Slashdot Mirror


Air Force Wants Technology That Will Let Drones Sense and Avoid Other Aircraft

coondoggie writes "With an eye toward letting drones share the nation's common airspace, the Air Force has set out to find the technology that will let unmanned aircraft sense and avoid other airplanes in flight. The ability to sense and avoid — common on all manned aircraft that fly the national airspace — is one of the trickier issues for drones which do not support such technology. It will be a major hurdle to jump as drone vendors and others press for common drone access to national airspace."

97 of 148 comments (clear)

  1. A radar? by Anon,+Not+Coward+D · · Score: 2

    It is that easy? and a good script to read the output

    --
    Sometimes it's better not having signature
    1. Re:A radar? by stewsters · · Score: 4, Interesting

      That would seem the obvious answer for civilian areas. I am wondering if there are power, weight or stealth requirements that radar doesn't fit. I would guess a stealth attack drone that you send it to shoot down their fighters would both need to be quite and be able to sense other aircraft. "Avoid" might be switched to "intercept" in the article title.

    2. Re:A radar? by i+kan+reed · · Score: 1

      Radar is actually physically bulky when used for precise detection. Visual recognition algorithms might be more aerodynamic.

      Who knows what technologies the military actually has available, though.

    3. Re:A radar? by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      Radar means no more stealth - drones are built to be stealthy. It's supposed to be "covert" surveillance. And radar means you need a lot of power, which means mass to generate that power, which means you need a bigger engine and a bigger airframe, etc etc etc.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    4. Re:A radar? by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      it's friggin expensive.

      might be doable for something like global hawk(which already uses radar for ground surveillance and no doubt can avoid other planes with data from awacs).

      but global hawk is friggin 130millin+ per unit.

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    5. Re:A radar? by newcastlejon · · Score: 2

      Military drones may be built to be stealthy, but I don't see why publicly-owned ones (or ones owned by members of the public) wouldn't want to avoid aircraft. With that said, how many drones fly as high as regular aircraft? Certainly, there's a conceivable risk of them colliding during landing or takeoff but a seemingly simple solution to that would be to just ban them from being used near airports.

      Don't aircraft already carry some kind of transponder that drones could be programmed to avoid if the signal gets above a pre-set threshold?

      --
      If God forks the Universe every time you roll a die, he'd better have a damned good memory.
    6. Re:A radar? by icebike · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It is that easy? and a good script to read the output

      I can't see a single reason for the Air Force to be flying stealth drones in US airspace.
      So putting radars on them makes sense.

      For combat use, having an active radar can be come a liability, especially if you are on stealth air-to-ground missions.
      For future air-to-air combat use, you probably need the radar anyway.

      Customs and Boarder Patrol drones were equipped with GA-ASI's Lynx synthetic aperture radar, but that is almost certainly
      designed for ground observation, and not aircraft avoidance.

      The weight and size penalty can't be the only thing the Air Force is worried about. They must be resisting reliance on radars
      mostly from the stealth perspective. Why would they need their drones to be stealthy over US territory?

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    7. Re:A radar? by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      It is that easy? and a good script to read the output

      Or just give all aircrafts a very large negative charge and let Coulomb do the heavy lifting. ;-)

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    8. Re: A radar? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You seem to think all aircraft fly above 30,000 feet. GA fliers spend a great deal of tine between 1,000 and 10,000 AGL. These fliers generally are flying under VFR (visual flight rules) where they are expected to see and avoid other aircraft visually.

      If drones occupy this same airspace without avoidance technology there will be issues.

    9. Re:A radar? by PseudoCoder · · Score: 1

      Visual recognition would be a fun approach to research. The trick with visual is to not only have presence detection for a potential collision subject, but also get data as to position and rates of motion so you have an idea not only of where it, but where it will be by the time you get closer to it. That's why a transponder approach is more practical in my opinion.

      --
      "Now, I doubt any of you would prefer a rolled up newspaper as a weapon against a dictator or a criminal intruder."
    10. Re:A radar? by rasmusbr · · Score: 1

      it's friggin expensive.

      might be doable for something like global hawk(which already uses radar for ground surveillance and no doubt can avoid other planes with data from awacs).

      but global hawk is friggin 130millin+ per unit.

      A piece of string is friggin long...

      There are radars in virtually all price ranges. There are cars with radar. I'm sure they can design a unit that makes sense for a drone.

    11. Re:A radar? by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 2

      "That would seem the obvious answer for civilian areas. I am wondering if there are power, weight or stealth requirements that radar doesn't fit. I would guess a stealth attack drone that you send it to shoot down their fighters would both need to be quite and be able to sense other aircraft. 'Avoid' might be switched to 'intercept' in the article title."

      I would guess that radar stealth techniques, if not already applied to missiles, soon will be.

      But for "non-stealthed" craft, I would imagine that this would have many civilian uses. After all, until aircraft can reliably locate and avoid other craft automatically, few people will have "flying cars".

    12. Re:A radar? by camperdave · · Score: 1

      Neither would be more aerodynamic, since either can be placed behind a transparent-to-the-appropriate-frequencies fairing.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    13. Re: A radar? by sabri · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You seem to think all aircraft fly above 30,000 feet. GA fliers spend a great deal of tine between 1,000 and 10,000 AGL. These fliers generally are flying under VFR (visual flight rules) where they are expected to see and avoid other aircraft visually.

      You are right. However, a lot of airspace requires, and a lot of airplanes have, transponders. With the roll-out of ADS-B, all aircraft will be visible in the future.

      When I fly GA, I have a little device called a PCAS in my cockpit. It passively monitors the transponders from other aircraft and will alert me if someone is nearby. This is a very light weight piece of technology, about the size of my cellphone. Easy to use in a drone...

      --
      I'm not a complete idiot... Some parts are missing.
    14. Re:A radar? by camperdave · · Score: 1

      I can't see a single reason for the Air Force to be flying stealth drones in US airspace.

