rain or darkness).

      As another poster noted: As long as I can take manual control when I want to. But for law enforcement: It needs a mode that is PROVABLY un-take-controllable so that we can show we KNEW we were sleepy, inebriated, incapable, etc. and "handed over the keys".

    3. Re:As soon as the smart car counts as the driver by ColdWetDog · · Score: 4, Funny

      But us Americans want to look in control. Even if we're not. That's why we elect politicians.

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      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    4. Re:As soon as the smart car counts as the driver by cheater512 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Technically most of the bottom quarter think they are in the top half.

    5. Re:As soon as the smart car counts as the driver by ImdatS · · Score: 5, Insightful

      In fact, I wouldn't call it only 29%, but rather already 29%.

      The reason is that the discussion about driverless cars is so new/recent that I wouldn't even have expected that many people saying that they would consider buying a driverless car.

      My dream transport-solution is: (a) not owning a car at all; (b) call a car anytime I need one; (c) getting driven (automatically) to any place I want; (d) I pay for the time I use the car and can leave it anywhere in the country (obviously, in a village/town/city or so).

      If we had a system like that and everybody would use it, it could be the solution to most of our traffic problems, including congestion (cars can communicate information faster and react faster than humans), parking problems, and more. Most of the time, cars are just parked somewhere and standing idle anyway.

      So, yes, count me in...

    6. Re:As soon as the smart car counts as the driver by coyote_oww · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Me too. People are not actually reading about the vehicles. They are reacting to what they think the vehicle will be like, rather than what they actually do.

      My mom is approaching the point when we're going to have to take away the keys. She's fine for most things, she's just a bit indecisive, hesitant, and, well, wobbly when driving. Taking away the keys means she needs to live with someone, be given rides everywhere etc. Completely unnecessary when the technology exists *RIGHT NOW* to enable her to remain independent. Not allowing/adopting this seem just cruel to me.

      Guys! YOU CAN TURN AUTO-DRIVE OFF!!!!

    7. Re:As soon as the smart car counts as the driver by icebike · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Count me in as well. I do not actually like driving. That's a lot of wasted time for me. I'd rather do so many more things during that driving time. I could read all my commute time. Or even play need for speed! :)

      As long as it has a manual mode, I'd be fine with having autonomous mode available.
      As I progress more in my geezerhood I will probably yearn more for autonomous mode and less for manual.

      I like driving, but I like it least in the places I would also distrust an automated car, so I'm conflicted
      right there. (Traffic jams) Call me when autonomous cars can totally de-snarl bumper to bumper stop and
      go traffic, such that when the light changes every single car in the queue moves forward in unison.

      Till then, there are some roads that just beg to be driven, and they are not that uncommon.

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      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    8. Re:As soon as the smart car counts as the driver by wile_e_wonka · · Score: 5, Funny

      Then, of course, if I could also personalize the route with things like "please use scenic route", "use fast route", "use a county road", etc - it would be perfect...

      "Please accelerate out of the corners." "Please leave 40 feet of tracks when departing from the present intersection." "Please drop it into second and turn sideways in the next corner." [Vehicle reply] "I'm sorry; I can't do that for you, Dave. Unless you assist by pulling the e-brake at 3...2...1...now."

    9. Re:As soon as the smart car counts as the driver by gameboyhippo · · Score: 4, Interesting

      That isn't how statistics work. The one accident in 250k is an aggregate of a lot of data. It doesn't mean that it is expected that after you get to 250k and beyond you're more likely to get into an accident.

      To demonstrate if I threw a perfectly balanced die 600 times, statistically I should roll a one 100 times. However if I have actually rolled the die 500 times and have not gotten a 1 (highly unlikely but possible) it would be absurd for me to believe that I would likely get a one the next 100 time. No, for the next 100 rolls I should expect to get about 16 or 17 ones.

      For more information, check out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambler's_fallacy

    10. Re:As soon as the smart car counts as the driver by JustOK · · Score: 4, Funny

      ObamaCar

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    11. Re:As soon as the smart car counts as the driver by Dr+Max · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I agree i wouldn't want it to be the only option but being able to sleep on a commute to work, or have the car pick me up and take me home from the pub is a pretty damn awesome feature. Problem with the article's survey is, people are idiots, if you asked people back at the start of 2007 if they wanted a smartphone they would also say they don't need one, fast forward a couple of years however.

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      Rocket Surgeon.
    12. Re:As soon as the smart car counts as the driver by sahonen · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If routine commuting is "fun," then you're doing it wrong. Driving safely and efficiently is, and should be, boring as hell and I can't wait for it to be illegal to operate a vehicle manually on public roadways so I can spend my commuting time doing more interesting things.

