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No Longer "Noble"; Argon Compound Found In Space

mbstone writes "Scientists at the University College of London — where argon was originally discovered in 1894 — have now found spectroscopic signatures of molecules of argon hydride (ArH), said to be produced via explosive nucleosynthesis in a core-collapse supernova in the Crab Nebula. The post-supernova molecular dust was observed by the Herschel Space Observatory shortly before it ran out of coolant in April.."

110 comments

  1. What does the comment about "Noble" mean? by hubie · · Score: 0

    I don't get the connection between the title and the summary.

    1. Re:What does the comment about "Noble" mean? by hubie · · Score: 0

      Never mind. I figured it out.

    2. Re:What does the comment about "Noble" mean? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Noble as in inert - it's not supposed to react to form a stable molecule.

    3. Re:What does the comment about "Noble" mean? by DoctorChestburster79 · · Score: 3, Informative

      I don't get the connection between the title and the summary.

      That far right side of the Periodic Table...where Helium, Neon, Xenon, Argon, and Radon live. Those elements have always been taught as being chemically inert (i.e. not able to be combined with any other elements), hence why they are called "noble" gases. This apparently is the first instance where that rule isn't necessarily true.

    4. Re:What does the comment about "Noble" mean? by _Shad0w_ · · Score: 3, Informative

      Only it's not; apparently compounds of the noble gases have been known for a while. The only thing there's no known compound of is helium. At least that's what one my chemistry friends is telling me.

      --

      Yeah, I had a sig once; I got bored of it.

    5. Re:What does the comment about "Noble" mean? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not the first example of a noble gas reacting - xenon difluoride is know, and in fact commercially available.

      Argon, however, is incredibly inert - we fill our inert-atmosphere glovebox (1 ppm air, 1ppm water) with it ...

    6. Re:What does the comment about "Noble" mean? by rubycodez · · Score: 4, Informative

      But worth explaining for others that either didn't have chemistry class or maybe snoozed through it. The atoms of "noble" gases have their outer electron shell full so are very non-reactive, they usually don't make chemical bounds with other elements except under extraordinary circumstances requiring a lot of energy. Helium, neon, argon, and radon are probably the ones most people have heard mentioned at some time in daily life.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_gas

    7. Re:What does the comment about "Noble" mean? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      This isn't even a compound, though. It's a molecular ion, ArH+. If you added an electron to it, it would fall apart, since ArH (neutral) is not bound.

      A similar molecular ion exists for helium, HeH+. This ion is very important for the evolution of the early universe, since it can emit IR radiation to cool gas clouds, allowing stars to form from the nearly-pure H/He clouds that existed after the big bang.

    8. Re:What does the comment about "Noble" mean? by DaTrueDave · · Score: 3, Informative
    9. Re:What does the comment about "Noble" mean? by Vlad_the_Inhaler · · Score: 1

      Several of the others form more-or-less stable molecules- usually with Hydrogen, none had been found for Argon up to now.
      The circumstances under which it forms appear to be rather extreme. I don't know enough (ok, anything) about Nuclear Chemistry to know if it is significant that the Isotope is Ar36 rather than the Ar40 we get here. Normally it would make no difference but this is an extreme case.

      --
      Mielipiteet omiani - Opinions personal, facts suspect.
    10. Re:What does the comment about "Noble" mean? by nbritton · · Score: 5, Informative

      Noble as in inert - it's not supposed to react to form a stable molecule.

      Noble doesn't imply non-reactive, all of the noble elements can be ionized, with enough energy, just like any other element. What it means is they have a stable electron configuration. Helium, Neon, Argon, Krypton, Xenon, and Radon all have there outermost electron orbital shells filled. This means they're not inclined to give, borrow, or take electrons from other elements, this is why there called noble.

      The fact that argon hydride was found in space implies that krypton, xenon, and radon hydride can also be found in space.

    11. Re:What does the comment about "Noble" mean? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      This, mod parent up up up.

      Noble elements aren't that because they CANNOT combine with things, they are that because they RARELY combine with things.
      Their outer shell is pretty bloated, so the amount of things they can combine with are extremely limited.

      Title is so horribly wrong.
      A better title would have been "Less Noble, argon compound found in space."
      More so because it was found in nature, which is pretty damn impressive to find.

    12. Re:What does the comment about "Noble" mean? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      heh...

    13. Re: What does the comment about "Noble" mean? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      36Ar is the cosmically abundant isotope. On Earth, most argon is 40 Ar, because it comes from the radioactive decay of 40K. Earth is poor in 36Ar because it formed at a position in the solar nebula too warm to condense Ar.

    14. Re:What does the comment about "Noble" mean? by JustOK · · Score: 0

      I thought Two and a Half Men followed the Big Bang?

      --
      rewriting history since 2109
    15. Re:What does the comment about "Noble" mean? by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      it's just there so that the submitter could act snobby with knowledge and fail at it.

      I really doubt anyone is going to stop using argon for it's relatively inert properties because if this..

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    16. Re:What does the comment about "Noble" mean? by Joce640k · · Score: 1

      You mean my plans to build an Argon bomb and take over the world aren't going to work?

      Damn.

      --
      No sig today...
    17. Re:What does the comment about "Noble" mean? by gstrickler · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The fact that argon hydride was found in space implies that krypton, xenon, and radon hydride can also be found in space.

      Probably, but since the quantities of those elements will be dramatically lower than argon, detecting them will likely be much more difficult.

      --
      make imaginary.friends COUNT=100 VISIBLE=false
    18. Re:What does the comment about "Noble" mean? by gstrickler · · Score: 2

      You mean my plans to build an Argon bomb and take over the world aren't going to work?

      You'll just have to use 39Ar or 42Ar, and probably need a H-fusion reaction to detonate it.

      --
      make imaginary.friends COUNT=100 VISIBLE=false
    19. Re:What does the comment about "Noble" mean? by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 2

      I don't get the connection between the title and the summary.

      That far right side of the Periodic Table...where Helium, Neon, Xenon, Argon, and Radon live. Those elements have always been taught as being chemically inert (i.e. not able to be combined with any other elements), hence why they are called "noble" gases. This apparently is the first instance where that rule isn't necessarily true.

      Of course it took the energy of the collapse of a star to produce those compounds, so for practical purpose, those gases are still all pretty noble.

    20. Re:What does the comment about "Noble" mean? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope, it's now the Millers.

    21. Re:What does the comment about "Noble" mean? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's just a theory, anyway.

    22. Re:What does the comment about "Noble" mean? by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 5, Funny

      That far right side of the Periodic Table

      Also known as the fascist elements.

      --
      systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
    23. Re:What does the comment about "Noble" mean? by Deadstick · · Score: 2

      Helium, neon, argon, and radon are probably the ones most people have heard mentioned

      Everybody's heard of krypton, although most of them think it's a planet and Tom Clancy couldn't spell it.

    24. Re:What does the comment about "Noble" mean? by atomicdragon · · Score: 1

      Argon compounds have been formed in the lab for nearly 15 years. No Nobel compounds have been directly observed in space of any kind, which is the new part, not that Argon in particular was found in a compound.

    25. Re:What does the comment about "Noble" mean? by Vlad_the_Inhaler · · Score: 1

      Elements which can't combine with anyone else, "herding cats" comes to mind.

      --
      Mielipiteet omiani - Opinions personal, facts suspect.
    26. Re:What does the comment about "Noble" mean? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      No, noble != inert

      When I first learned about the elements many years ago, the description for those elements in the rightmost column was "inert". This means completely non-reactive.

      Later on, when chemists made compounds of xenon, they realized the elements might not be so inert, after all. They gave the elements a new name: noble. They were not truly inert, but tended to have that tendency. Like other noble elements--such as gold or platinum--the elements in the rightmost column were disdainful of mixing with the hoi-polloi. It didn't mean they couldn't combine with other elements; they are just disinclined.

    27. Re:What does the comment about "Noble" mean? by VortexCortex · · Score: 1

      Have any evidence to support your hypothesis that the big bang is just a theory?

      According to my parents I am direct evidence the big bang,
      and my hair and skin are different than theirs due to the uncertainty principal.

    28. Re:What does the comment about "Noble" mean? by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 1

      ...and my hair and skin are different than theirs due to the uncertainty principal.

      As is Quantum Mechanics or one of them isn't sure they're your parent?

      --
      It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    29. Re:What does the comment about "Noble" mean? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      NEUTRAL argon compounds have been known for about 15 years (the compound HArF, stable below about 17 K).

      Argon molecular ions such as this one have been known for much longer.

      Note that ArH+ is isoelectronic with the neutral molecule hydrogen chloride, so it should not be surprising that it's stable.

    30. Re:What does the comment about "Noble" mean? by rubycodez · · Score: 2

      There are the "fullerene compounds", like He@C60, where noble gas atom is trapped inside carbon fullerene. that @ sign means trapped atom. they have distinct chemical properties even though the inside noble gas isn't chemically bonded but instead surrounded by carbon. Argon, Krypton and Xenon ones exist also.

    31. Re:What does the comment about "Noble" mean? by Sique · · Score: 3, Informative

      Actually, it's much more complicated. The gas Argon got its name from greek "argos", which means inert. The chemical group got the name of "noble gases" at the end of the 19th century from William Ramsay (Nobel prize in 1904). The first compound of a noble gas was discovered in 1962 by Neil Bartlett. Argon was the last noble gas for which a compound could be synthesized (2000).

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    32. Re:What does the comment about "Noble" mean? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Not a single "krypton can be found in space" joke? really?

    33. Re:What does the comment about "Noble" mean? by Zynder · · Score: 1

      I think the Krypton in space was destroyed in a supernova...

    34. Re:What does the comment about "Noble" mean? by Zynder · · Score: 3, Funny

      You are both wrong. You have to use Illudium which must be detonated with a Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator. If you don't, you won't have an Earth-shattering Kaboom!

    35. Re:What does the comment about "Noble" mean? by Zynder · · Score: 1

      You get a big ol WHOOSH today. That was a joke. JustOk called the show Big Bang but the show's name is The Big Bang Theory, hence why AC said it was just a theory. You are so eager to get your troll on, you miss some of the obvious stuff.

    36. Re:What does the comment about "Noble" mean? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Have any evidence to support your hypothesis that the big bang is just a theory?

      From wikipedia.
      > The Big Bang theory is the prevailing cosmological model that describes the early development of the Universe.[1]

      That happens to link to 2 sources. It's a theory because there's evidence that fits the model, evidence that does not, and no way to make an experiment to reproduce it.

    37. Re:What does the comment about "Noble" mean? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      'Krytron' in the Clancy oeuvre is a valid term, if that's what you're thinking. It refers to a vacuum tube used to trigger other devices with precise timing characteristics.

    38. Re: What does the comment about "Noble" mean? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lol, did you miss the part of his post where he said that his parents having intercourse is a "big bang" that predates some television show?

      I mean, my parents told me about one night where the power went out, but a big bang?

    39. Re:What does the comment about "Noble" mean? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Evidently the substance was expelled from a black hole with explosive di-ArH-ea.

    40. Re:What does the comment about "Noble" mean? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How do they know this argon hydride they found in space wasn't produced in some high-energy reaction?

    41. Re:What does the comment about "Noble" mean? by aurizon · · Score: 1

      These hydrates or clathrates are not ionic or co-valently bonded.

      They are looser associations.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane_clathrate

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clathrate_compound

    42. Re:What does the comment about "Noble" mean? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Noble as in inert - it's not supposed to react to form a stable molecule.

      Noble doesn't imply non-reactive, all of the noble elements can be ionized, with enough energy, just like any other element. What it means is they have a stable electron configuration. Helium, Neon, Argon, Krypton, Xenon, and Radon all have there outermost electron orbital shells filled. This means they're not inclined to give, borrow, or take electrons from other elements, this is why there called noble.

      The fact that argon hydride was found in space implies that krypton, xenon, and radon hydride can also be found in space.

      Actually, the fact that it's been observed cavorting with lady Hydrogen means it will be stripped of all lands and its hereditary title as a noble gas and sent north in disgrace to the Wall to join the brothers of the Night's Watch.

    43. Re:What does the comment about "Noble" mean? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Does this count? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helium_hydride_ion

      No, because you found it on [wikipedia.org] which no learnèd academic trusts as it can be edited by anyone. Remember when Wikipedia stated that the purpose of Paul Revere's ride was to warn the Brits that they would not be taking our guns, because that shitwit retard Sarah Palin humiliated herself by saying so in front of a camera, in response to the "gotcha!" question, "so... what did you see on your tour?" The existence of the phenomenon of the "edit war" renders Wikipedia useless for any purpose other than finding out what "information" and "facts" have been spooned into the dribbling mouths of the common idiots who use Wikipedia.

      Call me a troll if you like, but like shooting the messenger, it doesn't change the truth of the message. Try writing a research paper in college, and having "Wikipedia" among your cited works. See what happens to you. The Modern Language Association and American Psychological Association (MLA and APA) actually have specific entries in their style manuals for how to cite Wikipedia. Under the heading is one word: DON'T.

    44. Re:What does the comment about "Noble" mean? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Modern Language Association and American Psychological Association (MLA and APA) actually have specific entries in their style manuals for how to cite Wikipedia. Under the heading is one word: DON'T.

      I guess you demonstrate why citing actual books doesn't work either, considering the current edition of the MLA and APA guides don't have specific entries concerning Wikipedia. The APA does remind you to use the access date for when citing a wiki.

      By the way, you're more than welcome to check any of the nearly twenty citations in the Wikipedia article, some of which the title of the academic journal article alone makes the point the GP was trying to make. And while outside of special cases you won't see Wikipedia cited in an academic journal, articles get referenced constantly in informal conversation in academia, "Hey Bob, if you wanted a quick summary of XYZ, the Wikipedia article covers it well, but you will need to go elsewhere for ABC."

    45. Re:What does the comment about "Noble" mean? by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      Noble doesn't imply non-reactive,

      Yes it did, originally. For the first 30 or 40 years after they were discovered, none of them had any known chemical compounds. Off the top of my head, xenon compounds were discovered in the late 1940s, krypton by the late 1950s, I'm not sure about argon's history, and neon compounds were announced some time since I was a student, so post 1980s.

      all of the noble elements can be ionized, with enough energy, just like any other element. What it means is they have a stable electron configuration. Helium, Neon, Argon, Krypton, Xenon, and Radon all have there outermost electron orbital shells filled.

      True, but not relevant ; the term "noble gasses" was in use long before there was any detailed understanding of atomic orbitals. The law of octets - related to classical valence theory - on the other hand, goes back to [I've forgotten his name] who was groping towards the theory of the periodic table a couple of decades before Mendeleev, and so nearly 4 decades before the discovery of helium.

      This means they're not inclined to give, borrow, or take electrons from other elements, this is why there called noble.

      This is in flat contradiction to your first statement.

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
  2. What's next? by DaTrueDave · · Score: 4, Informative

    Do we categorize Argon as a non-noble gas, or do we redefine what a noble gas actually is?

    Wait, I guess noble doesn't mean what I thought it meant, or there were already plenty of exceptions, as I just read this wiki article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_gas_compounds

    1. Re:What's next? by jo_ham · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Argon has already been shown to be "non-noble" many years ago - hell, you can buy Argon compounds from chemical suppliers right now (like Argon difluoride).

      The title is simply scientific ignorance.

    2. Re:What's next? by rmdingler · · Score: 3, Funny

      This. Instead of shopping for Christmas before the Baptists get out of church and flood the stores, I am looking up noble gases, then noble metals, and then electric potential on a Sunday morning.... sigh.

      --
      Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

      Ernest Hemingway

    3. Re:What's next? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do we categorize Argon as a non-noble gas, or do we redefine what a noble gas actually is?

      Steady on there. I still haven't quite got my head round out what Pluto is now without you redefining noble gasses as well!

    4. Re:What's next? by Tim+the+Gecko · · Score: 3, Informative

      Argon has already been shown to be "non-noble" many years ago - hell, you can buy Argon compounds from chemical suppliers right now (like Argon difluoride).

      I think you mean Xenon difluoride. I can't find any reports of Argon difluoride being produced.

    5. Re:What's next? by jeffb+(2.718) · · Score: 4, Informative

      You are confused. You can buy xenoncompounds off the shelf, but certainly not argon compounds. Nobody has yet made argon difluoride, and I'm not sure current theory supports its existence.

      The first synthesis of an argon compound was reported in 2000, so the first part of the headline is misleading -- this discovery itself doesn't "demote" argon. But it's still interesting news.

    6. Re:What's next? by jeffb+(2.718) · · Score: 1

      Noble gas compounds are, indeed, old news. No need to change names or categorizations, though. After all, we still refer to human members of "the nobility", no matter how ignobly they may behave.

    7. Re:What's next? by jo_ham · · Score: 1

      I do mean XeF2 - I put Ar instead without proofing my comment.

    8. Re:What's next? by jo_ham · · Score: 1

      Yes, I meant to write xenon difluriode (we have some in the lab), not argon.

    9. Re:What's next? by mysidia · · Score: 2

      Do we categorize Argon as a non-noble gas, or do we redefine what a noble gas actually is?

      We don't necessarily need to do either; the article headline is a little bit misleading.

      Non-reactivity, or the non-existence of molecules is not inherent to the definition of Noble gas. Non-reactivity is a description of what is believed to be true about noble gasses. The noble gasses were long believed to be completely nonreactive; but now, compounds of Xenon, Krypton, Radon.... and now Argon are known. We just need to find some compounds of Helium and Neon, and then.... compounds will be known of all the noble gasses.

      Well, for two: explosive nucleosynthesis in a core-collapse supernova is not exactly your every day chemical reaction.

      For three: Argon is still relatively inert. For the most part; you will not find compounds of argon in nature, or common materials that Argon will readily form compounds with in ordinary chemical reactions.

    10. Re: What's next? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A much better use of your time than succumbing to the over-commercialization of Christmas.

    11. Re:What's next? by fermion · · Score: 3, Informative

      These things are often oversimplified to teach the basics. For the purposes of a introductory chemistry class, the group 18 elements are not going to play a part in chemical reactions under everyday circumstances. This is simplified down to 8 valence electrons. When one talks about s^2p^6 for everything but He, all the eyes starts going into the forehead and all the other details become lost and questions such as 'is this going to be on the test' get most of the attention. What we are talking about here is not ordinary chemistry, but supernovas, which build most other elements out of the noble gas Helium.

      --
      "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
    12. Re:What's next? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      We just need to find some compounds of Helium and Neon, and then.... compounds will be known of all the noble gasses.

      Spectra of neon and helium hydride ions have been observed years ago in the lab, which is what was found here with Argon. Neutral argon compounds have been formed in the lab years ago too.

    13. Re:What's next? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      not going to play a part in chemical reactions under everyday circumstances.

      The funny thing, is after some very difficult attempts it took to form the first xenon compounds, confirming it is very difficult to form such compounds, someone realized it could be done a lot easier with just UV light from the sun. Filling a jar with fluorine and xenon gas, leave it in the sun, and you will get xenon fluoride.

    14. Re:What's next? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Noble Gas compound in application: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excimer_laser

    15. Re:What's next? by tlhIngan · · Score: 1

      Do we categorize Argon as a non-noble gas, or do we redefine what a noble gas actually is?

      Neither.

      A noble element is one that has its valence shell full. That's it. That's why it's in that column of the periodic table.

      It doesn't mean it won't react, it's just got less reason to (atoms normally bond to fill up their valence shell with electrons by sharing them with other atoms). That just means that two noble elements are not likely to bond together (no sharing going on). However, that doesn't mean some other element short of electron(s) won't want to bond with a noble element in order to "borrow" its electrons.

    16. Re:What's next? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Noble metals do not have full valence shell. For a narrow definition of a noble metal, it means the d shell has been filled, but also gets used for any metal that is not particularly reactive, or is at the top of the galvanic series.

    17. Re:What's next? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm going to call BS. You thought it was Argon, were wrong, got called out, and now you're trying to backtrack. Your argument was that the article's title was wrong because Argon was shown to be non-noble years ago and that you could buy compounds now. Unless you for some reason think that the existence of Xenon difluoride implicates the existance of argon compounds.

    18. Re:What's next? by jo_ham · · Score: 1

      I'm going to call BS. You thought it was Argon, were wrong, got called out, and now you're trying to backtrack. Your argument was that the article's title was wrong because Argon was shown to be non-noble years ago and that you could buy compounds now. Unless you for some reason think that the existence of Xenon difluoride implicates the existance of argon compounds.

      I should probably stop you there. I'm a professional chemist.

      You can claim I was trying to backtrack, or you can accept that I typed the wrong element because the entire story is about Argon. I personally know a guy who studies argon complexes spectroscopically and he's been doing it for a lot longer than the date of this article.

      I am well versed in group 18, and use one of its members (Argon!) pretty much every day (except weekends).

      Chemists have known for a long time that the "noble" gasses aren't really noble, hence the reluctance to use that name for them. The only real holdout in group 18 is Neon.

      Oh, you also forgot to log in, kid. Silly you!

    19. Re:What's next? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Chemists have known for a long time that the "noble" gasses aren't really noble, hence the reluctance to use that name for them.

      I don't know what sub field you might work in, but I haven't seen any reluctance to call them noble, nor does the existence of compounds make any of the chemist I work with less likely to call them noble. If you stick to the physics definition about certain orbitals being full, then it doesn't matter if they form compounds or not. If you are look more at something like a galvanic series or just general reactivity, then nobility is not a binary, yes-no, property, and the difficulty they have with forming compounds means they are still noble. Compounds of silver and gold have been known for much longer, yet they are still considered to have high nobility.

      The only real holdout in group 18 is Neon.

      How is neon any more of a hold out than helium? Both form non-neutral ions, or excited neutral compounds, but neither has be found to have a stable ground state neutral compound.

  3. We are stardust, we are golden. . . by auric_dude · · Score: 1

    And now we are Argon?

    1. Re:We are stardust, we are golden. . . by VortexCortex · · Score: 1

      And my Axis!

      If you get to be Argon, I get to be Gimble. Legos anyone?

  4. So now it's by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Argone.

  5. xenon not so noble either by Gothmolly · · Score: 2

    xenon will combine with halogens. anything will combine with anything, you just need enough juice.

    --
    I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
    1. Re:xenon not so noble either by hardtofindanick · · Score: 2

      Still trying to figure out if that is a dirty comment.

    2. Re:xenon not so noble either by Nivag064 · · Score: 1

      I got a shock 50 years ago, when I read an article about xenon compounds when I was 13. My background reading had given me the impression that the 'noble' elements did not form compounds.

      Note, once (same school year) I was meant to have read a chapter on Calcium for Chemistry homework, which I didn't read - but my background reading was sufficient, so that everybody implicitly assumed that I had read that chapter very well!

    3. Re:xenon not so noble either by jeffb+(2.718) · · Score: 4, Informative

      Anything will combine with anything -- it just won't stay combined. You can rip as many electrons off (say) neon as you like, throw it in with another species, and watch them stick together long enough for neon to nab the electrons it wants -- but you won't get a compound that persists. Similarly, you can force xenon and anything together, but only a few pairings will produce compounds stable at even cryogenic temperatures.

    4. Re:xenon not so noble either by jeffb+(2.718) · · Score: 1

      I was quite some time behind you, but the libraries I was borrowing from were even further behind. I learned about the nobles from one of Asimov's excellent non-fiction popular chemistry books, and from a 1950s edition of Britannica. I was thrilled when I found out that compounds actually existed.

    5. Re:xenon not so noble either by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Note, once (same school year) I was meant to have read a chapter on Calcium for Chemistry homework, which I didn't read - but my background reading was sufficient, so that everybody implicitly assumed that I had read that chapter very well!

      And I once scored four touchdowns in one game!

      Those were the days...

  6. Re:Hot stuff by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You saw that gay porn video, too, huh?

  7. One does not simply.... by wbr1 · · Score: 1

    ...declare me to not be noble. Denethor be damned.
    Oh, wait, argon, not Aragorn.

    --
    Silence is a state of mime.
  8. Simple solution in tune with the times by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Do we categorize Argon as a non-noble gas, or do we redefine what a noble gas actually is?

    Neither --- you're not thinking sufficiently American.

    Send the supernova a Cease & Desist letter. That'll teach'em to stop messing with us!

  9. El NIÑO by smittyoneeach · · Score: 3, Funny

    Noble In Name Only
    I thought we could rely on these gasses to stay true to their column on the periodic table, but, no, they've sold out, just like that whorish oxygen and hydrogen, which will twerk with even the most sordid elements of society.
    We're just going to have to look elsewhere for the stability we crave at all levels.

    --
    Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
  10. Re:Hot stuff by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm still trying to wrap my head around your spelling of "masturbate".

  11. Except by justthinkit · · Score: 2, Insightful

    they're not inclined to give, borrow, or take electrons from other elements

    Except these aren't the words used on the wiki page. The word I was taught is "share". For example, Hydrogen has one electron and desires two for stability. So it shares one from Oxygen or Carbon, etc. And in that sharing, Oxygen (desiring two) gets its needs satisfied by sharing one each with two Hydrogens.

    --
    I come here for the love
    1. Re:Except by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The phrase I was taught was "form a covalent bond" or "form an ionic bond"; giving, taking, borrowing and sharing were all things we did with toys in kindergarten.

  12. I feel so betray by DarkOx · · Score: 1

    Can't anything live up to its promise

    --
    Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
  13. If... by mha · · Score: 4, Informative

    ...you want to 1-up him you'll have to go for the quantum mechanic explanation of bonds. As far as *useful* models for chemical bonds go, even chemists use something pretty far from the "truth" . There are valence bond theory, orbital hybridization, resonance, and quite a few more.

    When it comes to explaining nature, you use the model that is most USEFUL for what you want to explain, not for the most complicated one possible to impress your peers because you are so smart. :) That is why in many books atoms are still represented by red, white, blue "balls" and no one complains about it.

    And by the way, the in the oxygen-hydrogen bond oxygen actually does sort of "borrow" the electron - the probability distribution for the location of that electron shifts towards the nucleus of the oxygen. That is why water molecules, while actually neutral (if not ionized), still act polar - the oxygen is essentially negative, the hydrogens positive. There is no equal "sharing".

    1. Re:If... by justthinkit · · Score: 0

      While I disagree with much of what you say, I'll just focus on this:

      ...that electron shifts towards the nucleus of the oxygen. That is why water molecules, while actually neutral (if not ionized), still act polar - the oxygen is essentially negative, the hydrogens positive.

      That is not why water acts polar. Water acts polar because of the nature of the oxygen atom itself. It has 6 electrons and wants to share 2 more. The electrons pair up into 4 groups or areas. Two of those areas are on the Oxygen atom only...think of them as rabbit ears. The other two share with Hydrogen atoms. Think of them like legs of the Oxygen. The point is that on half the Oxygen atom there are nothing but electrons...4 of them. This makes that side of the Oxygen negative. Oxygen is asymmetrically charged. THIS is why it acts polar. The side that is sharing electrons with the Hydrogen is neutral, the other side where there are 4 electrons, all part of the Oxygen atom in the first place, is negative. Not because the Oxygen is "out muscling" the Hydrogen.

      My original reason for posting was to point out that no atom is "taking" anything. That would completely unbalance the charges of a given atom. Not gonna happen. Instead it is a sharing. Yes the sharing can be a bit uneven, depending on the number of protons in the nucleus, atom size, room in the outer orbital, etc. etc. But bonds involving sharing of electrons. Period.

      When you fire off phrases like:
      There are valence bond theory, orbital hybridization, resonance, and quite a few more. it makes me realize that you don't have a clue what you are talking about. Throwing three descriptions at a concept does not explain it.

      --
      I come here for the love
    2. Re:If... by dkf · · Score: 1

      My original reason for posting was to point out that no atom is "taking" anything.

      When you've got "taking" of an electron, you've got ionisation.

      --
      "Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
    3. Re:If... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Throwing three descriptions at a concept does not explain it.

      The point he made, handily, was was that it wasn't worth explaining them to a troll.

    4. Re:If... by icebike · · Score: 1

      My original reason for posting was to point out that no atom is "taking" anything.

      When you've got "taking" of an electron, you've got ionisation.

      Well, TFA states explicitly that it the argon36 is essentially sharing an electron with hydrogen.
      So it appears there might be some "sharing" even if there is no "taking". Very polite. Plays well with others.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    5. Re:If... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am wondering where you learned this from. I remember quite clearly from college chemistry the parents description as oxygen is a strong oxidizer and it is a simple molecule and I don't follow that because he waved his hands about many models that he is somehow ignorant. Your model for instance is sorta right, but is incredibly simplistic and does not accurately account for electron shells, so...

    6. Re:If... by TheCarp · · Score: 1

      > Water acts polar because of the nature of the oxygen atom
      > itself. It has 6 electrons and wants to share 2 more. The
      > electrons pair up into 4 groups or areas. Two of those areas are
      > on the Oxygen atom only...think of them as rabbit ears.

      Sounds like what I studied in school; Only thing missing is that it is the geometry of putting 4 points around a central point that means you must get bunny ears and can't have a straight line (which would be non-polar)

      Water must get bent!

      --
      "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
    7. Re:If... by RockDoctor · · Score: 2

      Water acts polar because of the nature of the oxygen atom itself.

      Sort-of true. It's actually a consequence of the symmetries of p and s orbitals. Hybridising one s and three p orbitals (each oriented on one of the x, y and z axes gives you four "sp^3" orbitals. But that's true for any atom, not just oxygen. The symmetries involved - well can you think of a way that orients four directions in space in a maximally symmetrical manner and which doesn't end up with a tetrahedral orientation of the resultant orbitals.

      That tetrahedral orientation of the sp^3 orbitals is what leads to the asymmetry of water and therefore it's dipole moment (and incidentally ammonia, hydrogen sulphide and phosphine, but not methane, silane and the halides of hydrogen).

      This was all worked out in the mid-1930s, but I recall people struggling with it in the mid-80s when I was a student. It's not stunningly difficult, but it's not the easiest thing in the world either.

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
  14. This summary is unhelpful. by dandelionblue · · Score: 4, Informative

    The significant parts of this discovery are:

    - a noble gas has been found in space (this confirmed people's expectations that argon-36 could be found as part of a supernova, even though argon-40 is much more common on Earth - note that argon-36 is also available on Earth, just in smaller quantities, it's not a new isotope)
    - a noble gas molecule has been found in space (previously, argon compounds were only detected following Earth-based lab experiments)

    The significant part of this discovery is not:

    - that a noble gas can form a compound. Argon has had known compounds since 2003. Xenon has had known compounds since 1962, some of which are even stable at normal room temperature/pressure.

  15. Kryptonite! by Chemisor · · Score: 1

    It means I can finally synthesize some Kryptonite! Superman, all your base will be mine soon! Bwahahahahaha

  16. Re:Hot stuff by HornWumpus · · Score: 0

    Once you reach 3 dan in fapping you are a master.

    --
    John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  17. Give Argon A Break... by krisamico · · Score: 4, Funny

    ... It's not always easy to be noble under extreme conditions. Happens to the best of us!

  18. Re:Just Stuck Up. by anwyn · · Score: 1

    That is not Nobel, its just Stuck Up.

  19. Noble gas molecular ions have long been known by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Argon molecular ions were known well before that. The helium analogue, HeH+, was discovered in 1925!

  20. Nothing new about argon compounds. by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 1

    Argon forms compounds without too much coercion. Back in the mid '60s chemists were playing with them regularly. As I understand it (I'm NOT a chemist and haven't done this myself):

    Just mix argon and fuourine in a pressure vessel and heat it up. (VERY CAREFULLY! Fluorine gas is deadly!) You'll quickly get copious amounts of argon difluoride, tetrafluoride, and even some hexafluoride. These are stable enough to stick around once you bring things down to room temperatures.

    Once you've got them, there are techniques for substituting other stuff for one or more of the fluorines.

    But you DO have to be careful, even after the fluorine is out of the picture. I hear these compounds tend to be explosive, due to argon's propensity for dumping the riders and flying away alone.

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
  21. Oops. Had that confused. by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 1

    Did a little checking. It's Xenon that they were playing with back then. Xenon is reasonably easy to convince to make covalent bonds, and some of its compounds are used industrially and available in commercial quantities.

    Argon is less reactive, and they didn't get it to form compounds until 2000, with some encouragement from an ultraviolet light source to kick an electron up to another level.

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
  22. Wisdom follows, pay attention! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    > No Longer "Noble"; Argon Compound Found In Space

    Typical Bitcoin fanboy phraseology, trying to spread FUD. In fact, gold is still a noble metal, even though it can be dissolved in "acqua regia". Similarly Argon Hydride (ArH) will not make argon less noble at all!

  23. Beknighted Then? by tmjva · · Score: 1

    Well, if it is no longer of the Nobility, can it least get a peerage with a Knighthood?

    --
    Tracy Johnson
    Old fashioned text games hosted below:
    http://empire.openmpe.com/
    BT