Slashdot Mirror


Are New Technologies Undermining the Laws of War?

Lasrick writes "This is a great read — from the article: 'Today, emerging military technologies — including unmanned aerial vehicles, directed-energy weapons, lethal autonomous robots, and cyber weapons — raise the prospect of upheavals in military practice so fundamental that they challenge assumptions underlying long-established international laws of war, particularly those relating to the primacy of the state and the geographic bounds of warfare. But the laws of war have been developed over a long period, with commentary and input from many cultures. What would seem appropriate in this age of extraordinary technological change, the author concludes, is a reconsideration of the laws of war in a deliberate and focused international dialogue that includes a range of cultural and institutional perspectives.'"

57 of 317 comments (clear)

  1. As the old adage says... by x0ra · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "All is fair in love and war"

    1. Re:As the old adage says... by Thanshin · · Score: 5, Funny

      If your lovemaking includes unmanned aerial vehicles, directed-energy weapons, lethal autonomous robots and cyber weapons... You're probably doing it very right and should do online tutorials.

    2. Re:As the old adage says... by Taco+Cowboy · · Score: 2

      The TFA asks:


      Are New Technologies Undermining the Laws of War?

      You sez:

      "All is fair in love and war"

      Well, let's see

      Another adage puts it this way ...

      " To the victor goes the spoils "

      There is absolutely *NO* fairness in WAR.

      As for the "Laws of War", no matter if it came from Machiavelli or from Sun Zi, psy ops are as important as ever.

      No matter if it's MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) or killer drones, no matter if it's a symmetrical warfare or if it's asymmetrical (such as terrorism), human beings are _still_ human beings.

      For example: NSA is fighting a war against the citizens of the United States of America, and NSA has applied plenty of lessons it learned from both Machiavelli and Sun Zi.

      --
      Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
    3. Re:As the old adage says... by operagost · · Score: 2

      In America, sex happens behind closed doors, opening the doors is offensive and prohibited.

      And sex happens in the streets in Europe? Sign me up!

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
  2. Ignorance by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Ignorance is undermining the laws of war, the laws of commerce, and every other law our society used to have. This is what happens when you allow the world to be run by frat-echnocrats in suits.

    --
    May the Maths Be with you!
    1. Re:Ignorance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Your statement is correct. For example it is illegal under the rules of war to act in a battlefield and to not wear a uniform. If you are captured on a battlefield and you are not in uniform and you do not disclose your military ID data, (Name rank serial number) you are under the Geneva conventions a Spy and subject to summary execution. Every prisoner we took in Afghanistan and most in Iraq would have fit in this category. All Al Qaeda prisoners fit this category. Oh by the way, spies may be tortured under these conventions.

    2. Re:Ignorance by Qzukk · · Score: 2

      All Al Qaeda prisoners fit this category

      Except that Al Qaeda is not recognized as a State, so it's just some guy running around with a bomb strapped to his dick, not a spy. That's how we can bomb Pakistan without actually bombing Pakistan as an act of war.

      The laws do need updating to deal with the fact that rogue extremists are who we're fighting wars against now.

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
  3. Also, by smittyoneeach · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Those barbarians with the bows & arrows are completely dishonorable, unmanly, and don't know how to fight with coura--UGHH! [thump]

    --
    Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
    1. Re:Also, by DarkOx · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yes history repeats itself. I come back to the only justifiable war is one where you are willing to do what is required to win. If the issue is important enough to engage in massive property destructions and to kill or maim people, than it should never be done in vain, an obligation exists to see it thru and secure the intended outcome. "What is required" May vary if you posses an outsized military advantage you have the luxury not using certain forms of brutality and less des descriminating targeting practice and you should so long as it does not jepordise victory. If you are disadvantaged than asymmetric and "terror" tactics are probably a must.

      Societies not just soldiers go to war. It does not matter if you have a gun in hand or a garden hoe you are supporting the war fighting capability and so be considered a target if need be.

      --
      Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    2. Re:Also, by AdamColley · · Score: 4, Insightful

      There are no justifiable wars.

      What we have now are invasions of sovereign nations which happen to be chock full of resources and blind eyes turned to genocide elsewhere.

      Iraq and Afghanistan are about to fall to the taliban (mission accomplished claims notwithstanding) so after more than ten years, trillions of pounds and millions of lives lost (yes, brown people count) we have precisely nothing to show for it.

      Iraq was working better under Saddam than it is now, it's a joke (or would be if it hadn't cost so many lives)

      How about we start putting our trillions into solving problems at home instead of attacking people elsewhere and let other nations govern themselves.

      I'll leave you with this well known Einstein quote:

      “He who joyfully marches to music rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, senseless brutality, deplorable love-of-country stance and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be part of so base an action! It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder.”

    3. Re:Also, by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 3, Informative

      There are no justifiable wars.

      The US Civil War?

      World War II?

      Two of the most obvious examples of a justifiable war. There are others.

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    4. Re:Also, by PseudonymousBlowhard · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Was Kuwait working better under Saddam? Is Afghanistan falling to the Taliban really a case of letting "other nations govern themselves"? The problem with this kind of unconditional pacifism is that it requires everyone else to be a pacifist as well.

    5. Re:Also, by rioki · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Got news, the Geneva and Hague Convention only apply to regular military. So the moment you are either facing or are irregular combatants everything goes. But then you need to remember by who when the treaties where singed. At the time generals would send thousand men to their deaths and then congratulate each other over their victories over a cup of tee.

      Your assertions are correct and have lead to the impression of "clean" wars. But every war is dirty and bloody. I think each congressman and general should be required to send their brother, child or brother into the field in a war they authorize. If after that the war still seems like a good idea (e.g. destroying Nazi Germany*) then it worth fighting.

      (* I am part German and still think it was a necessary and good idea... in general)

    6. Re:Also, by dkleinsc · · Score: 3, Informative

      Actually, that is sort of the point of these invasions... to make sure that the governments are in some form representative of the people.

      That is pure unadulterated nonsense.

      For example, Hamid Karzai is no more representative of his people than Mohammed Omar: The difference is that Karzai is doing the bidding of the US and US-based oil companies instead of doing the bidding of Al Qaida and Iran. Karzai was not elected, he was selected by a meeting of the regional leaders of Afghanistan where the US Army was standing right outside the door (arguably in case the decision went differently).

      When the people of the Middle East have overthrown dictators and replaced them with democratically elected leaders, the US does their best to put a stop to it. Egypt is the prime example of this: The elected president Mohammed Morsi, though certainly far from a perfect bastion of freedom and democracy, was ousted in a military coup, and the military of Egypt has close ties to the US.

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    7. Re:Also, by Muad'Dave · · Score: 5, Interesting

      There was a sci-fi book I once read (for the life of me I can't remember the title) that had an alien society where if their governing body declared war, they'd fight the battle, and then all members of the governing body that voted for the war were put to death. You had to believe so strongly that the war was just that you were willing to give your own life.

      I think that's a grand idea.

      --
      Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
    8. Re: Also, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      "The trouble with quotes on the internet is that they are often misattributed" - Abraham Lincoln

    9. Re:Also, by umghhh · · Score: 2

      army standing behind the walls of the building where law making is done has a long traditions among civilized nations. You can consider this as another circumstance of life that is limiting your choices as it is when no army stands there but could have stood if wrong decision had been made. The 'no war' idea is a noble one but it does not consider the fact that not all people appreciate it and some of those are armed very well indeed. Why do we have to discuss this nonsense again and again? Wars were ever there and will be as long as some humans feel it worthwhile and if so the rest would do best to get prepared for such eventuality.

    10. Re:Also, by RabidReindeer · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The US Civil War? The South seceded from the North because their American Dream was based on States' Rights. Especially the right of States to ensure legal slavery. It wasn't like the North declared a jihad on the morally-bankrupt South. The two regions had been negotiating on the issue for decades. But when the South split, the more fundamental issue of whether it was the United States of America or the United States of America took over. Whether that justified a full-scale war or not is debatable.

      World War II? Hitler was the one that "justified" that war. But the responsibility of putting that monster in power is in large part laid to blame to the powers that ended WWI. If they hadn't been so blindly determined to punish Germany and so uncaring of the consequences, Hitler would not have been able to gain the power he did.

      In both cases, the "justifications" came after the fact, and had people spent more effort beforehand, it's unlikely that war would have happened. At least in Germany. In the USA, as mentioned, a lot of effort was expended, but they decided war was "justified" anyway.

      Traditionally, the "laws" of war exempted civilians. That's because in older times, states were non-democratic, the people had little say in the decision, and in many cases, the goal was to annex territory, so it wasn't good policy to alienate or exterminate people who would - if you won - become your newest citizens.

      The WTC incident (to take one example) was "justified" in that the USA, being an (alleged) democracy, had the implicit approval of the majority of the American people on the policies to which Al-Qaeda objected. Where their justification fails is that "majority" isn't totality and that in fact, there was a virtual certainty that not only were some of the victims willing to vote in the other direction, but that there was no "keep out" sign on the building that excluded Moslems. Many of which were likely to be more observant than the terrorists themselves, as the hijackers weren't exactly role models for the faith, even excluding their willingness to commit murder.

      There are "Laws of War" in constructs such as the Geneva Conventions, but there are also "Rules of War", which are the precepts from which the Laws of War are constructed. They include minimizing the destruction to the goals at hand, sparing the innocent, treating captured enemies according to the same standards as you would wish for your own forces, and so forth. Those rules have remained largely invariant despite the ever-increasing ability over history to remove the opposing forces from direct physical and emotional contact with each other.

    11. Re:Also, by YrWrstNtmr · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There are no justifiable wars.

      Sometimes, "war" is thrust upon you. The obvious classic example is WWII.
      The French/Belgians/Poles/Russians did not ask to be invaded. The Brits did not ask to be bombed.

      Sometimes, your choices are reduced to only two.
      1. Surrender and die
      or
      2. Fight back.
      There is no #3. Wait, there was a #3, which Chamberlain tried first. Didn't work. So that leaves fight back or die.

    12. Re:Also, by DSElliot · · Score: 2

      Well, seeing as that your domain suffix is .be and you wrote that statement in English instead of German, I would say that there are certainly some justifiable wars.

    13. Re:Also, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      Well... instead of complaining you could have done some googling (though I agree the gp should have given a source):

      "Wenn einer mit Vergnügen in Reih und Glied zu einer Musik marschieren kann, dann verachte ich ihn schon; er hat sein großes Gehirn nur aus Irrtum bekommen, da für ihn das Rückenmark schon völlig genügen würde. Diesen Schandfleck der Zivilisation sollte man so schnell wie möglich zum Verschwinden bringen. Heldentum auf Kommando, sinnlose Gewalttat und die leidige Vaterländerei, wie glühend hasse ich sie, wie gemein und verächtlich erscheint mir der Krieg; ich möchte mich lieber in Stücke schlagen lassen, als mich an einem so elenden Tun beteiligen! " (p. 499)
      and
      "Töten im Krieg ist nach meiner Auffassung um nichts besser als gewöhnlicher Mord." (p. 499)

      I'd say the the translation above is pretty close.

      Source:
      http://www.amazon.com/Mein-Weltbild-Albert-Einstein/dp/3856655107
      PDF: http://gedankenfrei.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/mein-weltbild-albert-einstein.pdf

    14. Re:Also, by PseudonymousBlowhard · · Score: 2

      The Taliban and orgs like it have "governed" Afghanistan for thousands of years. Don't be fooled by the propaganda effort to conflate the Taliban and Al-Qaeda.

      I wasn't. But the Taliban still aren't exactly representative of Afghans in general - aren't they basically just the Pashtuns? My point was just that letting one faction get the upper hand over the others isn't, as the original commenter seemed to think, the same thing as national self-determination.

    15. Re:Also, by Richard_at_work · · Score: 5, Informative

      Twas the Octospiders in Clarkes Rama series - any member that voted for or was involved in the war itself had an immediate sentence of death after the hostilities ended.

    16. Re:Also, by CastrTroy · · Score: 2

      As far as WWII goes, it's like the old saying, hindsight is 20/20. Sure there were decisions that were made, both by foreign government after WWI and by individual citizens in Germany that lead to the Nazi uprising. But once the Nazis got to a point of power, there wasn't any option other than war to stop them.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    17. Re:Also, by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 2

      "I'm not voting for war -- just give Hitler what he wants and cross our fingers!"

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    18. Re:Also, by MrL0G1C · · Score: 2

      Saddam was apparently lead to believe he could attack Kuwait without consequence, it could have been stopped before it started.

      There was no good reason for US to enter Afghanistan, the whole exercise was completely futile, US is mostly leaving now with more Afgans hating America more than ever.

      US goes to war to keep the corporate military machine going, if America stopped going to war it's economy would take a dive.

      --
      Waterfox - a Firefox fork with legacy extension support, security updates and better privacy by default.
    19. Re:Also, by El+Puerco+Loco · · Score: 2

      There was no WW2. We're entering the hundredth year of WW1.

    20. Re:Also, by PseudonymousBlowhard · · Score: 2

      Saddam was apparently lead to believe he could attack Kuwait without consequence

      If there's a difference between this and a policy of pacifism, I don't see it.

    21. Re:Also, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      As Machiavel said: "“People should either be caressed or crushed. If you do them minor damage they will get their revenge; but if you cripple them there is nothing they can do. If you need to injure someone, do it in such a way that you do not have to fear their vengeance.” The problem is that we have indecisive leaders that don't know if they should crush the middle east or caress them. We should take one approach and stick with it not try to do both and ending to do neither.

    22. Re:Also, by ausekilis · · Score: 2

      There are no justifiable wars.

      I agree that wars are horrible, but to say that none are justifiable I think is false. Diplomacy is not perfect and does fail from time to time. Then what are we left with? The advancement of drones and "lethal robots"? Do we have a race to create the best T-800? T-1000?

      It's unfortunate that there can be such disagreement and both parties (read: leaders) feel so strongly and are incapable of compromise,that the only resolution is war. Even if both sides were to fight with only drones/robots and the winner being the one with more robots standing (i.e. bloodless), it wouldn't solve the initial disagreement, not when you have a national leader willing to kill his own people to satiate and reinforce his thirst for power. Do you honestly think that given enough political pressure or enough economic loss that Saddam would have stepped down? Ghaddafi? Hitler? Stalin?... We are seeing just how well that works with North Korea right now.

      When a society is willing to die for their beleifs, and that beleif is that you are evil simply by your country of origin, how do you make and keep peace? What about a leader willing to kill his people just because they think differently or want more freedoms and opportunities thean the leader is willing to provide? How many bodies would it take before you intervene?

    23. Re:Also, by cusco · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Pipeline, rare earth elements (which the Soviets had mapped), but most important it was the largest source of opiates on the planet before the Taliban shut down production. The only opium still being grown in the country was in the territory controlled by our allies the Northern Warlords, and the prospective loss of income was frightening for the large international banks. Over a trillion dollars in drug money is laundered every year, over half of it through the US, with bank charges averaging 10-15% for the service. The Colombians and Mexicans were starting to pick up the slack, but they launder their money differently and the banksters were looking at a huge revenue loss. Certainly not the only reason for the invasion, just one of several.

      --
      "Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
    24. Re:Also, by bluegutang · · Score: 2

      Twas the Octospiders in Clarkes Rama series - any member that voted for or was involved in the war itself had an immediate sentence of death after the hostilities ended.

      Sounds like a strong incentive to continue hostilities indefinitely.

  4. The US is undermining the Laws of war. by miffo.swe · · Score: 2

    The technology is not undermining the established laws but the US use of the tech sure does. Using depleted uranium, murdering civilians based on shoddy intelligence, torturing people with new methods, social media puppetry, wholesale wiretapping etc is just things that have been avoided before but has been reintroduced when they could do it in new ways.

    The technology is not the problem at all, its the people using it.

    --
    HTTP/1.1 400
    1. Re:The US is undermining the Laws of war. by jeremyp · · Score: 2

      murdering civilians based on shoddy intelligence, torturing people with new methods, social media puppetry, wholesale wiretapping etc is just things that have been avoided before but has been reintroduced when they could do it in new ways.

      The technology is not the problem at all, its the people using it.

      All of those things have always been a part of war, except the social media thing, but that is just an instance of propaganda.

      Civilians have always found themselves being murdered in war. For example, in Wellington's Peninsular campaign, there were several instances of cities being taken by force and then the army doing a bit of rape pillage and murder. This was done by both sides even though the British were ostensibly trying to liberate the locals.

      Then the invention of the bomber allowed civilian murder to be taken to new extremes in WW2. The British bombing campaign was particularly bad, based as it was on the premise that the smallest target that could reliably be hit by night bombers was a city.

      Torture of captured opponents has always figured in warfare, if the opponent had information that you wanted.

      Wiretapping or earlier means of intercepting of communications have always figured in warfare.

      The tech just alters the details.

      --
      All I want is a secure system where it's easy to do anything I want. Is that too much to ask ~~ Randall Munroe
    2. Re:The US is undermining the Laws of war. by jmac_the_man · · Score: 3, Informative

      Then the invention of the bomber allowed civilian murder to be taken to new extremes in WW2. The British bombing campaign was particularly bad, based as it was on the premise that the smallest target that could reliably be hit by night bombers was a city.

      How accurate was German bombing during the Battle of Britain?

  5. Naive Article by DeathToBill · · Score: 2

    Firstly, Betteridge's law applies here.

    Secondly, the laws of war have never been developed through "a deliberate and focused international dialogue that includes a range of cultural and institutional perspectives." The laws of war have, unfortunately, always developed just after a major conflict, when lots of people said, "Whoa, we should do something to stop that happening again."

    --
    Slashdot - News for Nerds, Stuff that Matters, in ISO-8859-1 Has just realised that beta makes this signature redundant
    1. Re:Naive Article by TheloniousToady · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Firstly, Betteridge's law applies here.

      Yeah, I noticed that also. Which makes me wonder: if Slashdot ran an article called, "Does Betteridge's Law Apply to Every Headline Here That Ends With a Question Mark?", would it still apply?

  6. Re:Arbitrary. by Sique · · Score: 5, Informative
    International laws have existed since we have the idea of nations. After the Napoleonic Wars in Europe, there was the Congress of Vienna (1814/15), which effectively created a codex of international law in Europe. Then we have the founding of the International Red Cross after the Battle of Solferino 1859, which in turn was recognized subsequently by all warwaging countries and led to the first treaty about the Geneva Convention in 1864. And even before, there were multisided agreements between different powers which could also be viewed as international law -- think about the flagging rules of battle ships, merchant ships and pirate ships during the Age of the European Expansion between the 15th and the 18th century.

    And yes, like every law, also international laws are often and constantly broken, and enforcing those laws is even more complicated than national law.

    --
    .sig: Sique *sigh*
  7. Re:War is bad/wrong/immoral, period. by oodaloop · · Score: 2

    The only "law of war" that we need is one that states that war is not allowed, period. If you're an aggressor, you are breaking the "law of war".

    That sounds really great, but I doubt it would work well in practice. The colonies would still be under the Crown, who never lost power. France would be under control of Louis XXXXII, the South would still run on slavery, etc. Without war and revolution, how would despotic regimes ever end?

    --
    Tic-Tac-Toe, Global Thermonuclear War, and relationships all have the same winning move.
  8. There are no nations. There are no "peoples" by Neo-Rio-101 · · Score: 2

    "You are an old man who thinks in terms of nations and peoples. There are no nations. There are no peoples. There are no Russians. There are no Arabs. There are no Third Worlds. There is no West. There is only one holistic system of systems. One vast and immane, interwoven, interacting, multi-varied, multi-national dominion of dollars. Petro-dollars, electro-dollars, multi-dollars, reichmarks, rands, rubles, pounds and shekels"

    - Arthur Jensen (in the 1976 movie "Network")

    --
    READY.
    PRINT ""+-0
    1. Re: There are no nations. There are no "peoples" by swb · · Score: 2

      Rollerball and Network were two of the most prescient films of the 1970s.

    2. Re: There are no nations. There are no "peoples" by Vitriol+Angst · · Score: 4, Informative

      As I get older, it seems that the movie Network is more truth.

      Snowden did not hurt US security -- because this data is likely for sale to China via a contractor. Our "massive trading partner" is not surprised. The "damage" was for the merely large companies to learn what the multinationals already knew. And "spying on everything" takes on other connotations if you think of economics, trade secrets, and negotiations. Sure, getting dirt on politicians is profitable -- but knowing about money and technology is profit.

      If there were an ACTUAL ENEMY out there, the US, the pentagon, and our secret agencies would be acting a lot differently than how they do now. It seems that these governments are more afraid of their own people. It's as if they were making a show of enemies at the gate to convince us to keep building up the castle and disenfranchise us.

      Why is China, after years of peace with the USA while we did not take advantage of superior power, now buying air craft carriers and possibly getting into spending a lot of their prosperity on a military like we do? Is the air craft carrier going to help them dominate something that WalMart didn't already help them own? Are they going to attack a Samsung store down the street? Couldn't they continue dominating the world better by restricting imports and foreign ownership and continuing their public works projects and subsidizing strategic industries? Or are they only interested in "enough prosperity" and then later the same excuses to the middle class why they can no longer "afford education and health care" -- when they have record profits one day like we do now?

      --
      >>"ad space available -- low rates!!!"
  9. Repost of an earlier story by paiute · · Score: 2

    Today, emerging military technologies — including breech-loading cannons and rifled barrels — raise the prospect of upheavals in military practice so fundamental that they challenge assumptions underlying long-established international laws of war....

    Today, emerging military technologies — including tanks, aeroplanes and machine guns — raise the prospect of upheavals in military practice so fundamental that they challenge assumptions underlying long-established international laws of war....

    Today, emerging military technologies — including long range monoplanes and submarines — raise the prospect of upheavals in military practice so fundamental that they challenge assumptions underlying long-established international laws of war....

    --
    If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
  10. The wills of the many outclassed by the few. by VortexCortex · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The thing about humans piloting machines of war is that you still need a lot of people's consent to fight the war. With a remote drone operator you could have a lot fewer folks consent for the same or more war-fighting: Have one guy take the helm of the lead fighting machine in an autopilot squadron. Kill their drone, it doesn't injure the pilot, not a scratch. Their neck's not on the line. They switch drones and keep coming for as much money as it takes to win.

    Against enemies yields less risk of life for your soldiers, more bag for your Buck, more death dealt, more atrocities. Given that these systems aren't even needed due to our existing military might it just seems a little too convenient that it would also take less folks to fight against their own people with these drones -- detached, not having to show your face on the battle field -- and especially when we discover government drones are making their way to the homeland skies.

    If your neck is not on the line, you have no right to pull the trigger. To remove the human element from war is inhumane by definition.

    1. Re:The wills of the many outclassed by the few. by Sique · · Score: 2
      You could argue the same already for spears, arrows, cannonballs and bullets. The place where they inflict damage is not the place where the person responsible for them is. With the advent of ballistic missiles, this person didn't even need to be in the same country or at the same continent. Cruise missiles are nothing else than one-way-drones.

      This is in principle an age old problem, and it is unresolved since then. But there is not much pressure to actually resolve it, because it just means that heroism doesn't win wars, but armoury, weapons, tactics and overwhelming resources do.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    2. Re:The wills of the many outclassed by the few. by Vitriol+Angst · · Score: 2

      Yeah, drones make war too easy.

      And even suicide attacks are self-moderating. But a drone can "strap on" some ordinance and you don't even need someone to volunteer or believe enough in the cause. There is no sacrifice or backlash -- just continual asymmetric warfare.

      How does someone on the receiving end of such a drone policy react? They aren't ALL bond villains, are they? They had a gripe and were in our way and someone they know got attacked by a faceless drone. I'm thinking the futility and anger would be greater because the "who did this" is more removed. This makes it more likely that innocent people are retaliated against in the future -- not less.

      --
      >>"ad space available -- low rates!!!"
    3. Re:The wills of the many outclassed by the few. by Gerner · · Score: 2

      The place where they inflict damage is not the place where the person responsible for them is.

      The difference with drones is that there is no way to figure out where the person is that "pulled the trigger". With spears, arrows, guns, etc. you could see the person. With missiles, you could at least find the launch points using satellite imagery, radio, etc. With drones you have no idea where the responsible party might be. They could be on a boat, in some random country, or their mom's basement.

    4. Re:The wills of the many outclassed by the few. by Sique · · Score: 3, Informative

      Satellite imagery is a very late addition to the game. Artillery cannons have a large range of dozens of miles, and they had it already in WWI. When the Germans attacked the Belgian fortresses at Liege, they did it with their big 16.5-inch-howitzer ("Big Bertha") which had a firing range of about 8 mls. No way for the Belgians to figure out where the cannon actually was placed, they just got the shells on their fortresses. The Paris Gun of 1918 even had a firing range of 80 mls, and when it attacked Paris, the Parisians could not hear the muzzle sound, so they had no clue from where they were attacked.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
  11. Re:War is bad/wrong/immoral, period. by AmiMoJo · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Actually that is the law. Starting a war of aggression is always a crime in international law. The only reason any nation is allowed to wage war is in self defence. That is why many people consider the Iraq invasion to have been illegal.

    As for colonies international law requires that populations be given the right to self determination. It's hard to enforce but in theory if the population of a geographical area within a country can show that they wish to be independent the country is obliged to try and facilitate that, perhaps through devolved powers or by letting them set up on their own. Slavery is illegal, internal revolutions are not wars per-se but internal conflict or civil war. The law only applies to nation states, not individuals or factions within nations.

    --
    const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
    SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
  12. Current Laws by dazoline · · Score: 2

    Did the machine gun change the rules of war? Rules of engagement yes. Where you lie down in the mud to avoid all the lead flying whereas you stood shoulder to shoulder before. Rules about who can be rightfully killed as a combatant and how prisoners of war and non combatants are treated, no. The only thing that's changed recently is the attitude of a certain super power towards obeying the current laws that work perfectly fine.

  13. The "rules" have no practical relevance by petes_PoV · · Score: 2

    The USA is the prime developer of all these new technologies, and by far the biggest user of them. The USA has also declared that it is not bound by the International Criminal Court which investigates and tries criminal acts during wars. As a consequence the US feels that it is above the sanction of the rest of the world and has no need of it's "rules" for warfare.

    --
    politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
  14. There is only one law of war by Dunbal · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Clausewitz stated in his book "On War" that war is won by the most violent. Therefore the one with the biggest guns (or at least the one who makes the most effective use of them) wins. And he gets to write the rules, and ignore the inconvenient ones. After all - who is going to stop him? The "rules of war" are only good during peacetime, and usually only as a pretext to help justify another war. Ironic, no?

    --
    Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
  15. Re:Or we could just stop starting wars... by Sarten-X · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I spent some time volunteering in Africa, and I've seen the problems of hunger firsthand.

    There is enough food overall... not much excess, but often enough for everyone to survive. The problem is that, for example, the food is over on the fertile side of a mountain ridge, while the starving people are on the other side. The only pass is controlled by a local oppressor who charges high tolls to use "his" road, and he's able to bribe the government agents and local police into letting him stay.

    One option is to just keep paying the tolls, and those starving people keep starving... but it's easy, and offends nobody.

    Someone with wealth could pay the toll or use a different route, and bring ample food to support the locals, but then they're dependent on those gifts, and the oppressor could start using force to maintain his rule. The money used for support is also a drain on the provider's economy, so the future stability of such a supply is questionable.

    The reliance on the pass could be removed, but that means improving local production. It's a long process, at best, and requires a large start-up cost.

    Finally, we could just use force. Send in a squad of trained soldiers to forcibly allow traffic through the pass, even if that means killing the armed guards enforcing the tolls. Through overwhelming force, ensure that no replacements will be able to oppress traffic again.

    Of course, force is never easy. There's always the risk that the oppressor will fight back, or that a new oppressor will patiently wait until the squad leaves to take over again. There will be some locals who oppose the intrusion, especially since they have been told (often by the oppressor himself) that the greatest embarrassment they could have is to accept help from outsiders. There will also be those who don't understand the connection between the tolls, the food supply, and standard of living - they just think they're poor because God is punishing them (and the church's leaders don't understand well enough to change that, either).

    Going from that 0% to a sustained 0.1% is the hardest step, because it means removing the long-term limits that have already exhausted the local ability to provide for themselves. Once those barriers are gone and food is available at reasonable prices, going to 0.2% or higher is just a matter of doing the same thing more... move more trucks of tubers, make more salable products, and so forth. It's an upward spiral, but starting the process isn't easy.

    --
    You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
  16. War is an ironic racket by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 4, Informative

    From a Marine Major General: http://warisaracket.org/racket.html "Smedley Butler: War is just a racket. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of people. Only a small inside group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the masses. I believe in adequate defense at the coastline and nothing else. If a nation comes over here to fight, then we'll fight. The trouble with America is that when the dollar only earns 6 percent over here, then it gets restless and goes overseas to get 100 percent. Then the flag follows the dollar and the soldiers follow the flag. I wouldn't go to war again as I have done to protect some lousy investment of the bankers. There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket."

    At length: http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.html

    Another quote by Einstein: "The release of atomic power has changed everything except our way of thinking ... the solution to this problem lies in the heart of mankind. If only I had known, I should have become a watchmaker. (1945)"

    See also this essay by me on how that applies to all forms of modern weaponry, inspired by that Einstein quote, given a modern-day digital watch has more computing power than was used to design the first atomic weapons:
    http://www.pdfernhout.net/recognizing-irony-is-a-key-to-transcending-militarism.html
    ----
    Military robots like drones are ironic because they are created essentially to force humans to work like robots in an industrialized social order. Why not just create industrial robots to do the work instead?
    Nuclear weapons are ironic because they are about using space age systems to fight over oil and land. Why not just use advanced materials as found in nuclear missiles to make renewable energy sources (like windmills or solar panels) to replace oil, or why not use rocketry to move into space by building space habitats for more land?
    Biological weapons like genetically-engineered plagues are ironic because they are about using advanced life-altering biotechnology to fight over which old-fashioned humans get to occupy the planet. Why not just use advanced biotech to let people pick their skin color, or to create living arkologies and agricultural abundance for everyone everywhere?
    These militaristic socio-economic ironies would be hilarious if they were not so deadly serious. Here is some dark humor I wrote on the topic:
    A post-scarcity "Downfall" parody remix of the bunker scene. https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/openmanufacturing/8qspPyyS1tY/vZacyDL86DIJ
    See also a little ironic story I wrote on trying to talk the USA out of collective suicide because it feels "Burdened by Bags of Sand". http://www.pdfernhout.net/burdened-by-bags-of-sand.html
    Or this YouTube video I put together: The Richest Man in the World: A parable about structural unemployment and a basic income. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p14bAe6AzhA
    Likewise, even United States three-letter agencies like the NSA and the CIA, as well as their foreign counterparts, are becoming ironic institutions in many ways. Despite probably having more computing power per square foot than any other place in the world, they seem not to have thought much about the implications of all that computer power and organized information to transform the world into a place of abundance for all. Cheap computing makes possibl

    --
    A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
  17. Re:Ha. by cusco · · Score: 2

    Actually, no one ever wins in Afghanistan but the Afghans (a grouping of peoples which is about as nebulous as can be). No one has managed to hold that territory for more than a generation since Alexander the Great. Not the British, not the Moguls, not the Mongols, not the Kazakhs, not even the Persians. The utter stupidity of the Pentagon rarely amazes me any more, but when they agreed to take over Afghanistan I was totally flabbergasted. WTF were they even thinking?

    --
    "Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
  18. Re:Nothing new in essence by cusco · · Score: 2

    By all the gods, there are still people who spout this nonsense? Good grief. Vietnam was unwillable from the moment the French originally invaded. It's impossible to permanently hold a territory where the population hates you, and the day they organize is the day you start to lose. Why do you think that Cuba is still free? Even the morons in the Pentagon don't want to touch that one.

    --
    "Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
  19. Re:Ha. by stdarg · · Score: 2

    The purpose of warfare is generally to control something, be it territory, a trade route, raw materials, a population, whatever.

    I think that's the traditional purpose of warfare but today it's not. America fights wars of principle. Why do we interfere in random civil wars like Bosnia? What did we gain? Why did people want the US to get involved in Rwanda? Why did we start giving weapons to Syrian rebels? Because we think we'll be in control of Syria afterwards?

    It's a product of being rich and detached from the actual conflict. Personally I think it's linked to the decline of religion in the US. People need something to believe in, and war gives us such a thing -- that we're these awesome champions of justice, that we're going to go make a positive difference in the world, etc. I saw it first hand when the US liberated Iraq. Nobody who supported the war said "Oh sweet we'll control their territory forever." People GENUINELY thought that once we liberated them and showed them democracy and stuff that they'd be our new buddies.

    After a dozen years of the second-most expensive occupation in history the entire accomplishments of the US in Afghanistan is that they control most of Kabul and some if its suburbs, their heavily-armed military bases are secure, and they control some of the mountain passes.

    Look I readily agree that if the goal is to control the territory and make them like us, then we've lost. I don't think that's the goal. If the goal is to say "This is what happens when you harbor terrorists who we don't also support.." then we won. If it's just to say "Look we can still do what we want when we want and no other country is going to step in to help our target" then we won.

    If you're cynical maybe it's to say "Look we have enough control over our domestic affairs and population that we can wage the 2nd most expensive occupation in history, get nothing out of it, and face no consequences."

    Bottom line, winning a war today, when war is about principles, is entirely subjective. There are winners and losers on both sides. In my opinion, the Afghanistan War was about punishment and we won. Then it morphed into a humanitarian mission, which is separate, and stupid, and we will not win that. The Iraq War also had two parts. We obviously won the military part, and again lost/will lose the humanitarian part. That said, who knows... maybe the Kurds will break away from Iraq and in hindsight it will be a net win (though why we care is beyond me).