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Govt. Watchdog Group Finds Apple Misled Aussies On Consumer Rights
beaverdownunder writes "Apple has agreed to an agreement to ensure staff inform customers of rights under Australian consumer law. Despite the 2011 law requiring retailers to provide a refund option for faulty goods, and free repairs to items reasonably expected to still function properly (this part of the law is intentionally ambiguous), Apple steadfastly stuck to its AppleCare program, denying warranty repairs to units more than one year old (without the purchase of an extension) and only offering replacement or credit for DOA items. Apple has promised to compensate all Australian customers who were charged for repairs during the last two years, and make the terms of the law clear on the Australian Apple website. How this will affect company warranty policy is unclear — under the law, consumers could be entitled to repairs for the life of the product (barring damage, of course)."
It's cheaper for Apple to change that law than to provide repairs.
It's more profitable for the lawmakers to change that law than to force Apple to provide repairs.
Therefore, the law will be changed.
Capitalist Oligarchy 101.
I have several Apple products and in general I like them. Still it is sad for such premium products that the maker has to be strongarmed into agreeing to local law. The same happened in Europe where (and I think it is reasonable) products such as laptops should have a 2 year guarantee. Perhaps not on Applecare level (which is really good, I had to use it once and was happy with the service quality - a technician came to my home to replace my 27" imac screen panel), but at least a normal guarantee should be expected.
Of course Applecare becomes less attractive if it is just a one year extension and a higher service level. But frankly the products while well made are expensive enough to have the above mandatory local guarantee applied without hassle.
If the price of the long warranty is equal to the cost of the warranty to Apple, they'll just bake it into the price. If the warranty is a high margin item whose standard retail price far exceeds the actual cost to Apple, Apple can't just raise the price by the standard retail price of the warranty--raising the price shifts the demand curve and reduces the total number of Apple products sold (something that does not happen if the warranty is sold at the same retail price but as an optional item). Apple would instead be forced to raise the price by a smaller amount that is closer to the actual cost of the warranty, so as not to reduce sales too much.
Imagine that they were selling iPads but had a deal where you paid an extra million dollars to get them gift-wrapped. If the government forced them to gift-wrap every iPad, they could not raise the price by a million dollars.
There's no way a business can afford a longer warranty period without collecting for it somehow.
Well, they could build their products to last at least 2 years, that should drastically reduce the number of repairs/replacements needed... but I know, that's just a fantasy.
There's no way a business can afford a longer warranty period...
Certainly not when they deliberatly build in obsolescence so your forced to throw away/consume more - increase profits vs deplete more natural resources. Longer warrenty periods by law would go a long way to reign in companies balancing act - how short can they push a products life without overtly harming the brand. Force them to increase product quality (or at least remove the cheap gimmicks they use to sabotage their own products after a short period).
In the EU warranty is 2 years by law, and Apple sticked to it if you "complained" but did the same thing as in Australia: thy misslead customers to believe that warranty was only one year.
All industry, all laptop manufactors give minimum 2 years warranty or a significantly higher guaranty.
If companies like Leveno, HP, IBM, Dell etc. can give two or more years without noticeable pricing problems then Apple surely can as well.
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
There's no way a business can afford a longer warranty period...
Certainly not when they deliberatly build in obsolescence so your forced to throw away/consume more - increase profits vs deplete more natural resources.
That's BS. My iPhone battery has lasted 6 years so far. The battery charge lasts 3 days to a week, depending on my call volume.
Are you maybe loading crApps on it that consume a lot of battery for no reason? Even with a lot of cycles, the iFixit article is pretty crappy in its estimates of charge cycles, in my experience (760+ charges so far). Apples not going to guarantee this level of performance, but my experience is that others get similar numbers.
In the EU warranty is 2 years by law, and Apple sticked to it if you "complained" but did the same thing as in Australia: thy misslead customers to believe that warranty was only one year.
You are saying that, but it's not true. Both in the EU (most of the EU, some countries are different), and Australia, there is nothing in any law that says two years. It says "reasonable time".
Importantly, by using the word "warranty" you are just confusing things. There are two totally separate things: One is warranty. The manufacturer, or anyone else, gives you entirely voluntary some kind of warranty (obviously the warranty influences what I buy, but there is no law whatsoever that forces them). The other is "statutory rights". When you buy something, the seller (not the manufacturer) is responsible that the item is of reasonable quality, does what it is supposed to do, and works for a reasonable time. That's totally separate. So no, Apple as the maker of a computer or phone or tablet doesn't have to give you any warranty whatsoever. On the other hand, if you buy directly from Apple, or from an Apple store, the store has legal responsibilities - whether the product you buy is made by Apple or not.
What's interesting is that these laws apply to _any_ store, and I've never seen any store in the UK actually telling me about consumer rights, and only Apple is ever told off for this. Dell for example doesn't tell you _anything_ about your consumer rights. And unlike Apple, Dell is _always_ the seller, so they are _always_ responsible for statutory rights.
"Govt. Watchdog Group Finds Apple Misled Aussies On Consumer Rights"
Which Government? China? France? Kenya? Brazil? Rome? Would be more helpful with which country this involves in the title
I don't think Chinese, French, Brazillian etc govts care if apple lie to aussies. Without it mentioned you can assume its the Aussie govt.
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Or offer higher quality, better tested products... Offering a long warranty isn't going to cost anywhere near as much if the failure rate is extremely low.
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The end effect I can see of countries forcing long warranties on products [......]
They're not forcing long warranties on products. The law merely requires that a good should be of merchantable quality and fit for purpose - anything else is essentially fraud anyway.
Another possibility is that Apple would become more stingy with repair/replacement, which would be a shame as it's really nice to go in and have them say "well, this just isn;t working, have a new one".
They're not being generous, it's what Australian law requires them to do.
"Oh, consumer protection laws are bad for consumers!".
No, Chicken Little, it isn't.
Oh, and requiring things work well means you buy fewer of them. Each one bought has a profit margin built in for the stuff making it up, so you're paying more for 2 iPads lasting half as long than you do for 1 iPad.
The EU directive (that has been ratified into local law by most countries) varies according to the type of item, but it does indeed state two years for electronic devices such as phones (white goods get more), after which the onus is on the consumer to prove a manufacturing fault and usually the most you can expect is a repair or replacement. If the item in question is no longer made then you might get an equivalent value *at time of sale adjusted for inflation / RPI* item.
The reason Apple is getting told off all the time is because they try to dodge the law all the time. Dell won't publicise your statutory rights but they don't go out of their way to mislead you into thinking you don't have any.
It *is* a warranty, a manufacturer's warranty, codified under statutory rights law as distinct from an after purchase warranty that is provided by the seller. Thus Apple (the manufacturer) have a manufacturer's warranty for an iPhone and Apple (the seller) can also offer you a (extended) warranty. *Those* are two separate things.
When claiming under manufacturer's warranty your first recourse is the place you bought it from and *they* have to go through the hassle of fighting with the manufacturer (though PC World tried to dodge that when I had a faulty Transformer). However, the seller has to fulfill the conditions to the buyer then and there, making it like a charge back on a card.
"Wait. Something's happening. It's opening up! My God, it's full of apricots!"
This has nothing to do with warranties.
This is about requiring manufacturers to take responsibility for selling faulty products.
If someone sells me thousands of dollars worth of electronics and it fails after 12 months (or even a few years) of normal use, they've sold me a faulty product and should either repair or replace it. Even you free market extremists should be able to get your heads around that.
I've pulled the "Consumer Protection Laws" card a couple of times already in the last few years, each time to have home appliances either repaired or replaced after they failed outside the warranty period. Two years and four years, respectively, are not acceptable lifetimes for a microwave and a washing machine.
Sorry but have to call bullshit on that.
Apple has a replacement program for the batteries, and for a long time customers you actually got a device swap, and the old device gets rebuild as a service part. Given the tools and equipment required to pull the device apart thats a not bad approach to start out with. It took them years, but they went form a globally centralised repair strategy, to a regional repair strategy, and they finally managed to get the disassembly/reassembly rigs down to a price point that they could afford to put them in to Apple retail stores, and have stuff fixed in the back room.
There are many examples of the batteries lasting much longer than iFixit's estimate.
iFixit has a vested interest in what they say : their business is as an independent repair service. Anything that damages their business by taking repair opportunities away from them - they've a track record in trying to grab media attention for. Apple doesn't owe them a livelihood.
Now I'll wear the Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance philosophical issue - if phones were thicker, heavier, had standard sized replaceable batteries, more easily disassembleable (is that a word ?) and used standardised commoditised parts, they'd be easier to self repair and use generic repair services to maintain. Absolutely true. But no manufacturer in their right mind is going to commoditise their own product and reduce their product's competitive advantage. Its been tried and in general, the consumer markets reject modularised maintainable products, and the companies that make them go broke. Its a nasty symbiosis between the design people and the consumers - thinner, faster, smaller, bigger, more cromulent always wins.
Also keep in mind that some environmental legislation like RoHS actually makes certain kinds of products longevity LOWER - some of those nasty chemicals used in insulators and capacitors just plain last longer than their environmentally friendly replacements.
Apple is arguably the least bad of any of the mainstream phone and tablet manufactures - they actually stock spare parts, they fix the devices, and they provide software updates for 3-4 years - roughly 2x the time window of almost any other vendor you pick. Oh, and once they stop updating your device's OS, they still make the last compatible version of an App available via the App store infrastructure. If you look at device churn rate data from carriers, some of the cheaper Android phones are getting junked & replaced at under a year (and then there's the "tablet in the drawer" , "Z10 landfill" and "Surface RT landfill" problems where literally billions of dollars worth of product gets made, maybe never consumed, or maybe just rots in a drawer).
However, I do think they should bite the bullet and stop charging for AppleCare Protection Plans, and just bundle 3 years warranty into everything. 3 years warranty is really a gimme when the vendor has decent quality control (which is usually true for Apple hardware).
Consumers knowing he difference between "need" and "want" , and managing the consequences of the "want" responsibly is far more important than flogging Apple over things that it does less bad than almost the entire industry.
They already build their products to last at least 2 years, otherwise they wouldn't have been offering extended warranties that cover out to 2 years.
So there shouldn't be a problem then. All the cry and no real problem. Their extended warranty is just a money grab. If you wan't to sell on markets that require two year warranty just do it, unless your product is crap. That's why the law is there, to protect consumers from the worst crap. The same consumers wanted those laws. I live in such country, and I tell you I really, really, really like my consumer protection laws. They protect ME. It might cost more, but i'm willing to pay. Also it cost's way less than those extended warranty plans. ( Yes, they offer them here also, usually as a better return process, or simply as an expansion to the warranty time )
My wife has had the top edge power button on her iPhone4 die 3 times now, and each time Apple wanted £119 to replace the unit - she now doesn't have an iPhone and won't ever have an iPhone again.
Dell isn't always the seller as there are commercial resellers and outlets that stock Dell equipment - PC World for instance.
Most manufacturers of expensive, premium products offer a longer than mandatory warranty. 8 years on a car, 5 years on my Panasonic TV, 3 years on my NEC laptop. One year says "we don't think it will even last the legal minimum 2 years" to me.
Of course Apple products are not cheap crap, they just want to gouge you for an extended warranty.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
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Incorrect. For specific goods, such as phones, 2 years IS specified.
Where from? I want to know more about your consumer protection laws
This is about requiring manufacturers to take responsibility for selling faulty products.
See, you are mixing it up, like so many do. Manufacturers don't sell you goods. Retailers sell goods. Apple manufactures goods and gives warranties. There are no laws that say anything about the warranties that a manufacturer should give. Various retailers sell goods made by Apple and many others. Sometimes Apple is itself a retailer, selling products made by Apple and others. The _retailer_ is responsible for selling faulty products.
When claiming under manufacturer's warranty your first recourse is the place you bought it from and *they* have to go through the hassle of fighting with the manufacturer (though PC World tried to dodge that when I had a faulty Transformer). However, the seller has to fulfill the conditions to the buyer then and there, making it like a charge back on a card.
If you buy an Apple product in the UK, you have about the same rights both under manufacturer's warranty and statutory rights for six months. The next six months the manufacturer's warranty is better for you, and from then on you only have statutory rights.
As long as you are protected by both, you have the choice to claim either against the seller or the manufacturer, whatever suits you better. Neither of them has the right to pass you on to the other.
And no, there is no manufacturer's warranty codified anywhere. For most products that you buy, you have no idea who the manufacturer is, and if you did know, you would have no way of forcing them to do anything. That's why the sole legal responsibility is with the seller, because you know the seller, you went there once to buy the goods so they are usually near enough to go there again with complaints. The seller may have a contract with the manufacturer so they are not stuck with the cost, but that's of no interest to the customer.
When you mention Dell, the Italians were quite upset that Apple doesn't make your statutory rights clear enough when selling extended warranties. And they _do_ tell you about them, but apparently it's not clear enough. Dell does no such thing. They sell you two years extended warranty without mentioning statutory rights at all, which is exactly what the Italians complained about with Apple.
So you're telling me the manufacturer give the items to the sellers for free? Because otherwise they would be selling crappy stuff, to the retailer...
In the EU the law says: "two years", since minimum a decade, and before that in germany the law was liek that since minimum 30 years.
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
The manufacturer, or anyone else, gives you entirely voluntary some kind of warranty (obviously the warranty influences what I buy, but there is no law whatsoever that forces them).
Well then I missunderstood the english terms warranty and guaranty.
In germany a "guaranty" is voluntary, and must excede the minimum the law demands, obvisouly.
The other german term is "gewÃhrleistung", which seems to be "guarantee" in english ... this is the time you have to replace/repair your product by law (which is two years).
What's interesting is that these laws apply to _any_ store, and I've never seen any store in the UK actually telling me about consumer rights
I guess the point is that Apple was "missleading" by "voluntarily" giving a very short (shorter than law demands) warranty. While on the other hand a semi educated person should now: law demands more.
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
Actually, that's already what they do.
If you count the cost of AppleCare into the price of the device, then add taxes, you find that the EU and Australian prices aren't too far out of line anymore with the US prices. And make sure you count all taxes - including various duties (which can easily approach 50%) of import.
Of course, the AU and EU governments will still complain and whine that they're "gouged" but it appears that Apple is one of the least gouging companies around - at least when you compare like to like (add sales taxes to price, add extended warranty to price, etc).
And yes, it's things like this that people forget all about, and yes, Apple is at fault for selling AppleCare when you don't need it.
But it's not gouging when the law says an extended warranty is mandatory and companies build it into the baseline cost.
raising the price shifts the demand curve and reduces the total number of Apple products sold
Raising the price has no effect on the demand curve. It just changes were the supply and demand curves cross. Luckily for Apple, every Apple buyer I know is very price insensitive. Demand is inelastic for Apple products.
I work for ATT and you either got an iphone made by the hand of god himself, or you are lying. Or you make 2 1 minute calls a day. One of our biggest complaints when I get customers escalated to me is that the phone is only a year old and the batter does not keep a charge. I seriously doubt a six year old iphone is that marvelous. Of course a six year old iphone did not have all the newer technology that sucks battery, so you might have a shred of truth, but Apple is the king of planned obsolescence. So either you are rocking a regular 2g or a 3g. As for the other poster he is correct. I get a call escalated today. Iphone 5 user has a broken power button. Customer goes to Apple and they tell her it is $135 us to replace it, and they cannot guarantee it will work, that it could also be the screen that is effected, that she is better off getting a new phone. She calls one of our reps furious. I found a local repair shop for her via the internet, and they fixed it for 20 bucks, with a 3 month warranty. If you have a broken screen, you can get it repaired at Radio Shack for 70 bucks. They build in obsolescence and then instruct their geniuses to overcharge for repairs so they can make the case to just buy a new phone.
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The employees followed Apple policies. Its on all their Apple Care documentation.
Considering that a major selling point for the iPad Air is that it's slightly thinner, I wouldn't put it past them to add gift-wrapping as a standard feature on their products.
NZ has similar laws: http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1993/0091/latest/DLM311053.html
Australian law requires Apple to fix the issue. That can be done (A) by just giving you a brand new device while you are in the store, or (B) by having you send it out for repair and wait a week...
As a consumer I'd rather have (A) than (B). Making Apple have to support longer warranties out of the gate means that they would be more likely to do (B) [......]
Under Australian law, the consumer gets the choice - not Apple. You have the right to choose replacement, refund, or repair. Most retailers try and convince you that a faulty item must be repaired and they can't replace or refund - mentioning your state or territory's fair trading department usually changes their mind instantly.
Very interesting, I stand corrected. I wasn't aware the consumer laws there were that generous.
Do you really have the ability to ask for a refund for a full two years?
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Do you really have the ability to ask for a refund for a full two years?
You can ask for a refund for as long as seems reasonable. However, ultimately it comes down to what the adjudicator in your state or territory's fair trading tribunal thinks is reasonable - or, maybe, what you can convince the retailer they would find reasonable.
The amount of time that's reasonable would probably depend on the nature and price of the item. If it was something that should reasonably be expected to last, say, 5 years, you could possibly make a case for it to be replaced or refunded for up to that length of time. However, it's likely the tribunal would be less sympathetic to that as time goes on - although it may depend on how much you would be inconvenienced by repair.
With cheaper goods, it may come down to how much it will cost the retailer to defend themselves in the tribunal versus the cost of replacement or refund - particularly if you convince them you know your rights and will put up a good fight.
Most manufacturers of expensive, premium products offer a longer than mandatory warranty. 8 years on a car, 5 years on my Panasonic TV, 3 years on my NEC laptop. One year says "we don't think it will even last the legal minimum 2 years" to me.
Actually I have found the complete opposite to be true. Generally speaking, the more "premium" the product, the shorter the warranty.
Exhibit A: Swiss watches.
Fundamentally, however, this has nothing to do with "warranty" - at least not in a country with proper consumer protection laws - this is about having a formal means to pursue companies that sell faulty goods without having to go through the cost and hassle of an individual legal action.