ATF Tests Show 3D Printed Guns Can Explode

Lucas123 writes "The ATF has been testing 3D printed guns over the past year and, not surprisingly, has found that depending on the thermoplastics, 3D printers and CAD designs used, some can explode on the first attempt to shoot them. The ATF published videos this week of the tests on YouTube showing what looked like a Liberator model of a 3D gun exploding upon being fired. Another model, created with the popular ABS polymer and an advanced printer, could fire as many as 8 shots. The tests were published at a time when a law passed in 1988 banning the sale of guns made entirely of plastic is set to expire next month." I hope they post the videos when they do the same tests on Solid Concepts' 1911.

Comments

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[turkeydance]

metal guns explode, too.

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[cayenne8]

Is this the same federal govt that developed movies and campaigns saying that smoking pot would cause you to go insane, kill and rape people?

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[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWygoxV_ApM

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[i kan reed]

And yet those cases make up a miniscule fraction of the number of times they hurt people. Exploding as soon as you use it is a bit more serious.

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[mlts]

Put too hot a round into almost any firearm, be it plastic, metal, or whatever, and it will explode.

I think this is really a non-issue. The Liberator was a proof of concept more than anything else. Of course, the technology will get better, but the only way one would use a 3D printed plastic pistol is if they had no other recourse.

The real tests I'm curious about, would be the Solid Concept's 1911. I wonder how well sintered metal will take a high round count. Since the 1911 was made back when metal technology was fairly primitive, it might just be that the metal stereolithography (what 3D printing was called before it was called 3D printing) process is good enough. Plus, shooting a .45 round puts a lot more pressure on components than a .22 or .25.

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[rubycodez]

and said LSD would damage your genes so your offspring would be mutants

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[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, they do. Every single one of them do every time they are fired. The bad part is when the explosion is not controlled properly.

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[Anonymous Coward]

Is this the same federal govt that developed movies and campaigns saying that smoking pot would cause you to go insane...

Why Pot Makes Some People Psychotic

People who smoke pot may be at increased risk for psychosis if they have a certain genetic marker, a new study finds.

The results show people with this genetic marker who use cannabis are twice as likely to experience psychosis compared with those who use the drug but do not have the genetic marker.

Among people who use the drug every day, the risk for psychosis increases sevenfold for those who have the genetic marker.

The Marijuana-Psychosis Connection Goes Both Ways In Teens

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[rubycodez]

no, most modern firearms fail more gracefully than that as the weapon gets destroyed

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[Bill_the_Engineer]

LOL. Seriously though, "Reefer Madness" was financed by a church group.

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[mlts]

I should have been clearer with my wording. Any firearm will rupture or fail if too high power a load is put in. It might not explode with pieces going everywhere, but it will render the firearm into modern art sculpture, even though the user would be unharmed because of the good engineering.

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[argStyopa]

Well, it's true that if you smoke Mary Jane you will eventually die. Absolutely certain.

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[QA]

I used to belong to a gun club. Competitive Bull's-eye shooter here.

I've seen the top strap of a S&W model 686 (Stainless Steel 6" barrel .357 Magnum revolver) get peeled back due to an "explosion". The top of the cylinder was blown open, then the top strap was blown upwards and back.
Now a revolver is inherently stronger than an automatic in most cases, and Smith & Wesson is a well manufactured pistol, but do you know what caused it? It was caused by a squib load.
A squib load is not enough powder in the case. Lets say you were hand loading your own cartridges and you were measuring out 14 grains of powder, but instead only put 4 grains in. Now, instead of a controlled burn (which is how firearm cartridges work) you really DO have an explosion. Too much pressure, probably in excess of 50,000 PSI, way too fast. Boom goes your handgun.
So, I don't have a tinfoil hat on, but things may not always be as they seem.

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[sugar and acid]

A properly manufactured weapon will fire thousands of rounds, with basic cleaning and maintenance. These printed guns can't make 10. They are not weapons, they are a political statement arguing that controlling the sale of guns is impossible because anybody can make one. It's not true, and the argument is literally blowing up in their face.

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[bitt3n]

Is this the same federal govt that developed movies and campaigns saying that smoking pot would cause you to go insane, kill and rape people?

From the perspective of reducing your eventual jail sentence, doing the killing before the raping actually seems relatively sane, insofar as at that point, presumably all you're guilty of is desecrating a corpse.

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[fermion]

Yes, and the same federal government that says hospitals cannot deny care to an injured person, and sets a policy that gun shots must be investigated. If we lived in a world where parents accidentally shot their kid, and if they did not have a way to pay for treatment, the parents had to find a way to a way to treat the kid not at the taxpayer expense, and the taxpayer were not paying police to investigate it, then the argument would be fair. The problem with dope, and even crack and meth, is that the taxpayer is paying huge amounts to do basically nothing. OTOH, the taxpayer will likely be on the hook when a gun explodes, so doing tests for guns that routinely explode is beneficial to everyone. It like testing cars for flaws. Sure, cars will roll over, but we really don't want cars that roll over by design.

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[poopdeville]

That's nice and all, but... use Bayes theorem. If you get statistically significant results, let us know.

That is, the summary statistics are incomplete for the kind of inference you want to draw.

In particular, the summary statistics you give tell us that having the genetic marker makes a smoker twice as likely to experience psychosis as a smoker who does not have the marker. It does not tell us how much more or less likely psychosis is compared to a non-smoker.

Critical thinking failure.

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[bobbied]

I don't think the DA, judge or jury will care about the order and it will be off to the "big house" for a very long time, unless you are in a death penalty state where it's off to "death row" for a few years.

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[icebike]

Reefer Madness!!

Given any commercial shoulder arm or hand gun, I can load you a round the will burst the barrel.
Not that hard.

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[lgw]

These are zip guns. The plastic printed one is obviously dangerous and unreliable even by the standard of zip guns (which usually start with a pipe from a hardware store and go downhill from there). This is a "look at what's possible" statement, and nothing more, especially in America where you can make a perfectly serviceable AR15 from some kit parts and a CnC mill, and legally so in most places.

Heck, you can make a working AK47 for a shovel without advanced tools, if you're skilled.

The technology will only improve. The plastic gun is just "here's a new way to do this thing we can do in other ways - so far it's useless, but this way is very likely to improve".

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[Jane Q. Public]

A friend of mine has this to say about "gateway drugs":

So what if 20% of marijuana users go on to use "hard" drugs? They ALL started on milk!

Correlation does not equal causation.

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[Anonymous Coward]

sure they're weapons, they're just the first generation of a new class of weapons. i expect in 10 years printed guns will perform as well as traditionally machined gun

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[Anonymous Coward]

I knew a dude who disposed of his splitting brass by overloading it (with the fastest powder he could find) then dropping it on the street.

His theory: anybody dumb enough to load a random round off the street into their weapon should not own a functioning gun (or hand, or eye etc). He was kind of a bastard.

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[krotkruton]

Especially if you want them to explode. I'm not saying they did or didn't perform tests using sub-par equipment or design the guns specifically to explode after a certain number of rounds are fired, but they sure didn't provide enough information about their testing procedure to reproduce the results or confirm they were valid tests.

I don't know a whole lot about guns, but I'm pretty sure that if someone wanted to build a conventional gun that would reliably explode after the first shot, they could do it pretty easily, so I've got to assume that the ATF can build a 3D gun that would reliably explode as well.

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[icebike]

Squib loads can be just as effective for that purpose, and provide more plausible deniability.
The load itself is so weak the bullet never exits the barrel. With predictable results when the next full round is fired.

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[jklovanc]

No because there are very few people currently working for the government that were working when those films and campaigns were created. The "government" is not a monolithic consistent sentient entity. It is made of the people elected to control it and hired to work for it therefore it constantly changes. The current government is not the "same" as one 30 years ago.

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[Anonymous Coward]

Considering that thinking that through in advance probably counts as premeditation and you're unlikely to find a judge or jury who are sympathetic to necrophelia, I don't think you'll get a lesser sentence for premeditated murder + desecrating a corpse vs rape + murder.

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[sjames]

Interesting but incomplete. The big question: does that marker indicate an increased risk without THC as well? What is the relative risk among those who have the marker?

The second link shows that there likely is a causal link but which is cause and which is effect seems very much up in the air. Since evidenmce was found both ways, that suggests (but does not prove) an underlying cause that has pot smoking and psychosis as effects.

In any event, it is certainly not as depicted in "Reefer Madness".

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[AJWM]

Well, it's true that if you smoke Mary Jane you will eventually die. Absolutely certain.

Don't be so sure. A statistically significant fraction of the people who were ever born haven't died.

Although I suppose "eventually" could extend to the heat death of the universe.

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[Anonymous Coward]

And oddly enough I get the sense that the purpose to which YOU put your abilities for critical thinking is to ensure a lack of supply of marijuana rather than determining its actual risk.

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[TeknoHog]

I feel for you, bro. My parents were hippies too.

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[Darinbob]

I've seen those kids, and I'm suspecting the government was right in that case.

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[CreatureComfort]

Hey! Stop messing up both my preconceived, anti-government opinions, AND my defense argument!

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[I kan Spl]

It is the shot after the squib the blows up the gun, due to pressures built up in the barrel from the second bullet that is unable to leave the obstructed barrel.

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[He Who Has No Name]

...when pressure-bearing components are made from thermoplastics, which has never been argued to be a well-suited use. When parts are printed from metal alloys... the game changes.

And for what it's worth, there is a Canadian inventor (who is remaining anonymous) who has successfully printed and fired a single-shot rifle.

3D printing is destroying the separation between idea or data, and fabrication, and it's doing it on an affordable, individual level. Gun control from a regulatory and political standpoint has always depended on tight control over firearm's entry points to commerce (manufacturers and importers), and compliance by intimidation of everyone else. If everybody can be a manufacturer, and it doesn't require machinist skills to make something of workable quality, centralized control is impossible.

Watch - the response is going to be to try and make possessing 3D data or plans a criminal offense. Thought crime.

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[Anonymous Coward]

shhh. I'm counting on gun fanatics being top ranked for the darwin award in the next few years...

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[Anonymous Coward]

"Not providing information about their testing process" is, sadly, kind of the way the ATF does things. Deliberately so.

Even when conducting tests or making legal / technical determinations for criminal prosecutions, thereby denying the defendant an avenue to build a defense.

The ATF's dickitude is pretty well documented like that. :\

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[dbIII]

So do wooden ones with iron hoops around them to stop them splitting along the grain, and the plastic used isn't quite as strong.

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[Smauler]

The other material, acrylonitrile butadiene styrene (ABS), could produce a gun that fired 8 times without incident.

The agents stopped shooting after 8 bullets, an ATF spokesperson said.

Looks like the tests showed this gun worked pretty well. I'd personally expect experimental plastic guns to be a bit unreliable, and this test showed they were better than I expected.

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[Smauler]

The other material, acrylonitrile butadiene styrene (ABS), could produce a gun that fired 8 times without incident.
The agents stopped shooting after 8 bullets, an ATF spokesperson said.

These aren't intended to be highly engineered precision weapons. If you expect that, you're missing the point. However, a downloadable gun that will fire at least 8 rounds without failing... that's quite useful to some people.

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[Anonymous Coward]

It's OK he's not addicted. He can stop any time he wants to. He just doesn't want to.

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[RespekMyAthorati]

And provides further examples for the Darwin award.

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[myowntrueself]

It's OK he's not addicted. He can stop any time he wants to. He just doesn't want to.

The best part about marijuana is stopping. Use it very heavily for a few weeks, suddenly stop, enjoy the REM rebound and vivid dreams that are better than any movie.

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[gl4ss]

dunno, how many of them were using it as medication for their "psychosis"(stupid word, no clear definition) prior to diagnosis?

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[Anonymous Coward]

Yep

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[SomePoorSchmuck]

No because there are very few people currently working for the government that were working when those films and campaigns were created. The "government" is not a monolithic consistent sentient entity. It is made of the people elected to control it and hired to work for it therefore it constantly changes. The current government is not the "same" as one 30 years ago.

Which of course is beside the point. Millions of Millions of cells in your body now are not the same cells as three months ago. Yet "you" as a system persist. The genius of the political philosophers and statesmen of the 1700s and early 1800s was that they recognized government is a system which has certain inherent tendencies that lead to bad ends, and therefore we must build in limits to those tendencies. 200 years later this country is populated and run by their naive Eloi descendents, whose political philosophy no longer recognizes that Government is a system, and your policies should focus on the systemic effects first. Just because the individual workers in the belly of Leviathan change periodically doesn't mean we should ignore the Emergent Properties of governmental systems. Hitler made history, but History also made Hitler. Create a government and give it power, and individuals will arise to exercise that power. But modern people have a far less sophisticated political philosophy in which the government is perceived as little more than the lever in a Skinner box, and so all we do is vote for the outcomes we want to occur when we press that lever. There is no regard for what disastrous systemic tendencies we are enabling by insisting that government provide these outcomes.

Our collective intelligence vector now stands around saying, "But it's got what plants crave! It's got electrolytes!"

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[Anonymous Coward]

Firing rounds with not enough powder doesn't cause guns to explode.

Not enough powder causes bullets to not travel all the way down the barrel, so that when you don't notice that round was different ("pop but no bang") and fire the next round, the barrel obstruction causes the gun to explode.

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[jklovanc]

Millions of Millions of cells in your body now are not the same cells as three months ago. Yet "you" as a system persist.

Are you the same person as you were when you were 4 years old? 10 years old? 15 years old? You may be labelled the same person but your thought processes and decisions are very different. You as a person are different every year.

they recognized a group of people in control is a system which has certain inherent tendencies that lead to bad ends, and therefore we must build in limits to those tendencies.

FTFY
The question is "would today's government make the same decisions as the one 30 years ago? The answer is "probably not".

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[SomePoorSchmuck]

Millions of Millions of cells in your body now are not the same cells as three months ago. Yet "you" as a system persist.

Are you the same person as you were when you were 4 years old? 10 years old? 15 years old? You may be labelled the same person but your thought processes and decisions are very different. You as a person are different every year.

I didn't say 40 years ago. I said three months ago. Obviously the systems which propel the world today are not the same systems which propelled human society in its early stages.

they recognized a group of people in control is a system which has certain inherent tendencies that lead to bad ends, and therefore we must build in limits to those tendencies.

FTFY

You didn't FIFM. You simply spoke again of trees when I addressed the forest. The whole is greater than merely the sum of its parts.

The question is "would today's government make the same decisions as the one 30 years ago? The answer is "probably not".

That's exactly backwards from the question I might ask. The real question is, "Would the leaders of 30 years ago make the same decisions as the ones today?" The answer is, "Probably so, because they would be working within the bounds of the same system". It's all social engineering and choice architecture.

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[Anonymous Coward]

The designers of the guns stated this. What is so surprising? Is the government is trying to move people away from printing, buy / selling them? The idea is nothing new, in fact 3D printed guns are probably the most likely to "explode" (fail) when fired due to the likely hood of non-uniform print. I wouldn't trust a gun that was 3D printed unless the printer was a high quality printer.

The point behind the 3D printed guns is that the technology exists. It's here, thus gun control has met it's ultimate failure. Does this mean that anyone who owns a 3D printer is a terrorist. Not really, the potential is there, but anyone who has ammonia and bleach in their home is a potential terrorist under that reasoning.

I would consider printing up a 3D gun just for display, I would probably never fire one. But anyone who decides to fire a weapon is taking a risk that the weapon will backfire, fail, or otherwise cause potential harm to them. Just like every power line repair man is risking death, and that risk increases with every additional risk they take.

I would appreciate that the government would stop its unreasonable fear mongering. There is no more reason to be afraid of a 3D printed gun than there is to be afraid of a real gun. The only difference is that one is harder to detect, more likely to fail, and no amount of laws will stop a person intent on using one.
Note I don't even like using guns. I personally find archery more relaxing, which is good because they seem to have no intention of banning bows.
Hmm, wonder if I can 3D print a crossbow that fires pencils...

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[Anonymous Coward]

...when pressure-bearing components are made from thermoplastics, which has never been argued to be a well-suited use. When parts are printed from metal alloys... the game changes.

I know this is late, but... what game does 3D printing change? I don't care whether you're talking about 3D printing of thermoplastics or metals, being able to make guns yourself has been around for ages and ages. All it takes is solid metal stock, cheap machine tools, and a bit of practice using same. No, you don't have to be highly skilled -- some of the most effective small arms in history were designed to be manufactured with horrible tolerances using shitty tools and almost untrained labor. (Look up the "Grease Gun". It's a WW2 .45 submachine gun made mostly of stamped and folded / rolled sheet metal plus a barrel.)

And for what it's worth, there is a Canadian inventor (who is remaining anonymous) who has successfully printed and fired a single-shot rifle.

OH MY GAWD

3D printing is destroying the separation between idea or data, and fabrication, and it's doing it on an affordable, individual level. Gun control from a regulatory and political standpoint has always depended on tight control over firearm's entry points to commerce (manufacturers and importers), and compliance by intimidation of everyone else. If everybody can be a manufacturer, and it doesn't require machinist skills to make something of workable quality, centralized control is impossible.

Watch - the response is going to be to try and make possessing 3D data or plans a criminal offense. Thought crime.

You 3D printing nutjobs need to get over yourselves. It's not going to turn the world on its ear. Especially not on this basis, as gun control has never worked the way you imagine it to. Stop circlejerking about how much FWEEDOM the 3D printing revolution will unlock, it's so so very dumb.

Also, your level of self awareness seems to be nearly nil. 3D printers are hardly "push a button and get perfect shit out", and the ones which print using metal are even more so. They're also largish and expensive industrial machines which won't be on every street corner any more than milling machines are today.

Coming soon - 3D printable everything

[Press2ToContinue]

Once they have these minor inconveniences ironed out I look forward to printing my own hand grenades, flame-throwers, rocket-launchers, heat-seeking missiles, and battalion of robo-troops to deploy them on my 3D-printed floating island in the pacific.

Dammit - printer jam. brb

Re:Coming soon - 3D printable everything

[Anonymous Coward]

Soon you can print your own prosthetics when you blow your fingers off!

Captcha: weeper

Re:Coming soon - 3D printable everything

[freeze128]

Molotov Cocktails are cheaper, more easily available, and faster to produce.

Re:Coming soon - 3D printable everything

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

I suspect that we...won't see them widely on the civilian market... but makers of larger explosives and munitions might actually have some very interesting ideas about 3d printing.

In principle, as long as there is some 3d printing process that it doesn't react violently with, a propellant charge or warhead could be printed, with very precise control of shape and composition throughout the entire piece: one or more explosive varieties, binders/fillers, etc. deposited where you want them, in the combinations you want them, without the constraints of standard casting or pressing.

It wouldn't be cheap; but if it renders the armor on the T-XY series battle tank substantially less survivable, somebody'll stump up for it.

Re:Coming soon - 3D printable everything

[businessnerd]

PC Load Letter? What the fuck does that mean?!?!

Re:Coming soon - 3D printable everything

[bitt3n]

Once they have these minor inconveniences ironed out I look forward to printing my own hand grenades

Apparently, you can already make a hand grenade. It's called a Liberator.

Re:Coming soon - 3D printable everything

[lgw]

There's already a neat technology that replaces the primer charge in a tank shell with an electrical system, and delivers slightly better performance. The army has tested it out, but isn't rushing to change over. Change comes slowly with this sort of thing, I guess. Maybe 3D printing would have an advantage as it doesn't require anything new in the tank, but it would still be an inventory/procurement change which I suspect is the real hurdle.

Re:Coming soon - 3D printable everything

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

Oh, I don't doubt that it'd be a cost and inventory nightmare; but somebody would probably love to have a propellant load whose burn rate changes continuously throughout, based on distance from the point of ignition, so that the properties are optimal for the expected volume of the barrel at that point in the shell's progress out of it...

Re:Coming soon - 3D printable everything

[drinkypoo]

Sure, 3d printing will revolutionize explosives. But it's also going to revolutionize reactive armor.

Re:Coming soon - 3D printable everything

[lgw]

Well, the real problem today is that the primary still takes some time for the explosion to travel, and only certain shapes are possible. The nice thing about the electrical approach is far more freedom to shape the primary, and it all explodes at the same instant. But, yeah, getting clever with the main charge might also yield more, and who knows what cleverness might be possible with normal artillery charges.

The thing is, they're already quite close to optimal. There's just a few % in performance to be gained by any of this.

Re:Coming soon - 3D printable everything

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

Sure, 3d printing will revolutionize explosives. But it's also going to revolutionize reactive armor.

So you're saying that it'll help expand two product lines? Score!

-General Dynamics

Re:Coming soon - 3D printable everything

[daninaustin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QQdNbvSGok Watch your cornhole!

Re:Coming soon - 3D printable everything

[Khyber]

Plus if the right stuff is used, if you get bored you can drink one and your firebombing will get even more fun!

Re:Coming soon - 3D printable everything

[RabidReindeer]

Soon you can print your own prosthetics when you blow your fingers off!

Captcha: weeper

Where have you been? Bespoke prosthetics is all the rage in 3-D printing these days!

Re:Coming soon - 3D printable everything

[Anonymous Coward]

Once they have these minor inconveniences ironed out I look forward to printing my own hand grenades

Yep, sure want my very own 3D printed hand grenade that doesn't explode.

Re:Coming soon - 3D printable everything

[BlueStrat]

Once they have these minor inconveniences ironed out I look forward to printing my own hand grenades

Apparently, you can already make a hand grenade. It's called a Liberator.

Oh, put a cork in it! :)

Strat

Re:Coming soon - 3D printable everything

[Feyshtey]

By a drill press, a metal lathe, and a few other mundane metal-working tools, and you dont have to wait. You could make all those things easily enough in your garage, without any form of licensing, registrations or certifications.

Oh, crap. I let the secret out. Quick, we need media hysteria and knee-jerk legislation, ASAP.

Re:Coming soon - 3D printable everything

[Anonymous Coward]

PC LOAD LETTER

Lowest Bidder?

[Liquidretro]

So the same contractor who built the health care website builds 3D printers now? Joking aside this would not be a very good test if the agency regulating guns came out and said the ones you make yourself without regulation work better than the ones we regulate, now would it.

Lets flood the web with faulty designs....

[Anonymous Coward]

Then we can spot terroists more easily. They will be the ones with 9 fingers!

Re:Lets flood the web with faulty designs....

[JamieIanMacgregor]

the middle east is already flooded with c4 filled rifle ammunition which will destroy the rifle and likely the person holding it too. if you're over there be very careful what ammunition you're using, especially in your little plastic liberator.

Re:Lets flood the web with faulty designs....

[bobbied]

Who needs to print a gun in the middle east? They seem to be awash in Russian weapons and starting to build up an inventory of US made ones too. Obtaining one should not be a problem.

Re:Lets flood the web with faulty designs....

[HornWumpus]

I'd just like to say 'well done' to whatever spook agency came up with that idea. Excellent!

Re:Lets flood the web with faulty designs....

[Press2ToContinue]

Mod parent up funny please

Re:Lets flood the web with faulty designs....

[JamieIanMacgregor]

wannabe jihadists from non-middle east countries? the main point is even real firearm's aren't safe over there with this stuff floating around.

Re:Lets flood the web with faulty designs....

[JamieIanMacgregor]

yeah, 'tis a great idea but the problem is legitimate ammo supply chains acquiring this 'spiked' ammo and selling it on to legitimate users.

Re:Lets flood the web with faulty designs....

[gl4ss]

well they don't need to print because they have blacksmiths/metalworkers who will make them as well..

any town in the 1st world has the necessary tools as well anyhow, but the society doesn't reward anyone capable of creating weapons to create them.

Re:Lets flood the web with faulty designs....

[Big Hairy Ian]

Who needs to print a gun in the middle east? They seem to be awash in Russian weapons and starting to build up an inventory of US made ones too. Obtaining one should not be a problem.

Everyone thinks HP Invented the cartridge system actually it was Comrade Kalashnikov! You can buy an AK47 for $1 but the Ammo's $20 a shot!

It's obvious. Make all guns illegal

[Anonymous Coward]

What could possibly go wrong?

ATF

[scuzzlebutt]

That's exactly what they *want* you to believe! Don't trust them, people!

Unforgiven

[mcgrew]

I'm thinking of the scene in the western where the Sheriff is telling the writer what he got wrong in his story. "And BLAM! It blows his hand off, which was a failing common to that model."

I can see making one just to see it work, but in a vice with a string on its trigger. You'd be a fool to shoot a gun with a plastic barrel while holding it. Even steel breaks sometimes.

Re:Unforgiven

[rubycodez]

No, firearm needs human body to recoil against to avoid damage. Don't put a standard caliber handgun or rifle in a vice (or even put stock of rifle against hard object for firing) Ransom(tm) rests or similar for sighting in weapons thus have system to pivot to absorb recoil

Re:Unforgiven

[drinkypoo]

That depends on what kind of firearm it is, and how it is operated, e.g. recoil vs. gas.

What I find interesting is how some firearms don't operate correctly if you don't hold them correctly. Tightening your grip will stop FTF in some 1911s.

Re:Unforgiven

[techno-vampire]

The 1911A has a number of safeties. One of them is in the grip so that if you're not holding it firmly, it won't fire. I've always been glad that nobody told that to Squeaky Fromme.

Re:Unforgiven

[drinkypoo]

Actually, I'm not even talking about the grip safety. I own a Kimber, and I know about it, but it's not what I mean. You can hold the pistol tight enough to depress the grip safety and still have FTFs because you're not holding it tight enough.

Re:Unforgiven

[Anonymous Coward]

The FTF in that case is "Failure to Feed", not 'Failure to Fire". In other words, it will still *shoot*, it just won't automatically reload the chamber for you afterwards. A recoil-operated semi-automatic weapon relies on the weapon being held firmly enough for the slide to cycle all the way back so it can strip a new round off the top of the magazine, and feed it into the chamber.

Re:Unforgiven

[rubycodez]

quite true, which is why I favor revolver as first thing to grab for home defense (back it up with higher capacity pistol). if you are injured or just tired and "limp wrist" a pistol it can jam.

NEWS AT 11

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously... is this news to any of us?

Point being

[onyxruby]

Real world point "Don't be an idiot and make a gun out of plastic". Fear mongering point., "someone might make a single shot pistol that could be smuggled past a metal detector".

Let the fear mongering begin!

Re:Point being

[Anonymous Coward]

Real world point "Don't be an idiot and make a gun out of plastic". Fear mongering point., "someone might make a single shot pistol that could be smuggled past a metal detector".

Let the fear mongering begin!

I know!

How about we give our government MORE money to solve this problem, along with every other one we could think of?

Right?

Things will get better if everyone were only to pay their "fair share"?

Right?

Doesn't our government DESERVE more money?

Re:Point being

[presspass]

"With taxes I buy oppression".

Fearmongering at its finest.

[intermodal]

The plastic gun sale ban is the motivation here. The ATF doesn't care how many people get hurt by bad, homemade guns. The ATF cares about making their own jobs easier by keeping the plastic gun ban in place.

That said, I think most plastic guns are a horrible idea. But, that's why I don't buy nor use them. I have no problem with others doing so while safely away from me.

Re:Fearmongering at its finest.

[Guspaz]

Are you including Glocks in your "plastic guns are a horrible idea" statement? Because they are generally considered to be of above-average reliability, and are substantially (but obviously not entirely) made out of plastic.

Re:Fearmongering at its finest.

[intermodal]

I wasn't as specific as I should have been. I was referring to the entirely (well, nearly entirely) plastic 3D-printed guns. And entirely/nearly entirely plastic moulded or carved (machined? Can you call it that?) guns, I suppose, while we're at it.

Re:Fearmongering at its finest.

[Anonymous Coward]

As with any "poly-frame" pistol only the handgrip and magazine assembly is plastic, the slide and barrel are always metal.

Re:Fearmongering at its finest.

[Anonymous Coward]

A Glock isn't a "plastic gun" any more than a Corvette is a "plastic car". There's some plastic cladding on the outside but the stressed parts are metal.

The article headline may as well read: "Breaking news! Government discovers that plastic stuff breaks more readily than metal stuff!"

Re:Fearmongering at its finest.

[glitch0]

But, that's why I don't buy nor use them.

If plastic guns are banned, then you can't buy nor use them anyway. You don't even have the option.

Re:Fearmongering at its finest.

[Anonymous Coward]

But, that's why I don't buy nor use them.

If plastic guns are banned, then you can't buy nor use them anyway. You don't even have the option.

100% wrong. Pot is banned, and I know plenty of people who smoke it. Banned does not mean unavailable.

Re:Fearmongering at its finest.

[dbIII]

Apparently the "obviously not entirely" is not obvious enough since the entire fuss is all about replacing the metal bits with a plastic that is not a strong as many types of wood.

Re:Fearmongering at its finest.

[intermodal]

You have a lot more confidence in the effectiveness of bans than I do.

Given the trustworthiness of law enforcement...

[kylemonger]

... in these matters, I'd be more inclined to believe in these tests if Consumer Reports did them. Or maybe the Consumer Product Safety Commission.

Re:Given the trustworthiness of law enforcement...

[HornWumpus]

Consumer reports rated the 'vette unacceptable because it was a lousy economy car.

I'm sure they couldn't get past the agenda with guns. They would rate them all 'bad'.

Fear mongering ahoy

[Anonymous Coward]

Where the hell are these people getting their 3D printed bullets?!

Re:Fear mongering ahoy

[AK Marc]

You can get a bullet past a metal detector without a problem. Put it next to a common metal item, or as a disguised part of a large key cluster (inside a rabbit's foot, with the inside also lined with lead will get you through.

Re:Fear mongering ahoy

[rubycodez]

some dense metals are not very inductive, would go through standard metal detector. gold, for instance

Re:Fear mongering ahoy

[Anonymous Coward]

some dense metals are not very inductive, would go through standard metal detector. gold, for instance

I don't know about that, but I do know that some metals have the opposite effect on inductance -- whereas if you put some iron in a coil of wire it'll increase the inductance, if you do the same with brass, it'll decrease the inductance. While I don't know it to be true, a logical conclusion of that would be that you can probably make an alloy that'll balance the two effects to where there's no change in inductance at all. At the very least, the proper combination of iron and brass side-by-side should largely cancel each other's effects.

Re:Fear mongering ahoy

[dbIII]

But they block x-rays incredibly well, as I've seen when I was helping out with a bit of industrial radiography. Stick with what you are good at.

Re:Fear mongering ahoy

[rubycodez]

trivial to deal with that, because parts of the skeleton also do that. some will invent the brass "bony-looking bullet hiding tube(pat. pend.)"

of course their demo exploded

[Gothmolly]

So they can show that 3d printed guns are bad and should be outlawed.

WTF, how is this even news?

Re:of course their demo exploded

[Anonymous Coward]

If you had RTFA or WTFV, you would know the Liberator made of ABS withstood 8 firings before they stopped testing it. It didn't appear to sustain any damage.

And THAT is why they want to ban 3d printed guns - because they have the potential to work reliably. Not because they will blow up if made of the wrong material.

Re:of course their demo exploded

[Anonymous Coward]

If you had RTFA or WTFV, you would know the Liberator made of ABS withstood 8 firings before they stopped testing it. It didn't appear to sustain any damage.

And THAT is why they want to ban 3d printed guns - because they have the potential to work reliably. Not because they will blow up if made of the wrong material.

And that is why you are only allowed to write with crayons.

Re:of course their demo exploded

[Gothmolly]

Point: 1
You: 0

Re:of course their demo exploded

[cascadingstylesheet]

So they can show that 3d printed guns are bad and should be outlawed.

WTF, how is this even news?

You're right; the best approach to a problem like this is to say nothing about it ;)

Re:of course their demo exploded

[Anonymous Coward]

So they can show that 3d printed guns are bad and should be outlawed.

WTF, how is this even news?

Because Richard Stallman will be very upset if he can't 3D-print all his gnus.

So no new laws then

[SuperKendall]

It looks then like we don't need to pass any laws around 3D printing of guns, since according to the feds it's a self-correcting problem.

Re:So no new laws then

[Valdrax]

It looks then like we don't need to pass any laws around 3D printing of guns, since according to the feds it's a self-correcting problem.

By that logic, so are suicide bombers.

Entirely Appropriate

[hedgemage]

I think its entirely appropriate for government to determine safety standards and inform the citizenry when something doesn't comply. With the manufacturing of /everything/ by 3D printers, the vast majority of the populace has no way to determine which designs are safe and stable and which are junk because most of them are not engineers or materials scientists. I think that testing and rating designs for potentially dangerous items, not just firearms, that could cause grievous harm due to catastrophic failure is good role for government to act in the common good.

Keep the designs free for all, but provide a central database where I can reference a rating performed by experts. I wouldn't mind my tax dollars going for that.

Re:Entirely Appropriate

[SonicSpike]

Have you never heard of the Underwriters Laboratory?

How accurate - and reproducible - is it?

[damn_registrars]

The plastic gun might be novel and all, but if it can't hit anything because the barrel and other important parts flex and distort too much, then it's not worth anything as a weapon. And if another one gets off 8 shots before self-destructing the question should be asked of whether the first 7 shots were of any accuracy.

Re:How accurate - and reproducible - is it?

[mlts]

I'm sure someone will mention that a device that just has one shot in an airplane can mean more than an AR-15 on the ground.

Then there is the fact that some gangster may not really care about accuracy. For most things, pulling out any type of firearm on a victim will get the criminal the car, wallet, bag o' meth, or even a hostage.

Of course, this gives me a fear that the other shoe will fall -- DRM on 3D printers. I can see this implemented very easily:

1: No printer will function unless the pieces are signed by a third party that vets them for "non-gun" use. So, if someone has an object they want to make, the WRL file has to be uploaded, scanned, then downloaded with an authorized signature for it to be printed.

2: Printers would be registered and tags added to objects, similar to the yellow dots on color printers.

Re:How accurate - and reproducible - is it?

[Professr3]

This might be feasible if it wasn't so darned easy to build your own 3D printer without DRM in it.

Re:How accurate - and reproducible - is it?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sure someone will mention that a device that just has one shot in an airplane can mean more than an AR-15 on the ground.

One shot? Seriously? What are you going to shoot? A window? One of the two pilots? Somebody else?

I can assure you that since United Flight 93, there will be more people willing to die stopping you than you will ever be able to get enough rounds though security to shoot. The best you could hope for would be to disable the aircraft, which is going to be quite the trick with ONE shot. You are going to need at least TWO well placed rounds to cause enough damage to the redundant systems to make the plane uncontrollable and your best bet for that is to get both pilots. Good luck shooting something you cannot see, though a locked door. You will have the same amount of fun trying to shoot the flight controls or fuel systems.

Oh, and before you start into thinking about decompression by shooting out a window or some other foolishness, remember that even if you manage to break a window, the aircraft is still flyable only now you will be unconscious in a few seconds. You might kill a few folks, but you are not bringing down the airplane.

Re:How accurate - and reproducible - is it?

[SleazyRidr]

That will become illegal...

Re:How accurate - and reproducible - is it?

[techno-vampire]

How accurate the gun has to be depends on the range. A gun that's only accurate within five feet of the aiming point at fifty yards is probably good enough if you're planning to be within ten feet of your target.

Re:How accurate - and reproducible - is it?

[Anonymous Coward]

It isn't about the actual round. It is the threat that matters. Flight 93 is becoming a distant memory, and it won't be long until kids are in high school who were born after the incident. With all the gun control and zero tolerance in schools, people would be cowering in their seats.

Maybe there -might- be an air marshal, but that one shot can earn someone a hostage. Just the -threat- of firing out the window would be enough.

Right now, there are still people who remember 9/11. Give it a few years, and a hijacking can be pretty feasible.

It doesn't have to be a gun-shaped object either. Anyone remember the cell-phones that had three .410 rounds in them?

Re:How accurate - and reproducible - is it?

[Professr3]

Clearly, that will stop people from doing it. "I swear, officer, I was just holding that ABS plastic for a friend!" "Those stepper motors are for a completely legal CNC machine!" "Those aren't lead screws for a two-axis bed, they're carriage bolts for my landscaping cross-ties!" "You can't prove I was going to melt those milk jugs into printing filament!"

Re:How accurate - and reproducible - is it?

[SleazyRidr]

It'll give everyone something else to be scared of. People won't want to risk getting into the hobby because they'll be scared of being arrested for it. Kinda like drugs: the people who want to do drugs don't care that it's not legal, but other people don't want to risk being associated with the criminal element so the drug users get shunned.

Early technology is not perfect

[hawguy]

Original musket style guns had a problem with exploding too, yet metallurgy and gun designs have improved since then.

3D printing is still in is infancy, so the 3D guns will get better as designers learn about the weaknesses of the materials and design around them.

I wouldn't see a 3D gun as any more than a novelty today, but within a few years they will be much improved -- efforts to legislate them will just drive the designs and designers underground, it's not like the war on drugs has made it impossible, or even difficult to find drugs.

Guns don't kill people...

[Bodhammer]

Bullets kill people, guns just make them go fast and straight.

3d printers, A tool with bad press

[GoodNewsJimDotCom]

I can think of many tools that if used wrong can kill.

3d printers just get bad press because manufacturing is afraid of losing out on money.

Anything that is new will get bad press if people will lose money.

Examples: MPAA/RIAA hated the Internet for sharing songs. So they sued grandmothers for millions and won.
Cable companies are afraid they'll give you too much bandwith and never pay for TV again. So they restrict usages like jerks.
Newspaper is worried that free online newspaper will put them out of buisness. So Murdoc makes threatening claims.
Petroleum giants are afraid of the electric car, so anything something slightly goes wrong with a Tesla, it makes press.
Energy Utilities are afraid of solar, so solar gets all sorts of negative press that it will never fly or be a solution.
It just goes on and on. People with money are afraid of losing their cash cows, so instead of doing what's good for society, they do whats best for themselves. And part of the equation today is,"You can only get away with so much in USA politics. If you can't make a bull shit propoganda story why something is bad for society, people won't elect the crook next cycle." And really, that is about the only thing that keeps the USA from going from suck to blow. So any time someone paints a bullshit propoganda story to you, be a good citizen and dismantle it.

Re:3d printers, A tool with bad press

[Anonymous Coward]

"3d printers just get bad press because manufacturing is afraid of losing out on money."

Oh yeah, SIG better watch out, a single-shot smoothbore .22 with a 50% failure rate is going to steal their market out from under them!

No, 3D printed guns are getting bad press because they are, at the present moment, really awful at being guns, and should not be used by anyone. Use a conventionally-made zip gun instead, if you have to make a firearm for some reason. It'll be safer, work better, and probably less expensive as well (3D printers aren't cheap!). Hell, knives are a better option than the "Liberator" - less likely to blow up in your hand, about the same effective range, and can be used more than once!

I wonder what that cost

[Dunbal]

Well great, the government has done us the service of telling us what we already know. Also, water is wet. How many billions of dollars did this official report cost? Because hell if a website is running into the billions, certainly field testing has got to be worth a couple billion at least!

Re:I wonder what that cost

[Anonymous Coward]

Well great, the government has done us the service of telling us what we already know.

Define "we".

We're a nation where the average person thinks an "assault rifle" is an actual thing; a thing that is something other than purely cosmetic functions.

The average person is going to eat this nonsense up ("ZOMG! ASPLODES!"), wet themselves (possibly going number two as well), and then mew at their elected idiots to do something - anything - for teh chillens!!!!!!!!!!!!111111

Money well spent by an incompetent government hell-bent on disarming the populace rather than addressing actual issues facing the nation.

Re:I wonder what that cost

[Eskarel]

Healthcare.gov is not a "website" it is the largest systems integration ever attempted, as far as I've read it was also being deliberately attacked. Please take your anti-government bullshit and shove it up your arse.

Scarcity USA

[ZombieBraintrust]

3d printed guns would matter in the USA if guns were expensive or scarce. But at the moment. Metal mass produced guns are cheap and plentafull. Even crazy people and children can afford guns.

Edison

[CanHasDIY]

I would make a wisecrack about Thomas Edison being put in charge of making these videos, but it appears no elephants were harmed.

Regulation

[Anonymous Coward]

See, they aren't regulating 3D printed guns because they are guns.
They are regulating 3D printed guns because they too closely resemble a hand grenade!

Re:Regulation

[EmagGeek]

They (the federal government) is not regulating 3D printed guns because they (the federal government) has no right to do so.

The ATF....

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're too stupid to work for the CIA or FBI, the ATF is hiring. Or so says an old CIA fellow....

Not often

[Sycraft-fu]

If you have a properly made gun, it takes a pretty bad malfunction to explode, and then usually they don't actually explode in any normal sense of the word, they just distend and crack. Guns are made to be reliable, since the agencies that buy them tend to value that.

Re:Not often

[Anonymous Coward]

If you have a properly made gun, it takes a pretty bad malfunction to explode

No true Scotsman's gun would ever explode.

Re:Not often

[Anonymous Coward]

Or cheap reloads. The vast majority of regular gun explosions are caused by either a 'squib load' (a cartridge loaded without primer) where the bullet fails to completely exit the barrel and then the operator fires again, or a cartridge loaded with more powder than it should be.

Buying a gun off the shelf and having it explode with high quality ammunition is about as likely as hitting the lottery. Printing a barrel out of plastic and having it explode is more like the chance your lottery ticket is NOT a winner.

Re:Not often

[Anonymous Coward]

Ka boom!

Re:Not often

[ApplePy]

'squib load' (a cartridge loaded without primer) where the bullet fails to completely exit the barrel and then the operator fires again,

I think you meant "without powder".

Breaking News

[ebonum]

Plastic not as strong as steel!

On a related subject. Plastic doesn't hold up to the extreme heat generated by multiple rounds as well as steel.

If you didn't see this coming, you are on track to earn a Darwin.

Well...remeber the name...

[TheCarp]

"Liberator"..... as some friends of mine pointed out, takes the name of a gun that was dropped in Nazi occupied germany; and essentially encouraged people to use it...once... to shoot a nazi and aquire a real gun. :)

I think the idea is just that, this obviates the need for manufacturing outside and air dropping in, if any geek with a modest personal investment can make them by the 10s or 100s.

Re:Well...remeber the name...

[HornWumpus]

I don't know where the cheapest 3d plastic printer is priced. But I'd be amazed if it was cheaper then a cheap drill press, a vice, a 25 rim chamber reamer and drill set. Plus .25 ID blackpipe, caps, nails as firing pins and rocks as hammers. Buying a pipe cutter/threader might be worth it if you're mass producing.

Zip gun manufacturing kit:

http://www.harborfreight.com/5-speed-bench-drill-press-60238-9067.html 70 bucks.

http://www.harborfreight.com/5-inch-multi-purpose-vise-67415.html $70 bucks, overkill.

http://www.jgstools.com/2010catalog.pdf No prices obvious. I'm gonna guess $50 for hss.

http://www.harborfreight.com/29-piece-titanium-nitride-coated-drill-bit-set-5889.html $20 bucks

Yes, I've given a little thought to draining the gun buy-back funds. Purely as a service to society. Protect the good guns by giving them zip guns to melt down and make a decent payday in the process.

Re:Well...remeber the name...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, I've given a little thought to draining the gun buy-back funds. Purely as a service to society. Protect the good guns by giving them zip guns to melt down and make a decent payday in the process.

I like the way you think.

Re:Well...remeber the name...

[dbIII]

takes the name of a gun that was dropped

Which was designed to be dropped, but the people in charge of the operation decided to send real guns and even bazookas to the French Resistance, so it didn't get a chance to prove itself. It was a bit of a "spruce goose" well intentioned wartime project that never came off.

Re:Well...remeber the name...

[DrXym]

I expect if you're not too fussy about appearances that you need very little more than a shotgun cartridge, a metal tube snug enough to hold it, a pin, a rubber band and lots and lots of masking tape.

Personally I think the hysteria over 3D gun printing (and the attendant hype by those who think it is a wonderful thing) is totally overblown. Anyone fashioning home made guns, be they from masking tape or plastic deserves everything they get. If the gun blows up in their faces, or ends up being used against them then it serves them right.

Re:Well...remeber the name...

[TheCarp]

You do realize, of course, that they would then tout the numbers of bought back guns as evidence of the huge success of the program, causing them to do more of it in more places.

Re:Well...remeber the name...

[HornWumpus]

I'm not seeing a problem with that. Considering I'm looking at a cost about $2/zip gun vs. $200/gun common at buy backs.

Re:Well...remeber the name...

[TheCarp]

Right no I get that but you see the over all.... um wait that's like almost $200 profit....each?

Suddenly I am coming around on this plan.

This kills the "heritage" argument for me

[sandytaru]

A lot of the hunters and such around here go on and on about how their guns are part of their family heritage, they are beautiful works of engineering, etc. I agree with all those arguments. There's something beautiful in a hundred year old pistol that still works, or a lovingly crafted replica of a piece from 1776.

This thing? This is an ugly piece of plastic made by people just to give the proverbial middle finger to the government. There's no heritage here. Just the same kind of morons who refuse to wear seat belts because they're protesting the seat belt law.

Re:This kills the "heritage" argument for me

[EmagGeek]

What Law are these people protesting? It is perfectly legal to manufacture your own firearm for your own use.

Re:This kills the "heritage" argument for me

[drinkypoo]

This is an ugly piece of plastic made by people just to give the proverbial middle finger to the government.

The fact that an ugly piece of plastic does give the middle finger to the government is what makes it an important political statement.

Re:This kills the "heritage" argument for me

[couchslug]

The US has a heritage of freedom precisely because Colonials were willing to give an armed, violent ugly middle finger to their lawful government, and kill sufficient British, Hessians, and Tories to chase them off. Being able to kill bad masters is a beautiful thing and well worth maintaining. If you cannot kill a bad master you are at their mercy and nothing will ever change that reality.

BTW the Syrian rebels have put up quite a fight against Assad, and the American public own more firearms than there are Syrian people.

Re:This kills the "heritage" argument for me

[sandytaru]

Well, right now it has to have a certain percentage of metal in it, so for the next month at least, an all plastic gun is still illegal. I think even if you do manufacture a traditional gun for your personal use, you're still required to have a gun permit AND have it registered as well.

Re:This kills the "heritage" argument for me

[AcidPenguin9873]

What are you so upset about that you have to give the middle finger to the government? The ready availability of guns in the USA? The non-existence of regulation of 3D printers? The lack of DRM on gun designs?

Re:This kills the "heritage" argument for me

[ApplePy]

This is an ugly piece of plastic made by people just to give the proverbial middle finger to the government. There's no heritage here.

That *IS* the heritage. Have you been here long?

Re:This kills the "heritage" argument for me

[drinkypoo]

What are you so upset about that you have to give the middle finger to the government?

You're a brain in a jar, right?

Re:This kills the "heritage" argument for me

[AcidPenguin9873]

I don't know what that's supposed to mean, but sure, whatever. Usually the thing you do when you're angry at the government has something to do with the thing you're angry about. What are you angry about that you're demonstrating by printing a gun?

Re:This kills the "heritage" argument for me

[drinkypoo]

What are you angry about that you're demonstrating by printing a gun?

The stupidity of attempting to create a malleable underclass which can be shorn and milked on schedule?

Re:This kills the "heritage" argument for me

[AcidPenguin9873]

How does gun-printing convey that that's what you're angry about?

Reefer madness redux

[GT66]

Reefer madness for the 3d printer age.

Re:Reefer madness redux

[felrom]

I wonder if the ATF used the same kind of doctored up guns and ammo that they do for criminal trials.

They would say that, wouldn't they?

[Bruce66423]

Or am I being too cynical in suggesting that they might just want to indulge in a little FUD wrt plastic guns...

Re:They would say that, wouldn't they?

[Anonymous Coward]

You are being too cynical.

The guy who made the Liberator only got a few shots off before the gun exploded, and that was the best he could manage. It's sad that I have to say this, but 3d-printed plastic guns are actually, legitimately, a bad idea. It's not a government conspiracy, is it just bad engineering. Plastic is not a good material for the chamber and barrel of a gun.

Re:They would say that, wouldn't they?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, the very first versions of the Liberator had issues with durability. However, the design has since been tweaked. So long as you use the right *type* of plastic (ABS), and a quality printer, they seem to be pretty durable at this point.

Heck, there's even all-plastic longarms that have fired a magazine worth of ammunition with no issues.

BATFE

[Anonymous Coward]

they also tested airsoft rifles and concluded they could be readily converted into machine guns, so take any of their test conclusions with a pound of salt.

Re:BATFE

[felrom]

Some other famous ATF rulings:

Shoestrings are machine guns.
ChoreBoy pot scrubbing pads are silencers.
If the ATF can swap out 7 internal parts of your gun with machine gun parts, and make it fire full auto, then you were in possession of a machine gun.
If you possess a combination of parts that could be used to make an illegal gun, you're guilty of having made it.
If, in 8 hours of work in a modern machine shop, you could convert a semi-auto gun to a machine gun, then it is "readily convertible" and illegal.
Baseball is not a sport. (Yes, that really is an argument the BATFE has made.)

I wont even begin on their rulings concerning the NFA, armor piercing ammunition, or import regulations, where their idea of logical comes completely unglued from reality.

Re:BATFE

[Anonymous Coward]

Baseball is not a sport. (Yes, that really is an argument the BATFE has made.)

Woah, hey, they just went up a notch for that one.

Re:BATFE

[felrom]

It was in their shotgun import study they did maybe 3 years ago. They were arguing that they should ban a whole bunch of models of shotguns from import because 3-gun (a sport with over 250,000 competitors, nationally sponsored "pros", and its own TV channel) and plinking were not sports by the ATF's headache inducing butchering of the English language. During said mental gymnastics, they made the claim that plinking was instead a "past-time, and not a sport." I'm sure Major League Baseball, as America's National Past-Time, would be saddened to hear that the ATF thinks it is not a sport.

; )

Really?

[nurb432]

I never would have thought that possible. Captain Obvious hard at work i see.

Remember tho, its all part of a plan to scare people into staying away from this technology and not advancing it.

"Set to expire"..

[nurb432]

Like that matters, as they wont let an anti-freedom law expire in the current totalitarian environment out there in Washington.

Re:"Set to expire"..

[felrom]

The problem for the ATF and the president is that they can't just ask that the current law be renewed in its previous form. They don't have the self control to just do that.

The replacement law they've proposed would not just ban "undetectable" firearms, but would also ban all of the most popular handguns (which contain LARGE amounts of metal), hugely popular magazines containing plastic and metal, and large swathes of the scary looking cosmetic features that Feinstein wets herself over (since they're made of plastic).

We literally have a government so infantile, underhanded, immature and naive, that they'll pass on renewing a law they like just because they instead want to try and cram a lot of other garbage through with it.

Re:"Set to expire"..

[nurb432]

You have more confidence than i. I do however hope you are correct and they let it slide into non-existence.

Re:"Set to expire"..

[Valdrax]

Like that matters, as they wont let an anti-freedom law expire in the current totalitarian environment out there in Washington.

I don't know what sort of horrible, dystopian world you think you live in, but I kind of want to visit one in which Washington actually gets something done.

Re:"Set to expire"..

[nurb432]

Restricting my rights is not 'getting something done'.

Re:"Set to expire"..

[Valdrax]

You have a right to self-defense. You don't have the right to create an undetectable assassin's tool that can be smuggled into airports and courtrooms.

I'm not fond of concealed carry either, actually. I don't have much of a problem with open carry, though, and the deterrence factor is greater when people know you have a gun.

Re:"Set to expire"..

[nurb432]

I suggest you read the Constitution and its intent, idiot.

Re:"Set to expire"..

[Valdrax]

Seeing as I've taken Constitutional Law and have actually spent time studying the Heller decision and its precedents, I'm certainly far more familiar with the issue than you. I'm not fond of the way that DC v. Heller (2008) nullified the militia clause of the Second Amendment (while pretending that it hadn't done so), but the decision is law on the 2nd Amendment.

You might be interested in what it has to say on concealed carry. As Scalia wrote in the majority:

"Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues ... The majority of the 19th-century courts to consider the question held that prohibitions on carrying concealed weapons were lawful under the Second Amendment or state analogues."

In other words, as a matter of the Constitution, which says absolutely nothing about concealed carry, it can totally be outlawed. You might consider reading the document yourself, if you want to toss around words like "idiot" on matter which you rely far more on emotion than fact about.

Re:"Set to expire"..

[nurb432]

Go back to school. Idiot.

Restating the obvious,and a warning

[rickb928]

1. Anyone paying the least attention would know that the developers of the Liberator prototype had numerous failures, some on first discharge. Much press, several reports.

2. Defying the law banning the sale of plastic guns was not the point of the exercise to design a 3D printed gun. There is, as of yet, no law I am aware of that prevents the manufacture of a plastic gun for your own use. The point was to demonstrate it was possible for individuals of relatively common skill, with access to technology, to manufacture their own firearms. That is not yet entirely evident, but progress is being made. ATF is engaging in a bit of a PR campaign to get ahead of that, I think, and influence our government to prevent that from being permitted. Note I did not say 'from happening'. It WILL happen.

3. When the state of the art of 3D printing develops so that someone like me can successfully print a plastic gun that fires at least one shot, you can expect a law will be proposed to prevent THAT. But the issue here is that making your own gun has not been illegal. Possessing it if you are prohibited by law from doing so would get you in trouble, but making was never illegal. and no problem, so long as it took considerable skill to do so. When it becomes possible for the general populace, it will be considered a problem and a threat, and of course legislation will be proposed to prevent it.

4. We will have to shame or threaten our representatives to not do this. Not being able to MAKE your own gun is the ultimate subversion of the Second Amendment.

5. Yes, I am an extremist. Just as my nation's founders were, so am I. Save that I don't quite yet see the need to take up arms and join in liberating myself from an oppressive government. Oh, wait, neither did they at first. Darn.

As someone who works in the firearm industry

[Anonymous Coward]

We call plastic guns Tactical Tupperware. Stuff like Glocks, where everthing is plastic with the exception of maybe the slide, mech and barrel. Even then, I've seen extruded plastic components for slides and ratchets. Make them lighter? Yes. Make them easier to conceal from security checks? Yep. Loud? Pardon, what was that?

Re:As someone who works in the firearm industry

[Lumpy]

And nobody in their right mind touches that crap. I have seen more Glocks with broken parts with less than 100 rouunds through them... Give me an all metal CZ75 or Desert eagle. If your pistol cant take 2000 rounds, be thrown at the ground and ran over with a semi truck and come up undamaged, it's a frigging toy.

And yes you can concealed carry a CZ75.

Re:As someone who works in the firearm industry

[ApplePy]

Hm. I have never seen a broken Glock part. Ever. Certainly not from normal usage.

What are you clowns doing with them? Running them through wood chippers?

See the "FPSRussia" channel on YouTube for a Glock torture test. Spoiler: It survives everything but 20 pounds of Tannerite. I kinda think that would do in your CZ as well.

Re:As someone who works in the firearm industry

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean like this? http://theprepared.com/content/view/90/administrator/

I've put hundreds of rounds through Glock pistols, hell I put 500 through one in one day at the range never had a problem. I think you must be thinking of a hi-point or something.

Glad that is confirmed

[dutchwhizzman]

Some people only believe it if the ATF tells them it's true...

This just in

[NIK282000]

The ATF cheaped out on their 3D printer, in other news reports have come in about corner cutting in other branches of the government. More at 11.

A gun? how moring

[geekoid]

Mix a explosive with the plastic and make an everyday looking item with it. Like luggage wheels.

ATF dog and pony show

[daninaustin]

ATF is trying to make a political point. It looks like they are intentionally using a different kind of plastic.

Maybe sooner

[daninaustin]

The expiration of the patents on laser sintering will do good things for homemade printing.

Re:Maybe sooner

[s.petry]

Well, I have no doubts that certain parts can be well made by home printing. I really don't get how you believe that a printed gun can be as "good" when it comes to the barrel. The printers AFAIK can only print in plastics, which lacks the strength of steel. We use high quality steel in manufactured guns because of the strength and durability.

Plastics improve, but to claim they will match metal for guns I don't believe. Stable for a few more rounds? Maybe, but guns get very hot when used and plastics begin to warp much sooner.

Re:Maybe sooner

[daninaustin]

That's the whole point of laser sintering. You can print in titanium, steel or even iconel. There was a recent article about a company here in Austin that printed out a 1911 pistol that is just like a normal Colt 1911 you would buy.

Re:Maybe sooner

[s.petry]

Got it, thanks. I'm really not up on the current trends with the technology.

Incorrect

[SuperKendall]

By that logic, so are suicide bombers.

No, suicide bombers hurt many people around them. Watch the video, the only person much impacted by an exploding plastic gun is the person holding it. The person in front of them is certainly safe.

Re:Incorrect

[Valdrax]

Watch the video, the only person much impacted by an exploding plastic gun is the person holding it. The person in front of them is certainly safe.

That only matters if the gun has a high enough failure rate. With ABS plastic, it doesn't.

Assassins fail frequently, but that's cold comfort when they don't. And in many crimes, the threat of a gun is more important than its use, such as kidnapping, robbery, and hijacking. A one-shot, oversized derringer is good enough for many troublesome purposes, and since bullets are made of non-ferrous materials, metal detectors are worthless against them.

It was a somewhat funny, flip comment, but the issues that plastic guns represent aren't solved purely by the chance that they'll kill the user.

Re:Incorrect

[Anonymous Coward]

Turn it around, and you've got it working again.

And?

[Anonymous Coward]

Stupid people are likely to hurt themselves, hopefully no one else is hurt when these things explode.

Tech branch

[Anonymous Coward]

I think it's probably true for tech branch. ATF should be shut down and it's duties moved to FBI and other places. Most govt is incompetent but ATF excels at it.

Re:Tech branch

[BlueStrat]

I think it's probably true for tech branch. ATF should be shut down and it's duties moved to FBI and other places. Most govt is incompetent but ATF excels at it.

Just don't get caught with a semi-auto rifle that was witnessed to have experienced the common malfunction that causes two rounds to be fired with one trigger pull, typically in an erratic, unpredictable manner, and usually caused from firing continuously without cleaning/lubrication.

They also charged another person for possessing a machine gun because he had a semi-auto rifle and a shoelace (something they thankfully were finally forced to reverse themselves on). Google "ATF shoelaces" without the quotes.

The ATF has exhibited a rich history of carelessness, heavy-handedness, gross overreach, and thug-like/bullying behavior ("...and that's just towards their wives & kids!" bada-boom). They've got plenty of guns and muscle, but not much for brains. When all you have is a hammer...

I wouldn't put it past the ATF to be stupid enough to SWAT-raid some poor Slashdotter's basements and charge them with storing large quantities of materials for 3D firearms, conspiracy-related charges, maybe even RICO charges...all for the ABS plastic cases of all their old/spare/accumulated hardware and electronics they saved for years.

ATFE should be a store, not a taxpayer-funded, jackbooted, paramilitary government regulatory/enforcement bureau.

Strat

orly?

[slashmydots]

Headline: plastic isn't metal, test finds.
This isn't surprising. They're going to need to find some composite material or something to make a decent gun. Since it'd basically be required to melt, I don't think we're even within 10 years of inventing something like that.

didn't we already know this?

[roc97007]

Wasn't this already common knowledge? When the first articles on printed guns showed up on slashdot, the number of survivable shots were in the single digits. Is this yet another example of the federal government revealing with great pomposity the most mundane data that everyone already knew?

Re:didn't we already know this?

[Lumpy]

The idea of a plastic gun only needs 1-2 shots. It's either an assassins tool, or a tool used to kill someone that has a better gun. Same reason we made and dropped a lot of single shot guns all over France in WW-II

New thing not as good as old thing yet

[wonkey_monkey]

We'll keep you posted with the latest as we get it.

You'll shoot your eye out!

[sjames]

n/t

ATF Testing

[Anonymous Coward]

When the ATF did testing of rockets to try to attack their safety and credibility as safe, the video they did became notorious as "keystone cops". Then they lost the lawsuit.

JJ

Why dont....

[Lumpy]

All laws come with an expiration date? WE have so many bad laws on the books that time could erase... Like the DMCA, PATRIOT, etc....

I Know What You're Thinking

[Greyfox]

You're thinking his gun's made of plastic! It's going to explode the moment he pulls the trigger! Well to be honest I'm not really sure myself. So you should ask yourself... Do ya feel lucky, punk? WELL, DO YA?

Ya . . .

[Anonymous Coward]

In other news, water is still wet and dynamite is still explosive.

Doggon upgrades!

[Tablizer]

That does it, I'm sticking with 2D guns.

No this is not that at all

[Sycraft-fu]

When I say "properly made gun" I mean "Basically every commercial firearm made today." I am certainly not going to claim that no gun could ever have problems, particularly something knocked together by amateurs in their basement (like printed guns) but it turns out that the kind of guns you go and buy in a gun store and pretty damn reliable. That is what is in demand, not just with private shooters but more importantly with police agencies and governments, who like to buy a lot of guns.

There are plenty of regulations and tests in that regard. They see what happens if you jam a round in the barrel, then fire another in to it, They are required to fire a proof load (a deliberately overpressure load) without any problems, and so on. If you are interested, go check out the SAAMI standards (they do cost some money).

I don't think you appreciate what goes in to building a gun. They are made to be pretty robust. The barrels are made of thick, strong steel, often hammer forged (not meaning with a blacksmith's hammer, but a massive pneumatic device) and can take some real abuse.

Shhhhh....

[Anonymous Coward]

If you tell the gun obsessed, penis extension crowd that their unaccountable weapons might kill the owners by mistake, then you are making ineffective the helpful effects of darwinism.

Re:Shhhhh....

[Anonymous Coward]

If you tell the gun-fearing, pants-wetting crowd that you can't hold an inanimate object accountable for the actions of the user, they'll plug their ears and accuse you of wanting to kill children. Oddly enough, they do the same thing if you tell them you want to make sure those children are *safe* by allowing the people we *already* entrust with their daily safety to carry an inanimate object that will better enable them to do so. And then, when something happens, they scream and cry for people with those very same inanimate objects to come save them and the very same children. :sigh:

Well obviously.

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think anyone expected a plastic firearm to withstand more than a few rounds at most, to be safe for the person firing it, or anything you'd expect of a normal firearm...because it's not a normal firearm. it's a proof-of-concept. Plastic items can be assembled this way now, that's a good step because it paves the way for assembly with more durable materials. That's what the ATF is ultimately afraid of, cheap assembly of firearms that anyone can easily manufacture, produce with very little resources, in their own home. I don't think anyone at the ATF is genuinely afraid that someone in their neighbourhood is going to print an entirely plastic firearm and then commit a crime with it, except for an incredibly convoluted suicide.

Don't they realize they done R&D for free?

[madhi19]

By telling everybody what polymer is good or bad to print a plastic gun they saved a lot of peoples countless hours of trial and error and some serious cash.

Printed guns

[Z00L00K]

Criminals using printed guns wouldn't care if they are illegal or not. They want them to be undetectable by scanners if they use them.

But most criminals want guns for scaring people, and even a simple one made from bare metal would be sufficient. Give me some time with a piece of steel and a drill press and I could come up with something scary.

old school

[fred133]

here's my list,available at ANY hardware store:
1/4 in.Black Steel Nipple
1/4 in. Galvanized Malleable Iron Cap
1/16 in. Black Oxide Drill Bit
2 x 4 x 8 Premium Kiln Dried Whitewood Stud
1 ea tenpenny nail
3 rubber bands
its called a zipgun.... its only 1 shot, but how many shots does it take?
it won't make it through to the plane,unless you are a 12 year old who can walk right through the checkpoint.....
that's if your target is getting on a plane................
who needs a 3D printer! :-)

Is today just littered with Fucking Idiots?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know if they were handing out free Stupid Pills at the Wal-Mart today, but a gun that explodes in your hand only does damage to your hand regardless of which way it is pointed.

WHOOSH

[SuperKendall]

Somebody needs to go back and read someone else's ORIGINAL POST again.

*rolls eyes*

I'm sure they do... but...

[Karmashock]

What if they didn't. What if they were perfect guns. What would the ATF say then? Exactly.

... And people are surprised.

[Subnuke]

Seriously, this is why guns are made out of metal and not plastic - anyone who has taken a Materials Science class can tell you that. just because you can make it on a 3D printer doesn't mean that it is a good idea.

No permit or registration necessary in most places

[WillAdams]

Whether or not you need a gun permit or registration is a matter of local law --- only a few places have such measures in place.

ATHF tests.

[preflex]

ATHF tests show that 3d printed guns explode whenever dropped by an anthropomorphic milkshake.

ATF Authority

[Anonymous Coward]

ATF does not have any authority to ban ANYTHING, especially arms.

The 2nd amendment is not something that can be ignored whenever it suits a political agenda. It is one of our RIGHTS, and nobody including the President, or Courts or Law makers have any authority to infringe on that right. At the very least, it would take a constitutional amendment, to change it.

The ATF is not one of the branches of government, and even if they were, they still would not have such authority. The Congress and Courts and President do not have the authority, so they can't grant authority to te ATF.

we CAN control sales of guns absolutely

[Medievalist]

...printed guns can't make 10. They are not weapons, they are a political statement arguing that controlling the sale of guns is impossible because anybody can make one. It's not true, and the argument is literally blowing up in their face.

We certainly could control the sale of guns; the easiest and simplest way would be to kill every single human. A combination of engineered Ebola derivatives followed by mopping up with automated high-fallout nuclear weapons should do the trick, and you could probably set up for it in less than 50 years.

There are many other methods that would work too, but they would all be vastly more difficult, expensive and time consuming to implement. Universal human enslavement by near-omniscient robotic overlords, for example, would be very difficult to achieve. Forcible re-education of citizens and institutionalized culling of their children to eliminate all those intelligent enough to independently deduce the principles of firearms manufacture would take many generations.

So if you aren't merely posturing, and honestly do want total control of gun sales, maybe you should be campaigning for the extermination of mankind. It's clearly the most achievable real-world method of reaching your goal.

Cartridge design is part of the problem.

[unixcorn]

Guns (or gun barrels) are made of metal because modern cartridges are not strong enough to manage the burning of the gun powder. When the primer is hit by the hammer and ignition starts, pressure inside the brass cartridge builds and causes the brass to expand. The cartridge expands to the diameter and length of the chamber. The expansion also releases the bullet which travels into the barrel, a slight force fit, and as pressure builds sends the bullet down the barrel and out of the gun. For a plastic chamber to work, we would need to redesign cartridges to handle the pressure without being encapsulated. However, even by doing that, the barrel of the gun wouldn't last. Jacketed bullets combined with the hot burning powder tend to wear the rifling over many shots. Without a metal chamber or rifled barrel, I don't see how a printed gun could ever be useable long term with today's cartridges.

Err, what?

[Valdrax]

Exactly what part of your post don't you think I get?

You made a snarky joke; it was founded on faulty logic that may or may not have been sincere. I shot back with counter-snark, then you showed you were sincere, and then I pointed out the flaw in more detail.

(Saying, "woosh!" doesn't make you actually originally clever, by the way.)

Testing things that don't work...

[hicksw]

If the Federal Government is starting to test things to see if they work, how about:

DHS (shoes off, what?)
ATF (I've been away too long - what do you call the gang that killed all those people near Waco?)
DEA (see below)
War on Drugs
killing random olive-skinned people in the MIddle East
the quality/reliability of buyable congress-critters
anything from the Chicago Democrat machine (POTUS)

for a start.

I used to have a copy of the Constitution, but it's not much use any more, so I put it up on eBay - no bids from the USA, but I got a derisory offer from China. Somebody had been watching Galaxy Quest and thought it was a historical document. Best offer, so I sold it. Hoping for positive feedback.
--
America is not a lie; it is a disappointment, because it used to be a hope.