Slashdot Mirror

← Back to Stories (view on slashdot.org)

Celebrating Dungeons & Dragons' 40th Anniversary

Posted by samzenpus on from the roll-a-d20 dept.

disconj writes "With the 40th anniversary of the release of Dungeons & Dragons coming up this weekend, the Internet is ablaze with reflections on its legacy. Dave Ewalt gives an intro for the uninitiated. Ethan Gilsdorf explains how 'all I need to know about life I learned from Dungeons & Dragons'. Finally, Jon Peterson presents a video show-and-tell of rare artifacts from D&D's development." The real question is how many characters have you lost in Tomb of Horrors?

30 of 218 comments (clear)

  1. Roll 1D20 .... by cold+fjord · · Score: 4, Funny

    You fail your morale check and can't post this round.

    --
    much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
  2. Tried playing this game by rolfwind · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Got bogged down by the rules.

    I always had a lot more fun as a kid playing pretend games (when kids still played those instead of video games) than RPGs with a lot of rules. I think the amount of books and their expense just killed it. Tried several RPGing systems since, BESM and the like.

    I learned that I like it a lot better when a computer takes care of all the details.

    1. Re:Tried playing this game by msevior · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Clear rules are what makes a good game. It's really frustrating to play a game where "you make it up as you go along" :-)

      D&D was awesome as a 20-year-old and its far more fun having people rather then computers to interact with.

    2. Re:Tried playing this game by DrFalkyn · · Score: 5, Informative

      D&D was all about the DM ... if you have a good one, it was a blast, if you had a bad one it was snore. The rules were really only there as a guide, a good DM would learn to ignore a bad dice role (and, occassionally ignore a good one :-) ) .. thats what those screens were for :-)

    3. Re:Tried playing this game by gman003 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      As an avid video gamer who's gotten into tabletop gaming, I've found they both have their strengths.

      Computers work well for rigidly-defined rules, particularly for stuff like combat. If all you're doing is slaying orcs and such, computers can do a lot of it better.

      Tabletop gaming works for less well-defined systems. No game has really, *really* gotten diplomacy right - it comes down to figuring out the right choices to make in a few menus. And clever players will be able to work better in a tabletop RPG - things that totally would work in the real world, but the official rules don't have anything for. With video games, maybe you can find a mod to add a button to let you do something, but with a tabletop game and a decent GM, you'll be able to create "rules" on the fly to handle it.

      Example:
      My players were fighting a dragon, and managed to wound it enough that it would (logically) retreat rather than keep fighting. He took off, they all fired off ranged attacks while he flew off, except for one. She threw her grappling hook at it, which there aren't specific rules for so I treated it as a ranged touch attack. Success. She tried to climb it (which there is a set of rules for), failed, and then failed an opposed strength check from the dragon trying to shake her off (I improvised the check being necessary, but used the general rule for "two people doing something against each other involving muscle").

      I've gotten to the point now where I don't even try to plan things step-by-step, I just invent a scenario and let my players figure out the best solution. For another example:
      In the aftermath of the last quest, two of the three players ended up in jail (on charges of public indecency/intoxication and high treason/negligent regicide, respectively). The last had to break them out. All I had planned was what sort of cells and protection each was under, as well as the idea that they would be taken eventually to the court to be judged and they could possibly be rescued in transit. They figured out how to get one out beforehand by bending the bars of the window enough for him to slip through. They then set up a detailed plan to rescue the last guy in transit, having one person in disguise as a guard to disable the guards with drugged treats, with the other standing by on the rooftops to Errol Flynn his way in if combat broke out. Meanwhile, the imprisoned guy was taunting his captors, trying to goad them into dragging him out of his cage to engage in some police brutality (both as a distraction, and to get out of some of his restraints). Their stealth approach failed, but they managed to fight their way through it with the element of surprise. The game starts up again tomorrow with them on the run in the immediate aftermath, and I have absolutely no idea how they're going to get out of this, but I'm sure they'll come up with something.

      As a guy who both studied game design and is working on a video game, and as a guy running two Pathfinder* campaigns, both have their unique strengths. A paper RPG that has too many rules *is* doing something wrong, but that's a fault of the specific game, not tabletop RPGs in general. And I think it may have been a historic thing - since I'm far from the first to realize the strengths of the two, tabletop RPGs have mostly gotten simpler and more streamlined since the early days, and having massive multi-volume rulebooks is no longer considered a good thing.

