Edward Snowden Says NSA Engages In Industrial Espionage

A symbiotic relationship by rmdingler · 2014-01-27 01:09 · Score: 5, Insightful

This actually makes perfect sense.

There has existed a perception that large corporate compilers of information reluctantly acquiesced to the full might of national security orders and subpoenas..

What's in it for me? is a sweet, sweet incentivizer, too.

--
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

Ernest Hemingway

Re:A symbiotic relationship by TheRaven64 · 2014-01-27 01:30 · Score: 5, Insightful

It's not normally the same companies. Mostly defence contractors get the benefits, which sort-of makes sense as much of the US military depends on the products from these industries, and so if you squint enough it looks like a national security concern.

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I am TheRaven on Soylent News
Re:A symbiotic relationship by cold+fjord · 2014-01-27 02:31 · Score: 1, Troll

This actually makes perfect sense.
There has existed a perception that large corporate compilers of information reluctantly acquiesced to the full might of national security orders and subpoenas..
What's in it for me? is a sweet, sweet incentivizer, too.
So, did Snowden release any documents as proof? I don't recall seeing any. If the data isn't passed to corporations that wouldn't seem to be very useful.

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much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Re:A symbiotic relationship by cold+fjord · 2014-01-27 03:25 · Score: 1

You have to admit that the civilian market for rail guns, field artillery, and radar jammers is pretty small.

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much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Re:A symbiotic relationship by geminidomino · 2014-01-27 04:00 · Score: 2

Only 'coz we aren't allowed to have 'em.
Re:A symbiotic relationship by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 04:32 · Score: 0

So, did Snowden release any documents as proof? I don't recall seeing any.
Doesn't matter. Extraordinary privileges come with extraordinary price. It's NSA's job to prove themselves innocent because there is no way we can prove them guilty, were they that or not.
Re:A symbiotic relationship by cold+fjord · 2014-01-27 04:48 · Score: 1

Americans can own artillery, it is just both expensive and hard to come by. The license costs also make them expensive to shoot, but it can be done.
Probably sold by now: Bofors L60 40mm Machine Gun for Sale

--
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Re:A symbiotic relationship by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 05:41 · Score: 0

I have no problem with the NSA catching Airbus bribing governments to buy their planes instead of ours.
Re:A symbiotic relationship by Dutchmaan · 2014-01-27 06:56 · Score: 0

What?! I'm not allowed to own a rail gun? This is clearly an infringement on the 2nd amendment! What's next, not allowing citizens to own pieces of artillery!?
Re:A symbiotic relationship by davester666 · 2014-01-27 07:51 · Score: 1

I demand the right to purchase and fire depleted uranium shells for my tank!

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Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
Re:A symbiotic relationship by shutdown+-p+now · 2014-01-27 10:43 · Score: 1

Citizens (and even non-citizens) are allowed to own artillery in US. It's expensive because the market is limited (as no new items can be introduced to it), and you have to get a tax stamp for your "destructive device" (and then separately for every shell). But if you're willing to jump through all the hoops, you can totally own, say, an operational mortar or howitzer with a stash of ammo for it. Here is an example of a privately owned piece being shot, all legal.
Re:A symbiotic relationship by Applehu+Akbar · 2014-01-27 10:54 · Score: 1

Then you've got to visit Arizona.

Outside the range? by Sarten-X · 2014-01-27 01:11 · Score: 1, Funny

Assuming the espionage is purely separate from any military programs, American companies get the ability to build products Americans rely on, rather than having American life be dependent on foreign companies which might not be able or willing to export during World War 3. And somehow that's not a part of national security?

--
You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.

Re:Outside the range? by SirGarlon · 2014-01-27 01:15 · Score: 5, Insightful

If you accept that argument, then all economic activity falls under the umbrella of national security, and the Constitution goes out the window.
Oh, I see what you did there.

--
[Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
Re:Outside the range? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 01:17 · Score: 0

Xi Jinping, is that you?
Also, it would appear that the consumer culture has finally completely taken over if we are willing to use state sponsored stealing from others as long as we get to keep our stuff.
Re:Outside the range? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 01:18 · Score: 0

Yes, i guess causing WW3 is part of national security.
Re:Outside the range? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 01:21 · Score: 0

According to your argument in preparation for World War 3 anything goes? So for reasons of national security the US should secure rare earths in China, oil from the middle east, uranium from Australia, and let us not forget Helium-3 from the moon without regarding what any other nation might think about this.
This is a brilliant strategy. But not for preparing US citizens for WW3 but to create enough tension that it might actually happen...
Re:Outside the range? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 01:28 · Score: 0

Judging by how utterly common foreign made goods are in America, I'd say they're failing if that's truly their goal. I don't think that's what their goal is - I think their goal is to simply benefit the American economy in all trade wherever possible. We know about the NSA's shenanigans with AirBus and the petrol companies in Brazil which lends credence to that.
Re:Outside the range? by Xest · 2014-01-27 01:31 · Score: 5, Interesting

Well that depends, if you got a situation where America is artificially taking work away from other nations by simply stealing their knowledge, product designs and so forth then that might mean those nations become less stable and more likely to want to hurt America when they find out the only reason they're poor and unemployed is because America stole from them.
Not to mention the harm this does for it's ability to partake in international politics, how silly will it look telling China off for manipulating it's currency to it's benefit when America has similarly been artificially propping it's economy up simply by stealing from everyone else? It's a dangerous game as if America wants to get in a race to the bottom it's going to lose hard because countries like India and China will be able to cope with reduced living standards far more than Americans will be able to without rising up and rioting. Those countries also have far less scruples about stealing from the US. You think China will now have any reservations about hacking US companies? It was supposedly doing so before but now it doesn't even need to care if it gets caught as it can just say it's fair play whilst America if it wants to be taken seriously still needs to retain some semblance of decency.
Or in other words, engaging in this sort of subversive manner against foreign states might be exactly the sort of thing that starts World War 3 creating such instability and such threat to the US in the first place.
Re:Outside the range? by AmiMoJo · 2014-01-27 01:34 · Score: 5, Interesting

That's not what the stolen information is used for. It just saves US companies from having to spend money on R&D to develop their own solutions, or helps them win contracts overseas.
Besides which the NSA made sure that American products are compromised by weakening security protocols and not notifying companies about backdoors. Worse still since Snowden was able to gain access to all this information relatively easily it is probably safe to assume that foreign agencies have their own spies collecting it too, so know all about the NSA backdoors and vulnerabilities they discovered.

--
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Re:Outside the range? by Sarten-X · 2014-01-27 01:41 · Score: 2

Cute, but no.
Spying on one uncooperative American company to help a favored American competitor wouldn't really help national security as much. The balance of economic power between nations would be unchanged.
Offhand, I don't know of any section of the Constitution that would be affected here. The Constitution doesn't actually afford any protection for foreign nations, but I'm sure the hordes of wishful thinkers will insist otherwise.

--
You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
Re:Outside the range? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 01:41 · Score: 0

rather than having American life be dependent on foreign companies which might not be able or willing to export during World War 3. And somehow that's not a part of national security?
It certainly is, just like recruiting twelve-year olds into the German army was a part of national security in the death throes of the Third Reich.
If you are down to your last straw and throw all law and restraint overboard, then yes, this is part of "national security" as defined in relation to a "nation" that no longer is defined according to its laws and constitution but by loosely shared desperation.
Is the U.S.A. in this state already, in its final stages before capitulation? If that is so, it would appear that Osama Bin Laden prevailed in his fight and managed to take the U.S. nation down with him.
If not, get the hell rid of the enemies of the U.S. destroying it and its ideals and constitution from inside its government like a jewel wasp zombifying a cockroach by taking over its central nervous system.
Re:Outside the range? by Sarten-X · 2014-01-27 01:43 · Score: 1

Maybe that's why it was supposed to be a secret.

--
You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
Re:Outside the range? by Sarten-X · 2014-01-27 02:10 · Score: 1

It just saves US companies from having to spend money on R&D to develop their own solutions, or helps them win contracts overseas.
...making the American companies more economically powerful, so other countries have more reason to ally with the US, while the US remains more economically independent. That's kinda the point, no?

so know all about the NSA backdoors and vulnerabilities they discovered.
Perhaps they do, but as long as remaining undetected is more important than using the information they have, they can't change their behavior. I seem to recall similar incidents in WWII, where the only way Americans were warned about German movements was through cracked Enigma messages. The Allies couldn't counteract, because that would let the Germans know they had broken the Enigma.

--
You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
Re:Outside the range? by G-forze · 2014-01-27 02:17 · Score: 3, Insightful

Yes. Shooting the messenger is always a good idea.

--
"There's someone in my head but it's not me." - Pink Floyd, Dark Side of the Moon
Re:Outside the range? by cold+fjord · 2014-01-27 02:45 · Score: 1

With the sanctions on Iran being softened, how likely do you think it is that Siemens is them parts that would work in centrifuges? As I recall there were many European firms that helped Saddam in his day.

--
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Re:Outside the range? by Xest · 2014-01-27 03:13 · Score: 1

There were many American firms too. There were also many American firms that helped Iran, it's whole air forces is still equipped with the likes of Tomcats and Phantoms to this day. There were also Russian firms involved too, and Chinese firms.
I'm not really sure what your point is though exactly. That companies are free to do trade with nations not deemed to be under embargo? Why yes! you're right, and all of them do.
Re:Outside the range? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 03:14 · Score: 0

Man, you're a government cheerleader.
Re:Outside the range? by rtb61 · 2014-01-27 03:15 · Score: 3, Interesting

Almost, more accurately it passed from the NSA to select insiders who individually claim the technology and screw profits out of other Americans with stolen patents. Industrial espionage, criminal act and extortion espionage, business insider trading espionage all having nothing at all to make any country safer and everything to do with enriching select political insiders. Should it trigger cyber warfare the only question is will it be profitable for the select few.
Once you accept that sort of espionage then fuck it, only one small step to consider foreign banks your piggy bank and start embezzling money straight out of them. Three cheers for the good old USA for working so hard to trigger global economic warfare.

--
Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
Re:Outside the range? by cold+fjord · 2014-01-27 03:18 · Score: 0, Troll

The difference being the American armaments were received before the revolution, and when it was legal.
The point being that intelligence agencies can have a legitimate interest in commercial activity besides theft of trade secrets. I will also point out that not every firm has honored sanctions.

--
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Re:Outside the range? by Xest · 2014-01-27 03:20 · Score: 4, Insightful

Regarding China, the most useful information probably relates to contract negotiation. Stemming the tide of Chinese corporate purchases and Chinese oil company investment in Africa and so forth, but also allowing companies like Apple to better negotiate terms with their manufacturers.
But in general there have been a lot of military deals that European firms for example were set to win because they'd put in the best bid (objectively so) only for the deal to be cancelled last minute, sometimes after being signed citing "corruption" only for American firms to be handed the deal on a platter without restarting the tender process (which is what would happen if corruption was a real concern).
If during take over and purchase negotiations and so forth America is able to get e-mails saying things like "We'll take $250,000 for the company but let's push for $500,000" then the American firms know they can hold out until that minimum and not risk losing the deal giving them an artificial advantage in negotiations.
There are many examples, and I don't pretend it is just America doing it, I think the UK and France at minimum do a lot of it too, but it's not really a good idea long term as you're just legitimising the practice and it's simply then just a race of who does it best, until someone loses, then when someone loses a race that shouldn't even have been happening in the first place they'll get angry, and get their own back another way.
It's just not a good idea building global distrust like this.
Re:Outside the range? by Xest · 2014-01-27 03:31 · Score: 2

"The difference being the American armaments were received before the revolution, and when it was legal."
But that's what you're talking about now? You talked about Siemens selling to them once sanctions are lifted. There's no difference.
"The point being that intelligence agencies can have a legitimate interest in commercial activity besides theft of trade secrets."
Of course they can, but that's not what espionage is, and espionage is the accusation here.
Re:Outside the range? by Alan+Shutko · 2014-01-27 03:34 · Score: 2

Well that depends, if you got a situation where America is artificially taking work away from other nations by simply stealing their knowledge, product designs and so forth then that might mean those nations become less stable and more likely to want to hurt America when they find out the only reason they're poor and unemployed is because America stole from them.
What have we done to China so far?
Developing countries are known for bootstrapping themselves by stealing IP from more developed nations. (The US did it when it was a developing nation: look at the history of textiles.) China has been doing it to the US for years, and our response has not been WWIII, but rather to work on gradually improving IP protections.
Re:Outside the range? by SirGarlon · 2014-01-27 03:34 · Score: 1

The point being that intelligence agencies can have a legitimate interest in commercial activity besides theft of trade secrets.
That's an astute observation. What a pity the NSA decided to jeopardize that legitimate national security interest.
If their real mission is national security, they're providing negative value.

--
[Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
Re:Outside the range? by cold+fjord · 2014-01-27 03:36 · Score: 1, Troll

It's kind of disappointing to see you stop short like that. As long as you're freeing inventing things you should claim that they are a conspiracy to form a world government for the .000001% that will then collect the sweat of the poor to form an artificial lake to float their boats for their yacht parties where endangered species will be served for dinner.

--
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Re:Outside the range? by ceoyoyo · 2014-01-27 03:37 · Score: 1

You might want to be careful with that line of thinking. One of the few things the US really exports is intellectual property. That's why the US government is so obsessed with bullying the rest of the world into enacting repressive copyright and patent laws. If the US makes a habit of stealing information there's no reason the rest of the world should respect their IP.
Re:Outside the range? by mrchaotica · 2014-01-27 03:38 · Score: 4, Interesting

I think he's trying to make the argument that if corporate espionage counts as "national security" then so does any NSA interference in "commerce," which due to the absurdly broad interpretation of the Commerce Clause means that the NSA can do literally anything at all.
It's not actually that big a leap, I think.

--
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
Re:Outside the range? by swillden · 2014-01-27 03:40 · Score: 2

If you accept that argument, then all economic activity falls under the umbrella of national security, and the Constitution goes out the window.
Only if you accept that it's okay to toss the Constitution out the window any time "national security" is invoked. Granted that that is the position of the current (and last several) administrations, but that doesn't mean it's true.
However, I think it clearly is true that all economic activity of sufficient scope and scale is relevant to national security. And, actually, I think the NSA even has a legitimate role in assuring the security of large-scale US economic activities.
I once worked on a project with serious implications to the security of a major piece of the US payments infrastructure, and the NSA provided oversight for the project, reviewing all designs, double-checking the implementation and generally providing a lot of really high-quality advice on how to make sure it was properly secured. It was really helpful, and I greatly appreciated their assistance. Unfortunately, the NSA has apparently decided in the last few years to ignore that part of their mission -- increasing US infrastructure security -- in favor of being able to spy on everything, and so switched to trying to pre-compromise all of our most important security tools.
I don't care too much one way or the other about the NSA spying on foreign corporations to help their US-based competitors, mostly because I assume that everyone does it so telling the NSA not to would just tilt the playing field against US companies. But it really pisses me off that the NSA appears to be actively working against the security of US companies.

--
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
Re:Outside the range? by Sarten-X · 2014-01-27 03:57 · Score: 1

I think it's a pretty big leap to go from foreign espionage to unlimited interference anywhere. That's a lot of conditions removed. A much smaller leap is to say that espionage against a foreign government for the benefit of our own government is also suitable for and against government contractors.
The Commerce Clause gives Congress power over interstate Congress, so that would be allow Congress to authorize any domestic interference, not the NSA (though Congress could probably charge the NSA with such a task).
I still don't see how "the Constitution goes out the window" as in SirGarlon's post. Apparently it's +5 Insightful to say that the government's ignoring the Constitution, though.

--
You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
Re:Outside the range? by SirGarlon · 2014-01-27 04:02 · Score: 2

Only if you accept that it's okay to toss the Constitution out the window any time "national security" is invoked. Granted that that is the position of the current (and last several) administrations, but that doesn't mean it's true.

Right, though I'd add it's not only the administration that takes that position. Congress and the courts have been willing accomplices, and an alarming number of ordinary citizens think "national security" is more important than "civil liberties." What should and should not be justified under the rubric of "national security" is still a separate discussion from the scope under which that rubric applies.

--
[Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
Re:Outside the range? by Xest · 2014-01-27 04:03 · Score: 2

"What have we done to China so far?"
http://www.wired.com/wiredente...
http://www.forbes.com/sites/ke...
Given that China has the second largest output for research papers nowadays I'd imagine there's quite a lot for the US to learn from them even if they are stereotyped as a backwater state which the US could learn nothing of value from.
Re:Outside the range? by snakeplissken · 2014-01-27 04:05 · Score: 3, Informative

a world government for the .000001%
hmmm,
85 people own as much as the bottom 350000000 people on earth combined - supposedly - (not half the planets wealth as reported because of course the bottom 350000000 people don't own that much) but still a metric fuck ton of planetary resources control. :)
85 divided by 7 billion =~ 0.00000121%, i think you over estimate the size of the world government there.
Re:Outside the range? by cold+fjord · 2014-01-27 06:48 · Score: 1

I'm not sure how you got this wrong, but lets take it from the beginning.
In the past Iran was an ally of the West. It was legal to sell arms and other goods to it. That is how it acquired American arms like the F-14. After the revolution the Iranian government become hostile, and eventually was sanctioned. There were various companies that violated those sanctions, including European companies. Knowing about those violations is a legitimate question for intelligence agencies to investigate.
The sanction regime has not been lifted as you erroneously state, but it has been modified. Either way it would be a legitimate issue to investigate if countries were selling goods to Iran that could be used to further its nuclear program or for military use.
Espionage could include both the question of what nuclear material is being sold to Iran, and the trade secrets in its manufacture. I have little doubt there is activity to determine what is being sold to Iran, but the claims are that trade secrets are being stolen, for which there doesn't seem to be any proof.

