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GCHQ, European Spy Agencies Cooperate On Surveillance
jones_supa writes "Edward Snowden papers unmask that the German, French, Spanish and Swedish intelligence services have all developed methods of mass surveillance of internet and phone traffic over the past five years in close partnership with Britain's GCHQ eavesdropping agency. The bulk monitoring is carried out through direct taps into fibre optic cables and the development of covert relationships with telecommunications companies. A loose but growing eavesdropping alliance has allowed intelligence agencies from one country to cultivate ties with corporations from another to facilitate the trawling of the web. The files also make clear that GCHQ played a leading role in advising its European counterparts how to work around national laws intended to restrict the surveillance power of intelligence agencies."
Everyone knows only the USA does this stuff.
The whole "anti-terrorism" excuse is a sham. The NSA has already been providing the DEA with information about drug deals they've intercepted. We know that for a fact.
But when pressured, they can't itemize a list of the terrorist operations they've intercepted and stopped. They toss out vague numbers in the 40s after over a decade of surveillance. So even if they're exagerrating, that's only 4 per year!
From a cruelly financial perspective, it would have been far cheaper to just pay the death benefits to the families of the few people who might have died than to pay the untold billions the NSA, GCHQ, CSEC, et. al. have cost to operate.
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
When the Snowden info came out, people I know (I live in the UK) just shrugged their shoulders and said that it had been happening here for years.
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Thank you all, fuckers, for the increase of latency in my networked games.
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Good job missing the essential point. The problem is that spies agency of our countries don't consider other spy agency as their enemies but as their allies. We citizens are considered the enemy by our own spy agencies and spy agencies around the world collaborate with each other to spy on normal citizens. I's not USA vs Europe. It's spy agencies vs citizens.
The European government are outraged on being spied on. The same government, however, cooperated with the US in spying on the whole world population. The outrage in Europe, for example in Germany, only appeared after it was found out that Merkel was spied on, the same person who decided that spying on the population is no big deal.
So there are two things:
a) Spying on population: good -> done by every state, and they cooperated on that
b) Spying on governments: bad -> done by the US (the other direction is very unlikely especially for small countries like Germany or France)
I guess Iceland is not spying on its population. As it is not really necessary on that small island.
One of the things we're learning from Snowden's releases is that, apparently, many/most European spy agencies are behaving much like the US and British agencies. So will people get as outraged about the behavior of their own country's government? Will they speak as disparagingly about their own fellow "sheeple" as they like to do about Americans? Or will they maybe pay a little lip service, then get back to droning on about the NSA and idiot Americans?
It seems to me we ALL need to let our own governments know this is intolerable. And the statement that "everyone else is doing it" is no more of an excuse for a country than it is for an 11 year old.
#DeleteChrome
I've been assuming GCHQ has had their hands as dirty as they get in this ever since they detained Greenwald's partner a few months back. They were terribly concerned with seeing what exactly the Journalists had on them, so it's been reasonable to assume they've been figuring out whether they can cover this up or not. They've had months to prepare themselves for this revelation, I just hope they come up with a better plan then directing the attention to Snowden himself instead of what he's saying- that plan's getting old.
OK, we all now know that what ever we do is being watched, but what are the computers that are watching us? Could we take their abilities and address the problems in our community? Like Spell Checking. And where did I put my xBox remote?! You know, things that of a Vital Interest to me.
Americans think themselves a bit safer because the NSA is not supposed to spy on them. But what tells me that the NSA is not letting a foreign partner agency collect and evaluate the data of the Americans for them and just gets back the hits? For these hits they would have no problems getting a warrant, even from a non-secret court.
British spying is a riddle wrapped inside an Enigma.
He's exposing things we all figured were true and then some.
And the release order is also well thought out, expose the US's complete global surveillance operation, wait for EU leaders to react, and then release that those EU leaders are effectively doing the same thing.
Given the level of surveillance, which at this point makes conspiracy theorist's claims seem conservative, this seems to be THE chance for actual change.
I doubt it though, Newspeak will be provided - "We are no longer monitoring you", while the truth will be that they are. Everyone will still be.
The real question will be whether people buy into the "open" future, seek to protect their privacy, or just don't give a shit.
The real problem is that most people just won't give a shit. This is the result of an educational system that doesn't promote thinking. The masters have won the game.
BlameBillCosby.com
Not very surprisingly, the news about European countries' secret agencies cooperating with GCHQ and NSA easily explain the reluctance of said countries' politicians to really go after the US and UK for spying on them and their citizens ... after all, it's the local agencies that do the work ... too bad that too few of the citizens care ... ("I have nothing to hide")
Guess what they say is true: Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean you're not being watched ...
If the threat was as real as they say it is, the CIA's clandestine service would be the largest it's ever been since the agency was founded and Bush/Obama would have told them to take the kid gloves off in dealing with Al Qaeda. By that I mean the CIA (or MI6 here) would have been given carte blanche to go abroad and use the full playbook of nasty espionage tactics. You'd think a "Mossad times ten" had suddenly hit the major terrorist networks.
End to end encryption is the only answer here. Maybe instead of relying on server certificates, which could be compromised, do the reverse -- the client certificate is used to secure the connection. That way everyone can use a CA (or even issue their own) that they trust. It puts the client in the driver seat, so instead of just stealing Google's key (or tapping Google's fiber), they have to get yours... One might argue that they could target you with advanced malware and steal your private key, but that is no different than what could happen today if they REALLY target you.
Makes sense that if you trust no one, why do you trust their SSL certificate? Why not make them use yours. In the case of on-line purchases, you trust the server based on their certificate but the client still controls the session key. And they trust you based on your login rather than the certificate.
Shrug... Something has to be done by the users. These governments are never, ever going to stop spying.
Most of us [geeks] think the blanket surveillance is not just evil, but is also a danger to democratic governance. Yet, we are the only ones who can implement it. Certainly, politicians and attorneys wouldn't have a clue about how to do it. So why do only a a few like Snowden take a stand?
It's a big hole to pour money in. Governments are always looking for those, especially ones that no political party will argue against.
The US system, it's the only one I am familiar with. Although the other Slashdot post about the 1st grade math test will lead me to read about Singapore's approach to education. I'd love to home school but do not have the opportunity. Instead I spent 19 nights camping in 2013 with my kids, teaching them about nature and clouds.
The current US education system seems to be focused on "put the X in the correct spot".
BlameBillCosby.com
Uhm.
Germany has a population of 82 million. It's about 1/4 of the population in the US, and about 3/4 of Russias. Only US, India, China and Russia have larger economies. It is also one of the worlds most technically advanced countries. They certainly could have technical and economical capability to monitor american politicians.
It is only for political reasons they probably not are doing that, but you can be certain that they monitor the political situation and the military capabilities of all relevant parties,
We citizens are considered the enemy by our own spy agencies and spy agencies around the world collaborate with each other to spy on normal citizens.
Ordinary citizens aren't the enemy, but the enemy typically hides among them. Terrorists don't tend to live in their own private "terrorist army" barracks, they hide among ordinary citizens until they strike, which may not be in the same country in which they live. That is a crucial distinction that for some reason a lot of people seem to have a hard time understanding.
The Hamburg cell is a perfect example. They lived in Hamburg, Germany, plotting and preparing for their attack. The actual attacks they participated in were in New York, Washington DC, and Pennsylvania, in the US on 9/11/2001.
If you think the struggle in the West is between spy agencies and citizens, you fail to understand this basic and easy to understand fact. I'm curious as to why?
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
There are no surprises here.
Find a job you love, and never work a day in your life.
Iceland is spying on it's population and the laws have been adjusted to account for that several years ago.
'I' is for "Industrial. The eves dropping by the MI complex is not primarily about terrorists, or Joe Random's hydroponic shed, it's economic/diplomatic espionage. The "five eyes" (Google it) have been cooperating on economic espionage since ww2, that's not to say they don't look for terrorist, just that they can do more than one thing at once.
That communications are monitored on a large scale for this sort of information has been common knowledge since the 70's. Doesn't anyone watch Robert Redford movies anymore? It's the same thing, except now they have much more powerful tools.
BTW: We are not "struggling" in the west, we are cock of the roost in the current international pecking order. What's happening here is just another periodic introspection on the practice before everyone forgets and a new Snowden shows up in 2025 and "shocks" us all over again. International politics is still at the level of medieval feudal warlords, with the security council playing the part of the Vatican. We have a long way to go before humans can walk the Earth and not bump into political/military walls.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
There's a WW2 era agreement between the "five eyes" (US/UK/AU/Canada/France) to share intelligence and not to spy on each other. A post war "spy block" if you like. They are mainly concerned with economic/diplomatic espionage, the same thing made world headlines in the 60's and 70's when governments used it to infiltrate and disrupt anti-war groups, before that it was McCarthy vs the civil rights movement in the 50's and 60's. Have you seen the size of the FBI dossier on John Lennon or MLK, who both spent a great deal of time publically denouncing violent revolution?
