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Snowden Docs: Brits Hacked Accounts of Belgian IT Admins
An anonymous reader writes "British secret service GCHQ is willing to penetrate the networks of telecoms firms to subsequently use them for spying. German magazine DER SPIEGEL reports GCHQ hacked the machines of Belcacom staff to later use their GRX routers for targeted man-in-the-middle-attacks on people's phones. Belgacom is the biggest telecom in Belgium, and is partly state-owned. DER SPIEGEL publishes three original slides from a GCHQ presentation. They specifically mention targeting 'engineers/systems administrators.'"
...that all governments spy on all other governments, regardless of the state of cordiality between those nations.
Didn't we already know this?
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
Proving Nigel Farage wrong! Belgium really is relevant!
Truthfully, if any hub of communication on the continent was going to exploited and counter-expoited, it would be the trunks and infrastructure running into and out of Belgium. SHAEF is there and lots of other stuff. I wonder what will be unearthed about the Russians in Belgium?
---- The above post was generated by the Turing Institute. Maybe.
This was probly at the request of Nigel Farage, given his opinion on Belgium and attempts to "..be the quiet assassin of European democracy and of European nation states.".
Any chance the GCHQ people will do time in Belgian jails?
Any chance the U.K. will get an astronomical fine?
The Christian religion has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world. -- Bertrand Russell
The rule of security is: Make it more expensive for the attacker than it's worth to them.
How much is it worth to spy agencies to have root access to telecom providers? Quite a bit, is my amateur guess. The telecom providers (and ISPs, etc.) should anticipate attacks proportional to the value, and implement security proportional to the anticipated attacks. (But do they really have a chance of holding off the NSA, GCHQ, etc.? Perhaps their own national intelligence agency could help, if their citizens can trust them).
How much would it be worth to attackers to access Barack Obama's phone? A general in the military? Warren Buffet? Depending on who you are, the answer ranges from billions to life-and-death (e.g., an enemy in war's survival might depend on access to a U.S. military general's communications). With stakes so high, can such things really be secured?
I could be way off base, but I bet this particular type of information was sought out from the leaks by Greenwald to dissuade GCHQ from behaving the way it did again...
Hmm, the humour and sarcasm seem to have been be lost on you.
They dont. Belgians arent bullies who try to intimidate everyone.
Could someone explain to a non-networking person what exactly a GRX router is?
What proof do we have of the authenticity of what Snowden is leaking? It could all or mostly be bullshit. In any good psyop you need a small element of truth to add authenticity to the bulk of propaganda. He needs to survive somehow so how do we no that this seemingly endless supply of highly classified documents are not fabricated? There is certainly financial motivation on his part, the Globe and other news outlets to keep the story going.
So what more have we learnt about Poirot?
We already know that something between 1984 and the NAZI regime was being built. Snowden just brought it to everyone's attention.
The best thing we can do is either unplug all together or create custom P2P networks that breaks from the standard networks. We need to use disruptive technologies like CB, Zigbee, enhanced versions GPG, faxs, face to face communication, hell even FIDOnet would offer a level of privacy you usually can't get today.
You say things that offend me and I can deal with it. Can you?
Where is the time when British people knew how to use avoid using indecent language...
The bombs in Belgium are under American control.
Hey, we're allies! Please treat us as such.
They dont. Belgians arent bullies who try to intimidate everyone.
Yeah, well except that minor unpleasantness in the late 19th century where their King was responsible for the murder and genocide of between 2 and 15 million people in the Congo.
One has to wonder if the "boring Belgians" stereotype was encouraged by the Belgians themselves, since it's probably preferable to being associated with a King who seems- by all accounts- to have been the forerunner of Adolph Hitler. Or maybe it just didn't count as much back then (and now?) when it was Africans being killed in that manner.
Getting rather sick of just overview articles that tell what intelligence agencies are doing, but doesn't explain HOW they are doing it, or everything that they are doing with the collected data. Basically, the journalists have now become the gatekeepers of information deciding what the affected masses should see. Give us (tech community) specific details on who/what has been compromised so that mitigation can take place while we wait for legal and political solutions (if they ever come) to address the criminality and policies of these organizations. The journalists are already on the hook if governments decided to prosecute them for disseminating classified material to individuals without security clearances, so what difference does it make if they release a some details about specific OS vulnerabilities implanted by developers cooperating with, or even paid by the NSA, et al.
They got hold of Belgacoms routers, which route smartphone data for it's users, which lets them intercept the smartphones connected to belgacom's network, including all the roaming. Including Brits in Belgium.
Belgacom's users being people like the EU Parliament, EU Commission, visiting politicians who roam through Belgacom. Including British politicians, journalists, etc. SWIFT, and other international organizations are based in Belgium.
European arrest warrant should be issued as soon as they find out who was involved, and for the head of GCHQ for ordering it, and the UK police should not side with the MET/GCHQ. This is a crime, clear and simply. A major crime at that, it is not legal in the UK to hack computer systems.
Dear Anonymous Coward,
We, being the fine people of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, wish to inform you that we have retained our ability to avoid the use of foul language. We also wish to inform you that your assumption that it has gone belies a spectacular lack of awareness on your part. So much so that I would wager my pet parrot against you in matters of general knowledge. Which is saying a lot, because my pet parrot died last week.
Sincerely,
A loyal subject of Her Majesty The Queen.
P.S., Fuck you, arsehole.
"It appears to be a method with which the person being targeted, without their knowledge, is redirected to websites that then plant malware on their computers that can then manipulate them."
So that's who keeps doing that. And I was blaming flash gaming sites that my mother-in-law goes to.
They dont. Belgians arent bullies who try to intimidate everyone.
Yeah, well except that minor unpleasantness in the late 19th century where their King was responsible for the murder and genocide of between 2 and 15 million people in the Congo.
One has to wonder if the "boring Belgians" stereotype was encouraged by the Belgians themselves, since it's probably preferable to being associated with a King who seems- by all accounts- to have been the forerunner of Adolph Hitler. Or maybe it just didn't count as much back then (and now?) when it was Africans being killed in that manner.
Don't go throwing the first rock if you don't want it thrown back at you :
American indian genocide + slavery up until the 1960's is something to be proud of ?
British inventing the "concentration camp" and carrying out wars of conquest/genocide all over the world is something to be proud of ?
French colonialism is not something to be proud of.
Even the Germans have dirty hands.
And the Cinese, and the Japanese and Russians and Turks and the Spanish and Portuguese and the Italians and the Austrians.
You want redress in this world ? Get the southern hemisphere to wipe out the entire northern hemisphere where all of these countries are.
It was 2010, so Sir Arthur Bonsall was the director of GCHQ at the time.
The crime he committed, is Belgiums anti hacking law. There is no immunity for GCHQ in Belgium, he is just a criminal like any other.
Presumably the GCHQ/NSA PR machine and astroturf will be out and about telling us it was all for Belgium's interests... just like it hacked into Brazil Petroleum and claimed it was 'to detect economic instability...' what claptrap. It was just more spying.
The European arrest warrant means Belgium should be able to force Britain to hand him over for trial. CIA nearly lost their chief to Italy, who prosecuted for illegal rendition. Instead of defending himself, he just ignored it, and hoped his political masters would protect him. They didn't. So Bonsall is expendable, and easy to arrest in mainland Europe. He will cross European airspace sooner of later.
I assume Cameron and William Hague will offer him their full support, (i.e. a sacrificial lamb).
Nah, that one is pretty good in the context of EU.
Not just Nato, EU is based in Belgium, all those smartphones owned by EU politicians tapped, all the secrets of their visiting family members, all that political leverage. Since Belgacom is a big roaming provider, all the *visiting* politicians would also be tapped too while in Belgium. So UK politicians visiting the EU Parliament with their smartphones, all the German politicians visiting the EU Commission.
In related news, the Belgium Foreign office was tapped:
http://www.deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws.english/News/130919_hacking
"public prosecutors are investigating a break-in into the computer network employed by the Belgian Foreign Ministry."
"The news that malware was discovered on computer systems operated by the Belgian Foreign Ministry has been confirmed by an official.
"The discovery of the malware was made at the end of 2011. Joren Vandeweyer: "The computer programme was not designed to cause any damage, but rather to copy data."
"We immediately changed our security system and contacted the Defence Ministry and informed the Prime Minister."
"The public prosecutor’s office is now investigating whether the American intelligence service NSA is behind the hacking."
I notice below people are saying NATO comms doesn't use Belgacom, which is false and misleading. All the Generals have their phones, all those smartphones roam through Belgium's telecoms infrastructure.
Well, I am "willing to penetrate" certain young female celebrities. Doesn't mean I did. Doesn't even mean would. Certainly won't get the opprtunity.
They dont. Belgians arent bullies who try to intimidate everyone.
Yeah, well except that minor unpleasantness in the late 19th century where their King was responsible for the murder and genocide of between 2 and 15 million people in the Congo.
The Royal House of Belgium was imposed on the Belgians by the English and the Germans, who were affraid of too much French influence in the country.
Leopold I van Saxen-Coburg was born in Coburg (Bavaria, Germany), he was the uncle of Queen Victoria (who was also part of the Saxe-Coburg family, they changed their name into Windsor to sound less German).
Congo was the _personal property_ of his son, Leopold II. After the outrage on how he treated the Africans, he "donated" it to the Belgian state as a colony. As a Belgian colony, Congo was not worse of than any other colony at the time (which is bad enough).
a King who seems- by all accounts- to have been the forerunner of Adolph Hitler
Leopold II did not want to exterminate the Africans (unlike Hitler who wanted to exterminate all Jews, Gypsies, gays and the mentally ill); he just wanted to make as much profit as possible. His way to make profit was cruel; but as much as I (an anonymous Belgian) hate him, comparing him to Hitler is trivializing the holocaust.
Two wrongs don't make a right, and I was addressing the OP who stated that "Belgians arent bullies who try to intimidate everyone". Which is transparently wrong in a historical sense.
Also- yes, the British widely used the *phrase* "concentration camp" as something of a euphemism during the Boer War. But I don't think they invented the term, and they certainly didn't invent the concept from scratch. And whatever the rights and wrongs of such camps, they were never in the same league of wrongdoing as the Nazis' forced labour and extermination "concentration camps" with which the term became synonymous decades later.
By invoking the term in this (genocidal) context, you clearly associate it with its modern (Nazi-fied) meaning and its horrors, but it was the Nazis who were responsible for that- not the British. Yes, they've done some pretty disgusting things in their time, but they're not responsible for that.
And none of it exonerates the Belgians.
Not of the NSA (I mean seriously, you weren't already?) but of these leaks? I am starting to have doubts that this one contractor had access to all this varied data, about various programs, and now even about non-American agencies.
I am seriously starting to wonder if he, or others, are making up some shit for their own ends. I just have trouble buying that he has all this disparate data, on all this stuff, particularly given the compartmentalization of highly classified data.
Comparing [Leopold II] to Hitler is trivializing the holocaust.
On the contrary; while I don't intend getting into a "most evil" argument (*), the fact that you think even vaguely implying a comparison between the two (despite the deaths of between 2 and 15 million people- even if that was for reasons of personal greed rather the hatred) could somehow "trivialize" the holocaust- as if the former were not even remotely as important- ironically trivializes *that*.
(*) This would probably end up trivializing both, distracting and polarizing people away from the true issues. Yes, I would say that the "holocaust" *was* worse for the reasons you gave; but this should not be used to trivialize Leopold's conduct in the Congo either.
If you want to know more what each party is discussing with their national governments, can't think of a better place than hacking Belgian telecom.
This is why they did it.
Wearing pants should always be optional.
The Royal House of Belgium was imposed on the Belgians by the English and the Germans, who were affraid of too much French influence in the country.
Leopold I van Saxen-Coburg was born in Coburg (Bavaria, Germany), he was the uncle of Queen Victoria (who was also part of the Saxe-Coburg family, they changed their name into Windsor to sound less German).
Congo was the _personal property_ of his son, Leopold II. After the outrage on how he treated the Africans, he "donated" it to the Belgian state as a colony. As a Belgian colony, Congo was not worse of than any other colony at the time (which is bad enough).
a King who seems- by all accounts- to have been the forerunner of Adolph Hitler
Leopold II did not want to exterminate the Africans (unlike Hitler who wanted to exterminate all Jews, Gypsies, gays and the mentally ill); he just wanted to make as much profit as possible. His way to make profit was cruel; but as much as I (an anonymous Belgian) hate him, comparing him to Hitler is trivializing the holocaust.
Just a reminder that another one of the colonies was Rwanda -- the situation there shows that Leopold II did not want to exterminate Africans, but he DID take a nation and separate the people there into two "races" based on looks and set up a "genetic" breeding program. Those Rwandans with European-looking features were allowed to marry each other and hold positions of power; those without European-looking features (darker skin, flatter nose, lower cheekbones, more protruding forehead) were excluded from this society and were pretty much only allowed to work as grunt labourers. And so we got the Tutsis and Hutus, and the bloody carnage the country is still recovering from.
in hoc to
Off-topic pedantry: the expression's in hock to...
No, no, it's not in hock, although that does rhyme -- read the slide! It says MyNOC .
It makes perfect sense. Chewing on the cables.
Cheers,
"What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
"A four-foot prune."
Liberal scum!!
British are not citizens, they are subjects.
"Civis Europaeus sum!"
You had me until your last line. You actually believe that people in the southern hemisphere are somehow morally superior?
My passport says clearly: Citizen of the United Kingdom
Brilliant move, Britannia.
He's right - Belgians aren't bullies. They were bullies, but then as he pointed out, nearly every developed country has been a bully at some stage in the past, and some still are.
What fucking troll? And it's very much the topic. People are just going to lose interest until they hear or see something they didn't already suspect. And besides, this will have little to no effect on the next set of elections. You're still going to see nothing but republicans and democrats in power. And they sure don't care what the EU thinks. Their politicians are on board anyway. This is going nowhere fast. "Where's the beef?" What's going to be done about it? A big fat nothing, what's what. And certainly not anything with the current set of bums in office. Just a lot of chatter and nothing else.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
They dont. Belgians arent bullies who try to intimidate everyone.
The opposite of "bully" is NOT "pacifist".
Bombs?ÂBuns, surely?
Stick Men
On 1 January 1983, upon the coming into force of the British Nationality Act 1981, every Citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies became either a British Citizen, British Dependent Territories Citizen or British Overseas Citizen.
Use of the term British subject was discontinued for all persons who fell into these categories, or who had a national citizenship of any other part of the Commonwealth. The category of British subjects now includes only those people formerly known as British subjects without citizenship and people born in Ireland before 1949. In statutes passed before 1 January 1983, however, references to British subjects are interpreted as if they referred to Commonwealth citizens.
The above is from Wikipedia, The use of the British Subject is now nothing more than a stereotype and for future reference, it would be wise that you do not use this anymore.
Indeed, it seems that there are still people out there that refuse to learn.
Everyone ( the idiots anyway ) say its only the USA that does this.. this cant be true..
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Who cares what it says. Bottom line is we have lost control of our bloated state. They are a bunch of bastards doing whatever they like.
And we can't vote them out because all the major parties are afraid of MI* and GCHQ. Plus both Cameron and Milliband are scumbags who don't see any problem with this sort of thing.
I'd love to see someone invade Britain having bombed GCHQ back to the stone age and rounded up the entire civil service. They would be greeted as liberators.