Slashdot Mirror
Gaming Legends Discuss Using Kickstarter For Their Next Projects
Nerval's Lobster writes "Just as the Internet fundamentally altered the way games are distributed from publishers to players, crowdfunding has upended the traditional models of raising money for gaming development, and some of the most storied people in the industry are taking notice. Chris Roberts, who created the well-known Wing Commander series in 1990, managed to raise millions of dollars on Kickstarter last fall for his upcoming Star Citizen, eventually collecting so much money from individual backers that he could return the budget he'd taken from "formal" investment firms. "Even nice investors, they want a return at some point. They have a slightly diff agenda than I do," Roberts told Slashdot. "My agenda is to build the coolest game possible." He's not the only famed developer getting into the crowdfunding game: Wasteland director Brian Fargo spent years wanting to make a sequel to his popular role-playing game, eventually accomplishing that goal via Kickstarter. And for every famous game creator who uses the power of crowds to produce a new masterwork, dozens of talented amateurs are also financing their first games via Kickstarter and similar services. But that doesn't mean there are occasional high-profile implosions, like CLANG."
Here we go again.
I read TFA (don't judge) and all I could see is feature creep and delays written all over the project. EA's death marches to release should be avoided at all costs, but polar opposite is not any better.
What I don't like about Kickstarter is the long time before I start wanting something and I get it.
I like it to exist. It allows many projects that would otherwise be abandoned. I just don't want to know about them until they are ready to ship the product.
Knowing about the amazing toys I may have in a year's time makes me appreciate less those I've got right now.
...in 3... 2... 1...
"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
But that doesn't mean there aren't occasional high-profile implosions, like CLANG."
At the rate Star Citizen is raising money, it's going to have an AAA budget before it comes out. It happened to hit the sweet spot of a known creator with a proven track record, good timing, and a genre with a lot of fans starved for a game. It's been marketed well, and the early previews have been good to wet the appetite (there's no meat available yet).
The sheer amount of money they've got (almost $20 million) makes it so unusual that it doesn't make a good example. Even if the game is a resounding success (and I sure hope it is) it's not a good example to follow because so few crowdfunded projects can get even close to that in funding.
What other projects CAN learn from them is to not stop fundraising just because your Kickstarter is over. Beyond that, it's just too weird to draw any kind of conclusions from.
-- "So they told me that using the download page to download something was not something they anticipated." - Bill Gates
Although Kickstarter and its ilk have plenty of flaws (for instance, that you probably will never see any returns on your investments), I see crowdfunding as having an important place in the information age. It takes the money and power from the big publishers, and gives it back to the developers and customers, respectively. And it allows the existence of niche projects which most companies would deem as "too risky".
I see the same kind of thing happening with music as well, with sites like bandcamp. As I recall, Radiohead made much more money selling pay-what-you-want copies of "In Rainbows" than they did with all their previous albums put together. Realistically, I don't see the recording industry dying any time soon, but at least we now have financially viable alternatives. It allows things to exist that simply could not have existed otherwise.
Should read "But that doesn't mean there aren't occasional high profile..."
Chris Roberts, who created the well-known Wing Commander series in 1990, managed to raise millions of dollars on Kickstarter last fall for his upcoming Star Citizen, eventually collecting so much money from individual backers that he could return the budget he'd taken from "formal" investment firms. "Even nice investors, they want a return at some point. They have a slightly diff agenda than I do," Roberts told Slashdot. "My agenda is to build the coolest game possible."
Herein lies the difference. Kickstarter backers are not seen as actual investors in the project by the project owners, but rather as a way to informally fund games that the developers want to work on without feeling like there is any real obligation to those who funded it. To paraphrase what Chris Roberts stated, he couldn't care less if it ever makes any money as long as he gets to build the "coolest game possible". Without the incentive/pressure of investors looking for a return however, there will always be "just one or two more things" to finish up and the game will never actually get released.
'The tyrant will always find pretext for his tyranny.' - Aesop's Fables
CLANG's not an imploded game. It's a low-budget prototyping effort meant to show the concept to people with real money so that it (or something along those lines) can be built for real. Contributors got the stuff they were promised (including a downloadable demo of the work so far) and the CLANG people are still talking to money people. Work on the project is on hold until more money can be had. This would be a different conversation if the CLANG kickstarter had been about raising the substantially bigger pile of cash needed to produce a finished product. But they couldn't have been clearer about what it was about, and that's what they did. And so far, attracting a pile of cash to build a finished product is proving just as difficult for them as it is for pretty much everybody else right now.
This is exactly why the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. The rich: Zach Braff, Rob Thomas (Veronica Mars), Chris Roberts, and others are convincing the poor (you) to fund their projects with your money, and then charge you later for the privilege of using it. They're charging you twice, and you're happily paying for it. All the while, they're not out a dime of their own money, but get to reap the benefits of selling their product at a later time (or just keeping your money and never getting the project off the ground).
It'll be part of it, but not THE future. There is still plenty of room for publishers. There is a demand, a large one, for big, well produced, titles. People like the stuff you can get from a game that has a $20-50 million budget (or even more), that you just don't see from crowd funding. Publishers are very useful for funding titles that have a widespread appeal. They can risk a bunch of money because the chance on return is good since the games have a broad enough appeal.
Crowd funding is more for titles that there's a sizable group that is interested in, but not a really huge one. You can get a smaller amount of funding and build a more specialized title, to give particular fans what they want.
That is largely what we've seen in terms of KS successes. Developers have gotten a couple million dollars, which is enough to do a game (see Shadowrun Returns) but not with all the polish of a AAA title.
So both are likely to continue.
It seems a bit unfair to throw CLANG into the mix with these games:
CLANG was started by the author Neil Stephenson, and people are surprised how, by golly, the guy doesn't know the intricacies of game development (and its costs)?
I found it incredibly strange to see how succesful that Kickstarter was, since it's the same as a reknown gamedesigner asking money to write a book...
The other examples are people who have been veterans in the gamedesign industry, and whereas not automatically flawless, they will at least also know about the possible pitfalls of development.
What other famous game devs have tried this? I'd love to see what Chris Taylor (Total Annihilation, Dungeon Siege) could do with this.
I think Kickstarter is having a negative effect on game developers, and it's certainly not doing any favors for gamers.
When it becomes easier to collect money for promising a game than it does to do the hard work and actually produce and release a good game, you'll see what's happening now: a regression in PC gaming.
Over the past several years, there has been something of a renaissance in PC gaming. Skyrim, Far Cry 3, Dishonored, etc. Big games that deliver plenty of value to the consumer. Games, like Skyrim and Far Cry 3 that you can easily put 50-100 hours (or more) and still enjoy. Games that fire up a whole community.
2013 has been an awful year for PC gaming. Look at the list of GOTY candidates from a year ago, and ask yourself if there are any games that have been released this year that are nearly as good, or will provide such good value. I believe, though I don't really have any hard data, that the rise of Kickstarter has convinced a lot of AAA developers to just put out their dream game on Kickstarter and start collecting money. It's a hell of a lot easier than dealing with a big game company and all the hassles, plus when you go that route, the company actually expects you to release something.
Instead, we have a list of promises. Trailers. Trailers announcing the release of a new trailer. Where are the AAA sim racing games this year? Where is the big blockbuster like GTA V for PC this year. Everything is "later". Has there ever been a Kickstarted game that released on schedule?
At least when you give your money to a game company, you get a game, not a promise. If the Kickstarter campaign doesn't produce a game, what do you get besides a new item on your credit card?
If you're going to give somebody money up front, you need to get more than a promise. We have a very well-known system for doing that, it's called "investing". If I'm going to give somebody my money up front so they can make a game, I want a share, however small, of the profits. Besides the novelty, there is absolutely no incentive to donate to a Kickstarted game. Zero. If the game's worth making, then do the work and find backing. But not donations...real backing. You can do it using crowd-funding, but give people real value for the risk they're taking, not just a promise that they'll get a copy of an alpha release when and if the game ever comes out.
I liked Kickstarter for games at first. Thought it was innovative and could produce games that could never be made otherwise. Because there is no accountability, that hasn't happened.
You are welcome on my lawn.
I sincerely hope it's successful. Chris Roberts has a reasonably awesome game-CV behind him (Wing Commander, Strike Commander, etc). I believe he can do it.
However....
While the ongoing waterfall of funding comes in, one of the things Kickstarter projects to is 'stretch goals' - funding hits a big benchmark, some new thing will be added to the scope of the project.
That makes it hard right now to discern whether the 'stretch goals' are reasonable, or a sign of nascent project bloat. I'm reminded of many venture-cap-funded developments in the dotcom days, and projects that suffered not from a lack of funding, but a surfeit: there was no incentive on focusing on a reasonably-achievable project and do it right, to completion, full stop. Everytime a wave of new funding came in, projects' goals would be raised, a host of new features would be projected, and the only thing growing faster than the funding were the aspirations.
So for me the jury's out. I certainly won't wager, er 'invest' in the Kickstarter. If it comes, I'll certainly buy it. But I'm not just paying to see the Egress, either.
-Styopa
Is that they're using other people's money to bootstrap their game/business/etc then retaining all profits of it. Unlike with the traditional investment backing kickstarter doesn't allow 'financial' returns to the donators which means the creator(s) are sole owners of their work on someone else's dime.
Not that this is necessarily a bad thing, but I think more people need to consider treating kickstarter as a 'works for hire' type solution which would have the added benefit of keeping these guys churning out new works because that'd be the only way they'd be getting new funding (rather than residuals from previous works, which might lead them to become complacent... How long has it been since Chris Roberts did anything that the majority of slashdotters would consider memorable?)
Chris started the Kickstarter for SC to prove to investors that there was still a call for this type of game. EA et al. have refused to invest in this sort of game for years as there was "no interest in space exploration games" but Chris wanted to prove that there was. The initial goal of $2M was seen as HUGE at the time. It made that goal with no problems. Funding was also flowing in via the Star Citizen site and hasn't stopped since! With the crowdfunding that has happened, Chris is now able to make the game that he (and all of the fans that have pledged) want's to make. The kickstarter was but a small part of it all. It brought awareness to the masses that the game might not have, had they stayed with just their site for funding. There was a comment of "People who are sure of their product use their own money..." somewhere up in the thread... Chris spent 12+ months choosing an engine and making a tech demo before any of it even started. THAT was his own money put into the game. The kickstarter video featured in-engine visuals of what was possible. HIS investment of time and money made that happen. Another comment was about feature creep. Nothing that has been released with the stretch goals is creep. They have all been planned for, depending on the budget. They are not making things up on the spur of the moment for if they get to a certain amount of money. By keeping the pledgers well informed of what is happening, as well as listening to their opinions, Chris has allowed the community to see a hell of a lot more of the design process than any game previously created. The release of the hangar demo has also helped. Getting bug reports and feedback from the community WAY before it would normally be seen. They have just hit the $20 MILLION mark. Chris has said that at $23M EVERYTHING will have been crowd-funded to make the game. That includes all the credit charges they have to pay for transactions and the % they have to pay Kickstarter. It seemed that it was a long way off just a few short months ago. Now it seems inevitable, and at this rate, will happen by the end of the year. For those that want to read more into Chris' ideas about crowd-funding and Kickstarter, have a look here : http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/200998/chris_roberts_on_star_citizen_.php And for anyone that's interested in the game but not looked, have a read of the articles on the website or drop by the forums: https://robertsspaceindustries.com/
Consider that a typical ownership cut demanded by venture capitalists in California (3000 Sand Hill Road types) is 30 to 50 percent. Kickstarter or Kickstarter clones could do very well just by saying if you (the individual) invest in XYZ and it pans out, you'll get your share of the 10 percent equity slice reserved for investors. So it could be easy for knowledgeable engineers, technicians and scientists to "play" the investment game via Kickstarter, using their insights from work experience, and do pretty well over the long haul. For start up founders, giving up 10% via Kickstarter is hella better than giving up 50% to 3000 Sand Hill Road folks. Why torture yourself trying to impress plump VC guys to give you 10 minutes and take 50% of your future profits, when you can just lay out your idea on Kickstarter and let the subject matter experts vote with their dollars?
Crowdfunding is therefore to the Anglo-Saxon financial elites what the comet was to the dinosaurs.
Therefore it would make sense that chaps such as Mitt Romney and friends are working quietly but very hard on getting crowdfunding outlawed or marginalized. Watch what happens in the next few years. This will of course only accelerate the decline of R&D and technological leadership in the U.S., but for the $$$ elites, that is some future generation's problem.
Having those close to the "investors" setting parameter on technical/gameplay details has them tied to highest-possible financial returns instead of product quality.
In the case of certain big gaming studios, a bad release doesn't even seem a setback any more as they'll just buy out the (smaller) competing shops leaving you with no other choice.
You can create a great game that makes a good/great profit. The problem is that when you start involving those close to the "investors" they want to cut the razors edge between not-fun-enough-to-sell VS crap-that-makes-more-money. Instead of profits based on game sales, you end up with "features" that increase profit but detract from game value such as:
a) Rushed release with poor testing (particularly common when a "big shop" buys out a successful small shop, cuts staff, and imposes sequelitis)
b) 0-day DLC (a.k.a cutting content to sell more as "premium" add-ons)
c) Internet-required/Always-on-DRM
d) Sequelitis (a.k.a interesting, original ideas are too risky and thus do not materialize)
e) In-game ads, including content-updates/downloads that exist just to update advertising
f) Paid DLC/items/levelling/etc
g) Multiplayer-required (good single-player games are becoming increasingly rare)
h) Analytics and personal-information scraping (getting particularly bad on mobile games etc asking for unreasonable permissions)
i) Console/mobile targeted games (may exist on PC but is controls are obviously intended for console)
You might note that all the games you listed were released later in the year. This is normal. The top flight titles come near Christmas since they sell better. October and November and December are the big release times. Checking my little OS clock, we don't seem to be in October yet.
There's also the additional issue of the new console releases, which devs will hold games for since that is a big money thing in more ways than one.
I haven't seen this year as being bad.
There are a few other projects that I feel very "involved" with in terms of how the devs communicate with backers.
These ones have regular progress updates to backers, and - more importantly - the updates give the impression that the devs are quite passionate about their work
* Mighty #9 is fairly fresh but updates are nearly daily
* Leadwerks/Linux gets regular updates
* Planetary Annihilation has good progress and updates, and is steadily moving from Alpha through to Beta
* Openshot is pretty good at passing updates
I've been less impressed by a few other projects that seemed to spend a lot of time sending emails like: Hey, send money to my self/buddies for this other *great* project. SpaceVenture was one that started out like this. It's great that people are making stuff like the old classic sierra games, but I didn't pay to slammed with ads about it.
Ask them to write a 5000 word essay on why this feature is necessary.
The majority won't, the few that will will either convince you by the end of the essay or have you bored by the end of the first paragraph.
This would help cut down on the chaff and ensure that you get a formal enough concept to be able to work into the plan if it is in fact a solid feature request/omission/change.
I have a kickstarter project that is about crowd funding the
"Best Damn iPhone & Car Windshield/Dash Mount Case Ever".
None of the usual:
a) miracle sticky surfaces
b) clamps that take 3 hands
c) magnets that kill reception and cause damage or disconnects,
d) bean bags and things that hide face of phone
e) things that make you take your eyes off the road for long periods of time.
In short its a great implementation:
It's here Best Damn phone case ever!
Problem: You need like 30, 000 dollars to 3D print prototypes to send to bloggers. So the platform isn't all its cracked up to be! It's easy for companies with a cash flow that can afford to do this. I would not recommend to anyone starting a kickstarter project for hardware without the money to build at least 50 finished prototypes, probably more like 200 of them!
Good for big companies with money for advertising or earth changing projects.
Not so good for the small projects!
They should take the kickstarter thing even further (and break thru the rut games are in these days)
Player created assets for the game.
Not just objects, assemblages of objects , but quest scripts, tool plugins, tutorials, template of all of the above to make it easier for others to create....
Yes there will be legal issues and a heavy vetting process (and a community to organize for this scheme to be effective), but players have 1000X the creativity and imagination and potential effort that the games employees will have (really important if its to be a persistant MMORPG).
A games assets cost huge $$$$ and all the player contributions would be free (apart from the easy to use tools the company will have to provide/facilitate).
People will play the game simply to be able to create things for the game universe and the rest of the players will share in the product of those efforts.
Its an idea that is going to happen. But it will take some daring and risk (something most game companies want to do little of)
Sure, mister gaming-legend-who-for-some-reason-doesn't-want-to-finance-his-own-game, I'll chip in some money. If you promise to open-source and release all rights to the game in, say, six months.
Pros)
You still get to make the game you've dreamed of making (since that's what it's all about, right? Definitely not about the money!)
Kickstarter backers still get the game when it's done
Everyone else gets it for free six months later
No giant publishing company gets to pick up the game and make a fortune in profit without having to lift a finger or assume any risk
Cons)
You don't get to make a huge personal profit (but it's not about you making a profit from it right? It's all about getting to make that dream game you wanted!)
Chris Roberts already had the audience - So many people knew him and respected him for previous achievements that the buzz level was phenomenal. Fans will do anything to raise and throw money at him - even making their own crowdfunders for the 10,000 dollar(!) pledges: http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/2014-deloria-space-pirate-calender
Hello, everybody, the good shoping place, the new season approaching, click in. ( http://www.sheptrade.com/ ) (Discount Air jordan shoes) $36, (Air Max shoes) $35, (Nike shox shoes) $36, (Handbags) $39, (Sunglasses) $16, (wallet) $18, (Belt) $17, (T-shirts) $20, (Jeans) $37, (NFL/MLB/NBA)Jerseys $25, ( http://www.sheptrade.com/ ) ( http://www.sheptrade.com/ )