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The Second Operating System Hiding In Every Mobile Phone

Jah-Wren Ryel writes "Every smartphone or other device with mobile communications capability (e.g. 3G or LTE) actually runs not one, but two operating systems. Aside from the operating system that we as end-users see (Android, iOS, PalmOS), it also runs a small operating system that manages everything related to radio. So, we have a complete operating system, running on an ARM processor, without any exploit mitigation (or only very little of it), which automatically trusts every instruction, piece of code, or data it receives from the base station you're connected to. What could possibly go wrong?"

352 comments

  1. depends... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    If you only use stuff for web browsing or emails over HTTPS - nothing.(well, remote probability of warning that says that something actively intercepts SSL communication). Also I am guessing that SIM card data may also become compromised.
    For the rest of it - well... Intercepted phone calls/SMS, etc.

    Those come to mind.

    1. Re:depends... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you only use stuff for web browsing or emails over HTTPS - nothing.(well, remote probability of warning that says that something actively intercepts SSL communication).

      HTTPS does no good on hardware where baseband has direct access to the applications memory space.

    2. Re: depends... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not true when the base band CPU and application CPU share RAM.

  2. Firmware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    In the real world, this is called Firmware.

    1. Re:Firmware by Larzdk · · Score: 1

      It actually says so in the article.. "This operating system is stored in firmware"

    2. Re:Firmware by aliquis · · Score: 1

      In the real world it's called magic.

    3. Re:Firmware by SomeoneFromBelgium · · Score: 0

      Oh, it's firmware. That's a relief. Firmware sounds reassuring, right?? But firmware gets copied to ram. And can be exploited just like any other software. Of course the alarmist "OMG look what I found here" tone of the article is not conductive to it being taken seriously, but the treat is still there...

    4. Re:Firmware by emj · · Score: 4, Funny

      Yeah kind of makes all of those hand waving sci-fi hacking tools look plausible.

      A secure computer is a computer without power, network and Qualcomm baseband chips.

    5. Re:Firmware by fisted · · Score: 1

      But firmware gets copied to ram.

      What? One of the last MCUs I worked with didn't have any RAM whatsoever, just saying. Of the numerous others which had RAM, none would 'copy code there' in x86-fashion.

    6. Re:Firmware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But firmware gets copied to ram.

      Not necessarily.

      Some simple devices even do not have RAM: the software is in ROM and the data is in the registers.

      It is also possible that the software stays in ROM and that only the data is in RAM.

      Copying the ROM into RAM is usually done for speed purposes.

      In case of cell phones, I don't know if the firmware gets copied to RAM, but you cannot just assume it like that.

    7. Re:Firmware by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      sure it gets if it's a single chip, single core arm core system... of smartphones I dunno if there's been any of those since symbians(on which you could do it, saved nokia a bundle).

      not so sure where they got the "trusts everything from the network", I guess to make the article more jizzy.

      maybe next week an article about exploitable dac(in theory).

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    8. Re:Firmware by dos1 · · Score: 3, Informative

      It's not "stored in firmware". The described OS *is* a firmware.

    9. Re:Firmware by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      You're talking about mighty slow processors, even by embedded standards (where you don't have $50 and 10W to run the GUI for some stupid game). Flash access is slow. I know execution direct from Flash access is used for same basic 8-bit, and maybe low-end 16-bit parts, but I can't remember the last time I used something that didn't start by copying the Flash code to RAM. In fact, serial Flash is quite common for storing code.

    10. Re:Firmware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As already stated, firmware isn't the OS.

      Operating Systems are like Linux kernel, XNU, NT, Minix or HURD. About a few megabytes software what bootloader (like GRUB example) starts after firmware has started bootloader. After OS has loaded to RAM, it checks the system and takes control of it (firmware has no control since then, only hardware own machine code does what discuss to OS using driver for OS).

      Machine code > firmware > bootloader > OS > Mother process (like INIT) > System Services (like apache, xorg etc) > system software (like graphical user interfaces) > applications (like web browsers, music players etc).

    11. Re:Firmware by kimvette · · Score: 3, Funny

      Soo many times I've wished computers ran on magic.

      I wish computers ran on magic because then when someone whose expertise way outside of what I do requests an explanation and struggles with the details but is insistent upon knowing them, I could say ", because magic" then they would accept that and say "I see."

      --
      The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
    12. Re:Firmware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've worked on ARM v5 hardware with code running from Flash. Not slow at all at the clock speed we used.

    13. Re:Firmware by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      "Any sufficient level of technology is indistinguishable from magic" - Author C. Clarke

      It is magic, to most people.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    14. Re:Firmware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In Cupertino, it's called magic.

      FTFY

    15. Re:Firmware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know, I think it is magic.

      We are drawing some figures on a rock (which is basically what silicon lithography is), and stuff happens when you hook to rock up to electricity.

    16. Re:Firmware by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      I'm surprised - what clock speed? How many cycles for Flash access?

    17. Re:Firmware by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      Also, I presume there's a code cache? That could make direct Flash access tolerable.

    18. Re:Firmware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2

      So? Firmware vs. software is a distinction based on the storage medium. The point of the article is that there is a second OS in all mobile phones which has not gotten enough attention so far. That second OS runs on the "baseband processor", which is the processor that performs all the radio interface functions that are timing-critical. This OS is usually riddled with bugs, as researchers have found when they fuzzed the baseband processor from the network side. There's also an open source baseband implementation called Osmocom. Besides, there's a third OS and processor in every GSM phone: The SIM. The subscriber identity module is a smart card with embedded processor and OS, running independently of the other processors in the phone. Most phones trust everything the SIM tells them, and that's a completely opaque system controlled by the network operator. The SIM can send and receive SMS messages and upload programs into the phone and have the main processor execute them.

    19. Re:Firmware by unixisc · · Score: 1

      Only a portion of firmware that needs frequent updating would need to be copied to RAM. Otherwise the flash that's there is typically NOR flash, as opposed to NAND flash, and has read times comparable (order of magnitude wise) to SRAM. So if all that's needed is a one time write, then that's doable using the drivers that would update the flash. But yeah, if firmware has to be copied to RAM, it could well get exploited.

    20. Re:Firmware by unixisc · · Score: 1

      If you are talking NOR flash, 70ns is typically the read access time for one data location. Do the math. More modern flash support modes like page & burst mode operations, in which case it's even better. If you're talking about NAND flash, then yeah, it can be really slow.

    21. Re:Firmware by kimvette · · Score: 1

      So you're saying that chip design could be done by minecraft players?

      I ought to get to work mining redstone - I could make a fortune! ;)

      --
      The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
    22. Re:Firmware by unixisc · · Score: 1

      If the OS is a microkernel like Minix or QNX, can't it be fitted in a NOR flash, and thereby be a part of the firmware?

    23. Re:Firmware by Peter+Simpson · · Score: 1

      Real Time Operating System - RTOS

    24. Re:Firmware by marcosdumay · · Score: 1

      It's not just drawing. We also throw gases at the rocks, in high temperature.

    25. Re:Firmware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ITYM - Arthur C. Clarke

    26. Re:Firmware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also you could put wards on them

    27. Re:Firmware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A secure computer is a computer without power, network and Qualcomm baseband chips.

      You forgot the users. A really secure computer will not have any users.

    28. Re:Firmware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What makes you think that firmware can't be exploited unless it's copied to RAM? Look up "Return Oriented Programming".

    29. Re:Firmware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      ARM chip with _embedded_ FLASH memory need not be slow as they can have wider parallel bus inside the processor bus than an external FLASH chip.
      They can easily be 256kBytes (and possibly 512kBytes) range, more than enough to run a slim embedded RTOS.

    30. Re:Firmware by girlintraining · · Score: 2

      In the real world, this is called Firmware.

      Firmware used to be low-level controllers that only handled a small number of instructions related to a specific task; Like a hard drive. All it needed to do was process requests for data and a few other basic operations, and so it was relatively simple. Firmware today though doesn't really meet that definition -- due to the lower costs of FPGAs and similar, these controllers are now trivially reprogrammable and because the original designers didn't consider the hardware to be an attack vector, it has full access to everything, like say, the PCI bus; It can talk directly to the CPU and queue instructions, change the stacks, alter memory, and more.

      Modern OS' aren't designed with this in mind; They expect an attack from the 'higher' layers -- ie, userspace. They don't expect an attack against the kernel to come from the hardware itself.

      --
      #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    31. Re:Firmware by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Hmm, they need to pay me more then.

    32. Re:Firmware by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Running directly from Flash is done on many 32-bit chips! Sometimes parts are in RAM for speed or the bootloader. But I'm working on a product today that runs from Flash because the hardware designers drastically cut back on RAM to save a few pennies. And Flash was not slower than off-chip RAM.

    33. Re:Firmware by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Some systems have the same access speed for external RAM as for Flash. No caching as well, as ARM7 is common. Generally faster memory is on-chip where the CPU can access it in one clock cycle but it's a limited resource. Often the external bus may be only 16-bits, so two accesses to read a word is typical (in ARM7 using Thumb mode means one cycle to read the next instruction, but 2 cycles per instruction for ARM mode).

    34. Re:Firmware by sjames · · Score: 1

      Sort of, but it's firmware for a different processor than the one that runs the OS. Many people (especially non-techs) don't realize that there even is a second processor running on their phone.

      I suppose the closest analogy would be the BMC on a server. If THAT get's hacked, you're well and thoroughly screwed.

    35. Re:Firmware by sjames · · Score: 1

      If the code is tight enough, it could conceivably run from the cache.

    36. Re:Firmware by unixisc · · Score: 1

      This technique is known as XIP (Execute In Place) and is essentially the CPU running directly off the flash instead of a RAM. It is more common in cases where the flash supports page or burst mode access

    37. Re:Firmware by unixisc · · Score: 1

      Precisely! Also, w/ the usage of not just FPGAs, but also the increase in flash memory density as well as improved techniques used to implement XIP in flash, it is now easier to fit an OS within flash itself. This could be in the form of having just the kernel reside on the flash - made easier if the kernel in question is a microkernel, such as QNX. Or it could even be the entire OS itself, maybe barring some frequently updated areas in userspace.

    38. Re:Firmware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I tell people it is magic. There is a magic blue smoke that makes it all happen, if you fry your computer you can see the magic smoke escape.

    39. Re:Firmware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      100 MHz, single-cyle (zero wait-state) flash access.
      http://www2.renesas.eu/_pdf/R01CL0015ED0200.PDF

    40. Re:Firmware by EETech1 · · Score: 1

      ATTiny15 FTW!

      I have 6 products in high volume production that use the Tiny15, and it is amazing what you can do with 512 instructions, and just the CPU registers.

      They are all written in assembly, and I can honestly say that they are bug free! I know every instruction that's executed, and optimized every routine by hand for either speed or efficiency when it was needed.

      It's satisfying to have a complete understanding of what's going on, and not have several levels of abstraction between what you wrote, and what the CPU is doing.

      What's ramless CPU are you using?

    41. Re:Firmware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Any sufficient level of technology is indistinguishable from magic" - Author C. Clarke

      You butchered that, it's:

      "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

    42. Re:Firmware by Sun · · Score: 1

      The STR912 has an ARM9 based 32 bit CPU, and, depending on precise model, about 96KB of flash and about 48KB of RAM. Running all of the code from RAM is simply impossible.

      So, no, this is very far from limited to 16bit and old. Newer versions (the STR912 is, after all, around 6 years old) have, as far as I know, similar flash/ram ratio.

      Shachar

    43. Re:Firmware by fisted · · Score: 1

      [...] and I can honestly say that they are bug free!

      That's a bold claim. Turns out whoever makes it is doomed to have at least one bug in the software they're talking about.

      What's ramless CPU are you using?

      It was an attiny too, tiny13. No high-volume or anything, though

    44. Re:Firmware by SomeoneFromBelgium · · Score: 1

      And what with the execution stack. I'm not an expert but I thought that was allways in RAM and could be overwritten.
      I don't know how realistic this attack vector is. I have no idea, if e.g.overwriting the address pointer would allow a hacker to jump to some malicious code in e.g. flash of maybe even in the RAM of the generic OS (adroid or whatever...). Is that even physically possible?
      So my point was: I think the article's tone is a bit alarmistic but there seems to be an potential attack vector here...

    45. Re:Firmware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually I was told it was magic smoke and if the magic smoke ever leaked out it would stop working - maybe they were referring to a tesla

    46. Re:Firmware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are processors that don't have RAM except for the CPU registers, so no stack either (no return addresses, no saving of register values on interrupts, etc.). That said, baseband processors are not that kind of processor.

    47. Re:Firmware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Any sufficient level of technology is indistinguishable from magic" - Author C. Clarke

      It is magic, to most people.

      Any technology which is distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.

    48. Re:Firmware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I say, "It runs on magic smoke, if you let the smoke out, it doesn't work anymore".

  3. Conspiracy by BreakBad · · Score: 4, Funny

    Every thinks a virus will cause the Zombie Apocalypse, when in truth it will be a broadcast of "Never gonna let you down" on infinite loop. Rick is Chinese...didn't you know? The same people who make these 'Cell' phones. Cell.....terrorist cells! OMG it all makes sense now.

    1. Re:Conspiracy by SomeoneFromBelgium · · Score: 2

      Every thinks a virus will cause the Zombie Apocalypse, when in truth it will be a broadcast of "Never gonna let you down" on infinite loop.

      Which is actually worse.

    2. Re:Conspiracy by GrumpySteen · · Score: 1

      Every thinks a virus will cause the Zombie Apocalypse

      You're out of date. We've moved on to the idea that it will be a fungus from the Cordyceps genus.

    3. Re:Conspiracy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Warning: Your brain has been hacked by psiko loozers. Please initiate neuron wipe process immediately and reinstall personality from scratch. Thank you for your cooperation, netizen!

    4. Re:Conspiracy by clickclickdrone · · Score: 3, Funny

      when in truth it will be a broadcast of "Never gonna let you down" on infinite loop. Rick is Chinese...didn't you know?

      His real name is Rick Shaw.

      --
      I want a list of atrocities done in your name - Recoil
    5. Re:Conspiracy by The+Other+White+Meat · · Score: 1

      I assume you mean this Rick Shaw:

      http://www.pbase.com/donboyd/memories_rickshaw

      --

      --- Generation X: The first generation to have SIG lines inferior to their parents... ---
    6. Re:Conspiracy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      rickshaws were from japan, and only enjoyed popularity until the government decided they represented oppression of the working class.

      you see a handful here and there in tourist areas, but pedal / person powered ones are pretty much a thing of the 1920s.

  4. Risk Mitigation by LF11 · · Score: 1, Insightful

    So this basically means that even if the NSA is *NOT* spying on everyone's personal lives by surreptitiously turning on our cameras and microphones, then some 2-bit drug cartel with a couple crackers and an eBay account can? No thanks.

    In my house, we are putting in a charging station by the front door, where we will leave all phones. Guests will be cordially invited to leave their cell phones at the door, feel free to pick up a free charge for the ride home.

    In the words of a Google employee, "Fuck these guys."

    1. Re:Risk Mitigation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What.

    2. Re:Risk Mitigation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My thought as well... that whole post makes no sense.

    3. Re:Risk Mitigation by atom1c · · Score: 1

      The same firmware concept applies to everything electronic.

      Good luck with that!

