NSA Intercepted French Telephone Calls "On a Massive Scale"

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NSA Intercepted French Telephone Calls "On a Massive Scale"

Posted by Unknown on Monday October 21, 2013 @03:26AM from the french-people-don't-deserve-privacy dept.

rtoz writes "The US National Security Agency (NSA) has been intercepting French telephone calls 'on a massive scale,' according to a report published in Le Monde. According to Le Monde, the NSA recorded millions of telephone calls placed by French citizens over a 30-day period last year, including some placed by people with no connections to terrorist organizations. France called in the U.S. ambassador to protest the alleged large-scale spying on French citizens by NSA."

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Muslims by benjfowler · 2013-10-21 03:29 · Score: -1, Flamebait

France is 5% Muslim, and given how feral and out-of-control their minorities are, I'd say they're fair game.
1. Re:Muslims by rubycodez · 2013-10-21 03:32 · Score: 1, Insightful
  
  America is 75% christian, and given how feral and out-of-countrol some of the groups are, I'd say they're fair game.
2. Re:Muslims by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 03:34 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  France is 5% Muslim, and given how feral and out-of-control their minorities are, I'd say they're fair game.
  Ah, spoken like a true American who feels entitled to be a douchebag.
  When the rest of the world decides they're tired of your shit, you can likely expect to see a backlash against the US.
  I can see governments basically saying "we're not buying your stuff, we're not hosting your bases, we're sure as hell not working with you and we don't give a fuck".
  America likes to think their interests trump everyone else's. But I see a time coming where other governments start saying "fuck you".
3. Re:Muslims by DoofusOfDeath · 2013-10-21 03:35 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  Saying your $FOO doesn't mean you're really a $FOO as described by $FOO.SACRED_WRITINGS.
4. Re:Muslims by Joehonkie · 2013-10-21 03:38 · Score: 5, Funny
  
  America is 75% christian, and given how feral and out-of-countrol some of the groups are, I'd say they're fair game.
  Apparently the NSA agreed with you.
5. Re:Muslims by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 03:38 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  With "allies" like your country no one needs enemies.
6. Re:Muslims by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 03:39 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  Let's get real. The worst christians is Westboro Baptist Church and what do they do? Protest funerals and tell everyone how gay lovers will burn in hell. Let's try an experiment: Paint Jesus in Feces in a Christian country and see what the worst thing that will happen to you as a result? Next, pain Mohammed in feces and see what will happen to you in a Muslim country. Or even a European one (death threats anyone)?
  Oh wait, you were trying to make a lame attempt at equating the two.
7. Re:Muslims by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 03:40 · Score: 0
  
  Saying your $FOO [...]
  *You're
8. Re:Muslims by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 03:43 · Score: 0
  
  "When the rest of the world decides they're tired of your shit, you can likely expect to see a backlash against the US.
  I can see governments basically saying 'we're not buying your stuff, we're not hosting your bases, we're sure as hell not working with you and we don't give a fuck' ".
  Sure... right up to the point their sad little country gets overrun by extremists, then all come running back to the US asking for aid. Sure... waiting for you to be right... *rolls eyes*
9. Re:Muslims by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 03:44 · Score: -1
  
  Well, we all know the Muzzies are just as likely to say hello to you or to blow themselves up. You can't really blame them for being paranoid. It's a rational action to take.
10. Re:Muslims by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 03:44 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  Westboro Baptist is worse than Christian terrorist Timothy McVeigh? Or the people who bomb abortion clinics and shoot doctors? And if you want I can continue listing other domestic terrorism by Christians.
  And don't even try the "they aren't true Christians" nonsense.
11. Re:Muslims by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 03:44 · Score: 1
  
  Every-US-based cloud service (Azure, Amazon, Google etc) has become unreliable and unusable for non-US citizens. Just wait and see us run away from those services.
  I suppose the US government will not compensate those companies for their loss.
12. Re:Muslims by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 03:45 · Score: 1
  
  Not to mention the fact that the Westboro Baptists are obviously a troll group and not a sincere church. Fred Phelps used to be a civil rights lawyer for God's sake.
13. Re:Muslims by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 03:45 · Score: 2, Funny
  
  Better go tell the Foo Fighters.
14. Re:Muslims by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 03:46 · Score: 1
  
  Let's get real. The worst christians is Westboro Baptist Church and what do they do? Protest funerals and tell everyone how gay lovers will burn in hell. Let's try an experiment: Paint Jesus in Feces in a Christian country and see what the worst thing that will happen to you as a result? Next, pain Mohammed in feces and see what will happen to you in a Muslim country. Or even a European one (death threats anyone)?
  Oh wait, you were trying to make a lame attempt at equating the two.
  Are you seriously trying to say that there would not be one death threat, and no possibility of it being carried out, from a Christian over such an experiment? Have you lived on this planet long?
15. Re:Muslims by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 03:48 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  Are you telling me that WBC is worse than those "christians" bombing clinics, killing doctors, spread hate and starts war like bush just because "god told me"?
  Have you even seen some of those christians? Muslims are no worse than christians, just watch africa, and see what the christian militias such as sudanese christian militias roaming around and raping , LRA (congo, heard of kony?) and other places, or do you really think that every fucking militia in africa is muslim or animist? There is one major religion in Africa and it's christianity, look at south africa, not only were they christian but they also used bible verses to support their apartheid.
16. Re:Muslims by Desler · 2013-10-21 03:48 · Score: 2
  
  There are far more Muslims in the US than there is in France. So you might mind all your calls being tapped by foreign intelligence agencies, right?
17. Re:Muslims by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 03:51 · Score: 0
  
  http://prochoice.org/about_abortion/violence/history_extreme.asp
18. Re:Muslims by CanHasDIY · 2013-10-21 03:53 · Score: 1
  
  Let's get real. The worst Christians are Westboro Baptist Church, and what do they do?
  First, FTFY.
  Second, you're living in a fantasy land if you think the WBC is the be-all-end-all for asshole "Christians" in the USA.
  Try telling that to the family of Dr. George Tiller, you ignorant prick.
  
  --
  An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
19. Re:Muslims by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 03:54 · Score: 1
  
  When the rest of the world decides they're tired of your shit, you can likely expect to see a backlash against the US.
  I was under the impression that this is exactly what's happening. And that the US feels it must "work, though, sort of the dark side" as a result.
20. Re:Muslims by PRMan · 2013-10-21 03:55 · Score: -1, Troll
  
  Have you seen some of those atheists? Hitler, Stalin and Mao make Muslims and especially Christians look like rank amateurs. And, quite frankly, I don't know of anyone who actually believes that Kony is a Christian, despite the name of their army.
  
  --
  Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
21. Re:Muslims by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 03:55 · Score: 0
  
  Israel is 16.5% Muslim, if you don't count the untermenschens in the West Bank that Israel is trying to cleanse away.
22. Re:Muslims by Desler · 2013-10-21 03:56 · Score: 1
  
  Might = won't.
23. Re:Muslims by Jeremiah+Cornelius · 2013-10-21 03:56 · Score: 3, Funny
  
  Not to mention the fact that the Westboro Baptists are obviously a troll group and not a sincere church. Fred Phelps used to be a civil rights lawyer for God's sake.
  I get what you mean. They are a US domestic CIA PsyOp. It's always been evident.
  
  --
  "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
  Never been known to fail..."
24. Re:Muslims by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 03:57 · Score: -1
  
  Yes, but to which country are you referring? At first glance, you could be speaking towards America from the perspective of a Frenchman; but remember in World War 2 it was the French who were waving white flags and generally being cheese-eating surrender-monkeys while America was storming the beaches and saving the world from Fascism. Sacre' Bleu!
  So I ask you, Froggie McTadpole, with "allies" like the French, who needs enemies? I know what you need -- a greasy, heaping helping of Freedom Fries!
  -- Ethanol-fueled
25. Re:Muslims by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 04:02 · Score: 0
  
  Yeah, Atheists definitely win the "Brutal, senseless, overwhelming genocide" game.
  Their High Scores are almost untouchable.
26. Re:Muslims by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 04:02 · Score: 0
  
  Oh wait, you were trying to make a lame attempt at equating the two.
  He's actually doing a reductio ad absurdum, to underline how silly the premise is. That doesn't mean the christian majority of US is as aggressive as the Muslim minority of Europe. They are much, much more dangerous because they, aside from a few extremists, are the only ones acting out their delusions of world control.
27. Re:Muslims by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 04:03 · Score: 0
  
  Plus i hear Christians have their huge number of followers by offering the best overall package, not by killing anyone with different beliefs.
28. Re:Muslims by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 04:04 · Score: 0
  
  They're still needed more than the French. Their place on the Security Council is a pity-vote because "They used to be a big deal guys!"
29. Re:Muslims by rubycodez · 2013-10-21 04:06 · Score: 1
  
  you are funny. Hitler was a Christian.
  To say nothing of the Christian support in this country for waging wars of choice against "godless heathen" in middle east
30. Re:Muslims by rubycodez · 2013-10-21 04:07 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  Hitler was not an atheist. He was a Roman Catholic, and had agreements and treaties with the Vatican
31. Re:Muslims by SuricouRaven · 2013-10-21 04:09 · Score: 1
  
  But every time someone tries to read the writings, they get a different interpretation.
32. Re:Muslims by camperdave · 2013-10-21 04:10 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  I think he's saying that while you may get death threats in the States, in a Muslim country you wouldn't live long enough to get death threats. In the US, such a painting is would be protected speech. In Muslim countries, this would be a government mandated death penalty.
  
  --
  When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
33. Re:Muslims by SuricouRaven · 2013-10-21 04:11 · Score: 1
  
  WBC are mostly harmless. Much as I hate to defend them, they have always been non-violent protesters - and to keep their cool is quite an achievement given the type of (well-earned) abuse that has been directed at them. I think it helps that they have a real persecution complex going, so the more hated they are the more they feel justified in their beliefs.
34. Re:Muslims by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 04:12 · Score: 0, Flamebait
  
  That's debatable, but even taking Hitler out of the mix, the Atheists still have the High Score.
35. Re:Muslims by camperdave · 2013-10-21 04:13 · Score: 1
  
  The US only holds its power because oil is traded in US dollars. Once we shift that to bitcoins, the US will be toast.
  
  --
  When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
36. Re:Muslims by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 04:13 · Score: 0
  
  75% of Americans think they are Christians, and given how feral and out-of-countrol some of the groups are, I'd say they're fair game.
  FTFY
37. Re:Muslims by DoofusOfDeath · 2013-10-21 04:15 · Score: 1
  
  Yes, I wept bitter tears after seeing that I'd posted that typo.
38. Re:Muslims by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 04:17 · Score: 0
  
  Yeah, like serbia did before '99 ... oh wait.. you've bombed Christian serbia (gas rafineries, tobacco/cigarette plants, etc), to "protect" the muslims in kosovo.
39. Re:Muslims by gl4ss · 2013-10-21 04:17 · Score: 1, Troll
  
  for many conservative, trading, countries usa is the extreme and has been for several decades - dictating who we can trade and with what tech(in the past limiting our trade with russia/ussr, for example, because our tech was too good for them).
  if we're overrun by extremists then that probably would be the extremists that don't want aid(or rules) who would be in charge. heck, we'd probably go as refugees to another european country since going as refugees to usa doesn't seem to be working for anyone lately.
  but it doesn't really work to be doing trade with someone who is cheating all the fucking time and breaking all the fucking rules all the fucking time with the defense that "it's ok since you're not our citizens". something has to give - most logical thing to go is the assumption that we would investigate hacking originating from our nations if usa asks since you're giving free cards to your operatives to break our communications laws.
  because that's less extreme than kidnapping those operatives by force and we're not that extreme even if usa is when it doesn't bother with pesky extradition requests. those operatives are endangering OUR national security so according to the ground rules of engagement put into place by USA it would be well within our rights to go and snipe those guys and then say in the UN "well it was legal! we have a paper that we wrote that says it was legal!"
  I mean how much more extreme could you get? smuggling kidnapped non-pow non-prisoner-status prisoners through our airports? ordering collateral damage ok killings on people based on hearsay, in areas technically not in war, without warning? using agreedly torturing techniques to interrogate people you have no idea if they know anything? spying on your allies, enemies and own people on massive scale? smuggling drugs to finance a conflict? selling guns to known gun-runners? how much more extreme can you really get without an open civil war?
  Add isolationist to the list too since compared to the size it's fucking hard to legally move in to pay taxes(compared to just about any other picky country like Norway, Russia or even China).
  So yeah probably the last country to go ask for help. last time we did you sent us shitty airplanes and then became allies with the guys who attacked us - making even fucking bona fide original nazis a better companion in the situation!
  and marshall aid? not a cent for us! we paid reparations!
  
  --
  world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
40. Re:Muslims by ShanghaiBill · 2013-10-21 04:18 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  Westboro Baptist is worse than Christian terrorist Timothy McVeigh?
  Timothy McVeigh was raised as a Roman Catholic, but later claimed to be agnostic. There is no evidence that there was any religious motivation for his actions.
  
  And don't even try the "they aren't true Christians" nonsense.
  You are equating far less than 1% of Christians with 80% or more of Muslims. 90% of Pakistani Muslims think people should be executed for blasphemy. 40% of Pakistani Muslims feel that the 10% who are willing to tolerate blasphemy should also be executed. This is not theoretical. Salmaan Taseer, a Pakistani politician was murdered, not for blasphemy, but merely for advocating the abolition of the death penalty for blasphemy. There was widespread approval of his murder. How many Christians support abortion clinic bombers?
41. Re:Muslims by Big+Hairy+Ian · 2013-10-21 04:20 · Score: 1
  
  And as usual fashionably late to the party :)
  
  --
  Build a Man a Fire, and He'll Be Warm for a Day. Set a Man on Fire, and He'll Be Warm for the Rest of His Life.
42. Re:Muslims by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 04:21 · Score: 0
  
  The worst christians is Westboro Baptist Church
  I think the child-raping priests of the Catholic church are considerably worse.
43. Re:Muslims by Rob+the+Bold · 2013-10-21 04:21 · Score: 1
  
  WBC are mostly harmless. Much as I hate to defend them, they have always been non-violent protesters - and to keep their cool is quite an achievement given the type of (well-earned) abuse that has been directed at them. I think it helps that they have a real persecution complex going, so the more hated they are the more they feel justified in their beliefs.
  They do have some more subtle (but quite illegal) tactics up their sleeves. A friend of mine got investigated by the cops after an encounter with the Phelpsies. His sister was riding shotgun and shouted some of that well-earned abuse at them. They took down his (partial) license number and (mostly correct) paint color and reported him for a hit-and-run. The cops paid a visit and examined his car. Luckily, he didn't have any body damage, so that was the extent of the investigation . . .
  
  --
  I am not a crackpot.
44. Re:Muslims by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 04:28 · Score: 0
  
  Let's get real. The worst christians is Westboro Baptist Church and what do they do? Protest funerals and tell everyone how gay lovers will burn in hell. .
  I call Eric Rudolph rather worse than the Phelps gang, just to name one example.
45. Re:Muslims by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 04:33 · Score: 0
  
  http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Association_fallacy
  Followed by
  http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/No_True_Scotsman
  The fact that Stalin and Mao were atheists is not why they did what they did; as atheism lacks any doctrine or credo to execute, it is incidental to the fact. The fact that you don't think Kony isn't a Christian because he isn't what you want a Christian to be doesn't mean that he isn't one; it means you don't like him very much.
46. Re:Muslims by thaylin · 2013-10-21 04:36 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  Really, when you take into account the witch trials, the crusades, the conquistadors, the slavers and every other Christian atrocity out there the Atheists are still the worst?
  
  --
  When you cant win, ad hominem.
47. Re:Muslims by Shoten · 2013-10-21 04:42 · Score: 1
  
  But every time someone tries to read the writings, they get a different interpretation.
  Good point...hey! That gives me an idea!
  LET'S BUILD A PRNG BASED ON THE SACRED WRITINGS!
  (oh, wait...no, that won't work. A lot of what people say based on their interpretations of the sacred writings is actually quite predictable...damn!)
  
  --
  
  For your security, this post has been encrypted with ROT-13, twice.
48. Re:Muslims by Kilo+Kilo · 2013-10-21 04:44 · Score: 1
  
  I think this video sums up the whole Muslim vs. Christian debate pretty well. Gives a real behind-the-scenes view of what's going on.
49. Re:Muslims by lanswitch · 2013-10-21 04:48 · Score: 1
  
  Oh, is that the reason you are eavesdropping on my conversations?
50. Re:Muslims by Shoten · 2013-10-21 04:49 · Score: 2
  
  Let's get real. The worst christians is Westboro Baptist Church and what do they do? Protest funerals and tell everyone how gay lovers will burn in hell. Let's try an experiment: Paint Jesus in Feces in a Christian country and see what the worst thing that will happen to you as a result? Next, pain Mohammed in feces and see what will happen to you in a Muslim country. Or even a European one (death threats anyone)?
  Oh wait, you were trying to make a lame attempt at equating the two.
  WBC is the most vocally odious, but there are many groups that have been much, much worse. Let's start with pretty much the entire white supremacist movement. Aryan Nations considered themselves a (quote) "White Christian Separatist" organization. That's right, these are literally Nazis we're talking about. (How often can someone play the Nazi Card on the Internet while actually stating an objective fact, eh?) Then there are splinter groups like the Louisiana-based "Church of the Sons of Yahweh" (that's "Church," not "delicatessen" or "mosque" or "nearby diner"), and other competing organizations like The Order. Oh, let's keep in mind why the KKK burns crosses...they too identify themselves as a Christian organization.
  Now, all of these are fringe groups; I don't mean to infer that this is how most Christians, or even a significant percentage of them, think or act. But they all make the WBC look like internet trolls playing Xbox by comparison. WBC is NOT the worst there is.
  
  --
  
  For your security, this post has been encrypted with ROT-13, twice.
51. Re:Muslims by vlueboy · 2013-10-21 04:57 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  I can continue listing other domestic terrorism by Christians.
  And don't even try the "they aren't true Christians" nonsense.
  A random dictionary's definition of christian:a person who believes in the teachings of Jesus Christ
  I would *add* that "believing" is not enough, and practicing is where the true follower is...
  But Jesus gave his own litmus test, so why must you and I try to define "true" christian and waste time with the "no true scottsman fallacy": "By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another" (John 13:35)
  There is no "love" in blowing people up and doing what some of these churches are individually doing to blemish the name of who they claim to follow. Jesus knew this about the wolves entering the flock. See Acts 20:29. The net result? false doctrine and interpretation create a rift between people and God.
52. Re:Muslims by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 04:58 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  Thanks for making up some stats so we can all know the truth.
53. Re:Muslims by fnj · 2013-10-21 04:59 · Score: 1
  
  There are far more Muslims in the US than there is in France.
  You might want to get a clue before before making silly declarations. It takes about one minute on Wikipedia to settle the fact.
  France: 4.7 million, 7.5%
  USA: 2.6 million, 0.8%
54. Re:Muslims by pscottdv · 2013-10-21 05:03 · Score: 1, Informative
  
  Worst? Depends on definition.
  Ahead in the numbers? Yes.
  http://www.examiner.com/article/atheist-vs-christian-whose-killed-more-and-who-will-survive
  
  --
  this signature has been removed due to a DMCA takedown notice
55. Re:Muslims by AmiMoJo · 2013-10-21 05:12 · Score: 1
  
  There are no true Scotsmen either.
  In any case the original writings contradict each other, so no-one could be said to be described by them all, only some selected subset.
  
  --
  const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
  SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
56. Re:Muslims by thaylin · 2013-10-21 05:13 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  So we are comparing Christians who killed for their Gods the religious, and the Leaders who killed for their Country Atheists? So does that make the US fall into the former or the latter with its wars...
  That article makes no sense what so ever. Atheists do not believe in a god, but the article claims that communists believe their leader is a god, and there for they are atheists.
  Actually the more I read the article the more ridiculous it gets. They claim that atheists and communist have no moral code, which is a blatantly false logical fallacy.
  When you have an article that backs up your claim that is not almost entirely over generalizations come talk to me.
  
  --
  When you cant win, ad hominem.
57. Re:Muslims by Nemyst · 2013-10-21 05:19 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  This article once again makes false equivalences. The deaths from the Crusades were made directly because of religious reasons; the Crusades themselves were inherently religious. On the other hand, many, many deaths at the hands of Stalin or Mao had absolutely nothing to do with their atheism. If you want to play that game, then you'd have to tally up all the murders and wars of each and every single country outside of possibly the last fifty years under "religious" because their leaders or perpetrators were religious.
58. Re:Muslims by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · 2013-10-21 05:19 · Score: 1
  
  Hopefully the cops went back and charged the individual who call in the hit and run with making a false police report.
  
  --
  Time to offend someone
59. Re:Muslims by cold+fjord · 2013-10-21 05:24 · Score: 0
  
  With "allies" like your country no one needs enemies.
  If your country is in Europe and is a US ally today, chances are that it had been occupied by its enemy (either state or political party) and the US helped remove that enemy and return government to the people. That covers the West, and in some cases was a redo from 25 years before. As to the East, the US allied with newly free Western Europe against the Soviet empire in the East, supported freedom movements and dissidents there, and continued to defend Western Europe until Soviet rule collapsed and most of Eastern Europe was free as well.
  The US paid a price in both blood and treasure to free Europe and keep it free, and contributed to its rebuilding.
  The few people remaining that remember what it was like to be under the boot of a real enemy are probably more clear on this question than you are. Maybe you should find out what it was like before you do something stupid. And I think it is likely that Europe is going to be in big trouble in 30-50 years, so hold that thought.
  
  --
  much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
60. Re:Muslims by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 05:34 · Score: 0
  
  Those fine people who dropped nukes on Japan were certainly not Muslim, and probably good ole God fearin US guys.
61. Re:Muslims by jalopezp · 2013-10-21 05:37 · Score: 1
  Some examples, from the wiki:
  
  player name: low-high scores (faction) - comments
  Mao : 47m-78m (communism) - These include the huge famine during the great leap forward.
  Genghis Khan: 50m-70m (despotism) - the mongol hoard's motivation is debated. By percentage of world population, this wins by far.
  Stalin: 8m-61m (communism) - Most recent estimates around 15m, very strong still.
  Hitler: 4m-17m (fascism) - Estimates vary on how many WW2 casualties are blamed on him.
  Leopold II: 5m-22m (imperialism) - In 2005, a statue of him was re-erected in Kinshasa, the culture minister of the DRC pointing out the positive aspects of his reign. source
  American Genocide: 2m-100m (Imperialism, Christianity) - This one is particularly difficult, as it was not committed by a single individual, and estimates of the pre-colombian population of America (the continent) variy widely. The genocide is also very debated, but I think we can at least agree on geno-manslaughter.
  Religious wars? Up to 10 million. The inquisition? tens of thousands. Aztec human sacrifices? Up to 3 million.
  Atheists, Christians and Muslims have nothing on social reformers and empire builders. Checkmate, economists
62. Re:Muslims by rubycodez · 2013-10-21 05:42 · Score: 1
  
  I know some fine Christian people who were all for causing hundred of thousands of deaths in Iraq, and a politician in a Jewish Theocracy was told by their President "God told me I should attack Iraq".
63. Re:Muslims by thaylin · 2013-10-21 05:45 · Score: 1
  
  Well that does not actually counter my point, which was between the 2 which is worse.
  
  --
  When you cant win, ad hominem.
64. Re:Muslims by tippe · 2013-10-21 05:48 · Score: 4, Funny
  
  You can come up with statistics to prove anything, AC. Forty percent of all people know that.
65. Re:Muslims by ImOuttaHere · 2013-10-21 05:49 · Score: 2
  
  Er... then why did 'ol Tim McV hang out with that wacked out christian identity group? To convert them to agnostism? I think not.
  In America, if you are Muslim and spew rhetoric against the State, you are arrested, "tried", and sent to jail. In the self-same America, if you are a Christian and spew rhetoric against the State, you are allowed to continue based on your 1st amendment rights. So much for equal application of the American ideal...
  
  Westboro Baptist is worse than Christian terrorist Timothy McVeigh?
  Timothy McVeigh was raised as a Roman Catholic, but later claimed to be agnostic. There is no evidence that there was any religious motivation for his actions.
66. Re:Muslims by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 05:51 · Score: 0
  
  Yeah, and how many Asians were killed by "bringing Christian Civilization to Asia" ? The British even ran official Drug Pushing Companies in China. Japan was "opened" at gunpoint from frigates.
  The Abrahamics are first-rate whack-jobs because they simply declare to be in posession of the truth and being driven by a single god etc etc.
  America got their spanking from Chinese and Vietnamese nationalists and rightfully so. They first destroyed harmony in Asia and now they bitch, bitch, bitch. Maybe have your head and your jealous religion examined. That could go great lengths.
67. Re:Muslims by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 05:59 · Score: 0
  
  Plus the blueprint for exterminating the jews was the extermination of Huguenots in France, much earlier.
  You should really get an education before you repeat the Official Imperium Propaganda Line.
68. Re:Muslims by ShanghaiBill · 2013-10-21 06:09 · Score: 1
  
  then why did 'ol Tim McV hang out with that wacked out christian identity group?
  What group? Do you have a citation? He joined a militia, but I don't believe they had any religious orientation. The other militia members have said that McVeigh was not a popular member, because he wanted to talk about politics, and everyone else wanted to go out in the woods and play with paintball guns.
  Tim McVeigh self-identified as an agnostic. He claimed to have no religious affiliation, and no religious group has claimed him as a member. He has stated repeatedly that his motivations were political, not religious. There is no reason to label him a "Christian terrorist".
69. Re:Muslims by HornWumpus · 2013-10-21 06:15 · Score: 1, Insightful
  
  The crusades were two cultures fighting for control.
  If that was inherently religious then the 20th century culture war was inherently about Atheism.
  Population growth still puts the total for atheists at the top.
  
  --
  John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
70. Re:Muslims by aaaaaaargh! · 2013-10-21 06:27 · Score: 1
  
  You've got your numbers all wrong. The largest known genocide in the history of mankind so far was the genocide on the native indian americans with an estimated death toll of 40 to 90 million people, and it was (mostly) commited by Christians. (That does not even include the parallel mass killings committed by slave traders, all of which were Christians, too.)
71. Re:Muslims by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 06:30 · Score: 0
  
  and lets not forget 20+ million dead in holy wars sanctioned by the infallible pope.
72. Re:Muslims by sociocapitalist · 2013-10-21 06:45 · Score: 2
  
  France is 5% Muslim, and given how feral and out-of-control their minorities are, I'd say they're fair game.
  Ah, spoken like a true American who feels entitled to be a douchebag.
  When the rest of the world decides they're tired of your shit, you can likely expect to see a backlash against the US.
  I can see governments basically saying "we're not buying your stuff, we're not hosting your bases, we're sure as hell not working with you and we don't give a fuck".
  America likes to think their interests trump everyone else's. But I see a time coming where other governments start saying "fuck you".
  Take it easy mate..being a douchebag is the only right we have left...
  
  --
  blindly antisocialist = antisocial
73. Re:Muslims by GameboyRMH · 2013-10-21 06:49 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  Good luck, the last world leader who tried to trade oil in something other than US dollars was soon hiding in a hole in the ground while his country burned down around him...
  
  --
  "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
74. Re:Muslims by Subm · 2013-10-21 06:53 · Score: 2
  
  Let's get real. The worst christians is Westboro Baptist Church and what do they do? Protest funerals and tell everyone how gay lovers will burn in hell. Let's try an experiment: Paint Jesus in Feces in a Christian country and see what the worst thing that will happen to you as a result? Next, pain Mohammed in feces and see what will happen to you in a Muslim country. Or even a European one (death threats anyone)?
  Oh wait, you were trying to make a lame attempt at equating the two.
  George W. Bush: 'God told me to end the tyranny in Iraq'
  From http://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/oct/07/iraq.usa:
  > One of the delegates, Nabil Shaath, who was Palestinian foreign minister at the time, said: "President Bush said to all of us: 'I am driven with a mission from God'. God would tell me, 'George go and fight these terrorists in Afghanistan'. And I did. And then God would tell me 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq'. And I did."
  > Mr Bush went on: "And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, 'Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East'. And, by God, I'm gonna do it."
  Invading nations for religious beliefs seems serious. I don't think Bush was talking about Allah. Westboro Baptist Church isn't in his league.
75. Re:Muslims by xevioso · 2013-10-21 06:57 · Score: 1
  
  Do you disagree with his statistics? Have some that you can find of your own?
76. Re:Muslims by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 07:07 · Score: 0
  
  I beg to differ:
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mit_brennender_Sorge
77. Re: Muslims by jd2112 · 2013-10-21 07:15 · Score: 1
  
  WBC is a church in name (and tax exempt status) only. What they do makes baby Jesus cry.
  
  --
  Any insufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology.
78. Re:Muslims by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 07:21 · Score: 0
  
  The worst christians is Westboro Baptist Church and what do they do?
  There's a city called Srebrenica. Have you ever heard of it?
79. Re:Muslims by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 07:24 · Score: 0
  
  Gotta be in on the transition call. You know these temp-agency agents monitoring corporate phone lines are just looking for insider information.
80. Re:Muslims by qbast · 2013-10-21 07:35 · Score: 1
  
  With "allies" like your country no one needs enemies.
  If your country is in Europe and is a US ally today, chances are that it had been occupied by its enemy (either state or political party) and the US helped remove that enemy and return government to the people. That covers the West, and in some cases was a redo from 25 years before. As to the East, the US allied with newly free Western Europe against the Soviet empire in the East, supported freedom movements and dissidents there, and continued to defend Western Europe until Soviet rule collapsed and most of Eastern Europe was free as well.
  USA sold whole east of Europe to Stalin ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yalta_Conference ), so don't expect much gratitude there.
81. Re:Muslims by cold+fjord · 2013-10-21 07:54 · Score: 1
  
  Sold? Not so much. Stalin claimed Eastern Europe for his sphere of influence, and had the Soviet Red Army in place to occupy it. How do you think a different outcome would have occurred? The Poles certainly were grateful for assistance against the Soviets in the 1980s when the Solidarity movement was challenging Communist oppression.
  
  --
  much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
82. Re:Muslims by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 08:05 · Score: 0
  
  let's keep in mind why the KKK burns crosses...they too identify themselves as a Christian organization.
  Is that why all those Arab dudes burn the stars and stripes, they just want to be Americans too?
83. Re: Muslims by echnaton192 · 2013-10-21 08:07 · Score: 1
  
  You are absolutely right. It's funny that the same country that overturned my government and gave us democracy nowadays has fewer democracy and freedom than we do.
  As a German who is absolutely thankful that wearing black and skulls does mean I am a Goth instead of a SS murderer, this is a shame. Shame on your country for spitting on the graves of everyone that died for freedom in the second world war to stop my ancestors from destroying the earth.
  In every thread you are defending the techniques Mr. Snowden revealed. You did not read or did not understand George Orwells dystopia. Shame on you. You are a traitor to everything the USA stood for in former times. Your country encouraged German newspapers to criticize both our Government and yours alike. Now you are relentlessly trying to shut down the freedom of the press in the USA and europe alike.
  You have repeatedly defended every action the NSA was taking without any hint of criticism, I followed your comments for quite a while. Shame on you.
84. Re:Muslims by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 08:22 · Score: 0
  
  right up to the point their sad little country gets overrun by extremists
  You mean, like the US has been?
85. Re:Muslims by MaskedSlacker · 2013-10-21 08:45 · Score: 1
  
  Do you always taste test your tears?
86. Re:Muslims by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 09:15 · Score: 0
  
  I think he's saying that while you may get death threats in the States, in a Muslim country you wouldn't live long enough to get death threats. In the US, such a painting is would be protected speech. In Muslim countries, this would be a government mandated death penalty.
  **All** muslim countries? It's never a good idea to generalize it makes you look like ignorant bigot. Unless that's what you are going for in, which case you have succeeded.
87. Re:Muslims by dunkelfalke · 2013-10-21 10:51 · Score: 1
  
  Neither was Stalin, by the way. He was a Georgian Orthodox and even went to a seminary to become a priest.
  
  --
  "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
88. Re:Muslims by dunkelfalke · 2013-10-21 10:58 · Score: 1
  
  Right in your link other sources say it is 7 millions in the USA. When numbers vary that much, they are worthless.
  
  --
  "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
89. Re:Muslims by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 14:17 · Score: 0
  
  But Jesus gave his own litmus test, so why must you and I try to define "true" christian and waste time with the "no true scottsman fallacy [wikipedia.org]": "By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another [biblehub.com]" (John 13:35)
  Does this mean we can remove all those people who claim to be christian? Or do we just revoke their tax-exempt status?
90. Re:Muslims by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 14:25 · Score: 0
  
  America - most christian country - most imprisoned, most excecuted, most wars.
  Any atheist country - much better than being America.
  Atheists are the best, also christians are the worst (yes worse than muslims).
91. Re:Muslims by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 14:31 · Score: 0
  
  I can see christianity and the inquisition on the list, where is atheism?
  
  If Obama was an Atheist, does that then mean all Americans are fighting for Atheism when they bomb middle east countries?
  Are they fighting for their religion or their country (, or their paycheck even)?
92. Re:Muslims by Rob+the+Bold · 2013-10-21 15:24 · Score: 1
  
  Hopefully the cops went back and charged the individual who call in the hit and run with making a false police report.
  I hope so too, but I doubt it. My friend didn't put two and two together for several days after the visit from the constabulary. And it was his local police department, acting on behalf of the police in the city where the drive-by shaming occurred, who investigated. Since he never reported his suspicions, and the Phelpsies were vague enough in their description of the car to provide plausible deniability -- but accurate enough to narrow it down to just one guy -- they probably got away with it.
  
  --
  I am not a crackpot.
93. Re:Muslims by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 15:43 · Score: 0
  
  Christian serbia was slaughtering civilians. And if the christian croats had continued they would've been bombed too. But maybe you don't care if christians slaughter a couple of thousand muslims at a time, if they create camps where they hunger to death and if they make "muslim soap" as long as they are christians doing it?
94. Re:Muslims by whistlingtony · 2013-10-21 16:08 · Score: 1
  
  I can't believe you got +5 insightful for making up some really stupid statistics about entire swaths of people in an incredibly racist manner. You have no idea what 90% of Pakistani muslims think about blasphemy. But using your method, I think 90% of Christians support abortion clinic bombers....... (which is obviously a stupid thing to say).
  I know several muslims. They're all very nice, and they don't deserve your drivel.
95. Re:Muslims by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 16:28 · Score: 0
  
  >
  Sure... right up to the point their sad little country gets overrun by extremists
  lol. You live in a cartoon world. Grow up.
96. Re:Muslims by Maritz · 2013-10-21 16:38 · Score: 1
  
  And I think it is likely that Europe is going to be in big trouble in 30-50 years, so hold that thought.
  Terrifying. I presume your crystal ball is predicting rivers of chocolate and rainbow farting unicorns as far as the eye can see for the good ol' USA.
  The arrogance in 'hold that thought' stuns me.
  
  --
  I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
97. Re:Muslims by jalopezp · 2013-10-21 21:23 · Score: 1
  
  Presumably what you want to know is whether people motivated by religion or by atheism have killed the most people. It is a difficult question to answer for several reasons. Some believe being motivated by communism implies being motivated by atheism, while others do not. We do not really know how many people died during the colonisation of the americas, nor how many of those deaths to attribute to religiously inspired action. As for what there is to count, we should really focus on wars and 20th century atrocities. It turns out we weren't really killing each other on a mass scale before the age of empire; every once in a while somebody would destroy a city and kill tens of thousands, but aside from Genghis Khan, who may have caused the world's population to drop by about 15%, that is nothing compared to modern tyrants. Similarly, the historic murder rate in Europe is thought to be around 20 per 100000, which would total no more than 10000 people per year, paling in comparison to the death caused by wars. The Inquisition, witch trials, even pogroms (violence in pogroms was usually turned against property, rather than people) did not kill enough people to register in this scale. So here are a few options:
  * Stalin and Mao, etc. do not play for atheism - Religious have killed more by a large margin, like tens of millions of dead against dozens.
  * Stalin and Mao are atheists, we take their total death estimates in the low end, and we take the pre-colombian population of the americas at ~100m, and we attribute all those deaths to religion (which is quite dubious) - Religious have killed more by a moderate margin.
  * Stalin and Mao are atheists, we use a reasonable estimate for the number of religious dead in the colonisation of America - Atheists have killed more, depending on how we toll up deaths, by up to an order of magnitude.
  Conclusion: you're not going to convince anyone one way or the other. I stand by my previous point - neither religion nor atheism has killed that many people, really. It's been war and the desire for power that has been killing us.
98. Re:Muslims by bluegutang · 2013-10-21 22:22 · Score: 1
  
  Most of the Indians were killed by diseases unintentionally spread by Europeans. That's tragic, but not exactly genocide. If the Indians had happened to suffer from equally lethal diseases, there would have been a much higher death toll in the Old World.
  And Spanish priests and bishops were among the strongest opponents of human rights abuses in the colonies, so it's a little strange to attribute those abuses to Christianity.
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartolom%C3%A9_de_las_Casas
99. Re:Muslims by thaylin · 2013-10-22 01:14 · Score: 1
  
  Because no one kills in the name of atheism. The name itself did not even use to mean those that do not believe in a deity, but those that do not believe in my deity.
  
  --
  When you cant win, ad hominem.
100. Re:Muslims by Desler · 2013-10-22 01:59 · Score: 1
  
  So "getting a clue" is cherry picking the low number out of the two that your source cites to win the argument? Why should I trust that the lower number is the accurate one when I've seen more estimates that are closer to the higher number.
101. Re:Muslims by Desler · 2013-10-22 02:07 · Score: 1
  
  Tim McVeigh self-identified as an agnostic.
  Nope that's total bullshit.
  
  TIME: Are you religious?
  MCVEIGH: I was raised Catholic. I was confirmed Catholic (received the sacrament of confirmation). Through my military years, I sort of lost touch with the religion. I never really picked it up, however I do maintain core beliefs.
  TIME: Do you believe in God?
  MCVEIGH: I do believe in a God, yes. But that's as far as I want to discuss. If I get too detailed on some things that are personal like that, it gives people an easier way alienate themselves from me and that's all they are looking for now.
  So he's an agnostic but clearly says he believes in God?
102. Re:Muslims by Desler · 2013-10-22 02:10 · Score: 1
  
  Obviously those should be "said" and "believed" since he is dead. But the point stands, he was not an agnostic. That's post hoc bullshit made up by right-wingers to distance McVeigh from Christianity by lying about his beliefs.
103. Re:Muslims by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-22 03:58 · Score: 0
  
  False dichotomy! Nice try though.
104. Re:Muslims by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-22 04:24 · Score: 0
  
  I think Hitler was raised christian, but wasn't christian at all, neither by actions nor beliefs. It looks like you are spreading false informations.
105. Re:Muslims by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-23 06:47 · Score: 0
  
  Israel is 16.5% Muslim
  No! That's impossible! Israel is a Jewish State! All counter evidence will be removed from existence into camps, or shot by our snipers!
Shills ahoy!! by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 03:30 · Score: 1

In b4 cold fjord and benjfowler make shill posts defending any and all actions of the NSa.
1. Re:Shills ahoy!! by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 03:57 · Score: 1
  
  Beat him by 9 minutes, nice!
2. Re:Shills ahoy!! by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 04:05 · Score: 1
  
  Possible all hydra heads to the same ultra right think tank run propagandist account maintainer(s). Charge: Influence discourse and muddy the water. Not that it matters, mods more than usually smack them down and their grovelling boot licking to power is actually entertaining at times. They work to discredit only their own accounts. Check how many times Cold Fjord has admitted he might have been wrong on the little things like say, WMD in Iraq. (Hint: Never).
3. Re:Shills ahoy!! by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 04:36 · Score: 0
  
  Yeah, these guys are not out to convince anyone of their extremist views. Just post some utter flamebait early in the story, and all reasonable discussion that might have erupted on the subject is relegated to well below the fold (as it were) and out of sight. If it even happens. Personally if I have to scroll past miles of such drivel I often just give up.
4. Re:Shills ahoy!! by davester666 · 2013-10-21 05:30 · Score: 1
  
  There's got to be a terrorist around here somewhere! I just know it.
  
  --
  Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
5. Re:Shills ahoy!! by echnaton192 · 2013-10-21 12:52 · Score: 1
  
  But look at cold fjords karma. Simply unbelievable. And so many enthusiasts following him. So there are enough people here with his agenda to get random mod points and mod him up.
Realities by cyberpocalypse · 2013-10-21 03:30 · Score: 1

"Foreign intelligence" speaks for itself. Any country complaining about it is playing a shell game. The reality is, they'd do the same if they had the capabilities to do so.
1. Re:Realities by rubycodez · 2013-10-21 03:33 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  which is not a valid argument for any NSA actions against a friendly country.
2. Re:Realities by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 03:36 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  But Mom! All the kids are doing lines and beating up old ladies!
3. Re:Realities by schneidafunk · 2013-10-21 03:40 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  Friendly? France is well known for its industrial espionage.
  
  --
  Some people die at 25 and aren't buried until 75. -Benjamin Franklin
4. Re:Realities by Opportunist · 2013-10-21 03:40 · Score: 1
  
  Who says they don't? They might just also have the capabilities to not get caught with their fingers in the cookie jar.
  
  --
  We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
5. Re:Realities by Coeurderoy · 2013-10-21 03:41 · Score: 2
  
  OTH if they keep doing it the country might stop being friendly, so it is a nice self fulfilling prophecy
6. Re:Realities by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 03:41 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  The French are not complaining about "foreign intelligence" they first and foremost defending their citizens rights. NSA tapped the whole frigging country including underwater sea cables. They didn't spy on specific strategic interests but every damn citizens of france and didn't even bother to work through the french security establishment that already cooperates fully with NSA. NSA managed to piss of the french by fucking them over multiple times at once.
7. Re:Realities by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 03:42 · Score: -1
  
  And its surrendering at the slightest hint of aggression.
8. Re:Realities by ebno-10db · 2013-10-21 03:45 · Score: 3, Funny
  
  NSA tapped the whole frigging country including underwater sea cables.
  As much as I don't like what the NSA has been doing, it's nice to know that that Yankee "can do" spirit isn't dead.
9. Re:Realities by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 03:53 · Score: 0
  
  "Foreign intelligence" speaks for itself. Any country complaining about it is playing a shell game. The reality is, they'd do the same if they had the capabilities to do so.
  Ah, but you forget: This is an accusation being leveled against America. Thus, it's open and welcome to shame the entire country over it!
10. Re:Realities by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 03:53 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  The reality is, they'd do the same if they had the capabilities to do so.
  That line of thought can justify just about any imaginable act of aggression. We can summary execute the citizens of any other country - since we have the capability, we can nuke anyone we feel like - they'd do it first if they could, etc. Complete breakdown of international law and agreements and the right of might.
  Well, guess what US, the world is changing fast and it's just a matter of decades until the mighty will be in Asia. You won't like living in the world you've helped create.
11. Re:Realities by caladine · 2013-10-21 04:00 · Score: 1
  
  Agreed. Besides, the conspiracy theorist in my head thinks a lot of this is faux outrage on the part of the French government. I'm willing to bet that similar to the UK, the NSA is sharing all the information they're getting from the French taps with the DCRI (or other French intelligence service). Sort of reminds me of the Pakistani drone strikes. Outraged in public but definitely working with the US behind closed doors.
12. Re:Realities by gutnor · 2013-10-21 04:35 · Score: 1
  
  And they say the government can do nothing right.
13. Re:Realities by CrimsonAvenger · 2013-10-21 04:50 · Score: 1
  
  Whatever makes you think a country spying on its friends is unusual?
  You usually spend more effort spying on your friends than your enemies, if only because it's relatively easier...
  
  --
  
  "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
14. Re:Realities by cusco · 2013-10-21 04:59 · Score: 1
  
  Keeping in mind that France didn't complain at all about ECHELON this is rather annoying. The NSA could have prevented this by just offering to share the recordings with the French intel agencies.
  
  --
  "Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
15. Re:Realities by cayenne8 · 2013-10-21 05:39 · Score: 1
  
  which is not a valid argument for any NSA actions against a friendly country.
  Err...all countries spy on each other, even the "friendly" ones.
  This isn't something new.
  I'm not frankly worried about the NSA spying on foreign countries...only that they ARE spying on US citizens on US soil, something that is illegal and unconstitutional.
  All countries spy...if you're country does not, then you are putting yourself voluntarily at a disadvantage when dealing with others in all aspects of world interactions.
  
  --
  Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
16. Re:Realities by sociocapitalist · 2013-10-21 06:52 · Score: 1
  
  Friendly? France is well known for its industrial espionage.
  "...the head of a German company was quoted as saying..."
  And how fucking accurate do you assume this statement to be?
  It is idiotic to claim that France is worse than China for industrial espionage.
  
  --
  blindly antisocialist = antisocial
17. Re:Realities by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 06:53 · Score: 0
  
  You mean like the way they surrendered to the British while helping the Americans fight for independence? - which is why the USA is still a British colony?. And why the Statue of Liberty is waving a white flag instead of holding a torch?.
18. Re:Realities by jc42 · 2013-10-21 07:06 · Score: 2
  
  ... not a valid argument for any NSA actions against a friendly country.
  Friendly? Try walking into any French restaurant and speaking with an American (or British or German) accent, and tell us how friendly they are.
  (OK; this is a cheap shot. Everyone already knew about this, right? ;-)
  
  --
  Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
19. Re:Realities by jc42 · 2013-10-21 07:26 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  . Besides, the conspiracy theorist in my head thinks a lot of this is faux outrage on the part of the French government. I'm willing to bet that similar to the UK, the NSA is sharing all the information they're getting from the French taps with the DCRI (or other French intelligence service).
  Such a conspiracy theory does make a lot of sense. Consider that the main PR approach in the US is to say that the intel agencies can't (legally ;-) spy on US citizens; they're only (legally ;-) allowed to spy on foreigners. This is just what they're accused of doing in this case, and it's legal under US law.
  And to the French government, it's really useful. They can act outraged in public, while listening to their copies of the recordings, and be confident that nothing can be done (legally ;-) against it because the NSA is beyond the reach of any French laws or courts.
  Sounds like a win-win situation to me, at least from the viewpoint of the US and French governments. And in both countries, the "people" don't matter, because both governments can satisfy them with their own PR based on this story.
  
  --
  Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
20. Re:Realities by schneidafunk · 2013-10-21 07:26 · Score: 1
  
  It is idiotic to make statements without backing them up with citations. I provided a link, which is based off a wikileaks cable release. Here's another article for you.
  "Mr. Marion, who was appointed to head the French secret service in 1981 by President François Mitterrand, acknowledged that France spied on American companies, including IBM, Texas Instruments and Corning, that were involved in competition with French state-owned enterprises. "
  
  --
  Some people die at 25 and aren't buried until 75. -Benjamin Franklin
21. Re:Realities by sociocapitalist · 2013-10-21 08:33 · Score: 1
  
  It is idiotic to make statements without backing them up with citations. I provided a link, which is based off a wikileaks cable release. Here's another article for you.
  "Mr. Marion, who was appointed to head the French secret service in 1981 by President François Mitterrand, acknowledged that France spied on American companies, including IBM, Texas Instruments and Corning, that were involved in competition with French state-owned enterprises. "
  I am aware that you posted a link - the quote I pasted was from your posted link and I give that company CEO's statement as much validity as anything that any CEO says. None at all because they say whatever they have to say to achieve some business goal - and it can have nothing to do with reality.
  I never said that France doesn't spy. I said that it's stupid to claim that they do more industrial espionage than China.
  
  --
  blindly antisocialist = antisocial
22. Re:Realities by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 09:26 · Score: 0
  
  Like the U.S. is well known for its croissants and baguettes?
23. Re:Realities by echnaton192 · 2013-10-21 13:04 · Score: 1
  
  Finally. That is the whole fucking point.
  American companies are already losing money because people are runnng away from their services, using them less and consider every american company as compromised by the NSA to spy on everybody, even if those people are of no interest to the american government.
24. Re:Realities by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 14:08 · Score: 0
  
  fucking them over multiple times at once.
  For some reason that sounds very French.
25. Re:Realities by Eunuchswear · 2013-10-21 22:02 · Score: 1
  
  I think many people are missing the point.
  People are not pissed because the NSA was spying on France.
  People are pissed because the NSA was spying on the French, i.e. on massive numbers of ordinary citizens -
  
  the "DRTBOX" program intercepted 62.5 million telephone calls in France between 10 December 2012 and 8 January 2013
  http://www.lemonde.fr/technologies/article/2013/10/21/comment-la-nsa-espionne-la-france_3499758_651865.html
  (And, hey, calling it "Dirtbox", WTF guys!)
  
  --
  Watch this Heartland Institute video
26. Re: Realities by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-22 06:20 · Score: 0
  
  How do you guys get from your Government spying on Europeans to an argument about religion. No wonder us Europeans are beginning to distrust your government have you any idea how this reads in the UK. And the rest of Europe. Special Relationship? Pah.
Mais voila by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 03:36 · Score: 0

including some placed by people with no connections to terrorist organizations
Some, as in a few. Out of millions? Are we to understand that during those particular 30 days there was heavy terrorist chatter on French phones, to the tune of some millions of calls? Would this be justification enough for another D day? /sarcasm
1. Re:Mais voila by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 03:45 · Score: 1
  
  there was heavy terrorist chatter on French phones
  No, mostly they captured a lot of smoking on the phone.
Another strike against dragnetting by GodfatherofSoul · 2013-10-21 03:36 · Score: 2

It's impossible to keep an operation that big under wraps. I can't say I have a problem with the US spying on other countries. I do have a major problem with a wasteful, counterproductive grab bag approach that relies on 20ish high school dropouts.

--
I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
1. Re:Another strike against dragnetting by ebno-10db · 2013-10-21 03:46 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  Given how patriotic one of them has been, I'll give three cheers for 20ish high school dropouts.
2. Re:Another strike against dragnetting by TubeSteak · 2013-10-21 05:44 · Score: 1
  
  It's impossible to keep an operation that big under wraps.
  
  They managed it for years now, so I'd say it was entirely possible.
  And with the security changes resulting from Manning and Snowden, it's not likely we're going to see a leak on this scale again.
  
  --
  [Fuck Beta]
  o0t!
3. Re:Another strike against dragnetting by GodfatherofSoul · 2013-10-21 06:32 · Score: 1
  
  Manning and Snowden stopped being heroes to me when they started indiscriminately dumping documents. What value does it do to his cause to let it be known we were spying on the President of Mexico's emails?
  
  --
  I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
4. Re:Another strike against dragnetting by GameboyRMH · 2013-10-21 07:02 · Score: 1
  
  The US is not at war with Mexico, what business did they have doing that? Highly unethical IMO. The value is that it lets the President of Mexico know that his "friends" are spying on his emails. Friends tell friends when other friends are being dicks behind their back.
  Did you see a problem when the NSA started indiscriminately spying on communications?
  
  --
  "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
5. Re:Another strike against dragnetting by GodfatherofSoul · 2013-10-21 07:42 · Score: 1
  
  You don't just spy on enemies. Spying on friends is a good way to know how to push them diplomatically or to know how to reach a bargain with them. Happens ALL the time.
  Again, I've spelled out that the dragnetting is my biggest problem. We're seeing that dragnetting creates such a huge footprint that it's impossible to keep the programs secret.
  
  --
  I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
6. Re:Another strike against dragnetting by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 07:55 · Score: 0
  
  Spying on friends is a good way to know how to push them diplomatically or to know how to reach a bargain with them.
  I hope that someday, you'll come understand that what you wrote is in no way an argument against such behaviour being "highly unethical".
  Also, please consider the possibilty that if you treat friends like this, you might not have friends for long.
7. Re:Another strike against dragnetting by GameboyRMH · 2013-10-21 07:56 · Score: 1
  
  You don't just spy on enemies. Spying on friends is a good way to know how to push them diplomatically or to know how to reach a bargain with them. Happens ALL the time.
  You say that like it's a good thing. What kind of friend is that?
  
  --
  "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
8. Re:Another strike against dragnetting by cold+fjord · 2013-10-21 08:13 · Score: -1, Flamebait
  
  The US is not at war with Mexico, what business did they have doing that?
  
  Maybe you've heard that they have a Narco-Terrorist insurgency in Mexico? They've had more people killed than the US lost in Vietnam ( 60,000+). The violence spills over the border, and the American side of the border isn't safe in many places for miles into the US. The drugs don't spill over, they flow in. So yes, the US might have a reason or two to have an idea about what is going on in Mexico.
  And by the way, did you hear that some of the 9-11 hijackers were from a terrorist cell in Hamburg Germany? Maybe there is a reason for the US to keep an eye on things in Europe as well.
  
  --
  much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
9. Re:Another strike against dragnetting by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 08:25 · Score: 0
  
  The cunt kind, which this guy, and our government are.
10. Re:Another strike against dragnetting by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 09:05 · Score: 0
  
  You're most definitely not the kind of person I'd like to meet. That or you're just trolling. In any case you have a thing for playing the scumbag role.
  You don't become a good person by constantly trying to crush others.
  This is indeed prone to make you rich in the sick world we're living in, but not everyone measures life accomplishments through a huge stack of dollars or by the number of people you hold dominated.
  Also your definition of friendship is biased, you're mistaking friends for people whom you take advantage of or in other words: abusing.
11. Re:Another strike against dragnetting by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 09:19 · Score: 0
  
  I can't say I have a problem with the US spying on other countries.
  As a resident of another country, I do. The U.S. (and any other country for that matter) should not spy on anyone who is not directly suspected of any crime, full stop.
12. Re:Another strike against dragnetting by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 09:25 · Score: 0
  
  While the US are also the cause of the everlasting prohibition on drugs.
  A mature approach of the drugs policy would undermine the activity of drug cartels and put an end to most of the violence you're talking about.
  Hopefully we may have a way to confirm this theory as more and more countries are deciding on quitting the DEA's own drugs policy cartel and voting less primitive laws.
  This is pretty much the same scheme for terrorism, the US feeds anger amongst various populations and use the first terrorist it gets as an excuse to bomb a few non aggressive countries. Using drones, because that wouldn't be unjust or coward enough otherwise. Then shitstorm ensues, and the US start another war, buys lots of weapons, rebuilds said destroyed countries with its own companies our just plainly leaves letting millions of people in chaos without a stable government.
  The US are maintaining and often creating new daemons of its own for the sole purpose of being able to fight them endlessly. That stimulates the US economy and keeps servile citizens unable to think.
13. Re:Another strike against dragnetting by GameboyRMH · 2013-10-21 09:28 · Score: 2
  
  Maybe you've heard that they have a Narco-Terrorist insurgency in Mexico? They've had more people killed than the US lost in Vietnam ( 60,000+). The violence spills over the border, and the American side of the border isn't safe in many places for miles into the US. The drugs don't spill over, they flow in. So yes, the US might have a reason or two to have an idea about what is going on in Mexico.
  And is the Mexican President personally involved? If not then why spy on his email? If you want some info from him then ask. This is what friends do.
  
  And by the way, did you hear that some of the 9-11 hijackers were from a terrorist cell in Hamburg Germany [bbc.co.uk]? Maybe there is a reason for the US to keep an eye on things in Europe as well.
  Most countries have a potential terrorist or two, this doesn't justify spying on everyone. A 9/11 style attack can never happen again due to the change in flight passenger knowledge, it's done and there's no point guarding against the use of commercial aircraft as weapons any further.
  
  --
  "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
14. Re:Another strike against dragnetting by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 09:56 · Score: 0
  
  I'd prefer my taxpayer dollars go to education instead of spying.
15. Re:Another strike against dragnetting by cffrost · 2013-10-21 11:11 · Score: 1
  
  Spying on friends is a good way to know how to push them diplomatically or to know how to reach a bargain with them. Happens ALL the time.
  
  Murdering competitors is a "good" way to push competitors out of your way. It happens all the time.
  Given your moral compass, you might as well have dispensed with the "ofSoul" appended to your nick. (I'm saying you seem to think like a mafioso.)
  
  --
  Thank you, Edward Snowden.
  
  "Arguments from authority are worthless." —Carl Sagan
16. Re:Another strike against dragnetting by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 11:18 · Score: 0
  
  Spying on each other breeds mistrust and resent.
  It is clear that some governments, religions and global corporations are wasting our time and energy and are standing in the way of this world being a better place.
17. Re:Another strike against dragnetting by echnaton192 · 2013-10-21 13:15 · Score: 2
  
  Me too.
  The reaction to those "friends" is simple: You trash them.
  Buy another smartphone, use a more secure cloud without complete control to intellience agencies, stuff like that. It is funny to see that the country with one of the biggest deficit problems in the world is so devoted to piss potential customers off.c
18. Re:Another strike against dragnetting by whistlingtony · 2013-10-21 16:04 · Score: 1
  
  Snowden's been very careful about what he let out, and he gave it to some damn fine journalists who have been careful about what they let out.
  I would say the value to his cause, of letting poeple know the NSA is spying on them, is very well served by revealing that the NSA is.... spying on poeple.
19. Re:Another strike against dragnetting by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-28 02:23 · Score: 0
  
  ....... "I can't say I have a problem with the US spying on other countries" ........
  And that's is the source of the problem. There is no way you're going to reign them in once they've had a taste of such power.
...including some placed by people... by Opportunist · 2013-10-21 03:38 · Score: 5, Insightful

with no terrorist connections?
SOME?
When you intercept millions of phone calls, I'd rather expect that the majority of them are not placed by terrorists, else terrorists have the phone habits of the average western teenager.

--
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
1. Re:...including some placed by people... by Coeurderoy · 2013-10-21 03:41 · Score: 4, Funny
  
  All teenagers are terrorist, just ask the parents of the other teenager :-)
2. Re:...including some placed by people... by Thanshin · 2013-10-21 03:43 · Score: 0
  
  "Some" covers from "one" to "all".
3. Re:...including some placed by people... by Mordok-DestroyerOfWo · 2013-10-21 03:55 · Score: 1
  
  You have to remember, all people are terrorists until proven otherwise. The NSA is doing its best to wade through the phone calls but they need more funding. So fund the NSA, you don't want the terrorists to win...do you?
  
  --
  "Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right" - Salvor Hardin
4. Re:...including some placed by people... by zAPPzAPP · 2013-10-21 04:06 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  You only have to adjust your definition of 'terrorist comnnections'.
  For the NSA, an Nth degree connection is most likely enough.
  As in: your number has in the past called some number, that was also called by a number which had been in contact with a number which is suspected to have once been used by someone who's name is on one of their lists.
  This kind of 'meta-information' is exactly what they are fishing for after all.
  I am more interested in how they got 'some' with no terrorist connections. Maybe only brand new phone numbers on their first use?
5. Re:...including some placed by people... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 04:31 · Score: 0
  
  This reminds me of a little info-graphic in the onion once. It simply read:
  Kevin Bacon linked to Al Qaeda
  What I thought funny at the time is more than a little disturbing when you think about it now.
6. Re:...including some placed by people... by ohieaux · 2013-10-21 04:35 · Score: 2
  
  Six Degrees of NSA - what's you number?
  
  --
  Where all think alike, no one thinks very much.
7. Re:...including some placed by people... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 05:38 · Score: 0
  
  France have some 60 million inhabitants.
  If the numbers are similar to those of the US that includes 1.5 million with bipolar disorder, 0.6 million schizophrenics and about 0.6 million with "antisocial personality disorder".
  Does it seem like a good idea to piss people off at a large scale? You usually get away when you behave like a dick against a handful of people. When you do it against a larger population there will always be that unstable person that thinks that blowing up a train or detonating a bomb in a supermarket is a good idea.
  It seems to me like NSA only is out to get themselves some job security.
8. Re:...including some placed by people... by Opportunist · 2013-10-21 06:26 · Score: 1
  
  I can only choose between the NSA and the terrorists winning?
  *shrug* I don't care, shooting or hanging... not that much of a difference, is it?
  
  --
  We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
9. Re:...including some placed by people... by Opportunist · 2013-10-21 06:27 · Score: 1
  
  All it takes is that the same telemarketer calls you and Boomsday-Ali...
  
  --
  We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
10. Re:...including some placed by people... by Opportunist · 2013-10-21 06:29 · Score: 1
  
  Well, you have to admit the NSA can't simply bomb some civilians to breed terrorists, we can't do at home what we do in Iraq.
  
  --
  We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
11. Re:...including some placed by people... by HornWumpus · 2013-10-21 06:36 · Score: 2
  
  The population of Paris is 2.2 million. So that's at least 2.2 million with 'antisocial personality disorder'.
  
  --
  John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
12. Re:...including some placed by people... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 09:53 · Score: 0
  
  At least that would be well deserved in case it affected only NSA's and other government agencies but not civilians.
  "He who sprinkles small pieces a poop should expect a huge shitstorm in return."
  Look what the US have been doing for the past decades in middle east and the kind of anger that always follows.
  At least contrary to third world goat fuckers they're not yet trying to assassinate us Europeans to steal our oil. It seems more appropriate for now to only use technological, not too obvious, violence to vacuum and sabotage our economy. But this is a declaration of war nevertheless.
  For now the bipolar/schizophrenics/anti-socials in this world are composed of a small group of sick perverted destructive and globally self entitled countries that includes: USA, Israel and in lesser importance: the UK.
  Those people are being bullies, annoying the whole fucking planet countries after countries, people after people, day after day. Not a month happens without one of those jackasses pulling out a new stunt. Most of the time those stunts involve ending thousands of innocent lives in a randomly selected place.
  They will soon submit themselves and play nice or the actual free world that includes everyone but them will have to take care of the matter once and for all.
  This is why we can't have nice things.
Dear Frogland by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 03:38 · Score: -1, Troll

Boo freekin hoo. This is what the NSA is supposed to do.
They are NOT supposed to do it inside the U.S. to U.S. citizens.
1. Re:Dear Frogland by CanHasDIY · 2013-10-21 03:57 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Boo freekin hoo. This is what the NSA is supposed to do.
  Um, no. They are supposed to focus on the activities of groups who are directly threatening American interests.
  They are not supposed to waste billions of dollars worth of resources building haystacks through which to search for needles.
  Face it, if the US governments interest was truly limited to fighting actual terrorism, the whole dragnet approach would be considered nothing but an expensive waste of time.
  
  --
  An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
2. Re:Dear Frogland by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 04:17 · Score: 0
  
  And if the French did the same to the US you would feel the same way right?
  I mean the French spy agency is suppose to spy after all.
3. Re:Dear Frogland by Znork · 2013-10-21 04:24 · Score: 1
  
  Of course, as the parties providing oversight and budget are getting kickbacks it's instead considered a most lucrative waste of time.
4. Re:Dear Frogland by multimediavt · 2013-10-21 05:31 · Score: 1
  
  Boo freekin hoo. This is what the NSA is supposed to do.
  Um, no. They are supposed to focus on the activities of groups who are directly threatening American interests.
  Ummm, no, please read. They are supposed to be building and looking through haystacks. That *IS* their job by mandate. Their mandate did not extend to U.S. soil until the (Un-)Patriot Act. That's when everyone's panties got in a bunch. The NSA is supposed to support intelligence and counterintelligence information gathering to support national and departmental interests. That includes spying on our allies. Always has. And they have always spied on us too, so welcome to the real world!
5. Re:Dear Frogland by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · 2013-10-21 05:35 · Score: 1
  
  Um, no. They are supposed to focus on the activities of groups who are directly threatening American interests.
  What you thought the French people were working to forward US interests in the francosphere? There was the famous you are either with us or against us speech as well. What I don't get is why hasn't the bombing started yet since the French are obviously planning to subvert our authority.
  
  All kidding aside it seems like they are basically wasting massive amounts of resources creating the impression that they are doing something. Look at all of the stuff we are looking at type of thing. I think it is time to poison the well and just create some throwaway e-mail accounts and haven them e-mail around multi meg attachments that are dumps from /dev/random with dates a couple years out or latitude / longitude coordinates for subject headers.
  
  --
  Time to offend someone
6. Re:Dear Frogland by CanHasDIY · 2013-10-21 06:10 · Score: 1
  
  Um, no. They are supposed to focus on the activities of groups who are directly threatening American interests.
  What you thought the French people were working to forward US interests in the francosphere? There was the famous you are either with us or against us speech as well. What I don't get is why hasn't the bombing started yet since the French are obviously planning to subvert our authority.
  Just seems like a colossal waste to spent time and resources spying on a group of people we all know will wave the white flag the second shit comes to blows.
  Ha ha, just yankin' yer chains, surrender monkeys*!
  
  All kidding aside it seems like they are basically wasting massive amounts of resources creating the impression that they are doing something. Look at all of the stuff we are looking at type of thing.
  Huh, sounds like Congress - lots of action that never really accomplishes anything useful, just a reason for them to tell their constituents, "we're doing something."
  
  I think it is time to poison the well and just create some throwaway e-mail accounts and haven them e-mail around multi meg attachments that are dumps from /dev/random with dates a couple years out or latitude / longitude coordinates for subject headers.
  Have seen that suggested repeatedly, but to date have yet to see anything useful come from the suggestion: I dunno, a bit of software or script that I can run in the background SETI@home style would probably garner a fair amount of popularity, since it would be essentially fire-and-forget. People don't mind willfully running stuff they agree with if it takes little effort on their part
  * My favorite racial slur ever.
  Of all time.
  
  --
  An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
7. Re:Dear Frogland by HornWumpus · 2013-10-21 06:38 · Score: 1
  
  They do and we do.
  
  --
  John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
8. Re:Dear Frogland by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 14:44 · Score: 0
  
  Just wait until the French start abducting Americans in third countries and torturing them just in case they know something. Or send in a few drone strikes on the USA based on flimsy evidence, its only a little collateral damage. Anyway its what those agencies do. Its why they exist. Stop complaining, you guys would do it too if you could.
  Cant wait until the shoe is on the other foot.
Scarrrring !!!! by Coeurderoy · 2013-10-21 03:39 · Score: 2

Millions of conversations & "some" are not related to terrorists !
Millions is at least 2 millions or 66 666/day...
"Some" is at most "half" so there where apparently 33 333 conversations related to terrorist every day ... shudder ....
So assuming that all these bad guys where plotting like crazy, every day, and always the same, that still means that with 50 conversations per day the NSA should have found out at least 600 "new" terrorist ...
nb: there are about 60 000 people in jail in France, so at the very least 1% is something like "large" ....
So Where are they ??? are they hiding under my table ... or in some bush on my way home .... shudder shudder ....
Or should it read, some conversations where related to terrorism ...
In practice, when the official communication says: we looked at all these people and some where innocent... I find it much more scary than
we unfortunately looked at a lot of innocent people but we did find "some" very bad people...
The fact that the communication days "some where innocent" really gives the impression that they are again trying to bamboozle us ...
1. Re:Scarrrring !!!! by Immerman · 2013-10-21 04:23 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  What makes you assume that "some" is "at most half"? Any logician will tell you that "some" only technically means "at least one". The statement "some ravens are black" is absolutely true - I am stating only that that at least one raven is black, and that I am not claiming that non-black ravens don't exist. But by the same logic I can make the equally true statement that "some apples are purple" - I have seen a purple apple, therefore the statement is true.
  As such the claim that "some calls are not related to terrorists" is essentially information-free. It means only that at least one call was not related - which is a given granted that surveillance at this scale can not be 100% accurately targeted. It significantly does not make any claim whatsoever that even one of those monitored calls actually was terrorist-related.
  
  --
  --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
2. Re:Scarrrring !!!! by Coeurderoy · 2013-10-21 05:15 · Score: 2
  
  You are technicaly right, but if you use logic in order to tell things that are true but do sound very different from what they actually are you are doing weaseling with weasel word.
  As in "our prices are the lowest we ever did* (* on selected products)" sounds cheap but just means that you are offloading some unsaleable junk..
  Or "Blue Sky initiative" sounds ecological, it just means that you called some activity "blue sky initiative"
  Some ... could mean "all of them" but then it would be natural and honest to say "all of them"
  Some ... could mean "the majority" but then you would be invited to use "the majority"
  Actually the only legitimate reason to use "Some" is that there are no other adequate word, so it should not be "one" or "very few" nor "a significant number" or the majority or all...
  Try "tragically some civilian died, but it was unavoidable due to the immediate danger M. EvilGuy posed to humanity" ...
  You might want to avoid having somebody point out that you killed them all, and if you have only 1 out of 10 000 "collateral dammage" you would probably say it too..
  Or to take your examples if you tell you child : Some ravens are black ... the natural answer will be ? what color are the non black ravens ... ? so unless you want to confuse him or her you will probably tell "ravens are almost always black although there are some rare exceptions" : http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/06_01/ravenNNP_468x311.jpg
3. Re:Scarrrring !!!! by multimediavt · 2013-10-21 05:37 · Score: 1
  
  You quite possibly are the dumbest person alive. Your reasoning is unsound and your math is even worse. Are you a member of Fox News because you're really good at the false equivalency game?
4. Re:Scarrrring !!!! by Immerman · 2013-10-21 06:03 · Score: 1
  
  >You are technicaly right, but if you use logic in order to tell things that are true but do sound very different from what they actually are you are doing weaseling with weasel word.
  Oh most assuredly. And weasel words are the stock of trade in politicians, government agencies, "journalists", CEOs, and most other powerful people and organizations that try to shape public opinion without being caught in an outright lie. Given that a wonderfully weaselly word like "some" was used by such people, why on Earth would you assume that it was used in a manner at all consistent with the obvious definition?
  
  --
  --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
5. Re:Scarrrring !!!! by Coeurderoy · 2013-10-21 06:16 · Score: 1
  
  Of course it is possible, maybe as I read this everybody who is dumber than I am just died by intervention...
  You claim that my math is bad, maybe, but millions of call over 30 days do make a lot of calls per day...
  Now you might have gathered from the tone of the first posting that the exact evaluation was not supposed to be taken too seriously
  nevertheless 2 000 000 / 30 => 66 666 average number of conversations per day, this means quite a lot of people, and at least some of them should be really suspect of something to justify the program...
  Unless I missed the point when the NSA published the info "after wasting one month listening to millions of boring conversations from unwashed french people we decided that there is really nothing of interest to listen too, and we left ..."
  So just in case you are not just a random troll, you might want to : a) relax this is ./ no need for name calling, b) think about what you understand when somebody tells you that there where "some people".
  And if I would be working for Fox News I would avoid trying to get peoples attention about the fine usage of weasel speak ....
  But since I'm the dumbest person alive, I'll now go get a life and some beer, and will try to hide my low IQ from the surviving smar women...
6. Re:Scarrrring !!!! by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 06:31 · Score: 0
  
  What makes you assume that "some" is "at most half"? Any logician will tell you that "some" only technically means "at least one". The statement "some ravens are black" is absolutely true - I am stating only that that at least one raven is black, and that I am not claiming that non-black ravens don't exist.
  Call me pedantic, but while the statement "some ravens are black" is logically acceptable, it would not pass any Plain English test. I would argue that (in Plain English- not in philosophy) "some" must be more than "none" and less than "all". "Some ravens are black" is only true if the other half of the statement is "and the rest are also black". Seeing as "Some ravens are black and the rest are black" is not a sensible sentence, the first half shouldn't be allowed to stand alone.
  That's not to diminish your point, though. But then your point didn't really diminish his point. So I guess we're all just whistling into the breeze tonight.
  Posting AC for mod reasons.
  ~Patch86
7. Re:Scarrrring !!!! by Coeurderoy · 2013-10-21 06:34 · Score: 1
  
  Given that a wonderfully weaselly word like "some" was used by such people, why on Earth would you assume that it was used in a manner at all consistent with the obvious definition?
  Because taking what people say at face value is a way to poke fun at them, in this particular case it is also a way to poke fun at people "exposing" the NSA and using the same weasel word they use....
  In reality it is very hard to be in IT in some relevant way and not be aware that all governments do spy on about everybody they can...
  It is also "interesting" to remark that a very large amount of movies and tv series rely on the device of the "good cop/spy/military guy" who "goes against the stupid puny little laws" to "take care of the really bad guy"... so our "minds" are prepared for this ...
  A big part of the issue is that this spying is also fueling a commercial war between developped countries, and the cost of this war is covered by citizens all over the world.
  So I'm not "surprised" at all, not even that "shocked" (too late for this), but I do hope that a little bit more transparency and oversight will come out of it, that people will protect a little bit better their secrets, even and especially the fact that they actually do not have any secret. (so that thouse who do have some legitimate reason to be discreet to not stick out like a sore thumb)...
  And meanwhile I'll go on poking fun at weasels, particularly now that I know that everybody (left) is smarter than I am, and should understand my jokes ...
8. Re:Scarrrring !!!! by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 06:41 · Score: 0
  
  Or should it read, some conversations where related to terrorism ...
  The scary part is that they will then proceed to "thwart" "some" terrorist plots by kidnapping/killing a few people who obviously will not put up a plausible defense afterwards.
9. Re:Scarrrring !!!! by seyyah · 2013-10-21 07:28 · Score: 1
  
  "Some" is at most "half" so there where apparently 33 333 conversations related to terrorist every day ... shudder ....
  If "some = at most half" then there would be less than or equal to 33,333 conversations related to terrorism every day.
  You've mixed up "at most" and "at least".
10. Re:Scarrrring !!!! by Coeurderoy · 2013-10-21 07:56 · Score: 1
  
  some where not, so if some is half the "one who where" where more than half ergo more than 33K
  but I did make my sentence "weak" since I wrote 33K where it should have been 33K "at least" where
  (I didn't say at most ...)
  But isn't that nitpicking around the fact that the "Fine article" wrote that out of untold millions "some where not"
  which is obviously wishy washy ....
  The "investigation" should explain why such a large net was necessary to get, what exactly ?
11. Re:Scarrrring !!!! by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 11:24 · Score: 0
  
  What makes you assume that "some" is "at most half"? Any logician will tell you that "some" only technically means "at least one". The statement "some ravens are black" is absolutely true - I am stating only that that at least one raven is black, and that I am not claiming that non-black ravens don't exist. But by the same logic I can make the equally true statement that "some apples are purple" - I have seen a purple apple, therefore the statement is true.
  This is an unfair criticism. "Any logician" will also tell you that there are many cases where the subtleties of meaning of words and sentences in natural language are not captured by a strict logical translation. For example witness the problems with material implication, where it is well-known to not adequately capture the different types of conditional statements in English. In the same way forcing the English word "some" to always be interpreted as the logical "there exists" operator throws away much of the meaning of the original text. In some cases this is a reasonable trade-off, for example being able to show that someone's argument is contradictory or contains a logical fallacy. However, in other other cases, such as this one, it is not.
  There are many English words to indicate ranges of quantities: such as "a few", "some", "many", "most". For the sake of argument and in order to perform calculations, the grandparent post interpreted "some" as "at most half". Given the context of the original post and alternative words that could have been used to indicate quantities, this seems like a perfectly reasonable interpretation.
12. Re:Scarrrring !!!! by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 13:58 · Score: 0
  
  Instead of logic, why not try English.
  any both few some many several all most more .
  To not use a more useful qualifier, your just trying to hide something.
Foreign Intelligence by cold+fjord · 2013-10-21 03:39 · Score: -1, Troll

Yet another revelation from Snowden that reveals Top Secret American foreign intelligence activities that have no relation to the rights of Americans.
When will people come to understand that his goal was not simply protecting the rights of Americans? Isn't it clear from who his Russian spokesman was?
Maybe they just wanted to know how many French cars would burn this year, set ablaze by.....guess who?

More than 40,000 vehicles are burned each year in France...

--
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
1. Re:Foreign Intelligence by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 03:49 · Score: 0
  
  Yes, Snowden and Greenwald have a clear agenda. And it is the libertarian view that government is bad and should be defunded.
2. Re:Foreign Intelligence by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 03:53 · Score: 0
  
  Yet another revelation from Snowden that reveals Top Secret American foreign intelligence activities that have no relation to the rights of Americans.
  Yet more irrelevant nonsense and FUD from bootlicking cold fjord. Why do you artificially limit wha he can disclose to only those things that affect Americans? Actions are wrong based on the deed not at who they are directed at.
3. Re:Foreign Intelligence by ebno-10db · 2013-10-21 03:55 · Score: 1
  
  Yet another revelation from Snowden that reveals Top Secret American foreign intelligence activities that have no relation to the rights of Americans.
  Given the underwhelming response by those who think the Constitution is just a piece of paper, a little foreign heat could only help.
  
  When will people come to understand that his goal was not simply protecting the rights of Americans? Isn't it clear from who his Russian spokesman was?
  Given the vicious response of his native country's government to his whistle blowing on 4th Amendment violations, he'd be a fool not to make allies of convenience. Worked for us in WWII.
  
  Maybe they just wanted to know how many French cars would burn this year [nytimes.com], set ablaze by.....guess who?
  According to the article you linked to, the "guess who" is the French.
4. Re:Foreign Intelligence by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 03:59 · Score: 0
  
  set ablaze by.....guess who?
  Insurance fraudsters? You sir, are a trollers troll - apparently upset at the news Snowden never took any files to Russia so you have stooped to insinuating that the FSB commenting on the case way back when he was still in the airport means they speak for him. This is despite the fact that Snowden gave a freakin press conference from the airport at this same time, and that Wikileaks has released several statements and letters from Snowden since.
  What a sad life it must be to live as a propagandist for an increasingly fascist state, may the mods slap your tripe down.
5. Re:Foreign Intelligence by benjfowler · 2013-10-21 04:04 · Score: -1, Troll
  
  You are a sad individual indeed, if you have nothing better to do and stalk pro-Western posters on Slashdot.
6. Re:Foreign Intelligence by Arker · 2013-10-21 04:11 · Score: 1
  
  You are not making any sense here.
  Illegal actions taken by our government against foreigners, causing damage to our countries reputation, its relations, and indeed sparking violent blowback as well, is one of the major dangers that Americans face in todays world. Ignoring or avoiding those problems is pointless.
  
  --
  =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
  Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
7. Re:Foreign Intelligence by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 04:12 · Score: 0
  
  pro-Western? Operator on the Cold Fjord/benjfowler accounts are pro fascist corporate police state, and that is just going by a pages of your past propagandist drivel. You are a sad individual indeed.
8. Re:Foreign Intelligence by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 04:16 · Score: 0
  
  I never realized CF/BJF could be the same person but it makes sense now. However, isn't it just as likely that they are not the same person but just cut from the same piece of shit?
9. Re:Foreign Intelligence by erikkemperman · 2013-10-21 04:23 · Score: 1
  
  It seems to me you are not so much pro-Western as you are anti-everything else. Your first post in this thread is entirely typical, judging from your post history. Xenophobe is the word that comes to my mind. You are welcome to your opinion but you might reconsider just how narrowminded it makes you seem.
  
  --
  Gosh, thanks. That must be why the other ships call me Meatfucker -- GCU Grey Area (Eccentric)
10. Re:Foreign Intelligence by ebno-10db · 2013-10-21 04:24 · Score: 1
  
  Yes, Snowden and Greenwald have a clear agenda. And it is the libertarian view that government is bad and should be defunded.
  Please cite where either of them has said that, as opposed to abiding by the Constitution. If you think that libertarians are the only ones who respect that document, you couldn't be more wrong. If you think that defunding the government would help, I'll remind you that the NSA is but a tiny part of the federal budget. Eliminate the federal income tax and they'd still have plenty of money for it.
11. Re:Foreign Intelligence by cold+fjord · 2013-10-21 04:25 · Score: -1, Troll
  
  You're making even less sense.
  It almost certainly isn't a violation of US law for US intelligence agencies to conduct intelligence operations in foreign countries. It is certain that the US government knew, and highly likely that the French government knew. The "blowback," as you refer to it, only exists because Snowden stole Top Secret documents had gave them to a Leftist paper and journalist predisposed against the US for publishing. I think the reaction of the French government is likely along this line.
  Do you have any speculation as to when we can expect documents on Chinese, Russian, or Iranian intelligence to be published? I expect it to happen when hell freezes over. For some reason the "whistleblowers" are quite selective in the damage they are doing.
  
  --
  much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
12. Re:Foreign Intelligence by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 04:50 · Score: 0
  
  Apparently you are so clever that you think they might be the same person, typing with both hands to post at the same time? What?
  And yet despite how you describe them, you and other people keep coming back for a nice, big, helping! Enjoy! (Try it with spicy mayo!)
13. Re:Foreign Intelligence by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 05:34 · Score: 0
  
  It's all about the rights of the corporations and their need for edge both in negotiations and in keeping the american people subservient and buying.
  The companies think anything is ethical as long as the money changed hands "legally" or "discretely".
14. Re:Foreign Intelligence by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 06:11 · Score: 0
  
  Totalitarian surveillance states are the anti-thesis of Western ideals, bootlicker.
15. Re:Foreign Intelligence by Arker · 2013-10-21 06:32 · Score: 1
  
  Your key lever for wiggle room is 'of US law' and the key pivot is 'in foreign countries.'
  US law includes any international accord properly ratified by the Senate. And foreign countries includes many with whom we have friendly relations and various formal ties. And there are many cases where it is indeed forbidden by US and/or binding international law to do a lot of the things they have been doing. For instance bugging the phone of an accredited embassy or ambassador. Whether inside or outside of the US, that violates binding law.
  Of course we all know that it was common practice in the cold war for cold combatants to bug each other anyway, and just try very hard not to get caught. All that plausible deniability stuff has worn thin over the years, these days they dont seem to care whether or not it's plausible anymore. But even back then no one was going around bugging tens of thousands of phones on either side. That scale of operation they had to have understood was way too big to stay secret for long.
  The nations we are spying on now are supposedly friends, in several cases close allies.
  
  --
  =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
  Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
16. Re:Foreign Intelligence by benjfowler · 2013-10-21 06:42 · Score: 1
  
  Off your meds??
17. Re:Foreign Intelligence by echnaton192 · 2013-10-21 13:44 · Score: 1
  
  Amen to that. I am German and most of the time pro-western.
  But having the NSA weaken my encryption, storing and analyzing my whole online-coomunication and doing that to every other european country makes me think otherwise. What good is an allie that takes away all the freedoms it once gave us and helps to turn our countries in a police state?
  Yes, our governments collaborate with yours to accomplish the task of a full scale police state. But the pressure to those extreme measures comes from the US and the UK. And to bring that to my attention and to let me rethink my onlineactivity, my buying choices and my picture of america, Mr. Snowden is my hero.
  Western society once stood for democracy, civil rights and privacy. The fact that all of these values are at stake are important news. Both the europeans and the american people need to cut the surveillance state back. To be informed about the scale of the scheme was an important step that serves to restore western values America and Europe once stood for.
  Mr. Snowden was not a traitor. People trying to tirn europinto eurasia and america and the UK into oceania - those are traitors. Traitors to the constitution of every. country. involved.
18. Re:Foreign Intelligence by echnaton192 · 2013-10-21 13:47 · Score: 1
  
  Ah. So fascist police state are the new western moral? Pray tell me more.
19. Re:Foreign Intelligence by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 17:36 · Score: 0
  
  "they"... "them". Not you, right? Right.
20. Re:Foreign Intelligence by Eunuchswear · 2013-10-21 22:09 · Score: 1
  
  Maybe they just wanted to know how many French cars would burn this year, set ablaze by.....guess who?
  If they wanted to know how many cars would be burned they could ask the French ministry of the Interior.
  If they wanted to know who burns them they definitely shouldn't ask a racist arsehole like you.
  
  --
  Watch this Heartland Institute video
21. Re:Foreign Intelligence by Eunuchswear · 2013-10-21 22:27 · Score: 1
  
  Hahahah..
  So It's the nasty French muslims who are buring between 42000 and 60000 cars a year.
  So who burns between 40000 and 70000 cars a year in the UK?
  See page 50:
  http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20120919132719/http://www.communities.gov.uk/pub/894/FireStatisticsUnitedKingdom2003PDF1724Kb_id1124894.pdf
  
  --
  Watch this Heartland Institute video
22. Re:Foreign Intelligence by Eunuchswear · 2013-10-21 22:28 · Score: 1
  
  France isn't part of the "West" now?
  
  --
  Watch this Heartland Institute video
23. Re:Foreign Intelligence by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-23 06:51 · Score: 0
  
  Everything that is East from the Big Apple is not part of the West.
Who. Fucking. Cares. by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 03:39 · Score: -1

Honestly. I'm totally cool with the US spying on the rest of the world. Why are people shocked, this is their job. Stop spying on *us* and I'll be happy. Spy on the frogs as much as you want, what are they gonna talk about, 30 hour work weeks including 3 hour lunches?
1. Re:Who. Fucking. Cares. by Khashishi · 2013-10-21 03:42 · Score: 1
  
  Perhaps people who live in France care? Not everyone is as self-centered as thou.
2. Re:Who. Fucking. Cares. by Desler · 2013-10-21 03:54 · Score: 1
  
  So you have no problems with China and Russia tapping your phones and stealing data from your computers?
3. Re:Who. Fucking. Cares. by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 03:56 · Score: 0
  
  I'm not as much angry at this specific revelation as I am bewildered. What is going on in France that is relevant to us and our national security? Is it worth the expenditure? That's really what I want to know.
4. Re:Who. Fucking. Cares. by ledow · 2013-10-21 03:57 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  It's their job to a) not blanket-grab millions of phone users of data in a random bug hunt but to apply "intelligence" and b) not to get caught doing so. They are spies. This is just terribly amateur. If you don't see that, then you're really missing the biggest thing - that's the problem more than ANYTHING else. So fucking amateur that it makes you look like a bunch of incompetents.
  However, on a similar note, if you found out that the French authorities had a complete copy of your phone records which got publicly leaked (WikiLeaks-style, say), would you not be pissed? It could easily destroy your career, your life, your relationships, etc. (think: This might include the phone numbers of sex chat lines, and you might be a politician / teacher - nothing ILLEGAL in doing that, but would you want that being public knowledge after illegal collection of that data by a foreign entity not being held subject to the laws of YOUR country?).
  Now think that that might include, say, phone calls made by the US ambassador to France while he was in the US. Now we're into REALLY serious shit that you can't even get in a court of law in the country.
  What's more shocking is NOT that this data exists, or has been abused for purposes far beyond their remit, nor that they are that incompetent that it gets found out so easily (but that's pretty damning), but that - in order to "protect" the US, they have now incurred the wrath of quite a number of other countries allied to them and - should it come out into the public media that certain things were captured "accidentally" into that data - could well be the trigger to an international incident (read: War).
  What if you found that a US ally like, say, the UK had complete records of every US citizen that the US did not give them (because a law prevents the US from doing so, and they thought it was just a blind hunt without purpose, and couldn't see why the UK would need that so they blocked it) but they stole in other ways and then managed to publish/leak to a newspaper in the UK?
  And what if that info contained things like the phone records of major political figures? Or the phone calls made from Guantanamo Bay? Or what numbers were dialled in the Washington DC area when the UK queried why it join in fighting in the Middle East (or whatever?). It's not WHAT specifically was collected - it was why it was collected and what COULD be inside that that could easily trigger an international incident. And it has. And will continue to do so while things like this come out.
  Fact is, there's being a spy - and that means NOT GETTING CAUGHT - and there's just going on a blind hunt through data "because you can" against the laws of a country you are allied to (who would have given you what you wanted if you'd asked).
  Just how much co-operation do you think you will see next time you're trying to track a terrorist cell through France? It's counter-productive, and BAD SPYING. TERRIBLE SPYING. CRAP SPYING. And it's pissing off your allies.
5. Re:Who. Fucking. Cares. by benjfowler · 2013-10-21 04:07 · Score: -1
  
  It's not so much they got caught, but some egotistical libertarian fuckwit leaked it to the press.
6. Re:Who. Fucking. Cares. by stewsters · 2013-10-21 04:24 · Score: 1
  
  They probably do. The addition of the NSA stealing their personal and business data doesn't make the Chinese and Russians leave them alone, it just makes it worse. If by allowing the NSA to steal they could force the Chinese and Russians to stop, they probably would.
7. Re:Who. Fucking. Cares. by CrimsonAvenger · 2013-10-21 05:07 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  It's their job to a) not blanket-grab millions of phone users of data in a random bug hunt but to apply "intelligence" and b) not to get caught doing so.
  Actually, NSA's mandate is Signals Intelligence. Which pretty much means grabbing everything they can, then sorting it for utility.
  Also, "intelligence" in the context of an intelligence agency (NSA, GCHQ, etc) has NOTHING to do with common usage of the word - it means the information they are gathering, or trying to.
  
  However, on a similar note, if you found out that the French authorities had a complete copy of your phone records which got publicly leaked (WikiLeaks-style, say), would you not be pissed?
  Surely would. However, absent me being a French citizen, it would never occur to me to scream "The French did something illegal!!!!", since FOREIGN intelligence gathering isn't illegal for any country.
  Unless, of course, the actual intelligence gatherers are caught in the act of foreign soil. No, finding out they did it a year or two after the fact, with no names of the people doing the actual work, doesn't leave you much room for even a show trial, though "Viewing with Alarm" might be something you'd do to pacify your population when it is revealed that you can't protect your own people from foreign spying.
  Which last seems to be what the French are trying for.
  
  Just how much co-operation do you think you will see next time you're trying to track a terrorist cell through France?
  I would never expect ANY cooperation from the French in regards to terrorism. The only interest they have is that it not be done against French citizens or businesses. They don't give a rat's ass about any other terrorism....
  
  --
  
  "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
8. Re:Who. Fucking. Cares. by multimediavt · 2013-10-21 05:47 · Score: 1
  
  a.) their job is to collect foreign intelligence ("information" for those ignorant of the correct definition to use for the word)
  b.) they didn't get caught they got exposed by Snowden
  c.) Other countries (France and England included) spy on the U.S. all the time...since, well, as long as the U.S. has existed. Just because their an ally doesn't mean we don't gather intelligence on them clandestinely. It's part of the way the world works. It's the spying internally that is bad, bad, bad, bad, bad! That's what Snowden was trying to point out and (rightfully) get stopped. He unfortunately caused a lot of collateral damage in the process. Trust me, it's going to take more than a "hey-you're-spying-on-us" incident to sour collaboration against terrorism. We might lose some trade deals or something like that, but France and other allies don't want their citizens injured in an attack either and will cooperate to thwart a plot. To not act on U.S. intelligence and have French citizens killed would be much worse for those in charge than some spying.
9. Re:Who. Fucking. Cares. by Desler · 2013-10-21 06:15 · Score: 1
  
  But they are "just doing their job", too, so there should be zero complaints on the part of the governmental shills. Though it's delightfully amusing to hear this excuse used when the US specifically decried this as not a defense during the Nuremberg Trials.
10. Re:Who. Fucking. Cares. by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 06:44 · Score: 0
  
  However, absent me being a French citizen, it would never occur to me to scream "The French did something illegal!!!!", since FOREIGN intelligence gathering isn't illegal for any country.
  Spying on French citizens is illegal in France, which means some Americans have broken French law.
  Which is where the whole thing gets a bit interesting. If a Cold War US agency got caught illegally spying in the USSR, then it wouldn't matter; after all, not many Americans travel legitimately to the USSR, and there were no extradition treaties- they were the enemy. But it's different when it's an ally. Many European countries have extradition treaties with the US (not sure about France, mind)- what if one of these US allies requests extradition of a US spy? And the US then needs to say "no" (which of course they would), despite it being in contravention of an international treaty? And then the ally puts in an arrest warrant, so that the US spy can't ever visit the allied country ever again, or for that matter any country which has extradition treaties with said ally?
  I'm sure the normal rules all get put aside where espionage is concerned, but it's not as legally clear cut as "they're foreign so it's OK"...
  AC for modding.
  ~Patch86
11. Re:Who. Fucking. Cares. by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 06:50 · Score: 0
  
  Fact is, there's being a spy - and that means NOT GETTING CAUGHT - and there's just going on a blind hunt through data "because you can" against the laws of a country you are allied to (who would have given you what you wanted if you'd asked).
  You don't need to go looking for allied countries' laws. The NSA is crapping left and right on U.S. law as well, probably more so than on that of any ally. The difference is just that U.S. congress is filled with clowns, and U.S. citizens are apathetic. So one mostly needs to worry about the allies' reactions.
12. Re:Who. Fucking. Cares. by HornWumpus · 2013-10-21 09:14 · Score: 1
  
  People in France that care are no less self centered.
  People in other countries that care we're bugging the frogs can make the claim.
  
  --
  John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
13. Re:Who. Fucking. Cares. by tomtomtom · 2013-10-21 11:13 · Score: 1
  
  Even if it were actually the NSA's job (which you seem to be saying it might be, provided simply that they don't get caught), you're answering the wrong question. Here's a close analogy - in countries that have armed forces, the military's most basic job is to fight and kill other people (whether to advance an invasion of other countries, repel an invasion by another country, or for some other purpose). Does that mean that we have no right to be surprised or outraged if politicians or military commanders tell their troops to kill everyone in a certain category "just in case" they might be troublemakers (even if they made it legal by changing/secretly reinterpreting the law/constitution/regulations)? Of course not. Does it make any difference if "the enemy" is doing the same? No. Neither does it make any difference if they do it in secret and never get found out. The law (of any country or even international law) doesn't even enter into the question. It's simply a moral (and ethical) imperative.
  Just because you can do something, does not mean you should do something, and it is especially not a valid excuse when you get caught later. Likewise, just because someone else is doing something, or other people have "always" done something, or someone in authority has told you to do something, doesn't mean you should. I mean, come on, these are basic morals and ethics that small children the world over are taught by their parents.
  If something similar had happened in any other agency of government, it would be a scandal and people would be fired (although sadly often not the actual people responsible). In fact, that seems to happen with reassuring regularity, even if the scandal is far less wide-reaching than this one. What is puzzling me is why the normal rules of politics seem not to apply to the UK/USA signals intelligence agencies.
14. Re:Who. Fucking. Cares. by AHuxley · 2013-10-21 12:25 · Score: 1
  
  The fun fact is how the NSA and French based telcos would have to work together on this. How is this been done internally? Thats a lot of sites in France that would need US splitting. Optical loops out to a safe US/UK sites in Spain, UK, Italy or Germany? Are French telcos looping all their domestic calls via other EU countries to save domestic interconnect fees?
  The "shocking" question for France is how :)
  
  --
  Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
15. Re:Who. Fucking. Cares. by echnaton192 · 2013-10-21 13:55 · Score: 1
  
  now they are not trying to spy on the whole US population. and as a side note, my country explicitly does not spy on the american government, the american people or even american embassys. Yes itcnscGermany and yes, this is true for all that we know.
  even your "everybody else is doing it" claim is a lie
16. Re:Who. Fucking. Cares. by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 15:55 · Score: 0
  
  I guess then the french troops can withdraw their cooperation from the U.S. War on Terror. Why should french legionaries die when you can't appreciate.
17. Re:Who. Fucking. Cares. by Maritz · 2013-10-21 17:48 · Score: 1
  
  They hired him, they enabled him to work without appropriate oversight (imagine that lol) and made it facile for him to access data that he shouldn't have been able to access. In other words, they're incompetent dickheads with delusions of grandeur. You ought to be able to find better masters more befitting your quest for serfdom.
  
  --
  I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
18. Re:Who. Fucking. Cares. by Eunuchswear · 2013-10-21 22:33 · Score: 1
  
  Mod parent up for asking the big question noone is asking.
  How did they do it.
  Who helped them.
  
  --
  Watch this Heartland Institute video
19. Re:Who. Fucking. Cares. by AHuxley · 2013-10-22 01:21 · Score: 1
  
  The only aspect I can think of is France runs a huge "domestic" digital network that spans the globe due to many Francophone interests. They would get their 'local calls' as been part of France. The US has designed its way in to become part of that wider more complex French network? Or France for the sake of cheap connectivity bought massive amounts of "US" back door telco kit and is now paying the real price. The problem for me is still the massive areas of regional France. How is the US getting into the internal domestic networks 24/7. For that you would need a Vichy "tech" Milice to actively help and collaborate to hide foreign telco tech within France.
  Australia, the UK, Italy, Japan, Germany, NZ one can understand the how of the telco deal ... France is not a total client state or a defeated nation.
  
  --
  Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
20. Re:Who. Fucking. Cares. by Eunuchswear · 2013-10-22 01:46 · Score: 1
  
  Or France for the sake of cheap connectivity bought massive amounts of "US" back door telco kit
  
  More or less the other way round - Bell became Lucent and got bought by Alcatel.
  I.E. Most Americal telco stuff is made by a French company.
  Maybe a French company riddled with American moles?
  Anyway, I can't see how this was done from outside France. Heads must roll.
  
  --
  Watch this Heartland Institute video
Foreign intelligence by wjcofkc · 2013-10-21 03:41 · Score: 0

Two words combined that don't make sense.

--
Brought to you by Carl's Junior.
because we can by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 03:42 · Score: 1

Welcome to the new normal.
Keeping control over people have been the function of government from its creation back in the times of small hunting bands One group controls the other by controlling the information and what they know. From best hunting grounds to modern connections of people. The only difference now is it is easer to gather the data on everyone rather then set groups. Now that most everyone know's they have most of what they do watched and recorded for later use, your habits and norms can be controlled. People that know they are being watched act differently and it is not always good for society. Or it may bring forth a more secure internet by people using and demanding secure communication beyond the viewing of government. Sadly history has shown that this requires pain and suffering, wars and blood.
()-()
Not French Telephone Calls by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 03:43 · Score: 0

Freedom telephone calls
France is top industrial espionage country by schneidafunk · 2013-10-21 03:43 · Score: 2

This article articulates many points on France's recent espionage history.

--
Some people die at 25 and aren't buried until 75. -Benjamin Franklin
1. Re:France is top industrial espionage country by PolygamousRanchKid+ · 2013-10-21 04:16 · Score: 1
  
  Yes, just look at their biggest industrial coup, where France stole the best invention of the human race from another country: So-called "French" fries were actually invented by the Belgians!
  But in the international automobile industry, there used to be an old saying, "The French copy from nobody . . . but nobody copies the French."
  
  --
  Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
2. Re:France is top industrial espionage country by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · 2013-10-21 05:41 · Score: 1
  
  "The French copy from nobody . . . but nobody copies the French."
  Are you sure you want to stick with that phrase?
  
  --
  Time to offend someone
3. Re:France is top industrial espionage country by HornWumpus · 2013-10-21 06:44 · Score: 1
  
  Bugatti (the man) was Italian. His factory became french after WWI.
  It's now a division of VW.
  
  --
  John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Uh oh. by Daas · 2013-10-21 03:43 · Score: 5, Funny

La merde vient de frapper le ventilateur.
1. Re:Uh oh. by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 05:28 · Score: 1
  
  Je n'ai pas de ventilateur plafonnier en Vous insensible Claude.
2. Re:Uh oh. by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 10:44 · Score: 0
  
  Your mule is attached to a ventilator??
3. Re:Uh oh. by HuguesT · 2013-10-21 12:40 · Score: 1
  
  I haven't laughed on slashdot like this in years.
4. Re:Uh oh. by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 23:57 · Score: 0
  
  ça va chier dans les ventilos, in proper vernacular.
Old... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 03:45 · Score: 0

But gold...
go ahead.... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 03:45 · Score: 1

Go ahead, keep on voting for Republicans and Democrats. Because that isn't causing any problems at all.
1. Re:go ahead.... by ArcadeMan · 2013-10-21 04:03 · Score: 1
  
  It's choice, Jim, but not as we know it.
  
  --
  Get free satoshi (Bitcoin) and Dogecoins
If French intelligence had tapped US phones ... by schwit1 · 2013-10-21 03:46 · Score: 3, Insightful

I suspect many Americans would be demanding that Versailles get nuked or we name french fries to freedom fries.
1. Re:If French intelligence had tapped US phones ... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 03:50 · Score: 0
  
  What makes you think they didn't?
2. Re:If French intelligence had tapped US phones ... by anagama · 2013-10-21 04:17 · Score: 2
  
  This is sort of off topic but I heard a comment by Ariana Huffington in a debate on whether the US two party system is detrimental. At some point, the debate turned to job creation and she made the point that America currently ranks 10th in upward mobility, behind France. Then she said something like "The US being behind France in upward mobility is like France being behind the US in croissants and afternoon sex."
  http://intelligencesquaredus.org/debates/past-debates/item/560-the-two-party-system-is-making-america-ungovernable&tab=2
  43:35
  
  --
  What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
3. Re:If French intelligence had tapped US phones ... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 07:49 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  That's what you all like to think, but it really isn't true. Look at your political dynasties (more pronounced than what you see in most of Europe), the old and rich New England families (they're still old and rich), the third-generation US military flag officers... and at the other end of the spectrum the 8-mile "trailer trash", the drunks, the crippled and ill who never had much of a chance in life. Sure, there's the occasional exception, the genius who comes from nowhere and succeeds despite his background, but they're a handful in 300 million each generation. They're the American dream not the American reality (and they occur everywhere else too, not just America). You like to think you're the land of the free and the upwardly mobile, but it doesn't even make sense - why would you be - you're a rabidly capitalist nation. You sink or swim, and since you're so anti-state intervention that universal healthcare is a new and contentious issue the fact that any at all of those born at the bottom of the swimming pool (without armbands, to carry this non-car metaphor to its conclusion) manage to get to the top is a bit of a miracle.
  Then consider France, which is considerably more socialist than anywhere in the US and tries to provide armbands to those at the bottom; why is anyone remotely surprised that upward mobility is better in France (or most other places in Europe really)?
4. Re:If French intelligence had tapped US phones ... by jittles · 2013-10-21 09:37 · Score: 1
  
  I suspect many Americans would be demanding that Versailles get nuked or we name french fries to freedom fries.
  Destroying Versailles would be a travesty. However, a tactical nuke in an RER Station may actually improve the cleanliness and quality of service of Paris's subway system ;)
5. Re:If French intelligence had tapped US phones ... by cold+fjord · 2013-10-21 10:26 · Score: 0
  
  If French intelligence had tapped US phones ... I suspect many Americans would be demanding that Versailles get nuked or we name french fries to freedom fries.
  France has been caught spying in the US before and nothing like that happened.
  Boeing Called A Target Of French Spy Effort
  
  --
  much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
OK, I get it... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 03:49 · Score: 0

But, does EVERY damned day have to have a new Snowden-release, with the latest "outrage"?? Come ON people.
Perfectly reasonable by DeathToBill · 2013-10-21 03:51 · Score: 4, Funny

God knows, if there's anyone I want protecting from it's the French. Sir Humphrey Appleby had it right. They may be our allies now, but for most of the last 1,000 years they've been our enemies. I'd vote for an increase of surveillance on the French.
And once that's happened, let's start on the Welsh.

--
Slashdot - News for Nerds, Stuff that Matters, in ISO-8859-1 Has just realised that beta makes this signature redundant
1. Re:Perfectly reasonable by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 04:29 · Score: -1
  
  God knows, if there's anyone I want protecting from it's the French. Sir Humphrey Appleby had it right. They may be our allies now, but for most of the last 1,000 years they've been our enemies. I'd vote for an increase of surveillance on the French.
  And once that's happened, let's start on the Welsh.
  And the Irish and the Scots. I'd say we bloody kick the UK out of Europe, they were never part of it anyway so no great loss.
  Lets sell that wretched island to the americans. A discount is possible. If I were the Yanks I'd simply nuke the island just to be sure.
2. Re:Perfectly reasonable by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 06:18 · Score: 0
  
  They tried intercepting Welsh internet traffic, but GCHQ demanded "hazzard pay" for having to sift through such enormous quantities of sheep porn.
  (BTW captcha is "fluids" - nice to see the SlashDot AI has a sense of humor, even if no sense of taste.)
3. Re:Perfectly reasonable by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 06:44 · Score: 0
  
  >They tried intercepting Welsh internet traffic...
  It's not the porn that gets them, it's the endless strings of consonants...
  Signed,
  Llewellyn Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch
4. Re:Perfectly reasonable by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 07:42 · Score: 0
  
  Damn you Manx Islanders with your weird flags and superior attitude
5. Re:Perfectly reasonable by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 08:16 · Score: 0
  
  Too late boyo, we have Llap Goch and we know where you live (in a holiday home in Rhyl)
6. Re:Perfectly reasonable by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 08:42 · Score: 0
  
  So America has been around longer than 240 years?
7. Re:Perfectly reasonable by cold+fjord · 2013-10-21 10:29 · Score: 1
  
  I'd say we bloody kick the UK out of Europe..... If I were the Yanks I'd simply nuke the island just to be sure.
  Not going to happen. Not only is the UK a key ally of the US, but it is also the seed for many of the best sitcoms. Nobody will be willing to give that up.
  
  --
  much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
8. Re:Perfectly reasonable by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 18:03 · Score: 0
  
  You never know what the Picts are up to. Next step is therefore the complete surveillance of the humongous English forests, with wolves and like. An increase of castle building might be needed as well.
Backwards wording by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 03:51 · Score: 0

"The NSA recorded millions of telephone calls placed by French citizens over a 30-day period last year, including some placed by people with no connections to terrorist organizations"
Not really.
"The NSA recorded millions of telephone calls placed by French citizens over a 30-day period last year, including a miniscule few by people with supected connections to terrorist organizations"
It's all just a show by sjbe · 2013-10-21 03:53 · Score: 5, Insightful

which is not a valid argument for any NSA actions against a friendly country.
There is no such thing as a friendly foreign country as far as intelligence services are concerned. While I (and probably you) do not and should not approve of the NSA's actions, we also should not be even a tiny bit surprised by them and you can be quite sure France is not surprised despite what their government might claim. Allies can become enemies and even countries on good terms can harbor dangerous individuals - sometimes unknowingly. The US and Canada have the longest undefended border in the world but I guarantee you that they do spy on each other and that each has developed invasion/defense plans against the other just in case. Intelligence services like the CIA and NSA look for information wherever it can be found. If that happens to be a "friendly" nation or even their own citizens then so be it. This is why it is SO important to have meaningful oversight by civilian authorities. Something which we are sorely lacking at the present time.
Countries that complain about NSA spying are really just putting on a show for their voting public. They have their own intelligence services and you can be 100% certain they are spying on the US and you can also be 100% sure that they knew or at least suspected the NSA spying already. Frankly the ONLY thing that would surprise me is if they were not trying to replicate to some degree what the US is doing.
1. Re:It's all just a show by ArcadeMan · 2013-10-21 04:01 · Score: 3, Funny
  
  Oh yeah, "just in case". Never mind the fact that we Canadians had robotic moose and beavers for the last 150 years and we've been using them to spy on you since the late 1200's.
  
  --
  Get free satoshi (Bitcoin) and Dogecoins
2. Re:It's all just a show by wayne_t · 2013-10-21 04:15 · Score: 5, Funny
  
  I'd like to know more about these robotic beavers of which you speak.
3. Re:It's all just a show by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 05:42 · Score: 0
  
  Indeed. There might be an Arminius hiding somewhere in the Imperium Perversium.
4. Re:It's all just a show by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 05:56 · Score: 0
  
  I knew it! It's open season on moose and beaver.
What is the plan here? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 03:57 · Score: 0

Screw all your friends over until you don't have any friends?
Asking for their statue back? by petes_PoV · 2013-10-21 03:57 · Score: 3, Insightful

So will the french demand the return of the Statue of Liberty that they gifted to the americans?
Not so much as retribution, simply because it doesn't apply, any more.

--
politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
1. Re:Asking for their statue back? by Sez+Zero · 2013-10-21 04:06 · Score: 1
  
  So will the french demand the return of the Statue of Liberty that they gifted to the americans?
  Hey France: Molon labe.
2. Re:Asking for their statue back? by ImOuttaHere · 2013-10-21 04:22 · Score: 1
  
  I think this is a brilliant idea. You're right, the Statue of Liberty does not apply any longer. Well, certainly not in America, at least.
  
  So will the french demand the return of the Statue of Liberty that they gifted to the americans?
  Not so much as retribution, simply because it doesn't apply, any more.
3. Re:Asking for their statue back? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 04:22 · Score: 0
  
  So will the french demand the return of the Statue of Liberty that they gifted to the americans?
  Not so much as retribution, simply because it doesn't apply, any more.
  We already have a smaller version of the statue of liberty in Paris.
  Where would we put the "original" one though ? I'd say lets melt it and be done with it once and for all.
4. Re:Asking for their statue back? by Coeurderoy · 2013-10-21 05:21 · Score: 1
  
  Nope you need to keep it, all our surveillance hardware in embedded in it, courtesy of Tesla !
  The only issue is that the long distance etheric receptor was stolen by Francis Blanche while filming "Signé Furax" and now only French comics get a direct line
  on the shenanigans happening in the US ....
5. Re:Asking for their statue back? by TubeSteak · 2013-10-21 06:22 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  So will the french demand the return of the Statue of Liberty that they gifted to the americans?
  
  The intellectual father of the Statue (Laboulaye) and the designer (Bartholdi) both felt that the United States better embodied the spirit of liberte, egalite, fraternite than Napoleon's empire.
  Which is why the Statue of Liberty was installed in the USA, facing France, as a big middle finger to Napoleon III.
  (Even though Napoleon was long gone by the time the Statue was finished.)
  
  --
  [Fuck Beta]
  o0t!
6. Re:Asking for their statue back? by cold+fjord · 2013-10-21 10:39 · Score: 0
  
  So will the french demand the return of the Statue of Liberty that they gifted to the americans?
  Not so much as retribution, simply because it doesn't apply, any more.
  The spying was in France. The US is still free. Your post is nonsense.
  
  --
  much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Funny by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 04:00 · Score: 1

I find it funny that this is such a revelation to people. NATO countries have been spying on each other for decades. Agencies are often not allowed to spy on their own citizens, but if you could get another country to do it it would be perfectly legal. Basically the French politicians are pretending to be alarmed to get elected again. All the while they know the information is already being shared with them. All alphabet agencies share copious amounts of data between countries and have been for decades. You were under the impression INTERPOL, BND, DGSE, SIS, etc are all running around not sharing data?
And people are surprised by this? by gravis777 · 2013-10-21 04:01 · Score: 1

People have "known" (ie suspected) for years that the federal government was doing something like this. With all the revelations that have been released recently, why are people so surprised when another comes out? And this may have been started by the previous administration (or the one before that) but the current administration knew about it. I am kinda surprised there has not been a Congressional hearing about this yet.
1. Re:And people are surprised by this? by ImOuttaHere · 2013-10-21 04:29 · Score: 2
  
  American's "know" a lot of things, but never seem to have the time to take any action to right the wrongs perpetrated on them (and others around the world). Taking no action means agreement. Therefore, why do Americans agree that spending massive amounts of taxpayer monies on illegal spying operations is a Good Thing(tm)? Are you that paranoid and fearful that someone will "get you?" Does this illegal spying help you sleep soundly at night? What? Please explain.
2. Re:And people are surprised by this? by sI4shd0rk · 2013-10-21 04:41 · Score: 1
  
  Most people are imbeciles, so I wouldn't be surprised if many people are surprised by this. But that said, just because people are reacting to it angrily does not mean they're surprised.
  
  --
  Ignorance is a choice
3. Re:And people are surprised by this? by Charliemopps · 2013-10-21 05:33 · Score: 1
  
  Because now we can express our outrage without sounding like cooks.
4. Re:And people are surprised by this? by painandgreed · 2013-10-21 08:39 · Score: 1
  
  American's "know" a lot of things, but never seem to have the time to take any action to right the wrongs perpetrated on them (and others around the world). Taking no action means agreement. Therefore, why do Americans agree that spending massive amounts of taxpayer monies on illegal spying operations is a Good Thing(tm)? Are you that paranoid and fearful that someone will "get you?" Does this illegal spying help you sleep soundly at night? What? Please explain.
5. Re:And people are surprised by this? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-22 01:22 · Score: 0
  
  Agreed, at this point it might be easier just to list the names of the five or six people in the world that the NSA *HASN'T* illegally monitored.
6. Re:And people are surprised by this? by gravis777 · 2013-10-23 02:50 · Score: 1
  
  Who says we do? It's not like the NSA is an elected form of government that we can just vote out if we don't like it. This would involve either a Supreme Court case (whose members are elected by the sitting President upon a former judge stepping down or dying) or a Congressional investigation, and recent events suggest that neither party is capable of doing anything. Even if a state or area elects a Congressman or Senator who really does stand out of the status quo, it is one voice among hundreds. Hence the breakdown of the American system.
Spying is like having an affair by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 04:02 · Score: 1

To have an affair is a very French thing to do. To get caught is an American thing.
terrorists have the phone habits of the average by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 04:03 · Score: 0

Terr1: "What'ya do'ing, dog?!"
terr2: "Hang'in build'in bombs. And you?"
"Same ole, same ole. Did ya catch that bombing by Sucmadiq? Damn Dog! That was rad!"
"Nah. My Mom kept me in because I played Call of Duty too long. Play it?"
"Hell yeah! I get to kill all those infidels! And many times I pose as one and start shoot'm in the back!"
"Dog!"
"Word!"
How? by DMiax · 2013-10-21 04:05 · Score: 1

I'm wondering how this is possible. As long as it's communications going through Google, Skype, or some other americal corp, it's pretty easy to just intercept whatever goes through their servers. Intercepting real landlines is a wholly different game. It needs on site infrastracture, cause I doubt they get routed through the US. This means there is someone inside France that should get their ass handed to them for this, before one even starts thinking of the guys at NSA.
LMFTFY by tgd · 2013-10-21 04:05 · Score: 1

"The US National Security Agency (NSA) has been intercepting FREEDOM telephone calls 'on a massive scale,' according to a report published in Le Monde.
The French government is enraged.... by argStyopa · 2013-10-21 04:06 · Score: 0

...that the NSA managed to intercept more calls of French citizens.... ...than the French government.

--
-Styopa
1. Re:The French government is enraged.... by Rob+the+Bold · 2013-10-21 04:40 · Score: 2
  
  ...that the NSA managed to intercept more calls of French citizens.... ...than the French government.
  The French government, among other parties, will be really enraged if it's revealed that they were willing accomplices. Or even if they just knew about it and kept it quiet based on some "understanding" with the US and British.
  
  --
  I am not a crackpot.
2. Re:The French government is enraged.... by cusco · 2013-10-21 05:21 · Score: 2
  
  They didn't complain much when Echelon was intercepting all of the French phone calls, probably because the CIA shared that info with them. I think they're more annoyed that the NSA is just greedy.
  
  --
  "Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
3. Re:The French government is enraged.... by cold+fjord · 2013-10-21 10:44 · Score: 1
  
  Oui.
  
  --
  much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Bad Summary by RivenAleem · 2013-10-21 04:13 · Score: 2

The summary makes no mention of how much all these phone calls weighed.
1. Re:Bad Summary by Jade_Wayfarer · 2013-10-21 20:22 · Score: 1
  
  Probably somewhat around two football fields.
  
  --
  Absence of proof != proof of absence.
What is going on? by hduff · 2013-10-21 04:16 · Score: 1

Hmmmm .
http://i.imgur.com/ZNEidk7.jpg

--
"I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people all day long and I assume they deserve it." : Dogbert
"Americans are arrogant" by davidwr · 2013-10-21 04:33 · Score: 1

Well, at least now the French have a good reason to call us arrogant.
Sigh.

--
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
Just in case by sjbe · 2013-10-21 04:47 · Score: 3, Interesting

Oh yeah, "just in case"
Yes, just in case for both sides. Doesn't mean the plans are expected to be used but you can be certain that the US military has at some point developed plans for attacking and defending against every country in the world. Just in case.
1. Re:Just in case by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 22:20 · Score: 0
  
  I'd just be worried about their plans to subjugate and neutralize the threat of the citizenry.
  They seem to be buying the hardware "just in case".
at this point by postmortem · 2013-10-21 04:51 · Score: 1

It is easier to find who NSA doesn't spy... so far that list is []
Were they surprised? by Captain_Chaos · 2013-10-21 05:01 · Score: 3, Insightful

I think every country on Earth can safely assume that the NSA spied on and recorded some large proportion of their telephone calls. It's almost naive to be outraged every time it gets confirmed.
Did you read the article ? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 05:03 · Score: 2, Informative

It is a blatant general accusation without evidence.
You don't frighten us, American pig-dogs! by zawarski · 2013-10-21 05:06 · Score: 0

Go and boil your bottoms, son of a silly person! You empty-headed animal food-trough wiper! Ah fart in your general direction! Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelt of elderberries!
Everything Old is New Again by Swave+An+deBwoner · 2013-10-21 05:11 · Score: 2

Peter Allen had it right ..
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/how_they_do_it/2006/02/wiretapping_europeanstyle.html
Reported and discussed several years ago:

Washington's biggest European critic -- France -- also has a serious wiretapping habit, as Marc Perelman points out in Foreign Policy: "In addition to judicially ordered taps there are also 'administrative wiretaps' decided by security agencies under the control of the government."
1. Re:Everything Old is New Again by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 23:16 · Score: 0
  
  Wiretaps, I not wiretapping en masse everyone and everything. Some though and decision making went into this, not "in case we'd need info on that guy ten years from now".
The math speaks for itself by sandbagger · 2013-10-21 05:36 · Score: 1, Insightful

France has 65 million people. The number of terrorists is well under one per cent; now unless the baddies phone even more than the average teenaged girl, millions of eavesdrops is at best described as waste of brains, time and money in addition to unethical.
Monitoring millions of calls, including the admitted 'politicians' and 'high profile businessmen' means espionage and industrial espionage. Now, I expect that nation states indulge in a certain amount of espionage against their allies. It's natural. One hopes less than against their actual enemies but given France's dependance upon areas upon which America wishes to also have exports -- aviation and armaments -- I'd anticipate that this may be a can of worms that keeps on giving.
No-one holds a grudge like the French government.

--
---- The above post was generated by the Turing Institute. Maybe.
1. Re:The math speaks for itself by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 07:53 · Score: 0
  
  France's dependence on US military exports? Hm. They have indigenous aircraft carriers, nuclear submarines, nuclear weapons, fighter aircraft. The French rarely even successfully collaborate with other European powers on military stuff; they're way more independent (and give less of a shit about buying from the USSA) than, say, the British.
2. Re:The math speaks for itself by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 14:10 · Score: 0
  
  You missread.
  France are dependant on French exports of the same things that America wishes to export.
  Hence America spying on them to gain competitive advantage.
Jokes on them by Hentes · 2013-10-21 05:43 · Score: 2

They were all in French.
Freedom Fries. by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 05:46 · Score: 0

France being one of the countires that weren't swayed by Bush's "They tried to kill my daddy" plea,
weren't part of the Iran invasion. We got Freedom Fries, and tards dumped wine in the gutter.
Yep, the French asked for this one.
1. Re:Freedom Fries. by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 06:18 · Score: 0
  
  You still don't get it. Saddam was hanged because he lobbed some symbolic missiles onto that Apartheid state. Also, as an Arab nationalist and Socialist he mightily pissed the stone-age muslims of Saudi-Arabia. You know, those who flew into your buildings.
  See ? All highly pervert. Rational would have been to bomb Mecca in order to show how much their jealous shitty god is worth. You know, the god of Treating Women Like Shit, Cutting off Hands, Killing people for leaving the silly, jealous god.
  But you know what ? Saudis have money. They BUY sympathy.
America, aka USA by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 05:46 · Score: 0

this country was born a couple of centuries ago. My own family manor house is much older.
It's just like are arrogant teenager who knows nothing but is conviced that his lifestyle is the best on earth and in times.
Lack of culture, lack of will, the poor little undereducated teen will soon have to face that many kids on the block are much more skilled than he even ever dreamed to be.
So he grabs a gun ... and his mama cries.
In the gettho.
Military intelligence by multimediavt · 2013-10-21 05:47 · Score: 1

Two words combined that don't make sense.
(see title) FTFY
Some? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 07:32 · Score: 0

NSA recorded millions of telephone calls placed by French citizens over a 30-day period last year, including some placed by people with no connections to terrorist organizations.
Wow, just fancy that. Out of millions of telephone calls, some were placed by people with no connections to terrorist organisations.
I bet they did if you look up to 6 handshakes away....
Out of context by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 08:19 · Score: 0

"including some placed by people with no connections to terrorist"
Lets hope there is not over a million calls between terrorists in the whole France. I would say that the majority is not from or to terrorists.
Huh? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 09:00 · Score: 0

The satute of libery is nothing more than a symbol of queen semiramis wrapped in freemasonry. It never applied to actual freedom.
That's the funny thing about retarded Americans. They don't even realize what the symbols that guide their lives stand for. Such as the dollar bill, and many many many other symbols that hide under the guise of "freedom and liberty"
The French freemasons and Merovingians at the top could give 2 shits about their 'country' being wiretapped - as they are the ones running the tapping with the NSA.
Nobody is arguging otherwise by OrangeTide · 2013-10-21 09:33 · Score: 1

America is 75% christian, and given how feral and out-of-countrol some of the groups are, I'd say they're fair game.
Domestic terrorism is a thing, and attacks have occurred in the past. Just because you have problem with one group doesn't mean we're ignoring all the other groups either.

--
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
And nobody does anything about it... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-21 12:15 · Score: 0

The non-US governments whom didn't participate in this dragnet surveillance need to stand up, and the people of these governments (UK, US, New Zealand, etc), and violently overthrow them. Short of this nothing will change.
French by Alsee · 2013-10-21 14:09 · Score: 1

I dunno why France is complaining, the NSA only has a single french translator.
They have him on part-time loan, when he's not busy translating Quebec intercepts for Canadian Intelligence.
-

--
- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
Let's just save time; by Tifer · 2013-10-22 05:49 · Score: 1

in the future, we can just assume the NSA has spied on everybody. It's a waste of energy to type out every group they've watched--let's start a list of people they haven't been spying on. It would be a much smaller list, apparently.
Really? by CHIT2ME · 2013-10-22 12:11 · Score: 0

Do you really believe that France, Russia, China, etc., etc., aren't doing the same thing? Wake up folks! The whole world is spying on each and everyone of us. The solution is simple, just make sure anything you say or do online, on the phone, or whatever else that's public, is something you wouldn't mind your grandmother seeing. If you must do or say something that is not, do it in private, face to face, in a room that has not/can not be bugged.

--
My karma is bad. Don't get too close!!!