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Aging Linux Kernel Community Is Looking For Younger Participants
Lemeowski writes "Time has been good to Linux and the kernel community, with the level of participation and volume of activity reaching unprecedented levels. But as core Linux kernel developers grow older, there's a very real concern about ensuring younger generations are getting involved. In this post, Open Access supporter Luis Ibanez shares some exciting stats about recent releases of the Linux kernel, but also warns that 'Maintaining the vitality of this large community does not happen spontaneously. On the contrary, it requires dedication and attention by community members on how to bring new contributors on board, and how to train them and integrate them alongside the well-established developers.'"
I'm part of one of these younger generations, and I'm honestly not interested in getting involved because I've seen how much of a raging asshole Linuz can be. He's a great maintainer, but he could be honest and give constructive criticism in less condescending ways. I'm not as experienced as he is, but that doesn't give him the right to be a complete dick in public theater.
Really don't worry. It is commercial enough and if the community just winds down, the companies will just staff the kernel developer ranks,
Get on my Lawn!
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His controverse ideas will be loved by the majority of the linux tea party crowd :)
If you want to attract new people, then you will have to bite the bullet and switch to a language that does RAII or a similar predictable resource management technique. Nobody in his right mind will write those mind-numbing goto constructs, when the compiler can do this. It doesn't have to be C++, it could be some modern form of C with classes or D.
Benies? Dental? Vaction days? Sick days? Comp time or overtime? Weekends off? All national holidays?
This semester, I am taking OS course at UMBC. ......there should be one, centralized place with all the useful materials for the beginners + it should be constantly updated.
Course is easy, material is easy. Hard part - figuring out how the fuck you should write Linux Kernel code.
Why there are no good tutorials that on how to write basic kernel code, good guides on its structure (many book sold on Amazon are outdated)
Perhaps a campus tour where the senior kernel devs can personally tell prospective developers that they are retarded and kick them in the balls.
They are too busy working 80 hour weeks to make 60k a year.
The older guys who cant get a job are bashing out the code for the kernel. For resume cred.
Nope, think I'll pass.
Maybe when Linus grows up.
Let's face it, linux isn't easy to hack now; the corporates are winning (complexity is their friend, if it was simple no-one would need a support contract). Why release a simple system, when you can bloat it with a zillion tweaks of dubious value and then charge money to keep the whole mess working?
Mind you, it's a strategy that's worked well for Microsoft (well, up till now anyway).
All your ghosts are just false positives.
Well, what do you expect? The thing is a bloated mess.
It seems like most young programmers are way more interested in developing mobile-apps than in getting yelled at, cursed at, and described as being in compromising situations involving Microsoft.
I know I've mentioned this before, but you need to consider the possibility that your software might be done.
Take TeX for example. The last stable release is 5 years old. It's done.
At some point even the OS kernel will switch from "active development" to "something people study". We studied the circuit diagrams for radio receivers, memory circuits, and even more complicated things like 8-bit ALUs. They're done. We weren't developing that stuff in school. We were just understanding it.
The Linux kernel will end up in a text book some day. People will want to understand it. Nobody will want to develop it. That's a good thing. It means that this phase of technology is approaching the done phase.
What's the next phase? If you're young that's where you should be looking.
The Linux kernel has served us reasonably well, but perhaps it's time for a new generation to create a new generation of kernel.
*assess. Bazinga.
It is just too damn big, hard and complex. Why would I want to learn the ins and outs of such a large codebase unless somebody is paying me to?
It is not like the old days when you could pick up a "... in a nutshell" book, start hacking up a driver, then get it accepted into the kernel. I don't want a three year unpaid intership while I get up to speed and gain respect in the comunity.
I'll spend my time working on my project on either a microcontroller (AVR, PIC...) or a bare-metal build on ARM.
"It works great! Throw it out and start again!"
Your idea is bad, and you should feel bad.
The problems with the Linux Kernel itself are fundamental and unfixable: too big, at a million lines, and not designed from the beginning for minimum trust of all the many components.