    4. Re:Risk Mitigation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Really, how paranoid can you get? The radio is there to move data. It kinda HAS to trust the base tower it's communicating with. The system won't work if it doesn't. Yeah, you can imagine all kinds of secure ways to ensure you are talking with a legal base station, but in the end you can't trust those either, because the evil goverment can just ask the operator to give them everything releted to you. Criminals running a cell tower? Heh, I guess it's possible in theory. In practice it's damn amazing even the current ones work as well as they do. Also, it's the radio, it doesn't have access to your phones data or mic or camera. Will be way easier and cheaper to bug your house than to use the modem to break in to your phone. Going through the radio part is like breaking into a house through the hole where cables go in, while the front door is open, or made of thin paper (you know, the main processor, running iOS, android, or whatever).

    5. Re:Risk Mitigation by onyxruby · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      In your house do you also provide the tinfoil hats when you drop off the cell phones? You could have a nick little rack setup with tinfoil hats on the bottom and chargers on the bottom. Of course your guest have to trust /you/ not to have chargers that tap their cell phones while they are in use. So many trust issues and so many conspiracies, where do you begin?

    6. Re:Risk Mitigation by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      I don't think they're talking about security from the government, because you're right. They can get into the base stations because the carriers are in bed with them. Private efforts might be another story. It does seem like a roundabout and unlikely vector to get to anything useful though, like the data on your cell phone. Possible (though not necessarily likely) reasons for private parties to monitor some of your over-the-air stuff? Put a spoof base station near Wall Street and listen in. That info would be worth a fortune. Even the possibility of doing that though depends heavily on the security of the over-the-air protocols, which I'm not familiar with at any layer above the MAC and Phy.

    7. Re:Risk Mitigation by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      Physical security of your cell is important too, lest the Mossad put a bomb in it.

    8. Re:Risk Mitigation by Lothsahn · · Score: 1

      We're getting to the point that, if given the choice between a random stranger and the NSA, I'd trust the stranger more.

      --
      -=Lothsahn=-
    9. Re:Risk Mitigation by LF11 · · Score: 1

      It does apply to everything electronic, but not everything has camera AND microphone AND gps AND permanent attachment to the Internet. The only other electronics I would be concerned about would be tablets and possibly laptops (might end up with charging stations for those, too).

      Can you think of anything else that should be isolated? WiFi-enabled LED lights and WiFi access points are potential contenders, but I am choosing not to worry about those until actual evidence of their exploitation pops up.

    10. Re:Risk Mitigation by LF11 · · Score: 1

      No, but I provide aluminum foil if anyone wants to make their own.

      I am think to frame this as an etiquette issue. We take our shoes off at the door to avoid tracking dirt and the occasional dogshit through the house. Similarly, we leave our cellphones at the door so as to more fully engage with each other in the tranquility of a peaceful home ... and leave the spy shit at the door.

    11. Re:Risk Mitigation by LF11 · · Score: 1

      I already do. For one, most strangers are honest, law-abiding people.

    12. Re:Risk Mitigation by LF11 · · Score: 1

      While true, I am rather less concerned about that.

      Although, now that you mention it, I wonder if the firmware could be hacked so as to cause a fault in the battery and cause it to catch fire or explode?

    13. Re:Risk Mitigation by alen · · Score: 1

      yes, im sure you can install a cell tower on any building in NYC and no one will notice. not even the building management

    14. Re:Risk Mitigation by jalopezp · · Score: 1

      Not everything electronic has a microphone and a camera and your access details for online banking. Personally, I would not be enormously concerned if anyone was trying to access my toaster, but mobile phones are a little more sensitive.

    15. Re:Risk Mitigation by LF11 · · Score: 1

      The problem is if the firmware can be hacked over-the-air to turn on the microphone and camera at will. Is this possible? I have always assumed not. However, if the firmware is plagued with security holes, it becomes rather more likely that it is possible.

      Google, of course, makes this extremely difficult to do through Android. They do not control the underlying firmware, however.

    16. Re:Risk Mitigation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      the firmware could be hacked so as to cause a fault in the battery and cause it to catch fire

      No ...

      Well, not until I get the one last bug out of the required hack.

      ----

      I can't find the "Post Humously" tickbox

    17. Re:Risk Mitigation by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      Put it in an office, and leave the antenna behind the curtains. Base stations aren't that big or power hungry these days. I'm not saying this is likely, but it is possible.

    18. Re:Risk Mitigation by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      Good point. Some lithium battery chemistry's seem to eliminate the need for separate explosives.

    19. Re:Risk Mitigation by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      Considering the way the law is interpreted these days, honest is the far more important criterion.

    20. Re:Risk Mitigation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We're getting to the point that, if given the choice between a random stranger and the NSA, I'd trust the stranger more.

      How do you know he is not from NSA?

    21. Re:Risk Mitigation by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      I couldn't care less whether I can "trust" the cell tower. What I care about is ensuring that the code running on the radio's processor can't eavesdrop on the code that's running on the phone's main processor (or any of the other devices attached to it).

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    22. Re:Risk Mitigation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Guests will be cordially invited to leave their cell phones at the door,

      You know, if you were more engaging/entertaining, you wouldn't have to resort to such actions. I'm far from top-shelf entertainment but I have ZERO problems with folks using their phones when visiting.

      So, whats next on your list... putting up a Faraday cage inside the walls of the house? Since the Jedi Force isn't real... how about mandatory drugging of visitors so they have less wants and make them malleable and open to suggestion.

      From your post, I'm pretty sure I can put the finger one WHY you need to confiscate people's phones, and it isn't about privacy.... ummm, unless your visitors are part of your perpetual BDSM orgy... hmmmm... maybe I know why my parties are better now.

    23. Re:Risk Mitigation by Rob+the+Bold · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What.

      I'm pretty sure this is all hypothetical. Or at least the "guests" part.

      --
      I am not a crackpot.
    24. Re:Risk Mitigation by NatasRevol · · Score: 1

      Plus it can cook your lunch before 10AM!

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    25. Re:Risk Mitigation by LF11 · · Score: 1

      Sorry, I know you were playing on my seeming paranoia, I apologize for spreading it... :/

    26. Re:Risk Mitigation by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      AND permanent attachment to the Internet

      Not so much, there is always Airplane Mode

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    27. Re:Risk Mitigation by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      That's breakfast.

    28. Re:Risk Mitigation by NatasRevol · · Score: 1

      Wake up earlier, slackass!

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    29. Re:Risk Mitigation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I suspect the "guests" are unwilling.

    30. Re: Risk Mitigation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm betting you could wheel a low-powered station disguised as a suitcase through an airport and compromise A LOT of phones, even if the range was only about a dozen meters or so.

    31. Re:Risk Mitigation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually I think he has a very valid point. Not all problems have technological solutions. Sometimes (very often) a change in social attitudes and habits is much more effective.

      If every cellphone bearer is treated as something akin to a "glasshole" then the problem of "spying phones" will be largely mitigated. "Leave your phone at the door" could become a new accepted norm.

      I'm not saying this is likely, but it is worth considering because a technical fix ain't gonna happen. Said technical fix could only be implemented by our corporate overlords, who have no incentive to do so.

    32. Re:Risk Mitigation by LF11 · · Score: 1

      Not so much; airplane mode does not disable camera or microphone. Furthermore, why should you trust airplane mode? The concern is that malicious software could pre-empt the users' instructions; wouldn't Airplane Mode potentially fall into this situation as well?

      Your trust is misplaced, I think?

    33. Re:Risk Mitigation by sjames · · Score: 1

      They absolutely positively do NOT have to trust the base station completely. They have to trust it to route the call as requested and they have to trust that the incoming calls are what the base station says they are. That's it.

      They don't have to trust it to update the firmware or issue arbitrary commands such as activating the microphone or turning the camera on.

      And yes, the radio DOES typically have access to the rest of the phone. In many phones, the radio firmware is used to manage the boot process and enforce signatures on the main CPUs OS. That's why you sometimes need to patch the radio before you can root an Android phone. It is especially insidious since it effectively runs at ring -1. It can patch the OS in memory and there's nothing the user CPU can do about it. Even if you did install AV software in the OS, the radio virus would be undetectable.

    34. Re: Risk Mitigation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Microphone is controlled by baseband (at least in some instances).

    35. Re:Risk Mitigation by bingoUV · · Score: 1

      How can you trust a microwave oven to not have cameras, microphones, GPS and a satellite internet access?

      --
      Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
    36. Re:Risk Mitigation by LF11 · · Score: 1

      You can't, but it's expensive to put all that stuff in. Worthwhile for a specific target, not for the rest of us.

    37. Re:Risk Mitigation by bingoUV · · Score: 1

      Have you any idea how much is the annual budget of the security theatre? No one has, which is the point.

      --
      Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
    38. Re:Risk Mitigation by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      You can get get away with anything if you arrive in a white van during daylight wearing overalls and carrying a clipboard.

      Especially if there's already one on the building. Maintenance, see. On the blink again, innit guv'nor?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    39. Re:Risk Mitigation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      + 5

    40. Re:Risk Mitigation by behrooz0az · · Score: 1

      How about we all settle on brunch?

      --
      Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion. -- Spazmania (174582)
  5. Old silent SIM firmware by pieterh · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The SIM firmware runs silently and in the background and by some reports, even when the phone is switched off, it continues to slowly ping cell towers, making your phone trackable unless you remove the battery.

    1. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      That is why it is getting increasingly tough to find a phone with a replaceable battery.

    2. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Surely a well designed chip can use the power of the radiowaves already in the air, negating the need for a battery...

    3. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Citation needed.

    4. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by zaax · · Score: 0

      Nope off is off - at least on my android.
      Who told you that one?

    5. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by dotancohen · · Score: 3, Informative

      Surely a well designed chip can use the power of the radiowaves already in the air, negating the need for a battery...

      That is exactly how RFID works. However, RFID fields are much stronger and the receiver is much closer.

      The phone could probably use the power of the radiowaves in the air to do very low power things like perhaps change an e-ink display slightly. There is no way that there is enough energy to actually transmit a signal hundreds of meters.

      --
      It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
    6. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by fisted · · Score: 2

      Surely not, as there isn't much energy to harvest in the first place. You'd need way more to create a signal strong enough to to be picked up by the tower, so either you have your tower very close, or your idea is moot.

    7. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 1

      The phone could probably use the power of the radiowaves in the air to do very low power things like perhaps change an e-ink display slightly.

      Wouldn't it be better to power it from ambient light (which was enough to power my calculator 20 years ago, and if there is no light there's no need to change the e-ink display ;) ) or motion?

      Shake it to wake it!

      --
      systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
    8. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by DeathToBill · · Score: 1, Informative

      Or, you could buy something other than an iPhone.

      --
      Slashdot - News for Nerds, Stuff that Matters, in ISO-8859-1 Has just realised that beta makes this signature redundant
    9. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The SIM firmware runs silently and in the background and by some reports, even when the phone is switched off

      Only with apple iCrap devices - you can't really turn them off.

      And this isn't new, it has been that way since the first iphone.

    10. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by ebno-10db · · Score: 2

      Shake it to wake it!

      It would be especially interesting with women who keep their cell in their bras (a not uncommon practice).

    11. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by Shadowmist · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      The SIM firmware runs silently and in the background and by some reports, even when the phone is switched off, it continues to slowly ping cell towers, making your phone trackable unless you remove the battery.

      There's no paranoia like Geek paranoia who daily provide living examples of just how dangerous having just a little knowledge can be. You don't need to be paranoid about the radio in your cellphone. Yes your cellphone is trackable. IT HAS TO BE FOR THE THING TO WORK. I don't worry about who can track my phone when it's turned off, because I, like most people who have ditched landlines, don't turn it off. The whole point of having a phone is to be reachable by the folks who need to contact you and for you to reach those you need to contact. There's no point going over board in tracking the hardware because if you're that clandestine, you're just buying a brace of disposables and chucking them regularly as an operating expense. Or not using them at all. There's a lot of easier ways to track you by the incessant data trail you leave by your phone calls, your email, and your incessant tweeting about how paranoid you are about THEM finding you. You want to be untrackable... go chuck ALL of your communication gear... including your WIFI equipped laptop and go live in a cave somewhere.

    12. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by Shadowmist · · Score: 1

      The phone could probably use the power of the radiowaves in the air to do very low power things like perhaps change an e-ink display slightly.

      Wouldn't it be better to power it from ambient light (which was enough to power my calculator 20 years ago, and if there is no light there's no need to change the e-ink display ;) ) or motion?

      Shake it to wake it!

      How much ambient power did your cheap solar calculator generate when it was stuffed inside your pocket?

    13. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Or, you could buy something other than an iPhone.

      s/iPhone/iPhone or Windows Phone or increasing number of Android phones

    14. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, Samsung is a pretty obscure company. Their market share of phones has declined to what, about 70% now?

    15. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by Gramie2 · · Score: 1

      For over a hundred years, people have been using the power of radio waves to generate enough electricity to operate a radio with earphones.

    16. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by tgd · · Score: 1

      That is why it is getting increasingly tough to find a phone with a replaceable battery.

      Or people just like the aesthetics of a phone without a battery cover.

      But by all means, tinfoil on.

    17. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by ruir · · Score: 2

      Low tech solution, leave phone at home?

    18. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why is why you Faraday Cage it when not using it.

    19. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      If you're really worried about that, wouldn't a good workaround be to carry a faraday cage with you? For example, an opaque anti-static bag would be helpful (at least according to some random blog post I just read).

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    20. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      sorry I call BS. Most phones have bad enough battery life as it is, any power draw whilst off would be very noticeable...

      Oh and sealed batteries, is simply a way of making sure users buy a new phone after a bit of time...

      There are plenty of crusty old Nokia's to prove that....;-)

      P.

    21. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by n1ywb · · Score: 1

      Or keep it in a shielded faraday cage.

      --
      -73, de n1ywb
      www.n1ywb.com
    22. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by F.Ultra · · Score: 1

      But if it's power enough to record audio and video it would probably be good enough for surveillance, upload can be done later when the user turns the phone on.

    23. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      My xperia Z has no replaceable battery, but it is however waterproof, which is a good reason for not having a non replaceable battery.
      It's a bit harder to justify this for non waterproof phones ofc.

    24. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by jareth-0205 · · Score: 1

      For over a hundred years, people have been using the power of radio waves to generate enough electricity to operate a radio with earphones.

      Uhuh, a radio *receiver*. The energy required to send back to the basestation is going to be in the same region as the original signal at source, not once it's been spread out and dissipated, coupled with the losses in electrical inductance are huge... and where are you going to get that from? You can't just get magic energy.

    25. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by Fri13 · · Score: 2

      What is a *shielded* faraday cage? I thought faraday cage was *the shield* :-)

    26. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by Gavagai80 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Please. Anyone paranoid enough to take the battery out of their phone to avoid being tracked would simply not bring the phone with them, which is both easy and effective.

      --
      This space intentionally left blank
    27. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by MMC+Monster · · Score: 2

      You do realize that unless the cell phone knows where you are it's impossible for you to receive a call.

      Or do you expect every cell tower to send out every call request to everyone in the world?

      If you don't want to be tracked by your cell carrier, don't carry a cell phone.

      --
      Help! I'm a slashdot refugee.
    28. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by SomeoneFromBelgium · · Score: 0

      It's a tautology. That's what it is.

    29. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, I think if you wrap your phone in tinfoil, it should give a pretty good Faraday cage.

