Gov't Puts Witness On No Fly List, Then Denies Having Done So

cathyreisenwitz sends word of a San Francisco trial in which the U.S. government appears to be manipulating the no-fly list to its advantage. The court case involves a Stanford Ph.D. student who was barred from returning to the U.S. after visiting her native Malaysia. She's one of roughly 700,000 people on the no-fly list. Here's the sketchy part: the woman's eldest daughter, who was born in the U.S. and is a U.S. citizen, was called as a witness for the trial. Unfortunately, she mysteriously found herself on the no-fly list as well, and wasn't able to board a plane to come to the trial. Lawyers for the Department of Justice told the court that she simply missed her plane, but she was able to provide documents from the airline explaining that the Department of Homeland Security was not allowing her to fly.

Comments

Southwest..

[Anonymous Coward]

You are no longer free to move about the country.

Re:Southwest..

[TWiTfan]

Of course you're free to move, citizen. You just need to present the proper papers, which you're not eligible for.

Re:Southwest..

[Anonymous Coward]

Correct, it does not say anything about it.

So then why do you think the federal government have the right to stop it?

Re:Southwest..

[Grishnakh]

The US really does not resemble either the DDR or USSR in any way.

Of course it does, it just hasn't gotten really bad, yet. The US is absolutely an imperialist superpower, just like the old USSR, using threats of force to get other countries to bow to its will and routinely sending its army to invade other countries to control resources and establish hegemony, and now it's spying on all its citizens just like the Stasi did in the DDR. It's not a big step from there to abusing all that power and routinely oppressing regular citizens.

Re:Southwest..

[Runaway1956]

You are quite the optimist. With today's technology, a locked down population is unlikely to be able to throw of the yoke of tyranny. And, government will be improving on today's technology, of course. Given a few decades of round the clock surveillance, mandatory forced indoctrination in the school system, and enforced thought policing, how are people ever going to regain their freedom?

If the US falls to tyranny, there will be something equivalent to Europe's Dark Ages. It will be a long, long, LONG time before the pendulum swings back the other way.

Re:Southwest..

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry to be A/C but as someone with experience with the DDR, listen to Grishnakh. The US is playing a very dangerous game, and it's a game which cannot be won.

You should not fear the people in power on the day your privacy and freedom are first lost. It's the assholes who come later with bold plans to abuse the new powers who your children will learn to fear.

It took decades after their rights were removed until the full perversity of the brown shirts grew to be what it was. But thought crimes became a real offense and listening to forbidden radio could make your dad dissapear without recourse when they stormed your house in the night. When your child was sick you weren't alowed to visit in hospital. Going to church would land you on a watch list in an athiest country, and you had to lie every day about your thoughts and ideas to preserve the safety of your family. And there are many places in the world today where people still suffer under this form of opression so one needs to remember that it is very real.

American ignorance is to think that "it happened over there but it can never happen here".
Wake up. Humans are humans; you should never give them power over each other because they will abuse it in the name of whatever stupid ideology they feel is "best for you". It won't matter what you think if you're on the bottom.

Every indication as far as I can tell is that the strong foundation of liberty and protected freedoms that made the USA great is being steadilly broken down and removed, brick by brick.

Re:Southwest..

[ultranova]

The Nazi regime didn't last long, but the East German government lasted for about 45 years.

The Nazi regime didn't last long, because it started war after war until it was everyone's enemy - sounds familiar? And East German government lasted for 45 years because it had the backing of a greater power, and fell pretty much instantly when that backing failed.

Anyway, the US doesn't really resemble either. Nazis and Communists were ideology-based tyrants, while the US looks more like a failing state: the economy continues getting worse, everyone loots as much of the pie as they can to themselves and their friends, tribalism rises, the state tries to compensate with ever-increasing internal security (both surveillance and "though" penalties), the rulers mostly live in and react to their own little world... It's the standard "rot from the inside" pattern of collapse, with the "blinded by past glories" flavour.

Re:Just drive there

[Lucky_Pierre]

If the jackboot fits, wear it.

I'm readying popcorn

[MiKom]

Judge presiding over this case - William Alsup. The one who threw away Oracle Java APIs lawsuit agains Google.

three times is enemy action

[Thud457]

Too much of this BS going on these days to be merely negligence , ignorance and incompetence.
Yeah, the NSA would never abuse all that personal data it's hovering up.

Re:Just drive there

[Anonymous Coward]

Driving is a privilege, not a right. You can see where this leads...

No popcorn yet

[Okian Warrior]

Don't get out your popcorn just yet. From the article:

But Judge Alsup noted that the document with the DHS instructions to the airline was not supported by any sworn testimony or evidence of its authenticity. “You have to have a sworn record before I can do something dramatic.” Judge Alsup said he would consider the document if and when Ms. Mustafa Kamal arrives in San Francisco and can testify as to its authenticity.

Ms. Pipkin said that Ms. Mustafa Kamal was reluctant to spend the money on another airline ticket to San Francisco without some assurance that this time she would be allowed to board her flight.

“Get her on an airplane and get her here,” Judge Alsup responded. “She’s a U.S. citizen. She doesn’t need a visa. I’m not going to believe that she can’t get on a plane until she tries again. ” And Mr Freeborne, with disingenuous faux-solicitude, claimed that the government is “willing to do whatever we can to facilitate” Ms. Mustafa Kamal’s ability to board a flight to the U.S.

Re:No popcorn yet

[chris_mahan]

How can she prove she is on the list when the airlines are instructed not to let the passenger know the reason why the passenger is denied boarding...

Re:No popcorn yet

[jfengel]

He's saying that he doesn't believe the contention that she is on the no-fly list. The government denies that she's on a no-fly list. The document that claims she was comes from an airline, not from the DHS itself, so it's possible that the reason she was denied boarding comes from further down the line.

She's reluctant to try again, since the flight isn't cheap (and they didn't refund her money). The airline is blaming DHS, and that's the part I'm not sure how they'd go about proving. They'd need to prove that the order they claim came from the DHS actually came from the DHS. I don't know what channel the message was delivered to them, so I don't know how they'd authenticate it, and the fact that DHS usually operates in secrecy makes it that much harder.

If I read it correctly, she doesn't have to try again, she simply needs to get Malaysia Airlines to cough up their source for the document they provided. I've got no idea how easy that would be.

Re:No popcorn yet

[StinkiePhish]

He has to do this in order to allow the document into evidence. Once it is authenticated and otherwise admissible, he can rely on it for any decision he will make. If he decided to go rogue and not follow the Federal Rules of Evidence, then the government could easily prevail on any appeal. In other words, the judge isn't being difficult to be difficult; he is doing it because he does not want to be overturned.

Re:No popcorn yet

[VortexCortex]

"You have to have a sworn record before I can do something dramatic." Judge Alsup said he would consider the document if and when Ms. Mustafa Kamal arrives in San Francisco and can testify as to its authenticity.

FTFNFLA:

A "false positive" occurs when a passenger who is not on the No Fly List has a name that matches or is similar to a name on the list. False positive passengers will not be allowed to board a flight unless they can differentiate themselves from the actual person on the list, usually by presenting ID showing their middle name or date of birth. In some cases, false positive passengers have been denied boarding or have missed flights because they could not easily prove that they were not the person on the No Fly List.

When an airline ticket is purchased, the reservation system uses software to compare the passenger's name against the No Fly List. If the name matches, or is similar to a name on the No Fly List, a restriction is placed in their reservation that prevents them from being issued a boarding pass until the airline has determined whether or not they are the actual person whose name is on the No Fly List.

In order for a citizen to comply with the laws it is essential that they be allowed to know the laws that apply to them. A restriction on flying, driving or status as a prisoner under arrest must be public information available to the citizens that such rules affect. The citizens can not protect themselves from secret rules they know nothing about. The system should have notified her at purchase that she was subject to a law which could require her facing additional government scrutiny. Judge Alsup should subpoena the no fly list as of the time Kamal purchased the airline ticket, and fucking check it himself -- He can write a Java range check program, so he can Ctrl+F a partial name match, or even look at the matching algorithm in use and see the evidence for himself.

IMO, he is right in desiring a sworn testimony of the wronged party before taking action on their behalf -- A higher court may throw out such actions without at least a party claiming damage. However, the government is NOT allowed to withhold evidence. The no-fly list is evidence. They're not allowed to tamper with witnesses either. The list may no longer contain her name, but it very well may have. If the witness can not get on the plane to fly to court then how in the flying fuck can they give their sworn testimony? The court wants the witness, they should pay the fucking air fare -- at least give a voucher redeemable for an equivalent to their mile-high club. The government created the damn problem in the first place, they're the ones who should have a taste of their own invasive inspection medicine.

In other words: If citizens should be assumed innocent until proven guilty -- The laws themselves should be assumed guilty until proven innocent.

Re:No popcorn yet

[erroneus]

Alsup is simply being careful as he should be. Not being careful opens doors for appeals which he seeks to avoid.

Re:No popcorn yet

[ShakaUVM]

>How can she prove she is on the list when the airlines are instructed not to let the passenger know the reason why the passenger is denied boarding...

Malaysian Airlines actually provided her a copy of the letter from the DHS.

The judge, though, said that it's not a sworn statement, so it has no validity. You know, the letter that was used to block her from travelling. That one.

Fucking unbelievable.

Re:Just drive there

[Huntr]

I'll tell you what's a right: due process. The govt appears to be denying that to a witness in a trial for their own benefit. Let that sink in a sec and decide if the issue here is whether or not she can drive to court.

Re:Just drive there

[Anonymous Coward]

Dr. Ibrahim was familiar with Jamaah Islamiyah Malaysia. She said she had heard of it only from reading online newspapers, but that from what she had read, it was an un-Muslim terrorist organization. Later in her deposition, Dr. Ibrahim noted that since returning to Malaysia in 2005, she has become active in Jamaah Islah Malaysia, a non-profit professional networking group for Muslims who have returned to Malaysia after post-secondary schooling in the U.S. and Europe. The two groups have names that could easily be confused by non-Malays, and are sometimes referred to by the same acronym, âoeJIMâ. But both are well-known and readily distinguishable to Malaysians. And the FBI agents who visited her in 2004 didnâ(TM)t ask about âoeJamaah Isla Malaysiaâ, the entirely innocent organization with which Dr. Ibrahim is now involved. This potential confusion is the only hint in the public record to date about any possible explanation, legitimate or not, for FBI âoeSpecial Agentâ Kellyâ(TM)s nomination of Dr. Ibrahim for inclusion on the âoeno-flyâ list.

Tuttle, Buttle, what's the difference? The Department of Records doesn't make mistakes!

(Dear NSA: I was going to self-censor, because I know that mentioning terrist organizations reflects poorly on my loyalty score. Let the record show that I'm making a reference to a movie called Brazil, in which... well, let's just say the next time someone streams it over Netflix, you should watch along with them. You'll find a lot that's familiar.)

Re:Let's see what the judge says...

[wizkid]

Alsop is the Judge. One of the few good ones left. He'll probably Fillet the DOJ and serve them up for lunch. Unfortunately, the DOJ will appeal when they don't get their way.

Re:Ah yes...

[Required Snark]

Without blogs this kind of event will be completely ignored. It's not like we have a functioning independent press any more, so blogs pick up some of the slack. Although this is an important instance of how the legal system has been rendered non-functional, it's not the kind of stupid mindless drama that passes as "news". The lack of attention is one of the mechanisms that is used to erode basic rights and let the government get away with this crap.

I am astonished

[Okian Warrior]

I really have to congratulate you. Reading the long string of replies from idiots who didn't follow the link and/or get the joke is hilarious.

It's like I touched the third rail of the internet. I am astonished.

Re:Let's see what the judge says...

[niftymitch]

Another question. Can't the judge summarily rule against the government since they wouldn't allow the person to testify? Essentially they've denied a fair trial and he could just drop the hammer.

It is a good thing I am not a member of the bar...

I think you are wondering if he can dismiss the case....
    Yes he can.
I am wondering if he can dismiss the case with prejudice so it cannot be refiled.
    I hope he can.

I am wondering if he can incarcerate the entire prosecution team
for contempt of court.
    I hope he does if it is clear that they tampered with witnesses.

It is a federal crime to tamper with witnesses and conspiracy amplifies
the reach of the crime.

The recent revelation of a false conviction based on withheld evidence
by the prosecution makes me want to see 4x penalty. The man spent
25 some years in jail. Those that knew should be locked up for 100 years
and have their lives turned inside out. Abuse of power is difficult
to tolerate.