      Really? Not even for pilot training? Not even for equipment validation? What about air shows? Demonstration flights? Wargames?

      Your imagination needs a workout, I think.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    15. Re:A radar? by icebike · · Score: 1

      I can't see a single reason for the Air Force to be flying stealth drones in US airspace.

      Really? Not even for pilot training? Not even for equipment validation? What about air shows? Demonstration flights? Wargames?

      Your imagination needs a workout, I think.

      Which one of the things you have listed require them to be stealth?
      They can carry Transponders and Active Radars for those activities.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    16. Re:A radar? by alexander_686 · · Score: 1

      With the exception of air shows, the Air Force can do all of that today. They have big controlled air spaces were civilian craft are not allowed so being able to avoid other aircraft is not a big issue. No, these rules are for civilian drones.

    17. Re:A radar? by alexander_686 · · Score: 1

      Darn – I just remembered a big expectation and need to retract my prior statement – disasters. At one point during Katarina people wanted to put up drones to help spot issues but could not because the drone might run into a helicopter or something.

    18. Re:A radar? by Garridan · · Score: 1

      lolwut. Have you ever been in an airplane? Have you ever looked outside while in said airplane? If you said 'no' to either of these questions, you aren't qualified to make recommendations to the Air Force or FAA. I answered 'yes' to both of these questions, and have observed on many occasions that clouds are quite opaque, and would defeat any 'visual recognition algorithm'.

    19. Re:A radar? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It's actually even easier. It's called a TCAS (Traffic Collision Avoidance System). Most large commercial aircraft already have it equipped. It's small enough to equip on a cessna, and only relies on receiving the transponder hits from other aircraft.

      In laymans terms, when the big ATC radar on the ground detects the various planes in the sky, said planes respond with a transponder code which includes their airspeed and altitude. The TCAS listens for those transponder responses and does a quick bit of direction finding to determine if anyone is on a collision course. If they are, it applies an agorithm to 1) let the pilot know and 2) recommend a course of action (usually climb or descend) to deconflict. The algorithm is designed in a way that if both aircraft are TCAS equipped, the correction recommended to each won't conflict with the other. In fact, in civil aviation, if your installed and certified TCAS system recommends a correction, the pilot is legally obligated to follow it.

      Installing a TCAS is easy. Linking it to the autopilot may be a bit tougher. Of note, this doesn't help in many combat zones where peoples transponders may or may not be turned on, but for over the contiguous US? Absolutely.

    20. Re: A radar? by newcastlejon · · Score: 1

      I didn't think anything, I was asking a question; that's what the squiggly thing at the end of the sentence signifies.

      --
      If God forks the Universe every time you roll a die, he'd better have a damned good memory.
    21. Re: A radar? by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      You are assuming that every other pilot is as responsible as you, and setting his transponder properly. What about a drone pilot who, due to budget cuts, doesn't even know what a transponder is except for another line in a checklist, and doesn't really care because it's not like HE is sitting in the aircraft. Worst that can happen to him is he gets fired, right? Didn't want that stupid $12/hr job anyway...

      No, I think relying on "transponders" is a bad, bad idea. Either drones get their own airspace/altitude and NOTAM'd restricted areas so they can take off and land, and VFR pilots are kept out of that altitude, or I don't see it working at all.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    22. Re:A radar? by WindBourne · · Score: 2

      That is in the VISIBLE light spectrum. In other spectrum, you would pick up images even with the clouds. Personally, I am wondering if a drone flying on its own would be fine, esp. using enemy radar against others. Likewise, add in the ability for drone's to talk to each other and notify themselves of where they are at, and perhaps picking up other crafts.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    23. Re:A radar? by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      directional radar is possible. Likewise, with the detectors in place, it might be able to make use of other's radar signals to see crafts. Personally, I think that a fleet of drones that communicate would make good sense.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    24. Re: A radar? by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      Hmmm. Been awhile since I have been flying. Did not know about the PCAS. Nice.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    25. Re:A radar? by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      Yes, but, assume a flock of drones go in. During a fight, it might be useful to have several that have active radar and can then send the information to the others. Likewise, the others can have sensors to pick up the radar scatter and then cross send the information.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    26. Re:A radar? by theqmann · · Score: 2

      I think the issue is that the military drones can't LEAVE military airspace currently, so to get them out into civilian airspace (for whatever reason) requires following the FAA rules.

    27. Re:A radar? by Capt.DrumkenBum · · Score: 1

      Just off the top of my head, why not just restrict drones to specific altitudes. For example, (All numbers mad up on the spot.) drones are restricted to 300Ft. and piloted aircraft are not allowed to fly at that altitude. Obviously they would still be allowed to pass through, but it would greatly reduce the possibility of a mid-air collision.
      Simple effective, and cheep. It will never happen.

      --
      If I were God, wouldn't I protect my churches from acts of me?
    28. Re:A radar? by camperdave · · Score: 1

      Which one of the things you have listed require them to be stealth?

      Let's see. Pilot training. Equipment validation. Wargames. Besides, stealth is more than just not having active transponders and radars. Stealth is also built into the airframe, in terms of materials used, reflection angles, etc.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    29. Re:A radar? by Roachie · · Score: 1

      Use the heat seeker off of a sidewider and wire the outputs in reverse -so that 'steer toward the target' becomes 'steer the other way'. But then there is the sun... Anyway, dibs on the patent!!!

      --
      This sig is not paradoxical or ironic.
    30. Re: A radar? by sabri · · Score: 1

      What about a drone pilot who doesn't even know what a transponder is

      Well... They should not be piloting an aircraft anyway. I agree with you that relying on transponders is a bad idea, but the main point of my argument was to counter the thought that "detection equipment" would be too bulky or expensive. I was trying to point out that for a few hundred dollars and less than 12oz of weight, one can have a relatively reliable detection mechanism.

