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US Supreme Court: Patent Holders Must Prove Infringment

jfruh writes "The Supreme Court issued a ruling that might help marginally curb patent madness. Ruling on a case between Medtronic and Mirowski Family Ventures, the court rules that the burden of proof in patent infringement cases is always on the patent holder. This is true even in the specific case at hand, in which Medtronic sought a declaratory judgement that it was not violating the Mirowski patents."

34 of 143 comments (clear)

  1. Now the next step... by Moryath · · Score: 5, Interesting

    placing the burden on the patent holder to prove the patent is NOT the result of:

    - Patent slamming to game the system (e.g. submitting the same fucking thing 100 different times hoping one submission will slip by an overworked patent reviewer)
    - Patenting something already patented
    - Patenting something that is already obvious
    - Submarine-patenting

    1. Re:Now the next step... by manquer · · Score: 4, Interesting

      (e.g. submitting the same fucking thing 100 different times hoping one submission will slip by an overworked patent reviewer)

      I am not a fan of the current patenting system, but this is BS, a patent application costs $10,000, if the patent reviewer is overworked it has nothing to do with the abuse of the system, even considering a cost of $200,000 to the USPTO per patent reviewer including all the overheads a reviewer has to only review 20 patents a year to make the system viable.

    2. Re:Now the next step... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      I am not a fan of the current patenting system, but this is BS, a patent application costs $10,000

      LOL...if someone is charging you $10K to file it for you, then you are getting ripped off.

      http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/ac/qs/ope/fee010114.htm

    3. Re:Now the next step... by SQLGuru · · Score: 2

      I'd also like software patents to have a working implementation which is what's actually covered by the patent.....much like physical patents. If I patent "sorting" (and yes, many software patents are that vague), it doesn't allow for bubble sort, selection sort, insert sort, quicksort, etc.

    4. Re:Now the next step... by sjames · · Score: 2

      There is no $200,000 involved. They just keep resubmitting revised applications with trivial changes over and over on the same $10K fee.

    5. Re:Now the next step... by iamgnat · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I'll be the contrarian here and state the belief that this ruling isn't so good.

      The major issue, of course, is that there is massive abuse to the system, but if you look at what the system is supposed to do I think this ruling turns things more decidedly in the favor of large companies.

      The idea of the patent system was that anyone could patent their grand idea and then have legal backing to protect it in court from someone that uses the idea without consent. The filing fees were also designed to be low to keep the barrier of entry low enough that "the little guy" could get the same protection as the big corporations.

      Prior to this ruling (ignoring the shake downs by trolls) an individual or small company had a chance of winning a patent case against much larger entities (motions and legal wrangling aside) as the process of discovery forces the defendant to show their cards and prove they aren't infringing with no upfront cost to the plaintiff.

      With this ruling, if you come up with the next great search algorithm (software patent absurdity aside) and Bing/Google/Yahoo steals it you now have to foot the bill for the discovery. Without the court order you also aren't going to get very far in that process as they aren't exactly going to welcome you into their office, sit you down at a console, and give you access to their code.

      So what this ruling does, in my opinion, is give the larger companies the right to violate patents from smaller entities with near impunity. It also (as someone suggested further down regarding OSS projects) gives rise to a whole new possible "reverse-patent" trolling business scheme.

      Basically this ruling, I think, has made things worse.

    6. Re:Now the next step... by Sarten-X · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Physical patents do not require a working implementation, and haven't in quite some time. Rather, they only require enough detail that someone skilled in the art could create a working implementation of what's claimed using only common knowledge and the patent itself.

      For software, that means that if you're claiming a particular sorting algorithm, you have to include enough details about how that algorithm works that another programmer could duplicate the sort... but if you're not patenting the comparison operation, you don't have to include that, even if your algorithm requires some particular comparison to work. That's a trade secret.

      Also note that the title and abstract really don't matter. Most of the "vague" patents reported on Slashdot and other anti-patent sites have vague titles, but the claimse themselves are usually pretty detailed about the specific situation where the method applies.

      Continuing the analogy, a method for sorting 3D models might have a title of "Comparative sorting method", and an abstract that describes the need for sorting, both of which are sure to annoy Slashdotters. The patent claims could then detail a particular way of framing the problem, where we sort models based on their ratio.of filled-to-empty space, with a weighted preference for the appearance of space from particular projections. The algorithm itself might appear at first glance to be, say, a quick-sort, but with a few little tweaks to accommodate the multiple sorting criteria. As above, the actual method for computing filled space may be a secret that's left out of the patent, even though the patented mechanism is really useless without it. The end result is a patent that looks like "quick sort... now in 3-D!" but really describes a useful, novel, and non-obvious solution for a very specific problem.