      You'll always be free to do your driving for fun on private roads and tracks, but keep your "fun" off the roads that I have to share with you.

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    13. Re:As soon as the smart car counts as the driver by Daetrin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Er, isn't bumper to bumper stop and go traffic one of the things autonomous cars would be best at? It's pretty easy to figure out what to do in that situation. Every car moving forward in unison at a stoplight won't happen until all the cars are automated, but the automated cars will certainly be able to accelerate just as quickly as a human when the car in front of them starts moving forward.

      The reasonably legitimate concerns i've heard involve dealing with unexpected situations. You can see there's stopped traffic up ahead but the person in front of you isn't slowing down, you're on residential streets and a you see a ball bounce out between two parked cars and expect a child to follow shortly, etc.

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    14. Re:As soon as the smart car counts as the driver by wbr1 · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Speaking of the NSA, doesn't anyone remember the beginning of Stranger in a Strange Land? Ben gets in an auto-cab (yes I know it flew), and before he realized what happened, it was locked and he was whisked off to the authorities and a windowless cell with some bullies.

      Do we really want to hand the State Police/TSA/NSA/ATF/FBI that power? Or the power to take control of the car of someone unliked by the authorities and have it crash, due to 'equipment failure'?

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      Silence is a state of mime.
    15. Re:As soon as the smart car counts as the driver by devman · · Score: 5, Insightful

      He won't have to, insurance companies will do that for him. If self driving cars prove to be safer than manual cars insurance will adjust premiums according to risk.

    16. Re:As soon as the smart car counts as the driver by tibit · · Score: 4, Insightful

      There will ALWAYS be situations where the automation software can't cope with a particular scenario and you have to take the wheel in a split second.

      That will never be a viable option. It simply doesn't work that way. It's well known from aviation and industrial control rooms that if the human is out of the loop, it takes much, much longer than a "split second" for the human to get back into the loop. Sometimes entire minutes are not enough, I kid you not.

      The automation software has capacity to "see ahead", so to speak, and can and should get the vehicle into a safe state when it looks like a handover is inevitable. The split second taking over of a wheel is your fantasy, it's basically impossible unless you're paying full attention the entire time - at that point you might as well drive the car anyway, why bother with automation. If you pay any less attention than you would if you actually drove the car, there'll be no split-second handovers. I'm serious. You simply have zero clue what you're talking about.

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      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    17. Re:As soon as the smart car counts as the driver by mjwx · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I've never owned anything but 2x seat sports cars, I've never owned a manual transmission.

      If you've never owned a manual, you've never owned a sports car.

      You've already given up most of the control you have over your vehicle, I fail to see why you'd be hesitant to give up the rest.

      Automatics certainly aren't fun cars.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
  2. Amusing scenario... by PhantomHarlock · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Driving a manually operated car through a hoard of autonomous cars. Splitting two lanes, step on the gas. The autonomous cars detect your car impinging on their lane, so they move out of the way, and the sea of autonomous cars parts like a wave in front of you.

    They'll need a lot of algorithms to deal with the unexpected, and people who deliberately want to mess with them, heh.

  3. I completely agree. by SecurityGuy · · Score: 5, Funny

    I don't want to give up my driving freedom. Having seen how the rest of you drive, though, I want all of you to give up your driving freedom because I swear, I'd drive better sleepy, drunk, and texting all at the same time than some of you.

    Giving up driving is a price I'm willing to pay if I don't have to risk my life on your competence behind the wheel.

    1. Re:I completely agree. by MightyYar · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'll freely admit that I've made major mistakes behind the wheel, and I'm just lucky not to have encountered another car. I've missed red lights and stop signs. I've been fixated on a dangerous swerving driver only to ignore my blind spot. I've been so busy looking left that I missed a pedestrian crossing from the left. Shit happens. I'm human. I have no doubt that computers will someday drive more safely.

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      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
  4. Safety by KiloByte · · Score: 5, Informative

    Except that self-driving cars are already greatly safer than those driven by humans. If such a car doesn't cooperate with government surveillance, it doesn't degrade your freedom -- and as an useful tool, actually improves it. You can do whatever you want when travelling...

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    1. Re:Safety by DutchUncle · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If such a car doesn't cooperate with government surveillance, it doesn't degrade your freedom . .

      "If". Such a small word, to express so much hope.

  5. Insurance companies... by babymac · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Just wait until insurance companies start requiring automated driving. That is likely to be decades away, but I think they will be a big factor in the push toward driverless vehicles. The irony of this is that ultimately the need for auto insurance will decline dramatically once accident rates plummet. At that point I think we're likely to see auto insurance become the domain of the auto manufacturers rather than the auto owners.