--
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Re:Outside the range? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 08:24 · Score: 0

Offhand, I don't know of any section of the Constitution that would be affected here. The Constitution doesn't actually afford any protection for foreign nations, but I'm sure the hordes of wishful thinkers will insist otherwise.
Here you go...

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
This amendment simply describes a right which everyone in the entire world already has. If it's wrong to search an American without cause, it's wrong to search a Frenchman without cause - who performs this search is irrelevant. You'd think this would be obvious, because otherwise governments would just spy on each other's citizens and share the data.
If lawyers are interpreting this differently it's a problem with the lawyers, not a problem with our rights.
Re:Outside the range? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 08:37 · Score: 0

"...have far less scruples about..."
If anything, this proves that they have about as much scruple as the US.
Careful, your American exceptionalism is showing.
Re:Outside the range? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 10:26 · Score: 0

Very little of the federal constitution specifically _grants_ liberties to citizens. Most of it concerns limiting and circumscribing the power of the federal government.
So, for example, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". Strictly speaking, the Congress has no power to promote religion overseas any more than it can domestically.
In practice, though, the courts tend to be hands-off when it comes to matters of foreign relations and national security. They expect Congress and the President to police themselves, with regular elections as the backstop.
Re:Outside the range? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 10:32 · Score: 0

Industrial espionage promotes corruption (foreign as well as domestic) and leads to expensive counter-measures. This directly results in a loss of overall wealth.
It's retrograde in the extreme for the United States to participate and sanction this kind of behavior. But it's what happens when you unleash an intelligence gorilla which is forced to prove it merit ever two years. Even assuming the NSA programs could stop terrorist incidents, they occur so rarely that the NSA has no other choice but to pursue other endeavors to justify its exorbitant budgets.
Re: Outside the range? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 19:04 · Score: 0

By your logic Russia invented space travel and satellites.
Obvious inventions aren't radical. Coming up with the first method of doing something is worthy of protection for a limited time, perhaps worthy of a Guinness world record, but inventing the airplane first is an accomplishment, not an invention.
People have been thinking about building flying machines since forever (see da Vinci) abd if the Wright's hadn't done it first, someone else would have at most a year later.
Re:Outside the range? by Xest · 2014-01-27 21:02 · Score: 1

Except I'm not American.
Re:Outside the range? by T-ice · 2014-01-28 06:13 · Score: 1

But it's not outside the range of national security as defined by
US Code Title 8 Chapter 12 Subchapter II Part II â Â 1189(d)(2)
the term âoenational securityâ means the national defense, foreign relations, or economic interests of the United States
or you can look it up yourself here
http://www.law.cornell.edu/usc...
Re:Outside the range? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-28 07:07 · Score: 0

Exactly.. the NSA for spying what's worth anything and then patents and copyrights to take control over it. Several politicians in Europe have started realizing this. The 400 000 EU citizens protesting against ACTA in a very winter-cold Februar 2012 is a sign that there may be interesting times ahead...
Re:Outside the range? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-28 08:01 · Score: 0

Hey, I resemble that remark. :/
Re:Outside the range? by eric_harris_76 · 2014-01-28 13:35 · Score: 1

Sure. Why not?
So is all non-economic activity, apparently. The definition of "interstate commerce" has expanded to include activities which are not: (1) commerce, (2) between states.
That was the Official Truth, per the Wickard v Filburn ruling, but lately the Supreme Court has backed off from that. Some. A time or two.
http://duckduckgo.com/?q=wickard.v.filburn

--
There's no time like the present. Well, the past used to be.
Re:Outside the range? by bingoUV · 2014-01-29 00:53 · Score: 1

not half the planets wealth as reported because of course the bottom 350000000 people don't own that much
Maybe it can be refactored as
(half the planet)'s wealth.
Half (the planet's wealth) is wrong, as you rightly mention.

--
Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.

rockets red glare babys bursting in air by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 01:12 · Score: 0

& still no one really cares? spiritual bankruptcy proceedings are ongoing..... going on....

Re:rockets red glare babys bursting in air by lagomorpha2 · 2014-01-27 02:42 · Score: 1

& still no one really cares? spiritual bankruptcy proceedings are ongoing..... going on....
If the United States files for spiritual bankruptcy how will it influence our long term spiritual credit rating? Will we be allowed to retain our dignity through the proceedings or will that be auctioned off?

German transcript by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 01:15 · Score: 5, Informative

Can be found here http://www.tagesschau.de/snowden-interview-deutsch100.pdf

America Inc. by Taco+Cowboy · 2014-01-27 01:15 · Score: 3, Interesting

The French was epic in industrial espionage until the Chinese caught up.

Never to be left behind, the United States jumped on the wagon - and applied the lesson learned from both the French and the Chinese, the United States of America has perfected the art of industrial espionage to such degree that no one, not even the Chinese, can ever dream of matching their success.

But unfortunately, 99% of the American corporations don't get to enjoy the fruit of the industrial espionage. Only HUGE industrial complexes (such as Boeing, Google, Corning, Citibank) get to benefit from the gems NSA manage to gather.

That is why, even today, most of the SMEs in America are still struggling, but on the other hand, those HUMONGOUS corporations grow leaps and bounds.

--
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !

Re:America Inc. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 01:19 · Score: 0

So, you are saying it really is not a free market?
Re:America Inc. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 01:32 · Score: 0

That's not a moon and there is no spoon.
Re:America Inc. by cold+fjord · 2014-01-27 02:08 · Score: 1, Troll

Only HUGE industrial complexes (such as Boeing, Google, Corning, Citibank) get to benefit from the gems NSA manage to gather.
I'm sure you must have some proof of that. Care to share it?

--
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Re:America Inc. by Taco+Cowboy · 2014-01-27 02:10 · Score: 1, Troll

Edward Snowden can't go home. I still can. I do not want to find myself lock out of my own country - America.
At least not yet.

--
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
Re:America Inc. by macpacheco · 2014-01-27 04:26 · Score: 1, Insightful

Do you really hope we mere mortals would have hard information about this ?
But really, if the NSA is doing industrial espionage on Petrobras, do you think the little American Oil companies would get that data ?
The affirmation that only the large corporations that are in bed with govt would get some of that data is essentially a given, no proof needed. It's too obvious. But more focus with being in bed with govt than being big.
Re:America Inc. by cold+fjord · 2014-01-27 04:35 · Score: 3, Insightful

no proof needed. It's too obvious.
It's "obvious" in much the same way that other false things have been "obvious" over the years on Slashdot.

--
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Re:America Inc. by SuricouRaven · 2014-01-27 04:58 · Score: 3, Interesting

Precisely what we don't know. If the NSA were throwing useful business intelligence to every American company that could benefit, news would have leaked by now - enough people would know that someone would inevitably talk. So any business spying they do perform must be tightly controlled, and the intelligence given only to the most trusted companies, like defense contractors.
Re:America Inc. by StevenMaurer · 2014-01-27 06:23 · Score: 1

If ever anyone wonders how anyone can take the likes of Glenn Beck seriously, or the studies about how how introducing people who are wrong on evolution to actual facts makes them hate evolution even more, think back on your own behavior regarding the NSA. Many claims about what the NSA is doing are clearly computationally impossible, but don't you dare point this out lest you be down-voted to oblivion, especially on sites like Reddit.
Basically a large number of people simply believe what they want to believe. And far from intelligence inoculating against this tendency, it seems to exacerbate it. People who are aware that they're not all that bright seem to be a bit more humble in actually learning facts. It's geniuses who seem most likely to go completely off the rails into magical-thinking, especially in fields in which they are not actually familiar.
Re:America Inc. by Demonoid-Penguin · 2014-01-27 10:21 · Score: 1

no proof needed. It's too obvious.
It's "obvious" in much the same way that other false things have been "obvious" over the years on Slashdot.
You're confusing psychic "knowledge" with psychotic conflating an emotional investment in their own "gut instincts" "confirmed" by a cherry-picked version of reality and calling it "obvious". A common mistake I blame on education and logical deduction.
My intiution is that psychic ability is, um, bullshit....
Re:America Inc. by macpacheco · 2014-01-27 15:56 · Score: 1

