The Cognitive Cost of Poverty

An anonymous reader writes "It's a common trope that most poor people are poor because they're lazy or just inherently bad with money. But a new study (abstract) makes a fascinating find: being poor actually reduces your cognitive capabilities when thinking about money. 'In a series of experiments run by researchers at Princeton, Harvard, and the University of Warwick, low-income people who were primed to think about financial problems performed poorly on a series of cognition tests, saddled with a mental load that was the equivalent of losing an entire night's sleep. Put another way, the condition of poverty imposed a mental burden akin to losing 13 IQ points, or comparable to the cognitive difference that's been observed between chronic alcoholics and normal adults.' This makes the difficulty in climbing out of poverty much easier to understand. The researchers also demonstrated causality by showing that thinking about a very small expense led to no impairment, while thinking about a very large expense did. They confirmed this by looking at a group of farmers in India who tend to receive most of their income at one time — immediately following their harvest. Shortly before that payment, when the farmers had very little money, their scores dropped as well."

Comments

FTFY

[ThePhilips]

It's a common trope in USA that most poor people are poor because they're lazy or just inherently bad with money.

FTFY.

Otherwise, I have seen plenty of rich people who were also pretty bad with money.

Re:FTFY

[phantomfive]

But they must be good at something...if only at stealing.

Homeless people are good at things too, a lot of them. If you go out and talk to them, you'll find a lot of them have very good skills. I knew one guy who was good at construction (and management too, just not managing his own life). The guy could easily pull down $2000 a week, and yet half the time he was out on the streets. Why? Because he spent it all as fast as he got it. On booze, or horse races or in one particularly bad situation, on a woman. The money just burned a hole in his pocket.

If you talk to homeless people, you'll find that almost all of them have horrific money management skills, even though often it's because of psychological problems etc.

Re:FTFY

[ShanghaiBill]

I have seen plenty of rich people who were also pretty bad with money.

Rich people that inherit their money often manage it poorly. There is an old saying: The first generation earns a fortune, the second generation sits on it, the third generations squanders it. But rich people that got there on their own are pretty much by definition good with money.

My experience with poor people is that they don't see the connection between large and small amounts of money. They see the money they spend on a soda, and the money they need to send their kid to college as completely unrelated. They are unable to comprehend that by drinking water instead of three sodas a day, and putting the savings into a tax deferred education savings account, they can easily afford in-state tuition at a good university.

Re:FTFY

[MightyMartian]

In some cases, they're singular talent is knowing which family to be born to.

Re:FTFY

[Barsteward]

when you are living on the bread line, you tend to have a more short term attitude to things. So if they get a bit more money than usual, they will enjoy it quickly as a treat against all the other times where they are having a hard time

Re:FTFY

[AlphaWolf_HK]

My experience with poor people is so varied, because I've seen them all. I live around poor people all the time. I don't rag on them for being poor, but I know why they are and I know that they are also undeserving of handouts. I've seen those who are very stingy with money, and I've seen those whose pockets have a bigger hole than an opening.

They all seem to have a few things in common though: They have little incentive to pull in an income, and/or they really don't understand the concept of investment.

One thing is clear though: Handing money to poor people isn't the answer. It never will be. If what I'm saying weren't true, then lottery winners would stay rich after getting all of that money. They don't though, that money eventually runs out, and usually within only a few years.

Re:FTFY

[girlintraining]

They are unable to comprehend that by drinking water instead of three sodas a day, and putting the savings into a tax deferred education savings account, they can easily afford in-state tuition at a good university.

Or perhaps they comprehend it just fine, but they make a choice you disagree with: Like after working a 10 hour shift for $7.25 an hour, they would like to have at least a small creature comfort, so they buy a six pack of beer (or soda), instead of going home and enjoying tasteless and bland tap-water. The thing about being poor that everyone forgets is that everything that might relieve the boredom and stress of long hours for little reward costs something. It's easy to say "I'll save a few dollars a day" when you've got a fat paycheck -- but when you have nothing and you're looking to those couple of dollars leftover in your wallet, it's hard to say "You don't exist, go away". But psychology aside, there's still the troubling issue of your really, really bad math skills.

Let's analyze your example of "three sodas a day". For the 2012-2013 year, tuition costs for state residents at a community college averaged $8,655 across the country. We're going to ignore cost of living adjustments, peripheral expenses like books, lost wages, and everything else. We're going to take just that tuition number and that will be the cost of "easily afford" at a "good university".

The cost of a 'soda', which to give you the best case scenario, will be for one of the plastic 16 oz variety, which averages about $1.50 right now. So we're going to go with $4.50 per day being blown on soda. In 1,923 days -- about 5.25 years worth of not drinking soda per year of tuition.

Now, given the rate of inflation combined with the rate that tuition has been rising, it's safe to say that number will be higher. And when you consider that tuition is only perhaps 2/3rds of the fees you'll be paying... that number goes up even more.

Bottom line here is that your assertion that saving the equivalent of three sodas a day ($4.50) can buy someone a college education is possible, but absurd. You would spend half your working life waiting. In reality, you're going to have to save more to make it happen. Working a minimum wage job, you're only going to be pulling in about $36 a day (at best). Odds are good you'll be clearing even less.

You're asking someone for whom three sodas a day accounts for about 1/8th of their total personal income to save even more to make this do-able. You'd have to at least double, and probably triple, the savings rate, to get into college within a reasonable timeframe.

Frankly, when you take rent, utilities, and everything else into consideration... a minimum wage job simply cannot sustain that level of investment. Not unless you want to starve, rack up debt elsewhere (like late fees, bank overdraft fees, etc.) -- which will happen anyway when you're living paycheck by paycheck.

The bottom line here is that what these scientists is saying has nothing to do with the conclusions you and many others are reaching: Which is that you can "think" your way out of poverty, or that the problem can be resolved by simple mathematical ability. It is much bigger than that. All this study does is show that when financial resources become severely constrained, people are poor judges of how to best utilize those limited resources.

It provides no guidance on a viable strategy for emerging from that environment, and your flippant advice about simply not drinking soda is symptomatic of another, perhaps larger problem, that poor people face: Prejudice.

Re:FTFY

[BonThomme]

Not really, if you've met both people who've inherited wealth and made it themselves, the difference is striking.

Re:FTFY

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree with most of what you're saying, but as a single parent that's not doing too bad and who likes soda, this is a poor example.

3 sodas a day is half of a 2L bottle which costs me 88 cents. Drinking water means a savings of 44 cents a day. That's $160/year, split across both of my kids. $80/year/kid doesn't come even close to paying for anything school related, even for younger kids. And investing such a small amount at todays' rates which are darn close to 0% won't do anything either.

Re:FTFY

[RabidReindeer]

And then it's only a common trope amongst the right-wing ultra wealthy crowd. Many of which were born into money.

Sorry, no. It's also a common trope amongst the right-wing wealthy-wannabe crowd. Including the ones who are pretty damned poor themselves and will only be rich, or even well-off in their dreams.

Been "rich". Been poor. Poor makes you feel like you're jammed inside a tin can with limited options. Even if you're poor with money in the bank, but unsure when you're going to become rich again.

Money can't buy happiness, but it can buy your way out of a lot of everyday problems. It can also offer a buffer in case the way out turned out to be a bust and you have to try something else. When you have money you can afford to make mistakes.

In short, I already knew this firsthand.

Re:FTFY

[interkin3tic]

I think it's rare that someone is driven to the streets due to a single fault as well. People often assume that homeless people are lazy and that's how they ended up on the street, and if they would just care enough to get off the street and get a job, they would be off in no time.

I think it's comforting to people to tell themselves that were they in that situation, they could EASILY identify the problem and fix it in a snap. That way, they don't have to feel sorry for said people, and don't have to worry themselves about what they would do if they ever end up in such a situation. "Oh, I'd just not be lazy, and bam, I'm off the street."

In reality, I doubt that many people are homeless because of one single problem like laziness. Addiction often seems to be involved. I've heard from people who know more about it than I do that most people actually on the street are there because homeless shelters refuse to allow drunk or high people in. Such people also typically must have reasons they don't stay with friends or family, either they don't have them or they burned through them already. Few places want to hire people with no home, a record, no car, no recent job. And obviously there are a lot of homeless people who need psychiatric help, but after Regan, they're never going to get it.

Re:FTFY

[girlintraining]

I don't rag on them for being poor, but I know why they are and I know that they are also undeserving of handouts.

So you just don't tell them you hate them to their face. How noble of you.

They all seem to have a few things in common though: They have little incentive to pull in an income, and/or they really don't understand the concept of investment.

I don't know if you're aware of this, but public education was an idea that came from the working class. It was fought by the elite class for decades, despite popular support. Labor unions repeatedly shutting down factories and killing profits was what eventually created the federal mandate that public education be available in all states. After that, it was a fight to get blacks and minorities into schools, necessitating the national guard coming out to forcibly open the doors of schools in the South and allow them in. And now, higher education is being rapidly priced into extinction, and it is disproportionately affecting the working class.

So when you say "they don't really understand", consider the possibility that it's not because they can't understand, but lack access to resources that would allow them to.

One thing is clear though: Handing money to poor people isn't the answer. It never will be.

But handing money to CEOs "too big to fail" and banks so corrupt they put the entire economy in the drink for over a decade is? Why do you feel that it is more likely that hundreds of millions of Americans are lazy than that a few thousand of them are greedy?

Re:FTFY

[girlintraining]

ey are not making a choice. A thought pops into their head and

... and then what? If you asked them "Did you want to buy that soda?" will they say no? This is a choice. It may not be a good choice. It may not be a rational choice. But it is a choice. The article doesn't say they have no choice; I'm going to have to insist on a direct quote.

The 3 sodas a day example was not meant to be a tuition fund on its own - it is illustrating the lack of connection people make

I think you illustrated the lack of connection almost everyone has to statistics and probability. These are common cognitive distortions. Everybody has them. We value our own personal experience over direct observation. We are more afraid of what we don't know than what we do know. We are absolute and utter shit at estimating risk. This is the human condition, and I don't mean to single you out here; But being aware of these cognitive blindspots is the first step to managing them. I didn't say eliminate; I said manage. Everyone makes mistakes.

That said, you wrote what you wrote, and I'm holding you to it. You can apologize and say that wasn't what you meant, and that's fine -- but I'm not letting you change the goal posts here. You made an argument. It was a shit argument, and it died in place. Abandon it like a man and come up with a new one.

There is absolutely no basis for your conclusion. People can't think their way out...

Okay, I'm gonna stop you right here. You're moving the goal posts again. I said poor people deal with prejudice. That's it. That's all. And it may be an even bigger problem than the one under discussion. If you want to reply, reply to that statement directly. Provide factual and supporting evidence that poor people don't deal with prejudice, or at least that prejudice is less of a threat to them than this cognitive haze the researchers are asserting exists.

Consider that, and consider than soda is not the only extra people can do without if they really want to be financially better off. Consider the role of grants and scholarships, and do your math again. I'm sure you will realize it's not so flippant of a comment.

It remains a flippant comment. It may not be what you meant, but there it is, two lines up, staring you in the face and saying "I was a total dick back there, and someone called me on it." Man up to it. You can very probably come up with a better argument, possibly even one that is defensible, and supports your implicit belief that we shouldn't help poor people, with the followup being they need to help themselves first. I won't argue that belief. It's yours. Keep it. Honest. But I will argue with your faulty logic, cognitive mistakes, and apparent lack of empathy towards others whom you seem to implicitly feel are beneath you and morally inferior in some fashion.

Re:FTFY

[mc6809e]

And obviously there are a lot of homeless people who need psychiatric help, but after Regan, they're never going to get it.

This is one of those myths that just won't die.

Defunding of psychiatric hospitals generally occurred AFTER those hospitals lost patients that were allowed to leave after the Psychiatric_survivors_movementsuccessfully fought for deinstitutionalization.

Mental hospitals lost about 80% of their residents when those patients were given the choice to discharge themselves.

Re:FTFY

[hazah]

He feels that way because it's easier, it's convenient, and it places him above other people. Elitism is a funny thing and comes from the strangest of places.

Re:FTFY

[Teun]

This is a bit off-topic but your calculation shows us the issues surrounding a fair minimum wage.
Fair means to me your days labour pays for a day's life, not a day of suffering.
That day's life should include savings for later, including savings for the future of your kids.

If your income cannot support this your job is not only useless for you but to society as a whole, your boss/employer might seem to make money over your back but at the end of the day/week/month/year/life we as a society are stuck with a family that needs support to survive, forget about advancing the pool of society.

A fair and sufficient minimum wage might initially look like a burden for the company or employer but in the long term it helps us all.
A day's work that cannot pay for a workers life and future is by definition inefficient and in the longer term will cost us all.

Re:FTFY

[nbauman]

I think it's rare that someone is driven to the streets due to a single fault as well. People often assume that homeless people are lazy and that's how they ended up on the street, and if they would just care enough to get off the street and get a job, they would be off in no time.

There have been lots of studies of the homeless. The one thing they found in common was that homeless people had no social networks. When people have family or friends to help them, they don't wind up on the streets. The people who wind up on the streets are those who have no one to help them.

I remember seeing some studies that found that half the homeless were mentally disturbed, and the other half were alcoholics or drug addicts.