      --
      You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
    7. Re:Now the next step... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If there is any federal agency paying any employee anything close to minimum wage, I'd like to see it.

    8. Re:Now the next step... by viperidaenz · · Score: 3, Informative

      Without the court order you also aren't going to get very far in that process as they aren't exactly going to welcome you into their office, sit you down at a console, and give you access to their code.

      That's only really valid for software patents. Since you could just buy one of their widgets and pull it apart.

      If it makes software patents less appealing to file and more costly to pursue and harder to troll, good. They shouldn't be patents in the first place

    9. Re:Now the next step... by TheRealMindChild · · Score: 2

      Presumed innocence doesn't apply in civil law

      --

      "When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
    10. Re:Now the next step... by multimediavt · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I am not a fan of the current patenting system, but this is BS, a patent application costs $10,000

      LOL...if someone is charging you $10K to file it for you, then you are getting ripped off.

      http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/ac/qs/ope/fee010114.htm

      That $10k price is actually not bad, as the due diligence search has to be done first by the patent attorney. Typically, I've seen patents average closer $20k to file. They may also be searching and filing in other countries as well, CYA. So, if he's getting a 10k price he's doing ok. I would not try to self apply if you want the patent to stick. You need a good patent attorney.

    11. Re:Now the next step... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      It took me about 30 seconds to find this using something called "Google":

      http://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/pay-systems/federal-wage-system/

      The Federal Wage System is the pay scale used for low-wage, hourly government workers. I'm not going to do _all_ the work, but the lowest rate I could find--before I got bored--related to FWS is $10.27/hour. (http://www.cpms.osd.mil/Content/AF%20Schedules/survey-sch/045/045R-17Sep2013.html)

      Where I come from that's less than minimum wage. Granted, it's not the federal minimum wage. But there may be other, lower pay scales. Alternatively, maybe nobody is actually paid that $10.27. I dunno. And neither do you. All you have are your myths and prejudices to inform you.

    12. Re:Now the next step... by Moryath · · Score: 2

      But what ACTUALLY happens is that the big companies have their own attorney on staff, whose job it is to robosign "due diligence searches" without bothering to do them.

    13. Re:Now the next step... by Zanothis · · Score: 2

      Physical patents tend to include a great many details about how the systems described work. Even without illustrations, they're sufficiently documented that they actually CAN be constructed from the claims and any other supplemental materials.

      Contrast to most software patents which list some arbitrary "using undisclosed comparison algorithm, verb the noun". The actual verb and noun are irrelevant because there is no way to get past the comparison algorithm. As an example, the patent you describe is completely worthless. With the only innovative part missing, any company creating an application that implements anything remotely resembling "quick sort in 3-D" will be sued into oblivion because the patent is overly broad. The specific method for computing filled space is the only patentable aspect of the invention since quick sort already exists and 3D models already exist. Of course, said method for computing filled space is likely to be math and shouldn't be patentable. Even if your method was not easily expressible as a series of number manipulations, you shouldn't get to claim a patent AND keep the actual innovation a trade secret. That is detrimental to the "Progress of Science...".

  2. Costly discovery? by gstoddart · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I can see this leading to some pretty costly discovery for companies being sued.

    Because it's going to amount to "in order for us to prove you violated our patent, we need you to hand over all of your information so we can find the proof".

    I hope there is a provision for saying "OK, but we're going to charge you $100 million for our time in getting this" -- because otherwise this just allows the patent trolls to cause the people they accuse to incur massive costs which might make settling cheaper.

    You shouldn't be able to make someone bear the cost of you suing them based on something you can't prove without them doing the work for you.

    This reminds me of the SCO lawsuit, where the most they ever found was, what, 7 lines of infringing code which SCO themselves had nicked from AT&T UNIX?

    --
    Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    1. Re:Costly discovery? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      This is EXACTLY the problem right now: filing an infringement claim is trivial, it only requires the plaintiff to assert infringement (not detail it). That currently triggers discovery which is costly for the defendant. Defendants thus settle for less than the cost of discovery. That is the essence of legal blackmail/patent trolling.

      SUPPORT PATENT REFORM IN THE SENATE.

      The markup happens in March. There is a hearing today as well.

      Stay early discovery or require costs to be borne by the plaintiff.
      Permit fee shifting when plaintiff's lose.
      Identify the real party in interest and REQUIRE a bond - shell companies currently do most of the trolling and are judgment proof (have no assets).
      PROTECT END USERS - using an API can get you a patent infringement lawsuit (if the API is alleged to infringe), offering wireless in your cafe gets you sued (because Cisco allegedly infringed on someones patent and you are using their device).

    2. Re:Costly discovery? by Karzz1 · · Score: 3, Informative

      This reminds me of the SCO lawsuit, where the most they ever found was, what, 7 lines of infringing code which SCO themselves had nicked from AT&T UNIX?

      A little off-topic I know, but IBM was never found to have infringed on any code from SCO. SCO tried to *claim* some code that was already licensed under a FLOSS license was the same as their code and thus infringed on their IP. They made a big deal of this to the press forcing them to sign NDA's & "showing them the code".

      --
      Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.
  3. Yawn.... by American+Patent+Guy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    A plaintiff always bears the burden of proof in showing that he is entitled to the relief requested from the court. For patent infringement, that means showing a patent has been infringed.

    The only reason this is in the news is because the appellate court (the CAFC) screwed it up one time, and the Supreme Court had to make a return to sanity.

    1. Re:Yawn.... by tomhath · · Score: 3, Insightful

      RTFA. The Supreme Court ruled that the defendant has the burden of proof in this case

    2. Re:Yawn.... by NoNonAlphaCharsHere · · Score: 2

      That's just because this particular case uses negative logic. Try substituting "libel/slander" for "patent infringer":

      Normal case:
      Plaintiff: "He slandered me!"
      Defendant: "No I didn't!"

      This case:
      Plaintiff: "I didn't slander him!"
      Defendant: "Yes you did!"

      In either case, it seems overwhelmingly logical and obvious that the burden of proof is on the person claiming they were slandered, irrespective of whether they're the plaintiff or defendant.

    3. Re:Yawn.... by Uninvited+Guest · · Score: 4, Informative

      Correct. The long version: The plaintiff in a patent case is usually the patent-holder, who is seeking damages for infringement. In those cases, the patent-holder-plaintiff already had the burden of proof. In this case, the (potentially infringing) plaintiff is seeking protection from patent infringement lawsuits by suing the patent holder, requiring the (patent holder) defendant to prove that the patents are valid and/or that the plaintiff infringes the patents. Normally (and the appeals court found), the plaintiff would have the burden of proof. According to the appellate ruling, the plaintiff (potential infringer, seeking protection) would have to prove that they were not infringing, or prove that the patents were invalid. The Supreme Court reaffirmed the lower court ruling: The patent holder, whether plaintiff or defendant, must prove that the other party (plaintiff or defendant) infringed the patents, and that the patents are valid.

      --
      Sometimes I worry that I'll develop Alzheimer's disease, but no one will notice.
    4. Re:Yawn.... by jbeaupre · · Score: 2

      No, they ruled the patent owner always has the burden of proof. It so happens, that's the defendant. It is the "always" that was the important part of the ruling.

      Until fairly recently, if you licensed a patent, you gave up the right to contest it. That changed, but there was still some grey.

      In this case, the Plaintiff had licensed for one product but wanted a judgement concerning a newer product. The Defendant asserted the burden of proof was on the Plaintiff since they had licensed it and now wanted to contest it. The Supreme Court disagreed: patent owner always has the burden of proof.

      --
      The world is made by those who show up for the job.
  4. Encouraging by rujasu · · Score: 2

    This ruling on its own might only help slightly. But aside from that, I think this kind of 9-0 ruling (!) coming from the U.S. Supreme Court is encouraging for other patent-related cases that the Court will soon be hearing.

  5. DOS Patent Trolls? by luciano.moretti · · Score: 5, Interesting

    How hard would it be for OpenSource Projects and Small Companies to file for a declarative judgement lawsuit for every software patent held by trolls? I'm assuming that filing fees would get cost prohibitive quickly, but would we be able to DOS attack the patent trolls and the courts they use to prove the point?

    1. Re:DOS Patent Trolls? by Todd+Knarr · · Score: 2

      Fairly hard. One of the requirements for asking for a declaratory judgement is that you have to either have been sued or have a reasonable fear of being sued by the patent-holder. If the patent-holder hasn't actually sued anyone yet, it's easy for them to v get DJ actions dismissed. Even if they're sued others but not sued you, traditionally it's been easy for them to argue that you don't have any reason to believe you'll be sued yet (not that that is not a promise not to sue you in the future). In this particular case Medtronic sustained their DJ because Mirowski had already put it in writing that it believed Medtronic infringed the patents, and if they do then the next step if Medtronic didn't agree would be to sue.

  6. Haha wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Cue a million companies queuing up to sue for declaratory judgement in order to force companies to show their cards instead of vague "something you do violates some part of one of our patents pay 20% of your income or be sued" threats.

    1. Re:Haha wow by fast+turtle · · Score: 5, Informative

      Now Google can fight MS in regards to their claims of Patent Infringenment in Android and force them to prove it. If they fail, then MS is going to be out lots of money for the licenses they've charged for.

      --
      Mod me up/Mod me down: I wont frown as I've no crown
  7. Re:Makes sense by tomhath · · Score: 2

    Except in this case the party being sued was the patent holder. They needed to defend their request for royalties. It's odd because normally the plaintiff needs to prove they were damaged rather than the defendant proving that they would be damaged.

  8. Re:Wow... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The summary omits the central issues in the case. Medtronic had previously licensed patents from Mirowski Family Ventures for some of their older devices. Medtronics claimed their new devices didn't use the same methods and therefore decided not to continue to license the patents. The Federal Circuit Court (which is notoriously patent-holder friendly) decided that since Medtronics had previously been a licensee and they were the plaintiffs in the declaratory judgement suit (they had sued pre-emptively to have the court decide that they weren't infringing rather than wait for Mirowski to file suit) the burden was on them to prove that they didn't infringe. The Supreme Court disagreed 9-0 which should make fighting bogus patents slightly easier.

  9. Re:Why wasn't this already required...? by sjames · · Score: 2

    That's because of the nature of the proceeding the ruling covers. This is a case where the (soon to be) defendant hits the (soon to be) plaintiff up for royalties, then starts rattling the saber. Then the plaintiff effectively says "put up or shut up" by taking it to court themselves for a declaratory judgement. It is the defendant who is making the positive assertion of damages in this case, so it i the defendant who has to prove it.

  10. until now. DEFENDANT has to prove by raymorris · · Score: 2

    > if you're suing somebody ... you have to "make your case" so to speak.

    Until now. Now, if you sue an inventor the burden of proof is on the person being sued. The plaintiff is asking that the court proactively rule that nothing they ever did infringes on any of defendant's patents. SCOTUS ruled that the defendant now has the burden of proof, so they have to figure out which product plaintiff is concerned about, which patent it might infringe and how, or else the court rules that none of the products infringes any patents.

    By analogy, it's the same as me petitioning the court to rule that I never stole anything from you. The court agrees, saying that unless you figure out the puzzle and guess what I stole and when, I'll be deemed innocent and you can't come after me later when you realize that your gold watch is missing.

  11. You are misinterpreting this ruling. by pavon · · Score: 5, Informative

    If you sue someone for patent infringement you have always had the burden of proof, even before this ruling. All this ruling is saying is that if you threaten to sue someone, and they go to a judge first asking you to put-up or shut-up, the burden is still on you as the patent holder, same as if you had sued them.

    Secondly, this ruling does nothing to limit the discovery process. As a small inventor suing a big company you still have the same subpoena powers during discovery as you did before.

    In other words, the Supreme Court simply reaffirmed that accused infringers are innocent until proven guilty, regardless of the procedural nuances of how the lawsuit is initiated. None of the concerns you voiced will become worse due to this ruling.

  12. The cost is the lawyer by sjbe · · Score: 3, Interesting

    LOL...if someone is charging you $10K to file it for you, then you are getting ripped off.

    The cost isn't the patent submission fees. The primary cost is the lawyer you'll inevitably have to hire during the process. Getting a patent successfully through is actually more complicated than it might seem at first glance.

    1. Re:The cost is the lawyer by pipedwho · · Score: 2

      More importantly, if you have your own lawyers on your payroll, the cost is negligible. Especially when you consider that those lawyers seemingly only spend 5 minutes on Google doing 'due diligence'. If they spent much longer, then far less obvious/pre-existing patent applications would be made. That, of course, doesn't excuse the patent examiner for rubber stamping it after seemingly spending another 5 minutes Googling the claims.