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Panel Urges Major NSA Spying Overhaul
wiredmikey writes "A board set up to review the NSA's vast surveillance programs has called for a wide-ranging overhaul of National Security Agency practices while preserving 'robust' intelligence capabilities. The panel, set up by President Obama, issued 46 recommendations, including reforms at a secret national security court and an end to retention of telephone 'metadata' by the spy agency. The 308-page report (PDF) submitted last week to the White House and released publicly Wednesday says the US government needs to balance the interests of national security and intelligence gathering with privacy and 'protecting democracy, civil liberties, and the rule of law.' Panel members said the recommendations would not necessarily mean a rolling back of intelligence gathering, including on foreign leaders, but that surveillance must be guided by standards and by high-level policymakers."
Thank you Edward Snowden. Without your courage and patriotism we would not even have this level of change in effect.
These are political reforms: it may look like something has changed, but it's business as usual.
They only make recommendations, nobody has to implement them.
Police chiefs do this all the time for police corruption. Look I'm putting a panel together to look into these problems and make recommendations. See! I'm doing something about it! Oh, the Union/Mayor/DA/etc wont agree, sad panda, I tried, vote for me again....
Playing the public like fools.
SSDD
I notice it says the goal is to "protect democracy*", but doesn't seem to mention the Bill of Rights or, specifically, the 4th amendment.
Telling, although not surprising.
* - It's possibly worth noting here that the United States is a republic, not a democracy.
Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
Let them revamp NSA. It won't make a difference. What they will do is spill off some new top secret division that only top brass knows about. This won't change a thing.
Yup.
Viva la Revolución!
The report is slashdotted, at the moment, but I would be willing to bet this is pretty much a white-wash, with no meaningful
changes, by insiders giving up stuff they don't need, or which no one could prove they have anyway, while protecting
everything they really want to keep, and largely ending up with the status quo.
I have no faith in an internal review in general and certainly not from this administration (the self proclaimed most transparent administration in history).
Regardless of what they say, you know this won't change till someone goes to jail. We need Judges impeached for violating their oath of office, we need career NSA brass fired 5 levels deep, we need bulldozers and wrecking balls to converge on Bluffdale Utah. We need every single request for corporations to turn over records to have a warrant issued by a non-secret court and the company empowered to notify each affected individual no later than 6 months after the request. If you can't build a case for arrest in 6 months its probably becaus they haven't done anything wrong.
This report deserves an immediate trip to the waste basket, and a "Warren Committee" empowered in its place.
Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
> privacy and 'protecting democracy, civil liberties, and the rule of law.'
LOL. As if they give a damn about any of those things!
Obama has set the dogs on Snowden (forcing down Evo Morales's plane like a Bond villain to try and catch him), but Obama has also violated the US Constitution itself. How much more serious can you get?
On the campaign trail Obama referred to himself as "a constitutional law professor" so he can't claim ignorance. Yet there is no penalty for him violating it; After years of accumulated abuse it'll eventually weave it's way to the US Supreme Court who will say "So don't do that then." What sort of a deterrent is that?
So what does happens when you give a left-leaning spokesmodel unfettered power and no accountability? SCOTUS J Brandeis on Absolute Power: "The objections to despotism and monopoly are fundamental in human nature. They rest upon the innate and ineradicable selfishness of man. They rest upon the fact that absolute power inevitably leads to abuse."
When the US founding fathers wrote the Constitution they wisely recognised the dangers of a despotic government, having just fought a war with one. The problem the US faces today is that despots ignore the law, and face no penalty for doing so.
Snowden has offered to help Brazil investigate US intelligence. Is that the patriotism you were referring to?
Why, yes, Yes it is.
Any spying on Brazil was for economic reasons, probably at the behest of corporations, not due to any threat to the US.
Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
Fox news? You mean the same people who complain about too much government involvement until it's their kind of government involvement?
Also, we also have to thank Glenn Greenwald and we have to not-thank the US press for failing to be trustworthy enough to be government watchdogs.
http://www.rootstrikers.org/
The fact that a board was even set up to review the NSA's surveillance programs is change that would not have occurred without Snowden making a stand.
The patriotism I'm talking about is something obviously over your head. It involves sacrifice to uphold what is right, no matter who you might piss off in the process.
Lol.. not only that, they are suggesting the watchers watch the watchers to make the report.
Recommendations 37 thru 46 all seem to be designed to prevent another Snowden
Recommendation 37
We recommend that the US Government should move toward a
system in which background investigations relating to the vetting of
personnel for security clearance are performed solely by US Government
employees or by a non-profit, private sector corporation.
Recommendation 38
We recommend that the vetting of personnel for access to classified
information should be ongoing, rather than periodic. A standard of
Personnel Continuous Monitoring should be adopted, incorporating data
from Insider Threat programs and from commercially available sources,
to note such things as changes in credit ratings or any arrests or court
proceedings.
Recommendation 39
We recommend that security clearances should be more highly
differentiated, including the creation of “administrative access”
clearances that allow for support and information technology personnel
to have the access they need without granting them unnecessary access to
substantive policy or intelligence material.
Recommendation 40
We recommend that the US Government should institute a
demonstration project in which personnel with security clearances
would be given an Access Score, based upon the sensitivity of the
information to which they have access and the number and sensitivity of
Special Access Programs and Compartmented Material clearances they
have. Such an Access Score should be periodically updated.
Recommendation 41
We recommend that the “need-to-share” or “need-to-know” models
should be replaced with a Work-Related Access model, which would
ensure that all personnel whose role requires access to specific
information have such access, without making the data more generally
available to cleared personnel who are merely interested.
Recommendation 42
We recommend that the Government networks carrying Secret and
higher classification information should use the best available cyber
security hardware, software, and procedural protections against both
external and internal threats. The National Security Advisor and the
Director of the Office of Management and Budget should annually
report to the President on the implementation of this standard. All
networks carrying classified data, including those in contractor
corporations, should be subject to a Network Continuous Monitoring
Program, similar to the EINSTEIN 3 and TUTELAGE programs, to record
network traffic for real time and subsequent review to detect anomalous
activity, malicious actions, and data breaches.
Recommendation 43
We recommend that the President’s prior directions to improve the
security of classified networks, Executive Order 13587, should be fully
implemented as soon as possible.
Recommendation 44
We recommend that the National Security Council Principals
Committee should annually meet to review the state of security of US
Government networks carrying classified information, programs to
improve such security, and evolving threats to such networks. An
interagency “Red Team” should report annually to the Principals with an
independent, “second opinion” on the state of security of the classified
information networks.
Recommendation 45
We recommend that all US agencies and departments with
classified information should expand their use of software, hardware,
and procedures that limit access to documents and data to those
specifically authorized to have access to them. The US Government
should fund the development of, procure, and widely use on classified
networks improved Information Rights Management software to control
the dissemination of classified data in a way that provides greater
restrictions on access and use, as well as an audit trail of such use.
Recommendation 46
We recommend the use of cost-benefit analysis and riskmanagement
approaches, both prospective and retrospective, to orient
judgments about personnel security and network security measures.
LOL your Forth Amendment is reduced to been cost-effective and your rights might only be statistically protected as "civil liberties" ? So only one frame from your webcam was kept on file?
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
Cold fjord, is that you?
It does f-all to the NSA spying outside the USA, which includes me. So I will continue to do my damndest to make things difficult for them. There is no law that commands a foreigner to submit to foreign gubmint spying.
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
Yup, and as a consequence, Boeing just lost a 5 billion Dollar Brazillian aircraft order to the Swede SAAB.
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
The EFF replies:
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/12/historic-ruling-federal-judge-declares-nsa-mass-phone-surveillance-likely
Yup, and as a consequence, Boeing just lost a 5 billion Dollar Brazillian aircraft order to the Swede SAAB.
Well, if the US government is spying on behalf of US companies, those companies cannot be trusted.
It's violation of the free market forces and clearly illegal. Their bids are obviously invalid.
The rest of the world owns Snowden a big thanks for exposing organized crime at this level.
And people in the US shouldn't worry about the money (from state-sponsored organized crime), but be ashamed of their country for the crimes you are committing against other (smaller) countries that considered the US to be their ally.
Be glad that Snowden exposed this, you have a chance to fix it now... otherwise what's next state-sponsored bribery, theft, sabotage of competitors, why not just invade a foreign country take all their gold? Laws must also apply when dealing with foreign citizens, countries and cooperations...
LOL Brazil can buy whatever it feels it can afford on the international market. The upfront price and ongoing software, hardware maintenance costs are about all Brazil has to worry about. :)
The Brazilian nuclear work and advanced aerospace efforts are well known and very well understood by the USA - no nuclear weapons system but the US "let" Brazil keep working on nuclear subs and aerospace
As for links with China, Russia most countries will buy up any mil systems for sale gov to gov at any good price and with ongoing tech support, upgrades.
So no reason at all to be interested there, Brazil like any nation can buy into what ever it feels like unless bound by some international treaty e.g. nuclear.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
You must read it like a lawyer: "should not be permitted to collect and store all mass, undigested, non-public personal information about individuals to enable future queries and data-mining for foreign intelligence purposes. Any program involving government collection or storage of such data must be narrowly tailored to serve an important government interest."
That means "non-mass" "digested" or "public personal information about individuals" can be stored. Information on social networks is public. So are business records, like what your phone company charged you to call someone or what you're doing with your credit card. Then after a veiled lie that they won't collect it, they then say "Any program involving government collection or storage of such data must be narrowly tailored to serve an important government interest." See what they did there? And they will declare whatever suits them is an important government interest, like economic espionage.
Snowden has offered to help Brazil investigate US intelligence. Is that the patriotism you were referring to?
He offered to help "wherever lawful and appropriate" -- Do you have have a problem with lawful and appropriate actions? Are you advocating that Snowden do something to violate the law?
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
The GP never said anything about ratings or popularity, he made a observation about changing their stance, on the border of hypocricy.
As for popularity, billions of flies eat shit. Does that mean that you start thinking eating shit is good for you too?
This organization has proven that they have no regard at all for the law. One of the fuckers actually told a reporter a few days ago that he thinks the first amendment should be "revised" to make the NSA's job easier.
NSA apparatchiki have committed billions of felonies, and continue to do so as we speak. The only remedy that will make them stop is to disband them altogether.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Aaah - the old "but they're worse!" line of defense. It doesn't matter what protections other countries have - the US screams loud about how awesome and free it is, yet it appears from the evidence it's far from either.
So the stupid outnumber the smart?
Paranoid much? You buy stuff from China, Brazil buys stuff from China, everybody buys stuff from China. They're cheap, what do you expect? Ditto Russia.
In addition the US has proven they're less trustworthy than was thought in the past. That changes the value equation and people are looking for alternatives.
There is no change, those are only recommendations
The panel is a dog and pony show.
It's a circus-like entity to fool us into believing that "CHANGE IS COMING" while actually there will be NO CHANGE.
They understand that the people are VERY UNHAPPY about what NSA has done to us.
They understand that they can't go on doing the same old things the same old ways - but they also know that they have to CONTINUE TO DO THE SAME OLD THING, that is why they put up this fucking dog-and-pony panel publicly stating their so-called "82 recommendations" and hope that by doing so people will be "satisfied" and will not pay so much attention to what they do anymore.
I can bet every last penny that I have that at the end of it the SAME OLD THING WILL STILL BE DON and the only difference is that THEY WILL DO THE SAME OLD THING IN A NEW METHOD.
Or to put it another way --- even after Obama approved all the 82-recommendations (even if it's 820,000 recommendations) the end result will be SAME WINE IN DIFFERENT BOTTLES.
The only effective thing that we need right now is to CHANGE THE SYSTEM.
Anything short of that --- ie., keeping the same old system --- will not work, because it's be manned (and womenned) by the same batch of fuckers, and they will be continuing what they do.
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
"surveillance must be guided by standards and by high-level policymakers"
So, if I'm reading this summary correctly, the only real problem is that our chickenshit congress never tripped over its own feet in a rush to hand the executive branch these exact powers in some most-assuredly extra-patriotic piece of legislation? All the issues with this law will go away if it gets a stamp of approval?
On a second note, why is it that nobody seems to mind (or make laws against) treating the inhabitants of other countries to police-state surveillance, including the heads of sovereign states?
Ugh, those 'recommendations' sound pretty lucrative... err expensive, don't you think?
Out of modpoints but really liked a post? 1BDkF6TtmmeZ3yqXbz9yhdYVqRYnwFoXDj
Then next time try to compete on the grounds of merit, not by spying of your customers and competitors. Spend more money in research and less in espionage. Isn't that what "capitalism" is all about?
Brazil is a sovereign country and they can cooperate with whoever the fuck they want. Wake up and smell the coffee. South America is no longer the United States' backyard.
The text recommends that Congress should end such storage [bulk telephony metadata] and transition to a system in which such metadata is held privately for the government to query when necessary for national security purposes. How will that privately held system be described? How many years does the private providers and private third parties need to keep records around and more importantly which records? Can under the recommendations of the panel a E-mail provider like Lavabit exist that keeps records in encrypted form and has a business model of destroying all records and traces on request of their customer? Under which circumstances must they surrender the customer data over to the government? Can they inform their customer about such an event?
None of these safeguards pro privacy would make legitimate surveillance of suspected wrongdoers where consequences of their actions can harm a lot of innocent civilians or government personnel any harder or impossible (I think the word terrorist is inflated to the point of being meaningless, so I refuse to use it for this purpose).
Before 9/11 we didn't have extreme amounts of such dangerous wrongdoing activity more than after 9/11, yet secret services where extremely much more careful with the privacy of innocent citizens before 9/11 than after. Is the claim that before 9/11 citizens didn't communicate (because electronic communication was less than today), and therefor the 'changing world' implies more communication so more surveillance needed and less privacy allowed? Because if that's the claim of the head of secret services to why he changed the United States in a surveillance state, my counter argument would be that it's idiotic and that being an idiot he shouldn't have such an important role in society. Then again, he offered his resignation last summer. I guess that's the least he should have done.
I count that as a weird modification of Godwin's Law.
Maybe, but can I just make a point about Godwin's Law? If the moment somebody mentions Nazis, the STASI, Pol Pot or any other extremist regime and is immediately "Godwinned", how are we to learn anything from these terrible historical precedents? If the actions of a supposedly democratic government really can be compared to Nazism, etc, then "Godwin's" is just a way to shut down debate about that. Just how badly does somebody need to act before the comparisons are apt? How will we know?
Personally, I think with the recent revelations about the NSA et. al., I think it's high time that Godwin's Law was at least reconsidered, if not outright repealed.
With an honest president, this crap would have been stopped long before a Snowden would have appeared
America is my country and I know this for a fact - my country is famous for having its own presidents assassinated.
Abe Lincoln and JFK, remember ?
Only crooks can become the POTUS.
Honest ed will never last a day in La Casa Blanca.
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
Maybe that's because those other 2 suck so much. As an European that has been in the US on business several times, I find Fox News pretty amusing. I used to watch it for the laughs.
It's amazing (and scary) that so many people in the US take that sludge seriously. If you don't start doing anything about it, you're heading straight back into the Middle Ages.
James Woolsey, a prominent member of the "Project for the New American Century". If anyone should be hanged by the neck, it's them - setting the country on its way to ruin since 2001.
Yes, and only old people and stupid people watch TV news anymore. I know more people with newspaper subscriptions.
US cable news is to news, as professional wrestling is to wrestling. A lot of sound and fury and no substance. Good fun though. More entertainment products than information products.
> Well, apparently the majority of the public very much disagrees with you
No. Only the majority of cable news watching segment (for whom long form journalism is too much work). The total cable news viewership counts aren't anywhere near total public numbers.
I find it extremely interesting that Appendix E of that report does not discuss the NSA's role (or not) in twiddling with Dual EC DRBG. It's the only crypto component that they've been explicitly called out on, and it's not discussed.
Why such a weird analogy? Why not just used Bradley Manning? He's in jail for 35 years..
All governments are spying on all other governments, especially when it comes to what they consider are their vital economic interests. No doubt Brazil has a spy agency spying on US corporations too (shock!). Germany is spying on Britain. Britain is spying on France. France is spying on the US. The US is spying on Brazil. Brazil are spying on Chile. Chile is spying on Argentina. Argentina is spying on China. China is spying on absolutely everyone. Indeed, China has a MASSIVE on-going espionage operation, across corporate, governmental and military interests.
What shocks me more than spying is the fact that so many people on slashdot seem to have only become aware of it when Snowden leaked. I'm guessing you were either asleep during the Cold War or not yet born. Either that or wilfully ignorant, or just plain stupid. I suspect the latter, because frankly the naivete you and others show here is simply breathtaking.
I vote we skip directly to Chapter 7 of the United States Moral Bankruptcy Code.
The backbone tapping mechanisms that make large scale surveillance on Americans must be completely disclosed and dismantled. An egregious capital crime has been committed by NSA for which no clemency or 're-structuring' is possible.
If a new spy agency is built, it must be from pieces of the smoking wreckage of NSA.
If we can execute the Rosenbergs we can try and execute the NSA, which has done more to put us in harm's way than the Soviet's possession (and ultimate non-use) of nuclear weapons.
Building turn-key mechanisms for a Police State is a capital crime. It provides aid and comfort to our enemies. All of them at once.
Full dissolution, full dismantling of taps, dark fiber and facilities.
That is how the Balance is kept.
Our move.
<blink>down the rabbit hole</blink>
What they're talking about is continuing to mass collected data on all Americans but doing it via the private sector which has even LESS transparecny.
The only remedy that will make them stop is to disband them altogether
Shutting down the NSA is no longer sufficient !
They have such control over all the apparatus right now that even if we managed to shut down NSA now they can set up a super-NSA the very next minute - and they can do it totally LEGAL (remember, they have total control over the LAW ) and there is NOTHING we can do about it.
What is required is much more than shut down the NSA - what is truly required is a TOTAL OVERHAUL to the ENTIRE SYSTEM !
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
Panel members said the recommendations would not necessarily mean a rolling back of intelligence gathering, including on foreign leaders, but that surveillance must be guided by standards and by high-level policymakers.
It does mean that it would roll back vital intelligence gathering. Unfortunately, it also means that said rollback would allow another event of the 9/11 scale to slip through, never mind the 50 events stopped by the NSA, due to the bureaucracy of getting the "proper paperwork".
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
"Retention" and "Collection" do not mean the same thing.
Dear Girl-in-training,
Here's the thing people don't get about Snowden: He's not a revolutionary, or a hero. He's a coward.
It is entirely too freaking easy to accuse Mr. Snowden as a coward.
But before you point that accusing finger of yours at Mr. Snowden, why don't you ask yourself "What are you" first ?
At the very least, Mr Snowden has exposed the wrongdoings of the power-that-be.
What have you done that can even begin to compare to what Mr. Snowden has done ?
Are you going to join Cold Fjord in becoming NSA's sock-puppet, Ms. Girl-in-Training ?
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
Yep, no reason to worry about anything at all. It is not like no other country has been invaded or any world wars have been started by countries allying together and sharing military tech or anything.
Yup, and as a consequence, Boeing just lost a 5 billion Dollar Brazillian aircraft order to the Swede SAAB.
That damned NSA, always costing Western Europe, costing the French business! Was it spying? Or just a business decision to go with the LOW BIDDER?
UPDATE 3-Saab wins Brazil jet deal after NSA spying sours Boeing bid
Dassault, for its part, said it regrets Brazil's decision and called Saab's fighter an aircraft that was inferior to its Rafale jet.
"The Gripen is a lighter, single engine aircraft that does not match the Rafale in terms of performance and therefore does not carry the same price tag," it said.
Saab says the Gripen NG has the lowest logistical and operational costs of all fighters currently in service.
France soothes nerves over Dassault jets after Brazil setback
Dassault Aviation shares fall after Brazil snubs rafale jet
The simple fact is that Saab has a very competitive fighter that has won contracts in a number of countries, both in and out of Europe in the last few years, long before the NSA controversy. I think it is quite likely that they won completely on the merits but this is just a "twist of the knife" at an opportune time, but it has little reality. If you want to claim that it was really about the NSA instead of Saab being the low bidder with its fabulous Grippen, then you need to explain how Dassault lost too. Or is it French spying to blame? Why haven't we heard about that?
Brazil is continuing to do business with Russia aren't they? If you think that Brazil isn't crawling with Russian spies that are at least as aggressive as any the US has you are crazy. The Brazilians thought that the Russians warranted being spied up, just like they spied on the US.
Report: Brazil spied on property, personnel from US, Russian, Iranian embassies
The Brazilian government confirmed Monday that its intelligence service targeted U.S., Russian, Iranian and Iraqi diplomats and property during spy activities carried out about a decade ago in the capital Brasilia.
Swedish industry has many fine products. They won contracts before the NSA scandal, they will continue to win them after the scandal. The only difference is now various people will engage in demagoguery proclaiming that every win by Sweden over the US, even if the rest of Europe competed and lost, will be because of NSA. "See! See! NSA!"
Thank goodness this isn't a food blog. Every order for Swedish lingonberries, meatballs, or aquavit would be proclaimed a victory over NSA.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
LOL Brazil can buy whatever it feels it can afford on the international market. The upfront price and ongoing software, hardware maintenance costs are about all Brazil has to worry about.
Arms sales are rarely about "whatever it feels it can afford" and almost always about fostering political relationships.
Money is never a problem with arms sales, as the USA (or France) is happy to loan money (provide financing) for coutnries that want to spend billions on military technology.
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
At least it will have Europe to break the fall.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Are you advocating that Snowden do something to violate the law?
He has already broken the law, many times. What he is offering to do with Brazil would just add to the list.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
What the fuck does this have to do with the subject?
Who the fuck is going to invade the USA? - The US arsenal dwarfs anything else on Earth, even if we all ganged up against you we would still have a lot of trouble mounting a successful invasion.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
That sort of reminds me of something my kids do. They'll misbehave and then complain when I punish them that it isn't "fair." Of course, what they really mean is that they don't like to be punished and would rather be able to misbehave without consequence. My boys are well behaved for the most part but, like any kids, have times when they test the limits of what is allowed. Sadly, too many people don't grow up in this respect, feel slighted when their bad behavior is punished, and complain about how "unfair" it is.
My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
He hasn't released all of it. That's the only thing keeping him alive.
Doubtful. The NSA knows what information he had access to and what he has released. They will have to take the same security measures either way because they have to assume the information will be released if it hasn't already. They also have to assume the information either is or will become public.
"Project for the New American Century".- Yes, anyone who knows anything about anti-science propaganda in the mass media will also recognise that name. They specialise in getting climate denial propaganda printed in the opinion columns of many of the world's leading news outlets. Very effective lobbyists, particularly in the US, their services are surprisingly cheap too.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
Yup, and as a consequence, Boeing just lost a 5 billion Dollar Brazillian aircraft order to the Swede SAAB.
Well, that's what the articles say anyway. But if the reality is that they just chose the cheapest, best jet then this still makes for good headlines and pushes harder against the NSA to reform so either way it's good.
Given how absolutely awful MSNBC and CNN are, it's no surprise that so many people prefer Fox News. Cable news has been in a race to the bottom for quite some time now.
What he is offering to do with Brazil would NOT add to the list because they are lawful actions. Your post was 1/2 factual at best.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
Then next time try to compete on the grounds of merit, not by spying of your customers and competitors. Spend more money in research and less in espionage. Isn't that what "capitalism" is all about?
Capitalism is an economic system based on private ownership of capital. Ownership means control, and capital means anything that can be used for production.
When government spends money, it takes public control of capital. Spending money on research, welfare, spying, bailouts, printing money and stimulus are anti-capitalist when done by governments. At this point in time, even China is more capitalist than the US (thus why they are growing and we are sinking)
Then next time try to compete on the grounds of merit, not by spying of your customers and competitors. Spend more money in research and less in espionage. Isn't that what "capitalism" is all about?
That's the popular myth. But no, that's not what capitalism is all about. Capitalism is about making a profit. There are lots of ways to do that, and building a better product is only one of them.
"What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
I wonder how things turn out in the long run when you knowingly and willingly apply bad data, or incorrect theories, to govern decision making? Can it be good?
#unintentionalirony
Facts aren't advocacy. - If you punish ordinary opposing views in debate you aren't committed to free speech.
The persecution complex that prompted you to put that line in your .sig must be debilitating.
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
Who the fuck is going to invade the USA? - The US arsenal dwarfs anything else on Earth, even if we all ganged up against you we would still have a lot of trouble mounting a successful invasion.
This is what always cracks me up when i hear about threats to the United States. Nobody threatens the Unites States militarily. But we still hear about Iran and China and Russia as threats. And we spend $Texas defending against these supposed threats. Got to keep the populace a little afraid I guess.
"What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
No one invaded the US in WWI. Granted our entrance into WWII had an attack on US territory but there was no invasion until after we entered the war. Of course you can argue that the US had no interest in entrring those wars but we did and have largely structured our defende strategies around no allowing other countries wars unfold to the point another world war would happen ever since.
Concentrating on someone invading the US is a complete mistake. If someone invaded Mexico or even Canada, you better bet the US would enter the war. Same goes for a number of countries in south america as well as around the world. But if we knew some country was buying arms to invade colimbia, strengthening their defenses for that particular threat could very well avoid a war or even stop it before it got large enough to become another WWI or vietnam or Korea. So lets look at the entire picture rather that only the portions that can easily be discredited. Or should we forget the lessons history has taught us and become another Neville Chamberlain. Even if you think we should, the cold war has shown that the defense strategies of the US and quite a bit of the rest of the would do not think we should.
I'm always fascinated when literally true factual statements* are marked as "trolls."
On Slashdot we are always told how much everyone values science, data, and evidence, and it appears to be true ..... as long as only certain subjects are discussed from only certain viewpoints, or unless it is politically inconvenient.
I wonder how things turn out in the long run when you knowingly and willingly apply bad data, or incorrect theories, to govern decision making? Can it be good?
Everyone has their own facts. There are so many facts, it's difficult to consider them all. So we often go with a subset that best represents the situation. But that is a subjective judgement. In describing US foreign policy, I would probably choose different facts than you would. We could each paint a different picture and still both be factual. Right and Wrong are slippery things.
As for why you are modded Troll, I think you know. You are an establishmentarian on a forum that leans anti-establishment. You often defend the actions and propriety of the US government at a time and place that that government is not very popular. I say rock on. It's good to have differing viewpoints. But I'll still probably throw a few snarky comments your way. ;-)
"What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
The same thing that happens when you give a right-leaning spokesmodel unfettered power and no accountability. The Bush administration started the escalation of spying powers with the PATRIOT Act and kept escalating and expanding those powers for seven years. Get over your partisan bias and recognize that this problem exists regardless of which side of the aisle our numbnuts in power came from.
Am I reading that right? The "rule of law" is getting "balanced" by something else? I didn't think LAW was negotiable? Maybe that's the problem here? Someone's trying to "strike a balance" between legal and national security?
Government policy shouldn't be trying to draw a line between security and legality. Legality is THE LINE that is not crossed over, ever. If you can't do it legally, that means you shouldn't BE doing it. The correct response is not to consider bending the laws.
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
You mistake "state" for "government" (that's a very usual fallacy, though).
I did not even mention the word "state"
You suggest that spying would be better if performed by privates (?!?)
No. I don't even disagree with the parent, spying is wrong either by government or private entities. However Capitalism is not about government spending money in research instead of spying as the GP implies. Capitalism is about the government not spending money at all. That was the point of my post.
China is more capitalist than the US? The Chinese State has total or partial ownership of every business in China. You just completely contradict your own initial point!
I would not say china is full fledge capitalist. And I agree the government still owns a lot of enterprises. However, in the past 20 years, China has been privitizing a lot of them, and have deregulated the economy to the point that it is easier to start a business in China than in the US. As a result, go to walmart, pick up any random item and see where it is made. The US turned its back on capitalism a long time ago, to the point that _even_ China is more capitalist than the US.
America has a history of using political power for economic gains. Just look at the treaties we propose that do nothing but help a few media companies...
It's QUITE obvious the NSA was spying on people/countries at the behest of corporations to further their economic policies. Duh.
And yes, I think that should be wrong and I'm GLAD Boeing just lost a 5bil aircraft order. Brazil should be free to vote with it's money, and when Boeing starts complaining to congress, that'll get HEARD far more than some Brazillian diplomat whining. It's a good move on Brazil's part.
I wish the American people would vote with their dollars too. Shit would get done around here.
The worst thing that would happen is that he suddenly approaches room temperature.
Other than that, Mrs Lincoln, how did you like the play?
Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
"It's amazing (and scary) that so many people in the US take that sludge seriously. If you don't start doing anything about it, you're heading straight back into the Middle Ages. "
Is it scary, really?
Now, don't misunderstand me. I haven't been defending Fox News here, I was just saying they're raking in the ratings. But if you look at their actual credibility scores (Pew research), that has also followed its ratings pretty closely.
Meanwhile, MSNBC (which used to be more popular) has the lowest credibility score of all. Personally, I consider the news source with least credibility to be "scarier", in the sense you mean.
The fact that a simple statement of truth, including a citation, get marked as "flamebait" speaks volumes about certain modders at Slashdot.
Just an observation.
"Only the majority of cable news watching segment..."
Cable AND satellite. Which together are by far the largest segment of the viewing public.
"The total cable news viewership counts aren't anywhere near total public numbers."
True. But they are still the majority of people who watch the news.
The challenge that the US faces today is that citizens have been conditioned to a nanny state and to trust in the Governments ability to do what is best for them and never to abuse the powers they have been allotted. IN short, they fail to recognize that what the founding fathers experienced could and would ever happen to them, hence the things are different now analogies when giving up liberties that protect us from them to protect us from a faceless enemy.
The simple fact is that Saab has a very competitive fighter that has won contracts in a number of countries, both in and out of Europe in the last few years, long before the NSA controversy.
First: This aircraft has been a "Contender" for many sales, but has actually WON very few of them, and mostly to countries on less than stellar terms with the US who would not have access to US aircraft or fear loss of spare parts and support at the whim of the US.
Second: The NSA controversy is much older than your attention span.
The so is the Saab aircraft. Its a 1988 design, that, while not incapable, is no match for a run of the mill (equally ageing) F16.
Still it is bound to be competitive with anything any aggressor is likely to launch against Brazil. Because like Canada, nobody has any major beef with Brazil. The NSA spying was in fact the thing that broke this deal. How could Brazil trust an aircraft from a country that listens in to the Prime Minister's phone calls? American jets might just refuse to start their engines on the very day Brazil needed them.
Get use to this result. Its going to be repeated. And it has EVERYTHING to do with the NSA's destruction of what little trust the world still had for the US.
Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
Everyone's doing it, so it's OK? No. No no no.
People have been aware of it for a long time. We all knew. Snowden's actions forced others to act, and that is a good thing.
Maybe you should insult people less and listen more.... If we're naive in wanting our government to behave, what are you for seeming to make excuses for their behavior?
What ... does this have to do with the subject?
Lets review the subject. (How quickly you forget.)
Then next time try to compete on the grounds of merit
If you bothered to read my link, you would see that like Boeing, Dassault Aviation competed on the merits, and lost. Saab competed on the merits and won. Not that tough. I'm certain someone of your intelligence could have arrived at that if you would have tried.
What the fuck ... ?
Between your ears.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
partisan bias? Only that I would have expected a right-leaning spokesmodel to do it. I would have hoped a left-leaning spokesmodel who preached 'Hope and Change' wouldn't. Ryoma Sakamoto said "A statesman must be pure of heart." Obama isn't.
Your logic makes my brain hurt.
Indeed.
FOX LIES!
Can you cite an example where they lied?
FOX LIES!
Have you ever watched the network?
FOX LIES!
Can you explain why they have more viewers than everyone else?
BECAUSE THEY USE SLICK CORPORATE PROPOGANDA! FOX LIES!
Wouldn't their competitors have access to the same tactics? Why doesn't it work for them?
FOX LIES!
How does that answer my question?
ONLY STUPID PEOPLE WATCH FOX!
So all the Fox viewers are idiots, but you are smarter than them because you watch MSNBC?
YOU'RE A RACIST! FOX LIES
I have actually had this same conversation with more than one brainwashed narrative spouting person...
Murphy was an optimist
Also, we also have to thank Glenn Greenwald and we have to not-thank the US press for failing to be trustworthy enough to be government watchdogs.
The KGB seldom scored as well as what Greenwald has been delivering on the intelligence services of the West, which they assess as devastating blows. The new "patriotism" you honor is barely distinguishable from the old treason.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell