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Former Head of NSA Calls For Obama To Reject NSA Commission Recommendations

Posted by Unknown on from the not-what-you're-thinking dept.

An anonymous reader writes that USA Today reports "Retired general Michael Hayden ... called on President Obama Monday to ... reject many of the recommendations of the commission he appointed to rein in NSA surveillance ... 'President Obama now has the burden of simply doing the right thing,' ... 'And I think some of the right things with regard to the commission's recommendations are not the popular things. They may not poll real well right now. They'll poll damn well after the next attack ...' ... The commission ... said the recommendations were designed to increase transparency, accountability and oversight at the NSA. Hayden ... oversaw the launch of some of the controversial programs ... He defended them as effective and properly overseen by congressional intelligence committees and a special court. 'Right now, since there have been no abuses and almost all the court decisions on this program have held that it's constitutional, I really don't know what problem we're trying to solve by changing how we do this,' he said."

40 of 316 comments (clear)

  1. Lame duck President by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    He has no incentive to change anything. How it 'polls' is irrelevant. Someone with 2016 aspirations will need to make this their issue.

    1. Re:Lame duck President by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This clown was "lame" the day he stepped into office. His inability to actually take a stand and act on it, without wheeling and dealing for 2 years to get a "consensus" that compromises every facet of the original stand, has made him as effective as most vice presidents.

      He's going to gather "expert testimony", "listen to the people", and by the time he gets around to "gathering consensus", he'll have changed nothing. Just like Afghanistan, just like Iraq, and just like that gods-awful mess of an excuse for enshrining bureaucrats with permanent legacies called Obamacare.

    2. Re:Lame duck President by Drathos · · Score: 3, Informative

      "Lame Duck" in politics means they're on their way out. Either they've already lost an election or, in this case, in his final term and can't run again. It has nothing to do with what he's done or what his goals are/were. It basically means he can do as he pleases and doesn't need to worry about what the voters think anymore.

      --
      End of line..
    3. Re:Lame duck President by SuricouRaven · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Politics is compliacted.

      If Obama announced his intention to limit the powers of the NSA and impose more oversight from congress and the courts, then you can be confident that within a week there will be a republican-sponsored bill to remove what oversight they already have. It's a game of two sides: What one does, the other automatically opposes.

    4. Re:Lame duck President by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 5, Interesting

      It took a very brave man, Edward R. Murrow ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_R_Murrow ), to have the courage to stand up Senator Joseph McCarthy's communist witch hunt. Obama just isn't the man to do that. But you really can't blame him for that. Not everyone can be a superhero, and that is what the country needs to restore the NSA to what it once was. Old Cold War NSA retirees probably cry themselves to sleep every night when they think about what the NSA has now become. The NSA used to be very discrete, effective and restrained. Now they have gone entirely overboard and out of control. They need a military style stand-down to take an assessment of themselves. Discretion is the better part of valor. I'd like to see an NSA that we could be proud of again . . . not afraid of.

      Take a look at the Navy SEALS . . . the best fighting force in the world . . . but the US Army command does not send them off everywhere at a whim. And most of their operations we probably never hear about . . . because they are used very discretely and restrained. The NSA has expanded their surveillance to a point that the world is bound to discover what they are doing . . . because they just can't keep such massive operations secret any more.

      If the Navy SEALS came under the command of the NSA, the NSA would deploy the SEALS everywhere to shoot up everyone. And instruct them to search through the dead bodies, to see if any of the dead were, in fact, terrorists.

      --
      Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
    5. Re:Lame duck President by morari · · Score: 5, Insightful

      All very true, unfortunately. Obama has been little more than a continuation of Dubya's reign. It's too bad the American people are so divided, so beholden to their preferred "team", or else they might notice how thoroughly they're being fucked regardless of which party is in power.

      And here I was, sincerely hoping for a Socialist, non-Christian president. If only Fox news were correct now and then. :(

      --
      "He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing." --Paul Atreides, Dune
    6. Re:Lame duck President by nobodyman · · Score: 4, Funny

      What one does, the other automatically opposes.

      Which is why it's so easy to control today's GOP with reverse psychology.

      Obama:Boy, it sure would be bad if you shut down the government.
      GOP:HA! Lets shut down the government!
      (time passes)...
      GOP:Shit, our poll numbers!
      Obama: Jesus this is too easy.

    7. Re:Lame duck President by Chickan · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The problem is the FISA courts are not oversight. Since they have been around they have rejected only ~5 requests, compared to the thousands they have approved. That is a rubber stamp, not oversight.

    8. Re:Lame duck President by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I guess that's where we differ in politics between a border. And of course that's a brilliant idea, let's run with yours for a moment. So, Obama is going to do as he pleases, mess up the mid-term, and the following presidential election...just to do what he wants. Right-o...then again, I've seen that in Canada for the Conservative Party...killed them outright...look at the Kim Cambell fiasco.

      I think that says more about the difference between the Canadian multi-party system and the US-bipartisan system (and the voters' roles) than it does about how they might kill the Democratic party. In Canada, people have no issues with completely dismantling a party and starting a new one that reflects the views of the people. I don't see that happening in the US any time soon.

      There's a reason there's no concept of "lame duck" in Canada, and Mulroney/Campbell demonstrated it nicely when they attempted to play American politics.

    9. Re:Lame duck President by Deep+Esophagus · · Score: 5, Interesting

      It's too bad the American people are so divided, so beholden to their preferred "team", or else they might notice how thoroughly they're being fucked regardless of which party is in power.

      My kingdom for mod points! Amen, preach on! As a centrist, I manage to piss off my friends on the right and left just about every day when I point out the fallacies in their partisan logic. My Facebook profile lists my political preference as "They are all lying weasels, every last one of them".

      Our country's fondness for sports has made team affiliation creep into everything. Mac or Windows? Republican or Democrat? Plastic or paper? Die, heretic! We just aren't happy, apparently, if there isn't a "them" for "us" to oppose. And when there is a "them", we'll do and say anything, however outrageous, to bring "them" to utter destruction.

    10. Re:Lame duck President by AJH16 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's a little more insidious when you realize that is intentional and that both media and politicians fight to keep it that way. They intentionally use the most divisive issues possible and make their careers by making people as extreme as possible. It's horrible for the country, but great for accumulating power and wealth.

      --
      AJ Henderson
    11. Re:Lame duck President by poetmatt · · Score: 4, Informative

      Hahaha. Trust me, if you think Chicago is bad you should see New York and LA.

      Hollywood and New York are the original crony capitalism groups, by definition. Look at the NY judge that made up his own rules just to rule in the NSA's favor yesterday! Those rules and facts that he used don't even exist! If that's not a clear "I am sucking at the government teat" then I don't know what is.

      Chicago's corruption is the police force, but not the legal system itself. New York's is 100% regulatory capture.

      http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20131230/11062925713/judge-who-ruled-favor-nsa-relied-911-report-that-doesnt-even-mention-what-he-claims-it-does.shtml

    12. Re:Lame duck President by WOOFYGOOFY · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You have to consider the idea that the NSA is blackmailing politicians or otherwise threatening them. This is after all one of the major worries of ubiquitous surveillance. How do we know we're not already there? This kind of thing was WAAAY out there for me before. Now I think it needs to be kept in the "not impossible" drawer and should evidence arise, not dismiss that evidence. Not saying I believe it, just saying it's no longer "impossible".

  2. This just in, spy wants spy rules to stay by wbr1 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    They'll poll damn well after the next attack

    The next attack will happen with or without illegal, unconstitutional domestic spying. I don't want you magic tiger protection rocks sir.

    --
    Silence is a state of mime.
    1. Re:This just in, spy wants spy rules to stay by WolfgangPG · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I have to agree. The NSA may or may not have stopped any attacks with this snooping. They can of course point to attacks they claim to have stopped, but sadly we can't verify any of that. Instead we can point to the Boston Marathon Bombings where the US Government was informed by other countries to watch out for these guys and we still did nothing.

      We also have the Fort Hood shooting. Where any Army person was using army computers to contact terrorists and went on to shoot up an army base. Where was the NSA there?

      "Days after the shooting, reports in the media revealed that a Joint Terrorism Task Force had been aware of e-mail communications between Hasan and the Yemen-based cleric Anwar al-Awlaki, who had been monitored by the NSA as a security threat, and that Hasan's colleagues had been aware of his increasing radicalization for several years. The failure to prevent the shootings led the Defense Department and the FBI to commission investigations, and for Congress to hold hearings."

    2. Re:This just in, spy wants spy rules to stay by dkleinsc · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Also, he's demonstrably wrong: After the whole Boston Marathon bombing went down, the support for the NSA spying went down, not up. A logical reason for this: the NSA had clearly failed to catch terrorists despite all their willful violation of the rights of all Americans, so the benefits for all that intrusion were approximately 0.

      Besides that, regardless of what the NSA does or doesn't do, your average American is about 15 times more likely to be killed by a drunk driver than a terrorist.

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    3. Re:This just in, spy wants spy rules to stay by ImOuttaHere · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The next attack will happen with or without illegal, unconstitutional domestic spying. I don't want you magic tiger protection rocks sir.

      I can't imagine how (some? many?) Americans take a face value any comment that says NSA spying will prevent attacks on Americans when it was not needed in 2001. There was plenty of clear intelligence information leading up to the events of 9/11. No vast spying on Americans was needed to warn the Bush administration that something big was about to happen.

      "Here is a representative sampling of the CIA threat reporting that was distributed to Bush administration officials during the spring and summer of 2001:

      -- CIA, "Bin Ladin Planning Multiple Operations," April 20
      -- CIA, "Bin Ladin Attacks May Be Imminent," June 23
      -- CIA, "Planning for Bin Ladin Attacks Continues, Despite Delays," July 2
      -- CIA, "Threat of Impending al Qaeda Attack to Continue Indefinitely," August 3

      The failure to respond adequately to these warnings was a policy failure by the Bush administration, not an intelligence failure by the U.S. intelligence community..."

      It makes me wonder why the NSA is pushing so hard to keep unconstitutional spying programs in place. What are they really doing? What are they needing to justify? What snake-oil are they trying to sell the American people? What are they really afraid of? Who are they attempting to control?

    4. Re:This just in, spy wants spy rules to stay by compro01 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Besides that, regardless of what the NSA does or doesn't do, your average American is about 15 times more likely to be killed by a drunk driver than a terrorist.

      Hell, on the roads, every month is September, 2001. Roughly a 9/11 worth of people die every single month in vehicle accidents.

      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
    5. Re:This just in, spy wants spy rules to stay by ImOuttaHere · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I have to agree. The NSA may or may not have stopped any attacks with this snooping... We also have the Fort Hood shooting. Where any Army person was using army computers to contact terrorists and went on to shoot up an army base. Where was the NSA there?...

      Allow me to take this just a small step further. What good has the NSA spying been in preventing any mass shooting attacks on Americans?

      Tell me about how the NSA prevented mass killings (of 4 or more people) in Sandy Hook, New York, Paris(TX), Tulsa, Callison, Terrell, Phoenix, Rice, Washington DC, Dallas, Clarksberg, Santa Monica, etc, etc, etc?

      Please don't tell me that NSA spying is a matter of definition. Mass death is mass death, regardless of country of origin, skin color, or religious bent.

    6. Re:This just in, spy wants spy rules to stay by berashith · · Score: 3, Interesting

      are you saying that it is ok for them to defend attacks that may originate outside the borders by spying on people within the borders, but then have no responsibility for not stopping things as it isnt their job? If it isnt their job, then dont do it, problem solved. If they say the goal is to stop attacks, and they need complete autonomy in their behavior, then they are 100% failures every time something happens. You cant play both sides of the coin.

      As they havent been stopping things, and things are a decided rarity, how about they quit their nonsense and start following the real laws of this country ( not the ones that arent constitutional and cant be challenged ) .

  3. Any chance we can act like adults this time? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Painful truths:
    NSA workers are not traitors that should be killed. Please look at the scum who cut off children's heads in CAR to understand what real tyranny is.

    NSA will be changed but domestic surveillance will probably go to the DOJ (who has a stellar track record)

    This has all happened before 20, 40, 70, and I think 150 years ago. It will probably happen again.

    Now, please, can we talk about changes without devolving into fake revolutionaries? You're pissed off. We all get it. Now let's do something useful other than scream.

    1. Re:Any chance we can act like adults this time? by freax · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I agree with this. I'm also really pissed that secret services refuse to create more transparency and do a lot of things that are not lawful (like dragnet surveillance, indiscriminate mass surveillance of ordinary law abiding citizens, economic espionage, etc).

      That, however, doesn't mean that we'll have any progress by calling workers at the NSA traitors who should be killed or even heavily sanctioned. Processes should however be fixed.

      I do think transparency and legality of their profession has to come back (by following the processes and requirements, and having a public debate on all this).

      It's not a deal society can make to allow a surveillance police state (even if it's here already; it still doesn't make it OK for it to stay). The US can and should make legislation deals with the EU on this if the fear is that internationally laws and processes aren't worth a lot. It can make such deals even with China or Russia, and with other BRIC countries too. There is no need to have invasive non-targeted worldwide surveillance of ordinary citizens for America to be much more safe than before 9/11. Whoever in the US military and/or government who's telling you that is lying.

      Right now, however, the US is showing absurd distrust in the rest of the world and actions done by your NSA as being seen in the population worldwide as military action against them. They are ordinary citizens with no intent to harm anybody in the US. But by invading their privacy so insanely massively you Americans ARE going to create a lot of nutcases for decades to come.

      Stop it.

  4. That is the guy.... by jimpop · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ..who was on guard duty before 9/11.... why should anyone listen to him?

  5. His argument is false by bazmail · · Score: 5, Insightful

    He argues that it is legal because it is useful. Using that logic, I should be allowed use claymore mines to protect my property from intruders. Indiscriminate, illegal but probably effective. He should remember, if you subvert the constitution, you corrode the very fabric of the nation. We're becoming just another regime.

  6. Re:Perhaps if the public new the truth... by Desler · · Score: 3, Informative

    LOVEINT wasn't an abuse? The FISA courts taking about how the NSA was deceiving them wasn't abuse? What the fuck is Hayden smoking to be making such outlandish claims?

  7. Well, that is Fucked. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'm not an America, although I am a citizen of one of the 5eyes - the one with a fundamentally criminal past.

    Freedom is about being about being able to live your life as you choose. Freedom is about disagreeing with other peoples' choices as to how they live their life, yet accepting that choice, as long as it doesn't to detrimentally affect yours.

    "O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?"

    Question mark is very well placed. The question mark was in the positive for around 200 years, however I think it is conclusive now. The answer is "Nope."

    There is no question about America now about being home of the free and the brave. Terrorism won, because terrorism is about causing terror, and therefore ridiculous levels of measures against it.

    (heh, this post will probably get me on the NSA list, but I'm probably already there anyway.)

  8. Re:The key word is... by Desler · · Score: 5, Insightful

    His claim about there being no abuses is a bald-faced lie. Why should anyone believe anything in that sentence after the first major lie?

  9. Record of Prevented Attacks by Phoenix666 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The record of prevented attacks, according to the official report, is zero. The surveillance programs the NSA runs have prevented no attacks. They have, however, fundamentally undermined our Constitution and the entire rule of law in the United States of America. The citizenry has been watching, stunned, while the Congress, Whitehouse, and courts in DC have been wiping their collective behind with our foundational document, and are now looking at each other, waiting to see who's gonna pick up the gun and put the mad dog down. The criminals in DC and Wall Street misread the apparent lack of reaction with acquiescence or agreement. It's not. It's the entire mass of the country, who already have their hands full with many, many deep problems, discovering this massive systemic betrayal and trying to process what the best course of action is. If DC does not act now to channel things into productive reform, they will explode to the detriment of all, but especially to the detriment of DC and their masters on Wall Street.

    --
    Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.
  10. After the next attack? by Dunbal · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "After the next attack"

    Wait a second - you mean that you admit the NSA is not able to prevent the attacks? OK, so explain again why it is a necessary, nay, "vital" government agency?

    --
    Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    1. Re:After the next attack? by aviators99 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The NSA *is* the "next attack". It's an enemy combatant's dream. They have succeeded beyond their wildest dreams.

  11. What by lagomorpha2 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "They may not poll real well right now. They'll poll damn well after the next attack ..."

    So... these things aren't popular now... but the next time they fail to stop an attack... Americans will be glad the NSA was here to fail to stop the attack?

    The sad part is he's probably right, the public actually is that stupid.

  12. Because of "OOH SKEERY!" by Chas · · Score: 4, Insightful

    He's right in one way. It's probably not going to change.

    And then he pulls the boogie man out of his pocket.

    "The next attack."

    "The next attack."

    So we're supposed to just huddle up in a corner and live in fear for the rest of forever. Just so that, MAYBE, some day, they catch another underpants bomber?

    Uhm...

    Not to put too fine a point on that, FUCK NO!

    At some point, reality sets in and people need to realize that The Real World (not the stupid "reality TV show") is NOT a safe place. And NO amount of watching will curtail EVERY attempt.

    Nor will throwing away our rights like a hot potato make us any safer.

    --


    Chas - The one, the only.
    THANK GOD!!!
  13. Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Looking at it from the outside, i.e not being a US citizen:

    1. You piss of everybody else on the planet, so do not expect any goodwill.
    2. There were abuses, please do google loveint.
    3. Snowden walked ot of NSA with *all* their goodies, so how says that that did not happen before ? He was just the first to go public with the abuses.
    4. How can any US citizen still talk about the "land of the free", that is totally ridiculous and hypocrite at the same time.
    5. You do have the best democracy that money can buy

  14. No abuses? by godless+dave · · Score: 5, Informative

    "Right now, since there have been no abuses..."
    NSA employee spied on nine women without detection
    NSA broke privacy rules thousands of times per year, audit finds
    No abuses, General?

    --
    "If it's real, then it gets more interesting the closer you examine it. If it's not real, just the opposite is true." -
    1. Re:No abuses? by kilfarsnar · · Score: 4, Interesting

      "Right now, since there have been no abuses..." NSA employee spied on nine women without detection NSA broke privacy rules thousands of times per year, audit finds No abuses, General?