Not that it isn't better than the alternative with 30 million lines or more from Redmond -- but since that time, all manner of malware has been written, some of which also appears to accomplish useful work, or corrupts things that do useful work, and it is time for a system that intrinsically distrusts any programs or drivers it is running to do the right things, and ensures that the system owner can retain control.
And Linus, before you toss me some invective, tell me about the compiler optimizations that get disabled because of dependencies on dividing by zero raising exceptions in the kernel???
I actually was looking at FOSS projects to contribute to for awhile and Linux was one of my first choices.
A lot of the experienced devs will gladly tell you that they're looking for fresh breath, but they aren't so willing to offer documentation or offer assistance in starting out. I'm not expecting my hand to be held, but even some kind of informal write-up on something aside from a style guide would help, yeah?
I'd have to learn a code base developed by near-religious zealots, written in a language 20 years beyond chic only to be treated like a small minded idiot when I make mistakes? I've quit *well paying* development gigs because they met only one of those criteria. There's no way I'd go through that for free. Not for all the resume fodder on Earth.
they just want to kick you off their lawn
Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
See subject line.
but I still think it's stupid.
Well obviously you are stupid, as you are judging something which you don't know a wet shit about. Protip: subscribe to lkml and actually see how wrong you are.
CLI paste? paste.pr0.tips!
I'm quite interested in very low level programming and believe it wouldn't be too hard to be able to do it based on my current skills however for me it's more the bigger picture than fixing up something else someone else has written.
While there are plenty of merits for working with the Linux kernel including all the prior effort that has been put into it, I would rather construct something entirely new from scratch. I'm sure many people will say that's crazy however it's both the challenge that I like and I probably will enjoy it more. Of course it would be hard to catch up to anything like Linux however it's not the point of every endeavour to beat every and all competition.
Another big thing is major architectural changes that I might want to write but would never ever make it into the mainstream Linux kernel. Perhaps I no longer want the current file permission model, perhaps I don't like '/' being the root to every folder on the server or even perhaps I don't like 'root' being called 'root'. I don't want to fork the kernel at some point and just make those changes myself, these are fairly large changes that would break so many things and it's likely I won't even enjoy it any more.
Big moves like writing a new kernel from scratch can allow new insights into problems, do drastic improvements throughout the system without backwards compatibility issues and allow the next generation of features and functions to make a cleaner implementation.
If they get a lot of younger kernel devs, do we stand a chance of seeing the kernel equivalent of Unity?
when I see young people at coffeeshops, college, gay bars, etc, I almost never see linux. They often use OS X, Windows 8, even FreeBSD or Illumos. But linux? Nope. I asked one, a twink named Christian, if he ever used Linux. "Linux? That's for like old people. It's not cool like Android." I tried to correct him, to no avail. "What? Android is Google." I dropped the subject, as he could give me orgasms but no answers.
Who would have thought young people wouldn't want to be vitriolically spat at all day by people who don't shower for 3 weeks and have hair down to their waists and fingernails as long as a cats claws, who complain and whine nasally as they stuff another fucking handful of Cheetos into their gaping maw, pointing fingers and condescending to beat the band so they can fuel their egos to make up for the 30+ years they spent getting rejected by the opposite sex ( and the same sex for a generous portion of them ), only to settle for the neighbourhood whale with 300+ pounds and 3000+ cocks on her.
I always said the death of the Linux kernel would be the people themselves, not the lack of mainstream OS adoption or the mahoosive code base, but those fucking smelly, condescending, arrogant, asocial, unkind debased fucks who call themselves maintainers.
I, for one, welcome their demise with open arms.
Good fucking riddance.
The Linux kernel is not a bunch of hackers mucking around, it's a project maintained by a small army of paid professionals. The days of getting involved are long gone unless you start working for a manufacturer that needs Linux drivers.
The seconds reality of today is that the young "developers" do little more than hack on scripting languages for basic web functionality, and using the likes of jQuery. They're as far removed from OS level knowledge are you can get.
If Linux goes out of favor, then what replaces it? More Windows? A new kernel created as shareware/freeware that replaces Linux?
It just seems to me either Linux lives on, is replaced, or back to Windows. Just don't let it be a Windows only world.
The last thing I would want is a clone of the Windows UI. If I wanted Windows, I'd know where to get it.
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
Really? My impression is that he very occasionally dishes out a ration of vitriol on one of the "upper management" who has insisted on doing something against the publicly established guidelines, usually despite repeated applications of more polite dissuasion. Of course some of the more polite stuff can still seem aggressive, but there's only so many ways you can say "you are wrong and your project will not be incorporated / your attempt to shift the blame will not be tolerated" while avoiding misunderstandings across cultural boundaries.
Which is ruder? To call someone out publicly, or try to dissuade them politely and let them dedicate hundreds or thousands of hours of work to a doomed project because they thought you meant "I need to be convinced by a working example". In his position I'm sure he's run up against plenty of those.
--- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
Linux is not much of a hobbyist project anymore. It seems more of a corporate and government subsidized project. Linux is not even in the top 100 kernel contributors anymore.
The kernel will be maintained by those being funded by IBM, Red Hat, etc.
Perhaps a major part, or a major branch (experimental revisited?) needs to be handed over to the control of young blood. It'd be difficult for the old guard... young guys take risks and make more mistakes, but they bring energy and ideas. In any case an area under the control of a new generation MUST happen for a young Linux subculture to further develop, and considering the importance of community as a motivation this is overdue. The size, momentum and commercial interest in Linux will could make this less than straightforward.
The Linux kernel has served us reasonably well, but perhaps it's time for a new generation to create a new generation of kernel.
"It works great! Throw it out and start again!" Your idea is bad, and you should feel bad.
His idea is pretty much like the idea that Linus had many years ago.
The Linux kernel has served us reasonably well, but perhaps it's time for a new generation to create a new generation of kernel.
Maybe something with a microkernel architecture rather than a monolithic kernel? :-)
> Well obviously you are stupid, as you are judging something which you don't know a wet shit about
You sound mad.
And thus you prove the GP's point.
The problems with the Linux Kernel itself are fundamental and unfixable: too big, at a million lines, and not designed from the beginning for minimum trust of all the many components ... all manner of malware has been written, some of which also appears to accomplish useful work, or corrupts things that do useful work, and it is time for a system that intrinsically distrusts any programs or drivers it is running to do the right things, and ensures that the system owner can retain control.
So Tanenbaum was correct. Monolithic kernels are the past, microkernels are the future. :-)
Why would I want to put up with foul-mouthed Linus and his band of children?
1) It's haaaaard!
2) They are all meanies!
3) Waaaaaah!
Don't get me wrong, I'd have hard time living without The Linux Foundation's products, but when this year I wanted to work for The Linux Foundation in Google Summer of Code, I gave up after reading their proposals. I wanted to learn some kernel development stuff and couldn't find a single suggestion related to that. Instead, there were some higher-level projects like OpenPrinting, which I personally find totally uninteresting.
I'm young (23) and I have a degree in computer science. My favorite parts of that degree focused on systems programming and operating system design. I would love to get involved in kernel or OS development if I could find a good starting point, but so far I haven't really found a good place to start. There's info out there, but there's no natural starting point that I can find. I really just don't know where to begin, so I never do (well, recently there are other reasons, like my job, but that's why I didn't get involved as soon as I was done with my degree).
I'm actually managing an OS course for graduate students, and it's heavily based on linux (userspace and kernelspace). We do a few exercices (like writing a kernel module that computes averages), but nothing fancy. I've always been looking to propose them some projects related to kernel dev, but as I'm not a kernel hacker myself, I have clearly no idea of what seems reasonable.
So here's the deal: If you are involved on some subsystem of the linux kernel and you have something you want to get coded that can be a first experience with kernel dev, and that can be done under about 100 hours (the length of a typical project), you contact me. I'll do as much as possible as a first step filtering so that you won't get spamed. It's a win-win situation: I have great projects for my students, you get free work. For this year, it's a bit short, because projects are from September until January, but next year is ok.
Video of some good progressive thrash music
Really don't worry. It is commercial enough and if the community just winds down, the companies will just staff the kernel developer ranks.
Which companies exactly? --- and who gets to make the final decisions about the evolution of the kernel and Linux as a whole?
KDE?
I think Steam OS will get the younger generation interested in Linux.
But hopefully the younger generation will then become interested in building a brand new OS from the ground up.
When Linux was first released, it was relatively easy to break into the IT field and get directly into programming with limited experience and resources. The fact that the Linux kernel was initially created by a 15 year old kid on a home computer says much about that. My saying so doesn't lessen Linus Torvald's genius in any way, but it does underscore how those opportunities to create haven't been extended to future 15 year olds in the same manner.
Or anyone of working age. When was the last time a company hired junior admins and other flunkies specifically for the purpose of training them up to a competent level of expertise? That was common in the 90s, and is almost non-existent 20 years later. The last two companies I've worked for flat out refuse to hire junior staff and train them. Many companies refuse to future proof their IT (ops and dev) staffing in any way. This has led to a huge gap in expertise.
The final issue that was birthed out of refusing to hire inexperienced staff is all of the certification programs that arose as a result of such parsimony. Am I the only one who thinks that being able to turn on a few services *doesn't* make someone a systems administrator? I'd be more concerned about their ability to write and update their own changes to services, and to the man pages, and submitting complete work back to the relevant project- but THAT isn't (generally) taught in the cert programs, even though that will make someone a better administrator and/or developer. This just weakens expectations in the field, and severely limits a self-selected candidate pool of future kernel programmers.
It's kinda like Star Trek. Live on a starship that seems like it's constantly under attack by hostile forces, put up with with condescending superior officers and any time you think you have something to contribute, you're told to shut up. The best part? You don't even get paid. While watching the show, I've often thought to myself "Why would anyone willingly subject themselves to this crap, when they could be back on Earth doing anything they can imagine inside a holodeck?"
Star Trek analogy aside, I can see how it might not be very appealing to learn how things work under the hood, when computing has basically been distilled down to a point-and-click world of "buy apps from the app store, run apps". As for those who do have the interest and aptitude for programming, perhaps they'd rather use their skills to put a few coins in their pocket? In this economy, can you really blame them?
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DRM is like antifreeze, to the MPAA/RIAA it's sweet, to the consumers it's poison.
In fairness, look at it from Linus' perspective.
He's been running this project for DECADES and it is successful, stable and very valuable. He's made many mistakes, paid the price for them and then corrected them. He is also heavily invested in this project both privately and professionally.
Then comes the flock of green horn newbies, with the ink still wet on their diplomas (if they graduated in the first place) who make predictable stupid mistakes over and over. The SAME predictable and stupid mistakes that have been made for decades worth of newbies. Now and then one of these newbies who is not content to let his idea die so he presses the idea getting some attention perhaps. If it reaches high enough to get Linus' attention and he recognizes it as a stupid previously dismissed idea, expect him to say so without mincing words or sparing feelings. He's been down this road before and he is decidedly NOT one prone to teach. He is merely ending what he knows is a useless debate, because he is right. More times than not, he really *is* right. I wish he was a bit more diplomatic at times, but there comes a point where it's a waste of everybody's time to argue. Linus is all about *not* wasting time. (Which is why he started "GIT" by the way) I figure that he puts on the narcissist persona to save time and effort, he's just cutting to the chase, the last part of the chase, to save time.
The way to get though this as a newbie is to try your best, be respectful when rejected and don't try to push issues. Go out of your way to learn what's transpired before, research on you own, ask when you cannot find information and above all respect what the long beards have to say. That and NEVER participate a mutiny unless you are prepared to see the thing through and never work on the project again.
"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
huh? Your reply to my other post was funny, but this just doesn't make sense.
CLI paste? paste.pr0.tips!
No, no, no.. He was saying HE could do it better.
Which is still a bad idea, and HE should feel bad..
"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
See OP's step 1.
