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USB Implementers Forum Won't Play Nice With Open Hardware

Posted by timothy on from the keeping-the-universal-out-of-universal dept.

DeathToBill writes "Hack A Day reports on the attempts of open hardware hackers to obtain a vendor and product ID for their devices to be able to sell them as USB compliant: 'A not for profit foundation [in this case Arachnid Labs] could buy a VID, give PIDs away to foundation members making open source hardware, and we would all live in a magical world of homebrew devices that are certified as USB compliant.' The USB Implementers Forum, which controls the sale of PIDs, has lawyered up, responding to the effort with a cease and desist notice, requiring Arachnid Labs to stop 'raising funds to purchase a unique USB VID' and 'delete all references to the USB-IF, VIDs and PIDs for transfer, resale or sublicense from your website and other marketing materials.' A slight over-reaction? Or dark conspiracy against open hardware? You decide!"

23 of 273 comments (clear)

  1. Pardon my ignorance but... by Thanshin · · Score: 5, Interesting

    What does it imply not being certified as USB compliant?

    If you have USB and people use it and it works and reviewers use it and just say "it has USB"...

    What I mean is: Is it forbidden by law to say "It's got USB" if it's not certified as USB compliant?

    1. Re:Pardon my ignorance but... by gl4ss · · Score: 5, Informative

      afaik no but you can't use the logos.

      I guess the usb guys are doing this to raise moar money for them. you see if you just need a few why would you buy a whole batch at a crazy cost.....

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    2. Re:Pardon my ignorance but... by PhrostyMcByte · · Score: 4, Informative

      What I mean is: Is it forbidden by law to say "It's got USB" if it's not certified as USB compliant?

      USB is a trademark. They don't let you use it if you're not compliant.

    3. Re:Pardon my ignorance but... by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 5, Informative

      There are two main issues here:

      1. If you don't go through whatever song-and-dance the USB IF wants you to to be 'certified', you can't use any of the trademarked logos (the little trident-thing symbol, possibly various words and phrases associated with 'USB'). Technologically, this isn't an issue, legally it might be(unless you are willing to use some janky-sounding circumlocution to suggest that, while not a 'USB device' your widget would probably do something useful if plugged into that rectangular, 4-pin port...)

      2. VID/PID combinations are (ideally) supposed to be helpful in identifying USB devices without playing ugly little games of "20 questions" to try to discern what the hell you are talking to by fingerprinting its behavior. Device presents VID/PID, OS looks up appropriate driver, no muss, no fuss. There isn't anything the USB IF can do legally about a device declaring whatever VID/PID it wants (sure, just try to defend a trademark claim on a bunch of arbitrary numbers); but it would certainly be a huge pain for everyone involved if duplicate VID/PIDs start showing up in any quantity, since the OS would have to resort to fingerprinting heuristics to try to guess what it is actually talking to, and what driver should be used.

      Unfortunately, for whatever reason(despite the fact that the namespace is huge), the USB IF is notably unhelpful for anybody who wants to do a small-run; but do so commercially. They, in their goodness, deign to make some "prototype" VID/PID blocks available, ostensibly only for noncommercial use; but getting a proper VID is some thousands of dollars, plus paperwork, and (as here) they are apparently pretty touchy about the (otherwise quite sensible) "Well, we have a lot of small hobbyists who can't afford a VID, and won't be putting out enough products to warrant one anyway, why can't we buy a single VID and hand out PIDs?" plan.

      Some vendors, as a value-add for their USB-enabled silicon (FTDI for their USB/serial converters, some microcontroller makers with their USB-slave capable micros, etc.) will provide PIDs, for use with their products, for free, which is apparently OK for some reason; but they don't appear to like this idea very much.

    4. Re:Pardon my ignorance but... by Amouth · · Score: 4, Funny

      your USB port is certified as not unleashing terrifying cyber-demons to everything that connects to it.

      But what if that is it's advertized and intended purpose? IS there something saying i can't sell a device that unleashes terrifying cyber-demons?

      I see this as just plain discrimination. Won't someone think of all the cyber-demons sitting around looking for work? Please people let them work, in turn they will create more work for SysAdmins and therefor will be a job creator, please people think of the jobs!

      --
      '...if only "Jumping to a Conclusion" was an event in the Olympics.'
    5. Re:Pardon my ignorance but... by Moryath · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Well that's often how standards work.

      Consider how VHS beat Beta (aside from the "having Porn" aspect). Consider how many of Sony's other proprietary formats failed to take off because a cheaper, "technically inferior" alternative exists. DAT, MiniDisc, "Sony Dynamic Digital Sound", ATRAC, HiFD... the world is uncompromising.

      Consider how Iomega beat the pants off of SyQuest (Zip drives vs EZ135), despite being slower, lower capacity, and prone to the media itself dying in a way that would actually destroy the drive (click of death). How did they do this? By getting Gateway and Dell to pack in Zip drives on a ton of computers for about 5 years and then selling the media everywhere.

      And then Iomega tried for the Jaz drives, and competed with Castlewood's Orb drives, and both of them got smacked around by people going "hey you idiots, we can burn DVDs now."

      Consider how Blu-Ray has settled into the niche, high-end "I have a 800-inch TV and 13-point surround sound" video/audiophile nerd zone, while DVD still kicks its butt by being available to anyone who can scrape together $20 for a player, $20 for a tv of any sort (even an old CRT still works w/ it), and $5-10 a month for a Netflix subscription or some cheap movies from the local grocery store or walmart's bargain bin.

      Consider how the Atari 5200 couldn't manage to get buyers and was whomped by the Atari 2600. How the NES, woefully inferior to the Sega Genesis, nevertheless completely beat it in sales for two whole years before Nintendo finally got around to releasing the SNES (Genesis released 1989, SNES released 1991). How the supposedly "technically superior" PSP line have been a constant source of jokes and derision while Nintendo laughs their ass to the bank re-releasing old games on Gameboy/DS/3DS hardware that is, in terms of technical limitations, less powerful than an old Playstation and makes the games look more than a decade old.

      Look how hard Apple tried to push Firewire only to have nobody else want it. Look how hard they're now trying to push Thunderbolt, which they can only sell to people who by an Apple laptop or desktop machine. Thunderbolt is headed the way of Firewire, fast.

      It does you no good to be "technically superior" if you can't get your product into people's hands. History is littered with "technically superior" crap that nobody adopted.

    6. Re:Pardon my ignorance but... by VortexCortex · · Score: 5, Funny

      History is littered with "technically superior" crap that nobody adopted.

      Mfh... n-- You take that back! My Dreamcast is Not CRAP! I'll show you crap!
      ...

      Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to change my HDDVDBVDs.

    7. Re:Pardon my ignorance but... by TheCarp · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Just looking over this: http://www.linux-usb.org/usb.ids first list I could find of Vendor IDs.

      Seems a simple solution. Name a new standard "CSB" or Compatible Serial Bus. It is identical to USB in every way, except reserves several sections of the VID range that are currently unused (there are many there is plenty of ID space) to be designated through this new body.

      Then tell them which ranges you chose and that they can go fuck themselves, as they will be screwing over any vendor they assign those VIDs to, knowing that somebody else is claiming them and they are likely to cause conflicts.

      Problem solved.

      --
      "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
    8. Re:Pardon my ignorance but... by umafuckit · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Nintendo's products are not a good example of technically inferior stuff doing better in the market place. They're games consoles and what Nintendo does is produce games that play well and that people love. Technical whizz-bang only gets you so far; if the games suck the sales will be slower.

      --
      soylentnews.org
    9. Re:Pardon my ignorance but... by squiggleslash · · Score: 4, Interesting

      FWIW there's also the whole "Technically superior for you doesn't mean technically superior for me" stuff.

      - VHS vs Beta - Ability to record an entire movie (or two!) on one tape vs marginally (and questionable) better image quality.
      - Storage system (the Sony and IOMega formats you mention) - works anywhere devices vs good but not compelling advantages hampered by unavailability of readers. (And in Sony's case, often proprietary, crippled, software that damaged the utility of the supposed advantages in the first place.)
      - DVD/Netflix vs Blu-ray - wide range of low cost movies that work reliably on supported hardware vs marginally higher quality (in most cases) in exchange for unreliability, higher cost, and limited selection.

      I can probably go on with the other technologies. The one that I'm noticing going the same route as "VHS vs Beta" (ie insistent fanbois insisting the failed system is technically superior but ignoring reality) is LCD vs Plasma. The latter is a system of fragile televisions that have problems showing anything other than native aspect ratio content without risking problems for hours later. The former is a system of rock solid TVs where owners don't have to worry about the type of content they're viewing (4:3, 16:9, 21:9, paused video games, etc) whose color range was once poor but these days is about equal except in exceptional conditions. By any reasonable count, LCD is now a technically superior option for most people. But the videophile community doesn't want to hear that, and I guarantee you that in twenty years, LCD "winning" over Plasma despite "poorer quality" will continue to be pushed just as the VHS vs Beta thing is today.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    10. Re:Pardon my ignorance but... by LordLimecat · · Score: 5, Informative

      I guess the usb guys are doing this to raise moar money for them.

      Its also possible that in standard slashdot fashion the article / headline presents only one side of the story in an incredibly slanted fashion, and theres some important detail we're missing.

      Forgive the cynicism, but after so many years here one begins to think that the summaries-- and often even the articles-- dont tend to be an accurate snapshot of reality.

      Addendum: And of course, that appears to be the case. The letter sent wasnt a "screw you and your OSS tendencies", it was more of a "no, you cannot transfer PIDs like you want to; please cease pursuing that plan":

      The VID is provided to the assigned company to identify only its own products and neither the VID nor associated PIDs may be sublicensed, transferred or offered for resale in any manner.
      The policy of the USB-IF regarding vendor ID numbers (VIDs) is as stated in the attached policy statement. In general, VIDs are not transferable.
      The USB-IF has long had a VID/PID process for hobbyists.
      Please immediately cease.........

    11. Re:Pardon my ignorance but... by nicksdjohnson · · Score: 5, Informative

      That is precisely what I was attempting to negotiate, and what inspired that response from USB-IF.

    12. Re:Pardon my ignorance but... by Minwee · · Score: 5, Funny

      Do you know what de facto means?

      Well, I know what everybody says it means, but not necessarily what the rules say it's supposed to mean.

    13. Re:Pardon my ignorance but... by omnichad · · Score: 4, Funny

      Woosh, sir. Woosh.

    14. Re:Pardon my ignorance but... by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 5, Interesting

      slightly OT, but one great use of the firewire cable is inter-box i2c cabling.

      when I build hardware projects that run i2c between boxes, I use firewire pc connect tabs (like you'd see on the back of a pc, where the pci cards would be) but just without the tab and keeping the bulk-head style mount of the firewire jack and cabling. 2 of them, one on each box (for me, they are DIY audio boxes) and then a bog-standard I-dont-have-to-make-it-myself firewire cable to connect them. building cables and having a strong strain relief is hard for DIYers but using factory made cables is a huge benefit and cost-savings.

      FW has 2 shielded signals (I use them for i2c clock and i2c data) and then has 2 beefy power wires, which I use to ship 5v across boxes so that the 'remote' box doesn't even need a local 5v psu. at the highest i2c speed, this cable is robust enough and exceeds the i2c specs in terms of crosstalk between clock/data (they are both shielded coax) and you can get short or long FW cables.

      I've never seen anyone do this before but its a handy DIY trick. and even if you do plug this cable into a pc, by mistake, you still are using the 5v wire for 5v and gnd for gnd, so no harm should be done. it won't 'init', but no damage happens.

      (end diy-CSB)

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    15. Re:Pardon my ignorance but... by pjrc · · Score: 5, Informative

      I have read the entire spec, except a few parts about the physical molding/construction of cables and some parts of the last chapter about hubs. I've read many of the change notices that come in the zip file with the main PDF. I've also read the entire HID, Mass Storage class specs, most of the CDC class spec, substantial parts of many of the others, and a good portion of the OHCI spec. I've also read the datasheets for numerous chips, API documentation for Mac, Windows and Linux (at least libusb on Linux), and numerous other related documents.

      Yes, there's a lot of documentation. No, I haven't gouged my brain out.

      I have implemented 2 USB device-side stacks on microcontrollers (a.k.a. "bare metal") from scratch. Both are commercially successful and in widespread use on Teensy 2.0 and 3.0 and numerous projects and products people have designed and incorporated my code.

      While you've done neither, I most certainly have done both: read the specs and implement portions of USB. I would disagree with your opinion that summarizes USB as "horrible".

      It's actually a pretty well though out system.

      --
      PJRC: Electronic Projects, 8051 Microcontroller Tools
  2. The USB Implementers Forum by gstoddart · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So, The USB Implementers Forum is a cartel intended to make sure only approved corporations can play the game then?

    And, once again, corporations take over everything and the rest of us can eat cake. Color me totally un-surprised.

    --
    Lost at C:>. Found at C.
  3. Re:Or missing the point entirely. by Joining+Yet+Again · · Score: 4, Informative

    No.

  4. Quite understandable by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It's quite understandable. Since a badly built commercial or home device can destroy the USB port on a computer or even feed back enough energy to destroy other components, making the "USB compliant" certification freely available without some trace of contractual responsibility is dangerousl. We went through this with Microsoft and their "Java" labels on their box. It would be too easy for those "magically freed" vendors to make, and sell, incompatible or even destructive hardware.

  5. Clarifications by nicksdjohnson · · Score: 5, Insightful

    To clarify: Issuing VIDs, and logo licensing & compliance testing are entirely distinct things. Every USB device must have a unique PID/VID combination, used to identify a device and load correct drivers. In order to produce your own device, you must have a VID of your own (in which case you manage PID allocation), or get a PID from someone else - a practice USB-IF frowns upon outside certain strictly defined circumstances. Obtaining a VID without USB-IF membership costs a one off fee of $5000. Having a VID doesn't entitle you to use the USB logo. Independent of getting a VID, you can become a USB-IF logo licensee or member ($3500, or $4000/year respectively) and certify your devices, whereupon they can bear the USB logo. The HaD post, and my original post that it's based upon, is entirely about the issue of obtaining VIDs and PIDs for hobbyists; certification is a separate matter.

  6. Re:Or missing the point entirely. by pla · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You don't make hardware USB-compliant simply by having a PID&VID. And the process - as with most processes where numbers are assigned (consider, for example, the IANA) - doesn't admit subversion by buying up a block of numbers then re-selling.

    RTFA. It specifically mentions three licensed vendors (Microchip, FTDI, and Openmoko) that already do exactly that. So no, this has nothing to do with quality control, and everything to do with control control.

    Personally, though, I don't see the problem. VTM apparently thinks much too highly of their coveted IP, blinding them to the reality of their situation - They have "Xerox"ed themselves. Kleenex. Escalator. Genericization sucks, suckas!

    USB has become so ubiquitous, products using it don't need to advertise that fact - If something comes with a visible USB A or B connector on it, end users will just plug it in without giving a second thought about what logos the box had on it.

  7. CAN THE VHS/BETA MYTH FUCKING DIE NOW by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    I worked on both VHS and Betamax video tape recorders as both an operator and a repair technician from the time the bloody things were invented until Beta finally died.

    Consumer Betamax video tape recorders were not technically better than VHS. They just weren't, no matter how many times people parrot this nonsense. I personally set them up, ran them, fixed them for at least a decade. The tape path and mechanics of beta were fucking retarded compared to VHS, and that's why even cheap shoddy VHS mechanisms worked just as well as expensive Sony betamax machines!

    No human being could tell the difference in picture quality after the machines were more than two weeks old, because there wasn't any once they'd been used for a while. We used to challenge customers on brand new machines and nobody could ever successfully do it, not ever. For all practical purposes they were identical, Beta's tiny horizontal sync advantage evaporated in real use and the resolution was the same.

    In the Real World[tm] VHS machines were more economical, more reliable, just as high fidelity, and recorded longer. Betamax was an also-ran second best and that's why VHS won.

    Wikipedia has plenty of proof if you won't believe hands-on experience. Stop repeating this total bullshit fanboy crap.

    1. Re:CAN THE VHS/BETA MYTH FUCKING DIE NOW by sandoval88419 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Stop repeating this total bullshit fanboy crap.

      Yeah I agree with you, it's time VHS/Betamax fanboys stop this nonsense.

      It's 21th century now, there are more important wars to be discussed, ex. : Emacs vs. Vim :-)