      See, that's the problem right there. We know he has lied to us. He has no credibility. If he told me the sky was blue, I'd look up to be sure. As we all know, once you have lost trust, it doesn't matter if you're right or wrong; no on will listen to you. It's not just Hayden. So many government officials and spokespeople have lied to cover their asses, or hide wrongdoing, I just can't take their word for anything anymore.

      --
      "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
  15. Re:The key word is... by Jason+Levine · · Score: 3, Informative

    "There have been no abuses"

    What about LOVEINT?

    http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/09/26/20709855-loveint-nsa-letter-discloses-employee-eavesdropping-on-girlfriends-spouses?lite

    I'd certainly call using your "catch the terrorists super-spying" powers to eavesdrop on your girlfriend an abuse of power. Of course, he'd probably just hand wave that away as inconsequential because [super spooky voice]TERRORISTS!!!!!![/super spooky voice]

    --
    My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
  16. more afraid of the nsa by Dan667 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I wonder if this idiot general realize people are beginning to be more afraid of the nsa than terrorists. And I would say the level of incompetence the nsa has shown in being able to manage this enormous power with a single individual able to walk off with their intelligence crown jewels indicates no one should have these types of power. More innocent people are at risk from nsa and government incompetence than anything they think they are doing. The tsa is security theater not adding any actual security, and now the nsa is now is showing a level of intelligence theater whose only value may be their agents abusing to spy on their girlfriends.

  17. Gen. Hayden Quote is Insane! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    During the interview General Michael Hayen stated. "...and the only thing that people like me wish is: that when we do these kinds of decisions, that we base it on facts". Well, here are some facts for the POTUS to consider:

    FACT - U.S. Intellegence agencies ignored credible tips that could have stopped 9/11 (Flight Instructor).
    FACT - U.S. Intellegence agencies ignored credible tips that could have stopped the failed underwear bomber (Father).
    FACT - U.S. Intellegence agencies ignored credible tips that could have stopped the Boston Marathon Bombings (Boston Murder / Russia).
    FACT - Countries across the world are ceasing to use technology products with U.S. origin (Cisco, Google, etc), damaging the economy.
    FACT - U.S. (CIA specifically) drone strikes kill innocent civilians and create more enemies of the U.S.
    FACT - U.S. citizens killed by drone strikes are not provided due process.
    FACT - Documents released by Snowden indicate that FISA judges found NSA activities unconstitutional.

    In that light, General Michael Hayden and his ilk should be arrested for treason and war crimes. This may include members of the current and former exective branches (Read "Dirty Wars").

  18. Re:They'll poll damn well after the next attack by Rob+the+Bold · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Actually, they'll poll really well if some SWAT team kicks in some doors and stops the next attack. And the NSA's contribution to that is revealed. I don't think the current surveillance regime (what we knew of it, anyway) polled terribly well after Boston. The Russians told us to watch these guys and still our entire bag of tricks didn't stop them.

    True. Results would be a more effective argument. But they're not really interested in results -- at least from what people like Hayden do and say -- they're interested in pursuing unconstitutional total dragnet surveillance of everyone's communications for its own sake (and whatever nefarious uses they can come up with now or in the future). As you say, the system didn't help catch the Boston bad guys. It was never intended to. The Boston guys could have been caught by acting on the tip, getting a warrant based on that, which a judge would have certainly approved in a Constitutional, above-the-board process, tapping their phones, searching their place, interviewing acquaintances and other old-fashioned police work. All things that could be done with regular oversight and due process. No new laws, no secret courts, no black budgets.

    The NSA and the Executive branch want unfettered, unlimited, unaccountable surveillance for their own reasons. "Catching terr'ists" is just the excuse. I've even got a car analogy. Back in the day, I wanted a 4 barrel carburetor and high performance manifolds from my Mustang. I told my dad that it would get better mileage that way -- you know, 'cause "better breathing." Of course he didn't fall for that, he knew I just wanted it to go faster to impress friends and (in my mind) girls.

    --
    I am not a crackpot.
  19. Re:The key word is... by Jason+Levine · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It might not be an abuse by a majority of people, but it is an abuse. Hayden specifically stated that there were NO abuses and that the absence of abuses shows that the program should continue. Demonstrating that there WERE abuses (even if they weren't NSA-approved abuses) shows this line of argument to be completely false. (The fact that a program shouldn't be evaluated solely on the basis of "is it being abused right now" is a different conversation, though a relavent one to the overall discussion.)

    --
    My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.