Oh really? What kernel did serve Linus reasonably well until he threw it out? I've never seen him fawn over anything Microsoft, and he definitely wasn't happy with Minix, so... [citation needed]
Actually, that would be the death sentence to Linux. Actuallyt I hope all of RH "gets hit by a bus" before Linus steps down. Otherwise is BSD time baby :-)
Well clearly you do not understand what the word "environment" means.
If someone makes a sexist, derogatory joke in the weekly programming meeting and someone is offended and complains, it's not a defense to say "well it was only one joke, in one meeting, from one person."
The problem is not the one joke. The problem is that the environment was conducive, accepting, and tolerant of the joke. Linus's abusive treatment of others is not only tolerated, but accepted, excused, and justified, both there and on other communities (like Slashdot, right now...) Because he's in a leadership position, it sets the example and tone for how others are treated...
The response to people saying "I'm not comfortable contributing" is not "stop being a baby." If it is, you don't actually care about getting people to contribute.
Please help metamoderate.
I think the tl;dr on this is Its ok that he is an asshole to people because it works for him. Awesome.
In other words, Linux is dying...
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
There, is that specific enough for you?
You have freedom to associate or not associate with a group. You have no right not to be offended. And you have no right to expect free adults to confirm to your whiny, politically correct, victimhood critical race theory politics.
it's doing after 15 years in development!
Quite frankly unless they have a beta release by the time XP support ends next year, I really doubt we'll see it ever being anything more than a 'me too' project.
No NTFS, Vista+ device drivers (with an XP userspace?!?!?), the majority of userspace actually being wine.
Point being a 'Windows Clone' has been tried multiple times over the years, from direct (wine/ReactOS), to indirect (Windows 95-alike window manager with file explorer). Development has stalled in 2/3 cases.
Food for thought.
I suppose it does work for him. Not my choice of tactics, but understandable if you think about it.
"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
Oh really? What kernel did serve Linus reasonably well until he threw it out? I've never seen him fawn over anything Microsoft, and he definitely wasn't happy with Minix, so... [citation needed]
Minix served Linus quite well, it allowed him to bootstrap development of Linux. Without Minix Linus might as well have waited for 386BSD, which predated Linux but ran into legal problems. Note that Linus has said if 386BSD had been available he may never have created Linux.
More to the point. Linus wasn't enthralled with Minix and wanted to do something different. And the GP isn't enthralled with Linux and want to do something different. Similar situations.
Ipso facto, Linus is insane!
When the project started it was easier to get involved because the code base was smaller and most people were contributing in their spare time, a few hours here and there on the weekend, while they did their real jobs that brought in money for them to live. Anybody with coding experience will tell you it's much easier to join a project where the code base is fresh rather than work on something that 2 decades worth of ideas implemented by someone who holds all the decisions leading up to why a certain subsystem is written the way it is in their head. It's that knowledge about why a certain piece of code is written the way it is, that you only glean by actually writing the code, making the mistake and learning from it. Expecting a younger person to be able to automagically have this same knowledge when they join the project is short-sighted. The other issue is that Linux may not have started as a commercially driven project, but it is a commercially driven one now. Someone in their spare time wanting to contribute to the kernel can't compete with someone being paid by Oracle to write a file system. They've got better things to do. The solution is to make it worthwhile for younger people to start working on the kernel, because at the moment the barrier for entry is high because commercial interests make it hard for young ones to learn the kernel when all the low hanging fruit is reaped by those paid to work on it, and knowledge required now is higher than it was 20 years ago.
He's said he would have probably contributed to BSD if they hadn't been tied up in court with AT&T over copyright issues at the time.
Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
I've submitted a few patches for bugs that were annoying me only to be shat upon. Not interested in attempting to interact with such unprofessional babies anymore.
I've worked on the kernel (and other low level stuff) professionally for ~10 years. I've had code submitted into the kernel. I've interacted with Linus directly, I've met him in person, etc.
Yes, on occasion he flies off the handle. It doesn't happen often, and when it does it's mostly at things that would drive many people nuts. I think he could deal with it a bit better sometimes, but most of the time it's not a big deal.
Generally when people get flamed it's not a new contributor, and it's for things that they've done wrong multiple times.
So for new people looking to contribute, go ahead. It's fun, and the quality of the code that you'll see is generally pretty high.
The guides to the kernel on amazon are outdated, but any book is going to be outdated and the places where they're outdated are exactly the places that are seeing churn and so it would be hard to keep anything updated. What the books can do is give a general overview about how things were at one point.
That, combined with looking at the kernelnewbies site, reading lwn.net/kernel, and looking at the code will give you somewhere to start.
Linus was in his early 20s and in college when he created the first version of the kernel.
Actually, those opportunities exist for every kid with access to a PC.
If you want to talk about not extending opportunities, talk about devices like iPads that are displacing general purpose PCs. That is how you actively deny such opportunities.
Fire your management. It's the only way. That said, kernel developers are a distinctly different sort from the average "systems administrator." I did that in the late-90s, early 2000s as a summer job and quickly learned that it wasn't what I wanted to do.
It strikes me that the young and (self-professed) cool crowd are only interested in shiny buttons on cloud-hosted web services. Unless you can port the Linux kernel to Javascript...
Patent litigation: A doctrine of Mutually Assured Destruction... in which everyone seems willing to push the button
It's a little thing, but annoying: I do not want to subscribe to your mailing list! The last thing I want is to see my inbox fill with conversations I don't care about - email is for one-to-one conversations, not spam like a mailing list. Create an online forum already, this ain't the 90's any more. Push content is not cool; I'll read the posts when I want to read them, not when you decide to push them into my mailbox. With LKML the additional annoyance is the sheer volume of the thing, turning it into pure spam.
Frankly, the younger generation has very thin skins. When you post anything online, be it an OSS project or a simple forum post, people will hate you. Some will hate you for good reasons, others will hate you for stupid reasons, and everyone else will hate you for no reason at all. Whenever I search for my project's name, I pretty much expect it these days. Gee, my project is not 100% C++ standard compliant. Gee, my project has a class with an unusual requirement that people consider unprintably unreasonable. Gee, my project is useless and what an arrogant asshole I am for working on it.
After a while, you stop caring. You have to, or you'll never get any work done. Without thick skin, you can't do anything online, because otherwise there are just so many jerks out there, they will drive you insane. Yes, you can complain about it. If you do, you'll get flamed. No, you can't change how people behave, it's just their nature. Adjust your spam filters and asbestos suits and move on. Getting "offended" is the most idiotic thing in the world; it accomplishes nothing and hurts only you. So stop it already!
I'm part of one of these younger generations, and I'm honestly not interested in getting involved because I've seen how much of a raging asshole Linuz can be. He's a great maintainer, but he could be honest and give constructive criticism in less condescending ways. I'm not as experienced as he is, but that doesn't give him the right to be a complete dick in public theater.
I've been in the Linux scene very early, and I've watched contributors come and go
The one thing that I've observed is that it's kinda generation gap
The older crop (age 40+) were the ones who like to take on challenges - and even when they have been shouted down, they still come back again and again, with better and better code implementation, to prove others wrong
The younger crop (age 35 or younger), on the other hand, can't stand people criticizing their code
They seem to think that since it's their code and they have contributed it FREE OF CHARGE others must be happy to accept them as is
What has transpired in the Linux Kernel scene reflects what is going on in the society at large, as well
The young uns can't stand criticism because they think they are too good to be criticized
Those old farts, on the other hand, don't mind criticism, and in fact, many actually welcome criticisms, for criticism only makes them tougher
I know, it's too much a generalization - as there are exceptions - but at least that's from my own observation
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
No, no, no.. He was saying HE could do it better. Which is still a bad idea, and HE should feel bad..
Where did "he" say any such thing?
"The Linux kernel has served us reasonably well, but perhaps it's time for a new generation to create a new generation of kernel."
Why? The article asserts that the Linux kernel project has a problem attracting new developers. And a lot of comments here assert that this problem is due to Linus' personality traits. If this is indeed so, it's up to him to change or watch his accomplishments go down in flames.
Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.
Web2.0 and HTML5 support.
350 built in frameworks.
Modules written in Ruby, Python and Javascript.
An appstore.
A touch screen interface.
Twitter, facebook, reddit etc. etc. integration.
Seriously, we need to start tying down people by their beards soon.
I seriously hope YOU are a troll... Otherwise, faith in humanity decreased.
"Science can amuse and fascinate us all, but it is engineering that changes the world. " - Asimov.
Nope. Anyone with two brain cells know of the huge amount of damage those two trolls have caused. The future is gone for Linux since newer people who would be interested, is not due to those ... idiots to say the least.
Not everybody is dumb enough to enjoy abuse.
Apparently you weren't aware of the fact that they are the founders and primary intitial code contributors for the Linux and GNU projects respectively. Neither project would even exist without them. The reason you're not even going to be taken seriously by people who agree with the principle of your statement is that what you just said is akin to saying something like "Christianity would have been so much better if Jesus had never gotten involved" or "orbital trajectories would be so much easier to establish if it weren't for all the gravity."
I'm just stating this for the benefit of the rest of the crowd. I'm pretty sure you're the one trolling here too. Nobody could be this clueless and opinionated.
The fact that the Linux kernel was initially created by a 15 year old kid on a home computer says much about that.
Linus Torvalds was born in 1969. The Linux Kernel project began in 1991. He was not 15.
Apparently, I am aware of that fact. Apparently, your assumptions are incorrect. And apparently, you misread what I posted. Creating their respective works do not make them any less abusive. Opinionated? Your perspective, of course. Clueless. The only person proven wrong was you. As for trolling ... Try reading the post you supposedly replied to.
My last few remaining microns of sympathy for Linux, evaporated not long ago when I read Lennart Poettering encouraging everyone around him, to throw POSIX under the bus. I'm aware that Linux developers have viewed the system's relationship with older UNIX, in roughly the same manner as a venereal disease since probably 2000; in a sense, it surprised me that it took that long for someone to actually come out and say it openly.
Linux has completely gone to shit; and not in the "yes it causes me to rage, but I'm still putting up with it," sense, but the "I now feel so much contempt and disgust for it that I've washed my hands, and can no longer be remotely bothered," sense.
Linux's developers these days, are a bunch of ivory tower elitists, who in reality have no idea what they are doing, but who have the attitude that everyone else using the system can just shut up and take what they are given, and if the rest of us don't like it, then that is just too damn bad. Lennart Poettering, again, is the main offender when it comes to this sort of thinking, but it has also always characterised the GNOME developers as well.
GNOME should have been recognised as a mess, and rewritten from scratch, before Canonical got hold of it. The problem there is that you have people who are using Microsoft Windows as their template, and so they think that making everything opaque and hard welded together, is somehow the "professional," way to do things. Graphical user interfaces don't *need* to be a bloated pile of shit; it's just that Windows is, and Linux people now are determined to copy Windows.
I've been learning about FORTH, recently; and about the idea of (in languages which are designed for it, at least) writing one function per file, and having said function consist of no more than 500 bytes each. FORTH was the product of an era in which programmers actually knew what they were doing; unlike today, when computer science graduates emerge from university with their heads densely packed full of bovine fecal matter, such as the idea that programs should be as long and complex as possible, rather than short and simple.
But there's no point. There's no point arguing with any of you. You'll just mod me down, and tell me that Ubuntu is great, and GNOME is superb, and Poettering is a genius. So go ahead. Have fun.
I find the "women this" and "women that" extremely off-putting. I don't want fucking women with their feminist drama. I want programmers, gender is irrelevant.
When Linux was first released, it was relatively easy to break into the IT field and get directly into programming with limited experience and resources. The fact that the Linux kernel was initially created by a 15 year old kid on a home computer says much about that. My saying so doesn't lessen Linus Torvald's genius in any way [...]
It does lessen his age considerably, however.
The fact that the Linux kernel was initially created by a 15 year old kid on a home computer says much about that
Linus Torvalds was born in 1969. The initial Linux kernel announcement was in 1991. So your fact is no fact at all. At that time, Linus was at the university, studying Computer Science.
those opportunities to create haven't been extended to future 15 year olds
The Linux Kernel does not need teenagers, even if they are welcome if they know how to do things. No, what it needs is competent software *engineers*. People that know their shit and can do a good job.
I have no idea where did you took that notion that Linux is some kind of play-school. It's not. It's deadly serious business (literally, there are lives that depend on it).
Step 1: Make a very public scene whenever someone does something slightly dumb. Be sure to use horrible names and as much profanity as possible.
Well my reply was not "very public" (didn't make a /. story, anyway), and OPs claim wasn't "slightly" dumb. Noone was called "horrible names" and the amount of profanity could double and it would still be harmless.
;)
Other than that, yeah, totally applies
CLI paste? paste.pr0.tips!
Oh, so you're then suggesting if they were just polite and unobtrusive quiet little nerds easily swept under the rug by big players who deserve the glory more than there would even be a FOSS movement today of this caliber, or even at all? I assure you I get your point entirely, but still completely disagree with you. How does that make you feel?
My question has always been "how do I start?" - I was looking at a list of open-source software needs and most were ridiculous ones like implement decades-old commercial packages from scratch or solve hard AI problems no one has ever solved. I looked at writing documentation, but couldn't even find where to begin. Each project is different in the doc formats they use, and most doc needs are totally abstruse. I don't know Jython internals or anything. I'm just a casual user. How do I use my technical writing skills?
How do I start on the kernel? I have read Love's book, but not really done anything because these days kernels are maintained by distributions and I don't even have to build my own kernel anymore. I know C, but I'm rusty because no one really uses C any more for applications programming. Most C use seems to be embedded systems, something I'm not trained to work with so I don't do it. So my C skills have languished, because I get paid to write Java.
I just walked away from open source, shaking my head, not knowing how to even begin contributing to open source. No wonder so many people start new projects from scratch rather than trying to figure out ones that already exist.
The open-source world needs a roadmap for new people, like the old Java API roadmaps Sun used to have in their tutorials. (Do they still have those?) What's the first step? How do you get started? Who needs your skills? Currently there's just nothing like that, and open source is impenetrable.
You confuse me with someone who thinks Linus' actions are justified. I don't. Where I try to understand *why* he does this, it doesn't mean I agree with the tactics he uses.
So Why look at this from his perspective? In order to try and understand how best to deal with him. Life is full of people with personality ticks that are going to rub you the wrong way. Successfully dealing with difficult people will require self control and understanding of what motivates them and adapting your actions accordingly. It's how life works, or doesn't..
"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
Your post does not make any sense. Do most people in the FOSS movement lack comprehension?
One of us does, that's for sure...
Exactly.
My takeaway from all this is that the kernel community and its developers is facing the same problems as Wikipedia and its editors, for about the same reasons.
Younger people are too busy making Minecraft and Terraria clones, or ripping off Nintendo copyright to do any honest work.
The best way to deal with people who can't behave is to ask if you actually have to deal with them, and if the answer is "no", not do so. And, apparently, new developers are doing this very analysis, which then led to this article.
Life is full of nice, well-adjusted people. Why waste it dealing with someone who isn't? Let natural selection do it instead: Software projects that drive new people away die. Those that draw them in survive and grow. It's evolution in action.
Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.
Choosing not to play is indeed a valid option. Choosing to put up with it can be rewarding though.
It's your call.
"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
I want that Linux check my code, piss on it and tell me that I am stupid in a public newsletter. I just did abandon an open source project I was working as hobby after their maintainers started to do this with us. If I work for free I want respect, when I get payed then you can add the foul words since I am rented to you.
No, see, the thing is, your feelings are supposed to be your responsibility, not the group's.
It is, at a minimum, the group's responsibility if they are community of VOLUNTEERS are trying to attract new members, to not be a bunch of assholes to each other.
Your extremely hostile, nasty, aggressive, ignorant, threatened response perfectly demonstrates the issues we're talking about. Also: stop narcissistically blaming everyone around you for how they react to the way you act towards them.
Please help metamoderate.