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China Tops Europe In R&D Intensity

Posted by Unknown on from the someone-has-to-do-it dept.

ananyo writes "By pouring cash into science and technology faster than its economy has expanded, China has for the first time overtaken Europe on a key measure of innovation: the share of its economy devoted to research and development. In 2012, China invested 1.98% of its gross domestic product (GDP) into R&D — just edging out the 28 member states of the European Union, which together managed 1.96%, according to the latest estimates of research intensity, to be released this month by the OECD. The figures show that China's research intensity has tripled since 1998, whereas Europe's has barely increased (see graph). The numbers are dominated by business spending, reflecting China's push in the manufacturing and information- and communication-technology industries."

25 of 134 comments (clear)

  1. They produce more.. what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    They might spend more, but considering all the false papers that come out of China, they're not getting much for their money. They'll continue to pirate our research for the considerable future.

    1. Re: They produce more.. what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Suggest that you move straight to Beijing then. Their economy is so awesome because of the large salaries that they pay those slaves to work in their poisonous factories that spew out counterfeit goods to poison our children with.

    2. Re: They produce more.. what? by Luckyo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If you think China is better at treating its workers, I have land on the Moon to sell you.

      And we're talking research here, not employment. And in that regard, GP is correct - spending does not equal results. China needs some time to develop the proper R&D culture, as it's simply not there yet. It has the spending power, but it lacks efficiency.

    3. Re:They produce more.. what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The thing they seem to export the most of is grad students.

    4. Re: They produce more.. what? by rioki · · Score: 4, Informative

      1. China does not top Europe in any way, the absolute numbers are fully and totally the opposite. The TFA refers to percent of GDP, which is meaningless.

      2. Being on welfare in Germany compares to working off you ass on low to medium job in the US. You just need to do the minimum of research on the different programs.

      3. There is something called elevator effect, in which the median standard of living is raised. The low end of German income will get you a middle class standard of living compared to 30 years ago. The only shitty practice are the total lack of minimum wage in Germany, where people have a job and get welfare to prop them up.

      Yes complaining, that is what we Germans are really good at...

    5. Re: They produce more.. what? by Plammox · · Score: 2

      Yes, because the Germans forced these countries to run their own economies into the ditch and rack up a gigantic debt...ahem...

    6. Re: They produce more.. what? by ebno-10db · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Spain, Ireland and a few others were considered models of economic growth and probity before the Lesser Depression. Now of course they're considered "irresponsible" by the same people that lauded them before. Greece is a different story, but put that one aside because it's so different than the others and their economy is so small that it's not of great importance to the EU. Comparing Greece and Spain is absurd.

      Germany, despite its other virtues, is a mercantilist country. No wonder they embraced the Euro. Otherwise when the economies of other European countries went south (more than Germany's) the exchange rates of those countries' currencies would have dropped and Germany would have lost much of their current advantage.

    7. Re: They produce more.. what? by i+kan+reed · · Score: 5, Informative

      Your point could have been made without the racist implicit assumption that "evil chinese" are trying to poison westerners. They just have lax environmental standards, and the people of China are starting to take notice of how badly it hurts their lives, and the government there is begining to cave, just like the early days before the EPA in the USA.

      The rise of the East is good for the world, the more places that have an educated middle class, the less room there is for exploitation. It just happens in a way where exploitation goes way up before it goes down.

    8. Re: They produce more.. what? by jalopezp · · Score: 4, Informative

      You forget that these spending numbers are percentages of GDP, not absolute numbers. In this regard, China does not have the spending capacity. In terms of nominal GDP (World Bank, 2012), the EU spent $3.27e11 (327 short billions) in R&D, while China spent $1.65e11 - only just over half. The US, with a slightly smaller GDP than Europe but a higher R&D expenditure is still winning the spending race with $4.35e11. You'll notice TFA also spends most of its time criticising the quality of Chinese research, consistent with the western notion that academic freedom and a competitive market are integral to scientific and technological progress.

      The countries with the highest GERD in the OECD are:

      1. Israel (4.38),
      2. Finland (3.78),
      3. Korea (3.74),
      4. Sweden (3.37),
      5. Japan (3.26),
      6. Denmark (3.06).

      source

    9. Re: They produce more.. what? by cyberchondriac · · Score: 2

      Your point could have been made without the racist implicit assumption that "evil chinese" are trying to poison westerners. They just have lax environmental standards, and the people of China are starting to take notice of how badly it hurts their lives, and the government there is begining to cave, just like the early days before the EPA in the USA.

      The rise of the East is good for the world, the more places that have an educated middle class, the less room there is for exploitation. It just happens in a way where exploitation goes way up before it goes down.

      Really, you drew the racist card on this? Currently, China has some terrible policies, on their own people as well, and it's driven largely by their economy, not their ethnicity. Nowhere did parent suggest that it's because Chinese people, as a race, (not as a country, government, or culture) are somehow "inferior" to other races, nor did he imply China could never change because of who they are, ethnically. And why has no one ever been accused of racism when referring to American white devils?
      Throwing around terms like racist, bigot, and homophobe at the drop of a hat have become the new Godwin's Law.

      --

      Look back up at my post, now look back down, you're on the Internet. Now look back up. I'm a signature.
    10. Re: They produce more.. what? by ebno-10db · · Score: 2

      'Growth' by spending borrowed money on imported products is not growth.

      It can be. The US was a major debtor country in the latter 19th century when our industrial growth rate was at its highest. Much of the development of the US, including the "Old West", was financed by the British.

    11. Re: They produce more.. what? by Dorianny · · Score: 2

      People living from wellfare bein treated like dirt etc.

      Yeah, they are really not getting enough free money from the people who are working. Beggars can't be choosers.

      The problem is that there is a large and growing number of people working full time and needing welfare assistance because they get paid less than the cost of living. This is really corporations gaming the welfare system and exploiting the employment condititions but it the poor bastards breaking their backs for little that also have to deal with being treeted as leeches by society.

  2. Meaningless values are meaningless. by rioki · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Is it just me or are the given values borderline meaningless. The given values are percent relative to GDP, so they basically indicate the willingness to spend a higher portion of their cash flow for R&D. On an absolute scale this meaningless, a small country could spend 50% of their GDP on R&D and still have less output than a huge nation spending 1%. Then again, raw money value also does not translate to actual scientific progress.

    1. Re:Meaningless values are meaningless. by Mr.+Droopy+Drawers · · Score: 4, Interesting

      agreed. The method in which this is calculated really isn't described either. Even though I'm in a development role, we're pressured to demonstrate "research" when we're really just assembling code.

      US/Europe need to actually produce real stuff. Anything else is just proprietary fodder for others to take.

      --

      To Copy from One is Plagiarism; To Copy from Many is Research.

    2. Re:Meaningless values are meaningless. by afidel · · Score: 3, Informative

      When the third largest economy in the world (or second depending on how you put Europe together) is outspending you on metrics that lead to future growth it absolutely is a meaningful metric. As to scientific progress, this isn't just about science, it's about economics as TFA mentions this is all R&D and much of it in China is companies spending on developing existing knowledge into better, cheaper products.

      As an example take solar cells, we've had them for decades and while new research might be upping the maximum possible efficiency by 1-2% per decade at this point the Chinese have been reducing the cost per watt by 90% per decade, which is more important overall?

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    3. Re:Meaningless values are meaningless. by bluegutang · · Score: 3, Informative

      Percentages relative to GDP are available too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_research_and_development_spending

      The list goes as follows:

      1. Israel 4.2%
      2. South Korea 3.74%
      3. Japan 3.67%
      4. Sweden 3.3%
      5. Finland 3.1%
      6. United States 2.7% ...
      14. China 1.97%

      China's figure is still pretty impressive since it is the only developing country over 1% (you would expect developing countries to have low values, since providing for basic necessities is a more pressing need than in rich countries).

  3. Re:Its worse than that by JazzLad · · Score: 3, Insightful

    We used to say this of Japan.

    --
    "If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear." - Every fascist, ever
  4. Re:Its worse than that by Thanshin · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Fortunately for them, Capitalism doesn't care. If it can be sold, it doesn't matter where it was created, how poorly made it is or how much was the idea stolen.

  5. Re:It's not so hard by Thanshin · · Score: 2

    So it is hard.

    Maintaining control while having a relaxed attitude towards human rights and no social equality isn't trivial. If it was easy, every other country would be doing that.

    Or you believe that power abides by human rights (more or less, and only when it's not convenient to forget them) because of the goodness of its heart.

    Eventually, China will have to deal with revolting masses just like everyone else; and it will probably use a mix of some tiny rights, lies, misdirection and propaganda, just like everyone else. Because, after all, all countries are forced to use human beings as their main work force.

  6. Re:Its worse than that by ebno-10db · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Really? Why?

    Because Japan's economic growth after WWII did depend heavily on inexpensive knock-off copies. That only changed several decades after WWII, when their economy had reached a higher level.

    There are also important difference between Japan and China though. Japan heavily emphasized quality. The Deming prize for improved quality is awarded in Japan, and it's quite prestigious. Ironically it's named for W. Edwards Deming - an American. He had some excellent ideas for quality improvement that the Japanese took very seriously. Unfortunately many American manufacturers didn't (especially car companies).

    Another difference is that Japan always discouraged foreign direct investment.

  7. Re:Its worse than that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The ironic thing is that a lot of "cheap Chinese" goods is specced like that from the company importing things.

    If I wanted something done right, with proper tolerances, materials, and labor, a Chinese factory can do the job. It will cost more than just doing the absolute cheapest possible work, but the end product will be better.

    However, that is where China loses its edge. If I want a good product, I can have it made in the US, Germany, UK, Austria, Switzerland, Canada, Israel, Russia, Japan, or almost anywhere. If I wanted to make it dirt cheap and cut every corner imaginable, then China is good at this.

    So, when people blame China for shoddy items, in reality, the blame is usually on the importer who specced the crap to be made in the first place.

    This is something I learned the hard way. I am working on some manufacturing, and if I want to have it done in China, I either hand over everything to a company there, or partner there with the Chinese firm having 51% ownership of the endeavor.

    Instead, I'm probably going to bite the bullet and get what I needed produced domestically, or buy the plastic injection machinery and do it in-house. An added benefit for that is that I don't have to care about my stuff being stacked up on a highly polluting ship (the tar used in those big cargo ship engines is extremely toxic stuff), so I can state better environmental responsibility.

  8. Re:Its worse than that by ebno-10db · · Score: 3, Informative

    For example they can not bow to American pressure to make their currency unatractive like Japan did and end up with lost decades.

    In other words, it's ok for China to be mercantilist and keep their currency artificially low, but wrong for the US to object to it.

    As for "bow[ing] to American pressure", would that include the US threatening to impose tariffs and quotas on Chinese imports? As a sovereign country the US can do that. Don't bother giving me any nonsense about "violation of international agreements", because China has been in such blatant violation of so many agreements for so long that it's laughable.

    You're also completely wrong about what caused Japan's lost decade(s). It was caused by a collapse of stock and real estate bubbles. It's similar to what happened here more recently, except that fortunately for us, they didn't happen at the same time. And as absurd as our real estate bubble was, it was nothing compared to Japan's. It got so ridiculous that the valuation of the grounds of the Imperial Palace was higher than for the entire state of California.

  9. Finland! by DarthVain · · Score: 4, Insightful

    OK how the fsck is Finland seemingly the best at everything? Seems like whenever there is a top list of something positive about countries Finland is top 5 every time (and Sweden also).

    Going to have to move there or something.

    1. Re:Finland! by Luckyo · · Score: 2

      Healthy mix of socialism and capitalism that works much better than pure capitalism, plus small country needs to get more out of the small population than big one. It can't afford to waste human potential in the way a big country like US or China can.

      As a result, efficiency counters tend to be up all over the board for Nordic countries.

    2. Re:Finland! by Luckyo · · Score: 2

      Israel is above everyone by a large margin because of the military R&D, which is actually sponsored by US. As a result, the relation to GDP of Israel is massively skewed, as it's basically bankrolled by US.