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Switzerland Wants To Become the World's Data Vault
wiredmikey writes "Business for Switzerland's 55 data centers is booming. They benefit from the Swiss reputation for security and stability, and some predict the nation already famous for its super-safe banks will soon also be known as the world's data vault. For example, housed in one of Switzerland's numerous deserted Cold War-era army barracks, one high-tech data center is hidden behind four-ton steel doors built to withstand a nuclear attack — plus biometric scanners and an armed guard. Such tight security is in growing demand in a world shaking from repeated leaks scandals and fears of spies lurking behind every byte."
What is to say that their agency similar to the NSA will not be over all the stored data like a fat kid over cupcakes? It is great intel, especially if it comes to economic or commercial stuff.
FAT32 support.
Spent All My Mod Points
IMHO, I don't care if they store data in the vaults of Mordor... I care about what these firms offer for a SLA, and what happens to the data if the company folds or sells out.
Here in the US, in theory, the physical servers (and their SAN backends) should be blanked, but if not and the data passes through to another party, that party holding the servers owns that data free and clear. A bank's private records could be available as a torrent, or the new server owner could legally charge a previous client of the folded firm for access to their files. Perhaps even make the files public unless a "reclamation fee" was paid.
Good luck keeping guys with tens of thousands of exploits out of it
Spies don't have to crack them if they're financial based businesses like banks. Every time the IRS expresses an "interest" in the account information, they roll over on their backs. I would expect no less from them if any other three letter agency wanted more information, especially if any of those "interests" involved doing business with the US.
Never have a philosophy which supports a lack of courage
Because no country existing outside of a dystopic novel has anything comparable to the NSA. Inb4 China: China's massive espionage ends at their borders, outside there it's just the usual, they don't even monitor WoW despite the risk of gnome terrorists.
Three more Swiss banks join US tax deal - Reuters - 12 hours ago.
Swiss banks are supposedly the safest place to store money, If the Swiss are willing to share customer data with the US, what else can't they share?
Just another tentacle of the Nothing is beyond our reach motto.
We need a place where global laws don't apply, and there is no such place, for the lawmasters control all.
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
When was the last significant hack?
When was the last significant physical hack?
Physical security means nothing if you don't have better network security.
I don't think physical barriers, no matter how impressive, are going to protect against leaks or spies.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
nt
All will be fine until 10 years from now, when the Swiss will be accused of hoarding Jewish BitCoin from Holocaust survivors....
That I'm right, and you don't like it, doesn't mean I'm a troll.
The US owns the Swiss banking system now, I'd bet they own most of the other infrastructure as well.
Someone ought to take a leaf from Cryptonomicon and find a country somewhere that is willing to say "screw you" if the US or its allies come knocking on the door, has a stable political system (whether that be democratically elected or not) and is willing to host a big data center to hold all the crap the US would rather not be hosted (WikiLeaks etc) and all the crap the US wants to get its hands on.
The solution to data longevity is such things as:
-Redundant storage
-Globally distributed storage
-Fragmentation and reassembly of data (so no host is responsible for content, since it is all just fragments)
-A protocol whereby the network monitors how many copies of a datum there are and creates more copies if it can't find enough.
-A protocol that automatically migrates data fragements to both newer host storage and more reliable host storage gradually over time.
-Re-wrappable encryption protocol
-Onion routing for access
-An economic model such as quid pro quo storage sharing (you store some of anonymous others' fragments, they store some of yours, no money exchanged.
-Storage of metadata and programming language execution environments and programs (with instructions) along with data
Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
Its easy to encrypt data for storage. Its easy to store the keys hidden somewhere offline. Why have high security storage?
Now, when it comes to processing and distributing data, then you might have a need to some real security. In cases where you can't do that yourself, such as high volume sites (Say, The Pirate Bay, or perhaps just some stupidly centralized system for foolish users, like email or social networks), having a more secure (against government, as well as private threats) could be handy, especially if you can pay anonymously. I have a feeling they won't offer that kind of thing though. If you offer than, and really have the desired privacy, you see nothing but encrypted data coming and going to unknown users paid for by unknown hosts: that would enable anyone to host anything with full immunity as long as they arn't stupid. There arn't many countries lining up to be the official host of all things oppressed (piracy, hit-men, child porn, human trafficking etc.) Maybe they are willing to really serve up the freedom to the world, but I have a feeling the world wouldn't really stay connected to them if they did.
I was in the process of writing a post about how physical protection means nothing and how the data would would have to be online to be useful anyway when it hit me. Backups. IMO this doesn't make sense as a "keep people out of my data" thing as much as a "I can't lose my data no matter what" thing.
You want your data to be safe ? Send it to the moon. Careful about the storage format - etched metal plates are probably the most durable. But pick encoding that an alien could understand and decode. See Voyager Golden Record.
http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.slashdot.org Errors found while checking this document as HTML5!
You don't haz it.
The number of people pounding on about banks in this story's comments is hilarious. This data vault has nothing to do with a bank!
I wouldn't worry so much about the physical access of a data center.
Surely centralizing our data will keep it from prying eyes!
---Up Up Down Down Left Right Left Right B A START
The only safe way to store your data is within your own bank, over a secured connection. Unlike tangibles like money and gold, data can be reproduced at marginal cost nearly zero and stored anywhere in the world. You could basically leave it in a remote location with a solar powered system. You can make the data look like garbage too, in a few seconds.
Outside of that, the server rooms are not worth individual storage and just a marketing image
Not anymore.
Switzerland stood up to the nazis, but they caved to the American IRS. There is no more reason to trust a Swiss bank today.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
The Swiss banks are not secret anymore. The laws changed and the NSA and GCHQ monitors all SWIFT and other transfers as well.
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
we should not forget, that switzerland has strong data protection laws.
The swiss numbered account as a bastion of privacy is a thing of the past. The swiss turn over bank information on request to the US. Why on earth would we even begin to trust them with our data? That's no better than giving it directly to the NSA to begin with.
They already caved to the IRS. Why would we expect them not to cave to the NSA?
We need an organization with the stones to hold the line. The swiss have made it clear that they won't go to bat for anyone else... even their own clients/customers. So... that is over.
We need to see some one out there willing to sacrifice to hold the line. I want to see a group that has their feet held to the fire until they crisp... and yet not break.
Sound extreme? Its an extreme game. The swiss bankers are clearly weasels. They'll protect your identity and money so long as its easy and they're not challenged. They're fair weather players. They play when the sun is shining and the winds are calm. But when all hell breaks lose... they'll abandon you to be torn apart by jackals. And we can get that kind of service from any data host on earth. Why bank my data with the Swiss? Anything special about them? The days of numbered bank accounts were clearly just an illusion. We believed they would protect us and they charged us extra for our belief.
All that is gone. If the swiss want this role... they'll have to show themselves willing to eat some pain for it. Will they suffer so much as the displeasure of the EU or US?
No... the only protection will be the deep web. Bury the servers so deep that the authorities can't find it. Then its safe.
Short of that... its all self deception.
I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
Here's one Swiss hoping we can vote FATCA down a black hole.
Our government sees itself in a difficult situation: we are very dependent on open trade agreements, not least because we are physically surrounded by the EU. So our government rolls over any time open trade is threatened. Many of us think they need to take a harder line. For example, the agreement with the EU requires us to accept essentially unlimited numbers of immigrants - what sovereign country would ever sign away the right to determine its own immigration policy. Now we that we have the issue with FATCA, there is at least a chance that the population will tell the government that it has gone too far.
Enjoy life! This is not a dress rehearsal.
We had this for ages. Swiss is a tad late on the concept.....
http://cyberbunker.com/web/history.php
One does not simply ssh into Mordor!
do:
ssh root@mordor.tx.us 'mv /dev/ring /mnt/doom'
Switzerland mooches its defense off the West, and now seeks to profit from its security.
Many are saying that the banks bent to the US, so the data-centers will too. However, there are a few problems with this comparison and I think it needs to be pointed out that it's quite a different case.
So Switzerland has had strong bank secrecy laws for years. Also, for years these bank secrecy laws have been heavily critisized all around the world. And for years Switzerland has made a lot of money with them, because clients used Swiss banks to avoid taxes, 'possibly' money laundering and such. So these laws have been looked at as rather negative.
So then the financial crisis hit and all of a sudden all the nations were looking for quick and easy money. The US, Germany and many more. Well, it turns out that you can quickly make some money by simply collecting all these taxes that you've missed out on for years. And I mean these clients that tried to avoid taxes by putting their money into Swiss banks simply did something illegal.
So the banks were pressured very hard to release the information. And banks are a very very big deal in Switzerland. I mean the UBS is huge for Switzerland. It's simply the 'too-big-to-fail' company in Switzerland. In order to 'save' the banking business Switzerland didn't have much of a choice then to simply give in.
Now le'ts look at the situation with data-centers:
Firstly, they're far far away from being as big and important as the banks. If the trend keeps going then they will gain importance, but I doubt that data-centers will ever deal with as much money as banks.
Secondly, the privacy laws in Switzerland are not looked at as negative. Instead they're looked at as highly positive and this only got stronger with snowden's leak.
So with the bank secrecy laws it was like the world vs Switzerland. With the privacy laws it's more like the world behind Switzerland vs the US.
Of course with the privacy laws there is the problem that a lot of piracy may happen in those data-centers and that might give the US some attack surface. E.g. the Swiss based firm rapidshare gets under a lot of pressure because of that. But that can still be solved separately from privacy and I don't believe it's comparable to the bank secrecy situation.
And a word about the Swiss intelligence service: Compared to the NSA it's joke.
Obviously the funding of the two isn't comparable at all. The local laws are completely different (we don't have any kind of patriot act).
I'm pretty sure that even a small nuke would burn through four tons of steel in a door.
Notwithstanding that you don't need to destroy the door to get in, the hinges would suffice.
What is the armed guard there for ? Who cares if they pinch the hard drives. Prove to me that nobody has access to it by simply giving me the encryption keys. I want to know the data is inaccessible even if they are hosted by the NSA.
What's a "leaks scandal"?
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Yeah, NSA may be more pervasive worldwide, but if you truly believe China's espionage efforts aren't also focused outside of their country, I know someone with some prime marshland you might be interested in.
Yes, China does spy on people.
But at the very least, China does not do that and then say to the world "The world should THANK US for keeping them safe".
I was from China. In fact, I ran away from China. I dislike China's communist party as much as anybody else, and I am a naturalized American citizen.
But still, fair is fair.
While what NSA did technically was not that much different from what others do (which includes democratic countries such as England, Australia, Canada, New Zealand and France), morally, the United States government has sunk lower than that of China !
China steals others secret but never pretend to be THE PROTECTOR, unlike the Hussein (aka Barry Soetoro) Barack Obama Administration of the United States of America !
Now, about that piece of marshland, I think you can keep it.
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
Swiss privacy laws haven't changed. See my other post. The only time a bank/banker can legally turn over information is when there's evidence that the money is linked to a crime, for example, african and middle eastern leaders that embezzled government money, drug lord money, etc.
"AN armed guard"
Really? One? I mean, at least they could hire two so that they could use the plural and keep us all guessing whether it was a small army.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
lovely. GO home Plug AV : )
So your complaining that Criminals and Tax Cheats can't hide their money anymore?
Everything is on a sliding scale. Some Island country isn't going to protect your data any better than Sweden when any other country with bigger guns says; "tell us what we want to know."
A larger country with ETHICS that will stand on principle -- yes. But Swedish banks never really had ethics so on that basis, why would they not fold like a dollar bill?
The criminal has a conundrum no matter where they hide their data / funds. So of course they go to the Caymans where the US protects them because they have both big guns and no scruples.
>>"ad space available -- low rates!!!"
The swiss could just store the data in unconnected servers and fly in tape on private jets for the critical customers. Only allow servers to be physically connected for live backup restore streams OR use unmarked encrypted hard drives shipped through fedex to a dropoff point where client picks up the data.
Or send the data on encrypted sd cards to a trained pigeon farm and the pigeon wearing kevlar body armor to protect against hawks flies the last leg.
Great news. U.S Internet services are not safe nor secure and can't be trusted anymore. If you are concerned about your business and attracting more customers then you will do well in buying European or Asian services from now on.
Signature intentionally left blank.
Who is a criminal and who is not? One state might take one view and another a different view. Making sure your money wasn't at the mercy of the views of any state and protected from them was what the Swiss Banks and Swiss neutrality were supposed to be all about.
A state might be able to imprison me and try to coerce me in to handing over my property but ultimately the responsibility to resist that and keep my money despite it once rested with me if my money was in a Swiss bank. Now it isn't secure at all, it is at the whim of random nations.
Swiss banks turn over your information to foreign governments on request. Once upon a time funds in a Swiss account were protected from random states opinions about what was or was not a crime. Now the swiss hand over data to the US on a routine basis.
They rolled over for the IRS when push came to shove over their super secret banking transactions.
Why would we believe they'd treat our data any differently.
Because no country existing outside of a dystopic novel has anything comparable to the NSA.
Just like absolutely any other country, Switzerland has secret services too.
Ours are called "ONYX" and even made some news in the press, when they "accidentally leaked" (in the Blick) an intercepted fax to the egyptian embassy about the CIA "outsourcing" torture in east-europeab black sites.
(Yup, not only do we have our own NSA, we even have our own whistle blowers).
(Note: In our case the revealing journalist has been cleared).
Glory to Arstotzka!
Yeah, I know, you were sarcastic.
they don't even monitor WoW despite the risk of gnome terrorists.
Also known as "The Great War of the Lawn Ornaments" - which lasted until the swiss cows complained to the UN.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
about how Switzerland helped the US spy on countries that it doesn't have any diplomatic relations with.
While also helping China. You know, to stay "neutral" by not favouring one side over the other(*).
(*): "Don't favour one side" has actually happened a few times as an historical Swiss Military strategy.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
Given how the Swiss are currently trying to figure out how to limit giving out banking data to the US
By law our banks aren't allowed to give the data out, anyway.
The solution chosen by Swiss Banks? Kick out US clients and stop doing any business with them. Problem solved.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
The Swiss no longer have that reputation. When they started letting the United States government look at bank accounts.
the swiss aren't as neutral as they seem.
"Gnome terrorists"? I thought version 3 was pretty much shit, but terrorists? Really?
Piece of advice: you probably shouldn't post while you're either that drunk or stupid. I'm going to guess that means you probably shouldn't post at all.
So am I to understand you will no longer be posting here? Thank God
You're right that Switzerland provided a haven for Jews to store their money, but that doesn't change the fact that it also provided a haven for Nazis to store their looted wealth also. You're completely wrong to imply Switzerland only banked for oppressed Jews. It very much banked for the oppressing Nazis as well.
Yeah well guess what? The US of today is just as bad as the Nazi Germany of yesterday. So what you're saying is the Swiss are therefore bad people for doing business with the US? Do you think the average Swiss person had any clue the Nazis were imprisoning people in huge concentration camps and executing them by the millions, until after the war was over and all this was revealed?
If you don't like the income tax laws or the IRS, there is no law against renouncing your citizenship and taking up residence in a nation with a more lenient tax system.
I got a better idea: how about I just stay right where I'm at and store my money in Switzerland, or better yet convert it to gold bullion and bury it in my back yard, because fuck you. If you don't like that, there's no law against you renouncing your citizenship and moving to another nation where people and their money are more tightly controlled, like China for instance.
It's still dirty money that the Swiss got wealthy off of regardless of what the people of Switzerland did or didn't know or what the US doesn't or doesn't do today.
And your point is what, exactly? Repeated for the third since you apparently can't read. I asked a question: so what is your fucking point? That the Swiss are evil? If not, then what are you ranting on about? If so, then how can you justify such a judgment in comparison to other countries such as the U.S., England, etc which had a direct hand in the horrible and painful deaths of millions of people? Yeah the Germans killed a lot of Jews, gays, etc. The U.S. and Britain fire bombed cities full of millions of people. So what's your point?