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NSA Intercepted French Telephone Calls "On a Massive Scale"
rtoz writes "The US National Security Agency (NSA) has been intercepting French telephone calls 'on a massive scale,' according to a report published in Le Monde. According to Le Monde, the NSA recorded millions of telephone calls placed by French citizens over a 30-day period last year, including some placed by people with no connections to terrorist organizations. France called in the U.S. ambassador to protest the alleged large-scale spying on French citizens by NSA."
which is not a valid argument for any NSA actions against a friendly country.
Ah, spoken like a true American who feels entitled to be a douchebag.
When the rest of the world decides they're tired of your shit, you can likely expect to see a backlash against the US.
I can see governments basically saying "we're not buying your stuff, we're not hosting your bases, we're sure as hell not working with you and we don't give a fuck".
America likes to think their interests trump everyone else's. But I see a time coming where other governments start saying "fuck you".
Saying your $FOO doesn't mean you're really a $FOO as described by $FOO.SACRED_WRITINGS.
It's impossible to keep an operation that big under wraps. I can't say I have a problem with the US spying on other countries. I do have a major problem with a wasteful, counterproductive grab bag approach that relies on 20ish high school dropouts.
I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
But Mom! All the kids are doing lines and beating up old ladies!
America is 75% christian, and given how feral and out-of-countrol some of the groups are, I'd say they're fair game.
Apparently the NSA agreed with you.
with no terrorist connections?
SOME?
When you intercept millions of phone calls, I'd rather expect that the majority of them are not placed by terrorists, else terrorists have the phone habits of the average western teenager.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
With "allies" like your country no one needs enemies.
Millions of conversations & "some" are not related to terrorists ! ... shudder .... ... ....
Millions is at least 2 millions or 66 666/day...
"Some" is at most "half" so there where apparently 33 333 conversations related to terrorist every day
So assuming that all these bad guys where plotting like crazy, every day, and always the same, that still means that with 50 conversations per day the NSA should have found out at least 600 "new" terrorist
nb: there are about 60 000 people in jail in France, so at the very least 1% is something like "large"
So Where are they ??? are they hiding under my table ... or in some bush on my way home .... shudder shudder ....
Or should it read, some conversations where related to terrorism ...
In practice, when the official communication says: we looked at all these people and some where innocent... I find it much more scary than
we unfortunately looked at a lot of innocent people but we did find "some" very bad people...
The fact that the communication days "some where innocent" really gives the impression that they are again trying to bamboozle us ...
Let's get real. The worst christians is Westboro Baptist Church and what do they do? Protest funerals and tell everyone how gay lovers will burn in hell. Let's try an experiment: Paint Jesus in Feces in a Christian country and see what the worst thing that will happen to you as a result? Next, pain Mohammed in feces and see what will happen to you in a Muslim country. Or even a European one (death threats anyone)?
Oh wait, you were trying to make a lame attempt at equating the two.
Friendly? France is well known for its industrial espionage.
Some people die at 25 and aren't buried until 75. -Benjamin Franklin
OTH if they keep doing it the country might stop being friendly, so it is a nice self fulfilling prophecy
The French are not complaining about "foreign intelligence" they first and foremost defending their citizens rights. NSA tapped the whole frigging country including underwater sea cables. They didn't spy on specific strategic interests but every damn citizens of france and didn't even bother to work through the french security establishment that already cooperates fully with NSA. NSA managed to piss of the french by fucking them over multiple times at once.
This article articulates many points on France's recent espionage history.
Some people die at 25 and aren't buried until 75. -Benjamin Franklin
La merde vient de frapper le ventilateur.
Westboro Baptist is worse than Christian terrorist Timothy McVeigh? Or the people who bomb abortion clinics and shoot doctors? And if you want I can continue listing other domestic terrorism by Christians.
And don't even try the "they aren't true Christians" nonsense.
NSA tapped the whole frigging country including underwater sea cables.
As much as I don't like what the NSA has been doing, it's nice to know that that Yankee "can do" spirit isn't dead.
Better go tell the Foo Fighters.
I suspect many Americans would be demanding that Versailles get nuked or we name french fries to freedom fries.
Are you telling me that WBC is worse than those "christians" bombing clinics, killing doctors, spread hate and starts war like bush just because "god told me"?
Have you even seen some of those christians? Muslims are no worse than christians, just watch africa, and see what the christian militias such as sudanese christian militias roaming around and raping , LRA (congo, heard of kony?) and other places, or do you really think that every fucking militia in africa is muslim or animist? There is one major religion in Africa and it's christianity, look at south africa, not only were they christian but they also used bible verses to support their apartheid.
There are far more Muslims in the US than there is in France. So you might mind all your calls being tapped by foreign intelligence agencies, right?
God knows, if there's anyone I want protecting from it's the French. Sir Humphrey Appleby had it right. They may be our allies now, but for most of the last 1,000 years they've been our enemies. I'd vote for an increase of surveillance on the French.
And once that's happened, let's start on the Welsh.
Slashdot - News for Nerds, Stuff that Matters, in ISO-8859-1 Has just realised that beta makes this signature redundant
which is not a valid argument for any NSA actions against a friendly country.
There is no such thing as a friendly foreign country as far as intelligence services are concerned. While I (and probably you) do not and should not approve of the NSA's actions, we also should not be even a tiny bit surprised by them and you can be quite sure France is not surprised despite what their government might claim. Allies can become enemies and even countries on good terms can harbor dangerous individuals - sometimes unknowingly. The US and Canada have the longest undefended border in the world but I guarantee you that they do spy on each other and that each has developed invasion/defense plans against the other just in case. Intelligence services like the CIA and NSA look for information wherever it can be found. If that happens to be a "friendly" nation or even their own citizens then so be it. This is why it is SO important to have meaningful oversight by civilian authorities. Something which we are sorely lacking at the present time.
Countries that complain about NSA spying are really just putting on a show for their voting public. They have their own intelligence services and you can be 100% certain they are spying on the US and you can also be 100% sure that they knew or at least suspected the NSA spying already. Frankly the ONLY thing that would surprise me is if they were not trying to replicate to some degree what the US is doing.
The reality is, they'd do the same if they had the capabilities to do so.
That line of thought can justify just about any imaginable act of aggression. We can summary execute the citizens of any other country - since we have the capability, we can nuke anyone we feel like - they'd do it first if they could, etc. Complete breakdown of international law and agreements and the right of might.
Well, guess what US, the world is changing fast and it's just a matter of decades until the mighty will be in Asia. You won't like living in the world you've helped create.
Not to mention the fact that the Westboro Baptists are obviously a troll group and not a sincere church. Fred Phelps used to be a civil rights lawyer for God's sake.
I get what you mean. They are a US domestic CIA PsyOp. It's always been evident.
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
Not so much as retribution, simply because it doesn't apply, any more.
politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
It's their job to a) not blanket-grab millions of phone users of data in a random bug hunt but to apply "intelligence" and b) not to get caught doing so. They are spies. This is just terribly amateur. If you don't see that, then you're really missing the biggest thing - that's the problem more than ANYTHING else. So fucking amateur that it makes you look like a bunch of incompetents.
However, on a similar note, if you found out that the French authorities had a complete copy of your phone records which got publicly leaked (WikiLeaks-style, say), would you not be pissed? It could easily destroy your career, your life, your relationships, etc. (think: This might include the phone numbers of sex chat lines, and you might be a politician / teacher - nothing ILLEGAL in doing that, but would you want that being public knowledge after illegal collection of that data by a foreign entity not being held subject to the laws of YOUR country?).
Now think that that might include, say, phone calls made by the US ambassador to France while he was in the US. Now we're into REALLY serious shit that you can't even get in a court of law in the country.
What's more shocking is NOT that this data exists, or has been abused for purposes far beyond their remit, nor that they are that incompetent that it gets found out so easily (but that's pretty damning), but that - in order to "protect" the US, they have now incurred the wrath of quite a number of other countries allied to them and - should it come out into the public media that certain things were captured "accidentally" into that data - could well be the trigger to an international incident (read: War).
What if you found that a US ally like, say, the UK had complete records of every US citizen that the US did not give them (because a law prevents the US from doing so, and they thought it was just a blind hunt without purpose, and couldn't see why the UK would need that so they blocked it) but they stole in other ways and then managed to publish/leak to a newspaper in the UK?
And what if that info contained things like the phone records of major political figures? Or the phone calls made from Guantanamo Bay? Or what numbers were dialled in the Washington DC area when the UK queried why it join in fighting in the Middle East (or whatever?). It's not WHAT specifically was collected - it was why it was collected and what COULD be inside that that could easily trigger an international incident. And it has. And will continue to do so while things like this come out.
Fact is, there's being a spy - and that means NOT GETTING CAUGHT - and there's just going on a blind hunt through data "because you can" against the laws of a country you are allied to (who would have given you what you wanted if you'd asked).
Just how much co-operation do you think you will see next time you're trying to track a terrorist cell through France? It's counter-productive, and BAD SPYING. TERRIBLE SPYING. CRAP SPYING. And it's pissing off your allies.
Boo freekin hoo. This is what the NSA is supposed to do.
Um, no. They are supposed to focus on the activities of groups who are directly threatening American interests.
They are not supposed to waste billions of dollars worth of resources building haystacks through which to search for needles.
Face it, if the US governments interest was truly limited to fighting actual terrorism, the whole dragnet approach would be considered nothing but an expensive waste of time.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
Hitler was not an atheist. He was a Roman Catholic, and had agreements and treaties with the Vatican
I think he's saying that while you may get death threats in the States, in a Muslim country you wouldn't live long enough to get death threats. In the US, such a painting is would be protected speech. In Muslim countries, this would be a government mandated death penalty.
When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
The summary makes no mention of how much all these phone calls weighed.
Westboro Baptist is worse than Christian terrorist Timothy McVeigh?
Timothy McVeigh was raised as a Roman Catholic, but later claimed to be agnostic. There is no evidence that there was any religious motivation for his actions.
And don't even try the "they aren't true Christians" nonsense.
You are equating far less than 1% of Christians with 80% or more of Muslims. 90% of Pakistani Muslims think people should be executed for blasphemy. 40% of Pakistani Muslims feel that the 10% who are willing to tolerate blasphemy should also be executed. This is not theoretical. Salmaan Taseer, a Pakistani politician was murdered, not for blasphemy, but merely for advocating the abolition of the death penalty for blasphemy. There was widespread approval of his murder. How many Christians support abortion clinic bombers?
American's "know" a lot of things, but never seem to have the time to take any action to right the wrongs perpetrated on them (and others around the world). Taking no action means agreement. Therefore, why do Americans agree that spending massive amounts of taxpayer monies on illegal spying operations is a Good Thing(tm)? Are you that paranoid and fearful that someone will "get you?" Does this illegal spying help you sleep soundly at night? What? Please explain.
Really, when you take into account the witch trials, the crusades, the conquistadors, the slavers and every other Christian atrocity out there the Atheists are still the worst?
When you cant win, ad hominem.
...that the NSA managed to intercept more calls of French citizens.... ...than the French government.
The French government, among other parties, will be really enraged if it's revealed that they were willing accomplices. Or even if they just knew about it and kept it quiet based on some "understanding" with the US and British.
I am not a crackpot.
Oh yeah, "just in case"
Yes, just in case for both sides. Doesn't mean the plans are expected to be used but you can be certain that the US military has at some point developed plans for attacking and defending against every country in the world. Just in case.
Let's get real. The worst christians is Westboro Baptist Church and what do they do? Protest funerals and tell everyone how gay lovers will burn in hell. Let's try an experiment: Paint Jesus in Feces in a Christian country and see what the worst thing that will happen to you as a result? Next, pain Mohammed in feces and see what will happen to you in a Muslim country. Or even a European one (death threats anyone)?
Oh wait, you were trying to make a lame attempt at equating the two.
WBC is the most vocally odious, but there are many groups that have been much, much worse. Let's start with pretty much the entire white supremacist movement. Aryan Nations considered themselves a (quote) "White Christian Separatist" organization. That's right, these are literally Nazis we're talking about. (How often can someone play the Nazi Card on the Internet while actually stating an objective fact, eh?) Then there are splinter groups like the Louisiana-based "Church of the Sons of Yahweh" (that's "Church," not "delicatessen" or "mosque" or "nearby diner"), and other competing organizations like The Order. Oh, let's keep in mind why the KKK burns crosses...they too identify themselves as a Christian organization.
Now, all of these are fringe groups; I don't mean to infer that this is how most Christians, or even a significant percentage of them, think or act. But they all make the WBC look like internet trolls playing Xbox by comparison. WBC is NOT the worst there is.
For your security, this post has been encrypted with ROT-13, twice.
I can continue listing other domestic terrorism by Christians.
And don't even try the "they aren't true Christians" nonsense.
A random dictionary's definition of christian:a person who believes in the teachings of Jesus Christ
I would *add* that "believing" is not enough, and practicing is where the true follower is...
But Jesus gave his own litmus test, so why must you and I try to define "true" christian and waste time with the "no true scottsman fallacy": "By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another" (John 13:35)
There is no "love" in blowing people up and doing what some of these churches are individually doing to blemish the name of who they claim to follow. Jesus knew this about the wolves entering the flock. See Acts 20:29. The net result? false doctrine and interpretation create a rift between people and God.
Thanks for making up some stats so we can all know the truth.
I think every country on Earth can safely assume that the NSA spied on and recorded some large proportion of their telephone calls. It's almost naive to be outraged every time it gets confirmed.
It is a blatant general accusation without evidence.
Actually, NSA's mandate is Signals Intelligence. Which pretty much means grabbing everything they can, then sorting it for utility.
Also, "intelligence" in the context of an intelligence agency (NSA, GCHQ, etc) has NOTHING to do with common usage of the word - it means the information they are gathering, or trying to.
Surely would. However, absent me being a French citizen, it would never occur to me to scream "The French did something illegal!!!!", since FOREIGN intelligence gathering isn't illegal for any country.
Unless, of course, the actual intelligence gatherers are caught in the act of foreign soil. No, finding out they did it a year or two after the fact, with no names of the people doing the actual work, doesn't leave you much room for even a show trial, though "Viewing with Alarm" might be something you'd do to pacify your population when it is revealed that you can't protect your own people from foreign spying.
