New York City Considers Articulated Subway Cars

Hugh Pickens DOT Com writes "Many of New York City's subway cars are well past their prime and due for fleet replacement, most strikingly those on the C line, known by their model number, R32, and for the tin-can siding that will continue rolling beneath Eighth Avenue for at least a few more years. Now the NYT reports that transit planners have urged the Metropolitan Transportation Authority to consider articulated subway cars for any future fleet upgrades. Articulated cars, already adopted in cities like Berlin, Paris, and Toronto, have no doors between cars, allowing unrestricted flow throughout the length of the train that could increase capacity by 8 percent to 10 percent. Adam Lisberg, the authority's chief spokesman, says that increased capacity could also improve 'dwell time' — the period during which a train is stopped in a station, often because of overcrowding — and allow more trains to run. 'We're one of the largest systems in the world that doesn't do it,' says Richard Barone, the director of transportation programs at the Regional Plan Association. 'Our trains don't function right now to allow people to circulate.' Articulation also has the benefit of making empty trains feel safer. By allowing passengers the ability to move between cars easily and to see passengers throughout the train, the isolation that can sometimes feel dangerous on a late-night subway is less of an issue, simply because the whole train is joined together like one huge car. But not everyone embraces the idea. Elizabeth Kubany who works in the Flatiron district, expressed a fondness for the current configuration, suggesting that the separated cars were more 'intimate' binding passenger to passenger in an increasingly antisocial age. Then she reconsidered. 'You don't really want to be intimate with people on the train.'"

Comments

American Exceptionalism and Moral Superiority

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, I do! I find it quite amusing that America was schooled by Putin on exceptionalism.

For a country one who claims to boast its own national exceptionalism and moral superiority. Yet, forgets to mention they are the holders of the largest national debt known to man. If you ask me. I find this fact hardly exceptional or superior ... heck it's not even moral!

Re:American Exceptionalism and Moral Superiority

[Anonymous Coward]

How could you even do this to me? In order for you to do such a thing to one such as I, you need to vanish right this yoctosecondness! Why do you continue to obstruct my path? Must I erase your very existence, or will you change your foul ways? I'll show you what for!

[WOMAN VAGINA], [TRANNY'S GREEN], [DIRTY MASTURBATION], [PATHETIC STRIP], [KELDO PETITE CERVIX], [GOBBLER ATOMIC], [CHOCOLATE FATSO STEAMY], [LOLICON PROSTITUTE], [IMPREGNATE FUDGE PEEING], [SPRAYS BRYCE RANDY], [PURPLE POOPYHOLE SLUT]

Re:American Exceptionalism and Moral Superiority

[Big Hairy Ian]

These kinds of train are much better on the whole (Transport For London had the London Overground fitted with these) however one problem is beggars can now do the length of the train with ease. However, this is a minor issue and the benefits of the trains far outway it.

Re:American Exceptionalism and Moral Superiority

[mjwalshe]

Yes some of the tube lines in London (metropolitan and circle) have these now much nicer than the older stock and the new trams in cities like Nottingham have have this as well.

Re:American Exceptionalism and Moral Superiority

[Anonymous Coward]

However, this is a minor issue and the benefits of the trains far outway it.

You should be ashamed to post on a nerd site, Ian. Get your GED.

Re:American Exceptionalism and Moral Superiority

[Deadstick]

Yes...we have nonarticulated cars on the Denver Light Rail, and it's common to have standing room only on one car and plenty of seating on the next.

(Semiarticulated, actually, because each car bends in the middle.)

Re:American Exceptionalism and Moral Superiority

[znanue]

Yes, I do! I find it quite amusing that America was schooled by Putin on exceptionalism.

For a country one who claims to boast its own national exceptionalism and moral superiority. Yet, forgets to mention they are the holders of the largest national debt known to man. If you ask me. I find this fact hardly exceptional or superior ... heck it's not even moral!

It fits my definition of exceptional.

The New New York is Screw York

[gelfling]

Outgoing mayor Mao Tse Bloomberg famously quipped this past weekend he's HAPPY NYC is UNaffordable because it means lots of people want to live here. If anyone thinks New York is going to do anything for the groundlings who don't ride to work in the back of limos you are delusional.

Re:The New New York is Screw York

[Anonymous Coward]

He should do what Berne Switzerland does (or did) - charge $300,000 just to move there.I don't remember if it only applied to foreigners or to everyone.

Any Swiss out there to confirm?

Re:The New New York is Screw York

[MightyYar]

Most people - yes, even Wall Street - use public transit in NYC. The subway is way faster than a car. There is a reason that they are building a new 2nd Ave line, and it isn't for the poor people.

My issue with the trains is that we are in 2013 and they are still putting new cars out with conductors! Yes, a person paid (and paid more than a cop IIRC) to stand in a little booth and close the doors on the train. I won't even get into why they still have drivers, they can't even get rid of the conductor.

Re:The New New York is Screw York

[Anonymous Coward]

He is such a douchebag. I love his line about school overcrouding: "it's a nice problem to have that our kids want to go to school".

http://gawker.com/michael-bloomberg-says-lack-of-affordable-housing-is-a-1448327223

Re:The New New York is Screw York

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

Huh. Standard economic theory blames high prices on artificial shortages in housing due to rent control laws making it unappealing for investors to make new buildings. Hence only rich high-end housing, which pleb laws don't apply to, gets built. It's a problem with a known, but politically impossible solution.

Re:The New New York is Screw York

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't let a man do a machines job.

Re:The New New York is Screw York

[jkonrath]

They have conductors so people won't get stuck in the doors and dragged to their deaths.

They could make the doors automatic, and re-open when someone or one of their body parts is in the way of a door closing, which they do now, but without the conductor there to yell at people to get the hell in or out of the car, the trains would never, ever leave the station. There will always be that one last person trying to get in.

Re:The New New York is Screw York

[MightyYar]

They have conductors so people won't get stuck in the doors and dragged to their deaths.

Were you in prison for 50 years or something? This is a solved problem.

They could make the doors automatic, and re-open when someone or one of their body parts is in the way of a door closing, which they do now, but without the conductor there to yell at people to get the hell in or out of the car, the trains would never, ever leave the station.

Why is this problem unique to NYC?

Re:The New New York is Screw York

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd call Bloomberg a piece of shit, but I realized that shit is useful. Shit creates jobs. Shit can be used in fecal transplants to cure diseases or to diagnose someone's health. It would be in insult to shit to compare it to Bloomberg (except for his shit which is probably the most useful part of him--he sells it to 1%ers who like to rub in on their noses).

Oh, in other news, Bloomberg is planning to arrest Banksy.

Re:The New New York is Screw York

[xaxa]

without the conductor there to yell at people to get the hell in or out of the car, the trains would never, ever leave the station. There will always be that one last person trying to get in.

In London they have someone standing on the platform to do that (shout at people). They are in a much better position: they can see the whole train, and can walk along the platform if necessary.

Also, they're only at busier stations, and only when it's busy.

Re:The New New York is Screw York

[kyrsjo]

This isn't a (huge) problem in most other subway systems I've used. Never been to NY tough, so maybe people are completely different there - but I would suspect not.

Having frequent departures also helps this - missing a train isn't a big deal if there is another one comming in ~5 minutes or so, worse if you have to wait 15 or more.

Re:The New New York is Screw York

[DexterIsADog]

...Never been to NY tough, so maybe people are completely different there...

I was born and raised in NY, so I can tell you; if you come to NY, you had *better* come tough.

Re:The New New York is Screw York

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you ever been on a NY subway in rush hour?
If not (which it seems) they you have no idea what you're talking about.

Re:The New New York is Screw York

[Anonymous Coward]

UNIONS make it too expensive to upgrade most public transportation systems in the US!
BART workers are on strike now. they make about $90,000 each and are upset because they will incur an additional $90 per month in benefit costs under Obamacare.

BART Wages:
https://github.com/enjalot/bart/blob/master/data/bart-comp-all.csv

Re:The New New York is Screw York

[JustOK]

Nein! They are all in a meeting. Until Wednesday. They can not be disturbed.

Re:The New New York is Screw York

[MightyYar]

I lived there for 5 years, and like most of NYC I took the subway. The conductor has no authority whatsoever, and simply throws the switch and maybe uselessly yells or makes a don't hold the doors announcement.

Why do you think that NYC cannot do what other transit agencies all over the world can do? Singapore is 100% automated (driver and doors) on their newer MRT lines. They even have 2 sets of doors in some of the stations.

Re:The New New York is Screw York

[MightyYar]

Yes, I would agree that unions are an impediment to automation upgrades. Capital budgets are also weird, with money often being directed by politicians and not managers. So the MTA might get money for new cars or even an additional line, but no money that can be used to improve signalling (or clean the stations... yuck!).

Re:The New New York is Screw York

[gelfling]

They've been 'building' the 2nd ave subway since 1962. 1957 really if you look at the original plans. It's like the flyover of 495 into the midtown tunnel which has been under 'construction and repairs' since 1966 and all they've managed to do so far is deploy road cones.

I guess no one remembers the debacle of the replacement IRT trains in the early 1980's when they contracted it to a Japanese firm and DAY ONE they discovered that Japanese seats are too narrow for big fat American asses and they were taken out of service for 2 years to replace the seats.

I guess no one remembers the Great 7 Train Improvement project which took the express line out of service for 7 years.

I guess no one remembers the articulated bus experiment where all these European articulated buses were bought to 'improve' things and within a year the few that hadn't completely broken down were taken out of service because it was too expensive to maintain them.

I guess no one remembers that IND and IRT trains are fundamentally different because IRT trains run in tunnels that are too narrow for cars in the rest of the system. This is why everything has to be done in parallel, duplicated.

Re:The New New York is Screw York

[Wookact]

While they do have high salaries, it looks like the drivers and agents make around 60k. http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2013/10/09/phil-matier-plenty-willing-to-work-for-current-bart-wages/

Re:The New New York is Screw York

[Anonymous Coward]

Keep reading to find the real salaries... $60,000 base is sometimes $200,000

Re:The New New York is Screw York

[Runaway1956]

Those tough talking weenies are always so amusing. "My neighborhood is the baddest in the world" but they've never been anywhere to compare it to.

