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Valve Working on GNU/Linux Native Open Source OpenGL Debugger
jones_supa writes "OpenGL debugging has always lagged behind DirectX, mainly because of the excellent DX graphics debugging tools shipping with Visual Studio and GL being left with APITrace. Valve's Linux initiatives are making game companies to think about OpenGL, and the video game company wants to create a good open source OpenGL debugger to improve the ecosystem. AMD and Nvidia have already expressed interest in helping them out. Valve has been developing VOGL mostly on Ubuntu-based distributions under Qt Creator. The software currently supports tracing OpenGL 1.0 through 3.3 (core and compatibility), and is expected to eventually support OpenGL 4.x. Many more details on VOGL can be found at Valve's Rich Geldreich's blog."
This looks much nicer than BuGLe. Valve is using Mercurial for version control and they plan to throw it up on bitbucket under an unspecified open source license soon. It works with clang and gcc, but debugging with gcc is currently very slow (hopefully something that can be fixed once the source is available and the gcc hackers can see what's going on). The tracer's internal binary log format can be converted into JSON for use with other tools as well.
They're building out a comfortable development environment for steam machines. Which is great. When proper well documented tool are available, developers are less likely to shun a platform. If there exists a some GPU memory profiling software (not that a team couldn't competently create their own system) and keyword completion for OpenGL calls then I might consider switching over to Ubuntu for development myself.
This is, of course, throwing aside all DX vs OpenGL arguments based on feature support (which I'm not really familiar with at this time).
Eat sleep die
they plan to throw it up on bitbucket
Eww. I'd honestly expect to throw up something called "BuGLE" in a...bitbucket. "VOGL" doesn't quite sound like an onomatopoeia for vomiting though.
Are you upset about something? You seem really angry. Whatever it is, I hope you get it sorted.
Since I don't work on this type of stuff myself, I may be a bit ignorant, but why not build it on top of APITrace? And in what way is APITrace lacking?
Have a look at https://github.com/XenonofArcticus/GLSL-Debugger
It is rude to randomly redirect visitors to beta.slashdot.
Even more so because beta sucks.
VOGL sounds like Vogel, the German word for bird, related to English fowl. If you ate badly cooked chicken, you might throw it up.
Once people get it right that steamworks is the part that is DRM and steam is a distribution service and a store... I mean. There are some games that have no DRM at all and after you download them you can use them for whatever. But nooo, a distribution service requiring you to log in is DRM (never mind that GOG also requires you to log in for first download, and they get praised as DRM-free). /rant
I don't care if I'm wrong. I only care about everyone obtaining something from the discussion.
Am I required to have steam installed on my machine to use these non DRM games?
No.
no, just move them out of the steam folder
But you get real installation packages from GOG.
AMD's CodeXL, http://developer.amd.com/tools-and-sdks/heterogeneous-computing/codexl/, has proven useful many times while writing OpenGL on Linux. If they make one that is graphics card manufacturer agnostic it would be awesome.
/.:Glorious design! Glorious Mobile-browsers! Bask the in the un-usability! ./: OH! Oh! I'm sorry! This is abuse!
AC: Yes, but I came here for an argument!!
that's what Slashdot Beta feels like.
But nooo, a distribution service requiring you to log in is DRM (never mind that GOG also requires you to log in for first download, and they get praised as DRM-free). /rant
So a business that makes its money selling DRM-free games and makes you sign in every time you want to re-download the ones you purchased at no additional charge is evil?
You're an ass.
Only if you're on Windows or OS X. Otherwise, treat them as archives and use innoextract.
Why would AMD sink resources into this instead of just open sourcing CodeXL?
http://developer.amd.com/tools-and-sdks/heterogeneous-computing/codexl/
why is there a steam folder if he isn't required to have steam installed?
So steam has somewhere to put the games it downloads for you. This really isn't that complicated. Game producers determine the DRM. If the producer chooses none then Steam downloads the files to the steam directory and keeps them up to date for you if you log in and launches the game for you if you log in. OR you can move the files wherever you want and log in or not and the game works just fine. Don't let reality get in the way of your anti-DRM narrative though.
I think most people are fine with sign in to re-download. It is the install fucking steam to download that is the issue.
Interesting. I might actually have a look at steam again. previously it always required you to install the steam client to download a game. If that isn't required anymore then I might actually use them again.
Reasons like this are why Vavle's push is good for the entire Linux community and not just gamers. I see a lot of naysaying about SteamOS, but what really speaks to me is the number of gears that are beginning to turn.
It's difficult as a regular Steam user to get that distinction right, though, because the interface is completely non-transparent about which games have DRM and which don't. You cannot filter the list of available games by "DRM-free only" and choose to vote with your dollars for those. And the majority of games do have DRM (either third-party or Steamworks), so buying blindly is unlikely to get you a DRM-free title. That's a difference with GOG, because there you can know what you're buying is DRM-free.
There are some third-party sites that are attempting to compile the consumer information that Steam doesn't want to give you, but it's a bit hit-or-miss, and most Steam users don't know about such lists.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
You mad bro?
You are a moron. Yes, the steam client is required to download a game from steam - the steam client is not DRM. It is a program that allows you to manage your steam account to buy games, launch them, etc. Once you have downloaded a non-DRM game through the client, you can launch it however you like, move it to another folder. etc. etc.
Your definition of DRM seems a bit off: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_rights_management
http://soylentnews.org/~tibman
Many companies try to get you to install their Download Manager. Valve is not unique in this.
Good-bye
Rin, is that you?
Almost a decade late, and now we may finally be approaching YotLD.
And it is spearheaded by a company that is built around DRM.
Easy to swallow DRM, but DRM all the same.
The irony is palpable.
The steam client isn't just a download manager though. It is a messenger, includes functionality to scan your system and includes a store interface as well as a pile of other crap. If it was just another download manager it would be irritating but partly acceptable. Instead it is an unstable, intrusive pile of shit that they have jammed so much into that it is offensive.
I fail to see how I'm perpetuating "the confusion". Please enlighten me how explaining that Steam is a distribution platform that offers both games with and without DRM causes confusion. Furthermore, explain to me how are you tied to Valve any more than you are tied to say your CD or that CD-Key you mustn't lose if you want to reinstall your game (in the case of games with DRM), or GOG for re-download (in the case of DRM-free games), which you don't need at all unless you failed to back up the installer?
Furthermore, tell me how you lose any power to run the software you've purchased if you only buy DRM-free games (even if it is from steam, since it is, after all, just a store and distribution service)? Because you will obviously lose power if you buy games with DRM, no matter where you buy them... or how, for that matter.
I don't care if I'm wrong. I only care about everyone obtaining something from the discussion.
Sorry, but that is rubbish. Remember how they changed TOS? Surprise! If you do not accept new TOS, all your library of games on Steam, DRM or not, is forfeit. I actually wrote them email and asked, and that's what they said in reply - that you need to accept new TOS or you can't play.
So pray that they do not alter the terms of your agreement. And while you're at it, pray also that Gabe does not sell the company or is not hit by the bus.
Fanboys are always blind, be it Apple fanboys or linux fanboys or Steam fanboys.
Valve could probably improve Steam in that way... I don't think, however, most Steam users are the type to care much about that. And those that DO care probably will enjoy the experience from other stores like GOG and Humble bundle (I don't think they are selling games with DRM in their store, although the occasional bundles does have DRM, and they are clearly labeled as such). Of course, there is the matter that some people may not care because they don't know, and it'd be nice if Steam mentioned/allowed filtering of DRM-free games to at least catch the eye, but I don't blame for not having it.
I don't care if I'm wrong. I only care about everyone obtaining something from the discussion.
Sure, as long as you make sure to provide the buyer with the original media.
Sorry but that's no longer true as it's Fuck Yes!
Mod me up/Mod me down: I wont frown as I've no crown
I wonder... How can you agree with a new TOS if you never open the steam client. The way I see it is: if you don't accept the TOS, you lose access to their services (store and distribution, login servers, etc) which results in games with DRM failing to load since they wouldn't verify since you are not logged in (if you are, then you accepted the TOS, right?). Thus, in the case of a game without DRM, they would provide Store and Distribution services. I doubt (IANAL, should check with one) they had the (legal) power to stop you from using games that don't rely on their services beyond store/distribution. AFAIK, when you buy the game you accept the EULA, which is basically a contract between you and the IP holder for that game (which isn't steam/valve, unless Valve games). When you accept TOS of Valve, what you get access is to the Store and Distribution. I don't think (but again, IANAL) that they can break the second contract you made with the company (which allows you to use the game). Thus, you lose access to their services but not DRM-free games. At least the way they interpret it.
If it is the way you say... (which may not be. Posting AC + no proof + internet? Can I have the salt, please?), then it is not good.
I don't care if I'm wrong. I only care about everyone obtaining something from the discussion.
Stop moving the goalposts when you're losing an argument, it just makes you look bad - you asked for "to use" not, "to install". Or tell us how you preformed media-less installs back in the days when all games were drm free.
The "nooo" didn't give it away? I need to work on writing better. Yes, exactly. Anybody who thought like that would probably be an ass. In my (and your) view, at least. Which is why I find it completely okay. A minor... inconvenience, if you may, for access to the rest of the services each provide.
I don't care if I'm wrong. I only care about everyone obtaining something from the discussion.
I don't think he is moving the goalposts. I think like many people he doesn't want to install the abomination that is the steam client just so he can download something.
As I recently discovered. Got an Xmas gift of Civ5 and found out it needed the steam client to be installed even though I don't care for online/multiplayer. God damn client puked, system BSOD's and then I couldn't install critical updates nor take the fucking client out (no restore point created) so I had to nuke it and take 48 hours to get all of the fucking Windows updates before installing the rest of my software.
I dislike Steam and Valve with a passion after that plus I don't like ads or having software demand my network connection be active all the time just to play an off-line game. Hell I'm not a gamer and haven't bought anything new in a decade so Steam and Valve are as usefull as gold handles on my gold fish.
Mod me up/Mod me down: I wont frown as I've no crown
because if you purchase a game on steam and they decide to change the TOS, the next time you go into steam you either accept the new TOS or you lose access to your ENTIRE library.
(never mind that GOG also requires you to log in for first download, and they get praised as DRM-free).
Eh? I can run the installers without logging in.
Are you saying that you think DRM should be classified as needing to be logged in to download it after your purchase? How else would you get the installer?
> OpenGL debugging has always lagged behind DirectX No, it hasn't.
Max.
The store page actually does tell you whether they have third party DRM and if so what they use. One example I know of is if you check BioShock (the first one) the store page says it has SecuROM. Though it's true that they don't appear to list whether it has their own DRM and as far as I know there's no way to filter by DRM.
What site do the breeders use then? espn.com?
"The tracer's internal binary log format can be converted into JSON for use with other tools as well."
Can we have it in a useful format as well? Something compatible with grep and awk maybe.
I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
The difference with GOG is that with Steam games -- even those that don't use Steamworks -- you need to use Steam AND have a working Internet connection to install the game, so you are not truly separated from Valve's ecosystem. With GOG, you can download all the games you own, back them up to a portable hard drive, and then you can play all the games regardless of your Internet connectivity or GOG's continued existence, even if you change or wipe your computer. With Steam, you can only play these "DRM-free" games until you next need to re-install them for whatever reason.
Back in, say, 2000--2004, a game that needed the Internet to phone home during installation (but not every time you play the game) would have been considered an unacceptably intrusive form of DRM by some. It's funny how the public perception of DRM has changed so much that phone-home-on-install is no longer considered to be DRM at all. Well, it still is, because it's a server that controls your ability to use a product you have already paid for. Granted, it's relatively mild DRM, but it's still DRM.
I suppose that once you install a non-Steamworks game, you could manually grab the files and zip them up and archive them, but Steam doesn't make it easy. If you had, for example, used Steam's "back up game" feature, you would find that it requires a phone-home to restore the backup. In addition, Steam doesn't make it easy to play these non-Steamworks games without using Steam. All the Start Menu and Desktop shortcuts launch Steam with a particular game ID, not the game .exe directly, so using these shortcuts either requires that you are signed in to Steam, or have explicitly put Steam into offline mode. It's actually quite difficult for the average user to figure out how to run these so-called "DRM-free" games without Steam. So yes, GOG.com is absolutely more entitled to be praised as offering DRM-free games.
How about also building a decent general purpose debugger? GDB is a pile of shit, so folks resort to just stuffing their program full of printfs() and examining the output. I'd pay good money for a state of the art debugger that works on Linux.
http://www.derpibooru.org/
Go there, create an account, change your filter settings and enjoy.
Third party DRM has actually been removed from both BioShock 1 and 2. The information on the store page is therefore outdated.
Specifically that's a shader debugger, although still useful.
I wonder how open Steam would be to improvement on that front. Steam could certainly improve (for a certain measure of improving, anyway) when it comes to DRM-free games. Something as simple as allowing you to browse the store for DRM-free games would be an improvement. Providing an installer or perhaps making the backup feature not requiring an internet connection when dealing with DRM-free games would be nice too (like GOG.com's installer!). OTOH I also understand what kind of service Steam is offering vs GOG.com (you are right, they did change their name to GOG.com), with one wanting to be more of a platform where you can have a social experience as an integral part, while the later just wants to sell you a game and let you enjoy it (you can socialize in the forums/other parts, but that's not part of what they are really selling, is it?) and that's it.
I don't care if I'm wrong. I only care about everyone obtaining something from the discussion.
The kind of user who can't work out how to zip their DRM-free game files from the Steam folder and setup new shortcuts, isn't the type of user who cares about having to install Steam to re-download a game.
I actually wonder why GOG doesn't improve their downloader app into a full Steam competitor, which automatically downloads, installs and keeps your games up to date. It wouldn't imply adding DRM -- you could still download the stand-alone .exe installers, and the GOG client could have a "save as .exe" button. Because as it stands, I have to keep making this trade-off between properly DRM-free games (GOG, and Humble Store for that matter, which is also nice in that it supports Linux) and the convenience of having a one-click download/install and always-up-to-date experience (Steam).
Err, what? GOG distributes only Windows and OS X games.
"Valve's Linux initiatives are making game companies to think about OpenGL,"
Unless Valve is making companies, this "to" should be omitted. Either that, or "making" could be switched to "forcing". Yeah, kinda OCD, I know, but we need to save the English language from the Internet! :|