      In the real world, I do realize that my PCAS has limits. It doesn't protect me against aircraft without a transponder, and I've seen those quite a lot in class E airspace.

      Either drones get their own airspace/altitude and NOTAM'd restricted areas so they can take off and land, and VFR pilots are kept out of that altitude, or I don't see it working at all.

      I would not be surprised if that would happen indeed.

      --
      I'm not a complete idiot... Some parts are missing.
    31. Re:A radar? by icebike · · Score: 1

      Nope:
      None of those activities require the aircraft to be INTENTIONALLY NOT showing a big electronic signature.
      Even war games are flown with transponders on.

      Stealth in an air frame is TOTALLY overcome by a transponder or an active radar.

      Again, I state, there is no reason the US Air Force (or anybody else) needs to fly in stealth mode over the US in peace time.
      Not a manned craft, and certainly not an unmanned craft.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    32. Re:A radar? by camperdave · · Score: 1

      You better tell the folks at Edwards Air Force Base that they shouldn't be testing stealth drones there, then. Oh, and maybe you should shoot an email over to Lockheed Martin's Skunkworks complaining about the RQ-170 Sentinal development. And I suppose the folks at White Sands Missile base should be chastised for testing the new stealth cruise missile in US skies.

      Bottom line: The Air Force is not going to test stealth technologies or anti-stealth technologies in foreign airspace, and they're certainly not going to wait until wartime to develop these technologies, because by then it will be too late.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    33. Re:A radar? by davester666 · · Score: 1

      I know: A pilot!

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    34. Re:A radar? by RespekMyAthorati · · Score: 2

      Especially at night.

    35. Re:A radar? by icebike · · Score: 1

      The Air Force doesn't test Navy Drones.
      Edwards is closed air space.
      All testing by Lockheed carried transponders until they were in closed air space.
      White Sands is closed air space.

      So four for four, you're just wrong on all points.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    36. Re:A radar? by Garridan · · Score: 1

      Don't be silly. That just doesn't happen. Not in the air.

    37. Re:A radar? by Geheimagent · · Score: 1

      Radar is not used for that. Civilian and military planes use transponders for that.

    38. Re:A radar? by camperdave · · Score: 1

      Where, pray tell, is all of this closed air space?

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    39. Re: A radar? by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      The drone pilot doesn't have a choice, his transponder is hard wired on when the aircraft is powered. After 9/11 turning off transponders is not so much an option anymore. All so, even in IFR flight, you ARE STILL RESPONSIBLE FOR FOLLOWING VFR RULES TO THE BEST OF YOUR ABILITY GIVEN VISIBILITY.

      You'll still fail your IFR check ride if its 0 visibility and you keep your head down on the dash the entire time you're flying.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    40. Re:A radar? by Lord+Lemur · · Score: 1

      You failed to notice that he will just keep moving the goal posts.

    41. Re:A radar? by camperdave · · Score: 1

      Oh, I noticed. But I played a mean game of Ballblaster back in the day, so I'm used to moving goalposts.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    42. Re: A radar? by sabri · · Score: 1

      You'll still fail your IFR check ride if its 0 visibility and you keep your head down on the dash the entire time you're flying.

      As someone currently training towards an IFR rating, thanks for that tip :-)

      --
      I'm not a complete idiot... Some parts are missing.
  2. Avoid drones by jfdavis668 · · Score: 2

    Why don't they invent technology that lets plane sense and avoid drones?

    1. Re:Avoid drones by Dunbal · · Score: 5, Funny

      Then no plane would ever land at a commercial airport with a TSA presence?

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    2. Re:Avoid drones by jfdavis668 · · Score: 1

      Good one.

  3. If the software is cleaver enough to avoid other a by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    ....it would probably be cleaver enough to also hit another aircraft. All they would need to do is change an equals to a not equals.

  4. which way did they go? which way did they go? by themushroom · · Score: 1

    You made a Warner Bros cartoon featuring Wile E. Coyote come to mind, with the copter doing a sudden jump up and all the drones crashing nose-first midair.

  5. Strange by Dunbal · · Score: 3, Funny

    Defense contractors: But boss, I don't understand. We've been working 30 years and we've spent 100 billion dollars to get this thing to home in and hit any target you designate with a high probability, and now you want us to design one that does exactly the opposite? I suppose I could point you to one of our earlier test models...

    --
    Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
  6. I've got the technology patent by GodfatherofSoul · · Score: 1

    My units cost about $2 million each with about $100K maintenance annually, however maintenance facilities can range from 1-3K sq ft each. Throw in a about $500K for an ejection system to salvage my units in case of an emergency, you're looking at $2.5M up front per drone.

    I call my prototype a PIE LOOT.

    --
    I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
  7. Working on it by NewtonsLaw · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I'm a guy who's been in the electronics and software industry for over 40 years and have a very strong background in RF, digital and analog systems.

    I recently started putting that expertise to work in an attempt to come up with an effective and affordable "Sense And Avoid" (SAA) system -- at least in part because I fly FPV RC model aircraft and for these to be flown safely "beyond visual line of sight", some form of SAA is required.

    After spending a considerable amount of time investigating previous strategies and considering the strengths and weaknesses of the available technologies, I have designed and prototyped a system that delivers a 1-mile "sphere of awareness" around any craft on which it is installed.

    It does not rely on transponders (thus will "sense" *any* potential threat within that 1-mile sphere) and is small/light (250g) enough to be fitted to all but the smallest unmanned craft. The price (in volume production) would also be very reasonable -- about US$250.

    Initial (ground-based, static) testing has shown that the prototype system conforms very closely to the design goals and expectations -- the next step is to strap a second prototype to a small foam RC model plane and start collecting dynamic data which will be used to test and refine the firmware.

    Unfortunately -- this is where everything turns to custard.

    The national airspace administrator here in New Zealand is CAA (our equivalent of the USA's FAA). They, in their infinite wisdom, have decided that since what I'm working on has significant commercial potential, I can not continue my development work (ie: strap this thing to a small foam RC model and fly it over a grassy paddock in the countryside) without first gaining a "commercial operating authority".