Re:The New New York is Screw York

[Anonymous Coward]

In other other news, Bloomberg, who's worth over $30 billion, just received a $1 million prize for being an outstanding philanthropist.

Re:The New New York is Screw York

[Anonymous Coward]

NYC is the US's Moscow. You need to earn seven digits a year if you don't want to sleep five roomies to a 500 square foot efficiency. There are people who pay $1000/month for a door over a closet to sleep, no bathroom, nothing else.

As for tough neighborhoods, I'll be happy to introduce people who think they are "New York tough" to some of my acquaintances from other countries who have endured real hardship and brutality, not something from "West Side Story." Riker's is nasty, but compare that to jails south of the US border, and one would consider that place palatial afterwards.

Re:The New New York is Screw York

[Anonymous Coward]

Singapore now has 2 sets of doors on "all" the stations. Every station has a door on the platform itself as well as a second set on the train it self. This was done due to rush hour traffic which increased the risk of people falling on to the tracks.

Re:The New New York is Screw York

[MightyYar]

It has the side effect (primary effect?) of letting them air-condition the stations. Very nice.

Re:The New New York is Screw York

[DexterIsADog]

It was a light comment, intended to be amusing. However, I was raised in NY, and *have* lived in lots of places. None tougher than NY, in the sense of difficult, i.e. expensive, large, etc., although also in physically intimidating.

Boston has its negatives, and Philly's up there, but neither one of them is quite as challenging to live in as NY.

Re:The New New York is Screw York

[steelfood]

This is a solved problem.

Is it? Is it a solved problem like, a human is a part of the solution, or is there some magical device that can determine your backpack straps (with the little notch at the end) haven't been caught in the doorway on your way out?

As recently as last year, I've seen video footage of people getting dragged by trains (in other systems, not NYC). You really think it would work on a system as busy as NYC? This is the system where some stations are so packed during rush hour that there are people standing from the wall to where their toes are at the edge of the platform. Imagine one person dragging all those other people...

In fact, during rush hour, there's additional transit workers standing at either end of the platforms just to make sure everybody's all the way in and no straps are hanging loosely out.

Re:The New New York is Screw York

[MightyYar]

A double-door system such as in Singapore would seem to address your concern.

Re:The New New York is Screw York

[steelfood]

They have this in NYC in rush hour too, again at busier stations (which are basically all of the 4-track, express stations). But try doing this on the 4/5/6 at Union Sq. and you'll have another thing coming. Just to give you a picture, the station's curve is so sharp that there are extending floors along certain points of the platform that roll out to meet the train after it's stopped, and then roll back before the train can leave.

Oh, and if you do something for one line, you have to do it for every other line, because every line runs on the same ROW as at least one other line for some time, and then may split and possibly meet yet another line. Only the 7 is not connected to the rest of the system in this manner (there is one crossover that can only ever be used for maintenance purposes), and the L has the next fewest such points. This is primarily why experimental things are done on the L first (the 7 is elevated and has this complex express-local switching BS while the L is straightforward).

Re:The New New York is Screw York

[jbr439]

FWIW, Vancouver's "Skytrain" has neither drivers nor conductors.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SkyTrain_%28Vancouver%29

Re:The New New York is Screw York

[Patch86]

The London Underground has "dumb" automatic doors- that is, they slam close with considerable force and pay no attention to whether there are any limbs trapped in them. There are no conductors and rarely staff on the platform. Nobody ever seems to get dragged to their death. I think the doors have an "emergency release" on them for "being dragged to death" situations, but I'm not actually sure...

People are grown ups. I'm sure the inhabitants of New York, of all places, don't need to be treated like babies.

Re:The New New York is Screw York

[steelfood]

Have you studied the NYC subway system at all? Platform doors only work if there's one train of one type running on that line. NYC subway doesn't just have multiple lines all running on the same ROW, there are something like up to five different models of rolling stock running on each system that can and often do run on that particular track. The oldest cars dates from the 70's. And in case you didn't know, the doors do not line up between train models. Hell, some configurations run 11 cars while others run 10. And we're still talking about the same line here.

Re:The New New York is Screw York

[Anonymous Coward]

Then again, it introduces other problems.

Re:The New New York is Screw York

[steelfood]

Technically, there is a redundancy in the jobs of the train operator and the conductor. The operator can manage the doors just as capably as the conductor, especially when the station has a CCTV to monitor each car from the outside. In fact, the operator often helps out during rush hour.

The conductor, however, has two much more subtle roles:

1) The conductor manages the train while it's operating. The train operator can make announcements and fiddle with other things while the train is stopped at a station. the train operator should not be making announcements while simultaneously operating the train. Nor should the train operator be fooling around with the automated announcements or whatnot. You would want your train operator to be focused on operating the train too, no?

2) The conductor handles queries from passengers. The conductor is the public-facing individual of the train crew. The conductor handles everything from puzzled tourists (which there are a lot of) to sick passengers to any crime (for which they can only radio in). While the operator can do this duty too, the operator sits at the front of the train, which is fairly difficult to reach from the other end. Yes, the back of the train has significantly degraded service even with two crew members, but it's not as bad as having to run to the front for anything.

You can argue to remove the operator for automated trains (CBTB). There are downsides to this too, but not nearly as much as the conductor.

You claimed to have lived here for 5 years, but it's obvious your knowledge of the subway system is superficial. Basically, more than a tourist, less than a local (not a native, just a local), i.e. in that gray area where you're competent enough to do something but not enough to know what it is you're doing. I say you probably haven't ridden in more than five lines in the entire time you're here, one of which is your commute, and none of it involves waiting for a train in Midtown during rush hour. If you actually were familiar with the subway system, you'd know that the conductor is the one position that's not expendable, and that platform doors are not possible in most if not all of the system.

Re:The New New York is Screw York

[MightyYar]

Thank you. That was awesome.

Re:The New New York is Screw York

[Anonymous Coward]

Obviously they need to be replaced with superconductors!

Re:The New New York is Screw York

[MightyYar]

So how long does the city get out of it's trains? 30-40 years? Standardize on a door pitch and move on with life. In 30 years maybe they can catch up with Singapore - shorter if they use their current running stock as a template. It's amazing how a bunch of smart people can be so stupid when they all get together and pursue multiple conflicting interests.

The crazy thing is that the city actually had an unbelievably complex, completely automated line way back, but it caught fire and that was the end of it.

Re:The New New York is Screw York

[MightyYar]

1) The conductor manages the train while it's operating. The train operator can make announcements and fiddle with other things while the train is stopped at a station. the train operator should not be making announcements while simultaneously operating the train. Nor should the train operator be fooling around with the automated announcements or whatnot. You would want your train operator to be focused on operating the train too, no?

First of all, there shouldn't be a train operator, either. But, this being NYC with a strong MTU and an inability to maintain - let alone upgrade - infrastructure, the best I can hope for is a mastery of door closing. Announcements on the newer trains are automated (e.g. the "Disney" 4-5-6 trains). Other announcements (usually useless), like "the train is stopped waiting on traffic ahead" can happen when, well, the train is stopped. If the driver gets distracted, then the train is stopped and no harm comes.

2) The conductor handles queries from passengers. The conductor is the public-facing individual of the train crew. The conductor handles everything from puzzled tourists (which there are a lot of) to sick passengers to any crime (for which they can only radio in). While the operator can do this duty too, the operator sits at the front of the train, which is fairly difficult to reach from the other end. Yes, the back of the train has significantly degraded service even with two crew members, but it's not as bad as having to run to the front for anything.

For what they pay those conductors, you can put a cop on every single train.

I say you probably haven't ridden in more than five lines in the entire time you're here, one of which is your commute, and none of it involves waiting for a train in Midtown during rush hour.

I'd suggest the opposite is true of you - you seem to have little experience outside of NYC, where subway conductors are pretty much unheard of. I rode enough to see the conductors as useless given modern technology. I was certainly transient, but I spent a fair amount of time on the train and buses. We sold our cars before we moved there. My experience with the outer boroughs was limited to mostly weekend trips, but I definitely had enough quality time with the Manhattan rush hour.

I was offering up the platform door as one solution, but it is hardly the only one. Besides NYC and Toronto, are there any conductors left in the world on subway trains? This strongly suggests that they are unnecessary. I don't pretend to be an expert on subway systems, but conductors seem to be anachronistic.

Re:The New New York is Screw York

[AC-x]

The doors on the London Underground do have sensors, they clamp down hard on anything in their way but if they can't close completely then automated systems stop the train from moving off and after a few seconds the doors reopen.

I assume they clamp down on the hapless passenger for a few seconds to try and discourage them from blocking the doors again in the future!

Re:The New New York is Screw York

[AC-x]

On the London Underground the job of telling passengers who block the doors off was delegated to the driver years ago.

Re:The New New York is Screw York

[ryanov]

Beyond all the rest of it, what kind of person sits around and thinks "the thing that really bugs me is that this guy has a job"?

Re:The New New York is Screw York

[ryanov]

Please get a job that isn't bitching about other people who have found a way to make a decent wage in this world.

Re: The New New York is Screw York

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm a vehicle engineer that has worked on NYC-subway, MTA, every other east coast agency and a few of the west coast.

There is zero technical reason for the operatoring engineer in NYC... It's purely a combination of union involvement and 'feel goods'.

Onboard crew are mostly useless and overpaid but, on a system this extensive, they are necessary for those rare events. That said, we'd get more bang for the buck by replacing the conductors with cops who knew wheeee the emergency dump valves / stops were. The rest of the conductors tasks are better handled off the train by station agents, and on the train by automated announcements.

Re:The New New York is Screw York

[MightyYar]

Personally, what got me thinking about it was when they went on strike and left all of us carless residents to our own devices. When they justified their job as being a warm body on the train that can answer questions and prevent crime, I nearly flipped because they make more than cops, who would be better suited to both tasks and who would be more accessible.

Re:The New New York is Screw York

[Tore S B]

Most people - yes, even Wall Street - use public transit in NYC. The subway is way faster than a car. There is a reason that they are building a new 2nd Ave line, and it isn't for the poor people.

My issue with the trains is that we are in 2013 and they are still putting new cars out with conductors! Yes, a person paid (and paid more than a cop IIRC) to stand in a little booth and close the doors on the train. I won't even get into why they still have drivers, they can't even get rid of the conductor.

Have you considered the expense to the economy of a 15-minute NYC subway delay during rush hour? If a person can help any one of the bazillion little situations that arise, then the numbers out of the red pretty quickly.

Re:The New New York is Screw York

[MightyYar]

All I can say is that I can only find one other transit agency in the world with conductors on their subways, and that is Toronto. NYC is not the only busy transit system in the world, even if it is the busiest in the US.

Re:The New New York is Screw York

[ryanov]

Guess what: it's not all about you. This treatment of public employees really angers me, and it happens whenever public servants decide enough is enough. Do you think if you were working a job to be able to pay your bills, you'd be interested in hearing "shut up and get back to work, I have stuff to do?" or be thinking "I know I have to feed my family, but how will Steve get to work?! Nevermind!"

How this works with police officers and other essential folks is that there are rules to protect the employees because they, basically, can't walk off the job because they serve the public good. Same sometimes with transit workers. If you want people to be at work no matter what, there has to be something else that takes the place of the right to strike.

I don't know about your salary numbers and don't have the time to go into them, but they almost always take into account people who've been working there a very long time, and some that have specialized skills. I see teachers salary numbers and they almost never reflect the reality.

Re:The New New York is Screw York

[MightyYar]

The subway is not a jobs program. If positions are unnecessary, the public should not be burdened with the cost.

This treatment of public employees really angers me

In NY State, transit workers are not allowed to strike. They are paid far above market wages, so I think that is a reasonable compromise and something to consider when you work there. You are right, it's not about me - it's about the millions of people the few transit workers and terrible MTA management put in the position that they did. It's worth noting that the poor were disproportionately affected. During the strike, Manhattanites could walk, bike, or car pool easily enough. Most of the working poor live in the outer boroughs, and they were in a much worse spot. Me? I fired up my laptop and telecommuted - so yeah, it wasn't about me.

I don't know about your salary numbers and don't have the time to go into them,

I suspect you take the 5 whole minutes it takes to Google and compare the average conductor salary (over $60,000) to the average police officer salary (just under $60,000). Considering that you could put rookies on the trains at a whopping $37k each, you could actually save money by ensuring public safety with a cop on every single train. This is only salary - I concede that I did not calculate benefits.

Re:The New New York is Screw York

[aestrivex]

Most people - yes, even Wall Street - use public transit in NYC. The subway is way faster than a car. There is a reason that they are building a new 2nd Ave line, and it isn't for the poor people.

Not entirely for the poor people, but it's not like SAS Phase 2 goes through East Harlem or anything.

My issue with the trains is that we are in 2013 and they are still putting new cars out with conductors! Yes, a person paid (and paid more than a cop IIRC) to stand in a little booth and close the doors on the train. I won't even get into why they still have drivers, they can't even get rid of the conductor.

Yeah, it's almost as if there were a crazy transit workers union that keeps on winning arbitration cases to make it impossible to get old and deprecated work rules removed.

Re:The New New York is Screw York

[ryanov]

The general public thinks public servants are really important when they're "not doing their job," but look for their support on any given day when they're just being treated unfairly and it's a big fuck you. Well, fuck you all back. How you treat the people that "work for you" says a lot about you.

Googling for 5 whole minutes is not research.

Re:The New New York is Screw York

[MightyYar]

How you treat the people that "work for you" says a lot about you.

You sound like you have an entitlement issue. I cannot help you with that.

Googling for 5 whole minutes is not research.

No, but it would confirm my numbers.

Re:The New New York is Screw York

[MightyYar]

Yeah, it's almost as if there were a crazy transit workers union that keeps on winning arbitration cases to make it impossible to get old and deprecated work rules removed.

Yes, the joys of efficiency.

Re:The New New York is Screw York

[aestrivex]

One thing you haven't mentioned is that the IRT and second-system tracks are different grade tracks and cannot be shared even in principle unless the entire system were reconstructed (that is, all the tracks were relaid for one half or the other). Thus the transition from doing something (for instance the countdown clocks) on the IRT system and then doing it for the entire rest of the second system, is quite extensive.

Re:The New New York is Screw York

[aestrivex]

Another underestmation of the importance of capital construction as a maintenance cost....

Re:The New New York is Screw York

[aestrivex]

So publically employed transit workers should have the right to determine what services are necessary and viable to the running of a transit operation? In new york, that has been true for the last twenty years, and the result is that the union is now out of control and functioning as just another a money sieve for a taxpayer funded agency that desperately needs money, despite the state being broke and cutting its funding over and over that is specifically earmarked for the MTA.

Re:The New New York is Screw York

[aestrivex]

This would be a reasonable point, if indeed the economy were functioning in a rational way. In a rational world, this economy would be taxed in such a way that sustainable maintenance and capital construction of the MTA could function. As this has not been the case for many, many years, your point about the economic expense of a 15 minute delay on the subway -- which is relatively minor considering the low duration of the delay -- becomes warped out of context.

Re:The New New York is Screw York

[ryanov]

Who plans to advocate for transit workers if not their union (that is made up of transit workers, by the way, not a separate entity)? Certainly not you.

People could already move car to car

[Anonymous Coward]

The doors are there. The transit authority just doesn't allow people to use them because most people are too stupid to use them safely.

On Septa and Metro North you can move between cars while the train is stopped to facilitate boarding, and on Amtrak you can move between cars at will.

Re:People could already move car to car

[LoRdTAW]

Back in highschool I had a friend who was one of those kids who was obsessed with the subway. His neighbor was an MTA employee for the subway and let him examine the key for the doors. The lock simply takes a zigzag shaped skeleton key with a square rejection notch cut in the center. He took a thick nail, cut the head off and then put a slit on each end. He then brazed a piece of sheet metal on each end of the key, one side for the key part and the other end for a handle. He bent the key into the shape of the lock using a clay form he pressed into an actual lock and filed out the rejection notch. The bend wasn't even square but rounded as all it needed to do was fit through the key hole. It worked perfectly and he made me one as well, I still have it around somewhere. I used to impress my friends when we wanted to switch cars and I opened the door with my key :) You just had to be sure no MTA employee or cop saw you.

Re:People could already move car to car

[Samantha Wright]

A big point of articulated cars is that the space between the cars is usable passenger space for standing. The accessibility of the doors is unimportant when it comes to train capacity, and vastly inferior to articulated cars when it comes to loading/emptying times.

Re:People could already move car to car

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not sure why they'd prevent people in NYC from doing so. You can move between cars on BART and the LA Metro, both of which service a large number of people and nobody ever getting hurt. Maybe east coasters really are that stupid.

Re:People could already move car to car

[xaxa]

Is it possible to open the doors in an emergency?

The Underground trains in London that don't yet have articulated carriages simply have a red danger sign telling people not to use them -- except in an emergency. It's very rare to see someone using them, as the danger is pretty obvious (adjacent carriages can bounce around quite a bit, relative to each other).

Re:People could already move car to car

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem with articulated cars is if there is a problem with a single car, the whole train is unusable. You also can't extend or shorten trains to accommodate differing rider numbers.

Here, it's not unusual to see ten car BART trains at peak hours and only four car trains when there is less demand. It saves on energy and wear and tear.

Re:People could already move car to car

[jkonrath]

Yes, they can automatically be unlocked in an emergency.

Re:People could already move car to car

[Anonymous Coward]

BART is indefensibly horrible.

Re:People could already move car to car

[n1ywb]

Funny I see people move between subway cars all the time

Re:People could already move car to car

[bossk538]

I really don't see where the articulated cars save will save loading/emptying times. Train cars during rush hour are so packed that most of the time to empty is spent on passengers having to push their way through the crowd to the nearest door. If they are in the space between trains, there are that many more bodies to get past. Also, you would need much more than an 8-10% increase in capacity to see much of an improvement. Train cars still will be sardine cans.

Re:People could already move car to car

[kyrsjo]

Yeah. I've visited SF a few times (living in Europe), and the transit there is a sad joke. BART must be the worlds slowest subway system, CalTrain is a diesel train crossing everywhere at street level (making HOOOOT HOOOOT HOOOOOOOOOOT noises as it does), the highways are generally clogged, and inside SF its even worse. Only good thing is that CalTrain alows you to bring your bike - most sensible method of transportation inside SF, and the Marguerite shuttle network around Stanford/SLAC, which also allows you to bring a bike - excelent when you're working at SLAC on the top of the hill, while living in Menlo at the bottom of it, and the SLAC shuttle stops running before I normally leave work...

Re:People could already move car to car

[xaxa]

Here, it's not unusual to see ten car BART trains at peak hours and only four car trains when there is less demand. It saves on energy and wear and tear.

I doubt the effort to shorten the trains would be worthwhile in NYC. Isn't it always going to be busy enough that it's worth running the whole train?

(It's certainly the case in London. Some of the oldest (1970s) trains have driving cabs in the middle, i.e. are two trains coupled together. It's a long, long time since they ran trains with less than the maximum number of carriages. I'm not sure they ever were -- I can't find a reference.)

Re:People could already move car to car

[Anonymous Coward]

You can take your bike on BART too.

The best metro system I have seen is in Taipei. Those trains are spotless, run fast and on time. The problem is that most people in Taiwan don't seem to believe in deodorant, which makes for some nasty smells.

Re:People could already move car to car

[jeremyp]

Some of the trains on the Circle Line are now articulated. I've only been on one, but it was much better than the old way. Of course, that might partly be due to the fact that the stock was brand new. There even seemed to be air con.

Re: People could already move car to car

[Anonymous Coward]

Eh, why not just use the handle to open the door?

Re:People could already move car to car

[war4peace]

In Bucharest, most of the subway cars have been replaced with articulated ones. I love them. There's less noise, more space, easier way to access; you don't care where you get up, because you can move inside for the whole length of the train. You can tell someone to meet you in the subway and they can hop in without having to figure out which wagon you're in first. Also, during off-peak hours, if someone in a different wagon faints or has a health issue, you can move across to help them. There's no such thing as overcrowding anymore. There's less noise.

Wear and tear is a non-issue. It depends more on the materials used rather than time. Shitty materials used on non-articulated cars will wear faster than good materials used on articulated cars.

As for "if there is a problem with a single car, the whole train is unusable" - this is totally false. They're just as modular; maybe it takes 15 minutes more to detach one wagon, but that rarely, if ever, happens. It's been years since they were introduced and there were exactly 4 malfunctions that required a train to stop between stations, and they were all due to the underside of the cars, not the articulations.

Extending trains does not exist around here. They are all same length. It's actually helpful because you can wait for it anywhere you want, you don't have to run towards a side because the length is smaller.

Re:People could already move car to car

[malakai]

Not all are locked. It wasn't illegal to switch cars on the subway until 2005. And then it became a 75 dollar fine.

The ones that are locked are the newer models which the locks can be controlled by the conductor. Also, only the trains that have extreme turns or spots where there is a very large gap between the cars, get locked.

The 1/2/3 line weren't locked last time I hit a car with no AC in the summer.

Also, on the 1 line for south ferry you have to move between cars because only the first 5 reach the platform... Not sure how they handle this these days.

Re:People could already move car to car

[Samantha Wright]

The benefit is that it means there are no longer places where you can get trapped with only one exit. With separated cars, it's a lot easier to get stuck at the end of the car behind someone slow-moving or immobile; articulated cars give you another exit. This is mostly a problem at stops with light traffic during rush hour; everyone gets on down town and then has to wait for a minute at the next stop while a few people crammed in the back trickle toward the doors.

Re:People could already move car to car

[Samantha Wright]

In Toronto all of the platforms are just over six cars long, so there's really no point in going for a longer train—instead we make the much lower-effort/lower-energy decision to just run trains more or less frequently. (And while the T35A08/Rocket's cars aren't detachable, other articulated trains can be.)

Re:People could already move car to car

[Anonymous Coward]

Not always. In NYC, it depends on the line, and the model of the train that arrives in the station. New cars, maybe, but older cars maybe not, and even older cars, well... possibly?

There's a version of the R train, which has locked doors, and they never seem to be unlocked. Are they controlled by the conductor? Who knows?

Anyway, never move between cars in front of a cop. They will write a ticket for about $50, or worse yet, a summons to appear before a judge who will make to take the day off from work to wait in line an pay the $50 in person.

People smoke crack between cars. I've seen it happen.

Re:People could already move car to car

[Ardipithecus]

Obsolete cars will be replaced anyway.

Existing cars in good working order could be upgraded; it could be as "simple" (remembering that it's always easier said than done) as providing an articulated connector between the cars and removing the doors.

Re:People could already move car to car

[rasmusbr]

The modern solution to that is to buy train sets that are half as long as the platforms. That way you can run full length trains during normal hours and half length trains when demand is expected to be low.

Re:People could already move car to car

[RDW]

On one today, for only the second time. Still had that 'new train' smell. Definitely nicer, though probably even more popular with buskers, pickpockets and street preachers.

Re:People could already move car to car

[Anonymous Coward]

Even though all the doors say they're locked, in my experience (at least along the A line) none of them ever are. The signs saying they're locked for your safety seem to be there mostly just to discourage people from walking between cars.

Re:People could already move car to car

[steelfood]

You'll get a ticket if you're caught going between cars. And depending on the train type, they can be locked.

It's also quite unsafe. The subway is not a smooth ride and the gap is fairly large. If you don't know what to expect when, one misstep and you'll be less a leg or more.

Re:People could already move car to car

[Anonymous Coward]

Metropolitan line's been articulated since the Olympics. Yes, air conditioning, automated door closing when stuck at the platform but you can just hit the button to open the set closest to you, reasonably comfy seats, more head room - spared only some expense!

Re:People could already move car to car

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, in the London Underground, the articulated trains are made up of modular elements that can be swapped out. It seems to be a slightly bigger hassle, but it's certainly not that much of a problem.

Re:People could already move car to car

[theshowmecanuck]

Yeah and it's really cool standing in the aisle at the back of train, looking towards the front and watching it bend from the inside as you go from Union Station onto the University Ave or Yonge Street lines. Don't know why, but I like it.

Re:People could already move car to car

[JanneM]

Osaka (where I live) and Tokyo both have multiple subway and local train systems, by multiple companies and none of them have chosen to lengthen or shorten sets in response to demand. Local and rapid trains may have different number of cars and the frequency will vary throughout the day but the set length is always the same. I guess the extra work and complexity is not worth it.

Re:People could already move car to car

[Anonymous Coward]

That's because Japs are fucking idiots.

Re:People could already move car to car

[LoRdTAW]

I lived a block from the A train in Queens and I do remember some doors were locked, not all but some. Its like they simply forgot to unlock them. Also there was another train I used to take a lot, think it was the F from school to the Village in manhattan. I remember those doors being locked.

Re:People could already move car to car

[AC-x]

Articulated cars could be grouped, say cars of 4 articulated carriages each meaning you could have 4, 8 or 12 carriages per train. Not sure if anyone does this though.

Re:People could already move car to car

[aestrivex]

They handle this the same as in the olden days. Of course, this is primarily due to Hurricane Sandy, which effectively destroyed the new South Ferry station further down the battery which was rebuilt and opened in the late 2000s. When that station was destroyed, service was rerouted to the old outer loop just to turn around, and months afterwards passenger service in the outer loop station was resumed.

Then she reconsidered again

[Anonymous Coward]

"Some of the best sex I've ever had was on the C line at night. That hobo watching us made it so hot."

Re:Then she reconsidered again

[Anonymous Coward]

My sister lives in NYC and she confirms this. She's told me twice already she sees hobos jerking off on a regular basis as soon as she passes the turnstiles.

-- Ethanol-fueled

Re:Then she reconsidered again

[Anarchy24]

I can confirm this as true on ALL lines, at ALL times of the day.

Re:Then she reconsidered again

[Anonymous Coward]

"You don't really want to be intimate with people on the train."

Indeed, that would be a Risky Business.

Re:Then she reconsidered again

[K. S. Kyosuke]

You're the CCTV guy?

Re:Then she reconsidered again

[Anarchy24]

Nah - there's just lots of bums in the subway. Most smell like pee :-/

Re:Then she reconsidered again

[Anonymous Coward]

He's the hobo.

This is a bad idea and you should feel bad

[Anonymous Coward]

Try to run an articulated car from Clark St to Chamber St. You'll find that NYC subway has some pretty wicked curves and grades (sometimes at the same time) which would tear apart trains like this.

Re:This is a bad idea and you should feel bad

[TWX]

Can't be any worse than an articulated bus already deals with, and an articulated subway car isn't a lot more complicated in its joint. If anything the subway car should be easier to make, since it can be specially-designed for the track that it'll run on.

Re:This is a bad idea and you should feel bad

[Noryungi]

Paris has some very wicked curves and grades in its subway as well, and articulated cars are planned for a city-wide deployment within 5 - 10 years.

Make of that what you will.

Hint: articulated means precisely what it means - trains are able to curve almost 360 degrees.

Re:This is a bad idea and you should feel bad

[rwise2112]

Try to run an articulated car from Clark St to Chamber St. You'll find that NYC subway has some pretty wicked curves and grades (sometimes at the same time) which would tear apart trains like this.

There are articulated buses in many cities that can handle steeper grades and street corners with no problem. This shouldn't be an issue at all.

Re:This is a bad idea and you should feel bad

[Anonymous Coward]

Toronto has some pretty sharp curves around Union Station as well (90 degree bends) and the new new articulated subway cars handle them very well. It's really cool looking the entire length of the train and watching it snake around bends and corners.

Re:This is a bad idea and you should feel bad

[Anonymous Coward]

Paris Metro has some pretty sharp curves too. Lines 2, 5 and now 9 are happily running MF01 stock, even with quite a few sharp curves (although the sharpest are only in use without passengers, e.g. the Porte Dauphine with its 25-m radius). Line 7bis has been running MF88 stock for a long time, and even if that stock is now considered a failure, the curves per se are not the problem. And 7bis has wicked sharp curves in operational uses (that was the reason for building MF88 in the first place!)

Other lines/stocks with sharp curves: Line 1 (MP05, Bastille), Line 14 (MP89CA), Line 4 (MP89CC, sharp curves especially at Porte d'Orleans former terminal, but also at Les Halles deviation).

Nowadays, even commuter trains use this configuration: Z50000 stock all over North & East suburbs, fantastic machines now the teething problems are over (the hardware was rushed for reelection reasons). Z50000 displays a quite interesting concept: "shorter-therefore-wider" cars, which also boost space.

Not going articulated on busy lines is displaying unhealthy ludditism nowadays.

Re:This is a bad idea and you should feel bad

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem with Paris isn't the Metro, it's with all of the cowardly, frog and snail eating faggots. It's the gay capital of the world.

Re:This is a bad idea and you should feel bad

[Anonymous Coward]

at what radius?

Re:This is a bad idea and you should feel bad

[necro81]

One of the fun kicks in such situations is to stare down the length of the train while it is making such a sharp turn, and see the train curving this way and that. Coupled with the acceleration due to turning, the banking of the track, and the fact that you can't see much outside the windows, it can be exciting in its disorientation. It is, I think, akin to what it would be like to be in an rotating spacecraft, a la 2001

Re:This is a bad idea and you should feel bad

[Anonymous Coward]

the radius of your dick. zero

Re:This is a bad idea and you should feel bad

[Anonymous Coward]

NYC subway was built (especially downtown) to snake through existing, often undocumented, infrastructure. The path from wall st to chamber street is very sharp, very inclined. The existing articulation does not need to worry about enclosing the train when it is moving in 3 dimensions at the joint (the car infront can be pitched, turned and twisted in relation to the car behind).

Much of the system (particularly the IND) could handle this fine. Significant portions of the IRT, and a few section of BMT would need the trains to be able to articulate to handle pitch yaw and roll...

Re:This is a bad idea and you should feel bad

[Anonymous Coward]

M2 and M4 have end-loops built at a radius of 30m (standard UIC rail gauge but stock is 2.40m wide), and have articulated trains through that DAILY (but without passengers). One station, on M1, Bastille, has curves at a radius of 36 meters, with a fully automatic articulated train (no conductor no driver just the 'bot) each way every 70 seconds, fully loaded, thank you very much.

Re:This is a bad idea and you should feel bad

[jeremyp]

trains are able to curve almost 360 degrees.

What does that mean? Do you mean form a circle?

Re:This is a bad idea and you should feel bad

[Anonymous Coward]

M2 and M4 have end-loops

Who refers to them as M2 or such?

each way every 70 seconds, fully loaded, thank you very much.

Every 70 seconds, at Bastille? HAHAHA... you don't live in Paris, do you?

There's a reason I don't go there very often, even though it's on my way home.

Re:This is a bad idea and you should feel bad

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes. That's what he means. The trains are able to just about form a circle, their articulation is that impressive.

Next time, effin google it, mmmkay, rather than demonstrate to all that you don't even know what 360 degrees means.

Re:This is a bad idea and you should feel bad

[operagost]

It's in case Manhattan's original owners try to take it back.

Re:This is a bad idea and you should feel bad

[Anonymous Coward]

That's San Francisco, honey.

Re:This is a bad idea and you should feel bad

[Anonymous Coward]

Articulated cars actually allow for better train leaning, it's one of the benefits.

Re:This is a bad idea and you should feel bad

[Patch86]

The same is true of pretty much every underground railway in the world- NY isn't special. It's very old but it isn't the oldest (or significantly older than many others), it's very large but isn't the largest, it's very busy but not the busiest.

You should see some of the structural maps for the new London CrossRail line (a full-sized UK gauge railway that tunnels East-West across the city)- it has to snake over, under and around the London Underground lines, sewers, road tunnels, other rail tunnels, underground rivers...the thing's a feet of engineering genius. The fun thing is a lot of the stuff it's building around isn't even properly charted...

If all the other subways in the world can do it, I'm sure the NYC subway can do it too. It's only engineering, afterall.

Re:This is a bad idea and you should feel bad

[Anonymous Coward]

In Soviet Russia, subway articulates you!

Re:This is a bad idea and you should feel bad

[Anonymous Coward]

Learn to read, pole smoking faggot. San Francisco is the gay capital of the USA. Paris is the gay capital of the *world*. I know you have gay pride for your queer city, but it doesn't outdo Paris in gayness.

Cost is the key

[Chrisq]

If it cost the same it would be a no-brainer ... increased capacity for nothing. The key question is does it cost more, and if so is that the optimal way of increasing capacity for the money? If the same money would allow them to run an extra train each hour then that would be the best option.

Re:Cost is the key

[plover]

A big impediment to increasing capacity is the spacing required between trains for safety. Trains have to have adequate stopping distances between them, and rely on signals and blocks to prevent one train from running into the back of a stopped train. You can't just drop a few more trains onto the rails and expect them to fit in the gaps.

They can't simply add more cars to today's trains, because they can have only as many cars as they have platform space. It's possible these fully interconnected articulated cars would allow them to extend the train beyond the ends of the platform, as long as they only open the doors where it's safe, of course. But that would also increase the duration of stops, potentially reducing the number of trains.

Simply swapping cars for cars with more seats seems like the easiest and quickest approach to increasing capacity. But it's not much of an increase.

Re:Cost is the key

[xaxa]

If it cost the same it would be a no-brainer ... increased capacity for nothing. The key question is does it cost more, and if so is that the optimal way of increasing capacity for the money? If the same money would allow them to run an extra train each hour then that would be the best option.

Articulated trains is probably really cheap compared to the other options, assuming the easy things have been done (like lengthening the train where all the platforms are long enough).

Anyway, they should last 50 years, so it's a good investment.

(I've not used the NYC Metro for 15 years, but if it's anything like the overcrowded London Underground they'll be increasing capacity wherever they can. I was told off by a public announcement last week "would the man running down the escalator please be aware that now the upgrade work is completed, trains run every two minutes" [on the Victoria Line].)

Re:Cost is the key

[pmontra]

Actually "less seats" increases capacity: you can fit more people in a given space if they stand. Maybe you were hinting about smaller seats or more closely spaced? Anyway, we have these articulated carts in Milan since a few years ago and they are much more comfortable. They can accommodate a little more people because of the space where walls were, but not that much. They're also a time saver because you can walk inside the train to the exit closer to where you have to go when the train stops. Sometimes a few seconds matter. But the real great thing is that people can spread evenly over the train instead of getting stuffed in two or three overcrowded carts at the center of the train, where most people wait on the platform.

Re:Cost is the key

[n1ywb]

Is this a joke? Have you ever been on a NYC subway during rush hour? Standing room only buddy.

Re:Cost is the key

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe you were hinting about smaller seats or more closely spaced?

No, he means fewer seats.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2008/12/mbta_to_experim.html

Re:Cost is the key

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is it called rush hour when everything is so damned slow?

Re:Cost is the key

[rasmusbr]

My understanding i that the main problems tend to be:

1. Modern digital signalling performs significantly worse than old analog signalling. Yes, seriously.
2. A single train that spends a few seconds too many at each stop can easily disrupt the whole subway line much like a single bad driver on the highway can cause a traffic jam.

Re:Cost is the key

[plover]

One other point - this isn't primarily about increasing capacity. It's about replacing cars that have reached the end of their service life, and must be replaced anyway.

But yeah, they then have to do a bunch of cost benefit analysis. If the cost difference between a regular car and an articulated car is $3 million, and the car is expected to be in service for 50 years, and it costs $20,000/year more to maintain, and it can carry 5% more passengers, but the capacity is only used for six trips per day, and we assume fares are held in constant 2013 dollars, will the increased up front cost be covered by the increased revenue? (Show your work.)

Re:Cost is the key

[Anonymous Coward]

Seems unlikely any system would want a situation where does could open but there be no platform, i.e. have more cars than platform space, The seats in NYC are a bench so adding more seats does not seem possible even if it would increase capacity although I think removing all seats would increase capacity and rider frustration. Boston's Green Line has interconnected articulated cars which provide additional capacity, but I believe these trolley cars are shorter than NYC subway cars to the percent gain is probably greater.

Re:Cost is the key

[steelfood]

This is true, but not the case for all lines in NYC. A good chunk of the lines are operating under capacity, especially in the outer boroughs. The 6 is maybe the only one that's operating at capacity. The 7 is also at capacity but only if you consider the express and local together. It's limitation is actually the shitty 2-track situation at Times Square which hopefully will be fixed with the new Javits station (and more tracks means more capacity too).

Everything else is operating under capacity due to service cuts over the past five years. But there are also insertion issues when talking about capacity, and if you take those into account, then it gets a bit more complicated than just adding an extra train between 9:30 and 9:35 or something.

You bring up a good point about articulated cars being able to extend beyond the platform. This can only work with changes to the signals system, which currently handle only a certain length or less of train. Safe stopping distance and operating speeds and all that.

Re:Cost is the key

[aestrivex]

This varies by time of day. The MTA's load guidelines currently define capacity as when "Every seat is taken and an average of 3 people are left standing in each car" There are a good number of lines that are well above capacity at rush hour.

why listen to some hipster?

[Gothmolly]

Why listen to some hipster dbag who wants to be intimate and is "fond" of the trains when you can pack an extra 10% people on there for free? Who pays for her "fondness" ?

Yes I know she reconsidered, but why does everyone get a vote in this kind of thing? If they jacked the price up of the tickets and ran more cars, she'd bitch about that too.

Re:why listen to some hipster?

[Anonymous Coward]

She actually neared a valid point without ever hitting on it. Anyone who's ridden the NYC subway for any length of time has come upon the empty, "smelly-guy" car - someone who's stench is so overpowering it clears out the car. If there's no barrier between cars, you've now made the whole train stink like ass instead of just one car.

Re:why listen to some hipster?

[Gothmolly]

It's NYC - the entire place stinks like ass.

Why one Toronto subway driver doesn't like them

[Anonymous Coward]

I overheard a 20+ year career subway driver in Toronto talk about why he doesn't like the new trains. On weekends partiers often vomit in subway cars, and the smell used to be isolated to just the affected cars with the old train, but now the vomit rolls up and down the entire length of the train and the driver has to smell it for the entire duration of his/her shift. I can understand this concern and don't have a solution to offer, but personally I love the new trains. They have a subway map with lights showing which stations you've passed by, which one is next, where you're going, which side the door will open on, and all of the announcements seem to be pre recorded or computer generated. I don't have to struggle to understand what the foreign driver is saying. These trains are made by Bombadier, a Canadian company. I've seen these same trains in China (Bombadier). I wonder if NYC will get the same ones.

Re:Why one Toronto subway driver doesn't like them

[Jawwad]

The newer trains in Singapore are driverless. May be the authorities should look in that direction.

Re:Why one Toronto subway driver doesn't like them

[Ami Ganguli]

I also love the new trains. They feel a lot roomier. Part of that is because they really are roomier, but part of it is the more open design that feels less claustrophobic.

Re:Why one Toronto subway driver doesn't like them

[Shatrat]

I rode on the articulated subway in Berlin this year during a weekend, including early Saturday morning. Lots of partiers, no vomit. Maybe Canadians drink like teenagers? :)

Re:Why one Toronto subway driver doesn't like them

[91degrees]

They should. The main problems are political rather than technical. Far too many drivers would object to being put out of work. Singapore's MRT's driverless lines were designed that way from the start.

Re:Why one Toronto subway driver doesn't like them

[SirGarlon]

Removing the driver would stop the driver complaining about vomit, but removing the vomit is probably a better approach.

Re:Why one Toronto subway driver doesn't like them

[Anonymous Coward]

The Copenhagen subway is relatively new (only 2 lines in service and work ongoing on the rest), so it is a good case study for a modern subway.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copenhagen_Metro

Here all trains are articulated and feel very nice and open.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Copenhagen_Metro_Train_Interior.jpg

It does however, solve some problems that might be harder for the NY subway with station design. The station has a thick glass panel with doors between station and track. The doors and the railcar doors open when the subway is stopped at the station.

The system is driverless, so only the passengers has to smell the vomit :)

Re:Why one Toronto subway driver doesn't like them

[MayorOfTuesday]

Just put in some small waterbars to catch and redirect the vomit (or, e.g., spilled drinks) off the train. For those who don't know, waterbars are what you see on hiking trails to divert rainwater.