All it takes is digesting all the data from Wikileaks and Snowden and applying it to the rest of the issues.
It's no psychic anything. Its called deduction.
You are right that my logic wouldn't stand in court... Obviously.
You probably believe the White House knew nothing about 9/11 before 9/11 happened, and they honestly expected the Iraq war to lead to US friendly democracy in the middle east.
The head terrorist (Mohammed Atta) of 9/11 did a lot of stunts while learning to fly, including busting the Cape Canaveral airspace, I was at the airport he rented aircraft from Arthur Dunn Airpark in Titusville-FL when he landed, and there was this huge argument pretty public, yes, unfortunately I met that monster. I was skydiving there back then.
The system isn't rigged for the best interests of the average american citizen, it's rigged to help those that funded those in the white house and congress. There is plenty of evidence of that both from the Dubya times as well as the current administration. And plenty of what is done is against the interests of the average american citizen, specially when it comes to national security and wars. That's why I have a tremendous respect for Obama, the only side I think is missing is he should threaten his foes a little bit, people need to believe he's willing to go to war, but that's a great conflict with how to open dialog with long time foes like Iran.
Re:America Inc. by Demonoid-Penguin · 2014-01-28 00:02 · Score: 2

All it takes is digesting all the data from Wikileaks and Snowden and applying it to the rest of the issues. It's no psychic anything. Its called deduction. You are right that my logic wouldn't stand in court... Obviously. You probably believe the White House knew nothing about 9/11 before 9/11 happened,
I differentiate between "believe", "suspect", and "know".
I suspect a lot of things. I "know" their is no entity called the "White House" - it's a building occupied by a bunch of partially informed people with different agendas. So, no, I don't "believe" the "White House" "knew" about 9/11 in advance. I do "believe" that when people talk of "them" and "they" in the context you use them - that they subscribe to unified conspiracy theories, an over-simplification of reality. I don't believe in nationalist conspiracies that run countries or wars - company interests do, and they don't believe in nationalism except as a tools to manipulate people's opinions. As for conspiracies - I side with Adam Smith on their origins and frequency.
I suspect Bush and Co. "should" have seen something like it coming. I suspect some FBI personnel had evidence it was going to happen, whether they "knew" is a different matter. E.g. I "suspect" you have "the large corporations that are in bed with govt" backwards, and that you don't comprehend the Snowden and Wikileaks releases - all that data is gathered by devices made by private companies and processed by private companies, after being pitched to those agencies by those same companies (there's gold in that thar data). The order in which the data access occurs is critical to the understanding. i.e if you "think" that the problem is that the government leaks data to companies you've got it arse-backwards.
And I definitely don't believe in psychics. Though I do believe many people "saw a lot of things coming", just like they "often know who it is calling there phone before they see Caller ID". The problem is despite "knowing" they never test their "knowledge i.e. they only recall the times they were right, not the majority of times they were wrong. Because they only ever look for "evidence" to support their "gut instincts". Who were Snowden's employers again?
Re:America Inc. by macpacheco · 2014-01-28 08:02 · Score: 1

Until we can have full access to all of that classified data, I'll keep drawing my conclusions.
NSA people are far more concerned with protecting sources and methods than they will ever care about transparency. It's the law of the land in the spy game.
If your enemy knows how you will gather the information, he can avoid using that medium.
So I'll never trust the NSA, CIA, KGB, FSB, MI6, GCHQ, and I certainly don't trust my domestic ABIN (Brazil's feeble attempt at an NSA).
The military is just about the same, their mission is more important than honesty or truth.
Re:America Inc. by gmanterry · 2014-01-28 10:05 · Score: 1

Do you really hope we mere mortals would have hard information about this ?
But really, if the NSA is doing industrial espionage on Petrobras, do you think the little American Oil companies would get that data ?
The affirmation that only the large corporations that are in bed with govt would get some of that data is essentially a given, no proof needed. It's too obvious. But more focus with being in bed with govt than being big.
And if they are doing industrial espionage, do you not think that they are using the political data they amass to influence elections here at home too. Please understand that the NSA reports directly to the Executive branch and the big boss is the President of The United States. I find it hard to believe that the NSA is not feeding the Prez private emails from the Congress and the Judges. The NSA also now has all the contact information from all journalists so all sources are know also. Of course the President doesn't want the program stopped, it's his keys to the kingdom. And if a Republican get elected, he will want to continue it also. To stop the NSA turns Superman into an ordinary human male.

--
Since when is "public safety" the root password to the Constitution?

For a long time by guygo · 2014-01-27 01:16 · Score: 0, Redundant

This is nothing new. Ike's "Military Industrial Complex" has been getting the fruits of the NSA's labor since its inception. Gotta keep ahead of those Russkies (or Chinese, or Germans, or ...), ya' know.

*Not* news. by Mashiki · 2014-01-27 01:17 · Score: 0

All national security agencies engage in industrial espionage. Whether the NSA, CSIS, or MI6.

--
Om, nomnomnom...

Re:*Not* news. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 01:24 · Score: 2, Informative

Fair enough, but you can't get upset the next time China is caught spying on U.S. companies.
Re:*Not* news. by Big+Hairy+Ian · 2014-01-27 01:40 · Score: 0

Indeed anyone who believes anything Snowden has made public so far is a revelation really has wool stapled to their eyebrows.

--
Build a Man a Fire, and He'll Be Warm for a Day. Set a Man on Fire, and He'll Be Warm for the Rest of His Life.
Re:*Not* news. by I)_MaLaClYpSe_(I · 2014-01-27 01:51 · Score: 1

Actually, no, the German BND is one of the very few who doesn't. At least that's what they say.
Re:*Not* news. by SpzToid · 2014-01-27 02:01 · Score: 1

'All the professional bicycle racers in the Tour de France cheat.'
-Lance Armstrong (after he said a *million* times he didn't cheat, and after he got caught)
Enjoy your legacy Lance for the rest of your life and then some.

--
You can't be ahead of the curve, if you're stuck in a loop.
Re:*Not* news. by Austerity+Empowers · 2014-01-27 03:10 · Score: 2

Sure we can, that's what makes this politics.
Re:*Not* news. by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 03:13 · Score: 0

Fair enough, but you can't get upset the next time China is caught spying on U.S. companies.
Yes we can. It's in or best interests to spy on you while preventing you from spying on us. Anything that gives us an advantage over you is good for us.
Re:*Not* news. by jez9999 · 2014-01-27 04:58 · Score: 1

"We already knew it all anyway!"
So why weren't your news channels reporting this outrageous stuff before? And why do many members of your political establishment want to kill or lock up Snowden if he's not releasing any new info?

--
== Jez ==
Do you miss Firefox? Try Pale Moon.
Re:*Not* news. by Big+Hairy+Ian · 2014-01-27 21:10 · Score: 1

Because he's confirming what we already suspected but couldn't prove

--
Build a Man a Fire, and He'll Be Warm for a Day. Set a Man on Fire, and He'll Be Warm for the Rest of His Life.

Ever heard of Locust Funds? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 01:18 · Score: 4, Interesting

Get ready for leaks about NSA using spy data to short stocks on major stock exchanges around the world! Who said crime didn't pay?

Re:Ever heard of Locust Funds? by rmdingler · 2014-01-27 01:26 · Score: 3, Informative

nice link!

--
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.
Ernest Hemingway

Re:*Not* news -- no kidding it's TIMOTHY by phayes · 2014-01-27 01:23 · Score: 2, Insightful

But only Timothy engages in systematic linkbaiting & selection of the summaries that try to sensationalize what everyone already knows.

--
Democracy is a sheep and two wolves deciding what to have for lunch. Freedom is a well armed sheep contesting the issue

I don't care for your vision of America by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 01:23 · Score: 2, Insightful

If America with all our resources can't work out some cheap knock-off without resorting to industrial espionage, we deserve to fail.

Let's be honest though, the NSA serves only a small portion of our population and sees the rest of us as their adversary.

Re:I don't care for your vision of America by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 02:00 · Score: 4, Interesting

Let's be honest though, the NSA serves only a small portion of our population and sees the rest of us as their adversary.
The NSA serves nobody but itself. It's in its self-interest to siphon off as much tax payer money as possible but the control structures that need to be greased for that are deliberately removed from the control and oversight of the tax payer.
That's not all too different from how secret services in other countries operate and partly hard to avoid if the "secret" is supposed to make some kind of sense.
What's different in the U.S.A., however, is that the amount of money the secret services burn through without basic oversight is a significant portion of the nation's income, to a degree where it endangers the national finances as well as international relations.
The NSA is out of control by design, but it is taking down the whole nation, and that's causing more damage than good to its ulterior justification of providing a net benefit to the U.S.A.
Re:I don't care for your vision of America by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-28 07:03 · Score: 0

Yes if it's as powerful as Snowden claims it's probably puppeteering most of the politicians also... Having detailed reports on anything shameful they've ever done so that they could be taken down in a "scandal" if they voice opinions against the NSA.

why the soap opera ? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 01:27 · Score: 0, Insightful

Why are we getting like 1 news a month from Mr. Snowden ?
This is turning into a media show...

Re:why the soap opera ? by Maritz · 2014-01-27 01:43 · Score: 1

You honestly can't work out why? It's pretty damn obvious why.

--
I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
Re:why the soap opera ? by aslashdotaccount · 2014-01-27 01:50 · Score: 1

If we could have figured out what George Lucas was up to, Star Wars just wouldn't have been as much fun - or wouldn't continue to drive us mad with anticipation after Disney took over.
Re:why the soap opera ? by LoRdTAW · 2014-01-27 01:56 · Score: 5, Informative

The idea is that if everything is released at once then the story will ruffle some feathers for only a few weeks/months and die out quickly.
By releasing their dirty secrets one at a time and once a month, the story can be kept in the media for years (or so Snowden says). This ensures the pressure is kept on the NSA and government to do something. Though, so far the crooks are trying to justify everything they do and are quite defiant in defending their practices.
Re:why the soap opera ? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 02:28 · Score: 1

Why are we getting like 1 news a month from Mr. Snowden ?
This is turning into a media show...
Probably to let us know that he is still alive and the US Government has not had him assassinated yet. Also I would bet that continually embarrassing the Obama regime is required to maintain his political asylum status with Russia.
Re:why the soap opera ? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 03:12 · Score: 0

It probably also makes the stories more believable. The NSA et al. defending against one ever more damning revelation at a time helps legitimise the leaks and prevents the whole lot being disregarded as fiction.
Re:why the soap opera ? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 04:44 · Score: 0

Not to mention further revelations exposes the lies of excuses from each previous round of revelation.
Re:why the soap opera ? by tpstigers · 2014-01-27 04:47 · Score: 0

Just Snowden's sad attempts to be relevant.
Re:why the soap opera ? by BobMcD · 2014-01-27 05:00 · Score: 5, Insightful

Not to mention further revelations exposes the lies of excuses from each previous round of revelation.
This, here, is the real trick.
There has been a lot of this:
1) Assert 'A'
2) Government denies 'A'
3) Prove 'A'. Assert 'B'.
4) Government admits to needing to do 'A', but says it would never do 'B'.
5) Prove 'B'. Assert 'C'. ...and so on...
The fact that the government FELL FOR IT for so very long this summer and fall says a lot about their arrogance. Well that and how little they know about what he actually took.
Re:why the soap opera ? by shutdown+-p+now · 2014-01-27 10:50 · Score: 1

We are not getting anew news from Mr Snowden. He dumped everything onto a bunch of journalists before going into hiding (to remind, the condition of his stay in Russia is "no further leaks"). It's the journalists that carefully dose the information - and once you understand that, it should be obvious as to why.

It's a free market ! by Taco+Cowboy · 2014-01-27 01:29 · Score: 5, Insightful

It's a free market all right, it's a free "to spy on everybody and steal their secret" market !!

--
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !

Re:It's a free market ! by cold+fjord · 2014-01-27 02:09 · Score: 1

There is certainly plenty of free innuendo.

--
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Re:It's a free market ! by Jawnn · 2014-01-27 02:28 · Score: 1

I know you're being sarcastic (in a way) but a market with the government of the largest world power as a player is anything but free. Still, here's betting that the fan boys of free market mythology still don't get it.

Privacy by aslashdotaccount · 2014-01-27 01:30 · Score: 2, Funny

What does this exposition have to do with helping preserve the privacy of citizens?

Re:So what else is new? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 01:31 · Score: 1

I think if he "spilled" too much at once most people would be overwhelmed by it all. Sometimes slow and patient is the best approach.

And let's not forget that as long as the NSA knows he still has something to reveal from his encrypted caches they aren't going to kill him.

What's next? by Racerdude · 2014-01-27 01:31 · Score: 1

Okay so spying to safeguard national security makes sense. Even if it means stepping on the toes of your allies... perhaps? Now we hear of NSA involved in industrial espionage. For the good of US companies so that makes sense. How far away is spying for political gain? Spying for the party currently in power against political opponents?

Re:What's next? by Maritz · 2014-01-27 01:47 · Score: 5, Insightful

Being deceptive and manipulative works out great when everyone thinks you're legit. Once you're outed as a conniving liar though, the consequences aren't always fun. I suspect the NSA/USA's 'spy-on-everyone-including-your-friends' tactic is in the process of backfiring spectacularly.

--
I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
Re:What's next? by davecb · 2014-01-27 03:45 · Score: 1

The traditional response to discovering a formerly trusted supplier is actually a mafia front is to be "encouraged" to not discuss such things in public. The front then goes into a state of denial, or at least feigned denial (:-))

--
davecb@spamcop.net

Even friends and allies do it among each other by vikingpower · 2014-01-27 01:32 · Score: 5, Funny

I once worked for one of the companies involved in the JSF project. As soon as we knew that Lockheed Martin had a web app for performing a certain task, I was asked by my boss to get the entire web app's jar files, reverse engineer it, and tell him how good or bad LM's implementation was. The company for which I worked then went on to steal LM's implementation and incorporate it into its own commercial product.

Which, and this is the best part, they then sold. To Lockheed Martin.

--
Religous speak to God. Insane are spoken to by God. When all shut up, one can finally hear Shostakovich in peace

Re:Even friends and allies do it among each other by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 01:39 · Score: 0

Shouldn't you have AC'd this particular bit of info?
Re:Even friends and allies do it among each other by vikingpower · 2014-01-27 01:40 · Score: 2

No. Did I name anyone ? Any company ? Any country, even ? And then... I may have my reasons not go AC, you know ;-)

--
Religous speak to God. Insane are spoken to by God. When all shut up, one can finally hear Shostakovich in peace
Re:Even friends and allies do it among each other by aslashdotaccount · 2014-01-27 01:41 · Score: 1

Hasn't corporate America been doing this for ages? Ask Bill Gates or Steve Jobs. Better still, ask Bob Metcalfe (where Bill Gates got NTLM from). And if you want global examples look at Huawei. However, I doubt this is the scope of espionage that Snowden's referring to, which would be laughable if it was.
Re:Even friends and allies do it among each other by It+doesn't+come+easy · 2014-01-27 01:42 · Score: 2

One has to wonder how much of the world's technological advances was (is?) actually dependent on IP theft? I can imagine a great deal during the cold war for sure. What about now?

--
The NSA: The only part of the US government that actually listens.
Re:Even friends and allies do it among each other by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 01:42 · Score: 0

A moment to be proud of
Re:Even friends and allies do it among each other by aslashdotaccount · 2014-01-27 01:54 · Score: 1

One word: Huawei
Re:Even friends and allies do it among each other by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 02:09 · Score: 0

One has to wonder how much of the world's technological advances was (is?) actually dependent on IP theft?
Which is a good reason to rein in the absurd extents that "IP" laws are allowed to cover: they benefit the crooks more than the fair players. Of course, it's a general property of laws that they affect those who keep them more than those who don't.
But once you reach the "don't be silly, everybody does it" area, the laws disproportionally disadvantage the rare fair player.
Re:Even friends and allies do it among each other by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 02:28 · Score: 0, Flamebait

You're cunt, and I'm offended by your saying a. "God rest his soul" (there is no god, and if there is, because SteveJobs was a bad person, he'll be resting in a bad place), b. you apologized for a meaningless reason -- anyone who got offended needs to be kicked in the head.
You also need to be kicked in the head.
Re:Even friends and allies do it among each other by ArsenneLupin · 2014-01-27 03:48 · Score: 1

Which, and this is the best part, they then sold. To Lockheed Martin.
Happens all the time, in many companies. And I'm pretty sure that many people at Lockheed Martin knew exactly what was going on. Except management, who didn't want to believe it...
Note: I'm not posting this as an AC either. So here's a note to my managers: I specifically didn't say that this was going on in our company too, nor did I outline any irony of this comment appearing in a thread about industrial espionage by the NSA...
Re:Even friends and allies do it among each other by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 06:09 · Score: 0

Fully agreed. Why was this AC modded down??
Re:Even friends and allies do it among each other by vikingpower · 2014-01-27 08:02 · Score: 1

Sure, dude. Of course. Steve Jobs was a saint. All fanbois know that. Then again, I am not a fanboi. And most /tards are not, either.

--
Religous speak to God. Insane are spoken to by God. When all shut up, one can finally hear Shostakovich in peace

Re:Gee... by lxs · 2014-01-27 01:37 · Score: 1

No they don't, but you can keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better.

Keep the love coming! by LF11 · 2014-01-27 01:37 · Score: 5, Interesting

This just gets more and more rich as time goes. So what if every spy agency does it? That does not make it right. It is time for ordinary people to figure out whether they want this kind of action being done by their governments.

I am very happy Snowden is choosing to release this material one drop at a time. It is like Chinese water torture against the intelligence apparatus. Please, keep the love coming!

I think after the Murrah bombing, 9/11, and the marathon bombing, we have established that the security agencies are not capable of stopping actual terrorist activity against American citizens. Not when every supposed thwarting is really just an FBI set-up. So it is time for us to really consider what these agencies are actually doing, since they are apparently not stopping terrorism.