Information is power and we in the west have had it in spades since 1945, the question is - what are we going to do with it in the next 70yrs?.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
You say you want a revolution
Well, you know we all wanna change the world
You tell me that it's evolution
Well, you know we all wanna change the world
But when you talk about destruction
Don't you know that you can count me out
Don't you know it's gonna be alright, alright
Don't you know it's gonna be alright
You say you got a real solution
Well, you know we'd all love to see the plan, oh yeah
You ask me for a contribution
Well, you know we're all doing what we can
But if you want money for people with minds that hate
All I can tell you is, brother, you have to wait
Don't you know it's gonna be alright
Know it's gonna be alright
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But if you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao
You ain't gonna make it with anyone, anyhow
Don't you know it's gonna be alright.....
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
Cold during EU history the "spy agencies"/police have often willingly worked for Germany (WW2) the US/UK or Soviet Union (post WW2) against their own citizens and gov over generations. :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategy_of_tension
So ordinary citizens most in the EU have a very good understanding of where their mil, gov, telco, contractors and academics loyalties can historically take them.
Junk encryption sets in, if your helping the US or UK or Russians - who else would your nations top cleared staff sell out to?
What price or 'gifts'?
The EU understands the boondoggle US mil spending, contractors cleared fast and without much background work. The same conflicted staff is now deep in their own mil/telco networks. Happily putting their political leaders on junk encryption over many years for distant foreign powers
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
Mercenaries, contractors, banks, arms sales, drug dealers, support companies, regional areas with contracts/zero bid weapons manufacturing, political types showing their leadership skills.
Then you have all the new cleared gov staff, their pay, rank and social status. The understanding of putting gov years in and getting a that mercenaries, contractors "taxpayer" wage soon.
This ongoing war on a tactic is a big win for many. The other question is the cost of the junk encryption and reality of rushed bulk clearances.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
Given that EU member state politicians have been complaining, it suggests they did not know. Are European spying agency completely out of control from their own governments?
Spying on population: good
Well, good until the population catches its own government with pants on the knees. There are laws preventing government to spy to much on its own citizen, and breaking them may have consequences (except in the US, apparently)
Given UK is part of five eyes countries that share intelligence, CGHQ should be able to hand Cameron the data collected by NSA on him.
.. and they are also word-class economical heavyweights. since they are fourth and fifth in worldwide GDP ranking (after US, China and Japan)
We understand the importance of what you say. However, there are insufficient safeguards on this process. This is 12 years later, and "we can't wait to do it right" no longer flies.
There must be oversight, uncorruptible logging, and warning bells for taps that don't have an associated warrant.
Would a Putin misuse this to spy on opponents? Yes. Why? Because there is no real tracking going on.
People still live from when the last time large tracts of Europe lived in dictatorship. If we don't want freedom to be a brief interstice between millennia of dictatorship, we have to stop this.
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
Ordinary citizens aren't the enemy, but the enemy typically hides among them.
Bullshit. This have never been true, not for Stasi, not earlier, not now. They are harrasing innocent people meaning they do consider them (potential) enemies.
Their job is to spy. Unfortunately, terrorists would rather use proper enforcement (as you wished it to happen) to hide.
If you have to find the needle, you have to go through the whole haystack.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
When will we hear about what China and Russia are doing from Snowden? That would be some very nasty information, but it would redeem his character. It might also make it a bit easier to be lenient at his eventual conviction.
(oh, and by the way, modbombing the unpleasant truth about Snowden doesn't make your case better.)
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
Intelligence operations aren't like building a new bridge in a congressional district. Chances are that most people want the bridge, welcome the jobs and spending in the district, will think highly of the congressman for getting it (if needed), many people will use the bridge when it's completed, and people might even vote for the congressman in the future. By definition the target of an intelligence operation isn't going to want it, will avoid its consequences if possible, might try to capture or kill the people involved with the operation, and might even completely avoid things associated with it in the future.
That's what Snowden is not understanding - his actions are having unintended consequences. He's taking the idea of "National security be damned" to new levels with his PR campaign. That is the precise attitude that will not only endanger US citizens, but will eventually endanger his own life - whether he runs out of information (and the NSA survives) or some private citizen gets to be the most lucky person in the world for taking him out.
To preempt the "but our current president is doing the same thing": You think that he doesn't mind damaging the NSA too? They may not be on the same page, but they certainly are within the same chapter of the same book.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
They can't go into details since they don't want to violate the same rule that Snowden is regularly breaking.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
...now, all what matters is who got how many? Was it a fair share? Did someone hoard?
The world needs to pull up these spoiled brats and give them a decent spanking.
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