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Google Testing Smart Appliance, Would Compete With Nest Thermostat
cagraham writes "Google is currently testing a web-connected thermostat, similar to the popular Nest Thermostat, according to The Information. The device would display energy usage details, and allow user's to control it from a web app. This actually marks the second time Google has ventured into home energy, after their PowerMeter web app that was shut down in 2011. Web connected devices could allow Google access to a treasure trove of data on people's daily habits and routines."
It doesn't say Cloud-connected, but then this is Google, a cloudy company. If I can't say no to the Cloud connection, I don't want it. But I do want to connect to it using an open protocol.
Thanks but we all know you'll get bored and drop support for it in 6 months, bricking your (because it's licensed not purchased) thermostat in the process. If you have a problem with a Nest thermostat, you can call them up and talk to a person. If you have a problem with a google anything, you can, well, fuck off, because supportis the one thing Google can't find.
Do you even lift?
These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.
I hope they know enough to discard the information after they're done the analyses, as libraries have long since learned to do when someone returns a book. Otherwise they can look forward to someone showing up with a court order and asking them for "a google search of everyone using more than 10 KW/H between 1 and 5 AM".
I'd also expect to tie the web service to "something I have" as well as something I know (my password). A good thing to uniquely tie it to is the google thermostat itself. It can give the owner it's private key via bluetooth and a "press to authenticate" button*.
--dave
[* this is a solution to a lot of "authenticate a device" problems]
davecb@spamcop.net
Web connected devices could allow Google access to a treasure trove of data on people's daily habits and routines."
Don't care.
I went "all in" on Google a while ago, and I enjoy our current exchange of my personal data for their pretty damned awesome services.
I know what I've given up, and I like what I got in return.
If it's a cool thermostat, I'm in. Google already knows when I'm driving home. Let them turn on my air conditioner.
Here:
http://www.freetronics.com/blogs/news/6305652-build-your-own-arduino-based-home-thermostat#.UrCCUijNB94
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
No normal person needs its because normal people - even nerds - like to keep simple things simple. No milk in fridge? Buy some. House too cold? Turn up heating. Easy.
But, we don't think like the frankly slightly weird Oooh Shiny!! just left university , not yet quite up on how real life works and how real people think , head in the clouds (or cloud?) techo designers that Google employs. They're the sort of people who think that because something CAN be solved by technology , it MUST be solved by technology because in their minds anything digital is the best solution simply by dint of it being digital.
Newsflash - thermostats with timers have been around for 50 years.
I am a fan of the KISS principle.
I like my refrigerator to keep things cold, perhaps make ice. Not act as a TV or entertainment center, nor share data with the world about the expiration date on the cottage cheese stashed in the crisper drawer [1]. Just run the refrigerant around in the tubes to move heat from the inside to the outside until it hits the right temperature, then stop doing so until the temperature warms up enough to restart the cycle.
Same with my A/C or heater. Heat/cool until it hits the right temperature, stop, then resume working when the temperature rises or falls enough.
I don't care to have to worry about additional Wi-Fi connections, security ramifications if the bad guys get on the internal Wi-Fi segment, mass data gathering. I want appliances to do their basic function, and that's that.
The only connected exception would be smoke, water, and burglar alarms, and even then, it should only connect to a dedicated monitoring center and nowhere else.
[1]: One rule -- if it gets on the Internet, it will eventually be public.
Just sayin'.
What's the point of trying to leverage Android or any of Google's products if they're going to try to compete against you in every market on their own turf?
Funny enough, the Honeywell system I was quoted on cost twice as much as a Nest. Sure the thermostat was cheaper, but then you needed the gateway to connect its wireless to the network.
And all ti gave was a web page and stuff in the end.
Though, Nest and Honeywell are currently locked in a nasty patent battle over thermostats..
And I will say from experience - programmables suck - in practically every instance I've seen, people get all excited and program their thermostats when they get them, then after a couple of months, they don't bother. It's too cold? Override. Too hot? Override. In the end, the programmable thermostat reverts to a plain old one because no one can be bothered to reprogram the damn thing..
Now they'll know everything from when you wake up to when you take a bath. If you turn the heater up, they'll probably start sending you more banner ads for cold medicines; and if you do it too often, they'll probably sell that data to your health & life insurance companies to raise your rates. No thanks Google. Stop spying on us.
You need to set it up so that the positive feedback of using the control and display stil;l happens, but the temeperature does not change. It keeps everybody happy that way.
It's too cold? Override. Too hot? Override. In the end, the programmable thermostat reverts to a plain old one because no one can be bothered to reprogram the damn thing..
Damn straight! That's why I did this with my Honeywell! ;-)
http://www.bradgoodman.com/thermostat/
No one can 'spy' on you unless you invite them in. Google's not busting into your home and forcing you at gunpoint to install one of their thermostats. If you don't want to participate, then don't. But don't complain because others want to and because a company finds yet another avenue to generate a revenue stream. That's what their business model is all about.
Quite right.
I spent a few evenings recently learning about the Nest products. But the more I looked, the more I found stories of devices that failed to boot after software updates, or had other flakiness issues.
I live in a part of the world where a thermostat failure would be a problem. The ambient temps were -20F last week. If the thermostat updated while we were out of the house and failed to boot properly, the entire house would freeze in short order. The pipes would burst and I'd be out many tens of thousands of dollars trying to repair the place.
I can't risk that.
The Nest clearly seems to be targeted at silicon valley types who want a gadget and are used to the gadget early-adopter flakiness. If your thermostat flakes out in SVC its no big deal. Very different context than rural North Dakota.
It would be a simple matter to integrate a _backup_ mechanical failsafe that activated the heating circuits if the temperature fell below say, 50F.
The Nest apparently does not have this feature.
I've had programmable thermostats in the past, but programming them (not to mention setting the clocks to track DST changes) has always been enough of a hassle that I've always reverted to "one temperature, all the time". So the Nest is interesting in terms of the problem it tries to solve. The data collection, and correlating furnace activity with outside temperature -- is all interesting. As I was researching the Nest, I realized that they were attempting to create a new product category -- home hvac efficiency enthusiast.
I might be willing to pay $250 to solve a problem I don't actually have. But not if it greatly increases the likelihood of causing a $30,000 problem because it was designed by people who apparently have no experience with controls.
My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.
I'm not buying a Nest, so please don't make that the quality target.
With the Nest, the thermostat sends data to their servers and your browser/phone app communicates to their server. What if they decide to close shop next year? Definitely no web access anymore. What else on the thermostat will stop working without a server to phone home to? Not to mention, if you want to find your foil hat, why do they need to know when I'm home or not?
Why can't we just have UPnP and connect directly to the thermostat? You might say that's too complicated for the average person, but that's the point of service people, to fix things you can't or don't want to fix yourself. Why do I have to give up so much because Uncle Joe still uses AOL?
Look at the whole puzzle, not just the price tag.
Nest understands that their product is expensive up front, but delivers far more than the price tag in energy savings over it's lifetime. People like to bitch about the up-front cost of LED lighting too, but everyone around here at least understands the savings of those products.
Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
Only for people too stupid to program a normal $30 programmable thermostat.
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
Temp/humidity sensors can't be that expensive on their own,
Boom shaka-laka
and you could monitor and control the whole shebang with an Arduino/Pi combo.
OK so assuming a 4 zone setup, you're looking at $40 for the sensor, let's say another $100 for the Ardiuno/Pi setup, and I'm going to guestimate no more than $25 in wire and other supplies... less than $200 total.
Not too shabby if you have the know-how and time to build and code it.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
How much "more"? Less than zero, that's how much "more."
The energy required to maintain a difference in temperature between an object and its surroundings is proportional to the difference in temperature. Therefore, it takes less energy to let the house cool off (minimizing delta-T some of the time) and then warm it up again than it does to keep it warm the whole time (in winter, or vice-versa in summer). This is true regardless of insulation (which only affects the speed at which the cooling off or warming up happens).
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
The very last thing I want is to hook up everything to the internet. It's just another target for someone to hack and also I've found the greater complexity of a device the greater the probability of failure and the harder and more expensive is the repair. On the very rare occasion my 25 year old clothes dryer needs maintenance whichever repair repair tech comes out always says don't get rid of it. The newer models are only good for about seven to ten years and then have to be scrapped because something breaks that is too expensive to fix.
That covers monitoring. Throw in a couple of servos and drivers to control the ventilation and you have a complete system. Drop the Pi/Arduino combo and use a Beaglebone Black and you keep roughly the same expenditure.
I think I have a project lined up for the holidays...
[ By the way, it had been a little while since I last used BatchPCB, but they've since sold their operation to OSH Park, who now does all of the fab work in the US and the turnaround is much quicker. If you're looking for reasonably priced small batch PCBs, check them out. ]
If you want a vision of the future, imagine a youtube comments section scrolling - forever.
Add in a wifi module, and the developer kits for your mobiles, and learn to program your mobile, write a web service, and the arduino/pi with it's limited C subset (and the module quirks). So for $200 + those, you've saved what over the $300 nest?
Unless the nest comes complete with remote sensors for the different zones, you're kinda comparing apples to oranges here.
Also, as someone else pointed out, a $60 BeagleBone Black covers the electronics. So, really, the DIY setup is ~$40 for sensors, ~$60 for control, and $25 for wiring - we'll say $150 total to give a little wiggle room.
I don't know why you think there needs to be a wifi module for a system that's hard-wired into the house; I guess because the Nest has one? Well, that's another advantage to the roll-your-own version - no icky, insecure wireless junk to worry about.
As for the programming, you act like there aren't massive communities, both online and off, filled with people who like to help each other build funky things with CC-PCs and consumer microcontrollers.
There are. LOTS of them, actually.
So, not only would you save ~$100, you'd also have a much more extensive system then what the Nest gives you, and an opportunity to be a part of something interesting.
Oh, and something that's under your complete control, a feature I in particular find appealing.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese