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Open Source 'Wasn't Available' Two Years Ago, Says UK Gov't IT Project Chief

An anonymous reader writes "The head of delivery for the UK's Department for Work and Pensions' flagship welfare reform project, Universal Credit, has said that the department didn't adopt open source and web-based technologies at the beginning of the project because 'such things weren't available' two and a half years ago. Howard Shiplee told the Work and Pensions Committee this week that the department is now using open source technologies in its enhanced version of Universal Credit, which was initially developed by the Government Digital Service (GDS) and will be rolled out nationally by 2017 for most claimants. The existing system being used in pathfinder pilots and developed by the likes of IBM, HP and Accenture will be largely be replaced by the digital version."

37 of 113 comments (clear)

  1. WTF? by gstoddart · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The head of delivery for the UK's Department for Work and Pensions' flagship welfare reform project, Universal Credit, has said that the department didn't adopt open source and web-based technologies at the beginning of the project because 'such things weren't available' two and a half years ago.

    Then either they needed something highly specific, or this guy isn't qualified to evaluate technology.

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    1. Re:WTF? by Nerdfest · · Score: 4, Funny

      I was wondering myself, incompetent or corrupt? I do see IBM involved, so it could be both.

    2. Re:WTF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      > Then either they needed something highly specific.

      My guess is: a non-functional, extremely expensive closed-source product offered by a good friend

    3. Re:WTF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You gotta understand, to a lot of stuffed shirt types Microsoft *is* (or at least was) all of I.T. It's because there idiots listen to the loudest marketing department, and FOSS doesn't really have one by design.

      Where I work we're dealing with same thing because of our MBA shit leadership. They firmly believe that the more money paid the better the software, meaning our "enterprise" labors under super-expensive and horrible software.

    4. Re:WTF? by Bengie · · Score: 2, Informative

      But nothing is truly free because of the requirement of "time". What does cost more money is legal issues that can easily arise from proprietary software. License management has its own cost.

    5. Re:WTF? by Bill,+Shooter+of+Bul · · Score: 5, Informative

      Or it was a terrible misquote of him in the slashdot summary.

      His real quote was

      “The current system for Universal Credit is a conventional system being developed on a waterfall approach. When you look at digital [the enhanced system], it’s very different – it relies not on large amounts of tin, black boxes, but uses open source and mechanisms on the web to store and access data,” Shiplee told MPs.

      When asked why he didn’t adopt this approach two and a half years ago at the start of the project, Shiplee said: “Technology is moving very rapidly, such things weren’t available as they are today.”

      So he might not have meant that opensource wasn't availible, but that the" mechanisims on the web to store and access data" weren't *as* available as they are today. Without knowing what technologies he's using, he could be right. They might not have existed, or have been as mature as they are now.

      --
      Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
    6. Re:WTF? by compro01 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And closed source stuff only costs the price they quote if your time has no value.

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    7. Re:WTF? by Bill,+Shooter+of+Bul · · Score: 3, Informative

      Open source is free. Saying anything else is crazy fud talk. Opportunity costs apply to everything you do or use. Only a good faith examination of all technologies strengths and weaknesses will allow you to determine the right solution.

      ESR was only looking at the negative side of LInux back in the day. How many people spent time learing linux only to have it lead to a promising career. Far from costing anything for these people, the time spent setting up Linux was money *earned*.

      --
      Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
    8. Re:WTF? by gbjbaanb · · Score: 2

      and you'll remain a n00b until you learn to look beyond the headline and (here, the summary) and read what was actually said and apply some critical thinking and comprehension to it.

      FYI, he didn't say "there was no such thing as open source", he said "there was no open source component that did what we needed".

    9. Re:WTF? by exomondo · · Score: 2

      Then either they needed something highly specific, or this guy isn't qualified to evaluate technology.

      The third and most probable explanation is that the quote was taken out of context. Even without reading the article this sort of flamebait is common enough for that to be the default explanation: "oh look, government incompetence...they didn't even know about open source"

    10. Re:WTF? by exomondo · · Score: 3, Informative
      And of course yes, upon reading the article that is exactly the case:

      “The current system for Universal Credit is a conventional system being developed on a waterfall approach. When you look at digital [the enhanced system], it’s very different – it relies not on large amounts of tin, black boxes, but uses open source and mechanisms on the web to store and access data,” Shiplee told MPs.

      When asked why he didn’t adopt this approach two and a half years ago at the start of the project, Shiplee said: “Technology is moving very rapidly, such things weren’t available as they are today.”

      And the article and summary have misquoted and taken it out of context in order to make it seem as if he thought open source didn't exist 2 years ago. Chalk one up for incompetent flamebait journalism.

    11. Re:WTF? by exomondo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I was wondering myself, incompetent or corrupt?

      You mean the author of the article right?

    12. Re:WTF? by pr0fessor · · Score: 2

      If the company you work for uses technology and sales something more mundane then chances are they are going to buy commercial w/support contract before they move into developing a FOSS solution that can meet their needs {even if there is a solution that meets their needs they may overlook it if there is not a way to get a BIG support contract}. A technical company would be more likely to use FOSS and contribute back to FOSS.

    13. Re:WTF? by El_Muerte_TDS · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Not really. You're forgetting the additional support and customization costs which are not covered by the standard contract. And the yearly upgrade/renewal costs.

    14. Re:WTF? by TangoMargarine · · Score: 2

      The summary also completely fails to mention what the hell kind of software he was looking for.

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    15. Re:WTF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I was in a meeting recently where an IBM engineer assured us that we shouldn't use an open source solution because it would "lock us into one technology". Then in the very next sentence he described the IBM product that would do essentially the same thing as the open source software. Everyone in the room had that WTF? expression.

    16. Re:WTF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The Minister in charge is a fuckwit, he was such a success as an army officer he was returned to unit. Failed leader of the conservative party.

      The only interesting thing about him is what does he have on Cameron and Osborne etc that they dont dare sack him.

    17. Re:WTF? by AK+Marc · · Score: 2

      From my experience, they needed middleware to sit between two propietary systems that are closed source, with cross licensing so that any open source solution would be illegal (or practically impossible). The "solution" would be replacing one (or both) of the systems being connected. Sounds like that was the solution in this case.

    18. Re:WTF? by jedidiah · · Score: 4, Funny

      > It reminds me of what ESR said in his magnum opus, The Cathedral and the Bizarre: Linux is only free if your time has no value.

      Clearly someone that's never used Oracle or SAP.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
  2. Summary trolling by ugen · · Score: 5, Informative

    Even though the article is also lean on the details, at least it provides the actual quote, which is:

    "It relies not on large amounts of tin, black boxes, but uses open source and mechanisms on the web to store and access data,” Shiplee told MPs. When asked why he didn’t adopt this approach two and a half years ago at the start of the project, Shiplee said: “Technology is moving very rapidly, such things weren’t available as they are today.”

    Ok, so "such things" - does not necessarily refer to "open source". It may (and probably does) refer to "mechanisms on the web to store and access data". Perhaps something "in the cloud", given that article does not provide sufficient detail - hard to say.

  3. "Not available" == not permitted at the time by g0tai · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Before people blow up :-) - This usually means that the department wasn't permitted to use 'un-vetted/approved/etc' software at that time (it may have been that they actually /wanted/ to use something open source 2 years ago, but various bits of bureaucracy didn't allow for it) This is government after all :-)

    1. Re:"Not available" == not permitted at the time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      When the source is open it's easier to vett.

      Both wrong and irrelevant. This isn't about going line-by-line in somebody else's code, this is about having a solid chain of support for when things go wrong. If an organization is willing to spend the time to have their own employees read over a batch of open source code, they would be better off by simply asking those employees to write the same thing themselves, and give them the open source code as an example of something that appears to work.
      I've inherited code before, and honestly, line-by-line reading is worthless. It takes almost as long to understand what an existing piece of code does as it would to write the same thing starting with an empty text file. With proper documentation (hard to find in corporate code and nearly impossible in all but the biggest OSS), it might take half as long to understand pre-existing code as to rewrite it.

      Now, assuming you actually read that and aren't just going to trollvote me because I dared type something ill of OSS as the solution to all the world's ills, I conclude with my premise. A responsible organization does not vet a piece of software, it vets the developers of a piece of software. The capabilities of the software desired will be examined as part of the greater goal of knowing that the providers of that software are competent.

  4. Before you feed the article troll by Cryacin · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Shiplee said: “Technology is moving very rapidly, such things weren’t available as they are today.”

    If you actually read the contents of the article, it seems that Howard Shiplee was taken out of context. (Say it aint so)

    It seems to me that lots and lots of small components were available for the final software product, but due to the complexities of navigating a large bureaucracy, larger systems that closely fit the requirements were needed. At the end of the day, it's just boxes on a piece of paper to an architectural "expert" somewhere. At the end of the day, it's all about risk, and how that risk is managed. The usual trick for middle management to keep their jobs, is to get the risk exported.

    “You would find it very hard to find vendors in the market place to do this work at full risk. So the department took up the risk.”

    Anyone who understands the concept that an entity, both corporate or government can't export risk is deserving of respect. Sure, you can have contracts with vendors that give guaranteed SLA's, but at the end of the day, if a government service goes down, and there's a 100% risk export, for sure when the media gets to it, "IBM messed up, it's not our fault!" simply doesn't cut it. A ton of mud will still stick to those who are beholden to the responsibility of a service that they provide.

    Even financially, the risk that is exported is only ever as good as the other companies working capital and professional indemnity insurance.

    --
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    1. Re:Before you feed the article troll by g0bshiTe · · Score: 5, Informative

      Yep, I admit when I read the summary headline I about ROFL'd and had to check my calendar to make sure I didn't hibernate and wake up on 1 April.

      FTFA it appears to be a specific mechanism for pooling their data, not OpenSource itself just there was no opensource solution at the time.

      --
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    2. Re:Before you feed the article troll by whoever57 · · Score: 2

      At the end of the day, it's all about risk, and how that risk is managed. The usual trick for middle management to keep their jobs, is to get the risk exported.

      We are talking about British civil servants here. The risk that they would lose their jobs over a screwup can be approximated to zero.

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
  5. Re:On inappropriate expectations by sd4f · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Probably not far off the mark. I'm noticing it in Australia, and not just in the public service, that hardware like tablets, don't appear to be solving anything or improving productivity, it mostly appears like as if they're shoehorning them in because people want them or they want to appear like they're keeping up with the times.

  6. Re:And Earth is only about 8,000 years old? by sribe · · Score: 4, Funny

    Some of these people literally believe that the Internet is a corporate creation that was spearheaded by Bill Gates... so you can see how solidly they understand the history of networking.

    A buddy of mine was once consulting for a firm whose new "CTO" argued with him, vehemently insisting that Bill Gates invented TCP/IP...

  7. Re:Asleep at the switch by GodfatherofSoul · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Pretty funny coming from a guy who didn't bother reading the article.

    --
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  8. Re:On inappropriate expectations by mythosaz · · Score: 2

    "Keeping up with the times" is important, if you're - for example - administering a hospital, and physician satisfaction (an item that's almost entirely perception) is a major consideration for retaining high-quality staff.

    I've worked in healthcare IT pretty much forever, and there's a lot more to appearances than meets the eye... ..or I suppose it's exactly what meets they eye :)

  9. In a way, perhaps true. by T.E.D. · · Score: 3, Informative

    I've been using the OpenOffice suite in one of its various previous or successor incarnations for nearly 15 years now, so yeah, its clearly not true that there were no usable Open Source alternatives 2 and a half years ago.

    However, what has happened in the last two and a half years is that Google Docs acquired the capability to use old Microsoft formats (in April of 2010 to be precise) and work offline (September of 2011). If they are using Google Docs and consider all its cloud-based collaboration features along with Microsoft file support and/or offline capability essential features that make their new setup worthwhile, then its perfectly fair to point out that this alternative was not available two and a half years ago.

  10. Re:On inappropriate expectations by Bert64 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's not just tablets, organisations everywhere have for years been deploying new technology that brings with it the promise of improved productivity. In reality it often does not... You take old hardware and old software that works just fine, and spend a fortune replacing it with new faster hardware running new slower software. The end result often isn't any faster, and users have to take time getting used to it while not using any of the new features. Often the new version is much worse than what it replaced, and instead of the software supporting the business, the business has to adapt to the way the software works.

    --
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  11. Re:And Earth is only about 8,000 years old? by Jason+Levine · · Score: 2

    Bah! The Internet and the World were only created last Tuesday. Any history before that is just a test of true believers in Last Tuesday-ism I dare you to prove otherwise! Also, don't listen to those Last Wednesday heretics. They're just crazy.

    --
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  12. I think I saw that movie by roc97007 · · Score: 2

    The guy must have just broke out of a block of ice and still thinks it's 1978. On the plus side, he missed Jersey Shore and the Kardashians.

    --
    Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
  13. Re:And Earth is only about 8,000 years old? by nurb432 · · Score: 2

    No. He was just mis-quoted to get people all pissed off and get some ad revenue.

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
  14. Re:On inappropriate expectations by BeerCat · · Score: 2

    It's not just tablets, organisations everywhere have for years been deploying new technology that brings with it the promise of improved productivity. In reality it often does not... You take old hardware and old software that works just fine, and spend a fortune replacing it with new faster hardware running new slower software.

    (should be +5 insightful right there)
    There have been many companies *cough* Microsoft *cough* whose stock answer since the early 1990s has been "throw more hardware at the problem" (because of the implicit "our new software soaks up so much more system resources than the old stuff, that you'll need it").
    It's only in the last few years that the hardware has overtaken the software so much that people forget how bad the "new stuff isn't any faster than the old stuff" had got.

    instead of the software supporting the business, the business has to adapt to the way the software works.

    A previous boss of mine (company director) stated "the needs of the business dictate the IT required. Not the other way round" Unfortunately, there are so many instances of the IT tail wagging the business dog that it really isn't funny any more (as if it ever was). Sharepoint, I'm looking at you, here (amongst many others on the wall of shame)

    --
    "She's furniture with a pulse"
  15. Re:And Earth is only about 8,000 years old? by weilawei · · Score: 2

    No, the World was created 1386723418 seconds ago, according to date +%s.

  16. Posted by Soulskill by bloodhawk · · Score: 2

    before giving the headline or summary any attention what so ever you need to take note of "Posted by Soulskill", that is all you needed to do to be certain that the summary bears no resemblance to the actual article and has been twisted to some sort of flamebait.