    30. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We put a faraday cage inside your faraday cage.

    31. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      What is a *shielded* faraday cage? I thought faraday cage was *the shield* :-)

      Yo dawg, I heard you like faraday cages...

    32. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I keep reading this claim, but nowhere have I read anything resembling proof that this behaviour really occurrs.Got a link?

    33. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by Sique · · Score: 1

      There is enough energy to harvest. I remember when in the 1960ies, the electronic magazines were full of radios "with local radio tower power". We still have FM radio, right?

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    34. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by YoopDaDum · · Score: 5, Informative

      No. The SIM is powered from the baseband, and when the baseband is off the SIM has no power supply and can't do anything. Plus the SIM can only communicate with cell towers through the baseband, never on its own. The SIM cannot wake-up the baseband on its own, enabling the radio subsystem can only be done from the host processor. So what you described is not possible.

      What is possible however is that when your device cellular radio is on and the baseband is enabled, then the SIM can directly use the baseband to communicate with the network using what is called the SIM Toolkit (STK). This can be done with or without the user being informed. The STK also many features like transforming the numbers you dialed (to seamlessly add a routing prefix, or redirect), filter calls (block or accept), get and report a location, etc. The specs are public, look for 3GPP TS 31.048 and ETSI 102.223 (using USAT and CAT instead of STK, but it's all the same under different names).

    35. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by sl4shd0rk · · Score: 2

      even when the phone is switched off, it continues to slowly ping cell towers

      Got a source for that? According to Samsung and Nokia, they have no idea how that would be possible*. I'm not saying they aren't "under oath to lie about it", but if you're going to pimp that legend, at least enlighten us as to the source of your infallible research on the topic.

      [*] http://arstechnica.com/security/2013/11/samsung-nokia-say-they-dont-know-how-to-track-a-powered-down-phone/

      --
      Join the Slashcott! Feb 10 thru Feb 17!
    36. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You wrap the cage in a wet toil and then a layer of tinfoil. In the business of paranoia, you trust nobody, not even physics.

      Especially not physics.

    37. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by biodata · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Reference from the wikipedia article on Mobile Phone Tracking (check the original source if you can be arsed and let us know if sounds true): Declan McCullagh; Anne Broache (December 1, 2006). "FBI taps cell phone mic as eavesdropping tool". Cnet. Retrieved June 24, 2010. "Kaplan's opinion said that the eavesdropping technique "functioned whether the phone was powered on or off." Some handsets can't be fully powered down without removing the battery; for instance, some Nokia models will wake up when turned off if an alarm is set."

      --
      Korma: Good
    38. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by biodata · · Score: 1

      There were credible reports in 2006 that the FBI were using people's phone mics as audio bugs, and that this worked even when the phone was off,. I think you can draw your own conclusions about whether phones have become more or less susceptible to law enforcement interference in the intervening years. http://news.cnet.com/2100-1029_3-6140191.html

      --
      Korma: Good
    39. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A faraday cage within a faraday cage obviously! You can never be too safe.

    40. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by umghhh · · Score: 1

      Having male hetero brain I read that and before even finishing reading properly I had a phantasy with these different sizes and forms, all shaking invitingly or being squeezed etc Then I thought - wait - the phone in this positions cannot bring any interesting stuff unless the bra is taken off with the phone and you get some perspective from which you can watch properly or the breasts are so flat that perspective is possible from the bra which however is not needed in such situation. Then I read again and realized this sentence was written by a weasel - it is not interesting what the phone in bra is seeing and passing over but the ladies themselves doing all these things with their toys that are interesting! While I agree with all the excitement the memory of the letter from the divorce judge (with court costs etc) keeps me cold these days better than a load of ice cubes in the pants.

    41. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This should be measureable. Put a decently sensitive ammeter between the battery and phone and watch for current draw and/or spiky current draw that would indicate something occasionally waking up.

    42. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by quacking+duck · · Score: 2

      That is why it is getting increasingly tough to find a phone with a replaceable battery.

      Or, you could buy something other than an iPhone.

      Or a Nexus 4. Or a Nexus 5. Or an HTC One / One X+. Or a Sony Xperia Z1. Or an LG G2. Or a Nokia Lumia 1020.

      The AC is correct. A surprising number of high-end smartphones, including Google's own flagship units, have followed Apple by using non-replaceable batteries.

    43. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by Jeremi · · Score: 1

      Please. Anyone paranoid enough to take the battery out of their phone to avoid being tracked would simply not bring the phone with them, which is both easy and effective.

      Unless you want to, you know, use the phone later. (Presumably at some time and location where you're no longer worried about being tracked).

      --


      I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
    44. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      That was true a few years ago, but not anymore.
      Nexus 4 has got no replaceable battery. Neither has HTC One, many Sony phones and the top of the line Nokia phones. In fact, of the larger brands, I think only LG and Samsung still offer phones with a replaceable battery.

      And only in the case of Sony it makes some sense because their phones are often IP54/55 and higher. In fact my Acro S has survived a dive into a rain barrell without even rebooting or being dried afterwards.

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    45. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      AKA Planned Obsolescence

    46. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by marcosdumay · · Score: 1

      Nope. It's either a redundancy, or the GP wanted his farraday cage to survive gun shots.

    47. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can wrap the phone in a Faraday Cage. Go ahead, cue the tin foil hat jokes, but if the signal is trapped in a metal box and can't get out, it can even receive signals from cell towers and will try to respond, but the tower can't pick up the reply, so the tower won't know the phone is there.

    48. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by Lumpy · · Score: 2

      This is 100% bullshit.

      I have an old E62 here that was Charged 2 years ago and then put in the drawer off. I just turned it on and it's still charged, in fact 80% charged. if the radio was turning on for ANY reason it would not have that much battery left.

      Let's check another... Old unused iphone 3S here IT also still has 80% charge after sitting for a year unused and off.

      and yes they BOTH have a sim card in them. AT&T loves sending out new sim cards every time you get a phone.

      But let's go further, With the radio OFF there is no power for the magical sim to run it's software. Yes I have done some GSM hacking and on every single phone I have tested there is 0.00V going to the power pads on a SIM card when the phone is switched off. I have made a thin flexible ribbon to slip in between a sim and it's phone contacts to sniff what is going on between the sim and phone to create a unlocker for phones that had issues being unlocked. with all those wires brough out you can see there is no voltage there. and when you power up a SIM on it's own it does not look for devices to talk to. They are passive devices that require the phone radio hardware to talk to it and get information. Some had a java engine in them for encryption use, but those have not been common for nearly a decade.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    49. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by Lumpy · · Score: 0

      No it's because of whiny babies that dont want fat phones.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    50. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by Gavagai80 · · Score: 1

      Borrow someone else's phone at your destination, use a pay phone (yes they still exist), or just realize that you don't actually need your phone. Actually if you want full phone use without tracking all you need is a group of friends with which you randomly exchange phones frequently.

      --
      This space intentionally left blank
    51. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      Oops. Flamebaited. Must have hit a nerve.

      But to all the professional paranoids out there, Shadowmist is right. If you want anonymity, get off the grid. Really off. The aluminum foil isn't nearly as effective as you think it is.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    52. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      I was once butdialed by a friend. His Blackberry was in a pocket and dialed me (I was the last call). All I got was some random voices and burbles. At one point, I thought I could recognize my friends' voice but most of it was somebody with an Indian / Pakistani accent. Curious, I let the call keep going to see if I could understand anything. Nope. Perhaps with some sophisticated audio filtering but I don't think there was much info to filter. Unless you're totally hung up on chair noises.

      Called him back later. He was in a business meeting. Yeah, it might be possible to get some info that way, but if they're trying that hard, their are easier ways of getting that kind of data.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    53. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can't remove the battery in the LG G2 unless you live in South Korea.

    54. Re: Old silent SIM firmware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not enough energy to transmit? No, because the energy can be stored - it just depends on how frequently you want to transmit.

    55. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by fatphil · · Score: 1

      Yes, but the PIC that manages the clock typically has no capabilities apart from being able to assert a single interrupt line connect to the power management chip, which knows that's a wake-up source, and which will wake up the application processor, which can then in turn wake up the modem. So whilst the alarm isn't actually going off, the device is indeed off.

      --
      Also FatPhil on SoylentNews, id 863
    56. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      Unless you want to, you know, use the phone later. (Presumably at some time and location where you're no longer worried about being tracked).

      Anyone that paranoid is never in a place where they aren't worried about being tracked. LF11, we're talking about you here. And we know where you are. You're hiding under the bed with your iPad watching TV from your Hopper. Yes, we just heard you squeal.

    57. Re: Old silent SIM firmware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Would a radio powered chip be able to record location info for later transmission?

    58. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      enabling the radio subsystem can only be done from the host processor.

      TFA says the host processor is the slave, and the baseband is the master. It sounds likely possible the baseband could wake itself up, on a timer, or by pretending to shut down and not doing so, and power SIM, while leaving the host processor asleep. It seems also plausible the SIM could exploit baseband vulnerabilities, so boot once with an exploit SIM and your baseband will now wake up when the SIM wants it to. I think you're basically right, and people are focusing on the SIM because they can touch it, even though it's not very interesting---it's a form of bike-shedding. But you're also really overconfident. Parent has the same tone as Cisco claiming their routers can't be hacked because they're firmware instead of software, and then we get the IOS rootkit of 2008.

    59. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

      because there's absolutely no other way to stop the signal. Like a grounded metal box. Or pulling the SIM out of the phone. Or detuning the antenna by "holding it wrong" or whatever the meme is.

      --
      Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
    60. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

      And by not having the extra casing around the battery, the latching and connecting mechanisms, and the cover and latch for it, you can fit in more battery cell.

      --
      Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
    61. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by FuzzNugget · · Score: 1

      Or you could remove the SIM card

    62. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by anagama · · Score: 1

      The particular android phone I wanted to get was the HTC One (I have an HTC Amaze and it's a great phone, removable battery too). The One however, has an embedded battery. So I haven't bought it.

      http://www.htc.com/www/smartphones/htc-one/#specs

      --
      What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
    63. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or keep it in a shielded faraday cage.

      I wrap my phone in aluminum foil (the same one I use to wrap my sandwich). When I put my phone next to my head it looks like the earflap of my tin foil hat.

    64. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The shields are to stop the lasers from cutting holes in the faraday cage.

    65. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by anagama · · Score: 2

      Yes, but with a replaceable battery, you can carry a spare.

      I don't know what the deal is with thin -- beyond a certain point it just doesn't matter and in fact, makes the phone harder to hold really. But I don't think people will be happy till phones are as thin as a razor -- who cares about the gashes and gushes of blood so long as the phone is thin thin thin!

      --
      What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
    66. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by Zalbik · · Score: 1

      What is a *shielded* faraday cage? I thought faraday cage was *the shield* :-)

      A shielded faraday cage is obviously a faraday cage inside a faraday cage.

      A strongly shielded faraday cage is a faraday cage inside a strongly shielded faraday cage.

      Turtles.

    67. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by camperdave · · Score: 1

      They could use a joule-thief or discharge flash tube style circuit to accumulate energy until there was enough power to run the transmitter for a quick burst.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    68. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

      You just reminded me of the Palm Pre 2 - I think you could shave with the bottom bit when it was open.

      --
      Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
    69. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjz-5Lqtxow

    70. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by fisted · · Score: 1

      But it isn't power enough to record audio, much less video. We're talking milliwatts, possibly microwatts here.

    71. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It would seem trivial to put a meter across the pins of a microchip and "scientifically prove" this. Granted, there's a small amount of magnetic-field generated energy but if there's no power going to the corresponding decoder chip, there's nothing "listening".

    72. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by sjames · · Score: 1

      Consider how you turn your phone off. I'm betting it isn't with toggle switch that disconnects the battery. Unless you do remove the battery, OFF is just another mode where the screen doesn't light up and it doesn't talk to towers (that you know of).

      Now consider if the phone is hacked so that when you tell it to turn off it just blanks the screen and any other indicator and doesn't ring when a call comes in. If it has WiFi, turn that off too. Would you know the difference?

      So, hack target's phone and listen all you want even when they turn the phone "off".

    73. Re: Old silent SIM firmware by dotancohen · · Score: 1

      How would you like to store it? In a capacitor you would need a voltage difference greater than the extant difference already in the capacitor.

      --
      It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
    74. Re: Old silent SIM firmware by dotancohen · · Score: 1

      Yes, possibly. I suppose that it could flip some bits in a non-volatile storage medium. Nice thinking.

      --
      It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
    75. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by dotancohen · · Score: 1

      I have never heard of the joule-theif until now, I will definitely research this. Thanks for the tip.

      --
      It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
    76. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by ninlilizi · · Score: 1

      Modern phones also have a Speakerphone mode.
      Making the mic more sensitive. To where it can clearly hear anybody within a few meters.

    77. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by tgd · · Score: 1

      Yes, but with a replaceable battery, you can carry a spare.

      I don't know what the deal is with thin -- beyond a certain point it just doesn't matter and in fact, makes the phone harder to hold really. But I don't think people will be happy till phones are as thin as a razor -- who cares about the gashes and gushes of blood so long as the phone is thin thin thin!

      If I'd replied yesterday, I would've said I'd never ran a battery out on my current phone -- only the second I've owned without a replaceable battery. Of course, yesterday I managed to kill it for the first time.

      But in 20+ years of owning a cell phone, I've never carried a spare battery and never swapped mid-day. So its a complete non-issue for me.

    78. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, that would be "hardened", not shielded.

    79. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >get off the grid

      This. Join the Rainbow Family or find a way to live on cash and to travel w/o leaving footprints (no credit card use, camp on a beach, couch-surf and use travel boards to find rides, etc., etc.).

      I actually do this for about two weeks each year on vacation; it is quite refreshing to TURN ALL THAT SHIT OFF once in a while. People actually lived this way for untold millennia...

    80. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hi there Stallman!

    81. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Please. Anyone paranoid enough to take the battery out of their phone to avoid being tracked would simply not bring the phone with them, which is both easy and effective.

      For anyone that paranoid who still wants to bring their phone with them (perhaps for emergency calls), I got two words for ya: aluminum foil.

    82. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >There is no way that there is enough energy to actually transmit a signal hundreds of meters.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thing_(listening_device)

    83. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by KozmoStevnNaut · · Score: 1

      Absolutely, and I hate it so much. Try finding a tablet with a user-replaceable battery, it's nearly impossible. My Asus Transformer Infinity is still a pretty beefy tablet, with a great screen on it. Am I just supposed to throw it away when the battery dies, or send it to Asus so they can replace the battery for a ~$100 fee? When the time comes, I'll definitely try to replace it according to ifixit.com's guide, but it's still a major hassle.

      Which is exactly why my next phone is going to be a Fairphone. Everything about it is designed to be as long-lived as possible. User-replaceable battery and the whole phone is made to be serviced by a savvy user with a standard micro screwdriver set. And it's made with conflict-free minerals by decently-paid workers, which is pretty cool too.

      --
      Eat the rich.
    84. Re:Old silent SIM firmware by dotancohen · · Score: 1

      Though an amazing bit of engineering, the Thing has nothing to do with this discussion. For one thing, the antenna would not fit in a modern cell phone. For another, the Thing has other limitations which make it impractical here, such as transmitting analogue-only information (essentially, sound only).

      If you are suggesting that some 'magic' or clever engineering might come up with a way to increase the viable distance to a receiver, I would love to see it. But that argument is too general and could be made in any argument. Thus, invalid in all arguments until shown to be practical.