One of the surprising things they found out in New York City was that they could simply give people housing, without social services, without counseling, and most of them did OK. Whatever the underlying pathology, it improves things to give them normal housing. Homeless people resist living in shelters that are run in some ways like prisons, but they usually are willing to live in normal housing.

I think it's comforting to people to tell themselves that were they in that situation, they could EASILY identify the problem and fix it in a snap. That way, they don't have to feel sorry for said people, and don't have to worry themselves about what they would do if they ever end up in such a situation. "Oh, I'd just not be lazy, and bam, I'm off the street."
 

That's known as the fallacy of the just universe: "The world is just, therefore, if somebody is having problems, he must have done something to deserve it."

Corollary: "Therefore, I shouldn't have to pay taxes to help them."

And the explanation the psychologists give for that fallacy is pretty much as you describe.

Re:FTFY

[girlintraining]

I think it's rare that someone is driven to the streets due to a single fault as well. People often assume that homeless people are lazy and that's how they ended up on the street, and if they would just care enough to get off the street and get a job, they would be off in no time.

Numerous studies have been done and the overwelming majority are mentally ill or veterans. For some reason, watching people get blown apart by cluster bombs repeatedly has an effect on people's mental stability. It's the same thing with the prisons -- something like 86% of people in prison are suffering from severe mental illness.

But the Just World Hypothesis is what causes most people to reach a different conclusion than "We should help these people," -- and it's because if they admitted to themselves that they're very similar to these people and could experience the same misfortune, then it would also mean they are not, due to some intrinsic value in themselves, more deserving of success than the other guy is. It is, at its core, nothing more than a form of ego-protection. One that, unfortunately, has the side effect of condemning millions to destitute poverty, suicide, and illness.

Re:FTFY

[nbauman]

In New York State it was pretty clear what happened.

The institutionalized mental hospitals really were snake pits. They were badly run by incompetent, underpaid aides, and made their residents worse.

Psychiatrists found that the best way to help most of that population was to move them into supportive housing that was as close to normal living conditions as possible. It also made a big difference if they were living among friends and family, in a city for example, rather than off in an isolated prison-like hospital. A lot of these patients never should have been institutionalized. They were capable of holding jobs and functioning pretty well.

And there were new psychiatric drugs that helped with a lot of the worst symptoms of mental illnesses like schizophrenia.

Deinstitutionalization was very popular among liberal and conservative politicians, because it was cheaper than traditional mental hospitals. Their argument was, they would close down the institutions, and use the money to create community residences and mental health services.

But then, after they closed the hospitals, they didn't use the money for community residences and mental health services. They set up for example community mental health centers. But it was a lot cheaper for them to treat women with housewife blues than to treat schizophrenics.

So then these former residents wound up on the streets. Fortunately, the Partnership for the Homeless sued New York City, and then other cities around the country, to force them to provide housing for the homeless, as they were usually required under the "provide for the public welfare" provisions of most city and state constitutions.

There were a very few people who really did need to be institutionalized, because they were a danger to themselves or others. But we still don't have anyplace to put them. According to a recent New York Times series, those residences are still hellholes. Attendants were raping patients and kept on the job.

Re:FTFY

[sumdumass]

I don't know about a fortune but there are political groups that pay people to post comments favorable to their candidate or causes in forums like slashdot and attempt to moderate unfavorable comments out. I would assume that posting AC would be a way to not link your user account to a specific platform so it is entirely possible someone made a fortune posting anonymous annoying comments on Slashdot.

Re:FTFY

[nbauman]

I believe in the complete legalization of firearms, prostitution, drugs, and gambling. These are clearly things that the right supports, right?

Libertarian wing. Ron Paul Republican.

As John Dean wrote, the Republican Party made a decision in its Southern Strategy to go after the religious right, because (1) they weren't too smart and (2) they would vote for whomever their preachers told them to. The thinking was, their preachers are manipulating these dummies, why shouldn't we? I don't know what happened, but John Dean was there.

Re:FTFY

[Laxori666]

Oh my. There's just so many fallacies in your post. I just have to go through it and point them all out now.

So you just don't tell them you hate them to their face. How noble of you.

No, he said they are undeserving of handouts, not that he hates them. There are other reasons to think someone is undeserving of a handout than hating them. For example, you can observe that when a particular person in a rough financial situation comes into some unexpected money, they immediately spend it instead of saving it and investing it. You might even like the person. But that would be a good reason to think that giving them a hand out would not help them.

I don't know if you're aware of this, but public education was an idea that came from the working class. It was fought by the elite class for decades, despite popular support. Labor unions repeatedly shutting down factories and killing profits was what eventually created the federal mandate that public education be available in all states. After that, it was a fight to get blacks and minorities into schools, necessitating the national guard coming out to forcibly open the doors of schools in the South and allow them in. And now, higher education is being rapidly priced into extinction, and it is disproportionately affecting the working class.

So when you say "they don't really understand", consider the possibility that it's not because they can't understand, but lack access to resources that would allow them to.

Hah. You've actually proven why public education has failed in this respect. Public education has been around for a long time. If poor people today can't understand the concept of investment, and they are the ones that have been going to public schools, then clearly public education has failed in teaching the value of investment. I went to public schools and I didn't learn shit about investment the entire time there.

But handing money to CEOs "too big to fail" and banks so corrupt they put the entire economy in the drink for over a decade is? Why do you feel that it is more likely that hundreds of millions of Americans are lazy than that a few thousand of them are greedy?

Similar to the first point, he never said that handing money to CEOs "too big to fail" is the answer. You are attacking a point he did not make. You are talking to yourself. This does not make you look sensible. It makes you look like you have something to prove about your own preconceived notions and are not willing to be reasonable.

Re:FTFY

[tragedy]

your parent or parents should be putting away something regularly.

Well there you go. Poor people are clearly to blame for not having parents who save money for their education. Possibly for not even having parents at all. Stinking poor people!

Re:FTFY

[ChrisMaple]

One of the most effective ways to save money is to live with other people. 4 people sharing a small apartment means a great deal of money not spent, and sharing household duties means more free time.

Re:FTFY

[nbauman]

Well, I am not sure where there study group came from, but there is a tremendous amount of real-world examples to show that just giving money to people does NOT fix poverty. Don't believe me, take a good hard look at every big city in America for the last 40 years. The amount of money given to people in poor environments is staggering, and there is no real numbers to show that we have made a dent on poverty (by dent, I mean helped an appreciable percentage of people out of poverty).

The study comes from Science magazine. http://www.sciencemag.org/content/341/6149/976.abstract and if you click on the author affiliations you'll see that they came from Harvard, Princeton, U British Columbia, and U Warwick. The Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International Affairs is not a left-wing think tank.

They provided good evidence to support their conclusion that when people are poor, they're under stress, and they're less able to make good decisions.

Other things being equal, giving money to people does fix poverty. The most successful poverty program in the country, in terms of bipartisan approval, was the Earned Income Tax Credit, and it did move a lot of people into significantly less poverty. So did the food stamp program.

Over a time scale of about 50 or 60 years, black people started out in the south in terrible poverty. The federal poverty program by Kennedy and Johnson gave them more income. We don't have the same poverty in the south now that we did in 1950. One dramatic chart is of the reading and math level of black students, which climbed dramatically from 1970 to the latest data, according to the NAEP. http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/

I know people who worked in Africa with families who were living on the subsistence level. One of the successful things they did was give them cash. They'd give the families $10 or $20 and the first thing they'd do was pay their debts. Next month, they'd buy necessities, like furniture. Next month, they'd start a little business, like selling things on the side of the road.

Re:FTFY

[AlphaWolf_HK]

I personally know somebody who doesn't have a personal computer or internet connection at home, and last week they went down to the public library to play video poker online with the money they got from their social security check. I'm guessing they do this often because I'm not quite sure what the hell else they spend their money on other than cigarettes. I'm not even quite sure how they do it because as far as I'm aware the US has made online gambling difficult to do, but obviously they're smart enough to have figured out a way around it, so sheer incompetence doesn't explain it.

Personally I believe you can do whatever the hell you want with your own money, which at that point is theirs, but I think it would probably be a lot cheaper to just use half of one of those checks to buy a computer, pay for the lowest tier broadband connection you can get, and play league of legends instead of slots. Save the rest up for a vacation or something ffs.

Re:FTFY

[cas2000]

> So, they go down to occupy wall street bitching at a very
> arbitrary set of people (the top 1%, or the top 3.14159%, or
> whatever) about why their life sucks and somebody else
> needs to pay.

the fallacy of envy is complete bullshit. it's nonsensical propaganda pushed by those who don't want to think about how the world actually works, and by those who don't want anyone else to think about it. it's part of the same ideological blinker set that says there are no systemic problems, it's all just the fault of "a few bad apples" or "individuals making the wrong choices".

people aren't pissed off at the 1% merely because they own 99+% of the world's wealth and make 99+% of the worl'd income. we're pissed off because of *how* they do it, not just the fact of it.

we're pissed off because they're fucking thieves and parasites and when they steal trillions they then get a government handout of trillions more (all the while deriding welfare and social safety nets).

they are large-scale thieves in $10,000 suits - and far more damaging to everyone in the world than the small-time thieves in $5 kmart tracksuits.

Re:FTFY

[Teun]

By stating a fair wage would devastate your economy you just claimed something unfair is supporting people that are doing all right.

Jobs for which the employer can't afford to pay a fair wage are by definition a burden on society as a whole, you will be paying for the survival of those slaves, even if it is through increased unrest, crime etc.

In the mean time this slave driver employer laughs all the way to the bank.

B.t.w, as a European I fail to see a link between unionisation of fast food workers and doubling salaries.
Over here we have the freedom to unionise and no-one can either stop us or force us to join a union of our choice, meaning McDonald's workers could and do join a say (if it existed) a brick layers or white collar union.

Re:Strategy

[Proudrooster]

Statistically, there are two pieces of data that determine success in public education:
* Socioeconomic Status of the Parents
* Highest Education Level Achieved by Parents

The researcher Andrew Maslow in 1943 basically drew the same conclusion in his research:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs

His conclusion was is that if you aren't safe, fed, loved, and have self esteem that aren't going to be a problem solver.
Everything old is new again. I guess the new buzz words are "cognitive load" vs. "problem solver."

Re:If you're poor

[Desler]

If you're poor you shouldn't use a study like this as an excuse to stay poor.

Pretty much no one chooses to be or stay poor.

Re:If you're poor

[phantomfive]

Pretty much no one chooses to be or stay poor.

You'd be surprised. A lot of people just decide that the effort to get up every day and go to work just isn't worth the effort, so they go live on the streets. Really, talk to homeless people, it will be an eye-opener for you.

Re:If you're poor

[Desler]

I have worked with homeless people. Next to none of them were poor by choice. Many of them were poor and homeless due to being a couple of major causes:

1) Mental issues such as schizophrenia and kicked out of the institution they were receiving treatment from.
2) Addiction issues.
3) Some major bill came along that wiped out their money.

So if you want to claim that people are poor by choice you need to provide some evidence because all you have is an anecdote that doesn't match what I've ever seen.

Re:If you're poor

[Desler]

And to add to my previous post:

For persons in families, the three most commonly cited causes, according to a 2008 U.S. Conference of Mayors study (pdf) are:
Lack of affordable housing
Poverty
Unemployment

For singles, the three most commonly cited causes of homelessness are:
Substance abuse
Lack of affordable housing
Mental illness

http://www.pbs.org/now/shows/526/homeless-facts.html

Funny how none of the major causes are "chose to be poor".

Re:If you're poor

[sydneyfong]

I've never experienced poverty before, but to claim that pulling oneself out of poverty is a merely matter of determination and hard work, trivializes the situations in some of the cases, IMHO.

It's almost a version of "let them eat cake", just that in your statement it is like "let them work harder". Could it be that for some people they have worked as hard as they could, and still live below the poverty line? The fact that some people have done it, doesn't mean everyone can.

Nothing against your optimism and particularly a pointer to venues that might help, it's just something I wanted to let out....

Re:If you're poor

[Desler]

It trivializes the situations in a great number of cases. Probably the vast majority. Being poor is a vicious cycle that is not easily broken. Despite what people like the GP will claim the rags to riches type people are a statistical anomaly.

In other news...

[TheModelEskimo]

...children who ate a healthy breakfast did better at an IQ test than children who were beaten the same morning.

"Poverty makes you crazy"

[BenEnglishAtHome]

30 years ago I worked with a former social worker of long experience who had just changed jobs seeking a steadier paycheck. She said that poverty produced a constant stress over not feeling safe that basic needs would be met. Her view was that that constant stress often resulted in serious mental disfunction.

"Poverty makes you crazy...or at least stupid" was her standard rejoinder whenever we ran across someone who did something stupid with what little money they had.

From the Hierarchy of Needs, to my co-worker, to this new study - has anything changed? Not really. But it seems the relevant points need to be made over and over again because they just aren't getting through.

Re:"Poverty makes you crazy"

[CastrTroy]

I've heard of other stuff related to this. Children who grow up in an abusive or unstable home are basically in "fight or flight" mode all day long. They never get a chance to relax. A lot of these kids end up with symptoms similar to PTSD (post traumatic stress disorder), which is what soldiers or other people living in warzones usually get.

Re:"Poverty makes you crazy"

[fermion]

First, I read this paper yesterday and for a piece of social science I was rather impressed with the methodology. I think they took care to cover the variables and carefully limit their conclusions to what could be inferred fro the experiment.

That said, the media reports, as normal, tend to focus on the headline value rather than the research. Although the paper does talk about poverty, it is in the context of having to live in poverty, not being poor. From the conclusion
The findings, in other words, are not about poor people, but about any people who find themselves poor.
The paper specifically talks about providing scaffolding to those who find themselves with funds, instead of just expecting them to act like an average person with enough money. The authors call the normal methods of intervention as incurring 'cognitive taxes' and say that things such as "Filling out long forms, preparing for a lengthy interview, deciphering new rules," should be minimized on the basis of this research. T

So I think that just saying poor people make poor financial decisions, or variations of that, is not really what is being concluded. We all make poor decisions, even if we are well off. I buy pints on Hagan Das for $4 that I really do not need with money I really do not have. Other people lease a BMW or go out and spend huge amounts on wine. Even if one has money today, it is hard to justify these extravagances for a purely rational point of view. A person spending every penny the make is certainly to some degree irrational no matter how much they make.

Rather, I think that the research can tell us what happens to people when they become fiscally stressed. People who are pepertually in this state are certain a prime concern, and we must take any effect on cognitive behavior into account, but anyone in financial straights are going to be effected as well. In the paper they use farmers as an example, and attempt to show that better decisions are made after a good harvest rather than later when thing are less abundant.

Here is how I would think about it using an example from the housing bubble. At first, when times were good, people bought hoses to live in or rented as they could. They paid their mortgages or rent and all was well. At time went on, and their friends were living better, and they felt poor, these people bought homes or bigger homes, often with adjustable rate, interest only, or buble mortgages. At some point they actually did become financially stressed, as property taxes went up, or repairs had to be made, or interests rate rose, and they begin to make truly poor decisions, such as borrowing equity from their homes to pay for vacations, or beer, or fancy dinners, or a new BMW.

Now clearly these people did not make these poor choices on their own. They were helped, even prodded. Which is, IMHO, the point. Perhaps we should not have policy that tend to push people into worse situations. It may not really the homeowners fault that they lost their house if cognitive function decreases with financial stress. It may not be students fault that they have big students loans if the school took advantage of, and ever promoted, the financial stress on the student or parents.

Re:"Poverty makes you crazy"

[wbr1]

Perhaps we should not have policy that tend to push people into worse situations. It may not really the homeowners fault that they lost their house if cognitive function decreases with financial stress.

I counter with the fact that capitalism requires the opposite. In the search for profit, a corporation does not care who or what it exploits, even if it is a lack of 'financial smarts'.

In fact, I see this research being used by corporations to further target those with poverty related financial issues.

"Filling out long forms, preparing for a lengthy interview, deciphering new rules," should be minimized on the basis of this research."

In a way this is already what usurious, poverty feeding companies like pay day/title loans, rent-to-own, and 'everyone rides' used car lots do. They make it easy and quick, so you do not have to think about it. Then their customers get screwed.

Assuming about 25 percent deductions from tax, lets say a family of three with two adults works 60 hours a week at minimum wage. That leaves about $1125/month. Lets assume after a well budgeted list of expenses there is $150 left that is spent poorly with little going into savings. Now say junior needs oral surgery, and there is no insurance to cover. The dentist is willing to do it for $100 a month, so they think they can swing it.

All is fine until something happens. They are already living month to month, with little credit and little in savings. Then the car needs a transmission, or the mothers part time job disappears until she can find something else. They HAVE to have the care to get to work, they have to pay the rent. So dad does the only thing he sees as possible, gets a pay-day or car title loan. That takes care of things for a month, but now they are behind the curve and have one more bill. From here it simply spirals downward.

And no one cares. "You shouldn't have bought those sodas every day", says the middle class man. "You are just poor and lazy," says the rich man. "We don't want your welfare abusing, food stamp selling ass adding more burden to our taxes," say both.

Where does it end? Possibly with dad a drunk, or in prison for domestic abuse or selling drugs/robbery, junior in a gang, and mom wondering where her dreams went.

Re:Strategy

[clarkkent09]

Whats you strategy? 1) Kill them while they're young 2) If they somehow survive, give them more welfare 3) Increase taxes on productive people to finance the ever-increasing welfare state 4) Greece, here we come

Re:If you're poor

[phantomfive]

Stop suspecting things, go talk to homeless people and find out. I'd be interested in seeing what you find out.

Re:Poor people are poor because they're lazy

[killkillkill]

A common trope by rich people who worked their tails off and sacrificed a lot in the beginning, who are told that "their fair share" has to go to support people who spend their money on frivolous gratifications. I'm not rich yet, but I plan to be. I went into the SS office and half of the people there had out their Androids/iPhones. I am a guy who is pretty into tech, but have gone without a smart phone because the ridiculous price for a data plan isn't worth it for the instant gratification of checking my email between work and home. I go without to get ahead a bit only to be told I now have to subsidize those things for others. My wife and I spend $240 a month total on food, and that includes a couple date nights out a month. Getting fast food or whatever everyday would be so much easier, but I want to improve my place. The lesson in this: Be irresponsible and you get it now and later.

Though, most rich people still look past it and still care enough for humanity that even beyond their higher taxes they are also the most generous and donate a much high percentage to charity. Keep blaming rich people and buying beer and cigarettes (if you are poor) or big screen TVs and new cars (if you are middle class) and the greatest chance in the history of the world for social mobility will never be yours.

Same Story, New Data.

[lionchild]

This isn't actually really new news for some folks in the US. Public Educators have know this sort of thing in the form of other studies for many years.

For example, studies have shown that people who are low-income, tend to favor larger quantities of food. Middle-class/income favor higher quality foods, and when it comes to upper-income/class, they are more interested in the quality of the presentation of food.

We have long since known that low-income families have higher risks for needing additional aid in learning, because they do carry a much heavier mental/emotional burden than other families. They're constantly worried about if they'll have enough money to put food on the table, to keep the lights on, or even pay the rent. If low-income families first pay rent, food, utilities and transportation, they are in a completely different mental/emotional position than if they're worrying about one of those basic areas not being covered.

Re:If you're poor

[MightyMartian]

Because, of course, major mental or physical illness is a lifestyle choice.

Re:Cause Effect Cause

[MightyMartian]

I don't think it's going out too far on a limb to suggest you actually didn't read the article., the study and possibly not even the summary.

Re:Poor people are poor because they're lazy

[Desler]

Forbes 400 hardly encompasses the entire wealthy class of America. So using it to disqualify my statement is rather stupid.

Re:Poor people are poor because they're lazy

[RabidReindeer]

A common trope by rich people who worked their tails off and sacrificed a lot in the beginning, who are told that "their fair share" has to go to support people who spend their money on frivolous gratifications. I'm not rich yet, but I plan to be. I went into the SS office and half of the people there had out their Androids/iPhones. I am a guy who is pretty into tech, but have gone without a smart phone because the ridiculous price for a data plan isn't worth it for the instant gratification of checking my email between work and home. I go without to get ahead a bit only to be told I now have to subsidize those things for others. My wife and I spend $240 a month total on food, and that includes a couple date nights out a month. Getting fast food or whatever everyday would be so much easier, but I want to improve my place. The lesson in this: Be irresponsible and you get it now and later.

Though, most rich people still look past it and still care enough for humanity that even beyond their higher taxes they are also the most generous and donate a much high percentage to charity. Keep blaming rich people and buying beer and cigarettes (if you are poor) or big screen TVs and new cars (if you are middle class) and the greatest chance in the history of the world for social mobility will never be yours.

Keep planning. If you are lucky, life won't get in the way of that plan.

Re:If you're poor

[taxman_10m]

When one has very little money as is, the consequences of poor life choices are greatly magnified. Unwed teen mom from a middle class family. That's not an insurmountable obstacle to a successful life. Unwed teen mom from the inner city? Different story.

Soda saves me money

[tepples]

by drinking water instead of three sodas a day

I have a mental disability whose treatment requires stimulant medication. I went on Diet Mtn Dew (caffeine) at $1 per day to get off Strattera (atomoxetine) at $4 per day plus the cost of regular doctor visits to renew the prescription.

they can easily afford in-state tuition at a good university.

But would that cover textbooks, room and board, and the like? If you mean that the kids should go to school in town and live with parents, that would require the parents to spend even more to move within public transit range of the school.

Re:Soda saves me money

[vilanye]

Why not just buy caffeine pills and skip the fake sugar and other crap in Mountain Dew? It is funny how marijuana is so controlled and regulated but caffeine is not even a little bit regulated.

Re:Strategy

[interkin3tic]

I read a better summary of the article here (paywalled unfortunately.) The novel concept appears to be that self-control is a limited resource. You hold yourself back from buying beer you don't need, you avoid flipping on the TV instead of working, you force yourself out of bed to go to two low paying jobs... you're going to have less ability to say "no" to yourself than if you had bought the beer, watched TV, and only had one high paying job. If after that, you face the choice of getting drunk on a weekday, your rich self might be more likely to say "no," your poor self might be more likely to say "Fuck it, sure" and then be hungover the next morning and lose one of your two jobs.

The concept of limited mental resources isn't redundant with Maslows from what I can tell. If anything, this new theory would seem to be a mechanism that would fit into WHY maslow's hieararchy are important that was previously lacking. If you're homeless you're not going to be actualized, yes, but why? Because you've spent yourself worrying about your safety and have less mental resources to solve higher problems?

I haven't actually studied Maslow's beyond what your wrote, and am not a psychologist, haven't read the wiki article, but it does seem to be a more specifically demonstrated mechanism at least, and is definitely more complicated than you suggested

Re:5 years and compound interest = college

[girlintraining]

My dad grew up dirt poor, as in the floor of his parents. By making decisions like the soda decision, he ended up flying us on private jets when he was 40.

Unlikely. Anyone who's made it big in finances will, if they're being honest with themselves, say that it came down to hard work, smart decisions, and luck. Your dad may have all of those qualities you admire, but that's not why he's rich. He's rich because he had those qualities and was in the right place at the right time when an opportunity presented. Some people win this lottery early. Some win it late in life. Very many though never get a winning ticket, and so for them, it doesn't matter.

The cognitive distortion you have just used is what is called the Just World Hypothesis.

Re:Strategy

[nbauman]

That's true. Another person who said the same thing is Diane Ravitch, who was assistant secretary of education in the GHW Bush and the Clinton Administrtion.

Ravitch said that she started out believing in charter schools, high stakes testing and busting unions, but when she looked at the data, she saw that the main factor associated with academic success was family income.

She saw the data and admitted she was wrong. That's the sign of a scientist rather than an ideologue. Or salesman.

Re:If you're poor

[nbauman]

Depends what you mean by "choice". Of course nobody will choose poor if given a magical choice between being rich and being poor. But give them a choice of getting a minimum wage paying job, working long hours, giving up booze, drugs and cigarettes, living responsibly and saving small amounts of money on the side while looking for a course at a community college to improve their skills, studying at night while working during the day, then getting a better paying job and working hard at it. While you are right about mental issues being a major cause of homelessness, there are other issues involved and those include choices that they have made daily throughout their life, such as choosing an easy short term option (getting high) or hard (waking up early and going to a shitty job day after day).

That's a right-wing fantasy used to justify the present state of inequality by claiming that people can get ahead if they really try hard. Psychologists call that the "just universe fallacy." Here's a reporter who actually went out and found the facts (my summary; click on the link for the full story). And the Science magazine report fits right in with this.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/23/education/poor-students-struggle-as-class-plays-a-greater-role-in-success.html
For Poor Strivers, Leap to College Often Ends in a Hard Fall
By JASON DePARLE
Published: December 22, 2012
3 students from Galveston, TX, graduated 2008 at top of their class in low-ranked Ball High, were in Upward Bound, a college-prep program for low-income teenagers. All 3 got into college, but 4 years later, none has a 4 year degree. “Their story seems less like a tribute to upward mobility than a study of obstacles in an age of soaring economic inequality.”
"Each showed the ability to do college work, even excel at it. But the need to earn money brought one set of strains, campus alienation brought others, and ties to boyfriends not in school added complications. With little guidance from family or school officials, college became a leap that they braved without a safety net."
  Angela Gonzales went to Emory, but her financial aid got screwed up. She dropped out after 3 years with $61,000 debt. She’s working in her boyfriend’s furniture store for $8.50 an hour.
  Melissa O'Neal went to Texas State University. Her high-school boyfriend ran up $4,000 on her credit card and never got a job. Melissa got depressed, skipped classes, and failed some, but is now a 5th-year senior with an engineering student boyfriend and $44,000 in loans.
  Bianca Gonzales enrolled in community college to be near her boyfriend and dying grandfather. She finished her associate degree, and now works as a beach-bar cashier and spa receptionist.
Education is not an equalizer. It doesn't promote social mobility. The gaps between high- and low-income kids are widening. The role of class is growing. Growing incomes at the top, single-parent households, segregated neighborhoods, lower-quality neighborhood schools, and increasing college costs are responsible. So only the prosperous get educated. “It’s becoming increasingly unlikely that a low-income student, no matter how intrinsically bright, moves up the socioeconomic ladder,” said Sean Reardon,

Re:5 years and compound interest = college

[sumdumass]

This is the kind of idiocy that keeps poor people poor. Wise decisions with money can move someone out of the poor house just as easily as they can keep them in.

In the soda example, at 3 soda's a day per $1.50 a piece or $4.50 a day, if you were to open an account stating with $4.50 then add a equivalent of $4.50 per day for the duration of a month (about $135 a month)- every month, earning just 3% interest would give you about $38,457.00 in 18 years. That certainly is not a small number. But how many other choices are made that could equate to similar savings? Suppose that you could save the same amount per month by packing a lunch instead of eating at fast food joints and skipping a movie from time to time (135+135). This new savings gives you a total of about $76,907.00 in those same 18 years.

So while you will not be driving around in a Bently due to this savings, thanks to compounding interest, you certainly could be sending your first born to college or perhaps placing a down payment on a retirement home or any number of things that would make life much more enjoyable than a soda and BigMac might.

Help me chase down this 3%

[tepples]

You do not really have to pay all your costs of the degree up front the first year in [Indiana] do you?

No, but a part-time minimum-wage job isn't always enough for tuition, fees, textbooks, room, and board either.

Finding work that pays enough to save and live off of might be difficult so living at home during those years might be a necessity.

So you propose to eliminate the "room" and part of the "board" (meals). But this would require the parents to move within bus range of college.

the state appears to give the principal of the child's high school absolute power to veto a work permit

the school can also over ride the work permit

I think that's what I was referring to.

If your parents put the equivilent of $10 a week (40 a month) back and earned just 3% interest over 18 years

When I discovered that JPMorgan Chase was paying 0.01% on savings accounts and 0.35% on a 5-year certificate of deposit, I looked into other banks. As of right now, for example, Ally is paying 1.50% for a 5-year CD. Where are you finding this 3%?

Might be possible...

[jopsen]

College saving really should be a family affair. From the moment you are born, your parent or parents should be putting away something regularly. That something over the course of 18 years and coupled with one working themselves when they are of age should amount to a fair chunk of change.

I don't want to do the numbers, that's hard :)

And we probably make numbers that says both things... In any event for this plan to succeed you need not to have any unexpected problems.
Medical issues, job issues, loss of spouse, disability, car accident, really any form of bad luck...

And when that's done, you need to be perfect... Meaning you can't make any mistakes, sign a bad contract, buy Christmas presents, go on a vacation or just pop a soda...
Please don't tell me you want people to be perfect, nobody is perfect, I know sodas are bad, but I pop one every now and then anyways...

The difference between me a poor person is that if I make a financial mistake, sign a contract on a phone, apartment, TV, cable...
Then it might cost me a lot of money, I'll be pissed, I'll feel stupid, I'll learn, but fees and interest won't land me in bottomless dept.
A poor person who sign a bad contract for an phone will likely end up in bottomless dept, considering late-payment fees, interest, etc.

Re:5 years and compound interest = college

[tragedy]

My baby will be born soon. If I drop the soda money into a Roth for five years, that's one year of tuition. I then stop saving. In seven years, the investment doubles. In another seven, it doubles again

So you'll be getting greater than 10% interest consistently over the course of decades. If you want to be realistic about inflation, you'd actually have to be doing better than about 13% interest. Then there's the fact that college costs are rising faster than inflation... Just doesn't sound realistic.

because 8.5% - inflation - conservative estimate

[raymorris]

Over the last 80 years or so, and over any 20 year period, the market has averaged about 8.5%. That's what you'd expect from a boring old index mutual fund. Subtract inflation and that leaves about 4%. Though it'll be close to 4% / year for any 20 year period, the period that matters to you may be a particularly bad one, so figure 3% to be on the safe side. (Or equaliventally use a hedge or other guarantee to lock in 3%).

wouldn't you love to be wrong

[raymorris]

my dad worked overtime scrubbing toilets while going to college. that shows his dedication to hard work and learning. he was the kind of guy you want on your team. Most Americans would choose unemployment before they would scrub toilets. About 15% of Americans don't work. They "can't" find a job, or "can't" work because they are "disabled", though they can still build themselves a new deck. So they sour around complaining that they're not lucky. Guess how often my dad the janitor couldn't find a job, no job at all?

You have a very hard choice to make. So long as your life is the result of luck, or of what the illuminati decide or whatever, you have an excuse, but you're SCREWED. You can't change THEM. The moment you decide that your life is of your own making, you can have any life you want, but you're accepting your responsibility to.

I prefer a solution rather than an excuse .

Re:wouldn't you love to be wrong

[girlintraining]

my dad worked overtime scrubbing toilets while going to college. that shows his dedication to hard work and learning. he was the kind of guy you want on your team.

Admirable qualities, but the example is one of personal experience, not the larger truth most people out there are experiencing today. There are only a very few opportunities out there, a lottery of sorts. You can increase your chances through hard work, dedication, virtue -- but your chances of getting a winning ticket remain very low. The middle class is collapsing, and no amount of father-worship can change that.

Most Americans would choose unemployment before they would scrub toilets.

Perhaps that is because unemployment pays better. Right now, if I lost my job, I would earn more on unemployment than working full time at minimum wage. Whether this fits with your worldview of what is fair or not is largely irrelevant. I'm better off remaining unemployed and dedicating my energy to finding employment that pays better than unemployment. Many people are similarly situated.

About 15% of Americans don't work. They "can't" find a job, or "can't" work because they are "disabled", though they can still build themselves a new deck.

Many people are physically disabled but mentally intact -- I understand Stephen Hawking was one such person, and he made considerable contributions to the field of science. He had cerebral palsy however and would die in very short order without the assistance of others. There are others who suffer from schizophrenia, traumatic brain injury, etc., who are perfectly capable of building themselves a deck... but their reality and ability to relate to others is so limited or out of sync with yours and mine they cannot hope to maintain employment.

Your arrogance in assuming these things shows a remarkable lack of understanding of the realities others face. It shows contempt for those less fortunate than you, and it shows a lack of empathy and compassion that is often indicative of clinical narcissism or sociopathy.

So they sour around complaining that they're not lucky. Guess how often my dad the janitor couldn't find a job, no job at all?

Your dad is fortunate to be able to find work. I think if you left the house once and awhile and went out amongst the people who are on the streets, in the shelters, who come to church for the soup kitchen, have searched for work, long and hard. They have searched for any kind of work. But very often, they're mentally ill. Many, perhaps half of them, are former veterans. These are men and women who were considered physically fit enough to carry hundred pound sacks of equipment across the desert and unleash hell on our enemies... but having to shovel their friends remains into a bag, or watching a cluster bomb turn people into hamburger spray takes its toll. Many of the people you spit on aren't employable because they carried burdens far beyond that of your toilet-scrubbing father. And many of them could be employable if it wasn't for people like your toilet-scrubbing father's children.

