Slashdot Mirror


Anti-Polygraph Instructor Who Was Targeted By Feds Goes Public

George Maschke writes "Last year, the McClatchy newspaper group reported on a federal criminal investigation into individuals offering instruction on how to pass polygraph tests. The ongoing investigation, dubbed 'Operation Lie Busters,' has serious free speech implications, and one of the two men known to have been targeted is presently serving an 8-month prison term. The other, Doug Williams, himself a former police polygrapher, has this week for the first time gone public with the story of federal agents' February 2013 raid on his office and home (video). Williams, who has not been charged with a crime but remains in legal jeopardy, is selling his story in an e-book. Public interest website AntiPolygraph.org (which I co-founded) has published a synopsis."

44 of 197 comments (clear)

  1. First rule of passing a Lie Detector test by jennatalia · · Score: 5, Funny

    Don't talk about passing a lie detector test.

    1. Re:First rule of passing a Lie Detector test by Joce640k · · Score: 3, Informative

      Don't talk about passing a lie detector test.

      You jest, but that actually *is* the first rule of passing a lie detector test.

      In the 'informal' pre-polygraph chat they'll usually fish for how much you know about polygraphs.

      --
      No sig today...
  2. Total Obedience is Required ! by Taco+Cowboy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "Don't ask me no questions and I won't tell you no lies."

    I am afraid to the government of United Police State of America this is no longer enough.

    What is going on in the supposedly Western Democracy nowadays is that it is marching towards fascism. From the United States to France to England to many more lapdog countries, fascist tendency of the various governmental entities have arisen.

    Used to be that one is innocent until found guilty, but no longer.

    These days, we are all guilty, no matter if we have done everything. We are so guilty that they can charge us with _anything_ they like.

    In other words, the difference between Russia/China and the Western Democracy is shrinking, and shrinking fast.

    But at the very least, China and Russia never pretend to be "democratic".

    --
    Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
    1. Re:Total Obedience is Required ! by amiga3D · · Score: 3, Informative

      "People's" Republic of China?

      They're way worse than what we've got here. I don't like the current trend but it's a long slide down the slope yet to go.

    2. Re:Total Obedience is Required ! by dbIII · · Score: 4, Informative

      They are improving while other places are going the other way, which is making it difficult to say "as bad as China" even though the crossover point has not yet been reached.

    3. Re:Total Obedience is Required ! by LordLimecat · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I take it youve never been to Russia or China.

      I guess my objection to the comparison isnt that we dont have major problems, its that when someone busts out a comparison like that it makes a mockery of the whole discussion. I would rather the real problems be discussed than that we get hysterical to the point that noone wants to hear about it anymore. I would rather, for example, that instead of hordes of people claiming that we're no more free than china, that people instead pressed their representatives for real action regarding NSA overreach.

    4. Re:Total Obedience is Required ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Just FYI, from past posts taco is clearly a chinese refugee that obtained US citizenship. So he's more qualified than most to say whether or not this is becoming People's Republic of America or whatever. Possibly even moreso than me as a lifelong US citizen. They're only worse in that there is no shame in what they do, but otherwise we are the worse ones. By building an illusion of "land of the free". But then again at least we have shame in that.

    5. Re:Total Obedience is Required ! by students · · Score: 2

      Both China and Russia hold elections. They pretend to a degree.

    6. Re:Total Obedience is Required ! by dunkelfalke · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Well, what about yourself? Have you ever been in Russia, for example? Doesn't seem to be the case, to be honest.

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    7. Re:Total Obedience is Required ! by SerpentMage · · Score: 2

      The US has like in your comments always had a checkered past when it came towards certain "non-freedom" acts. I think we could agree that all countries have certain tendencies. However, and this is the big however, there were always moments when the Americans stood up and said enough is enough. I am not saying it cannot happen again. What is different this time is that you have an America divided and polarized. Look at voting, that is absolutely insane.

      You are either an MSNBC friend and hater of Fox news or vice versa. Fox news spreads the propaganda and calls it the news. Yes yes the "left" is doing this as well. You have movements in the US where and this is really funny in a sad way, that it is legal to shoot somebody and kill them because they "looked" at you the wrong way (I am looking at your Florida). It is acceptable to wave a machine gun around and accumulate rounds and rounds of bullets.

      Take a step back remove the American flag, the cheering and so on. What would this be representative of? I will tell you a third world developing country run by a pseudo dictatorship. Americans are not willing to step up and admit this. Sure there are some that say things need to be changed, but they as in America on the whole doesn't want to change. It is always the "other" person who has to change not them. EXCUSE ME the "other" person is you.

      Call the hippies lazy, dirty, smelly, etc. BUT they did change America and in many aspects for the better. Where are the Americans willing to stand up now? Oh yeah they are being branded as idiots and lazy slobs and one step away from Nazi-dom because they don't like having a two tier bus system. Again step back remove the constitution, remove the flag and think hard about what the country compares to. I always say if it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, its an effen duck.

      BTW I am not happy or shadenfreude as I am a foreigner. I am actually quite sad and disappointed for I like America... America the concept is a very nice place...

      --

      "You can't make a race horse of a pig"
      "No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
    8. Re:Total Obedience is Required ! by kilfarsnar · · Score: 5, Insightful

      how is this paranoid bullshit "insightful?"

      "marching towards fascism?"

      really?

      this get marked as +5?

      taco cowboy, that fucking moron, is completely ignorant of history. what about the house un american activities committee? the alien and sedition acts? the espionage act of 1917?

      every fucking generation thinks that they invented crises and history. yes, these events agianst he lie detector crusaders are important. yes, we should always be vigilant to protect our rights. but no, the usa is not "marching towards fasism" in any sense more meaningful than "I am marching towards china" when i walk eastward to the store.

      fuck you, taco cowboy, and fuck the historically clueless goth alarmists who marked you up.

      I'm sorry, who the fuck are you, again? If you are over 40 and don't see the direction this country has taken over the last 15 years or so, I don't know what to tell you. Yes, we had a House Un-American Activities Committee. Now we have a Department of Homeland Security with nebulous jurisdiction and authority. And we call our country the "Homeland". We never did that before 2001. We have militarized police and "enemy combatant" status. We have the NSA looking at all of our communication.

      Like I said, if you are over 40 or so, you should be able to see the change. This is not the same country we grew up in.

      --
      "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
  3. This is why people hate the USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If your own government does this to its own people, we can expect way fucking worst things to happen to us foreigners.

    I hope I never have to go to the USA again. Nice people on the east and west coasts, but the ones who control everything are crazy motherfuckers.

  4. Divided Opinions by CopaceticOpus · · Score: 5, Funny

    Critics of this federal investigation have claimed that it has the potential to trample free speech, create an atmosphere of fear, and could lead to the wrongful imprisonment of those that the government deems troublemakers.

    However, unnamed sources within the government have taken a more positive outlook, stating that this investigation has the potential to trample free speech, create an atmosphere of fear, and could lead to the wrongful imprisonment of those that they deem troublemakers.

  5. The article makes this an intriguing issue by GodfatherofSoul · · Score: 3, Insightful

    He wasn't just teaching people how to pass a lie detector. He was instructing people (undercover agents) who he knew would be committing all kinds of illegal acts including statutory rape and drug smuggling. That's where you cross a fuzzy line between crime and blissful ignorance. In the same way, if I walk into a pawn shop and buy a cheap TV, it's not a crime. But, if the owner tells me it's cheap because his cousin stole it, then I'm engaging in an illegal transaction..

    --
    I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
    1. Re:The article makes this an intriguing issue by Charliemopps · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Ugh... you're missing the plain and simple truth that polygraphs DONT WORK. They are complete horseshit, like Organic food, Chiropractors and astrology. If the FBI declared that only "Leos" could be entrusted with drug cases, and this guy was teaching people how to trick the FBI into thinking they were "Leos" so they could steal the drugs, would he be helping them in any way? No, because astrology is bullshit.

    2. Re:The article makes this an intriguing issue by TrollstonButterbeans · · Score: 4, Funny

      " He was instructing people (undercover agents) who he knew would be committing all kinds of illegal acts including statutory rape and drug smuggling."

      This raises a bigger question --- if these undercover agents are known to be going out and statutory raping people, why aren't the Feds arresting them?

      I am rather disappointed and concerned that these drug smuggling, statutory raping, undercover agents are getting off scot free --- when the Feds should be arresting these undercover scoundrels who are trying to beat these polygraph tests.

      --
      Priest: "Universe from nothing, no laws of physics, sped up time"+ huge discrepancies. Creationism? No. Big Bang Theory
    3. Re:The article makes this an intriguing issue by Sique · · Score: 2

      No. Polygraph testing gets you a certain chance of passing (independent of your real intentions), and he just increased the chance of passing (still independent of your real intentions). So the intentions of the people who wanted to be taught passing the polygraph detector shouldn't play any role -- and if it was just so the own career is not spoiled by the results of a completely botched test. And in general: People who want to successfully work undercover have to have the ability to withstand an attempt to blow their cover -- including a completely erratic test like the polygraph detector. So I would call police officers trying to get educated how to keep calm in such a testing situation more fit for the undercover job than the others, which I guess might be somewhat too naive.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    4. Re:The article makes this an intriguing issue by Paul+Jakma · · Score: 2

      The lie detector test is based on ignorance. Teaching people how to pass it amounts to telling them the scientific truth about the polygraph's efficacy: It has none, so don't worry about it, and don't volunteer information.

      If it's a crime to tell the truth about pseudo-scientific quackery, then we're fucked.

      --
      I use Friend/Foe + mod-point modifiers as a karma/reputation system.
  6. Bin Laden by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    One of Bin Laden's goals was to turn the US into an oppressive country like the ones in the Arab World,

    Even after stating the goal, here we are going that way. It's amazing how easily people can be manipulated.

    1. Re:Bin Laden by l0ungeb0y · · Score: 2

      You do know who Mr. Laden's biggest backer and financier was don't you?
      It was the US Gov't. So of course we've "fallen for it".

  7. Show me ... by PPH · · Score: 4, Interesting

    .... the man and I will find you the crime.

    -- Lavrentiy Beria, Stalinâ(TM)s head of the secret police

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
    1. Re:Show me ... by Tokolosh · · Score: 2

      "If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him." - Cardinal Richelieu

      Three felonies a day: http://harveysilverglate.com/B...

      --
      Prove anything by multiplying Huge Number times Tiny Number
  8. Passing is easy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    To pass a lie detector test, you must 'believe' the lie is true. This uses the same form of imagination that actors use to give a performance. For the Human mind, both reality and memories of reality are but an illusion. We have no direct contact to the 'real world'. Our 'senses' are physical mechanisms of our body that are minds cannot directly perceive. An internal 'reality' is created using different types of memory, heavily processed versions of the data provided by our sense systems, and 'thought'.

    So, creating false realities through practice is child's play for most people. 'False' or alternate memories are trivially implanted if a person has pre-awareness of the lies they will need to tell. Training the imagination even allows for spontaneous false realities to be created in real-time.

    And then you have bio-feedback training, which means learning to consciously adjust breathing rates, heart rate, and sweat response. I recall this kind of thing was popular in the 60s, 70s and early 80s as a method for improving meditation and relaxation. It is not unexpected that when bio-feedback was a technique commonly known by the average sheeple, lie-detectors fell into disrepute, but now the term is probably unknown to most of you, the pseudo-science of lie detection has made a comeback.The 'usefulness' of lie-detectors is EXACTLY the same as the usefulness of those phony bomb detectors (made from novelty golf-ball detectors) that were in the news recently.

    Lie detectors are NOT used because they are accurate, but as tools of oppression when security theatre is used as an excuse to target 'enemies' of the State. Team Obama and Team Blair push such disgusting nonsense, so the incredibly evil abusive regimes that the UK and USA support can deploy the same pseudo-scientific equipment in their constant war against democracy activists, and use 'positive' results as an excuse for torture, imprisonment and execution. How many people do you think suffered the most horrifying ill-treatment because of the 'positive' results given by the fake bomb-detectors that MI6 distributed in Tony Blair's various war-zones?

    1. Re:Passing is easy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Easy methods to defeat lie detectors do not even require body/mind training so that you can present a "truthful" facade to the machine. One trick is to make all your responses correspond to extreme and erratic indicators of "lying," completely throwing off the baseline "normal." You clench internal muscles even when you're answering the "easy" initial calibration questions. This way, you don't even have to worry about maintaining perfect calm mind/body control when they spring an unexpected twist on you; go ahead and freak out, but the machine's readings will already be all over the place.

    2. Re:Passing is easy by tragedy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      To pass a lie detector test, you must 'believe' the lie is true.

      Actually, to pass a lie detector test, the tester must believe what you are saying is true. They're not objective tests.

  9. Re:if you know how a polygraph works... by R3d+M3rcury · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The idea is to create a concept of a "lie detector." Then you tell your suspect, "If you didn't do it, just take a 'lie detector' test. If that comes out clean, then you'll be off the hook. You can go home right away. No need to spend a few more hours sitting here with us going over this stuff over and over and over again."