      * Pathfinder is basically D&D 3.75. Like with any nerddom, major changes piss off users, so a company (actually the magazine publishing arm of WotC, which was spun off shortly before D&D 4.0) took advantage of the open-sourcing of D&D 3.5 to fork it and make a new game that's basically 3.5 with some simplifications and a new trademark, rather than the major upheaval that is 4.0. I like it because it's just complex enough to be interesting, and it's also like 75% cheaper (you can get into it with just the Beginner Box for $30 or so, and the only book you absolutely need for the full game

    4. Re:Tried playing this game by nedlohs · · Score: 3, Insightful

      1. It is fun with a weak character relative to everyone else.
      2. Failure is as fun as success - notice that almost all old school D&D players have a favorite story to tell in which usually a character if not the entire party dies.
      3. Fudging dice rolls is unnecessary. Yes some DMs want a softer game and so do that - which I guess is fine if that's the game you want to play. There's no need to, just don't get attached to that character...

    5. Re:Tried playing this game by VortexCortex · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Clear rules are what makes a good game. It's really frustrating to play a game where "you make it up as you go along" :-)

      This is an anecdotal statement, and I disagree vehemently. The rules only help the GM make a game good. I shall counter with my own anecdote: In my youth I played a wide variety of RPGs in a nearly daily group of about 10 friends, we'd hit up someone's house after school, and summer time was 3 months of non stop RPG building, story crafting, and playing. We had some games that lasted for years, and developed a set of "house rules" for running games. In our experience Role Playing games are far more fun when the Game Master (read: DM) is used as a story teller and the rules are largely set aside to let us focus on the game play, i.e. let us use the available skills and world crafting and thinking in-character on the fly instead of hampering creativity and bogging down battles. If a plausible explanation could be made, we rolled with it -- or rather didn't roll for anything at all. Rules of the game were used to settle disputes between the players and GM, and the GM applied the player's actions to the world according to a general understanding of the character. Anyone could challenge an event to trial by dice, and that's really the only role the strict rules played well. In fact, when the new editions of AD&D came out we just used the settings and monsters, etc., screw all those bullshit rules. GURPS was better for combating power creep anyway (and let us throw in time traveling cyborgs, or characters from other campaigns etc. from time to time).

      In fact, some games like In Nomine, embraced this type of game-play where rules take a back seat explicitly. It had a simplistic dice mechanic that called for a degree of interpretation and yielded far more frequent spectacular successes and failures. [2D6 to beat a target number for a skill / ability, blow karma points to lower the target, 1D6 is severity of success or failure, 1,1,1 = Divine intervention. 6,6,6 = Satan smiles upon you -- Either is good or bad depending on who you're working for.] The dice in this use were like an aide to the story teller and players -- To smooth disputes, and let chaos nudge the course while allowing a player's desire to win a dice roll actually influence its outcome somewhat. E.g., A player spends two karma points to really end his foe, and insists on rolling to ensure the GM doesn't tamper with fate:

      You rare back and throw every fiber of your angelic form into the punch, nearly tearing the tendons of your corporeal vessel. The blow destroys the treacherous demon's skull will a loud crunch. As the vermin's soul escapes back to hell you catch a fleeting whiff of brimstone and realize that in the scuffle your own flaming sword of valor has set your hair afire. The voice of the Dark Prince himself booms from everywhere and nowhere, "Consider the hair cut a gift for saving me the trouble of finding that fiendish failure. Yes, the diabolical look does suit you..." The 666 roll doesn't have to be terribly bad for the good guys, it can just add character and mood, or it can enhance the plot -- for instance, if the angel falls. The flexible rules allow success and failure to be far more nuanced and malleable to both players and story tellers. A good Game Master uses the rules to make the game more fun, and a good rule set lets them do so. It's why we play after all.

      D&D was awesome as a 20-year-old and its far more fun having people rather then computers to interact with.

      Then why the hell would you apply strict rules to make humans emulate computers? All the speed and determinism of a human calculator trying to apply complex rule based programs with all the frustration of interfacing with a dumb computer running glitchy logic and neither knows nor cares about what 'fun' is. You picked the worst spot in the venn diagram ever. Creative people make the classic RPGs fun, not the boring rules.

    6. Re:Tried playing this game by Vintermann · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The dice are there to force you out of your prior expectations, and keep you from going down the same old paths.

      This was one of the central messages of Kirk Botula's "Complete book of Villains", IMHO one of the most underestimated RPG accessories of all time. Many bestselling fiction writers would have been better for reading that book.