You have a very hard choice to make.

No, it's not a hard choice to make. I choose to have compassion, and I know that it's the one thing that'll dig us all out of the mess we're in. We're in this together. The disabled veteran, the unemployed black woman, the new immigrant escaping the violence of their homeland -- they're part of my community. They're my people. And they deserve the help they need to get back on their feet and make a contribution.

I'm not a narcissistic bastard like you. I'm not here for just myself, and I don't talk about my virtues as though they're a license to mistreat and look down on others. I'm working a job right now earning $34 an hour. On the weekends, I volunteer to drive people who have AIDS to the grocery store, to doctor's visits, etc. I'm active with Planned Parenthood -- because I be

Re:wouldn't you love to be wrong

[bogjobber]

Hey, there! I don't know your dad, but I also grew up poor and am currently working my way through school.

First of all, you are correct to be proud of your father, and you are also correct to take a responsible outlook on your life. That sort of attitude will get you far. But you really just aren't grasping the arguments people are putting out to you. Hopefully my perspective is helpful for you to understand why people are disagreeing with you.

Let me break down my budget for you. I currently make $13/hr. After taxes and health insurance (which I am fortunate to get an an affordable rate from my company) I bring in $1600 net every month.

I am very fortunate in that my work provides a free place for me to live. Therefore I do not have to worry about rent or utilities, which is a huge boon. I am also very fortunate to live in an area with a very affordable community college. The tuition and books every semester runs me around $2000. Going three semesters a year, this comes out to almost exactly $500 a month. Food costs me about $150.

My community college is about 25 miles away from where I work and live, so I have to drive a lot. I spend about $200 a month on gasoline, $100 on insurance, and $150 on my auto payment. Should have saved up and bought a cheaper car cash you might say? Well, I had a cheap, reliable car. Someone t-boned me and ruined it. I got $2500 for it, but you can't buy a reliable car for $2500 so I had to take out a loan to cover the other $4000 I spent. So there was step one pushing me into a shitty situation.

Out of the $500 that is left over, most goes to service my consumer debt, of which I have about $4000. Again, you might criticize me for using credit unwisely but I can assure you that nearly all of that was imperative. I have only had free rent for less than a year, meaning my budget was inadequate in the past and I financed car repairs, medical bills, anything unexpected and unavoidable on credit. Because I literally had no other choice. Each of these situations has, in the past, caused me to stop going to school for a short time while I got my finances together, which included me working multiple jobs at the same time. Never janitorial, but some pretty shitty work nonetheless.

So here I am, 26 years old, and I'm working my ass off 40+ hours a week on top of going to school full time trying to make it happen. And it will happen. But I will not finish school before I'm 30, even in the best case scenario. I probably won't be out of debt until a few years after that (once I hit university tuition jumps to $10k+ a year for a couple years and I will almost definitely have to stop working so much in order to succeed, meaning large student loans). The idea that I could be flying around in a Learjet if I only I bucked up and worked a bit harder, or that I could pay for my tuition by giving up soda is so fucking ludicrous that it's hard to even take you seriously.

You known how I can tell you don't have any perspective? You haven't said a single thing about yourself. It's all "My dad did this" or "my dad did that." You obviously had a father who kicked ass and did very well by himself, and I don't mean to discount that, but what about you? Do you really think that if you were born poor and to lazy ass parents that you would be in the exact same place you are right now? Think of every dumb mistake you have ever made. Every time you made a poor decision and it somehow worked out ok for you. There is somebody out there that made that same decision and had it blow up in their face. There's somebody who wasn't given the opportunities you were and is having to scrap it out tooth and nail. Be grateful for how fortunate you have been, and don't patronize them with stupid ass arguments about giving up soda and paying for university tuition with the difference (I don't drink soda FWIW).

Re:5 years and compound interest = college

[sumdumass]

Listen, I know people who can manage on $400 a week a lot more comfortably then I was at $600 a week when I had medical problems. Our fixed expenses were about the same (rent was the same, cars are paid for), they just made better decisions then I did. This isn't about moral decisions, it is about prudent decisions that can improve the financial quality of life. I have a good portion of my income that I had no idea where it was being spent. I went joyriding in the car when gas was at $5 a gallon, I hit the bars and partied it up, I spent money on fast food and junk food, cigarettes and snuff, and the occasional woman. When I decided to cut a lot of that out, I ended up with about $250 a week extra. Granted I make more then minimum wage but I was wasting a lot more too.

You're asking somebody who's life already sucks---and is filled with "no" this and "no" that--to subject themselves to ever more "no". And not only to do that, but to save an amount of money over 20 years that would be unable to change their station in life anyhow.

IF the person whose life already sucks refuses to do anything (or at least simple things) to improve it, then I shouldn't have to hear them complain and demand more. It will never end if they will not do anything to stop the hemorrhaging of money and end up getting more because they will lose with poor decisions too.

They don't have to follow any advice given to them. Just don't expect me to have much empathy for someone stuck in a hole who refuses to stop digging.

Re:Ahem...

[ChrisMaple]

What loony world do you live in, that children should be regularly given soda and candy? I suspect it's the same world where they'll get the diseases that a poor diet causes.

Re:Teach a man to fish...

[nbauman]

That is exactly the opposite of what the scientific research, in TFA, found. http://www.sciencemag.org/content/341/6149/976.abstract

If you ever were thrown down into destitution, you'd have a hard time managing your affairs. Poor people can't just pay their bills, they have 5 bills that are overdue and they have to decide what to do next. That takes a lot of attention.

Re:Mental illness

[phantomfive]

Wow, you're amazing at diagnosing mental illness. I'll bet you could get a degree without even working, you're so amazing.

sounds like you're on a good track

[raymorris]

It sounds like you're doing the things that will get you where you want to be, the same things my parents did.

I never said anyone would be on a Lear jet at 26. I said that working hard, no matter what, and education will get you far and that's what you're doing. I bet you'll really enjoy the payoff in a few years if you stick to it. You've even recognized that the consumer debt is something you want to avoid as much as possible.

I actually did talk about myself a couple of times in this thread. The short version is that when I started college at 16, did dumb things and ended up living under a tarp behind KMart, then worked hard, stopped doing some of the dumb, and got a place and built a business. Sold the business, didn't use the money to finish school and that was dumb. Struggled with no degree, started wising up, bought a house, took a great class on money, now finishing school twenty years after I started.