    Plug him into the "lie detector." Ask him some questions. Then have the police come in and say, "The lie detector says you were lying. Why don't you tell us what really happened? We can be here all night until you decide to tell us the truth..."

  10. Polygraphs are bullshit. by jcr · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There's a reason they're not admissible in court.

    -jcr

    --
    The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
  11. faux objectivity FTW by epine · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Ugh... you're missing the plain and simple truth that polygraphs DONT WORK. They are complete horseshit ...

    No, you're missing the point.

    Imposing the polygraph protocol on the polygraph subject forces the polygraph subject into a highly disadvantaged mode of engagement. If the horseshitness of the polygraph test were to become the subject of public outrage, the powers-that-be would lose a valuable interrogation tactic.

    It runs deep. The cloud of uncertainty over being convicted by a fallible machine with no viable recourse or defense adds to the psychological stress of the subject. This effect would be greatly lessened if the damn thing actually worked. Basically the polygraph examiner gets to sit there and decide your fate in an elaborate ritual of faux objectivity.

    How could you say that this doesn't work? Faux objectivity practically bats clean-up in the fine-grinding mill of democratic disempowerment.

    Do you consent to a polygraph test?

    Absolutely, so long as I'm not forced to hang my head and grunt monosyllables.

    Are you refusing to take the polygraph test?

    No. I'm refusing the invasive, fucked up protocol that you've willingly elaborated around the idiotic, frightening wires. Wire me up, then engage me in normal conversation, eye to eye. Not my fault if your machine has no technical merit once stripped of the demeaning ritual. If that bugs you, work harder. Innovate. Get the captains of industry on the blower. To hear them tell it, they innovate twice a day and thrice on Saturdays. Surely simple eye contact does not exceed your far-reaching dystopian prowess?

    Hardly anyone would consent to answering questions within these bizarre strictures without the quasi-religious deference to the cult of the coloured wires. It's such a Milgramesque whitecoat scam, which nevertheless works a treat if your subject complies.

    1. Re:faux objectivity FTW by fishybell · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Basically the polygraph examiner gets to sit there and decide your fate in an elaborate ritual of faux objectivity.

      So the FBI read the handbook on giving an audit with an e-meter?

      --
      ><));>
    2. Re:faux objectivity FTW by El+Puerco+Loco · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That's not at all how they are used. They are treated as an objective and reliable instrument for revealing deception. They ask you some control questions, ones that they know you will answer truthfully and ones that they assume you will lie about. If your response to the real questions matches the ones that they figured you lied about, then they declare that you are lying, and you don't get whatever job or security clearance you applied for. If there wasn't enough differences in your physiological response between the assumed truth and lie responses to determine which is which, they declare it inconclusive and you don't get the job or security clearance you wanted. Despite the fact that numerous controlled studies have shown that they don't work at all, they are treated as infallible by the investigators. Otherwise squeaky clean applicants are denied police jobs all the time based on polygraph results. Yet somehow police corruption is still rampant.

  12. Re:Presently means 'soon' by Rob+the+Bold · · Score: 3, Interesting

    As in it will happen presently.

    Grrr.

    Merriam-webster.com states this in usage notes:

    Both senses ["without undue delay"] and ["at the present time"] are flourishing in current English, but many commentators have objected to sense 2 ["at the present time"]. Since this sense has been in continuous use since the 15th century, it is not clear why it is objectionable. Perhaps a note in the Oxford English Dictionary (1909) that the sense has been obsolete since the 17th century in literary English is to blame, but the note goes on to observe that the sense is in regular use in most English dialects. The last citation in that dictionary is from a 1901 Leeds newspaper, written in Standard English. Sense 2 is most common in contexts relating to business and politics (the fastest-rising welfare cost is Medicaid, presently paid by the states and cities — William Safire)

    The American Heritage Dictionary's note:

    Usage Note: An original meaning of presently was "at the present time; currently." That sense is said to have disappeared from the literary language in the 17th century, but it has survived in popular usage and is widely found nowadays in literate speech and writing. Still, there is a lingering prejudice against this use. The sentence General Walters is ... presently the United States Ambassador to the United Nations was acceptable to only 48 percent of the Usage Panel in the 1999 survey.

    And Random House Kernerman Webster's College Dictionary:

    The meaning “now” of presently dates back to the 15th century; it is currently in standard use in all varieties of speech and writing. The sense “soon” arose gradually during the 16th century. Strangely, it is the older sense “now” that usage guides sometimes object to. The two senses are rarely if ever confused. presently meaning “now” is most often used with the present tense (The professor is presently on sabbatical leave) and presently meaning “soon” often with the future tense (The supervisor will be back presently).