Re:Keep the love coming! by aslashdotaccount · 2014-01-27 01:47 · Score: 0

Once again, what does this have to do with ordinary citizens? Yes, agreed that Snowden's disclosure of PRISM was relevant, but he's just grasping at straws with this one.
Re:Keep the love coming! by LF11 · 2014-01-27 01:57 · Score: 4, Insightful

Because ordinary citizens -- both American and foreign -- have jobs with these corporations, jobs that are affected by industrial espionage?

Because we have expectations of privacy (in the absence of wrongdoing) and that expectation applies to corporations as well?

Because industrial espionage is the motherlode of data in the age of the Internet...can you imagine the damage if Snowden were corrupted by Chinese intelligence services? Or Russian? Indeed, what if that is the case with other NSA personnel already?

Because an intelligence agency willing to engage in corporate profiteering is showing a callous disrespect for law, privacy, and ethics?

If an intelligence agency has freed itself from the bonds of law and public oversight, how far will it go? Will it be used against a populist target such as the "1%" or against a political target such as Occupy? Indeed, is it already being used for such? (Michael Hastings!)

Stop being an apologist, recognize the cancer for what it is.
Re:Keep the love coming! by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 02:10 · Score: 0

Once again, what does this have to do with ordinary citizens?
Aren't ordinary citizens employed by the organisations that were spied on? Wasn't their work stollen?
Re:Keep the love coming! by gnupun · 2014-01-27 02:14 · Score: 3, Insightful

Once again, what does this have to do with ordinary citizens?

Translation: if it doesn't affect me, why should I care?
Re:Keep the love coming! by aslashdotaccount · 2014-01-27 02:15 · Score: 1

Tell me which organization lets full-time employees own IPs of projects they work on for their employers?
Re:Keep the love coming! by aslashdotaccount · 2014-01-27 02:17 · Score: 1

Why is something newsworthy when it's sensationalized? Why was this not: http://www.lightreading.com/et...
Re:Keep the love coming! by jareth-0205 · 2014-01-27 02:24 · Score: 3, Informative

Once again, what does this have to do with ordinary citizens? Yes, agreed that Snowden's disclosure of PRISM was relevant, but he's just grasping at straws with this one.
That's pretty extreme myopia to decide that it doesn't matter because 'ordinary citizens' aren't affected... it doesn't have to directly immediately target normal people to affect them.
But to answer your question, ordinary citizens *are* directly affected, they have jobs in these companies. Ordinary citizens are shareholders of these companies (Even non-explicit shareholders, of you have a pension then you have shares one way or another).
Re:Keep the love coming! by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 02:31 · Score: 0

Tell me which organization lets full-time employees own IPs of projects they work on for their employers?
Spy on the company and, in most of the cases, you'll weaken it (by hurting a healthy competition). Weaken it and you'll reduce the chances their employees are going to have a job tomorrow.
There are more ways spying deprives workers from the benefits of their effort.
Re:Keep the love coming! by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 02:35 · Score: 1

The ordinary citizens are supposed to be the ones in power, via elected representatives. The described behaviour may damage the international relations of the USA significantly, so the citizens should know of it. Or, alternatively, at least the citizens should not be lied about it being all about terrorists and such.
Re:Keep the love coming! by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 02:37 · Score: 0

As long as these foreign companies sell their products to dictators and countries trying to build nuclear weapons, it is a good idea to know all of the specs and flaws in them.
Careful, buddy. China may not like US helping the Saudi (they are dictators, you know?). By your measure, US would be fair game for China.
Re:Keep the love coming! by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 02:41 · Score: 1

Once again, what does this have to do with ordinary citizens?
Nothing, ordinary citizen. In the interest of national security, please stop listening to enemy propaganda and report any neighbors that continue listening to the enemy to the nearest NSA office. It is your national duty to assist with curbing the Jewish World Conspirat... wait, wrong buzzphrase, International Terrorism and report all enemy sympathizers.
Your full cooperation is required for letting the U.S.A. stay the greatest of all nations.
Re:Keep the love coming! by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 02:43 · Score: 0

What I find more disturbing in all this, isn't that the NSA or other intelligence agencies are participating in industrial espionage. That's a likely outcome of their position for investigation given our current state of technology. What disturbing to me, is that US Corporations are likely directly benefiting from this. What's worse, if it did come to light with direct evidence of it occuring, knife in hand over the body, you probably wouldn't hear a single complaint against that fact in the US news media from now till the end of time. And Wall Street likely wouldn't bat an eye. A few people would probably short sell, and then the stock would go up.
I'm starting to think that capitalist ideology, has blurred the line of seperation between Government and private industry. Perhaps it was never there, and likely hidden in legalese, masked by rules on the outside, but fully acceptable beneath. Or, perhaps my expectation of how the most powerful nation in the world, should behave, is completely unrealistic. It actually contains morals, ethics, and respect for other nations. Ho, hum....
Just let the Snowden 'acid drip' continue. This is worth it on every front!
Re:Keep the love coming! by LF11 · 2014-01-27 03:00 · Score: 1

Don't be an ass, my opinion is meaningless regardless of how I phrase it.

As for context, who are you to determine what is or is not proper context?

This Snowden leak is clearly aimed at securing corporate opposition to the NSA. Yet the danger of an intelligence agency broken free from the bonds of law and oversight applies not just to corporations, but to every one of us.
Re:Keep the love coming! by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 03:14 · Score: 0

Aren't ordinary citizens employed by the organisations that were spied on? Wasn't their work stollen?
You're a fruitcake. Their work wasn't stollen. It was Battenburg.
Re:Keep the love coming! by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 06:27 · Score: 0

If you can't fathom the reason why you need context in forming a valid opinion you will probably cover it in the 6th grade. Putting something in context means incorporating the all of the relevant information and circumstances involved with the topic you happen to be discussing. If you say US spying is bad and they should stop doing it you will also need to identify all of the other countries who are direct competitors of the US who do the exact same thing and explain why it is OK for them to spy but the US should stop. There are no enemies or allies when it comes to state sponsored espionage there are only interests. I thought the whole 1% versus 99% arguments where about income equality but it also describes the level of intelligence present in today's world. Maybe there is a direct correlation between income and intelligence?
Re:Keep the love coming! by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-28 07:11 · Score: 0

It does matter because patents and copyrights can force prices up artificially - you will get less for your money - a lot less. It also affects your freedom of starting and running business. If established actors can take your work from you and patent it before you got it working - then you don't have a lot of chance competing - effectively killing the freedom of the market.

Re:Gee... by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 01:42 · Score: 0

The AC reckons most governments do the same. Well that's alright then.

Snowden interview in english by I)_MaLaClYpSe_(I · 2014-01-27 01:45 · Score: 5, Informative

German sender ARD/NDR has now published the english interview in OV after substantial criticism.

Re:Snowden interview in english by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 04:15 · Score: 0

Thanks, but they didn't make it available in my country
Re:Snowden interview in english by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 18:19 · Score: 0

Also here.

U.S stealing trade and tech by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 01:58 · Score: 5, Insightful

It's funny to hear U.S gov and confused Americans say the Chinese are stealing technology, a discussion and argument that bears no logic whatsoever, but at the same time they're doing everything they can to get information and secrets on trade, technology etc. while saying it's to protect the U.S. Hilarious.

Re:U.S stealing trade and tech by bob_super · 2014-01-27 07:27 · Score: 1

> the Chinese are stealing technology, a discussion and argument that bears no logic whatsoever
Indeed, they never steal stuff, they just request the files so they can build and test it.
And falling labor costs looks good for the next couple quarterly reports.
Why would they steal, when we're greedy?

surprise? by YoungManKlaus · 2014-01-27 02:02 · Score: 0

not really

Been happening for years by Maury+Markowitz · 2014-01-27 02:05 · Score: 2

I recall Canadian Echelon operators spying on their US counterparts to win a grain trade deal with China in the 1970s.

Re:So? by Jah-Wren+Ryel · 2014-01-27 02:09 · Score: 1

This is probably nothing that should surprise or alert the average US citizen.

I have a vivid memory of watching congressional testimony by top Boeing executives over 20 years ago where they swore up and down that they did not want any help from american spy agencies. I'm sure they were talking about Airbus. I don't remember exactly what prompted congress to get involved, maybe it was the outing of some french industrial espionage that had recently come to light.

--
When information is power, privacy is freedom.

more like polybiotic? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 02:09 · Score: 0

that's what my friend shaves with pliers says. we become one with petroleum products in this episode rendering us nearly waterproof at some stage of our devolution? advanced prosperitarism is a tradeoff?

try going outdoors from time to time by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 02:14 · Score: 0

maybe even look up at the sky...... more than once a year while driving about aimlessly

Re:try going outdoors from time to time by Luckyo · 2014-01-27 02:29 · Score: 1

I wonder if you even understand that this is a threat of political assassination rather than a statement about someone being a nerd in today's world?

Re:So? by stoploss · 2014-01-27 02:21 · Score: 1

This is probably nothing that should surprise or alert the average US citizen.

I have a vivid memory of watching congressional testimony by top Boeing executives over 20 years ago where they swore up and down that they did not want any help from american spy agencies.

I know I'm cynical, but I always sigh when I see testimony from business leaders or politicians. We all know they are pathological liars, so why do we have to put ourselves through this charade where we summon them simply to have them look us in the eyes and lie to us?

It's... masochistic.

It's easy to 'justify' by lewscroo · 2014-01-27 02:26 · Score: 2

It is probably pretty easy to 'justify' this type of national security corporate espionage in the name of national security. This type of corporate espionage was probably able to help us create the Stuxnet virus as that used vulnerabilities in some pretty specific hardware to do it's job and the companies themselves are not always going to help out the US Government, especially if they are a foreign entity. So they could easily say there is a national security need for this type of information collection as it could be used for similar reasons, though there are plenty of other reasons I'm sure we could come up with to 'justify' it too. I mean, this is a country where we are able to 'justify' the need to collect everyone's phone call information even with nothing to show for it.

IP treaties by gmuslera · 2014-01-27 02:34 · Score: 2

What will happen with international treaties related with intellectual property when one of the main proposals of them officially don't respect the intellectual property of te companies from the other signers? Should be repelled all around the world as bad jokes?

Re:IP treaties by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 02:59 · Score: 0

What will happen with international treaties related with intellectual property when one of the main proposals of them officially don't respect the intellectual property of te companies from the other signers? Should be repelled all around the world as bad jokes?
Ummmm... I really don't know what happens: usually they a printed on a too thick a paper to use it at the toilet.

nazi style assassin nations by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 02:36 · Score: 0

a matter of coming home,, or homecomings, feeling safe from abuse etc... http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=scott%20olsen&sm=3

a thought... by EngineeringStudent · 2014-01-27 02:46 · Score: 1

I was thinking about the movie where the NSA could spread a virus through the power supply.
I was also jus thinking how security researchers just found a virus that could spread by sound over disconnencted systems.
I then also realized that certain types of power supplies have consistent bad acoustic behavior - I can hear their caps.

Putting this together makes for a worm that on the PC checks the nature of the power supply, and can spread to phones/tablets/other PC by the power supply.

[1] http://www.extremetech.com/com...
[2] http://www.imdb.com/title/tt02...
[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D...

Re:a thought... by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 06:31 · Score: 0

Um, ok, that's a long shot, and would be viable except that there needs to be a bootstrap loader listening to the sound in order to load the virus. This means that the machine in question is already compromised in some form ... so it's already compromised, mkay? Circular reference.

Re:*Not* news -- no kidding it's TIMOTHY by cold+fjord · 2014-01-27 02:48 · Score: 3, Insightful

I find that there is no shortage of false things that "everyone already knows" on Slashdot.

--
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell

Not a world leader any more by arvindsg · 2014-01-27 02:58 · Score: 1

For long this country has been leading the world on multiple fronts, including innovation and research but when you are found stealing knowledge from others ipso facto you are not the leader any more.

Re:So what else is new? by Austerity+Empowers · 2014-01-27 03:08 · Score: 0

I would imagine it's primarily an incentive for Russia to keep him alive, at this point the NSA has no doubt been trying to kill him for some time. They may prefer to know what he knows so they can figure out how he got it, but the damage he's doing is such that I'm sure they're willing to use their imagination and just make him dead.

Re:So what else is new? by cjjjer · 2014-01-27 03:08 · Score: 1

I think if he "spilled" too much at once most people would be overwhelmed by it all.

More like if he released everything at once in the beginning he would have been irrelevant by now and nobody would give a rats ass about him or what he had to say.

Original English interview by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 03:09 · Score: 1

Here is a link from the German NDR but I cannot vouch for it possibly being blocked depending of geolocation of the viewer IP address (copyright etc etc). However, there is also a Youtube link available.

Enabling industrial espionage. by FellowConspirator · 2014-01-27 03:11 · Score: 2

I remember reading a story, which may well have been apocryphal, about organized crime and foreign agencies exploiting the old FBI carnivore e-mail intercept system to use for extortion and industrial espionage.

It seems to reason that if the NSA is compromising telecommunications protocols, having routers forward copies of data, stuffing radio transmitters in computer equipment, etc., then some enterprising third parties are going to piggy back on it for their own purposes. That, and the NSA can't possibly be the only players in town undermining the integrity of the system. It seems to me that we've enabled a new class of criminal information enterprise, not just by or for the NSA.

In soviet russia by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 03:11 · Score: 0

Oh, wait...

Re:Industrial Espionage Begins With The Brain by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 03:16 · Score: 0

A more modern process is to use reflected RF to decode the internal thoughts of key industry members, such as scientists, executives and board members.

To the future cybernetic citizens of the world: You can not say we did not warn you!

Thanks again Snowden by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 03:32 · Score: 0

For defending the rights of the American citizen by revealing this. What next?

Re:Gee... by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 03:32 · Score: 0

Actually they do since economic success falls under the rubric of national security, given that without a functioning economy your military won't amount to much.. So yes all countries do it.

And it's odd that such an obvious component of any intelligence agency is even news worthy.

airbus is NOT a good example. by WindBourne · 2014-01-27 03:53 · Score: 1

NSA was watching Saudi arabians and found airbus offering illegal bribes. That was then reported. It was not stealing tech from them.

--
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.

Available outside of Germany? by kry73n · 2014-01-27 03:56 · Score: 1

Is it available outside of Germany? I currently have problems watching it from Hong Kong.

Maybe someone with access can put it on youtube? http://media.ndr.de/progressiv...

Re:Available outside of Germany? by I)_MaLaClYpSe_(I · 2014-01-27 04:57 · Score: 1

There you are: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGdefa5Gw3c

This isn't news by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 04:00 · Score: 0

What next?
Edward Snowden says the earth is round, gravity pulls mostly down, and the moon landing was faked?

Sheesh

And... by Ronin+Developer · 2014-01-27 04:22 · Score: 1

This is a surprise? Why?

All nations with the resources do it for their National security - especially, if it means the difference between another nation gaining a technological edge or being able to cripple your own ability to defend yourself.

One of the best known examples? Read up on how the Soviets copied the B-29 to create the TU-4 - rivet for rivet. Very interesting how it was done.

The French have made it illegal to encrypt communications by companies operating within their borders. Makes the collection process all the much easier as there is no expectation of privacy.

How about the countries that are producing "brand" or cutting-edge drugs without recognizing the patents (nor paying subsequent royalties) owned the pharmaceutical companies in the interest of "National Security" or health?

To say this is a US only problem is simply naive.

Re:And... by Nyder · 2014-01-27 05:14 · Score: 0

This is a surprise? Why?
All nations with the resources do it for their National security - especially, if it means the difference between another nation gaining a technological edge or being able to cripple your own ability to defend yourself.
One of the best known examples? Read up on how the Soviets copied the B-29 to create the TU-4 - rivet for rivet. Very interesting how it was done.
The French have made it illegal to encrypt communications by companies operating within their borders. Makes the collection process all the much easier as there is no expectation of privacy.
How about the countries that are producing "brand" or cutting-edge drugs without recognizing the patents (nor paying subsequent royalties) owned the pharmaceutical companies in the interest of "National Security" or health?
To say this is a US only problem is simply naive.
Wow, using France as a comparison. You couldn't use a real country that anyone actually cares about?

--
Be seeing you...

Don't patent laws still apply? by sinequonon · 2014-01-27 04:45 · Score: 1

The consideration of whether an idea should be considered "stolen" depends in good part on what use it is put. Regardless of whether economic secrets are being stolen and by whom, patent laws should still apply. Hopefully, that will have to serve to protect a company's investment in their R&D, as long as the law is applied at an international level. Even with hopes for patent reform, there is clearly still a need.

--
-Bob-

After the cold war ended by alfredo · 2014-01-27 05:00 · Score: 1

After the wall came down in Berlin, GHW Bush commented that the intel focus would shift away from military targets to economic targets. I don't remember the exact words, but that shift in focus stuck in my mind. The cold war was an economic war. The USSR didn't have the infrastructure to survive an extended global war and we knew it. All we needed to do was keep the pressure on, force them to spend more on their military and wait. Osama bin Laden tried that same tactic on us and GW Bush fell for it hook line and sinker.

--
photosMy Photostream

Re:After the cold war ended by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 05:33 · Score: 0

You assume that this espionage was directed against foreign economic infrastructure. And specifically that of our adversaries. If you work for Boeing and you'd like a heads up on what Lockheed is up to, no problem. If you have a buddy inside the NSA, the data is yours for the taking.
What Snowden did has been going on for decades. The only anomaly is that the product of his activity ended up at the Guardian instead of in some companies 'research' files.
Re:After the cold war ended by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 07:59 · Score: 0

Good point but we lost the cold war too. They ran out of money and we didn't but both had increased corruption from the military oriented economies that resulted - we are just falling apart from within politically and they couldn't get to that yet (although they arguably had a huge head start with the corruption problem, it was still economics that did them in.)
I remember something similar about GHW Bush; but it didn't surprise me because we've been using the CIA and military for economic interests for century and it increased greatly after WW2 (I'd guess Nixon, but I'm not sure how far it went on before that.)

obvious by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 05:06 · Score: 0

snowden states the obvious and all nations do this - Americans got caught with their hand in the jar - what people should complain about is instead of spending billions on the poor the government will know. have to rebuild its spy network

NSA job is to spy - get over it - snow just cost every American about 10k more each on debt compounded annually

we the non Americans thank him - helps speed the America decline

Cisco by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 05:16 · Score: 0

Cisco already announced that they are moving R&D to Canada to prevent this type of spying.

Link in OV on Youtube is here by I)_MaLaClYpSe_(I · 2014-01-27 05:33 · Score: 1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGdefa5Gw3c

Re:Link in OV on Youtube is here by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 07:41 · Score: 0

down already, damn those copyright claims

Assuming no malice by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 05:42 · Score: 0

Assuming that the NSA is abstaining from such espionage as it claims, then few reasons for grabbing all this information are mission planning, writing new Stuxnet worms for Siemens Worm Platform (tm) and education for CIA and FBI.

2016? We don't need no stinkin' elections by !-!appy_!!arnian · 2014-01-27 05:53 · Score: 1

Obama could (might?) just ask Russia to take over - Putin has all the knowledge of our govt that he needs to run our country

--
To serve only self is the ultimate slavery.

A possible for reason for spying by Zontar_Thing_From_Ve · 2014-01-27 06:04 · Score: 1

The spying, if it is actually happening, may not necessarily be for the benefit of American industry. German companies have been known to have secret deals through intermediaries to sell banned technology to countries that their own government does not legally allow them to sell directly to because of international sanctions. Anybody here watch the American TV series "Breaking Bad"? It featured a crystal meth drug empire that used a German conglomerate to provide the equipment necessary to run the secret lab used for much of the series. There is some chance that basically the NSA just wants to know if Siemens is selling things in violation of UN rules to countries like Iran and North Korea.

TPP Death by ThatsNotPudding · 2014-01-27 06:16 · Score: 2

I am fervently hoping Greenwald, et al expose enough proof of US crimes against other countries to totally and effectively destroy TPP and any other secret hell-spawn akin to it.

Re:Industrial Espionage Begins With The Brain by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 06:25 · Score: 0

Oh come on -1 offtopic really? This should be +3 Funny at the least! Pure sarcastic humour at its best.

English transcript by kry73n · 2014-01-27 07:23 · Score: 1

http://www.tagesschau.de/snowd...

basically... by Mr_Nitro · 2014-01-27 07:34 · Score: 1

we are discovering more and more blatantly how the USA are actually the bad guys in disguise.... typical to show a baby bum face publicly and do the worst shit behind curtains..... oh well.

This is a correct statement by Mr Snowden by WillAffleckUW · 2014-01-27 07:44 · Score: 1

But, quite frankly, we've always done that.

Always.

The problem is: so does everyone else.

Especially China.

--
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --

Stuxnet by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 08:50 · Score: 0

We knew this, didn't we? The NSA doesn't even have to be stealing secrets to hurt the country we're spying on. For something like Stuxnet, it seems likely that we would want to steal everything we can learn about their systems so that we can use that to target Iranian facilities. I like that we have this capability.

"Edward Snowden Says NSA Engages In Industrial .." by hackus · 2014-01-27 09:06 · Score: 1

No really?

This is just another example of how Edward Snowden, alleged "traitor" is leaking information that everyone already knew for the past 20 years.

The guy is a traitor, because the government and its cronies breaks their own laws at will, and they are upset he laid it out so explicitly and documented.

What I think makes him a hero is that the level of corruption is so gigantic, it threatens the human race with final war and now it can be stopped by prosecuting Bush, Obama, Cheny and all of these congressional leaaders who voted for the Bankster bailouts in 2007, the Patriot Act and all of this mischief they have created.

That includes the slow motion destruction of our way of life, through the destruction of our currency, the rigging of just about everything institutionalized by their minions including Libor.

We need to have a PURGE before the damage these people have done really results in a major event...which many of these people are planning so they can crash the system and blame actors for all of their criminal activity.

FALSE FLAG coming near a city near you.

-Hack

--
Got Geometrodynamics? Awe, too hard to figure out? Too bad.

Industrial espionage leads to industrial sabotage by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 10:39 · Score: 0

THAT'S how Israel got the algorithm to Siemens SCADA valve control systems targeted by the Stuxnet virus!!! Then they used it on Siemens SCADA controllers at Iran's uranium-enriching centrifuges at Natanz and then on Siemens SCADA controllers at Japan's nuclear reactors at Fukushima Daiichi! That's why Chancellor Angela Merkel shut down Germany's nuclear reactors so abruptly after Fukushima melted down. THAT'S why technicians at Fukushima didn't know that the reactor had begun to overheat, even though the normal function in an emergency is to shut down and the cooling system valves would open automatically. We learned that was part of the design of Stuxnet after the same thing happened in Iran.

Hmmmm.... who would have a motive to do such....oh....

Re:*Not* news -- no kidding it's TIMOTHY by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 10:46 · Score: 0

Yes. For example, everyone already knows that terrorists are out to get us, and only the brave heroes in NSA, DHS and other such agencies stand between them and us. Should they falter, or be stabbed in the back, we are all doomed. Doomed!

Or at least that's the impression one gets from reading your posts here on Slashdot. So no shortage thanks to you.

Re:*Not* news -- no kidding it's TIMOTHY by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 14:30 · Score: 0

Well there is one thing that everyone knows that is true, you are a pathetic shill!

Er, pot vs. kettle? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 14:32 · Score: 0

Snowdon himself has committed espionage openly and run to his handlers in Moscow/Peking to find safety. Let's feed him at polonium tea party soon.

Interview in English without geoblocking by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 18:12 · Score: 0

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_X...
or
http://vimeo.com/85155619

Re:Interview in English without geoblocking by Anonymous Coward · 2014-01-27 18:17 · Score: 0

and here https://archive.org/details/sn...

magnet link here by I)_MaLaClYpSe_(I · 2014-01-27 23:58 · Score: 1

magnet:?xt=urn:btih:3030b517cdb0cfe5a9fe14701cf31956e04c60f8&dn=Edward+Snowden+NDR+Interview+2014-1+English+version&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.openbittorrent.com%3A80&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.publicbt.com%3A80&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.istole.it%3A6969&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.ccc.de%3A80&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Fopen.demonii.com%3A1337

maybe by cyberhooligan77 · 2014-01-28 05:32 · Score: 1

I know, It sounds weird, and I dont have ways to probe it (And I do believe I should have), only some "hunchs", and observations.

Im a developer outside U.S., I have reasons to believe, that some U.S. companies such as M$ & I.B.M., togheter with U.S. goverment, does practices industtial spyonage, sometimes aided with local goverment agencies.

The story is like this. I have work in several companies with Internet access. Sometimes, I do some software, used by my employeer.
Sometimes, at my employeer's, company, I have some free time, & I develop some libraries, controls, utilities, that may be used,
later, for my employeer's software, or as free-or-open software, or other programs, all with my employeer's approval.

Some years ago (about 10), I a started to make some control library, where a local copy of a database,
in a Desktop Application, was stored, including queries, & relationships.

The main idea is having a partial, dynamic copy of a database, based in queries & views,
instead of static tables. This occured when .NET, I called my controls "DataGroups",
basically too much similar to .NET "Datasets".

Maybe coincidence. There is more.

About the same time, I wanted to emulate a Web Explorer.
It was done, at free time, in a PC with internet access, with Delphi 4 & Dephi 6.
I develop the HTML scanner & parser, & used a Client-Sever, Desktop Application, not a browser.

The application took the controls from a dynamic HTML like file, at running time,
and put controls in a form, like a web page. It was meant to be an HTML editor, & viewer,
altought, I consider it, to use it, as dynamic control generation, but, discarded, because it required,
too much resources.

To make short the story, it was like Windows Presentation Foundation,
been a Desktop Application, using a dynamic HTML tags file.

Sorry, I knows it sounds too much "conspiracy paranoid".
But, when it happens too often, & heard or read similar stories,
You may think: "Something fishy is going on here" ...

Cheers.

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Edward Snowden Says NSA Engages In Industrial Espionage

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