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Justice Department Slaps IBM Over H-1B Hiring Practices

Dawn Kawamoto writes "IBM reached a settlement with the Justice Department over allegations it posted discriminatory online job openings, allegedly stating a preference for H-1B and foreign student visa holders for its software and apps developer positions. The job openings were for IT positions that would eventually require the applicant to relocate overseas. IBM agreed to pay $44,400 in civil penalties to the U.S., as well as take certain actions in the way it hires within the U.S. The settlement, announced Friday, comes at a time with tech companies are calling for the U.S. to allow more H-1B workers into the country."

24 of 195 comments (clear)

  1. Are you F*cking kidding me!!! by msmonroe · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Could the justice department do any less? The fines are a joke.

    1. Re:Are you F*cking kidding me!!! by kpainter · · Score: 5, Funny

      No shit! They could hire at least 4 dudes for that $44K!!

    2. Re:Are you F*cking kidding me!!! by currently_awake · · Score: 4, Informative

      The purpose of the H1B visa is to drive down American wages by forcing them to compete for jobs with the third world. The justice department is doing what they are paid/ordered to do.

    3. Re: Are you F*cking kidding me!!! by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Nonsense. Those visas mandate proper salaries (note that the article says nothing about this point)

      --
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    4. Re: Are you F*cking kidding me!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A law that is not enforced is hardly a law at all.

    5. Re: Are you F*cking kidding me!!! by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Nonsense. Those visas mandate proper salaries (note that the article says nothing about this point)

      It still drives down wages. If there truly is a limited supply of skilled workers, then supply and demand dictates that wages will increase. As wages increase, more workers will enter the field and wages will stabilize. However, bringing in H1B workers keeps supply and demand from working, thus keeping wages down and discourages new workers from entering the field. Bring in enough H1B workers and now there are a surplus of workers and wages fall, maybe not ot third world levels, but below what the market would normally dictate.

      So ultimately, the OP was correct, H1B visas, because they disrupt the normal supply and demand flow for wages do indeed supress wages. While that is not the intended purpose of H1B visas, that is the practical effect.

    6. Re: Are you F*cking kidding me!!! by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      A law that is not enforced is hardly a law at all.

      Worse is when laws are only selectively enforced.

    7. Re:Are you F*cking kidding me!!! by ebno-10db · · Score: 3, Insightful

      we need to clamp down on tech businesses and get them to stop exploiting H-1B's

      Here's a simple approach: eliminate the H-1B program. Forget the "well, let's compromise, some need" blah, blah, blah garbage. Just get rid of it. The country did fine, and was a leader in science and technology for decades, without the H-1B visa program. Also note that this does not mean any reduction in immigration (including skills based immigration), just a guest worker program that we don't, and never did, need (except for lowering salaries).

    8. Re:Are you F*cking kidding me!!! by ebno-10db · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The average H-1B "worker" does not have any skills that are in particularly short supply in the US. That's a myth created by tech companies to up the quota and suppress wages. It's aided and abetted by academia, which wants more customers (called "students" in their business) and their own cheap labor. It's a line parroted by politicians and pundits, but not supported by, uh, you know, actual facts.

      If you want immigrants that are more highly skilled than we have now, then adopt the Australian system, which gives preference to skills that are in particularly high demand, as demonstrated by actual labor statistics rather than the say-so of tech billionaires. For example, a while ago Australia was giving preference to hair stylists. People joked about it, but there was a genuinely high demand for them. Maybe it's all that sun and surf. Regardless, if there is a high demand for hair stylists but not programmers, then hairstylist is a more valuable skill. Your opinion of programmers as highly skilled is irrelevant. Professors of Medieval French Literature are also highly skilled and educated, but there's no shortage of them.

      Lastly, if what you're looking for is skilled immigrants, then why have a guest worker program like the H-1B instead of an immigration program?

  2. $44,400 fine -- That'll teach 'em! by innocent_white_lamb · · Score: 5, Funny

    Yep, a whole $44,400 fine. That's got to sting a multi-billion dollar company. Bet they won't dare try that again.

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    1. Re:$44,400 fine -- That'll teach 'em! by Mitreya · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yep, a whole $44,400 fine.

      Good thing they did not download an mp3 file illegally. Because that could have cost much more!

    2. Re:$44,400 fine -- That'll teach 'em! by philip.paradis · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If investors actually pay any attention at all to this news, the price will go up. IBM has essentially proven to its shareholders that they can once again go up against the federal government in cases like this and come out paying virtually nothing in fines, while not being required to take any meaningful action as far as policy revision goes. That's called "enhancing shareholder confidence."

      You probably shouldn't have sold those shares.

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      Write failed: Broken pipe
  3. This is an outrage! by M.+Baranczak · · Score: 4, Funny

    The heavy hand of big government continues to stifle the economy. Just think how many jobs they could create if they still had that $44,400.

  4. You're 99.9% wrong on blaming government. by sethstorm · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The only wrong thing is that the 1965 Immigration Act was passed. Repeal that, remove the regulations from it, and tell the lobbying organizations that complain to EABOD.

    By showing a preference for more despotic countries and locales over US citizens, businesses show a hate for freedom for anyone else that isnt one of them. They made the choice to use these countries instead of hiring in a more free US.

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  5. Another example of overbearing government by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    IBM agreed to pay $44,400 in civil penalties to the U.S.

    Well gee, why don't you make them switch the way the toilet paper falls over the roll as well, you fascists!

  6. We need IT unions now and better training by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 4, Interesting

    We need IT unions now and better training Not more high cost schools that give you skill gaps.

    1. Re:We need IT unions now and better training by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 3, Funny

      LOL. What is this, 1955? Labor unions don't exist to help workers. Labor unions exist to help labor union bosses and funnel money to one particular political party. That's it.

      Maybe once upon a time, a long time ago, labor unions had a point. Not any more. They are corrupt cannot even keep their own members from deserting. Why are their members deserting? Because labor bosses don't give a shit about their members. Moreover unions are racist.

      The cure you propose is worse than the disease.

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      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
  7. H1B working as intended. by Delusion_ · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Just wrote something about H1Bs in a different post. Modified to be more relevant to this post:

    Every time a company tells Congress they need more H1Bs, they're not telling you they can't find programmers, they're telling you they don't want to pay a competitive wage. Combine this with the fact that a lot of programmer types consider themselves too "individualist" to be involved with anything so "workmanly" as a labour union, and you set up a system where talented workers' wages are artificially reduced.

    The result is a competent creative who is suddenly being pitted against people whose standard of living requires a third or less of the salary by a company whose primary interest isn't in being a good corporate citizen, investing in the community, or even playing by the rules that conservative and libertarian proponents pay lip service to, but increasing "shareholder value" by any means necessary no matter who suffers, and no matter how bad it is for the community, the region, and the country.

    1. Re: H1B working as intended. by Delusion_ · · Score: 4, Insightful

      > Let's ignore for a moment that this visas mandate US level salaries

      Most of the problem isn't that we can ignore it, but that the companies in question as well as Congress does ignore it. The entire program only exists because it acts as a loophole by which employers can pay sub-standard wages, not competitive wages, despite what you might wish or the actual law might require before you get into the contingencies and loopholes. The biggest of these is that "competitive wage" is defined by occupation and region, not actual job function. You want a lead programmer at journeyman prices? Not a problem in the law.

      H1B visas are by law only allowed when there is not a US citizen with comparable skills at the local prevailing wage. The prevalence of H1B visas requires one to believe that the US job market is just so great that it's difficult for employers to find qualified applicants.

      As well as the advantages which directly affect the US wage:

      Off-the books overtime. Denial of legally required benefits. Hiring under one firm and working under another. These workers can be sent back the minute they cease to be a bargain.

      There are plenty of US workers for what are mostly entry-level programming positions. The companies don't want H1B visas because, in accordance with the intent of the law, they can't find suitable candidates at market value. They want them precisely because they want them below market value.

    2. Re: H1B working as intended. by St.Creed · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The market for talent is a global one, you should be grateful companies decide to stay in the US, where they pay taxes, instead of moving operations elsewhere, as many have done.

      Western salaries have been historically too high, a global economy will correct this, wether one likes it or not

      Funny. Whenever CEO's tell us the market for talent is a global one, they mean that they should get paid more, or else they leave. Whenever it's about us, it somehow means we have to make do with less, or else they kick us out.

      As a freelancer, I've found that it's exactly the opposite: I get hired for jobs in other countries because the market for workers is global. But CEO's are CEO because they are tied into the political superstructure of a country. Once they leave, they usually find that their whole network is gone and that is most of their value.

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      Therefore, by the (faulty) logic you're using, you're just a cow with a keyboard - osu-neko (2604)
  8. $44.4K fine for Big Blue? by bobthesungeek76036 · · Score: 4, Funny

    I've seen strip club tabs higher than that...

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    Karma: Bad
  9. Re:Free market anyone? by hpoul · · Score: 3, Insightful

    wouldn't it be a more of a free market, if companies could hire world wide, without control of the government (ie. without the restriction to hire US employees)?
    I think arguing with "free market" for preventing immigration is really a bit strange.. so in a free market IT wages would significantly drop, because there is no shortage of good educated IT personal willing to immigrate .. (until the wages aren't high enough any more to be motivation enough obviously..)

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  10. Computer programming is not IT! by CommanderK · · Score: 5, Funny

    Both the summary and some commenters make the same huge mistake by putting IT people and programmers in the same bucket. A C++ programmer has completely different skills and responsibilities from a PHP/HTML programmer, who has a completely different job from a network/system administrator. The latter could be considered IT (and their pay is usually lower), whereas the former are developers (requiring extra creativity and more skill, and are better paid). In my experience working in the Bay Area, there really is a shortage of competent high-skill systems developers/programmers (the kind of guys who design Google and Facebook infrastructure, like Big Table), but not a shortage of PHP or Java programmers or sysadmins.

  11. Re:That would be the final nail in the coffin by dkleinsc · · Score: 4, Informative

    Unions in the USA all crawled into bed with the Democrats decades ago

    Specifically, unions started really supporting Democrats in the 1930's, for a very good reason: The Democrats had just passed the National Labor Relations Act, which among other things gave unions the legal right to exist. For the 50 years or so before that, union leaders were operating under the constant threat of being beaten to a pulp or shot by company goons, and the unions tended to put their political support not behind either Democrats or Republicans but instead behind Socialists.

    The Democratic Party continued to support organized labor up until the late 1980's or so, when they decided that the unions were basically a lost cause, and Bill Clinton abandoned unions in favor of corporate funding of the Democratic Party. Unions have never recovered either the political clout or the membership and funding they once had. And totally coincidentally, a worker today makes less (adjusted for inflation) than they did in 1987, despite the fact that the current American worker is more productive than any other worker that has ever existed on the planet.

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