      --
      It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
  6. Zombie cell signals by Machupo · · Score: 1
    --
    *insert pithy sig here*
  7. 1+1+1=3 3!=2 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    *cough* java on the SIM *cough*

    Only a few hundred thousand people know this.... maybe, "unknown by the majority" ain't "secret".

    News at 9 - evolution isn't horizontal (sigh)

  8. MCUs run firmware by fisted · · Score: 2

    News at 11.

    1. Re:MCUs run firmware by rasmusbr · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yeah, I'm surprised anyone thinks this is news. It's been like this since the days of the grayscale Nokia phones. A phone that is turned of can still be located by the cell towers and it can in some cases be remotely turned on and used as a listening device. Back then security experts advised to remove the battery before you discussed secrets in a corporate or government setting, in order to avoid falling victim to espionage.

      I guess it's just not very practical to follow that advice. Some government agencies and some corporations have probably installed jammers or shielding around certain meeting rooms in order to keep top meetings secure.

    2. Re:MCUs run firmware by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I'm surprised anyone thinks this is news. It's been like this since the days of the grayscale Nokia phones. A phone that is turned of can still be located by the cell towers and it can in some cases be remotely turned on and used as a listening device. Back then security experts advised to remove the battery before you discussed secrets in a corporate or government setting, in order to avoid falling victim to espionage.

      I guess it's just not very practical to follow that advice. Some government agencies and some corporations have probably installed jammers or shielding around certain meeting rooms in order to keep top meetings secure.

      Probably because some very popular phones make it impossible to remove the batteries.

    3. Re:MCUs run firmware by updatelee · · Score: 1

      I agree, not exactly breaking news, I should be common knowledge. Lots of devices run like this, including your PC. Tons of devices inside and outside your computer use firmware.

      UDL

    4. Re:MCUs run firmware by ebno-10db · · Score: 2

      Some government agencies and some corporations have probably installed jammers or shielding around certain meeting rooms in order to keep top meetings secure.

      In labs where classified government work is done (not necessarily very high level classification either) you're often required to put your cell in a box or something outside the lab before you enter. You don't have to turn it off, which makes it fun to figure out whose cell is ringing when you have a whole basket of them.

    5. Re:MCUs run firmware by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Probably because some very popular phones make it impossible to remove the batteries.

      Luckily, they still fit in a mylar bag.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    6. Re:MCUs run firmware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In labs where classified government work is done (not necessarily very high level classification either) you're often required to put your cell in a box or something outside the lab before you enter. You don't have to turn it off, which makes it fun to figure out whose cell is ringing when you have a whole basket of them.

      1. Who is answering their phone when it is in a box outside the lab?
      2. Ringtones.

    7. Re:MCUs run firmware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree, not exactly breaking news, I should be common knowledge.

      Common knowledge among slashdot readers maybe. Not sure there's any reason it should be well known outside of the denizens of sites like this. And even among those who are techies, a fairly significant proportion of us are not firmware geeks, and would never have any good reason to think down to the level below the APIs of the user-facing OS.

      Lots of devices run like this, including your PC. Tons of devices inside and outside your computer use firmware.

      Yes, but relatively few of them are designed to be connected to and have commands sent to them remotely.

      Sure we've all got wifi in our PCs now, but that's a different thing entirely: Wifi has much fewer capabilities for remote control, and the wifi hardware/firmware in our PCs is generally more separated from the rest of the device than is described in this article.

      In any case, the point of this article is not to do a big reveal of the existence of this firmware (it does come across that way, but the headline is just link bait), but to point out the vulnerabilities that exist as a result of it not being properly security audited. Maybe that isn't news to you either, but I suspect that for most of us, the details of what is possible have the potential to be a little scary.

    8. Re:MCUs run firmware by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      Who is answering their phone when it is in a box outside the lab?

      1. Someone who has stepped outside for a moment.
      2. Someone who hears the phone while they're inside the labs and is expecting an important call. You can step outside.
      3. Someone who has been asked to answer Bob's phone if it rings, because he's expecting an important call.

      Ringtones.

      Is it the practice in your organization to ensure that all ring tones are unique and that assignment is coordinated? Ring tones work for a small number of people who are carrying their phones.

    9. Re:MCUs run firmware by umghhh · · Score: 1
      the whole concept is a bull. Unless someone tinkered with your phone in such a way that it looks like it is off but it in fact still sends some data over the waves then you can see that with your battery load level. Other than modified phone software I cannot imagine any phone makers would let the battery be drained while off. For your personal entertainment you can compare battery drainage in following situations: after a day out of the phone (this of course if maker of the device allowed that), in switched off state, in switched-on state but with switched-off all radio interfaces and then with all on without making calls (can be done - just put a new sim card in which nobody used before). I can assure you that in first two situations you will see no difference and in the following situation you will see increasing drainage. If you did not that means you are an important person and somebody bugged your phone - go buy another one.

      It is maybe a common practice in certain organisations to not have your phone in certain areas. That is because you can fake the switching off a phone on purpose or it may be done because somebody bugged the phone which means you are a subject of a dedicated attack - congratulations. Other than that it is all easier for 3 and 4 letter agencies to listen and spy with other means. BTW: swapping simcards is no help really.

    10. Re:MCUs run firmware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which is why I will make a bundle with my new website: executiveespionage.com where I just sell old tape recorders.

    11. Re:MCUs run firmware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I realize I am unusual, but I designed my own ringtones for every sound. Used GarageBand, took an afternoon, and had a lot of fun. Now I know exactly what happens on my phone.

    12. Re:MCUs run firmware by stooo · · Score: 1

      >> Luckily, they still fit in a mylar bag.

      ?? what should a mylar bag do ??
      Better put theim in the thrash bag instead

      --
      aaaaaaa
    13. Re:MCUs run firmware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > which makes it fun to figure out whose cell is ringing when you have a whole basket of them.

      Newsflash: if the phone is *ringing* (from a call at least) it's not offline...

    14. Re:MCUs run firmware by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      Where did I say anything about offline?

    15. Re:MCUs run firmware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Could you provide a citation for this statement?

    16. Re:MCUs run firmware by rasmusbr · · Score: 1

      Here's a news story from 2006: http://news.cnet.com/2100-1029-6140191.html

      The feature where they could turn your phone into a surveillance bug probably relied on software bugs or security holes in the firmwares of certain phone models. It's just impossible for the average user to know if their phone was secure or not. Who knows what the capabilities are today with iOS and Android and current phone models?

    17. Re:MCUs run firmware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You need a lot more than that. Try making a bag out of multiple layers of foil, enough layers so that it's stiff...

    18. Re:MCUs run firmware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      LEAD foil. Screw this tinfoil stuff...

      The pull all your own teeth.

  9. Idiotic article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    I run an aftermarket radio on my Nexus 4 that enables LTE.

    It's not a separate operating system. It is the definitions for the SDR ASIC in the phone. It is not part of the main ARM processor - it's memory is just mapped through it to facilitate programming.

    What the hell is wrong with Slashdot these past few years? It seems that ever since the dice buyout the place has just gone in the shitter.

    1. Re:Idiotic article by ebno-10db · · Score: 2

      It's not a separate operating system. ... It is not part of the main ARM processor

      "It is not part of the main ARM processor" means it's a separate processor, which is correct, and it does run a separate OS (RTOS really).

      It is the definitions for the SDR ASIC in the phone.

      If it's SDR, then it must be running on a processor. In practice, it's a mix of hardware and software implementation. For example, despreading CDMA signals is easy to do in hardware, and a complete waste of a processor's power in software. There are probably also one or more DSP's buried in there somewhere. Despite some extensions for light-duty stuff, ARM is not a good choice for DSP.

    2. Re:Idiotic article by jonwil · · Score: 1

      BZZT WRONG. I have seen the Nexus 4 hardware and I know for a fact that it does contain a separate CPU for the baseband.

    3. Re:Idiotic article by Shadowmist · · Score: 1

      I run an aftermarket radio on my Nexus 4 that enables LTE.

      It's not a separate operating system. It is the definitions for the SDR ASIC in the phone. It is not part of the main ARM processor - it's memory is just mapped through it to facilitate programming.

      What the hell is wrong with Slashdot these past few years? It seems that ever since the dice buyout the place has just gone in the shitter.

      The place was going downhill long before then. It's like anything that's open to the general public. There's always someone who thinks he can garner 15 seconds of Internet fame by posting to geek paranoia.

    4. Re:Idiotic article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If it's still paranoia even when it's dead on, you're not a geek, you're one of those weird people-centric "normals", to whom everything is magic anyway. So wave a wand, say an incantation, or throw some money at it.

    5. Re:Idiotic article by couchslug · · Score: 1

      "It seems that ever since the dice buyout the place has just gone in the shitter."

      There is too much money for it NOT to go in the shitter. Knifing that baby was worth millions of dollars. It was a good run, but as Slashdot inevitably descends further into suckage there is nothing the user base can do. It's not our site. It doesn't belong to us. Not our property.

      Time to find an alternative to Slashdot and just use this place for lulz.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    6. Re:Idiotic article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course the user-base can't do anything about it. It's not the site owners posting paranoid delusions in so many comments. It's users, including those with mod points, gone bonkers.

      Dice drove away many of the brightest people, but that's as far as their role in the Slashdot meltdown into paranoia goes. The rest is all on deranged users.

    7. Re:Idiotic article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      BZZT WRONG. I have seen the Nexus 4 hardware and I know for a fact that it does contain a separate CPU for the baseband.

      I think there's also another separate ARM core in the wifi chip, also running a blob OS, a core beyond what's there in normal wifi chips because "powersaving". Hopefully it only has USB access and not pcie or memory access, but who knows.

    8. Re:Idiotic article by jonwil · · Score: 1

      The difference I suspect is that what runs on the WiFi chip (or the Bluetooth chip if its got its own firmware) is not an operating system under the definition of the term, it doesn't have separate distinct processes like a OS.

      Whereas what runs on the baseband does have separate processes and other OS-like characteristics. Or at least it does on the baseband CPUs I saw when I did a 6 month student internship at Motorola :)

  10. The less it has to do, the safer it is. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Because it's harder to exploit.

    Did you know that inside EVERY SINGLE electronic circuit is an "OS" that is trusted for EVERYTHING? It's called "the laws of physics". If that circuit gets a signal to switch on, EVEN FROM A MALWARE AUTHOR, *it will switch*.

    Worse, there's absolutely NO WAY to remove it!

    QUICK! HIDE FROM THE PAEDO TAKING OVER YOUR COMPUTER!!!!

    1. Re:The less it has to do, the safer it is. by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

      Because it's harder to exploit.

      Did you know that inside EVERY SINGLE electronic circuit is an "OS" that is trusted for EVERYTHING? It's called "the laws of physics". If that circuit gets a signal to switch on, EVEN FROM A MALWARE AUTHOR, *it will switch*.

      Worse, there's absolutely NO WAY to remove it!

      QUICK! HIDE FROM THE PAEDO TAKING OVER YOUR COMPUTER!!!!

      It doesn't even need a malware author. A stray electronic field is usually enough to flip the switch on or off or more likely completely burn it out.

  11. Over-the-air Security Protocols by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

    It doesn't matter if the RTOS and other firmware are secure if you don't have good security in the over-the-air protocols. That's the vector that would be used to get to this, assuming you have decent security on the host processor (or whatever you want to call the thing that runs stupid games). Some time ago I worked on 3G and LTE phy layer stuff, but don't recollect much about the higher layer protocols. Anyone know what sort of security they have?

    1. Re:Over-the-air Security Protocols by YoopDaDum · · Score: 3, Informative

      Hi there. I'm not following 3G closely but in LTE the encryption schemes are secure. You have two options, both 128 bits: SNOW 3G (inherited from 3G as you can guess ;) and an AES scheme. Both secure as of today. In R10 or R11 a Chinese scheme called ZUC has been added too, also 128 bits. The operator decides on which scheme is used, and the device must support both SNOW 3G and AES today.

      The big thing is that the encryption is between the device and cell (base station). The assumption is that the cell is secure, and behind the operator network is secured by other means. So it's important to protect the cell (eNB in LTE) against compromises. A fake cell won't work as in LTE the authentication is mutual: the UE won't work with any cell, except for an emergency call.

      For more details have a look at the 3GPP 33.401 spec, for example the latest R9 version.

    2. Re:Over-the-air Security Protocols by stooo · · Score: 1

      >> A fake cell won't work as in LTE the authentication is mutual:

      Yeah. Everything is not encrypted.
      There is still a huge attack surface. One simple example : downgrade attack. Simply switch to GSM, and the baseband will respond to your fake BS with the same old buggy and broken protocols, using code not really updated since 1997.

      --
      aaaaaaa
    3. Re:Over-the-air Security Protocols by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How is the session key negotiated? I can't believe that my LTE phone came from the factory, already preloaded with a dictionary of what key to use for every base station that exists (and will exist), so there's surely some way that the base station and the phone sort that out.

      That's where I would attack, if I were the peoples' adversary (government, criminal, ad profiler, whatever).

    4. Re:Over-the-air Security Protocols by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      oh, well, as long as there are 128 bits we should be fine.

      srsly, wtf noob?

    5. Re:Over-the-air Security Protocols by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      SNOW3G is not secure you fucking moron. There are numerous exploits in the wild. Expensive, but not expensive enough to call secure.

    6. Re:Over-the-air Security Protocols by YoopDaDum · · Score: 1

      Encryption is optional but typically always set in production network.

      For the downgrade attack, I completely agree and mention this elsewhere. When a next gen cellular technology is out there's not much changes/updates on the previous ones as operator focus their investments in the latest. And due to this we still have the 2G issue you mention. That's unfortunate, but in practice I believe the only solution to this will come when 2G will be phased out. It's still a few years away in most countries, and has been done already in some places (some big operators in Japan, South Korea).

    7. Re:Over-the-air Security Protocols by lars_stefan_axelsson · · Score: 1

      How is the session key negotiated? I can't believe that my LTE phone came from the factory, already preloaded with a dictionary of what key to use for every base station that exists (and will exist), so there's surely some way that the base station and the phone sort that out.

      Indeed no. That's what the SIM is actually for. The SIM contains all information about you and the network, including keys. The protocols are a bit convoluted, but there's nothing obviously wrong there.

      Of course if you don't trust the issuer of the SIM then you're in trouble. However, since that also means that you really don't trust the network you're connecting to, you're in no worse trouble than before, i.e. you're basically screwed anyway.

      --
      Stefan Axelsson
  12. Excessive Peer Review is Anti-Capitalist by atom1c · · Score: 2, Interesting

    From the original article, the author (Thom, whom I recognize for his efforts) introduces the topic of peer-reviewing every minutia of the devices we use; he laments about the absence of peer-review in proprietary and closed-source. As an open-source advocate, such a viewpoint is naturally expected and his flashing a light on the subject is always appreciated. [But how does he know? Wouldn't technology companies use security consultants to conduct security audits?]

    However, applying the same lines of argument to every closed-source scenario is really preaching anti-capitalism. That means they're arguing against trust of the technology creator, against their desire for trust-based compensation, against the notion of making a dollar in order to spend a dollar (due to constant disclosure of all things 'private'), and against the underlying notion of privacy. Actually, scratch that... they're simply hypocrites.

    Why? Because they advocate disclosure (anti-privacy) by others, thus not trusting others. However, they want personal privacy in the hopes of establishing a reputation for being trustworthy -- or are they advocating an ultra-liberal utopia where commerce is not based on property but instead based on a crafted perception of trust? Either way, that's hypocritical behavior! If everything becomes subject to peer-review, then the notion of trust vaporizes... and in the process, privacy is gradually lost... and both factors lead to an erosion of aspects of capitalism.

    TL;DR -- Peer-review everything means trusting nothing, disclosure of everything, and loss of privacy... yet it's hypocritical since the advocates seek to maintain anonymity when applying the same frustrations against capitalism as they do against trust-based commerce.

    1. Re:Excessive Peer Review is Anti-Capitalist by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 1

      TL;DR -- Peer-review everything means trusting nothing, disclosure of everything, and loss of privacy...

      Your TL;DR needs a TL;DR.

      --
      systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
    2. Re:Excessive Peer Review is Anti-Capitalist by Punko · · Score: 2

      Sorry Sunshine, you're mixing apples and oranges. He's advocating peer-review for technologies to be widely used and trusted by people. He's advocating privacy and anonymity for people. You are trying to say that asking that the tools we use to privately communicate should be trusted, because the corporate bodies that make them deserve to be trusted. People have the right for private communication, with the exception of pre-authorized, court sponsored, evidence gathering. People are allowed to be anonymous. We do not have to carry papers when we travel locally/internally. We are free to associate. I do not have to trust that the software you have installed on a device that that I own. I certainly do not have to give up my rights to grant rights where they do not belong

      --
      If only we could fall into a woman's arms without falling into her hands
    3. Re:Excessive Peer Review is Anti-Capitalist by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      Your argument fails because you conflate the need to trust a tool with the need to trust a person. I need to be able to trust my tools because I'm using them, but I do not need to trust you because I'm not using you.

      Now, if you're talking about a slave, then I agree it's a problem if the slave has privacy. But despite it being quite perfectly capitalist, it's been well established that slavery is a bad idea.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    4. Re:Excessive Peer Review is Anti-Capitalist by camperdave · · Score: 1

      But despite it being quite perfectly capitalist, it's been well established that slavery is a bad idea.

      It has? Are you talking about slavery in general, or just the American-style, race bigoted version?

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    5. Re:Excessive Peer Review is Anti-Capitalist by mrchaotica · · Score: 1
      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    6. Re:Excessive Peer Review is Anti-Capitalist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      TL;DR == "I'm aliterate." Except, of course, an aliterate doesn't usually know what "aliterate" means, since even though they can read, they can't be bothered to.

    7. Re:Excessive Peer Review is Anti-Capitalist by camperdave · · Score: 1

      That doesn't say that slavery is a bad idea. It just says that it is against UN charter.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    8. Re:Excessive Peer Review is Anti-Capitalist by atom1c · · Score: 1

      He's advocating peer-review for technologies to be widely used and trusted by people. He's advocating privacy and anonymity for people.

      Yes, that's contradictory and/or hypocrisy. It's ostensibly encouraging a double standard of privacy. Instead, the same level of peer-review should be applied to all entities -- be it a person, a corporation, or an artifact/technology.

      (Yes, it's also a double-edge sword to want cake and have to eat it all, too.)

    9. Re:Excessive Peer Review is Anti-Capitalist by Punko · · Score: 1

      I cannot agree on this. There is no double standard here, only different standards applied to different concepts. When I produce a product for public consumption where that device facilitates a protected right, the device should be tested for its ability to be trusted. i.e. source code public and/or peer reviewed. My personal communication is protected. The software for my device to facilitate that communication should be trusted, and the only way to ensure that trust is to have its functionality peer reviewed.

      There are different standards here, because there are different rights at stake, and they have different values.

      --
      If only we could fall into a woman's arms without falling into her hands
    10. Re:Excessive Peer Review is Anti-Capitalist by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      If you don't think that having so many people agree with the idea that it made it into the UN charter is not sufficient to count it as "well established," then you're trolling and can go fuck off.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    11. Re:Excessive Peer Review is Anti-Capitalist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I do not need to trust you because I'm not using you

      Indeed. And when I am using you, I still don't need to trust you for I always use a condom.

    12. Re:Excessive Peer Review is Anti-Capitalist by camperdave · · Score: 1

      Don't get me wrong. Most IMPLEMENTATIONS of slavery are wrong. For example, chattel slavery. Some, like military service, contract labour, and debt bondage, can be mutually beneficial both to the master and the slave.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    13. Re:Excessive Peer Review is Anti-Capitalist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you're advocating for debt bondage?

    14. Re:Excessive Peer Review is Anti-Capitalist by atom1c · · Score: 1

      the device should be tested for its ability to be trusted.

      In my original comment, I obliquely asked whether technology companies' security consultants and government-sanctioned auditors (technical review committees which authorize such devices) were sufficient to address the concern.

      Let's remember that this isn't some "nobody knows who built the firmware" scenario. This is in reference to commercial goods and services which have obtained countless industry and government certifications before being made available to the general public. Whether the public comprehends the magnitude of regulations at play is an entirely different story.

      If consumers cannot trust the governments and their constellation of countless certification professionals, then what makes anyone think that consumers can trust a handful of ad-hoc peer-reviewers who operate under the freedoms established by the same said governments?! Let's not forget the bottom line: commercial products are different than journal articles specializing in theoretical concepts for academic credentialing.

    15. Re:Excessive Peer Review is Anti-Capitalist by atom1c · · Score: 1

      This should get moderated as Funny!

    16. Re:Excessive Peer Review is Anti-Capitalist by camperdave · · Score: 1

      Why not? Debt bondage is a person's pledge of their labour or services as repayment for a loan or other debt. It's only when the concept is misused that it becomes an issue.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    17. Re:Excessive Peer Review is Anti-Capitalist by Punko · · Score: 1

      I can see how my comments addressed items not in your original post. I will say that I agree that those agencies providing review of trustworthiness of a product, must themselves, be open to inspection. If I need to trust person B to review device X to inform me as to whether I should trust that device, I need satisfaction that B can be trusted. From this position, both aspects of trust are the same. However, I will maintain that no enough is done in our marketplace (primarily due to governments not wanting to limit their own reach) to ensure the security of our private communications. The telecom and data industries are only limiting themselves to what is required by law. There is no advantage to them to provide better security, and I have no doubt, that there is considerable pressure not to. Here, the market does not provide the device, service, or product I desire; either limited by legislation or by actions from state agencies.

      --
      If only we could fall into a woman's arms without falling into her hands
  13. All the other OS, too. by DrYak · · Score: 4, Informative

    The situation isn't that much different as a desktop user connecting to the internet over a xDSL/Cable/whatever modem without first overwriting its firmware with a secure one (at least, with a modem, the user is the one uploading the firmware, and as most are Linux based, its easy to have a more or less secure firmware. Unlike the GSM/GPRS/LTE chip which is handled by the service provider, thought there exist ISP-remote-administered modems).

    And with TFA's phone example, there's the OS running inside all the verious relay (different machine inside the cell tower, router, service provider's main router/server, tons of other routers along the optical fiber road [including a few NSA listening stations, the moment this road crosses the north American continent], a group of mail server receiving, storing and retrieving mail, then again a long chain of server and router [and another NSA listening station and/or FSB's or MSS's or ONYX's or ...] up to the recipient's servire provider, the the users' home routeur [with the xDSL and the Wifi firmware as additional steps inside, not necessarily opensource, although some chip makers are helping a lot], and finally the recipient's tablet [+/- an additional closed firmware on that chip too).

    All this step could corrupt (unintentionally) or tamper (on purprose) or listen [hello NSA], on anything that is sent it the clear.

    Sending things on the internet is as secure as sending a post card, especially back when much more of the processing was handled manually. Except that the current equivalent of my exemple's post-offices employee are much less moral. And except that the post office happens to have a weirdguy who's obessive-compulsive about xeroxing every single post-card he handle and store it into a binder "just in case he needs to embarass publicly someone in the future, and also to unmask communist conspiracies" whose name is either Ned S. Andale, or Feodor Stefanov Bakunine. Also except that there are at least 3 such guys in 99 out of 100 post offices.

    Again the only way to trust your data is to practice end-to-end encryption. Encrypt it on you phone before sending it away. Decrypt then only on the receiving tablet.

    An untrusted phone firmware is nothing new, and isn't much different than the trust into the OS running into another server along the transmission chain.
    With one small difference: when you remove the battery of a phone everything is shut off your android running on your big octa-core big.little ARM CPU, but also the proprietary real-time system running inside the small ARM core inside the radio chip (that in practice functions as if owned by the phone company whose SIM is inserted).
    Whereas, you can't just walk out and pull the cable of the NSA/FSB/whatever listening station in the middle of somewhere in the USA.

    --
    "Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
    1. Re:All the other OS, too. by faffod · · Score: 2

      Don't get nostalgic about the old manual days where an employee might have a chance to glance at your postcard. These days the post-office (and by extension every branch of government that wants to) memorizes each and every post card you receive. http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130703/12551523709/old-school-metadata-still-being-harvested-usps-turned-over-to-law-enforcementsecurity-agencies-request.shtml

    2. Re:All the other OS, too. by georgeb · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I think you misread what the author is saying. The problem is not the fact that communications originating from your phone are potentially insecure (the situation you're trying to compare with the DSL modem and the myriad routers). The problem is that, the author alleges, the smartphones are primarily controlled by the baseband processor firmware; according to the author this piece of code is the governor of everything that happens on your phone. That means, with the appropriate base station changes, anyone can access your phone while sitting in your pocket, can activate the cam, the microphone, can access the contents of it's memory card, etc.

      I do not fully trust the author because as far as I understand the baseband processor is supposed to control only the radio and nothing else. That means wifi, gsm and bluetooth. I don't understand why the baseband would have to deal with anything else, and why it would be the master processor and not just a blackbox "device" that the main OS sees and communicates with, in a properly isolated fashion. But then again I'm not knowledgeable enough to be certain about any of this.

      If the article is correct then this is one of the scariest things I've read in a long time.

    3. Re:All the other OS, too. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      That means, with the appropriate base station changes, anyone can access your phone while sitting in your pocket

      My pockets are not large enough for anybody to sit in there. Not much of a danger here.

      can activate the cam

      That's a good idea. That way he'll see where I'm carrying him in my pocket.

    4. Re:All the other OS, too. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      I've seen this before, but I've never actually looked at any phones' schematic to prove it's true.

      Take a look at Replicant, a fork of Cyanogenmod for people who are religious about software freedom. Replicant aims to have absolutely no proprietary software, but so far, none of their supported phones achieve that. They all have a statement along the lines "Modem firmware is non-free and there is no free alternative" and another saying "The modem controls CPU memory (read/write)".

      The closest thing to a free phone is one of the OpenMoko phones. They still use a proprietary modem, but it communicates over SPI, and the main CPU is the master.

    5. Re:All the other OS, too. by Arker · · Score: 2

      " I don't understand why the baseband would have to deal with anything else, and why it would be the master processor and not just a blackbox "device" that the main OS sees and communicates with, in a properly isolated fashion."

      Because it is simpler/faster/easier/cheaper to simply give the baseband DMA, and once that is done any notion that the ARM chip is truly a 'master processor' is gone with the wind.

      It's not, it's the games and graphics coprocessor. It does not have control of the system and could not be trusted even if every single line of code executing on it were mathematically proven.

      --
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    6. Re:All the other OS, too. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The article is completely correct about the way this works. It isn't even limited to phones either. The Raspberry Pi SoC, which is meant for set top boxes, uses the same type of architecture. When you run Linux on the Raspberry Pi it is completely sandboxed and all hardware accesses go through an abstraction layer provided by the device's real CPU, which runs a full operating system and is more powerful than the Arm core that runs Linux.

      Even the very simple hardware like serial ports can't be used directly. You must request that the main core memory maps them into the Arm core's address space - and it can refuse to do this if it wants. When you make OpenGL calls they are passed through to the real driver over an RPC mechanism which means you can't directly access the GPU hardware at all.

    7. Re:All the other OS, too. by YoopDaDum · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I believe the article has some gross exaggerations, and I'm in the baseband business. Of course I can't speak for all implementations, so this is my opinion only.

      When the baseband is in a separate die, connected with some interface like SDIO for QCOM, HSI, USB HSIC, ... there is no way that the baseband will control any host resources (unless it can exploit a bug in the host software of course). When the baseband is in the same die as the application processor (AP) and its resources, it becomes at least possible in theory for the BB to access AP resources. But think about it: why do we have process memory isolation and MMUs in the first place? And a kernel sitting between hardware and user space? For security and fault isolation. Do you really want to be the poor engineer having to debug a complex system on chip (SoC) where a bug in the BB part can create weird bugs in completely unrelated parts of the system handled by different teams? That looks like a recipe for disaster. In the systems I work on you have hardware isolation between subsystems to prevent just this. And then a compromised BB can't do a lot of damage (same as for a separate die BB).

      I believe the article is a bit sensationalistic and miss the real danger: a compromised base station. That's what the source articles quoted talk about. If you can compromise a cell you can spy traffic without any attack on the UE (encryption is only between device and cell). A fake cell is an issue with 2G but since then authentication is mutual: in LTE a device do authenticate the cell too, and won't work with a fake one. But that doesn't protect against a compromised cell. This is a risk with small and femto cells mostly, as macro cells are easier to protect. The only interest as see in compromising the BB is to use it as a vector to attack the host processor (which has been done), where you have access to much more interesting stuff. This requires a security exploit on the host side too. On its own the BB isn't really very interesting as an attack target.

      While I'm at it, there are others not very serious claims here. The fact that one can redirect calls to voice mail with an AT command has nothing to do with baseband security. An baseband support a control interface, and even usually two: 1) a modern but proprietary interface and 2) the standard but old fashioned AT interface. You can do a lot with these commands, no need to compromise the BB. But normally such access is limited to trusted applications, so if anyone can access this it's a host security issue, not a baseband issue.
      The baseband doesn't contain one RTOS but usually several instances. There's at least one RISC core (typically ARM), possibly more. At least one DSP, possibly more. With likely more than one OS: having an instance running linux is common, with other(s) on RTOS or even bare bone schedulers (depending on the complexity of the task at hand and timing constraints). That can vary a lot depending on each BB design, but as a rule of thumb for a modern LTE capable BB expect two RISC cores and two DSPs (YMMV).
      The mutual authentication I've talked about already. Here the practical issue is that when the next gen is out there's not much interest in doing big upgrades to previous generations. So the lack of network authentication in 2G will stay with us until 2G is phased out, which is still a few years away in most places (big Japan networks have already killed 2G however).

    8. Re:All the other OS, too. by dyingtolive · · Score: 1

      So... you found my dangling participle!

      --
      Support the EFF and Creative Commons. The war is coming, and they're supporting you...
    9. Re:All the other OS, too. by WaffleMonster · · Score: 1

      I do not fully trust the author because as far as I understand the baseband processor is supposed to control only the radio and nothing else. That means wifi, gsm and bluetooth. I don't understand why the baseband would have to deal with anything else, and why it would be the master processor and not just a blackbox "device" that the main OS sees and communicates with, in a properly isolated fashion. But then again I'm not knowledgeable enough to be certain about any of this.

      In some smartphones RAM is shared between baseband and application processors presumably to reduce the BOM/cost.

      In this case baseband effectively has root access it can read and write to anything it wants.

    10. Re:All the other OS, too. by nblender · · Score: 1

      Here's a straw-monkey ...

      Lets say I'm a company like ZTE or Huawei and I make my own BB part... My BB can theoretically have access to all SMS and IP traffic going through it. Could I not put a special hook waiting for just the right really long string in an SMS to suddenly start repeating all incoming/outgoing text messages to another phone number? Sure, this sort of thing would quickly show up on a users' cellphone bill unless they had an unltd texting plan or similar; which business users are more likely to have...

      I'm not in the BB business so I'm largely speaking out of my ass... But is it conceivable?

    11. Re:All the other OS, too. by umghhh · · Score: 1

      I do not trust all the conspiracy theories even tho I believe more than a year ago (thanx Snowden) still when I recall times I worked with a radio stack maker for one of the big mobile phones maker I realized these people have no control of what they do - the mess there was so big that I can imagine a consultant implanting big piece of spy software and nobody would have noticed. OTOH the general level of competence in this area was such that I would not trust this spying consultant to do the job properly so this piece of junk would not start or cause the phone crashing etc. These were good times back then - good wages a lots of bugs. Good times for QA guy.

    12. Re:All the other OS, too. by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Mini operating systems everywhere! Your USB flash drive has firmware in it. Your printer has a one. So does your graphics card. And so on. True, some of these are very tiny operating systems and some are more complex, some are fixed in ROM and others are upgradeable. But they're everywhere.

    13. Re: All the other OS, too. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the general case, the baseband processor is the MMU and so has access to all RAM on the phone, including that used by the application side.

      This is not necessarily new information however. Check out RPW's, "All Your Baseband Are Belong To Us.". (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQqv0v14KKY&feature=youtube_gdata_player)

    14. Re:All the other OS, too. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unless there is IOMMU that prevent the baseband to access all the RAM.

    15. Re: All the other OS, too. by i+ate+my+neighbour · · Score: 2

      I don't know how functional, but there are 2 free firmwares being discussed and used(by a few people) in the OpenMoko community. Apparently it is illegal to use a non-approved baseband firmware on public networks.

    16. Re: All the other OS, too. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes.
      I wish some band band engineers would pull their heads out of their asses when it comes to security and passing the buck.

    17. Re:All the other OS, too. by sjames · · Score: 1

      If the radio communicates through a narrow interface like USB, then yes, the risk is small.

      However, I know that on some devices part of rooting the phone includes updating the radio firmware so it will allow non-blessed OS firmware to load. That implies a LOT more than a USB interface that the main system can communicate with.

      In a setup like that, TFA is dead on and not at all exaggerating.

    18. Re:All the other OS, too. by VortexCortex · · Score: 1

      It does not have control of the system and could not be trusted even if every single line of code executing on it were mathematically proven.

      You talk a good talk, but that line is bullshit. If the DMA device can only affect a predetermined fixed region of memory then your statement is utterly wrong.

    19. Re:All the other OS, too. by georgeb · · Score: 1

      Yes. And, I repeat, this is not what the article is about. It's also conceivable (I'll leave plausibility aside) for a hard disk controller manufacturer to embed firmware code that activates when a block of data containing a pre-defined byte sequence is written or read, and bricks the hard disk. Useful? Maybe, if we're paranoid enough then all vendors are evil, all ISPs cooperate with NSA, all computer repair shops are in the government's pockets. The article is not about any of this however, and it's claims seem far more serious (and now, upon reading some really useful comments here, I also think it's mostly BS)

    20. Re:All the other OS, too. by YoopDaDum · · Score: 1

      In theory it is possible. In practice the network operator would see the extra traffic (so the NSA too it seems ;), so the risk to get caught red handed seems way too high to me. It could kill a brand.

      It's up to everyone to decide on their paranoia threshold and what they feel they need to protect against. But anyone who really cares about its own security and would trust 1) it's smartphone including a lot of closed source software even with Android 2) a complex baseband stack 3) a hugely complex operator network or even many for an international call, just doesn't get security. You want real secure? You need a trusted terminal host stack and and end-to-end secure connection (SRTP, or VoIP over a VPN, etc.). Then you don't have to trust anything in between as anything else just see encrypted traffic. You still have to trust the terminal host stack, so best if one can audit it. This is overkill for most. But that's what secure phones are, with a price to match.

    21. Re:All the other OS, too. by YoopDaDum · · Score: 1

      Then criticize such designs for being insecure, I'm fine with that. But rightfully criticizing a weak design, and condemning the whole of the cellular world are two different things. The article does the later and that's why I think there is exaggeration (with some errors and misunderstandings too).

    22. Re:All the other OS, too. by sjames · · Score: 1

      A great many phones are like that though. Enough that unless you know for a fact that yours isn't, you should assume that you face that risk.

    23. Re:All the other OS, too. by Arker · · Score: 1

      *IF* the DMA device is physically incapable of affecting memory outside a clearly defined area whose contents are never trusted by the ARM coprocessor then that could be true, but it's a big if and it has to be proven not assumed.

      --
      =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
      Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
    24. Re:All the other OS, too. by idontknowanything · · Score: 1

      On the contrary, the line is quite correct in most cases. The modem processor and the application processor are in the same chip and both have access to the same memory. Further, the modem actually boots up first and it loads the application processor's kernel in RAM before starting it. (the MSM7200 for example (the HTC Hero SoC): High level diagram and Boot documentation)

      So, if your modem processor is compromised it really is game over.

  14. Not a bug but a feature by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's important that the NSA be able to hack everyone's phone. It is wel known that each and every NSA contractor or employee is extremely honest while normal citizens are all wannabe criminals that must be monitored 24hours a day.

  15. SPY Sapping my Smartphone! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Naturally.... what did you expect?"
    "Well off to visit your mother!"

  16. What can go wrong? by Murdoch5 · · Score: 1

    Assuming the embedded developers are skilled and can craft excellent low level software in ASM and C then very little. If we assume they threw some co-op's on the job with some cocky young programmers and they used Object Oriented languages then a hell of a lot. However I feel pretty confident that the code is pretty low level because having done radio programming, you generally need to work at the architecture level and not abstracted by 10 levels. Of course the other option is that it's all VHDL / Verilog in which case I trust it almost completely because anyone skilled enough to do hardware design in VHDL / Verilog is going to be pretty hardcore.

    1. Re:What can go wrong? by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      Assuming the embedded developers are skilled and can craft excellent low level software in ASM and C then very little.

      Hell of an assumption, and yes, I've written low-level embedded code for stuff like this. I don't know how realistic this attack vector is (I worked on MAC/Phy stuff, and don't know the security arrangements of the higher layers), but it's incorrect to assume that otherwise good quality code is secure. Even top-notch coders make mistakes in things that are designed to be highly secure (e.g. SSH), and the sort of stuff being discussed is often designed with little thought to security. Whether it's realistically necessary to change that, I don't know. People here have advocated network security for CAN busses. Yeah, right guys, an ABS system has time to authenticate before deciding to stop your car. The problem is that non-embedded people think every 2-bit embedded processor should have software and security like a web server. Sometimes things like physical security are what you need.

      Of course the other option is that it's all VHDL / Verilog in which case I trust it almost completely because anyone skilled enough to do hardware design in VHDL / Verilog is going to be pretty hardcore.

      Doing that sort of logic design well requires skill, but don't be overly impressed by it. I've done lots of VHDL design and my wife tells myself Im nots no genyus.

    2. Re:What can go wrong? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have direct interaction with these folks. Qualcomm, TI, Motorola guys are very smart - from a radio technologies standpoint. Their software architecture and code quality is abysmal when compared to what are considered industry norms.

      I'd expect a group with sufficient motivation could easily compromise the radio processor and get it to do whatever they wanted.

    3. Re:What can go wrong? by Murdoch5 · · Score: 1

      You're totally correct that I errored in saying good coders don't make unsecure code, but generally the low level programmers just turn out more secure, stable and rock solid code. If I compare all the programmers I know who program in C / ASM and those who program in C++, C#, Java and etc... there is no comparison, the low level guys always produce better code. Infact when I interview new hires it's the one question I ask, if they tell me C is dead or ASM is dead then they have end up having a hard time getting a job.

      VHDL does require skill and yes anyone can do VHDL but it's such a pain in the ass to do that generally VHDL designers are just on another level, to program VHDL well you have to be an expert and pretty much touch nothing else.

    4. Re:What can go wrong? by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      generally the low level programmers just turn out more secure, stable and rock solid code

      At the risk of being a bit self-serving, I agree (at least when you're talking about embedded stuff). Working in higher level languages is not intrinsically bad, but the discipline that comes from the experience working in lower level languages is valuable (especially when speed is a big consideration). It's been years since I've done more than a few dozen lines of assembly here and there, but I always found it curious that I had the lowest bug rate per line when writing assembly (though that doesn't necessarily mean the lowest bug rate for a given functionality). It's such a tedious pain to write, read and debug assembly, that I go over everything very carefully before even trying to assemble it.

    5. Re:What can go wrong? by sjames · · Score: 1

      Flaws have already been discovered and exploited in the wild. I guess you know what that means.

    6. Re:What can go wrong? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Assuming the embedded developers are skilled and can craft excellent low level software in ASM and C then very little. If we assume they threw some co-op's on the job with some cocky young programmers and they used Object Oriented languages then a hell of a lot. However I feel pretty confident that the code is pretty low level because having done radio programming, you generally need to work at the architecture level and not abstracted by 10 levels. Of course the other option is that it's all VHDL / Verilog in which case I trust it almost completely because anyone skilled enough to do hardware design in VHDL / Verilog is going to be pretty hardcore.

      Speaking as someone who has coded in VHDL, Verilog, various assembly languages, C, C++, and Perl, I have to say that you are amusingly naive. Going deep down to where there's no more abstractions left means only that there are no abstractions left, not that you must be capable of writing good code to operate in that space. Some people are much, much better at creating abstractions from nothing than others. I have seen some shockingly bad Verilog and VHDL. Go look through some of the stuff posted on Opencores.org if you doubt its existence, and keep in mind that lots of that bad code has shipped in real chips. Just as with software, it's possible to polish turds enough to make them functional enough to be useful...

    7. Re:What can go wrong? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      VHDL does require skill and yes anyone can do VHDL but it's such a pain in the ass to do that generally VHDL designers are just on another level, to program VHDL well you have to be an expert and pretty much touch nothing else.

      I responded to you elsewhere but I also have to remark on this one, because this level of crazy hero worship of what I do bugs me. As flattering as it is to imagine that I'm some kind of untouchable elite, I can tell you from personal experience that no, you do not have to swear off everything else and obsess day and night over VHDL or Verilog. They're just languages, and anybody who's smart enough to quickly absorb any conventional programming language should be able to pick them up. The main skills you need in order to use them well are CE/EE undergrad level awareness of the logic circuit elements these two languages were designed to model, awareness of which sections of the language are usable only in the simulator, and a grasp of how these languages use apparently-sequential execution to model stuff which takes place in parallel in hardware. Those last two are the usual stumbling blocks for someone from a software background, but if you have an engineering background it really is not difficult.

      Like any other language or system, if it's what you do all day, you'll get rusty in other stuff (though many people who work on ASICs will tend to maintain more than a passing familiarity with Perl, shell scripts, and makefiles, because those are used extensively in many ASIC CAD environments). That doesn't mean that it demands obsessive monk-like concentration just to maintain the ability to write VHDL or Verilog code. They're really rather simple languages when you get down to it. VHDL tends to overcomplicate some things, but it mostly boils down to having to type extra syntactic sugar. Neither one is anything nearly as complex as, say, C++ under the hood. In fact, it's much easier to mentally predict what the "compiler" is likely to construct from any given piece of source code than it is in C++, since there's no operator overloading, templates, etc.

  17. Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I think the IATA would have has something to say if that were really the case.

  18. Why stop there? by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1, Funny

    Why stop there? Every cell phone also runs on an operating system called QM (quantum mechanics). Hack that and you can make the phone do all sorts of really cool things.

    1. Re:Why stop there? by Anon,+Not+Coward+D · · Score: 2

      but if someone devices an exploit for QM, the phone will be compromised and not... at the same time

      --
      Sometimes it's better not having signature
    2. Re:Why stop there? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Schrodinger's Kitkat?

    3. Re:Why stop there? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Energy Department on November 6 announced eight teams to spur solar power deployment by cutting red tape for residential and small commercial rooftop solar systems. As part of the Department's Rooftop Solar Challenge, these teams will receive about $12 million—matched by more than $4 million in outside funding—to streamline and standardize solar permitting, zoning, metering, and connection processes for communities across the country.
      The Energy Department’s Rooftop Solar Challenge is a part of a larger effort to make solar energy more accessible and affordable and position the United States as a leader in the rapidly-growing global solar market. Non-hardware, or "soft," costs like permitting, installation, design and maintenance now account for more than 60% of the total cost of installed rooftop photovoltaic (PV) systems in the United States. Across the nation, there are more than 18,000 local jurisdictions with their own PV permitting requirements as well as more than 5,000 utilities that set rules for connecting to the power grid.
      The Rooftop Solar Challenge, managed by the Energy Department's SunShot Initiative, brings together city, county, and state officials; regulatory entities; private industry; universities; local utilities; and other regional stakeholders to address differing and expensive processes required to install and finance residential and small business solar systems. During the Challenge’s first round, 22 regional teams worked to dramatically reduce the soft costs of solar—serving as models for other communities across the country. These efforts helped cut permitting time by 40% and reduce fees by more than 10%—making it faster and easier for more than 47 million Americans to install solar.
      Building on the Challenge’s first round, the eight announced teams will help further expand the reach of innovative strategies that are making it easier, faster, and cheaper for more homeowners and businesses to finance and install solar systems. These awardees will develop and replicate creative solutions that help standardize complicated permitting and interconnection processes that often vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction; facilitate easy, cheaper bulk purchasing; and support user-friendly, fast online applications. For example, The New England Solar Cost-Reduction Partnership will build a thriving regional solar market by increasing coordination across Connecticut, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, and Vermont and refining and deploying innovations developed in Connecticut and Massachusetts during Rooftop Solar Challenge I.

    4. Re:Why stop there? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Care to elaborate? I sincerely think you are up onto something. But I still don't know the, well, technique.

  19. Baseband processors by benjfowler · · Score: 1

    I learnt recently that these baseband processors are controlled over a serial connection, and talk old-school Hayes AT commands.

    So if this is true, then it should be reasonably easy for hobbyists to buy baseband processors off the shelf and interface them to microcontrollers or Arduino or whatever fairly easily, and get instant Wi-fi/Bluetooth/cellular data support?

    1. Re:Baseband processors by tgd · · Score: 1

      I learnt recently that these baseband processors are controlled over a serial connection, and talk old-school Hayes AT commands.

      So if this is true, then it should be reasonably easy for hobbyists to buy baseband processors off the shelf and interface them to microcontrollers or Arduino or whatever fairly easily, and get instant Wi-fi/Bluetooth/cellular data support?

      Yes, and pretty much every site that sells Arduinos and other microcontrollers sell them.

      Have you never actually looked? Do a search on "GSM" on any of those sites, there's a zillion modules with various GSM chipsets. Trivial to make calls, handle data, send/receive SMS, etc ...

    2. Re:Baseband processors by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      I know you can buy modules like that for embedded designs. I don't know where a hobbyist can get something with a power supply and an RS-232 port, but I find it hard to believe that nobody makes it. As long as all the wireless protocol stuff is in the module, it should be possible to get a cert.

    3. Re:Baseband processors by bruce_the_loon · · Score: 1

      Sparkfun has them for $50. https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10138

      --
      Trying to become famous by taking photos. Visit my homepage please.
  20. probably the most secure part of the phone.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    This post makes it sound as if the phone radio controller is completely unhardened- that couldn't be farther from the truth! In most phones, they are so isolated from the main OS that even root access won't get you anywhere on that controller, other than sending control messages that are within its intended use.

    In the case of the iPhone baseband, there hasn't been a new exploit (to enable unlocking) in years! And it's certainly not for lack of trying. The only successful current unlocks use man-in-the-middle attacks in the form of a specialized SIM.

    1. Re:probably the most secure part of the phone.... by ebno-10db · · Score: 2

      There talking about a situation where the attack vector is over-the-air, not via the secondary processor (the correct name for the thing that runs games instead of a radio). I don't know whether this is realistic, but it is what's being discussed.

  21. Exploits for baseband processors by benjfowler · · Score: 5, Informative

    Baseband hacking article: "Baseband Hacking: A New Frontier for Smartphone Break-Ins"

    http://readwrite.com/2011/01/18/baseband_hacking_a_new_frontier_for_smartphone_break_ins#awesm=~on54yB5zHMVt93

    Apparently, the firmware in baseband processors don't get updated a lot because of certification requirements, vendor laziness, etc, and certain well-funded attackers have swags of exploits for phones that can crack phones from over-the-air through the baseband processor itself.

    1. Re:Exploits for baseband processors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'll let Homer speak for me. "Why, that's crazy talk!"

      Not.

    2. Re:Exploits for baseband processors by YoopDaDum · · Score: 1

      "Certification requirements" is the key thing here, and it's a lot of work for vendors (can't really be lazy and succeed in this space ;).

      Spectrum is a shared medium, and the worst jammer is a buggy device. Because of this there are strict certification requirements before being legally allowed to put a device over the air. And going through all the associated tests cost a lot of money: it's a lot of time with expensive testing hardware and in the field (after passing the "safe for network" part). It's expensive both for operators and vendors by the way. This cost make everyone quite conservative. Any change will go through a cost assessment. So it's not that they don't care about security, they do and even if there has been holes in the old versions a lot of work go into making the system secure. But not at any price.

      To be practical, the target is good enough security for the average person. And that's ok. If you really have higher protection requirements than this, there is no way but having your own controlled end-to-end scheme. I would expect anyone claiming security is critical and taking this seriously to have figured this out.

    3. Re:Exploits for baseband processors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If I were in bed with NSA-GCHQ, I would emit the same excuses.

      Here, THE FIX: http://scherbius2014.de

  22. Everything has software by saider · · Score: 4, Informative

    By this logic, even your computer has multiple operating systems. The chipset on your motherboard is not pure hardware - there are small cores in there running embedded software that you never see. I am not talking about BIOS, which is another type of firmware, that is visible to the user.

    EVERYTHING these days has software. Shipping a software patch is cheaper than a recall. This goes back to the old joke - the mechanical engineer thinks it is an electrical problem, the electrical engineer thinks it is a mechanical problem, but they both agree that it should be fixed in software.

    This story reminds me of the Simpsons episode where Kent Brockman breaks a story about the government training people to kill on an industrial scale. "They call it the 'Army', but I have a better name - Killbot Factory".

    --


    Remember, You are unique...just like everyone else.
    1. Re:Everything has software by ebno-10db · · Score: 2

      By this logic, even your computer has multiple operating systems. The chipset on your motherboard is not pure hardware - there are small cores in there running embedded software that you never see.

      But unlike a cell phone, not every embedded processor is directly connected to a public network.

  23. News for nerds by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Did anyone here really not know this?
    This has been the case since forever. In fact, this is BETTER (if done right), used to be it was a hardcoded OS in the actual hardware itself, this is actually capable of being upgraded in the case of exploits.

    I think a more pressing concern is that the internet is still based entirely on TRUST.
    Trust which is being broken more and more each year.

  24. Binary blobs forever by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Lessee, Mitnick was busted in what, '95 or so, using a switch simulator? So, in 20 years, bad actors on all sides of the law, including generations of Feds and cops camped out at cell switches bullshitting with engineers, have not come up with ways to hack your cell phone that they can take to the local *cough* *ahem* underground electronics designer, or else, or some pliant security engineer, to implement? Yeah, right, sure. Actually it's probably closer to 30 years. Just assume your phone is pwned, never mind iOS or Android. Is that why Verizon Fraud keeps trying to social me into a compromised position-they're recruting? No thanks, the pay SUX!

    Nah, I want (NOT!) one of those PHAT JUICY DHS grant contracts like the City of Seattle recently gave Aruba(sic?) for their new mesh network total spectrum surveillance/dominance platform, complete with kill switches to disable phones when the Pinkertons pull out their batons to crack skulls. Apparently they could do this all along but just needed the cover to admit it. Why else are we reading TFA now, when I've always wondered about it, and wondered why it got no play? I assumed it was because somebody $BIG wanted it that way. Or else. Guess I was right.

    Time to certify an open-source baseband-processor/RTOS combo. Day late, dollar short, barn door closing, but necessary, and maybe ultimately sufficient.

  25. "What could possibly go wrong?" by csumpi · · Score: 1

    What could possibly go wrong?

    Oh that's easy.

    People who have no effin idea what the hell they are talking about, but feel compelled to spew their opinion and ask stupid questions. You can find them all over the internets and the workplace.

  26. And what makes you think by Marrow · · Score: 1

    that any of those strangers are "random". :)

  27. What could possibly go wrong? by jasonq · · Score: 0

    Oh, i don't know... maybe I could get my iPhone unlocked?

  28. Doesn't match the architecture. by DrYak · · Score: 4, Informative

    I do not fully trust the author because as far as I understand the baseband processor is supposed to control only the radio and nothing else. That means wifi, gsm and bluetooth.

    Usually, wifi is handled by another chip, with its own different firmware. This might have started changing now with more consolidation sought by system integrators.
    Frequently GPS is also handled by the radio sub-system.
    (That's why you have feature phone with GSM + Bluetooth but no Wifi, that's also why Wifi only tablets also lack GPS [early iPads, for exemple]. )
    In some rare occurrences, this chip can also communicate with SD cards (it has a SPI interconnect).
    (That's very frequent in USB 3G/4G modems. It's basically a standard radio chip, with the bluetooth and GPS function turned off and packaged inside an USB stick, with a SD card reader as a bonus. But instead of talking to a main system ARM runing Android, it talks over an USB chip to a whole computer/laptop running Linux or Windows. Note that recent exploit mentioned on /. found way around the firmware limitation, and forcefully turned the Bluetooth on, creating a possible extra entry point and thus extending the attack surface)

    I don't understand why the baseband would have to deal with anything else, and why it would be the master processor and not just a blackbox "device" that the main OS sees and communicates with, in a properly isolated fashion.

    Yup. For all the designs I've seen (and some smart phones have 100% fully open designs, such as the various OpenMoko boards), the radio chip is just a blackbox device talking over some limited channel to the main SoC (in OpenMoko GTA02/03 it's something imitating a serial interface. There's not much difference between an old PC talking to an anolog modem over serial and a openmoko talking to the radio chip).

    Then usually the main SoC talks to the other peripherals: RAM is directly soldered to the CPU in a Package-over-Package fashion, so it's completely innaccessible. Camera, sound chip, memory card, charger controller are also connected to the SoC on other channels (SPI, I2C, etc.)

    But then again I'm not knowledgeable enough to be certain about any of this.

    When thinking hard there would be a few broken design were this could happen.
    Note that such designs are to be considered broken. Having so little isolation toward the chip that is constantly talking to the outside and downloading updates is a serious security and stability issue.

    And stability *IS* an issue: I've had problems with old phone (not supported anymore by constructor) having bad updates on their modem and having problems.
    (Once I need to call my service provider and then, after a long debuging session and several tentative upgrade [over the air], I ended-up changing SIM).

    Possible such bat design:

    - Fully integrated chips: where one single chip is repsonsible for everything on the phone.
    That's the situation with QualComm's Snapdragon. Okay, the phone maker will spare an extra chip and room on the PCB.
    But that's pure nightmare fuel regarding security and stability.
    (When a HP Pre 3's modem crashes, the whole phone freezes and crashes. There are entire forum threads about this).

    - Everything on the same bus: several common interconnect in smartphone (like SPI) can talk to several chips on the same bus.
    If the SoC (of course), the Camera, audio codec AND the radio are all on the same bus, the radio chip could pull some shit and disturb the bus (to act as if it was a master and turn on the camera, then listen on the bus to eavesdrop audio and video packet which where destined to the main SoC).
    That's an awful design, both from a security point of view (the modem should be considered untrusted) and quality (a crashed radio could crash other component, also they have all to share the very limited bandwith on the bus: SPI has only 100Mbit/s, for instance).
    The modem should b

    --
    "Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
  29. Xerox by DrYak · · Score: 1

    Yup, that's why I said my "post-card example with manual handling" doesn't do justice to current reality.
    You need to add a bunch of lunatics with a strange fetish for Xerox machine to make it more similar to today's situation.
    And according to you source, there *are* actual copy-machine-fetishist in post offices.

    --
    "Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
  30. My old phone probably got fried for this reason by unne · · Score: 1

    Back in 2002 I used a Siemens "world phone" (capable of using the American GSM frequencies) that I had bought to be able to use it both in Sweden and in the US with Voicestream. This worked great, but shortly after T-Mobile purchased Voicestream, my phone started having random freezes which I felt sure was because of changes to their network and how it communicated with the phone. I complained about it to T-Mobile and simply got informed that they didn't "support" my phone. The freezes happened every two days or so, and the only fix was to remove the battery and put it back in for a reboot.

    One day this must have happened during the night when the phone was charging. When I checked it in the morning it was completely dead, very very hot and never turned on again. Seems to me the freeze caused it to keep charging when it should have sensed a full charge and stopped.

  31. Nothing to see here... by MikeDataLink · · Score: 1

    There's a tiny OS running on your CDROM drive, your external USB hard drive, your BlueTooth Mouse, etc. This isn't just a cell phone issue.

    --
    Mike @ The Geek Pub. Let's Make Stuff!
    1. Re:Nothing to see here... by Lumpy · · Score: 0

      No they dont.
      There is no Operating System on your cdrom drive. it has a firmware running a very specific task, There is no operating system on it.

      I am tired of people calling everything an OS, it's not.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operating_system

      You do not run other programs on your CD Rom drive.. it runs it's specific software on the bare iron without an OS.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  32. makes little sense by stenvar · · Score: 1

    Lastly, the baseband processor is usually the master processor, whereas the application processor (which runs the mobile operating system) is the slave.

    I don't know what that's supposed to mean. AFAIK, the wireless modem is just a device from the point of view of Android or iOS. In addition (depending on the phone), it may also have a direct path to the microphone and speaker in order to make "old fashioned" phone calls. Other than that, in what way is it supposed to interact with cameras, memory, or storage, and why?

    1. Re:makes little sense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He's referring to Qualcomm application/baseband combo processors.

      In those, the baseband processor is the first to start execution, has access to all the hardware, and mediates access to the application processor, and is responsible for halting and starting it. It's essentially a slave to the baseband processor. It has sometimes been the only real avenue of attack against the application processor since they have the ability to write protect flash virtually for the application processor (they share the same hardware blocks, the baseband simply has security control over them).

    2. Re:makes little sense by sjames · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, that is incorrect. The baseband processor is more like a BMC. It has access to the main system RAM and can bypass the 'main' CPU entirely. It can stuff what it wants where it wants in RAM and then make the user CPU execute it. That includes patching the kernel in RAM on the fly.

      Consider it as a persistent threat. Wipe your data and re-flash the OS and you are STILL bugged.

    3. Re:makes little sense by stenvar · · Score: 1

      That may be true on some devices, but I seriously doubt it's true on all of them. Clearly, on some devices, the wireless modem is really just a USB-connected modem with no special privileges.

      How would that even be implemented in arbitrary hardware? Many CPUs don't have provisions for arbitrary external access to memory.

      Do you have any links describing how this is supposed to work?

    4. Re:makes little sense by sjames · · Score: 1

      Practically all phones are ARM based and ARM supports JTAG. There is nothing even remotely new about bus master devices accessing memory for themselves (all the major internal busses support that) protection against that is a much more recent development in the x86 world through the IOMMU. Most built-in graphics use 'shared memory' meaning that their memory is a reserved chunk of main memory.

      This all dates back to the early days on PCs (even before PC and x86 were synonymous). DMA = Direct Memory Access and the old IBM PC and other PCs of that era had it. Mainframes in the '70s had a similar concept.

      Unfortunately, I don't have good links for this. It's a combination of experiance developing embedded devices and there being no other explanation. For example, on HTC phones (Qualcomm Snapdragon), flashing the Radio disables the protection of the flash memory to allow a bootloader update. But flash the wrong radio firmware and the phone is a brick (rather than becoming a non-cellular mini tablet). That can only be true if the baseband is more than a USB serial device.

      For a system on chip, there is a strong motivation for the tighter coupling. If the baseband can see main memory, it doesn't have to have it's own private memory on the SOC. If it can see the sound card, it doesn't have to have it's own.

    5. Re:makes little sense by stenvar · · Score: 1

      This all dates back to the early days on PCs (even before PC and x86 were synonymous). DMA = Direct Memory Access and the old IBM PC and other PCs of that era had it. Mainframes in the '70s had a similar concept.

      For regular DMA, arbitrary external devices can't just initiate DMA to anywhere in memory; when, where, how, and if, is under CPU control.

      Most built-in graphics use 'shared memory' meaning that their memory is a reserved chunk of main memory.

      That's fine, but it doesn't contain instructions, and which part of memory is shared is again under CPU control.

      Practically all phones are ARM based and ARM supports JTAG

      AFAIK, JTAG can be disabled under CPU control.

      If the baseband can see main memory, it doesn't have to have it's own private memory on the SOC. If it can see the sound card, it doesn't have to have it's own.

      If the baseband CPU used the same memory as the main CPU, vulnerability and control would be symmetric, which is not what the article claims.

      It makes sense for the baseband and the main CPU to share some memory and I/O resources. Compromising the baseband CPU might allow an attacker to listen in, but that's always been the case.

      But the only way I see in which the baseband CPU can corrupt the main CPU is via JTAG. But while some manufacturers might wire the main CPU's JTAG and boot loader to baseband, I'd be surprised if that were universally true. What would be the point? And there are certainly devices where that isn't the case because the only connection between the cellular modem and the main CPU is via USB.

      As I was saying, I'd like to see more technical details. Based on the information I have, it's hard to see whether this is a widespread problem, and the people raising alarm over this haven't really explained themselves well enough. (Don't get me wrong: there are plenty of security problems with baseband, and there are many other attacks; the question is whether this particular attack is likely or common.)

    6. Re:makes little sense by sjames · · Score: 1

      Actually, GPU access to main memory is controlled by a GART, not the CPU. The CPU programs the GART before activating the GPU. In newer PCs, the IOMMU (not the CPU) controls the ability of cards on the bus to access memory. Yes, programmed by the CPU. However, older PCs and some current embedded devices have no IOMMU. JTAG is not generally under CPU control but I have seen setups where the BMC controls JTAG.

      But if you're just concerned with any security problem with the baseband, consider that they're connected to the microphone. You don't need to get all the way in to the user CPU to turn the phone into a bug.

      Consider too that something on the user side of that USB-serial connection is involved in the communication. I wonder how trusting it is considering that it's an 'internal only' connection?

    7. Re:makes little sense by stenvar · · Score: 1

      But if you're just concerned with any security problem with the baseband, consider that they're connected to the microphone. You don't need to get all the way in to the user CPU to turn the phone into a bug.

      Why are you restating the obvious? That's been long known. That can't fiddle with my bank statements or grab my text chats, though. The question is whether the new vulnerability the article talks about is real or not.

      JTAG is not generally under CPU control but I have seen setups where the BMC controls JTAG. ... Actually, GPU access to main memory is controlled by ... Consider too that something on the user side of that USB-serial connection ...

      None of that amounts to what the article claims. Is there any plausible mechanism by which the baseband CPU could conceivably access and alter all of smartphone memory across a wide range of devices as the article claims? I don't know of any. Standard DMA, graphics memory, JTAG, and USB do not have the capability.

      I'm sure there are lots of security problems in lots of smartphones, involving baseband, and any of these other features. But I don't know of anything that amounts to a generic vulnerability due to a ubiquitous "master/slave" relationship between the baseband and the smartphone CPU as claimed in the article.

    8. Re:makes little sense by sjames · · Score: 1

      Based on the information I have, it's hard to see whether this is a widespread problem, and the people raising alarm over this haven't really explained themselves well enough.

      I would say that just the microphone and baseband exposed to the base station is more than enough reason for alarm all by itself.

    9. Re:makes little sense by stenvar · · Score: 1

      I would say that just the microphone and baseband exposed to the base station is more than enough reason for alarm all by itself.

      That's been publicly known for more than a decade, and it's been widely used by police and spy agencies.

    10. Re:makes little sense by idontknowanything · · Score: 1

      I don't know what you mean by "arbitrary hardrware" but in the android world it is normal for the modem and application processor to be in the same chip and to use the same RAM.

      Take the MSM7200 for example (the HTC Hero SoC): High level diagram, Boot documentation, Software Interface Manual.

      As you can see both the application processor and the modem processor are on the same chip and access the same memory. The modem processor starts up first and is reposnible for eventually starting up the application processor after putting its kernel in RAM. And there is nothing particularly strange about this configuration.

    11. Re:makes little sense by stenvar · · Score: 1

      So it seems like the problem isn't with the way modern smartphones are designed in general, but with systems that put the baseband and the general purpose CPUs on the same chip.

    12. Re:makes little sense by idontknowanything · · Score: 1

      Well, I think the tendency is that "the way modern smartphones are designed in general" is to use this kind of setup. For example, take a look at the Snapdragon SoC usage in smartphones. All of these have this type of design.

  33. Old news by YoungManKlaus · · Score: 1

    remember c3 talks about spy software on sim cards already years ago

  34. The Chinese Middleman by cloud.pt · · Score: 1

    So this must be how Chinese smartphone manufacturers are sniffing cell data...

  35. PalmOS? by GodWasAnAlien · · Score: 1

    Perhaps the article was written in 2006?

  36. Old school meme.. by greywire · · Score: 1

    And I for one welcome our hidden RTOS overlords. I’d like to remind them that as a trus+++ATH0.!d#dG$adf...

    --
    -- Senior Software Engineer, Attorney appearance services, locallawyerapp.com.
    1. Re:Old school meme.. by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      Amazing. An AT command set joke that is actually viable in 2013? Who would have imagined it possible?

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    2. Re:Old school meme.. by greywire · · Score: 1

      Whats more amazing is that you might actually be able to do this to somebody on a cell phone in 2013 with commands from 1981, on some level... (too bad you can't just text somebody +++ATH0 and have hilarity ensue)

      --
      -- Senior Software Engineer, Attorney appearance services, locallawyerapp.com.
  37. Baseband vs Apps by unixisc · · Score: 1

    A phone - simply put - contains 2 parts - the Applications, & the Baseband. The former is the stuff we generally discuss here - Android, iOS, Windows Phone 8, BlackBerry OS and what have you. The latter is the stuff that the submission talks about.

    There really isn't a need for there to be any filters on the baseband, since it has essentially 2 roles:

    1. 1. Convert the RF signals into digital signals that the system receives
    2. 2. Translate the digital signals into inputs that go into the apps portion of the phone

    The apps portion would then take care of any filtering, or other operations. In other words, think of the baseband as an I/O unit of the phone, and the apps processor as the CPU that takes that I/O & processes it according to the OS.

  38. Fearmongering from the uneducated.... by Lumpy · · Score: 1

    Your phone's radio does not have an OS, I think the poster needs to learn about embedded systems and what the firmware in these things do.

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    1. Re:Fearmongering from the uneducated.... by idontknowanything · · Score: 1

      I think the poster needs to learn about embedded systems and what the firmware in these things do.

      I think this applies much more to you than the poster. If you bothered to read the article, you would have seen that it links to a presentation about reverse engineering basebands, which clearly shows that there is an RTOS running there (REX OS)

  39. Re:1+1+1=3 3!=2 by Lumpy · · Score: 1

    not all SIM cards have a java engine in them. AT&T's latest do not.

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  40. Old news is so exciting! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This story brought to by 2011. 2011, the year Ralf-Philipp Weinmann did all this work, to which this author has added literally nothing.

    Stay tuned for breaking reports on the possible death of Moammar Gadhafi.

  41. Nothing at all like a Cable or DSL modem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The situation isn't that much different as a desktop user connecting to the internet over a xDSL/Cable/whatever modem without first overwriting its firmware with a secure one

    WTF. It's extremely different.

    I know for sure that my untrusted modem does not have access to any information that my trusted computer hasn't opted to send to it. The untrusted modem doesn't have keys to mount my drives, doesn't have a connection to my microphone, doesn't have access to the RAM which holds the keys to decrypt the packets that I'm sending through it to the ISP, and so on. The two devices are in different enclosures and I know what's happening on the wire in between them.

    A user doesn't have any fucking idea what's happening inside their phone, even at the hardware level. Have you taken it apart and examined the circuit board? There's no way to be sure what hardware the untrusted part of the system might have access to. The untrusted part could easily have a covert channel to the microphone, camera, the other computer's RAM (where it could get keys, not that it really needs 'em if it can listen to the mic and speaker and see what's on the screen and where the user touched), etc.

  42. Hayes command set awesomeness by mveloso · · Score: 1

    it's unbelievable that the hayes command set is still in use today. I can just see someone thousands of years from now typing this into their cellphone to get free calls:

    +++
    OK
    ATH
    ATQ
    ATDT 123 456 7890
    CONNECT 3000000000000000

  43. wtf-am-i-reading.jpg by FuzzNugget · · Score: 3, Informative

    This is called "firmware", dipshit.

    Non-story, move along.

  44. Ah, the lightbulb goes on! by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 1

    Back then security experts advised to remove the battery before you discussed secrets in a corporate or government setting, in order to avoid falling victim to espionage.

    And now I realize the main motivator for non-removable batteries in phones (and laptops for that matter).

  45. no way by Chirs · · Score: 1

    The energy required to send back to the basestation is going to be in the same region as the original signal at source, not once it's been spread out and dissipated...

    Sorry, no. The antenna on a cell tower puts out a far stronger signal than your phone, and is also much more sensitive at receiving incoming signals.

  46. Oh please it's not like they use that to track u by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

    I mean, if they used that second OS layer to track you, they'd be setting up inconspicous WiFi tracking cell stations in all major cities that literally know exactly who you are and where you are even when you think your cell phone is off.

    Like those recently reported in Seattle on The Stranger.

    Don't be paranoid.

    By the way, I like your new shirt.

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
  47. Radio Modems - New Features by Eddy_D · · Score: 2
    It is true that some newer Radio modems (eg. Telit models and now some new models from Cinterion) have the ability to run scripted programs on the baseband processor. I played with a Telit modem that could run Python scripts. I really don't think that the commercial modems that normal smartphones use would have that capability though.. it would be a dumb thing for the modem manufacture to add in.

    Likely the smartphone modem will also have a GSM chipset (eg. Qualcomm) as well; this is mainly separate from the baseband processor and have limited contact with it (eg. maybe need some AT commands to control the GSM modes).

    In general, the firmware running on a baseband processor is very hard to change. Changes to that processor must be re-vetted through several approval processes (PTCRB and usually one or more carrier, eg. AT&T) and consume time and money. It is for this reason that you cannot program your own code into this processor (I'm guessing scripts don't count as a program as they are sandboxed within an internal VM-like system).

    --
    - I stole your sig.
  48. RMS Richard Stallman does not carry a mobile phone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Richard Stallman mentioned something about this w.r.t surveillance and why he does not carry a mobile phone.

  49. This might be the source of "Roving Bug" tech by logicassasin · · Score: 1

    http://news.cnet.com/2100-1029-6140191.html

    Many of you have probably forgotten about this incident that drew attention to the FBI's ability to turn on a phone's features even while it's off. I would assume that the two (baseband processor and "roving bug") are connected.

    --
    Fifty watts per channel, baby cakes.
  50. Good For Spy Agencies by RevSpaminator · · Score: 1

    It's nice to know that no matter what you do the big spy agencies out there will always have a back door into your phone.

  51. Die Fehlerbehebung by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Obviously, the Great 1984 Snooping Powers want to subvert and track every single information system. GCHQ says this quite openly in their Snowden powerpoint slides.

    So what's the engineering solution ? Use something like the ENIGMA, TYPEX or SIGABA. Run it in a completely disconnected computer so that they cannot insert their GovShite. Then use any form of NSA-GCHQ telecom system (iphone will do fine, but you can also use alcatel) to enter and txmit the cryptogram.

    Here: http://scherbius2014.de

    Sorry, no english translation yet. Use Google translate for the time being.

  52. Qualcomm == BAD! by DrYak · · Score: 1

    "Modem firmware is non-free and there is no free alternative" and another saying "The modem controls CPU memory (read/write)".

    That's typical for Qualcomm devices. The Radio chip is part of the main SoC. And thus could have access to everything. Replicant apparently confirms it.
    Qualcomm sell it as an advantage (Less separate components, space saved on PCB).
    But the implications are awful, both from a security point of view (As mentionned by TFA) and from a stability point of view (I've mentioned it in another post: HP Pre^3 tend to crash very badly when their old and non supported radio firmware encounters an unexpected situation). This should be considered as a very bad design and not worth the few saved bugs. The good part is: part of the problems (stabilities issues) are directly consumer facing. So even not technically inclined people are able to understand it and avoid such phones.
    It's not on the paranoid-level "The NSA might use to spy on you !" (Which, while possibly true, tends to be immediately dismissed by the average user as "they thing they're not interesting").
    It's on the level of "This phone crashes constantly now, and my ISP doesn't want to support it because it is more than 5 months old and I should buy another one".

    The closest thing to a free phone is one of the OpenMoko phones. They still use a proprietary modem, but it communicates over SPI, and the main CPU is the master.

    Have one, it does indeed functions this way. Several other phones seem to follow this design.
    (Make sense from a stability/security point of view: if some try to hack the radio, or if the radio chip crashes, the phone is still safe, and will simply reset the radio chip or ask politely the user to save work and power-cycle at the first possible occasion. Older Pre from Palm work that way too.)
    Also this make it easier to have a base design working in different region (just swap the daughter board with the radio chip to make both GSM and CDMA phones depending on the target markets)
    Also possible to do a design without a a daughter board for PDAs and tablets (difference between Wifi-only tablet and tablet with Wifi+3G+GPS).

    --
    "Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
    1. Re:Qualcomm == BAD! by cool_arrow · · Score: 1

      Several other phones seem to follow this design.

      I'm interested to know the other phones that also follow this design. Thanks.

    2. Re:Qualcomm == BAD! by idontknowanything · · Score: 1

      The list includes, but is not limited to, everything that uses Snapdragon SoCs for example. Some are listed here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snapdragon_(system_on_chip)

    3. Re:Qualcomm == BAD! by idontknowanything · · Score: 1

      Oops, sorry, I misread the post you were quoting. The thing I linked to is for phones who DO have radio and processor together and sharing memory, so the opposite of what you were actually asking.

  53. Public Policy by Design by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A separate hardware/software system for handling radio is nothing new. It is the same reason why drivers for WiFi cards have binary blobs from the manufacturer. The radio spectrum is a Federal zone (US Constitution Article 1 Section 8) in which Congress (as the FCC) gets to exercise powers apart from the Bill of Rights like legislatures elsewhere in the world are accustomed to exercise [Downes v. Bidwell]. FCC sets the rules on how devices use the spectrum and they have made the (correct) assumption that the device will be used to abuse the spectrum or permit unauthorized parties to spy on others. Ergo, keep the transceiver away from the public.

    Another fine opinion by The Fucking Psychopath®.

  54. Without any exploit mitigation by ashpool7 · · Score: 1

    Somebody please tell the iPhone dev team that baseband security is so bad. They've been terrible at finding and exploiting these problems since the A5 baseband in the iPhone 4S.

    â¦. :-P

  55. design: check for tear-down by DrYak · · Score: 1

    I'm interested to know the other phones that also follow this design. Thanks.

    Saddly, I'm not an expert in phones, so I can't give you an exhaustive list.

    A good way to start would be to check the tear-downs (like ifixit and other similar).
    That will give a good global idea of the internals.
    (3G on a separate daugther board is better than 3G as a separate chip, which in turn is better than an all-in-one SoC)

    Also, check the ARM CPU of a phone. If the CPU advertises an All-in-One SoC including 3G/4G, that a very bad sign.
    On the other hand, if the CPU is just ARM Cores + GFX and other similar basic functionality and doesn't pack a 3G/4G function (like, for example Ti OMAP or Samsung Exynos) that's a good start.

    As mentioned by the A.C. to whom I was replying, looking at a full-opensource firmware like replicant is another good source of info:
    - if they mention that a radio firmware is absolutely mandatory to bring up the device, even for basic functionnality like enabling access to RAM, that's a very bad sign (as the case with Replicant on the Snapdragon's NexusOne).
    - if they mention that, for example, they lack a 100% opensource firmware and because of this 3G and GPS* aren't functional, but everything else is working more or less, that's a very good sign that the 3G is designed in the "separate independant black-box format" as would be best.

    *: sometime, GPS functionnality is handled by the radio chip too.
    In theory, that would be a security problem (an "NSA firmware" on radio chip could track the phone's position using GPS)
    In practice, that's not so much a securtiy problem: you have to realise that the 3G chip constantly communicate with a cell tower, and thus your service provider already knows your position without even using a GPS, but simply by looking with which towers your phone communicates.
    In fact using cell towers (and Wifi access points) is a crude substitute for positionning when GPS isn't available. It might not be enough for driving instruction (no way to clearly know how many centimeters/meters until the next right turn) but it's enough to give an approximate position (city block or couple of streets).
    A GPS functionnality on the same chip as 3G won't give out any information that isn't already known.
    It's not problematic from a point of view of security, only stability (a crashed radio firmware suddenly causes the phone to lose positionning, whereas a separate GPS chip would continue to give un-corrected position (only losing the extra precision that differential gps could provide using data sent from the tower).

    --
    "Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]