      If you tell a person "make up a hero", or "make up a villain", he might make up an original one - once or twice. Then odds are they'll start to resemble each other, and display lack of interesting diversity. Botula's advice was to use die rolls, and try to make sense of them. So your villain has high intelligence but low wisdom. How can we interpret that?

      Or you could roll for a villain's motives. Wealth? Power? The need to feel loved? Or even the need to be seen as the good guy?

      And as always, of course, not slavishly follow the die rolls. If every villain is super-complex, you get a soap opera. Some combinations just don't make sense (or, at least, you're going to get a really weird world if you always try to force them to make sense.)

      Basically, you use randomness to resist your own biases and predictability, and push the limits of your creativity and imagination.

      --
      xkcd is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
    7. Re:Tried playing this game by Mashdar · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Hell, as a DM I even lied about rolls with some frequency. Players rolled their own attacks for the excitement of it, but many of the various environmental checks and more bizzare actions taken by players were rolled behind a screen. (Along with many "fake" rolls to prevent metagaming.) Sometimes the lie was just more fun than the actual roll. :)

  3. Q: How many characters lost in Tomb of Horrors? by xymog · · Score: 5, Funny

    A: All of them!

  4. Recall how it was going to turn us into Satanists? by sandbagger · · Score: 5, Informative

    Adults in the 60s, 70s and 80s were smoking cigarettes and drinking alcohol, getting high on grass and coke before they had kids and now were suddenly worried about everyone's grip on reality.

    I was probably more obsessive about Star Fleet Battles than D&D but for some reason fears over D&D caught the wind. Why? Sci-Fi nerds were supposed to appreciate science but not people who were obsessed with dragons. Weird.

    --
    ---- The above post was generated by the Turing Institute. Maybe.
  5. Re:Rogue by SQLGuru · · Score: 4, Funny

    Who? My faithful dog WandTester? He was awesome.....at least until I found a Wand of Death.

  6. A couple things I learned by Krishnoid · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The concept that alignment describes behavior along multiple axes and how the differences between wisdom and intelligence are explicitly called out, are a couple things that shaped my perspective on the world.

  7. Re:When?! by dreamchaser · · Score: 3, Informative

    Thankfully it's also a myth. It never stopped me at least. I haven't played in years now except occasionally, but from about '76 through '86 it was one of my favorite non-sport pastimes, and it never got in the way of getting girls :)

    I guess YMMV.

  8. Re:When?! by aevan · · Score: 4, Informative

    Considering we had several girl gamers in our groups, and several married that spat out kids over the years we gamed...
    *shrug* but sorry, you were on a non-fact rant, apologises for interrupting you with some.

  9. Ah yes, the good ol' days of D & D... by SpankiMonki · · Score: 4, Interesting

    ...when disaffected nerdy kids could lock themselves away to play for hours and hours and hours without fear of getting sent to Chinese rehabs.

    Of course, players back then had to worry about being burned at the stake.

  10. Pathfinder by SteveFoerster · · Score: 3, Informative

    That's why my group uses Pathfinder, a fork of third edition D&D that is still supported and thriving. And all your third edition supplements are compatible.

    --
    Space game using normal deck of cards: http://BattleCards.org
  11. Re:Recall how it was going to turn us into Satanis by SteveFoerster · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Meanwhile, I played as a kid, and now I play with my kids. It's actually a convenient parenting tool, because you can let them perish from the consequences of their poor decisions without being arrested for child neglect.

    --
    Space game using normal deck of cards: http://BattleCards.org
  12. Re:Roll... by gman003 · · Score: 4, Funny

    And this, ladies and gentlemen, is what a human of intelligence 4 looks like.

  13. D&D Anecdotes by LordLucless · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Well, this seems to be the place for sharing anecdotes (which, I think, is the big pull of D&D - the ability to create shared moments that you can look back on, talk about, and laugh at).

    There was the time the party was sneaking in to a goblin warren. The rogue volunteered to try and scout out the entryway, and slipped in. Sure enough, there were two goblins on watch. When spotted, he managed to kill both goblins before they raised the alarm. After this impressive feat of martial prowess (and lucky dice), he signalled the rest of the party that the way was clear by blowing his signal whistle (which the player had included on his sheet, and was looking for a reason to use), thereby alerting the whole warren who promptly swarmed out and mobbed him. After the party had rescued him, and beaten back the goblins, the paladin smashed his signal whistle.

    Then there was the time the ranger decided to try and activate the mystic weapon-orb at the top of a tower under siege by the undead, because the party's wizard was being too slow and cautious. It activated, destroying the undead, but also blew the ranger off the top of the tower. He had the ability to reduce falling damage though, and survived the fall. Running up the tower to meet his companions, he forgot about the flame trap the party had avoided earlier, and got scorched into the bargain. Finally he stumbled out onto the towers roof, interrupting the party leader's impassioned eulogy.

    --
    Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    1. Re:D&D Anecdotes by meerling · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Here's one for you. The party had decided that the Merchant was actually a thief (now known as rogue) and tried to force him to open a chest in an empty room. He figured it was a big obvious trap, and refused, also taking offense to being called a thief. They responded by putting a crossbow to his head (and other weapons pointed at other body parts) and forced him to open the chest.
      So he wouldn't try something, and so they'd be there to grab the loot, they went in the room as well. To avoid getting caught in the trap that must be on the chest, they were all 15' back.
      The merchant wasn't very happy about that. Seeing no other options that included possible survival, he unlocked and opened the chest.
      At this point, the entire floor of the room, except for the chest, and the tiny area in front of it collapsed into a very deep pit trap. All of the party except for the merchant were seriously injured by this.
      Taking advantage of the situation, the merchant spotted a handful of large gems in the chest on top of the coinage, which he promptly pocketed before yelling down to see if the party survived.

      Now you might think the GM was pulling a fast one to punish a party that turned on one of their own for loot and broke their vow to not harm one another. Well, we all pretty much thought that, including the player of the merchant. So we called the GM on it. He laughed and pulled out his map of that small area, and pointed out the room, and the trap notations. He didn't fudge a single thing. That's exactly how that trap was supposed to work.
      The GM thought this was hilarious. After seeing that the GM didn't pull a fast one of his own, the merchant player did to.
      On top of that, his character ended up with more valuables than the rest of the party did combined on that little delve, and he couldn't have done it if they'd have just trusted him. (Actually he wouldn't have even tried to steal those gems, except for the threats to his life. They convinced him that he needed some just compensation for their blackmail and attempts to kill him.)

  14. Re:Never understood it by meerling · · Score: 3, Informative

    Gaming isn't for everyone. No big deal. If you don't like a form of entertainment, nobody really cares.
    It's like football, or opera, or country music, or chocolate, so many other things. You like it, or you don't. It's just the way it goes.

    Unless of course you happen to be one of those ignorant douche-bags that rag on hobbies you don't understand or don't like.
    If that's the case, then I'll just point out that I've made a number of those types miserable and horribly embarrassed in front of their peers and have no regrets for the divine retribution they were slammed with. It's rather easy to do with that type, and their 'friends' tend to be the ones to thoroughly enjoy watching it happen.

  15. Re:When?! by dcollins · · Score: 3, Insightful

    http://dndwithpornstars.blogspot.com

    --
    We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
  16. Re:Recall how it was going to turn us into Satanis by bob_super · · Score: 4, Interesting

    You may have forgotten how the first edition did have spec for all the major devils and demons.
    That's what freaked out short-sighted people. To them, it wasn't about how you were going to kick demon/devil butt, as much as the horror of seeing kids throwing scary names around.

    When Harry Potter came out, an otherwise very smart engineer, who spent too much time in church, told me that they had a discussion about the books and their influence on children. They had a witchcraft specialist (I think he said a witch) comment on how the spells JKR wrote down were too close to the real magic and children shouldn't be familiar with them or run around casting them at each other.
    I honestly wish I was making this up.

    So yeah, the bad rep of the game was because some people get scared at the mere mention of some dark elements of their religious mythos.

  17. Party Time! by laejoh · · Score: 5, Funny

    I put on my robe and wizard's hat!

  18. In celebration... by Loki_1929 · · Score: 4, Funny

    bloodninja: Baby, I been havin a tough night so treat me nice aight?
    BritneySpears14: Aight.
    bloodninja: Slip out of those pants baby, yeah.
    BritneySpears14: I slip out of my pants, just for you, bloodninja.
    bloodninja: Oh yeah, aight. Aight, I put on my robe and wizard hat.
    BritneySpears14: Oh, I like to play dress up.
    bloodninja: Me too baby.
    BritneySpears14: I kiss you softly on your chest.
    bloodninja: I cast Lvl. 3 Eroticism. You turn into a real beautiful woman.
    BritneySpears14: Hey...
    bloodninja: I meditate to regain my mana, before casting Lvl. 8 chicken of the Infinite.
    BritneySpears14: Funny I still don't see it.
    bloodninja: I spend my mana reserves to cast Mighty F*ck of the Beyondness.
    BritneySpears14: You are the worst cyber partner ever. This is ridiculous.
    bloodninja: Don't f*ck with me bitch, I'm the mightiest sorcerer of the lands.
    bloodninja: I steal yo soul and cast Lightning Lvl. 1,000,000 Your body explodes into a fine bloody mist, because you are only a Lvl. 2 Druid.
    BritneySpears14: Don't ever message me again you piece of ****.
    bloodninja: Robots are trying to drill my brain but my lightning shield inflicts DOA attack, leaving the robots as flaming piles of metal.
    bloodninja: King Arthur congratulates me for destroying Dr. Robotnik's evil army of Robot Socialist Republics. The cold war ends. Reagan steals my accomplishments and makes like it was cause of him.
    bloodninja: You still there baby? I think it's getting hard now.
    bloodninja: Baby?
    --------------
    BritneySpears14: Ok, are you ready?
    eminemBNJA: Aight, yeah I'm ready.
    BritneySpears14: I like your music Em... Tee hee.
    eminemBNJA: huh huh, yeah, I make it for the ladies.
    BritneySpears14: Mmm, we like it a lot. Let me show you.
    BritneySpears14: I take off your pants, slowly, and massage your muscular physique.
    eminemBNJA: Oh I like that Baby. I put on my robe and wizard hat.
    BritneySpears14: What the f*ck, I told you not to message me again.
    eminemBNJA: Oh ****
    BritneySpears14: I swear if you do it one more time I'm gonna report your ISP and say you were sending me kiddie porn you f*ck up.
    eminemBNJA: Oh ****
    eminemBNJA: damn I gotta write down your names or something

    --
    -- "Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
  19. Re:Irritated Dungeon Master by VortexCortex · · Score: 4, Insightful

    DM: What class is your character?

    Noob: Vulcan! Spock is wicked cool.

    Irritated? Dungeon Master, heh, yeah. What a bore. A Game Master would be Overjoyed. Halflings and Wizards can work with Spock, (hell, he'd be mistaken for an Elf in Shadowrun), and in games like Rifts, or super-rule-sets like GURPS, the more worlds collide the better!

    You'd actually be irritated instead of imagining a Star Trek 'away team' going off course on The Voyage Home and winding up amidst There and Back Again? You can't fathom the fun of Starfleet's finest crash landing on Bag End, and being guilt tripped into helping Gandalf take back the Lonely Mountain from a dragon that's been conspiring with dimensional shamblers to bring an evil cyBorg race to Middle Earth?

    Closed minds are the biggest reason the medium is in such a state.

  20. Re:When?! by Thanshin · · Score: 3, Funny

    I banged Magnys Carter the Barmaid/Whore in the ass, [...] Then you were born. I am your father.

    You seem to have a fundamental misconception about certain key points on human reproduction. Or elementary anatomy. Or both.

  21. Re:Recall how it was going to turn us into Satanis by Nyder · · Score: 4, Funny

    You may have forgotten how the first edition did have spec for all the major devils and demons.
    That's what freaked out short-sighted people. To them, it wasn't about how you were going to kick demon/devil butt, as much as the horror of seeing kids throwing scary names around.

    When Harry Potter came out, an otherwise very smart engineer, who spent too much time in church, told me that they had a discussion about the books and their influence on children. They had a witchcraft specialist (I think he said a witch) comment on how the spells JKR wrote down were too close to the real magic and children shouldn't be familiar with them or run around casting them at each other.
    I honestly wish I was making this up.

    So yeah, the bad rep of the game was because some people get scared at the mere mention of some dark elements of their religious mythos.

    Ya, I was given a D&D set when I was like 13 back in the 80's and got it taken away when the church told my parents it was "of the devil".

    Oddly enough, a couple years later I got a nice new wave hair cut with a tail, and my step mom cut off the tail because it was "of the devil".

    I like this devil dude, he sounds like my kind of guy.

    --
    Be seeing you...
  22. Re:When?! by Saint+Fnordius · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Yeah, you're better off playing Illuminati or GURPS or Car Wars or Traveller or Warhammer or any of the other games. 1st Edition AD&D was just my gateway drug.