    Now I've been flying RC models for almost 50 years and have a very high level of skill. Hell, I have two very popular YouTube channels with a total of over 45 million views and 100K subscribers in which I entertain and inform folks on the subject of RC models. However, all this counts for nothing and, according to CAA, if I want to continue my development of this technology by strapping it (as a passive payload) to the type of small foam model that thousands of folk fly here every weekend, I must jump a raft of ridiculous hurdles.

    Firstly, the "minimum requirement" is a full-sized pilot's license -- which costs about $18K to obtain in this country.

    Secondly, I have to file all sorts of safety plans, obtain a radio qualification and engage in a huge amount of bureaucratic crap -- simply to do what I've done as a hobbyist for decades -- fly a tiny (900g) foam RC plane over a grassy field in the countryside.

    Now I don't have $18K to spend getting a pilot's license, besides which, this is silly bureaucratic nonsense!

    As a result, the technology which I've developed and which stands to be a real "game changer" with massive export/earnings potential for this tiny nation that keeps crowing about its "innovative tech sector" is becalmed because some idiot desk-jockies seem to think that somehow, simply because what I'm doing has commercial potential, any RC flying I do will result in widespread death and destruction -- unless I spend months filling in forms, learning to fly a full-sized plane and licking boots.

    This, my friends, is why New Zealand barely qualifies as a first-world country and will *never* play any significant role in the tech world.

    Meanwhile, the same country spends $1m of taxpayers' money on something as lame and dangerous as the Martin Jetpack.

    Go figure!

    Those who ask "why not just find a quiet spot and test it anyway without telling anyone?"... well CAA have advised me that if I dare to do this without the required "authority", they will take "enforcement action" against me. So, if I turn around and say "I've tested it and it works" then it's "do not collect $200, do not pass go, go directly to jail".

    And for those who ask "if this technology works as well as you say, why not get

    1. Re:Working on it by NewtonsLaw · · Score: 1

      The problem is that there's a catch-22 here.

      Before I can gain any worthwhile IP protection (ie: a patent), I need to ensure that the design is tested/finalised. Without IP protection, the level of disclosure required to negotiate a partnership would produce a significant risk (especially considering the size of the market) of a prospective partner just taking the technology and using it then saying "so sue us" (I've had that happen before).

      I've been around long enough to realise that such partnerships can be fraught with peril, especially when you're talking about tech breakthroughs that have this level of commercial potential - after all, the US government is mandating the use of these systems by 2016 so it's a "must have" for anyone wanting to use "drones" in national airspace.

    2. Re:Working on it by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Care to give us a hint as to how it works? 1 mile in all directions without transponders is pretty impressive. The obvious solution would be some kind of radar, but all in a package weighing only 250g? Also, active radar wouldn't be much use on a stealthy drone.

      If your invention really is capable of what you claim it is then getting some investment and a commercial testing license shouldn't be an issue.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    3. Re:Working on it by Falkentyne · · Score: 1

      What about taking your equipment to another country without restrictive rules and regulations which would allow you to do the testing? Although that would probably be expensive - if you had any friends in foreign countries you could ask them for help but you'd have to really trust them I suppose.

      Bureaucracy is a bitch.

    4. Re:Working on it by NewtonsLaw · · Score: 1

      Sometimes it's easier to get forgiveness than permission. :-)

      Unfortunately it's been made very clear to me that no forgiveness would be forthcoming, should I dare to thumb my nose at this authority.

      Yes, that's the sorry state of NZ's bureaucracy on all too many occasions.

    5. Re:Working on it by NewtonsLaw · · Score: 1

      Care to give us a hint as to how it works? 1 mile in all directions without transponders is pretty impressive. The obvious solution would be some kind of radar, but all in a package weighing only 250g? Also, active radar wouldn't be much use on a stealthy drone.

      If your invention really is capable of what you claim it is then getting some investment and a commercial testing license shouldn't be an issue.

      Obviously I'm not about to give too much away -- suffice to say that it is an active system which operates below the RF noise floor and has two elements to the sense component (not visual or audio though).

      You are right that conventional radar is too heavy and too power-hungry for this type of application.

      Suffice to say that this approach to SAA would not be possible without some serious (and compact/low-energy) processing power, only made possible by the advances of recent years.

    6. Re:Working on it by tlhIngan · · Score: 1

      The national airspace administrator here in New Zealand is CAA (our equivalent of the USA's FAA). They, in their infinite wisdom, have decided that since what I'm working on has significant commercial potential, I can not continue my development work (ie: strap this thing to a small foam RC model and fly it over a grassy paddock in the countryside) without first gaining a "commercial operating authority".

      Now I've been flying RC models for almost 50 years and have a very high level of skill. Hell, I have two very popular YouTube channels with a total of over 45 million views and 100K subscribers in which I entertain and inform folks on the subject of RC models. However, all this counts for nothing and, according to CAA, if I want to continue my development of this technology by strapping it (as a passive payload) to the type of small foam model that thousands of folk fly here every weekend, I must jump a raft of ridiculous hurdles.

      My suggestion? If your product is as good as you say it is, it's worth a LOT of money. I'd suggest moving to the US where the air regs are a bit looser - you can probably still do RC testing. If you wish to graduate it to real planes, there's a whole pile of levels you can go through (though you will probably need a sport pilot's license and fly an experimental LSA - but these are much cheaper).

      If you don't like the US, there's always Canada, which shares many of the same rules. Though if you're under 400', it's pretty much open season And yes, the US and Canada have some of the loosest air regulations around - it's generally a lot tighter and a lot more expensive to fly anywhere else in the world.

      And then once you build it, you can look into scaling it up for real aircraft - 1 mile is plenty for light single engine GA planes - for the faster ones, you'd probably want to increase the range a bit.