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    "War makes me sad." - Me
    1. Re:Insurance companies... by Alomex · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Actually the biggest driver (no pun intended) will be people themselves. Think about it, do you buy cars where you have to brace yourself or do you choose the model with the automatically deploying air bags? do you buy the car with all manual brakes or the one with ABS? do you buy the car with manual headlights or the one with AUTO setting? Do you buy the car with manual radio tuning buttons or the one with SEEK forward and backward functions?

      Ditto for newer features. If you ever driven a car with radar activated collision warning (and if no response breaking) you would never go back to one without one.

      People will surrender their "freedom" (which in this case is a bullshit choice of term) for the safety of a car that drives himself, just like you, along with the rest of us, sacrificed the "freedom" of your ice box for a fridge that turns itself on and off. Come to think of it, that is the complete opposite of "sacrificing freedom" we actually stopped the slavery of having to feed an ice box by having a machine take over.

      Same goes for an automatically driven car. Al you are surrendering is your mechanical input to the machine. You are no longer a cog in the driving system. Yay for (real) freedom!

  6. The future of driverless cars looks like a bus by dj245 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    If I had a truly self-driving car, I would rent it out 23/7. My own personal taxi company. After all, I only need my car for about an hour a day on average. Maybe RelayRides will expand to accommodate this business model- I block out times when I need my car, and when someone books it for a ride, it drives off, takes them where they want to go, then comes back and parks in my spot. Or maybe I decide that since I only need a car for an hour a day, I personally don't need a car at all, and can rent one from the pool of public cars if I need to go somewhere.

    We might not have flying cars, but the driverless car is now a legal problem, not a problem of unreasonable expense or technological ability. We have the technology to build them now, and mass-produced, probably for less than $60,000 a piece. We also have systems for issuing commands remotely over the internet ("car, come here") and systems for renting of personal vehicles (Relayrides, GetAround, Lyft). It is only a matter of time before someone ties them all together and forces the law to change, or the law changes and the floodgates open.

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    Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
  7. Self-driving cars are liberating by erroneus · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's mass transit without the masses. Imagine your own personal bus, taxi or train. Mass transit is good for many people because it enables travel without so much stress... or at least without the same type of stress and certainly less danger. But among the problems of mass transit is the crowding and congestion which often accompanies more dense populated areas.

    I think having HOV lanes replaced with "Automated" lanes, self driving cars are likely to take you anywhere you need to go, respond to traffic problems by dynamically re-routing and generally even out the flow of traffic all over. Even if a driver decides not to participate in the use of self-driving cars, when there are enough self-driving cars, it will likely benefit the non-participants as well.

    One caveat is the fact that non-participants will see it as a license to be an even bigger asshole than they were to "other drivers." They would be bigger because they would drive rudely around machines which would, ostensibly, not be offended... (the passengers might though... imagine cutting off a self-driving car and how it might respond)

    There are probably a lot of scary scenarios which I haven't considered, but I recall batman movies and the self-driving batmobile and how that could be really useful. A car that will let you get out at your destination then drive away to park somewhere? Awesome... especially if you can notify your car that you are waiting to be picked up and have it arrive in a few moments. There's a lot of awesome there... and some scary.

  8. Overcoming the Fear of the New by organgtool · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This reminds me of when the internet was new and my relatives were amazed when I told them I did most of my Christmas shopping online. They couldn't believe that I trusted web sites on the internet with my credit card number and they said they had absolutely no interest in doing that. The very next year, most of those same relatives were raving about how convenient it was to shop at home and not fight car and foot traffic to buy gifts. The point is, people fear new things that they don't understand, but once they see the benefits and convenience of new technologies, it usually isn't long before they consider life without that technology as primitive.

  9. Driving Freedom Never Existed by wisnoskij · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Driving is a privilege, that you have to earn, and comes with a thousand point list of rules and regulations.

    You can only drive when they want, where they want, and how they want. So were is there any freedom to loose?

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  10. No, there's a specific freedom in mind here... by danaris · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You've missed the point here. They do have a specific "freedom" in mind here:

    The freedom to break the rules of the road.

    The people talking about self-driving cars taking away their "freedom" are afraid they'll no longer be able to drive 75 mph in a 55 mph zone, or run that red light, or tailgate that person who's got the sheer audacity to drive a few miles an hour under the speed limit when they need to get home to watch the game so close they leave paint on their bumper...!

    In other words, they're afraid that if everyone's got self-driving cars, they won't be allowed to be assholes anymore.

    Dan Aris

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    Fun. Free. Online. RPG. BattleMaster.