    In other words, there exists a small cadre of Grammar Nazis that are presently objecting to the original usage of "presently" for the sake of objecting. Because for an "obsolete" word, it's still getting pretty good mileage.

    --
    I am not a crackpot.
  13. You're of course assuming... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    That he wasn't working for the 'family business' all along, and that Bush's family hadn't been colluding with bin Laden's in order to bring exactly this about.

    With the WTC knocked down 3/5 of the tallest skyscrapers in the world are now Muslim, at least 1 of them was build by bin Laden construction firms, and between 'preferential access to oil' and Halliburton's recent relocation to Dubai, the whole situation begins seeming overly suspect. Nevermind the fact that 9/11 happened just in time to keep Bush from getting impeached (does anybody remember what his approval rating were looking like pre-9/11? Clinton had a high approval rating AFTER lying to congress about getting his dick sucked and spooging all over an intern's dress.)

    Combined with the fact that the majority of the terrorists were Saudis and none of them were Iraqi (were any Afghan?), it begs the question of why exactly our targets were chosen as such if not due to conspiracy.

    1. Re:You're of course assuming... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      They were all Saudis and Egyptians. Ironically, from perhaps the best "allies" the US had in the Arab world at the time. Egypt is of course different now.

    2. Re:You're of course assuming... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Iraq was in the neocon's crosshairs well before 9/11. See PNAC, which published manifestos to the effect that "if only there was some kind of crisis we could exploit to further the American hegemony, by force if need be". Signatories include folks like Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Armitage, and so on.

      Then 9/11 happened, with no Iraqi connection whatsoever, the manifestos were unpublished and lo and behold, the US administration -- now composed of pretty much the same people -- conned their country and the UN to start (another) illegal war. People were hanged for this kind of thing in the past.

      Please notice I am not arguing these people were somehow behind the attack, as some seem to think, or allowed it to happen despite intelligence that something was afoot.

      You might also like to read up on Carlyle Group which had a meeting on the morning of 9/11 which included folks like Bush Sr, James Baker, and apparently a member of the Bin Laden clan.

    3. Re:You're of course assuming... by Type44Q · · Score: 3, Interesting

      it begs the question of why exactly our targets were chosen as such if not due to conspiracy

      Not to mention, you've summed up only a mere ten percent or so of all the "inconvenient aspects" of the official version... but good luck reaching those with their heads stubbornly and desperately buried in the sand; their thoughts and beliefs on the subject (all having been well-vetted by the media for comfort-inducing consumption, of course) are profoundly resistant to common sense, the nature of cause and effect, physics/engineering knowledge... not to mention brutally-obvious lessons of history *cough* Reichstag fire *cough.

  14. The power that be has no shame ! by Taco+Cowboy · · Score: 5, Interesting

    They're only worse in that there is no shame in what they do, but otherwise we are the worse ones. By building an illusion of "land of the free". But then again at least we have shame in that.

    Tell you a secret ...
     
    We, the people, at least _some_ of us, are feeling shameful of the situation our country is marching towards.

    However, those who rule us, the ones in the Washington D.C. and _their_,/i> masters, not only do not feel any shame whatsoever, they actually are feeling so damn proud of their so-called accomplishment !

    Amongst the hundreds of Senators and Congressmen/women, how many of them actually feel that they have wronged the country, by voting in all these draconian laws, and by allowing the White House (no matter who's the POTUS), the NSA (and all the spooks) to violate the Constitution the way they have ?

    When I wrote to my representatives (state and federal) exclaiming my exasperation of what is happening in America and to the Americans, do you know what they told me ?

    The same old "We are doing that to fight terrorist" bullshit !

    --
    Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
    1. Re:The power that be has no shame ! by NoImNotNineVolt · · Score: 2
      A famous quote from the Vietnam War was a statement attributed to an unnamed U.S. officer by AP correspondent Peter Arnett in his writing about Bn Tre city on 7 February 1968:

      "It became necessary to destroy the town to save it", a United States major said today. He was talking about the decision by allied commanders to bomb and shell the town regardless of civilian casualties, to rout the Vietcong.

      This isn't much different than what we're being told today. "We need to sacrifice our freedom in order to preserve it."

      Write to them again. Keep writing to them until they understand that their justification makes no fucking sense.

      --
      Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
  15. You may be surprised to know who's the REAL BOSS by Taco+Cowboy · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Do you know who financed the invasion of Iraq ?

    The Saudis.

    Yes, our boys and girls who serve in the Army, Navy, Marine and Air Force of the United States of America, went to fight a war in Iraq, because the Saudis are paying for it.

    In other words, our military became a mercenary force, at least in the Desert Shied / Desert Storm era.

    --
    Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
  16. Re:Presently means 'soon' by Shadow+of+Eternity · · Score: 2

    Pretty much every "rule" of grammar that people get angry over has no factual basis. Starting a sentence with "and" or "but" dates back to the equivalent of a miss manners column, and the "split infinitive" is based on a combination of self-righteousness and total ignorance of the fact that infinitives were one word in latin but already split in english.

    --
    A bullet may have your name on it but splash damage is addressed "To whom it may concern."
  17. Re:if you know how a polygraph works... by Ihlosi · · Score: 3, Informative
    it only takes about 30 seconds to think up ways to circumvent it, which is why they aren't permissible in court.

    The reason why they're not permissible in court doesn't have anything to do with ways of circumventing them. It's that they do not work as advertised in the first place.

  18. You've brought up a very interesting point ! by Taco+Cowboy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    In stead, let's compare with the US of, say, three decades ago -- when there were still two superpowers and the US had to at least pretend to be the good guys, to maintain support of its allies and at least some good will on the part of the non-aligned bloc.

    I arrived at USA some thirty-odd years ago. At that time, for me at least, USA was a country where liberty of the citizens were respected.

    If what you said is true... that is, USA did all that to gain support from its allies and to portray to the world that USA is the "Good Guy", then what about now ?

    Does it mean that USA no longer has to pretend to be that "Good Guy" anymore ? That it can start wantonly violating the liberty of anybody it wants ?

    If that turns out to be true, then USA no longer has the authority to criticize _anybody_else_ regarding human rights, regarding liberty, regarding democracy, regarding so many things that USA used to stand for.

    Can you comprehend what kind of world we are living in now ?

    I ran away from China precisely because they did not (and still do not) respect the liberty of the citizen. If ever USA becomes a place just like China, I do not know where else people can aspire to be, if they were to run away from tyranny !

    --
    Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
    1. Re:You've brought up a very interesting point ! by erikkemperman · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Does it mean that USA no longer has to pretend to be that "Good Guy" anymore ? That it can start wantonly violating the liberty of anybody it wants ?

      Well, that is sort of what it looks like from where I'm standing.

      --
      Gosh, thanks. That must be why the other ships call me Meatfucker -- GCU Grey Area (Eccentric)
  19. Organic food by fyngyrz · · Score: 2

    Organic food is not about your health, it's about the health of the farm on which it is grown

    No, it's about marketing high priced consumables to people scared to death of chemical names and with absolutely no sense of how much of what is a problem, or not.

    but we *need* to change the exploitative way of creating our food to make it sustainable in the long run.

    Again, no we don't. What we need is either more ag production, or (lots) better distribution, or (lots) less population. Going back to pre-industrial farming methods is (a), a pipe dream, (b), not called for in any way, shape or form, or (c) even on the trend line, which is steadily going precisely the other way.

    Let me just point something out. In countries with highly industrialized ag, life spans are significantly longer than in the past. This is not just a consequence of more food, it is also a consequence of the quality of the food. It is also a consequence of our learning how to use preservatives, pesticides, and manipulate genetics. These are all good things, and the proof is in the burgeoning, aging populations that consume ag products that arise from these technologies.

    "Organic food" is mostly marketing scam, with the remaining value just... food. You want something to be concerned about? There's plenty to go around. From our deteriorating political situation to the various wars of aggression and the witch hunts -- drugs, sexuality, etc. -- I'm sure you can find something of actual merit where applying your shoulder to the wheel doesn't simply prop up a useless industry.

    --
    I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
  20. Do you know what the price ***WE*** paid ? by Taco+Cowboy · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The Saudis financed the war against Saddam Hussein with cash (actually, cash they got when they sold their oil to us).

    And do you know what we paid with ?

    We paid with the LIVES of our American boys and girls.

    We paid with THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS of ruined lives (those who were killed in the war, and those who came back with bodily and/or psychologically injuries)

    And most importantly, we paid with the REPUTATION of the United States of America by telling ***BOLD FACE LIE*** to the world that Saddam Hussein had a nuclear bomb.

    The people in Syria today suffered unnecessarily because of that fucking lie which has made the world suspicious of America.

    Nobody would believe the US anymore !!

    --
    Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !