Nebraska Scientists Refuse To Carry Out Climate Change-Denying Study

Governor Appointed by Yahooti · 2013-10-27 07:15 · Score: 3, Insightful

How do we keep politics out of this?

Re:Governor Appointed by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-27 07:55 · Score: 2, Insightful

the politicized environment this topic is stuck in.
oil companies make trillions each year, THAT's the source of the politicization (with the help of some media networks, funded by said corps of course.)
Re:Governor Appointed by Microlith · 2013-10-27 08:00 · Score: 5, Insightful

Indeed, it should be entirely privately funded. Thus we can focus on the research that matters: only that which can be monetized within the next 4 quarters or sooner!
Re:Governor Appointed by YoungManKlaus · 2013-10-27 08:22 · Score: 5, Insightful

I Disagree. Publically funded research is essential because there are many fields that private companies would not research (ironically, like climate change) and where monetary interests influence the results. The main problem here is that it seems that there are no checks in place to prevent (obvious) influence from eg. lobbying groups, or prevent bogus research from being funded (like the "only cyclic" climate change that is the topic here)
Re:Governor Appointed by newcastlejon · 2013-10-27 08:30 · Score: 3, Insightful

How do we keep politics out of this?
By keeping politics out of it. Set aside a portion of the national budget to research that will be overseen by an independent trust, then release all the fruits of the same into the public domain.
Sorry, we were talking pies in the sky, weren't we?

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Re:Governor Appointed by hey! · 2013-10-27 08:34 · Score: 5, Insightful

Taxpayer funding of science has *not* produced politicized science; not during the period, say, from the end of WW2 to the end of the 20th C. Yeah, it *sounds* plausible that federal funding should produce politicized research, but if you ever worked in a science lab or with researchers on Federal grants you'd know that it just didn't happen.
So what has changed? Thus far, for the majority of researchers, not much. But there have been two big issues. One is the rise of political concern over climate change research. The second is the shift of the Republican party from a industrial state based, business-oriented party to a Southern regional party driven by social and religious issues. 52% of Republicans believe in creationism in a recent Gallup poll, as opposed to 34% of Democrats (still shocking). Having a majority membership of a major political party has given religious ideologues political influence they haven't enjoyed since the 1920s.

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Re:Governor Appointed by Bob9113 · 2013-10-27 08:45 · Score: 4, Insightful

By eliminating all taxpayer funding of 'science'.
As Eisenhowr said, in the paragraphs everyone ignores just after he warned of the growing Military-Industrial Complex:
Using Eisenhower's warning about the influence of politics on science to reach the conclusion that all taxpayer funded scientific research should be eliminated is about as sensible as taking his warning about the military industrial complex to conclude there should be no taxpayer funded military.

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Re:Governor Appointed by Required+Snark · 2013-10-27 09:46 · Score: 3, Insightful

So where did the internet come from? Was it a untapped natural resource that was just lying around, unused until somebody figured out how to make it work?
In case you forgot, the internet started as ARPANET, which was funded by the federal government. It was a research project, which is the R in ARPA. Research means experimentation, which is what scientists do. That this funding came out of the DOD is irrelevant. Quibbling about it not being "science" is also nonsense. The academic field that includes computer networking is called computer science. I don't think anyone has plans to change the name anytime soon.
You are dumber then a box of rocks. You live in an environment created by a huge effort on the part of countless people, many of whom worked for various governments. Jet engines, nuclear energy, computers, all resulted from government initialed efforts.
You're ignorant and ungrateful. I wish there was some way you could be stripped of all the benefits that have accrued from government research. You'd be sitting miserable in some decrepit hovel, which is all you deserve.

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Re:Governor Appointed by Ash+Vince · 2013-10-27 09:57 · Score: 4, Insightful

First, you have entire industries dedicated to profiting off of the idea that the world is about to explode unless we start going green. Solar panel manufacturers, raw materials recyclers, electric vehicle manufacturers, and much much more. Those groups alone profit from studies predicting a bad future.
That is utter crap. Solar panel manufacturing is not that profitable, if it was why is BP winding down its solar division:
http://www.bp.com/sectiongenericarticle.do?categoryId=9025019&contentId=7046515
Recycling is also not exactly a sure fire route to buckets of cash. Somethings it is cost effective to recycle like aluminium and maybe steel but most stuff is cheaper to just throw in a hole in the ground. The problem is that nobody wants a landfill next to their house and so the only money is in making rubbish go away as nobody wants to deal with it. Most stuff is simply too damn hard to split out into its raw materials in order to recycle it without serious government grants.
As to electric vehicles it might be trendy but it is nowhere near as profitable as making good old fashioned gas guzzlers. The US auto industry did not need to be bailed out due to everyone buying electric cars, they needed a bailout because labour costs were too high and because more and more people were choosing to buy foreign cars. Most other countries auto industries have done ok.
The reality is that without government funded research coming out of other countries the huge corporations and oil companies would have just out spent everyone else trying their damnedest to sweep climate change under the table.

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I dont read /. to RTFA, I read /. to offend people in ignorance.
Re:Governor Appointed by Capsaicin · 2013-10-27 12:22 · Score: 4, Insightful

So you're saying nobody anywhere ever, other than the government, would fund climate research?
Let's rephrase to remove that objection.

Publicly funded research is essential because there are many fields where private funding would be somewhere between insufficient to non-existent, especially those with low potential for obvious commercial application (ironically, like climate change). Additionally there are many fields where monetary interest raises questions about the reliability of industry based research (eg. the efficacy of glucosamine in the treatment of osteoarthritis), which reliability can be assessed only by comparison with publicly funded (as close as we can practically get to independent) research.
To blame the nature of government funded research itself, for the gross attempt at state intervention described in the present article, is not only to misunderstand the nature and ignore the importance of public research, it is to underestimate the transgression contemplated by this intervention. Instead of attacking science funding we ought attack the administrator who fails in their duty to respect independence in publicly funded research. With pitchforks if necessary.

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Re:Governor Appointed by qeveren · 2013-10-27 12:24 · Score: 3, Insightful

This, exactly. Business has no interest in pure research - it has no direct, monetizable goal - and it certainly isn't interested in sharing any results if it bothered.

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Re:Governor Appointed by riverat1 · 2013-10-27 13:01 · Score: 3, Insightful

Sort of like the National Science Foundation?

Really? by kramerd · 2013-10-27 07:18 · Score: 5, Insightful

Why do we not need a study on cyclical climate change? Recognizing how much of global warming isn't due to humans is also important.

Re:Really? by ericloewe · 2013-10-27 07:42 · Score: 5, Insightful

That's not the problem, the problem is that they were being tasked with a *wink* independent *wink* study that is definitely not *wink* supposed to benefit climate change deniers *wink*.
Of course, open-minded studies are always needed, but this specific one reeks of political interference.
Re:Really? by Carewolf · 2013-10-27 07:45 · Score: 3, Insightful

There are studies of it, plenty. What we don't need is politically motivated research with predefined results. That has also been done several times, and they all ended up agreeing with the scientific consensus (though sometimes only after being called out on fabricated numbers and bad science).
Re:Really? by sg_oneill · 2013-10-27 08:52 · Score: 4, Insightful

It is the scientists who are refusing to study it who are being political, to the detriment of science. They should be taken out and shot. Or at least kicked out of any professional organizations they belong to.
The problem is, the study they where asked to take had as part of its *premise* that it was caused by non human means.
This is a bit like asking physicists to come up with a reason that newtons apple falls that DOESNT involve gravity. It just stops being science.

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Re:Really? by jjohnson · 2013-10-27 09:19 · Score: 3, Insightful

To paraphrase you: you "should be taken out and shot". They're already studying "cyclical" climate events as a normal part of studying climate change. They're not ignoring anything. The fact that a legislative body is trying to force them to study something that they're already studying, under a label so hilariously inaccurate as to be useless, is evidence of just two things: 1) they have no fucking clue what they're talking/legislating about; 2) they want "science" backing up the conclusion with which they started.
And 3) you're a useful idiot for them.

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Re:Really? by AmiMoJo · 2013-10-27 10:00 · Score: 3, Insightful

When a politician with openly stated biases comes to you and asks for evidence to support his existing point of view you should be suspicious. No matter how good your study they will at best use one or two data points out of context and ignore your conclusions.
It's a trap.

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Re:Really? by quantaman · 2013-10-27 10:26 · Score: 5, Insightful

It is the scientists who are refusing to study it who are being political, to the detriment of science. They should be taken out and shot. Or at least kicked out of any professional organizations they belong to.
The problem is, the study they where asked to take had as part of its *premise* that it was caused by non human means.
This is a bit like asking physicists to come up with a reason that newtons apple falls that DOESNT involve gravity. It just stops being science.
It's actually worse than that. The topic of study is on the impact of climate change on Nebraska, but the bill says they're only supposed to look at "cyclical" changes.
I think it's more like asking biologists to study the effects of antibiotic resistance, but they're not allowed to use evolution and must assume that the DNA of the bacteria doesn't significantly change over time.
Not only is it a nonsense question studying a fictitious universe. It's a completely useless question since there isn't any such thing as antibiotic resistance without evolution.
What's the effect of climate change on Nebraska if you assume all the climate changes are cyclical? Well nothing, because if the changes are cyclical there is no climate change.

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So they are unwilling to establish baseline change by Crashmarik · 2013-10-27 07:20 · Score: 1, Insightful

without human involvement and they think they aren't being political as well ?

Scientific Method by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-27 07:25 · Score: 0, Insightful

> the study specifically calls for the researchers to look at 'cyclical' climate change

It's almost as if someone has proposed a hypothesis to be either validated or rejected by examination.

If they're so confident in their (pre-formed) conclusions, they should have no issues with doing this study, rejecting the hypothesis (based on evidence), and proving the opposite hypothesis. Grant money is grant money, and publications are publications. I am sure there are many grad students / post docs willing to take on this research.

K. Bring on the ad-hominem now please.

Re:Scientific Method by Guppy06 · 2013-10-27 07:50 · Score: 5, Insightful

> the study specifically calls for the researchers to look at 'cyclical' climate change
It's almost as if someone has proposed a hypothesis to be either validated or rejected by examination.
Except that it would have to be either demonstrable or falsifiable to be a hypothesis. There's no point to "study" the existence of something someone just pulled out of their ass to try to make a political point, especially when there is every indication that the person defining something as ephemeral as "cyclical climate change" will simply claim the study didn't add enough epicycles.
Re:Scientific Method by Guppy06 · 2013-10-27 09:18 · Score: 3, Insightful

There are known solar cycles for example. There are known cycles in the Gulf Stream, there is ENSO, etc., etc...

And if the study finds conclusions that the legislature doesn't like, that simply means that the study didn't focus on the right cycles, or enough cycles, or the right combination of cycles. And the study will just have to keep going until the data suits the "hypothesis."
Re:Scientific Method by mutube · 2013-10-27 10:27 · Score: 3, Insightful

Grant money is grant money, and publications are publications.

That couldn't be less true if it tried. A PhD/post-doc spent outputting useless intentionally-crippled research is not the basis of a successful career.

I am sure there are many grad students / post docs willing to take on this research.
Find one. I hear Nebraska has some money to spend.

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Misguided. by RightSaidFred99 · 2013-10-27 07:30 · Score: 3, Insightful

These scientists are misguided, to put it kindly. I don't think they've really thought out their positions.

First, science is science. There is value in studying the natural climatic progressions of the planet.

Most importantly, by refusing they are doing far more to help deniers than they would be by doing the study. Just makes them look like they have something to hide to the typical conspiracy minded denier dolt.

Re:Misguided. by artor3 · 2013-10-27 07:50 · Score: 4, Insightful

The deniers will believe whatever their masters tell them. Jumping through hoops to satisfy them accomplishes nothing, and only lends credibility to the false notion that this is still being debated by scientists. It's not.
They need to be minimized, ignored, shoved aside. Lives depend on it, and only a fool would think that another study would satisfy them.
Re:Misguided. by artor3 · 2013-10-27 08:26 · Score: 4, Insightful

We have mountains of evidence supporting AGW, and we know that AGW will result in widespread suffering and death if left unchecked. We do not, and cannot, have "mountains of evidence" against religion in general, and religion in general doesn't kill people.
We do have mountains of evidence against certain religious beliefs, such as faith healing, and in those cases we DO intervene, e.g. by forcing parents to take their kids to a doctor.
People can believe what they want, but when we as a society are making life-and-death policy decisions, we should rely on evidence and scientific consensus.

Re: Science, or sinecure? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-27 07:35 · Score: 5, Insightful

Good lord, what the fuck is wrong with the commenters here? It's for the same reason that biologists wouldn't consent to researching intelligent design as a 'falsifiable alternative' to evolution, without evolution being a part of the study. The study is framed in a way that ignores the overwhelming weight of the evidence and lends credibility to crackpots.

Re:Science, or sinecure? by DAldredge · 2013-10-27 07:38 · Score: 3, Insightful

So should government fund Young Earth Creationism "Research" / Intelligent Design research?

Re:So they are unwilling to establish baseline cha by ericloewe · 2013-10-27 07:43 · Score: 4, Insightful

You can't selectively investigate one possibility while completely ignoring the other.

You don't really get science, do you? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-27 07:53 · Score: 3, Insightful

Politician: We're commissioning a study on biodiversity. But this study strictly focuses on intelligent design, so don't include anything about evolution. After all, we should explore alternative explanations for a prevailing theory.
Biologist: We refuse to participate in your misleading, artificially limited study.
Idiot Slashdot Commenters: The biologists are an evolutionist cult! They're... they're building a cathedral! Science isn't just confirming what you know! Real scientists would do the investigation to learn more about intelligent design!

And yes, before, you say it, cyclical climate change is a real phenomenon while intelligent design is not. But the idea is the same. You can't analyze an effect and pretend one of its primary causes just doesn't exist.

Re:So they are unwilling to establish baseline cha by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-27 08:02 · Score: 4, Insightful

Of course you can. Does smoking cause cancer? That doesn't deny that radiation causes cancer, it just looks at whether smoking causes cancer.

Re:Only in America by gmuslera · 2013-10-27 08:10 · Score: 3, Insightful

If the effects of what they are doing would only hit US, then would be the laughing stock. But you don't laugh at the mad driver that is pulling all of the world to a cliff.

You think that government is apolitical? by xmark · 2013-10-27 08:21 · Score: 5, Insightful

wow

Everyone has an agenda. Government is the most powerful entity in our mixed society. It is (and has amply proven itself to be) capable of corruption, graft, and political pursuit of goals contrary to the interests of those who are taxed to fund it.

Concentration of power is the problem. Politically, big corporations and big government are a difference without a distinction. They both pursue their own agendas in service to the elites who are stakeholders, and then use propaganda to claim otherwise.

Re:You think that government is apolitical? by polar+red · 2013-10-27 08:30 · Score: 4, Insightful

Government is the most powerful entity in our mixed society.
I disagree. Look into the funding of elections.

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Re:You think that government is apolitical? by Ash+Vince · 2013-10-27 09:39 · Score: 5, Insightful

Why does that make you want to disagree? Oh, I see. You're still clinging to some outdated notion that there's some difference between government and corporations. How quaint.
Government is the most powerful entity in our mixed society precisely because it's the "end boss" of all the large corporate entities.
I think it is the other way around. Due to the huge amount of funding needed to get elected it is those who donate the most to political campaigns who ultimately are in charge, that is the corporations. Politicians simply do what their corporate backers tell them unless they know it will cause them too many problems with their electorate to get re-elected.

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I dont read /. to RTFA, I read /. to offend people in ignorance.
Re:You think that government is apolitical? by Ash+Vince · 2013-10-28 00:30 · Score: 3, Insightful

I'm afraid the root cause of the problems of corruption in government are *directly* related to the outsized power big government has - if government was limited, and could not tip the economic scales of the market in one direction or another to benefit their cronies, there would be no incentive for big business to take part in the election process.
Actually, the big reason that businesses engage with politicians is not to unbalance the market, it is to make sure they have a nice friendly environment to do business in. They lobby government to pay less tax, be allowed to hire and fire at will, and also get new laws onto the statute book that benefit them like the DMCA.
I know this is going to be a wasted breath, but anyone in the US vaguely interested in how governments work should actually take a look at a few political systems in modern Europe and see how they prevent thing like corruption and use government and regulation as a method of restricting the power of large corporations instead of enhancing it. That might involve looking beyond the news reported by US news networks though as they generally have a serious vested interest in government being weaker so the rich and the corporations that own them gain even more power to push the pro-capitalist propaganda that so many of them are so fond of.

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Great opportunity. by mevets · 2013-10-27 08:32 · Score: 2, Insightful

Method:
1. Collect data on pre-inhabited Nebraska [ say 1CE - 1700 CE - soil samples, tree rings, etc.. ]
2. Take earliest modern measurements [ say 1890 - 1900 ].
3. Superimpose #2 measurements upon #1 curves.
4. Announce expected weather for 1950 - 2050; ignoring actual measurements made during this period.
5. Conclude that the difference between measured, 1950..2013, and expected is human caused.
6. Spend rest of budget on beer + pizza.

It might actually be interesting.....

Re: Science, or sinecure? by mutube · 2013-10-27 10:37 · Score: 3, Insightful

The majority disagreeing with you |= a conspiracy.

The scientists are free to study what they like (in so far as permitted by their funding). This is a deliberately scuppered study on the effects of climate change on Nebraska. By ignoring the elephant in the room the results become next to useless, even dangerous. Since scientific careers are built on usefulness of research taking this on = ~ 3yr of career down the pan for nothing. "They should study it anyway! Scientific curiosity! Every angle!" Yes, and they should also study whether there are fairies on the moon and whether the solution to this whole climate change thing is copper bracelets or setting fire to icebergs. Nobody has checked that right?! Right!

There are an infinite amount of things to study. Scientists have to use their judgement, based on evidence and experience to determine the validity of a line of investigation.

Your boss comes in tomorrow and says "Hey 'phairy, we've got a problem with the network think we're getting hacked." All the evidence points to Chinese hackers, there are even posts all over Netcraft confirming it. "But," your boss continues, "my new business partner is Chinese so don't bring them into it". "I want the report on my desk pronto - and if it doesn't help fix the problem you're fired!*"

I guess you'll just buckle down and write that report?

*fudged to fit the analogy. Feel free to replace with "you can spend the next 3 years upgrading our network to block everything (except Chinese hackers). If it doesn't solve the problem you're fired!"

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Nebraska Scientists Refuse To Carry Out Climate Change-Denying Study

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