Re:Why one Toronto subway driver doesn't like them

[Jawwad]

Singapore has done an awful lot in that regard as well. All the trains, stations, escalators and stairs for the underground system (called MRT) is spot less. And I mean absolutely spot less. I had to actually teach myself to look at the seat before sitting in some other metropolitan cities as the trains in Singapore are always very clean. Surely there are drunken people on the train but I guess the SGD 5000 fine goes someway in stopping littering.

Re:Why one Toronto subway driver doesn't like them

[Anonymous Coward]

Articulated trains do not prevent you from adding doors between carriages - at least not technically. That would seem the "simple" solution. The doors could be added either at the connectionpoint between the carriages or if that poses issues, add a door just before the bending area starts. (vomit is not the only thing that can travel down a train-isle. A pack of round candy dropped or an elderly who fell of their seat in a turn (both things i have seen myself). so even without a driver there might be good reason to seperate carriages with a door - noise being another issue (perhaps not on short routes though)

Re:Why one Toronto subway driver doesn't like them

[diodeus]

The cars are 300 feet long. That's a lot of barf. (I live in Toronto and have never experienced this). I like these new trains. They're great!

Re:Why one Toronto subway driver doesn't like them

[Anonymous Coward]

"smell used to be isolated"

Sounds more like a ventilation problem than a articulated car issue. Simply providing each car with its own intake and output ducts in the right configuration should keep smells contained to a single area. If they really care about rider comfort & health they would rig the system to expel the car air from time to time and replace it with new, maybe throw in some UV lights in the duct work to kill any airborne pathogens.

Re:Why one Toronto subway driver doesn't like them

[Rob Riggs]

They probably do not treat the subway lines as a homeless shelter like the CTA in Chicago does.

Re:Why one Toronto subway driver doesn't like them

[jittles]

Singapore has done an awful lot in that regard as well. All the trains, stations, escalators and stairs for the underground system (called MRT) is spot less. And I mean absolutely spot less. I had to actually teach myself to look at the seat before sitting in some other metropolitan cities as the trains in Singapore are always very clean. Surely there are drunken people on the train but I guess the SGD 5000 fine goes someway in stopping littering.

A fine? You think all they get is a fine for tarnishing the train? I would not be surprised if they were also caned for it. We all know they are pretty strict with their rules there.

Re:Why one Toronto subway driver doesn't like them

[quacking duck]

Vomit is a little more substantial than rainwater or spilled drinks, so it won't run off. Even for liquids that might, their smell remains until it's washed away.

Re:Why one Toronto subway driver doesn't like them

[quacking duck]

Or Canadians party harder than Berliners :)

Re:Why one Toronto subway driver doesn't like them

[Ian_Bailey]

They already are working on that: Automatic Train Control.

Re:Why one Toronto subway driver doesn't like them

[Anonymous Coward]

Only lightweights vomit, so perhaps it's the other way around. Berliners have the tolerance :)

Re:Why one Toronto subway driver doesn't like them

[gravis777]

Sounds like the Toronto subway needs a janitorial staff. How hard would it be to have cleaning crews at a few select stations, and when the driver reports an issue, they jump on at a stop and clean the train up while its in motion? Then they just jump out at another station. Give all workers free subway passes on that day (and make sure they know how to read a subway map so they can get home)

Re:Why one Toronto subway driver doesn't like them

[Chubby_C]

My biggest complaint about the new trains is that when I take my 3-year old daughter on a train ride she can't look out the front window like she does on the older models. The double sets of windows at the front of the train don't let enough light through to look through the door.

Re:Why one Toronto subway driver doesn't like them

[dmatos]

Dollars to donuts, those vomiting Canadian drinkers _are_ teenagers.

(legal drinking age in Ontario is 19)

Re:Why one Toronto subway driver doesn't like them

[Shatrat]

Legal drinking age in Germany is 16, try again.

Re:Why one Toronto subway driver doesn't like them

[Anonymous Coward]

Legal drinking age in Germany is 16, try again.

But Germans drink weak as piss beer.

Re:Why one Toronto subway driver doesn't like them

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, TTC funding is at such a low level at this point that it's a miracle anything ever gets cleaned at all. Roving janitorial SWAT teams? Not a chance.

Re:Why one Toronto subway driver doesn't like them

[steelfood]

In NYC, you'd also get the smells of the homeless people in addition to sweat, vomit, piss, smells of the sewage outside, and whatnot. Those are always fun to ride in, especially in the summertime.

Re:Why one Toronto subway driver doesn't like them

[Anonymous Coward]

Be glad they don't buy shitty-assed Breda rolling stock like the Los Angeles MTA did for the Gold Line. The seats are so narrow that I can't get comfortable in them, and I'm a 5'8" 170 lbs. guy. There are vertical bars all over the car which interfere with walking around with bags and luggage. The cars are awful.

Re:Why one Toronto subway driver doesn't like them

[Kvan]

The station doors are only at underground stations though, overground stations are just like normal ones.

But if the cars aren't discreet compartments...

[TWX]

...then where will the hobos excrete in private?

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[Anonymous Coward]

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Look at the engineering problem!

[Anonymous Coward]

This is meant to be slashdot, FGS!

There's a hundred different parameters which need to be assessed, weighed and designed for.

Open carriages are good for increased passenger loads. They are bad for fire isolation and suppression. They are bad for flexibly disconnecting sections if vandalism or mechanical failure takes out one carriage. They are bad for insulation and keeping warm, but they are good for cooling and providing a fresh atmosphere....

Consider the issues and score them in a scientific way...

hmm

[hypergreatthing]

isn't the whole point of individual cars so that when one goes bad or needs maintenance, you just disconnect it from the rest and attach something else? I'm sure you can do the same with articulated, but it's probably a lot more of a hassle. That or if you can't and they're all attached for life (like an articulated bus), that would mean any failure along the 8 (I'm assuming it's 8 in nyc) would send the entire train to the maintenance yard.

No one would want to sit on the articulated section anyways. The suspension between the two and the floor moving near where you're sitting would probably be unnerving to some.

Re:hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

I have worked on the train lines in Singapore and I can tell you from first hand experience that this is not the case. The articulated train cars are no more hassle to connect or disconnect. Infact its easier during repairs. Also one of my most favorite places on the Singapore MRT car is the place where the two sections join. You can easily lean on the side and not as many people would walk past you when a station come as in the middle of the car. Its also less tiring for some reason. And no, its not just me, I have seen people rushing towards this spot when the train doors open and its apparent that all the seats are full.

Re:hmm

[swb]

You would hope that an articulated train would be modular enough that segments/cars could be decoupled to perform maintenance or swap segments/cars as needed.

It's probably more work than just switching cars in the yard, though, and the segments are probably more specialized so you can't substitute a middle segment for an end/rear car, although I don't know if all existing cars have this interchangeability although visually it looks that way.

Re:hmm

[xaxa]

any failure along the 8 (I'm assuming it's 8 in nyc) would send the entire train to the maintenance yard.

That's going to happen anyway -- where else on a city metro system would you take apart a train?

But anyway, I don't think that's how trains are maintained any more. The carriages are unlikely to be uncoupled except in very rare circumstances (fire/accident, or infrequent maintenance). This article shows a small part of a lifting machine that is "able to raise a complete eight-car trainset" for London Underground. This The manufacturer has some better pictures, including whole high-speed trains (much longer).

No one would want to sit on the articulated section anyways. The suspension between the two and the floor moving near where you're sitting would probably be unnerving to some.

Every articulated train (and tram for that matter) that I've seen has only standing room in the articulated sections. There's usually a semicircular joint where the floor moves -- just don't stand on both sides of it :-)

Re:hmm

[91degrees]

Do they substitute cars though? I'd have thought they'd simply have a spare train, or accept the capacity reduction and increase the spacing to compensate.

Re:hmm

[quacking duck]

Hong Kong also has articulated subway cars, it's actually quite fascinating to watch the cars ahead or behind you twisting and turning at turns and inclines. Millions of people pack those subway trains, including standing in the articulated spaces (too short an area for any seats), without any problem.

Re:hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Unless the trains use Jacobs boogies, it should be only slightly more involved to substitute cars within a train. Over here, the train sets with Jacobs boogies are replaced as a whole unit (from the spare sets they keep around) whenever they fail in day-to-day use.

Re:hmm

[steelfood]

Yes, when there are no seats, the preferred places on the train are against a side somewhere. Doors, walls, joints, etc. The idea is to get out of the way. Without walls, the doors are the next best place.

Re:hmm

[Patch86]

It's exactly the same amount of effort. You know how the trains currently have doors at the end of each carriage? Imagine that the door was bigger and always open, and that there was an airtight enclosure made of flexible material around the vestibule. That's it. To detach it, you just shut the doors and fold away the enclosure material.

As for standing over the gap- you get over it. The high speed service that passed through my town runs Intercity 125 trains, which have very rudimentary articulation; they're frequently "standing-in-the-vestibule room only", and I've passed many a happy multi-hour journey whizzing along at 200 km/h with one foot in one carriage and one in another, leaning against a slightly ropey-feeling piece of rubberized canvas.

Modern trains should be much better. A few weeks ago I rode of the first time on a Class 378 on the London Overground, which is a full-sized fully articulated train, and I was seriously and genuinely impressed. I mean literally, looking down the full length of the train was a thing of actual beauty.
http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2010/163/6/5/London_Overground_by_lytom.jpg

Articulated Subway Cars

[Anonymous Coward]

Please... move... into... the... cabin.

Doors between cars aren't the problem to be solved

[supernova87a]

More than doors between cars, what NYC needs to bring itself into the modern age is automatic train control and platform doors. It would allow a whole host of benefits, such as less reliance on human drivers (controversial, I know), air conditioned platforms, increased reliability, increased frequency, etc.

When you come back from Asia or Europe and see the subway systems they have, and see what we have in New York, you actually get embarrassed, and wonder how we're still #1...

ps. oh, please do all that, plus grind the rails properly so that I don't have to go deaf when the cars go around any type of curve...

Hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder if there are any statistics for something like flu transmission on articulated subways vs closed cars.

Details on the Toronto "Rocket"

[8127972]

... Which is the articulated train that we use is here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_Rocket

It's got more going for it than just being articulated. There are electronic signs that allow people not familiar with the subway system in Toronto to navigate the system better. Plus it's easier for those who have mobility issues.

Re:Details on the Toronto "Rocket"

[Anonymous Coward]

Darn. I heard it in the news, but I keep thinking that it was about articulated bus, like we used to have in the early 90's.

Really?

[sunking2]

News for nerds here? Or just another case for Slashdot to compare the US to those more forward thinking awesome European cities? In all seriousness, what is the news here? That when new trains are needed a newer type may be considered? Wow.

Re:Really?

[Anonymous Coward]

Feeling defensive today?

If the story doesn't interest you, don't read it. Whining doesn't help.

Re:Really?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's those socialist liberal Democrats running up the deficit again!

Re:Really?

[Valdrax]

Or just another case for Slashdot to compare the US to those more forward thinking awesome European cities?

You know, if you click on the "articulated cars" Wikipedia link above, one of the images visible from the top of the page is one of similar cars in Portland, Oregon. I've ridden them, and they're pretty neat the first few times when one takes a turn. Plenty of US cities already have them, but they're an interesting solution to an old design issue, and it's always nice to highlight good engineering.

It's a better read anyway than someone whining about news they don't like appealing to other nerds while showing off a massive inferiority complex about America.

Umm, the current trains are...

[swb]

...already articulated, they just don't have a flexible enclosure built around the articulation point.

I don't think that having the coupling area enclosed will make the entire train any less articulated than it is now.

Re:Umm, the current trains are...

[Anonymous Coward]

The current cars can have different pitch/yaw/roll - also the cars tend to oscillate roll in the process of turning hard on non-banked turns. Perhaps you could do it, but you'd make everyone barf

Re:Umm, the current trains are...

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think that having the coupling area enclosed will make the entire train any less articulated than it is now.

Hint: TFA agrees it will be more articulated than it is now. Although to be fair, it appears to suggest the current trains are unarticulated. Whatever.

Deployment has started

[Anonymous Coward]

Several lines already use them, M1, M4 and M14 at least, probably more. They work fine and are much more pleasant than seperated cars.

And this is on /. because...

[Anonymous Coward]

... why is this on /., again? Sorry, but just do not think this news story is worth of a slashdot post. Is it now "News for nerds, stuff that matters to New Yorkers only"?

Re:And this is on /. because...

[Miseph]

Because there is nothing nerdier than arguing, in 2013, about what kind of train is the best. NOTHING.

Re: Logistics too expensive

[gurubert]

The subway operators in Berlin have decided for these long trains beacuse the manual labour and logistics needed to extend or shorten trains during the day is more expensive than just letting them roll.

Outdated trains

[Clsid]

The whole NYC metro system is something I really cannot understand about the US. I haven't visited the whole world but NY city metro is by far the worst I have been, starting with the dirty station that includes God knows how many rats and the old equipment. Hell there are places in Latin America that have better stuff. Sure it has a lot of coverage and works 24/7 but either everybody else is doing something extraordinary or I don't know what's the deal.

So now seeing this whole 'debate' about whether to use articulated cars is like watching a discussion about the merits of the wheel to improve transportation. They really need to invest heavily into the system, especially in a city like NY where millions depend on the subway as their primary mean of transportation.

Re:Outdated trains

[Joey Vegetables]

It's worse than you think. Transit in NYC is by far the best we have in the U.S., with only Chicago, Washington, Boston, LA, and at most a handful of other cities having anything that would be recognizable in the rest of the world as a metro system at all. Most parts of the Cleveland, Ohio area where I live do not have any public transportation at all, and even within city limits many places are served only by a bus running once every hour during the day, and not at all at night or weekends. For people who can afford to drive, transportation in the U.S. is great, but for anyone else, it sucks universes through nanotubes.

Re:Outdated trains

[DexterIsADog]

The Onion ran a story once about the NYC subway system upgrading the rolling stock to use octagonal wheels, instead of the square wheels, and how much quieter and smooth the ride would be.

That's about right... I still have fond memories of the 7 line though.

Re:Outdated trains

[mlts]

The sad thing is the NYC metro system is the best in the US. Where I live, you -can- try to bike it places [1], or perhaps find a bus line that goes near your destination, but your commute time will be 2-3 hours for a distance that should be 15-30 minutes at most.

Here in the US, the best bet for mass transportation are autopiloted cars, just due to the distance, and the unwillingness of cities to work on mass transportation as opposed to a new football stadium every 10 years or so.

[1]: Austin is fairly bike friendly, but there are some corridors that one either spends a good time taking a bikable route, or risks life and limb hoping that some soccer mom doesn't hit them while going around a blind turn. Oh, expect to wait for more than one bus (or commute using a folding bike) since usually the bike racks on the front of the buses tend to be taken.

Re:Outdated trains

[Miseph]

Keep in mind that the NYC subway is also one of the oldest in the world: they had very few predecessors to learn from and far more limited technology to work with when it was designed and constructed. Occasional retrofits are possible, and several have been made, but any sort of substantive upgrade is hard to implement when you're working on a finished, active subterranean system that runs, as you not, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year.

Re:Outdated trains

[CaptainLard]

"The deal" is that its the most extensive public transportation system in the world (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ny_subway) and was built early in the 20th century. As it serves over 5 million riders a day you can't just shut it down and rebuild the whole thing for less than $50 billion and another $100 billion in economic impact. Especially considering it functions well for most people. Of course its dirty because it's old and serves one of the most densely populated regions on the planet. I'm sure you can find many cleaner systems throughout the world but not many (outside asia maybe) are as effective. Articulated cars seem like a good non disruptive improvement that's good for everyone except a few hipsters that will miss the nostalgia of the trains they've been riding since they moved to williamsburg 8 months ago.

Re:Outdated trains

[SuricouRaven]

There's a rumor that they used to have a mercury rectifier running one of the lifts, up until the 2000s. It worked, so no-one ever raised the subject of replacing it until several decades after it should have been considered obsolete.

I don't know how much truth there is to the rumor, though.

Re:Outdated trains

[SuricouRaven]

You're doing it wrong!
  - London

Re:Outdated trains

[Alioth]

But you can make it clean, and make the stations not depressingly grey and dull which just goes to make them seem even dirtier than they actually are. The London Underground is even older but for the most part, the stations are clean, most of them are decorated nicely, and most of them are bright.

Re:Outdated trains

[BLToday]

I've been to London, it ain't better than NYC. The gaps between the car and station are gigantic, hence "mind the gap" warnings. The escalators are super speedy and steep, and when it rains very slick. Try going from Heathrow with some luggage and you start notice that London Underground is a death trap.

Paris' subway is better but Paris is small that it probably only takes about 20 minutes for a train to make a round-trip through it's route. Relatively clean compare to London and NYC. Walkways still smell like urine though and it lacks escalators in many places. You're very likely to get pick-pocketed and with the articulated subway cars make it easier for them to escape from you if you notice.

Tokyo's metro system is amazing. Trains are on time, stations and cars are clean, but the system is confusing as NYC.

I haven't try Beijing's or Shanghai metro system yet.

Re:Outdated trains

[dave420]

The double-running means it's easier to keep the tracks operational and work on the system at the same time. London doesn't have this luxury, as it's older and mostly single-running. And London's system is still far better :) Where is your god now??

Re:Outdated trains

[Anonymous Coward]

Paris' subway is better but Paris is small that it probably only takes about 20 minutes for a train to make a round-trip through it's route.

Uh, no.

Relatively clean compare to London and NYC. Walkways still smell like urine though and it lacks escalators in many places.

If you think Paris metro is clean, go to Germany sometime, that'll blow your hair back. Hamburg U-bahn / S-bahn is so much cleaner than Paris.

You're very likely to get pick-pocketed

No, you're really not. I see that you must be a tourist.

Re:Outdated trains

[cornjones]

I'll take the NYC subway over the London underground any day. Besides being air conditioned, the subway runs 24 hours a day. None of this last train around midnight scramble for people that don't live right in zone 1.

Re:Outdated trains

[Anonymous Coward]

The metro system in Honk Kong is very good too.
And even as someone who doesn't speak or read a word of Chinese I could find my way around.
In fact I find that in many ways the metro system in Honk Kong was easier to use than the one we have in the Netherlands.

Re:Outdated trains

[Anonymous Coward]

NYC:
The technology of ten years ago in ten years.

Re:Outdated trains

[xaxa]

I've been to London, it ain't better than NYC. The gaps between the car and station are gigantic, hence "mind the gap" warnings.

Yep, that's one of those "oldest in the world" problems that would be incredibly expensive to fix (the other is the narrow tunnels). Also that some platforms are used by trains with a different height -- I don't know if they'll ever fix that either.

The escalators are super speedy and steep, and when it rains very slick. Try going from Heathrow with some luggage and you start notice that London Underground is a death trap.

I don't find this to be a problem. Maybe because I rarely wear leather soled shoes? The escalators are the normal speed for Europe -- I find ones in the US to be slow.

When did you last use London Underground? I think it's generally clean -- they employ a lot of cleaning staff. Urine smell is practically unheard of. It's at least very brightly lit, and has tiled (reflective) walls, which make it feel safe.

Beijing and Shanghai's systems are showing their age in places, compared to their newer lines and other Chinese cities, but they're modernising them. I found them easy to navigate, there are English signs in most places. They're the same as London for cleanliness and escalator speed, and also have the random staircases where a really new system would have put a slope or escalator. The trains were timed to the second in some cities, but that didn't mean they were fast -- they were slow to set off once the doors had shut. I don't think they trust their Chinese signalling systems yet.

Re:Outdated trains

[dj245]

I've been to London, it ain't better than NYC. The gaps between the car and station are gigantic, hence "mind the gap" warnings. The escalators are super speedy and steep, and when it rains very slick. Try going from Heathrow with some luggage and you start notice that London Underground is a death trap.

Paris' subway is better but Paris is small that it probably only takes about 20 minutes for a train to make a round-trip through it's route. Relatively clean compare to London and NYC. Walkways still smell like urine though and it lacks escalators in many places. You're very likely to get pick-pocketed and with the articulated subway cars make it easier for them to escape from you if you notice.

Tokyo's metro system is amazing. Trains are on time, stations and cars are clean, but the system is confusing as NYC.

I haven't try Beijing's or Shanghai metro system yet.

The Tokyo system is very easy. Ticketing and payment are very straightforward. You can buy a 1-way ticket or have a declining balance card and just swipe, swipe, swipe. If you stick to JR trains (which is easily possible), routing is easy. The only points of confusion I experienced were with signs lacking English text.

Zurich's system was a nightmare for me. There are a couple dozen different kind of tickets and figuring out which one is needed was less than intuitive. Many train stations did not have prominent signage indicating the station name, so knowing where you were was a problem at times. I was baffled my first 4 days because nobody ever checked my ticket (and there are no gates). I never did understand routing. Even finding the right track/train was a problem since Zurich main station is a terminus and all the trains share all the tracks.

Re:Outdated trains

[Anonymous Coward]

You lumped LA (the world's largest car-centric suburb) in with NYC, CHI, DC, and Boston? Hilarious. There are numerous smaller cities (e.g., Cleveland and Salt Lake City) whose train systems, relatively speaking, put LA's to shame.

Re:Outdated trains

[coldsalmon]

As many have said, it's an issue of money. Based on some brief research, a monthly pass for the London underground costs £213.60, or $344. A monthly pass on the NYC subway costs $112. The residents of my city would rather have an additional $232 in their pocket each month instead of a newly redecorated subway system.

Re:Outdated trains

[Anonymous Coward]

As many have said, it's an issue of money. Based on some brief research, a monthly pass for the London underground costs £213.60, or $344. A monthly pass on the NYC subway costs $112. The residents of my city would rather have an additional $232 in their pocket each month instead of a newly redecorated subway system.

I'd call that a part of the problem: Circumstances and marketing have conspired to indoctrinate in the American people a sense of "whatever doesn't directly benefit me and me alone immediately is a waste of money at best and robbery at worst", even worse than other cultures. An entire economy based on penny pinching, short-term gain, and self-centeredness over the past thirty or forty years led us here because nobody budgeted for inevitable required improvements to infrastructure (well, anyone who tries quickly gets their name smeared right out of any position of authority the second the thought of "this might cost taxpayer money" comes up). Whatever's cheap and does the job now is obviously superior forever.

Re:Outdated trains

[steelfood]

It's also one of the few systems in the world that run 24/7. Almost every other system shuts down after a certain time each day for maintenance, cleaning, repairs, etc. This includes pretty much every system in Asia. The NYCTA has no such luxury.

The stations also weren't built to handle this kind of density. Early on, subway riding was considered a luxury, and the expectation was only the upper-middle class and above would really use it. So stations were built relatively small. In fact, they started off as 4-5 car stations, and only expanded to 8-10 cars afterwards. Certain stations, like the South Ferry loop, still only support 5 cars.

There are also three separate train systems at work, and the differences in engineering philosophy employed between the three are very, very obvious. Putting them together was a nightmare, and in certain spots of the system, still is.

Re:Outdated trains

[greggman]

London's is older than NYCs (built in the mid 19th century) and looks clean and new and is of a comparable size and ridership so it's certainly possible for a large subway system to get overhauled. They're doing a major renewal effort right now and have a great system to keep people informed which lines have issues and how to work around them. They have websites to check and very clear P.A. systems announcing the issues in all stations. Usually they appear to only close portions of lines on weekends with details on how to bus around the closures.

Tokyo's system is also clean and MUCH BIGGER than NYCs. The reason it doesn't appear that way is because of who get's to define it. Tokyo has 10 independent transit companies running 55 lines through Tokyo. Some are labeled as trains vs subway even though they're the same trains running on the same tracks. For example the Toyoko-line train line becomes both the Hibiya-line (subway) or the Fukutoshi-line (subway) depending on which train is coming down the track. Same cars, no one gets off the train where it becomes one vs the other. The system called "Tokyo Subway" is just one of those 10 companies (possibly 2).

My only point the fact that other similar sized systems can update and keep their trains clean means NYC has no excuse.

Re:Outdated trains

[BLToday]

The Tokyo system is very easy. Ticketing and payment are very straightforward. You can buy a 1-way ticket or have a declining balance card and just swipe, swipe, swipe. If you stick to JR trains (which is easily possible), routing is easy. The only points of confusion I experienced were with signs lacking English text.

What got me in Tokyo several times was Chuo/Sobu line. The train changes line name at certain stations. Also you really have to pay attention to the final destination of the train, getting on the same line with different final destination means you may skip some stops. I had figured that if it's going the same way, on the same line and I'm only about 4 stops away it would make the same stops. I was wrong. I had an easier time figuring out London's system.

Re:Outdated trains

[steelfood]

Yes. So figure out how to fix it or keep it to yourself. You run yours your way, and we'll run ours our way.

There are many problems with the NYC subway. Most of them have to do with expansion planning, particularly the politics and red tape around it. A lot of it stems from historical decisions, different ideas of what things should be or where they should be going. Some of the issues came about because of something unrelated to the subway system itself. You'd probably find it easier to solve things like world hunger and the unrest in the Middle East than fixing even one issue.

Re:Outdated trains

[Patch86]

You exaggerate. If you take the NYC Subway as being built in 1904 (when the first underground line was built), it is pre-dated by the London Underground, Glasgow Subway, Budapest Metro, Paris Metro, Berlin U-Bahn, and for that matter the Boston MBTA. The London Underground is also larger (by track mileage), and other systems are larger still.

If the NYC Subway has problems, it can only be due to current and ongoing underinvestment or mismanagement. You can replace the rolling stock easily whenever you like, and sprucing up a station is not a major undertaking and is something that needs to happen periodically ongoing. Anything else would be more effort, true- but who's asking for anything else?

Re:Outdated trains

[Joey Vegetables]

LA certainly is car-centric as are most U.S. cities, but to say it does not have an extensive train system is a misconception. That was true for many unfortunate decades, but you probably aren't aware of the significant buildout that began about a decade ago and is still ongoing. According to the linked article, LACMTA runs the country's second largest light-rail system, ninth-largest heavy rail (subway) system, and also has commuter rail, Amtrak, and a great bus system that is very well-used and extensive by U.S. standards.

Your choice of Cleveland as a comparison is similarly unfortunate. I live and work in/near Cleveland, which has one heavy rail line, serving primarily industrial areas, with only a single downtown station. It has two light rail lines as well, both serving the suburb of Shaker Heights (they were an integral part of its design) but also sharing that same single downtown station, and a bus rapid transit line, which is nice, but definitely not comparable to rail. I like Cleveland's transit system, and its main flaw is not that there aren't more trains, but that there aren't more buses. But comparable to any of the others I mentioned, or to any city in Europe or China of comparable significance? Definitely not.

More Passengers

[Princeofcups]

This is all bullshit. The one reason to articulated bogies, which is all we're talking about, is that you can cram more seats on each car, which means saving money. Please ignore the weird PR spin.

Re:More Passengers

[MrNemesis]

If it's anything like the articulated bogies they're introducing on the tube/London Underground, there'll be even less seats. The Metropolitan line - one of the lines that extends out the furthest into the commuter belt - used to run the venerable A Stock which had 448 seats per train, but they've been replaced with the S8 stock which have only 306 seats.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Underground_S7_and_S8_Stock

But great news for people who like to stand for an hour on their morning commute into the City.

Re:More Passengers

[dj245]

This is all bullshit. The one reason to articulated bogies, which is all we're talking about, is that you can cram more seats on each car, which means saving money. Please ignore the weird PR spin.

This is true for planes and maybe long-distance trains but not subways. On a busy subway line, you actually want fewer seats because the cars are packed during rush hour. Tokyo even has a few (very new) trainsets with folding jump seats. Standing for 20 minutes isn't going to kill you.

Re:More Passengers

[Anonymous Coward]

It's about 90 minutes from the end of one branch of the Piccadilly line in London to King's Cross. Need to get all the way across London? You're probably looking at about 2 hours...

Better for ...

[PPH]

... panhandlers to cover more territory.

Think of the consequences for Hollywood

[GodfatherofSoul]

No more dramatic subway car to subway car chases with that harrowing split second to open each door; not knowing if it'll be locked or if the international assassin will catch up to our hero before he gets through. No more gratuitous, tortured expressions as Julia Roberts struggles with the unfamilar latches. A subway chase through articulated joints will be like watching 2 guys running through an alley. Boring!

Re:Think of the consequences for Hollywood

[tverbeek]

When has Hollywood ever placed realism above drama? Their characters still use payphones instead of mobiles.

Re:Doors between cars aren't the problem to be sol

[Anonymous Coward]

Hint: 'you' are not #1 ;)

America

[Anonymous Coward]

Finding any excuse to believe they have the best version of x. No, the world surely could not have improved and advanced beyond anything the USA has developed - it must simply be bad in some other way. Good luck with that, fools.

articulated

[tverbeek]

Do you mean New York subway trains will be able to talk clearly and understandably?

NYC subway is old technology

[Anonymous Coward]

It was due to an update a few years back which in particular meant removing the obnoxious screeching breaks. People protested the much superior rubber wheel technology that was supposed to replace them and the old technology stayed.

Ahh, the smells of the NY subway

[Overzeetop]

If everyone in a car gets off at one stop...you probably should not enter unless you suffer from (or, in this case, are blessed by) anosmia.

Why not move to a Monorail?

[Anonymous Coward]

"there's nothing on earth Like a genuine, Bona fide, Electrified, Six-car Monorail"

And yet again USA is years behind

[Anonymous Coward]

Everybody is having this "feature" for years - USA sells it as a big win.
WOW. I can't believe it.

Why is this good? You can simply enter a car whereever you want and people will balance themselves throughout the full length of the car.
Instant win!

Articulated trains?

[mu51c10rd]

Yes, because being more intimate with fellow passengers on a MTA train in NYC is high on my list of "wants"...

Maintenance

[zenyu]

This is exactly why NYC ordered individual cars last time around. They wanted to be able to scavange good cars into a train if maintenance fell behind. They had been forced to do so in the 1970's and 1980's. In practice they have married sets of cars together and maintain them as a set.

Articulated cars were run on the NYC subway from 1925 to 1965, google D-type Triplex, but each car needs to be shorter. I don't think anyone knows what the impact of running articulated cars again would be. It is worth an engineering study.