Which last seems to be what the French are trying for.
I would never expect ANY cooperation from the French in regards to terrorism. The only interest they have is that it not be done against French citizens or businesses. They don't give a rat's ass about any other terrorism....
"I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
Peter Allen had it right ..
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/how_they_do_it/2006/02/wiretapping_europeanstyle.html
Reported and discussed several years ago:
That article makes no sense what so ever. Atheists do not believe in a god, but the article claims that communists believe their leader is a god, and there for they are atheists.
Actually the more I read the article the more ridiculous it gets. They claim that atheists and communist have no moral code, which is a blatantly false logical fallacy.
When you have an article that backs up your claim that is not almost entirely over generalizations come talk to me.
When you cant win, ad hominem.
This article once again makes false equivalences. The deaths from the Crusades were made directly because of religious reasons; the Crusades themselves were inherently religious. On the other hand, many, many deaths at the hands of Stalin or Mao had absolutely nothing to do with their atheism. If you want to play that game, then you'd have to tally up all the murders and wars of each and every single country outside of possibly the last fifty years under "religious" because their leaders or perpetrators were religious.
They didn't complain much when Echelon was intercepting all of the French phone calls, probably because the CIA shared that info with them. I think they're more annoyed that the NSA is just greedy.
"Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
They were all in French.
You can come up with statistics to prove anything, AC. Forty percent of all people know that.
Er... then why did 'ol Tim McV hang out with that wacked out christian identity group? To convert them to agnostism? I think not.
In America, if you are Muslim and spew rhetoric against the State, you are arrested, "tried", and sent to jail. In the self-same America, if you are a Christian and spew rhetoric against the State, you are allowed to continue based on your 1st amendment rights. So much for equal application of the American ideal...
Westboro Baptist is worse than Christian terrorist Timothy McVeigh?
Timothy McVeigh was raised as a Roman Catholic, but later claimed to be agnostic. There is no evidence that there was any religious motivation for his actions.
Ah, spoken like a true American who feels entitled to be a douchebag.
When the rest of the world decides they're tired of your shit, you can likely expect to see a backlash against the US.
I can see governments basically saying "we're not buying your stuff, we're not hosting your bases, we're sure as hell not working with you and we don't give a fuck".
America likes to think their interests trump everyone else's. But I see a time coming where other governments start saying "fuck you".
Take it easy mate..being a douchebag is the only right we have left...
blindly antisocialist = antisocial
Good luck, the last world leader who tried to trade oil in something other than US dollars was soon hiding in a hole in the ground while his country burned down around him...
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
Let's get real. The worst christians is Westboro Baptist Church and what do they do? Protest funerals and tell everyone how gay lovers will burn in hell. Let's try an experiment: Paint Jesus in Feces in a Christian country and see what the worst thing that will happen to you as a result? Next, pain Mohammed in feces and see what will happen to you in a Muslim country. Or even a European one (death threats anyone)?
Oh wait, you were trying to make a lame attempt at equating the two.
George W. Bush: 'God told me to end the tyranny in Iraq'
From http://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/oct/07/iraq.usa:
> One of the delegates, Nabil Shaath, who was Palestinian foreign minister at the time, said: "President Bush said to all of us: 'I am driven with a mission from God'. God would tell me, 'George go and fight these terrorists in Afghanistan'. And I did. And then God would tell me 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq'. And I did."
> Mr Bush went on: "And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, 'Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East'. And, by God, I'm gonna do it."
Invading nations for religious beliefs seems serious. I don't think Bush was talking about Allah. Westboro Baptist Church isn't in his league.
... not a valid argument for any NSA actions against a friendly country.
Friendly? Try walking into any French restaurant and speaking with an American (or British or German) accent, and tell us how friendly they are.
(OK; this is a cheap shot. Everyone already knew about this, right? ;-)
Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
. Besides, the conspiracy theorist in my head thinks a lot of this is faux outrage on the part of the French government. I'm willing to bet that similar to the UK, the NSA is sharing all the information they're getting from the French taps with the DCRI (or other French intelligence service).
Such a conspiracy theory does make a lot of sense. Consider that the main PR approach in the US is to say that the intel agencies can't (legally ;-) spy on US citizens; they're only (legally ;-) allowed to spy on foreigners. This is just what they're accused of doing in this case, and it's legal under US law.
And to the French government, it's really useful. They can act outraged in public, while listening to their copies of the recordings, and be confident that nothing can be done (legally ;-) against it because the NSA is beyond the reach of any French laws or courts.
Sounds like a win-win situation to me, at least from the viewpoint of the US and French governments. And in both countries, the "people" don't matter, because both governments can satisfy them with their own PR based on this story.
Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.