      Once it's done, you can write a nice letter to your government explaining that the air regulations pretty much kept you from doing it in NZ and you had to export the technology and manufacturing to other countries, so perhaps it's time to update the regulations somewhat.

    7. Re:Working on it by NewtonsLaw · · Score: 1

      I don't have a lot of cash, what I do have is the knowledge, skill and experience to do this project.

      Besides, why the hell should an organisation charged with the responsibility of keeping the airspace *safe* be placing so many hurdles in the way of a project that is designed to do just that?

      It's not like I'm planning on flying a big heavy drone over a built-up area or flying in controlled airspace. It is the fact that somehow, because an RC plane has something with commercial potential strapped to it then it becomes so unsafe as to require all this extra regulation is a nonsense.

      Sadly, I'm old enough to remember an era when government and its bureaucracies played a much different role and weren't micro-managing every activity of its citizens, while also spying on their every communication and movement.

      These days you can't fart without the permission of some self-important little civil servant (and in the days of alleged AGW, this really isn't far from the truth).

    8. Re:Working on it by NewtonsLaw · · Score: 2

      Geez, given the sentiments expressed in your comment, I'm surprised you actually have a computer.

      You do realise that computers are used to spy on citizens and design all sorts of weapons don't you?

      Hypocrisy?

      Nah... surely not :-)

      The reality is that SAA is a *safety* techology.

      Every year, a good number of people are killed because sometimes (due to a lack of this technology), aircraft crash into each other (go check out the Wikipedia article on mid-air collisions).

      This technology would make *all* aviation safer.

      Do you have something against a technology that saves lives? Shame on you!

    9. Re:Working on it by NewtonsLaw · · Score: 1

      Yeah, the interesting thing was that I was seriously considering making this an open-source project, or at least releasing it to the public domain so that no commercial interest could "own" it and use that ownership to extort the marketplace.

      However, with CAA unilaterally declaring it to be a "commercial activity" -- even though I have not accepted *any* investment or funding and have not made *any* plans to commercialise the project, I think it's time to take a stand against this example of bureaucracy gone mad.

    10. Re:Working on it by NewtonsLaw · · Score: 1

      I have a strong record of successful innovation in the tech field.

      One of my very successful tech ventures was actually showcased by the NZ government at an international meeting of APEC leaders back in 1999. They used it as a shining example to the world of how this country was boxing above its weight in the burgeoning "Knowledge Economy".

      I was also building "drones" and their guidance systems over a decade ago -- long before they became fashionable.

    11. Re:Working on it by gargleblast · · Score: 1

      I don't need investors

      Yes, you do.

      I have enough money to continue the development and testing

      No. You don't. Not with the current rules.

      Get a partner. Two examples are particularly notable for being mentioned elsewhere on this page: The US Air Force, and Tesla. Save your disgust at the bureaucracy for some other time.

    12. Re:Working on it by ShutUpJames · · Score: 1
      I'm working in an NZ patent attorney firm, and I don't think there's a catch-22. You said:

      Before I can gain any worthwhile IP protection (ie: a patent), I need to ensure that the design is tested/finalised.

      The patent system provides for a provisional application. This means you give a general description of your idea (it solves problem X by means Y). You then have 12 months in which you can refine and market the invention before filing the formal "claims" which would define your patent monopoly. If granted, patent protection is back-dated to the provisional application date.

      It sounds like you have a promising idea and the skills to carry it off. If you're keen to talk, you can email ensorassociates at google's email service. I would love to see this get off the ground (pun most definitely intended).

      --

      --------
      "The first of many European imports consumed in New Zealand was a dead Dutchman" - James Belich

    13. Re:Working on it by SkiifGeek · · Score: 1

      You claim it's not a transponder, but admit it's an active system, so that implies some sort of RF transmitter -- which opens up the question of spectrum access.

      You claim that it operates below the RF floor. That implies it knows the signal it should be looking for, otherwise there's some fancy DSP footwork going on that smells like the wrong end of a cow in the size and weight you're talking about, particularly if you include the power and antenna setup for a transceiver, and still have the range you're talking about.

      If you are making an SSR-type system, then that saves on power / weight, but you're in the class of TCAS, IFF, ADS-B, TACAN (Air-to-Air), and back into the world of transponders.

      If there's two elements to the sense component, you've recreated the sense rails from an NDB / ADF, but that doesn't provide ranging, even with a known rate of crossing, and signal strength alone is never relied upon for ranging in the airborne environment.

      If it's below the RF floor as you claim, then fit it to two mountain bikes and ride them at each other for the testing, as it's unlikely to have much of a RADHAZ distance. Or, fit it to your car. Or anything. You don't go and test things like this by bolting it to aircraft straight up. You'll also get more repeatable and falsifiable results.

      I'm not saying it's impossible, or whether what you've come up with is close to anything else that already exists. I suspect it's the latter but, unless you've spent a lot of time around those sort of systems, you're not going to know what does and doesn't exist.

    14. Re:Working on it by Saffaya · · Score: 1

      Have you thought about going to neighbouring Australia for testing purposes ?
      They have lots of (air)space and maybe their AA isn't as boneheaded ?

      New Caledonia isn't far either and also has an RC community, as well as open spaces.

    15. Re:Working on it by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      If your hardware/software works as you claim, finding funding needed to continue your research would be absolutely trivial.

      Have you even looked?

      It isn't bureaucratic nonsense. I fly R/C as well as hold an expired pilot license. Just because you've flown R/C for 40 years doesn't mean you actually understand how general aviation works. I meet old guys at the field every weekend that have no fucking clue that they can't launch an aircraft to several thousand feet because we're only a few miles off the end of a major airport runway, and it doesn't take much altitude to end up in the glideslope of a large commercial aircraft.

      In America, the ground exam is cheap and requires you to know the regulations, which would be a considerable start. Any R/Cer who's using FPV should know the FARs anyway, if you intend to fly outside of visual line of site, you MUST know the FARs as you're now playing just like every other plane in the sky and everyone needs to be on the same page.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    16. Re:Working on it by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      Yeah, the interesting thing was that I was seriously considering making this an open-source project, or at least releasing it to the public domain so that no commercial interest could "own" it and use that ownership to extort the marketplace.

      So you want it to fail to gain acceptance?

      Public domain would be fine, if you license it as GPL you've doomed it as no commercial entity is going to bother certifying your equipment or designs only to have it be easy to rip off by anyone else. You are destroying the incentive for it to be built. If you're going to use some OSS license, don't be a douche and doom it to obscurity. Use some non-virus like license.

      The CAA is telling you that this is something that will have a major effect on aviation if you succeed, and you're getting all huffy and puffy about it. Listen to what they are telling you again. THIS IS IMPORTANT, IT WILL HAVE COMMERCIAL RAMIFICATIONS, IT NEEDS TO BE HANDLED AS SUCH. Don't be a fucking greedy douche and shitcan the whole thing because OMG SOMEONE MIGHT MAKE IT COMMERCIAL. Its going to HAVE to be made commercial. If you don't do it, someone else WILL. If YOU do it, YOU have SOME control over what happens.

      IF and thats a really big if, your hardware and software work as well as you claim, you could be rich tomorrow, and you could do so without screwing everyone over in the process as YOU are the one with the tech right now and YOU are the one with the power to negotiate rights ... non-exclusive rights. Or more appropriately, exclusive rights for say, 5 years to some company to fund commercialization and then you can sell it to other organizations after that, there by accomplishing both tasks.

      You're getting all 'stick it to the man' and all you're doing is cutting off your nose to spite your face. If you don't do it, or you do something retarded like GPL it, cutting out all commercial interest in it, you're just going to remove all the power you have from the situation.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    17. Re:Working on it by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      Besides, why the hell should an organisation charged with the responsibility of keeping the airspace *safe* be placing so many hurdles in the way of a project that is designed to do just that?

      Because lots of people claim ridiculous shit all the time, and without the actual knowledge of a pilot and the regulations related to such as well as UNDERSTANDING why those regulations exist, you will most certainly fuck up many things that we already know how to avoid.

      Its not just your airplanes in the sky asshole. THATS why you are being restricted. You've not done a single thing they ask you to do, and you think you know better than they do about what should be done. How can you possibly make that claim when you don't know what they are wanting you to learn in the first place.

      You're just being an arrogant prick who wants to stick it to the man. Grow up, you don't know everything, and you clearly don't know that much about general aviation regulations and why they exist. This process seems stupid to you because you are ignorant.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    18. Re:Working on it by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      Though if you're under 400', it's pretty much open season And yes, the US and Canada have some of the loosest air regulations around - it's generally a lot tighter and a lot more expensive to fly anywhere else in the world.

      Neither of which all you to fly an unmanned aircraft beyond visual line of sight regardless of altitude without specially obtained waivers, of which almost NONE have been granted to random civilians. Without radio control? Not going to happen. That includes autonomous flight. If you want to do any of that, you've almost certainly got a connection to the military in order to get the require permissions.

      Do you really think its a great idea to let any random fuck put an aircraft in the air without seeing what its doing and having it come through someones car window due to a bug in some software or radio glitch?

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    19. Re:Working on it by NewtonsLaw · · Score: 1

      The problem is gaining patent protection in all the key markets.

      Sure, it's easy enough to file for a provisional patent in NZ - but then there's Australia, the UK, USA and many other countries that would also require the same process so as to ensure the IP was adequately protected.

      Right now, my best protection is to keep the system in-house for as long as is possible and I don't need any additional funding to continue the work so why sell-down at such an early stage when the ony real hurdle is a bunch of stuffy bureaucracts?

    20. Re:Working on it by NewtonsLaw · · Score: 1

      Yes, I have spent a lot of time around these sort of systems.

      Testing on a bike is fine -- in a 2D environment and a degree of that testing has already been done -- to verify the concept and the first-level implementation.

      What's needed now is some real-world testing in a 3D environment so that the firmware can be refined to provide the desired level of performance and its effectiveness can be validated.

      Obviously I'm not giving the full story as to the mechanisms involved but suffice to say that the system presently meets all the expectations had for it - but the firmware requires quite a bit of refinement. To undertake that refinement I need to collect some real-world datasets and that involves flying the system while logging the data collected from the sense elements.

      Unfortunately, since I only have around 50 years of RC flying experience and am considered by many to be something of an "expert" in the field, I'm apparently wildly unqualified to strap 250g of electronics to the side of a small foam model and fly it around for a few minutes over a remote grassy field so as to collect this data.

    21. Re:Working on it by NewtonsLaw · · Score: 1

      Sorry, but you are wrong on just about every point.

      And, as I've always claimed, intelligence is inversely proportional to one's propensity to engage in profanity.

      I guess you're also talking about all the other people who fly RC models all around the world -- since that's *exactly* what I'm trying to do here.

      And, for the record, I've been involved in aviation for decades. I spent many year servicing avionics and provide consulting services to several local aviation companies.

      You should check your facts before embarrassing yourself.

    22. Re:Working on it by NewtonsLaw · · Score: 1

      I don't want to take investors on at this stage because the "cost" of that money would be too high.

      As someone who's successfully been through the process many times, I know that the cost of investment capital falls significantly as you move towards commercialisation. Besides, I don't need money -- all I need are a bunch of idiot bureaucrats to admit that there is *no* real difference between flying an RC plane over a grassy field in the country and flying the same an RC plane with a 250g payload over the same grassy field.

      Simply classifying something as "commercial" does not increase the level of risk to anyone and, as I've already stated, many hundreds of people all over this country fly their RC models over grassy fields (and even in busy city parks within controlled airspace) every weekend -- without the need for a pilot's license and other bureaucratic nonsense.

      And yes, I *do* understand how GA works. Been working around aircraft for a long time and have had a workshop at the local airfield for over 10 years.

      Why do people presume so much when they know so little?

    23. Re:Working on it by Lord+Lemur · · Score: 1

      Your asking the wrong questions... The real question is why you don't take your RC planes on a fishing trip a few miles off shore, out side of the AOR of the CAA. Just completely remove them. Thousands upon thousands of dollars cheaper.

    24. Re:Working on it by ShutUpJames · · Score: 1

      Sure, but the provisional patent covers that. The (cheap in world terms) NZ provisional buys you 12 months protection to seek funding and partners without a risk of being scooped.

      You can then file a Patent Cooperation Treaty (PCT) application which gets your invention into the international WIPO system, which covers all the countries you mentioned (and more!). This gives you another 18 months to fund patent applications in individual countries around the world, while maintaining your priority date. That means nobody can scoop you.

      The PCT applicatoin is more expensive, but by that point you've had 12 months to talk to people and get funding.

      The patent system is not perfect, but it is designed to help in your situation. The total costs of patent protection are massive. But the amount needed up-front is low (comparable to the cost of a very cheap second-hand car). This up-front cost protects you while you find backers with real money.

      If you do not have the price of a cheap second-hand car (around NZ $3000), then you can try to have potential partners sign a Non-disclosure Agreement. This is riskier than having a provisional patent, as the agreement may have gaps. Big companies may refuse to sign NDAs, or may shuffle the legal responsibility around their various divisions and screw you.

      If you're interested, I'm happy to talk more about an NDA or a provisional patent. You can reach me at ensorassociates on Google's email provider.

      --

      --------
      "The first of many European imports consumed in New Zealand was a dead Dutchman" - James Belich

    25. Re:Working on it by ShutUpJames · · Score: 1

      In trying to offer information, I think my previous may have missed your point. Agreed that the beauracracy you encounter sounds silly. My suggestions are attempts to handle a problem that you should not have in the first place.

      --

      --------
      "The first of many European imports consumed in New Zealand was a dead Dutchman" - James Belich

  8. I have the solution. by NikeHerc · · Score: 1

    Keep drones out of U.S. airspace. If this is done, there can be no crashes of drones into manned aircraft. As a no-cost benefit, the government won't be able to use drones to spy on citizens.

    --
    Circle the wagons and fire inward. Entropy increases without bounds.
    1. Re:I have the solution. by idontgno · · Score: 1

      Because, you know, only the United States has manned aircraft in its airspace.

      Or maybe you don't really care if those airliners are full of brown people?

      The US may blow people up with remote-controlled death, but only on purpose. Not because the expensive drone blundered in from of a crowded A300.

      When we shoot down Iranian Airbuses, we do it with missiles, not recon drones.

      --
      Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
    2. Re:I have the solution. by NikeHerc · · Score: 1

      Because, you know, only the United States has manned aircraft in its airspace. Or maybe you don't really care if those airliners are full of brown people?

      Wow, where did all this uncalled for hatred come from? If you had bothered to read the article, you would have noticed it is US-centric and mentioned US-based groups such as US Army, DHS, DOD, FAA, GAO, MITRE, NASA, NAS, USAF, and possibly others.

      I can only vote for US representatives and congressmen and will only vote for those who are against the unlimited spying that will come from drones.

      --
      Circle the wagons and fire inward. Entropy increases without bounds.
  9. TCAS? by Elledan · · Score: 1

    So, basically TCAS? Add the required responder to the drone and the TCAS implementation and it'll know where all other nearby planes/drones are as well as when one is on a collision course.

    See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_collision_avoidance_system

    --
    Site & blog: http://www.mayaposch.com
    1. Re:TCAS? by Hobadee · · Score: 1

      Voice recognition technology is still poor. When the TCAS system says "TCAS Alert! Traffic! Descend! Descend!" you need to be CERTAIN that the drone will analyze that correctly and actually descend, instead of responding "I think you said 'Check my balance'. Is that correct?"

      --
      ...Had this been an actual emergency, we would have fled in terror, and you would not have been informed.
    2. Re:TCAS? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      TCAS relies on transponders in other aircraft. It's right there at the bottom of the page you cited:

      TCAS requires that both conflicting aircraft have transponders. If one aircraft doesn't have a transponder, then it will not alert TCAS as there is no information being transmitted.

      While every airliner is going to have a transponder, transponders are not required in GA aircraft while operating under VFR outside of or below Class C airspace, outside of a Class B Mode C area, and below 10,000' MSL...which, in short, is where I would expect to find drone aircraft, but I wouldn't expect to find a whole lot of airliners. Now, of course, most GA aircraft have (operable) transponders, but there are enough out there to make TCAS less than a total solution. Hell, there are people out there still flying planes without radios. I hate those fuckers.

    3. Re:TCAS? by lightperson · · Score: 1

      Currently TCAS is an active aircraft detection system - it has to send out signals and get replies from other aircraft's transponders (Mode C or Mode S). Then it figures out where they are. It can figure out avoidance maneuvers, for itself, and coordinate those maneuvers with other TCAS equipped aircraft. It's very expensive and heavy. At one time there was talk about having TCAS passively listening to ADSB replies, containing accurate location information, from Mode S transponders on other aircraft. The FAA is actively pursuing making all transponders use ADSB by 2020. When that happens it will be possible to build a small receiver with the TCAS logic that can help the drone avoid collisions with ADSB broadcasting aircraft. The same kind of receiver can be built inexpensively for small aircraft owners. Small aircraft owners may resist having to buy a new transponder (broadcasting ADSB) for their planes, though.

  10. TCAS? by ajclements · · Score: 2

    The technology has been in use since the 50's. How hard can it be to replace the robotic voice with a signal to the drone's navigation system?

  11. There's plenty of research already being done... by PseudoCoder · · Score: 1

    It's just not mature yet for a broad solution. Some have achieved for a single platform, in a specific scenario, but it's really the first iteration before a solution can be applied in an environment like the national airspace. This is being worked on in both strategic level systems like the GlobalHawk and tactical levels like the Shadow and FireScout, and solutions range from ADS-B transponders, to active LIDAR.

    FTA:

    Given the results of Research and Development efforts over the past few years, it is now possible to equip [a drone] with technology that will address some of the major requirements currently driving the FAA authorization process.

    The transponder route seems to be the lowest-hanging fruit at the time.The FAA will have to make ADS-B mandatory across the board so nobody in a Cessna ends up with one of those annoying quad copters through their windshields. At that point one of these might be a good starting point for every Joe Amateur Drone Dude wanting to fly with the big dogs:

    http://www.sagetechcorp.com/unmanned-solutions/unmanned-solutions.cfm

    http://www.unmannedsystemstechnology.com/2013/01/uav-sense-and-avoid-capabilities-demonstrated-by-sagetech-and-ing-robotic-aviation/

    Just like everything these days; plenty of possibilities and approaches, not enough research dollars to get them to market. Plus all the design by committee dynamics that makes any solution take 10 times longer than anyone imagines.

    --
    "Now, I doubt any of you would prefer a rolled up newspaper as a weapon against a dictator or a criminal intruder."
  12. Wait a minute... by pluther · · Score: 1
    They "want" this technology?

    You mean we currently have drones flying around, many of them outside of active warzones and over US cities, that *don't* currently have the availability to detect and avoid other aircraft??

    --
    If the masses can keep you down, you're not the Ubermensch.
    1. Re:Wait a minute... by scsirob · · Score: 1

      Yes, that's how it works today. Drones have no awareness of surrounding aircraft.

      For legal, official drone flights the fix is to write a NOTAM which basically means that pilots of manned aircraft get a piece of paper with coordinates that they need to stay away from.

      For less legal flights I'm pretty sure the government will just take their chances. Because obviously this is for the greater good, to catch the turrrrists..

      --
      To Terminate, or not to Terminate, that's the question - SCSIROB
  13. Re:Now you can use your RC helicopter to heard dro by BubbaDave · · Score: 1

    like a sheep dog!

    If safeguards are not put in place to prevent this, yes, especially if operator not-in-the-loop collision avoidance algorithms are used.

  14. C-130 vs Shadow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    In August 2011 there was a midair between those aircraft. Thankfully no one died. Anyone know how that happened? Hopefully whatever solution is being proposed would have prevented that.

  15. Re:hidden intentions by camperdave · · Score: 1

    They want to use unmanned drones to spy on everyone but right now that would be too dangerous because of possible collisions with commercial aircrafts.

    They want to use unmanned drones to spy on everyone but right now that would be too dangerous because of possible collisions with manned spyplanes. FTFY.

    --
    When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
  16. Doesn't support the technology? by pscottdv · · Score: 1

    The ability to sense and avoid — common on all manned aircraft that fly the national airspace — is one of the trickier issues for drones which do not support such technology.

    It's common all manned aircraft? But you can't stick the same thing in a drone? Why not, exactly?

    --

    this signature has been removed due to a DMCA takedown notice

  17. Radar by Stan92057 · · Score: 1

    Radar is commonly use for this function ;]

    --
    Jack of all trades,master of none
  18. DOH! by jimbrooking · · Score: 1

    How many years have drones been flying for DoD? And they are just now getting around to thinking about how to avoid other aircraft? Is that "air superiority" or "air-rogance" or just stupidity?

    1. Re:DOH! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Since at least 1916. Did you knw that Norma Rae (Marilyn Monroe) was working in a WW-II drone factory when she was discovered.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unmanned_aerial_vehicle

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marilyn_Monroe#Early_work:_1945.E2.80.931947

  19. like the wright bros. by vagn · · Score: 1

    Can you test on a kite?

  20. To Hell With You Types by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Seriously,
    You're too damn good to follow the rules. That's your problem. You think that the rules shouldn't apply to you because you're smarter than them. Really? You're smarter than 50 years of experience well studied and codified? You're so damn good that you can go fly your airplane without the same training that everybody else who shares the airspace has? You're embody the real problem with drones; people who don't want to pay for safety. It's $18K for a pilots license. Learn how to fly safely. Or, take your prototype and put it on a real, safely designed airplane, and go fly it with a real pilot.

    Yes, I am a drone pilot. Yes, I've used the roughly $100K of training that's been put into my skill set to keep people alive. No, I don't want people like you every flying over my children. If you want to play with your toys, play by the toy rules. If you want to fly commercially, learn to fly commercialy, but get the fuck out of the airspace until you do.

    Oh by the way, 1 mile range, beak to beak, gives less than 15 seconds against high speed intruders *flying legally*. Your approach is cute, has been considered by the adults, and discarded because it's irrelevant.

    1. Re:To Hell With You Types by NewtonsLaw · · Score: 1

      The rules sir, are an ass.

      Please explain how the fact that their *might* be a commercial result to my flying an RC model should somehow make the risks associated with that flying so great as to require a full-sized pilot's license and a raft of other compliance hurdles to be negotiated -- while at the same time people with far less skill/experience are crashing their RC models in parks all over the country on a weekend?

      Did you even read what I posted?

      Unless your children are tresspassing and illegally standing in a privately owned grassy field miles from anywhere in the middle of the countryside (which is where I would be flying my 900g RC model), how would I be flying over them? Do your children regularly tresspass onto private property? You need to teach them about property rights.

      They are far more likely to be hit by some novice RC flier trying to control their much bigger and more powerful RC helicopter or plane down at the local park.

      And remember -- we're not talking about a "drone" here, we're talking about an RC plane that weighs 900g, is made of foam and is simply a vehicle for carrying a few bits of electronics into the air to collect some data. You do know the difference between a foam RC plane and a Predator don't you?

      So yes, I guess (even if only because I read what others have written), I guess I *am* smarter than some -- well smarter than *you* anyway. :-)