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25% of Charter Schools Owe Their Soul To the Walmart Store

theodp writes "Among the billionaires who helped Bill Gates pave the way for charter schools in WA was Walmart heiress Alice Walton. The Walton Family Foundation spent a whopping $158+ million in 2012 on what it calls 'systemic K-12 education reform,' which included $60,920,186 to 'shape public policy' and $652,209 on 'research and evaluation.' Confirming the LA Times' speculation about its influence, the Walton Foundation issued a press release Wednesday boasting it's the largest private funder of charter school 'startups,' adding that it has supported the opening of 1 in 4 charter schools in the U.S. since 1997 through its 1,500 'investments.' But as some charter school kids have learned the hard way, what the rich man giveth, he can also taketh away. For the time being, though, it looks like America's going to continue to depend on the tax-free kindness of wealthy strangers to educate its kids. For example, while it was nice to see the value of Shop Class recognized, the White House on Monday called on businesses, foundations and philanthropists to fund proposed 'Maker Spaces' in schools and libraries. Hey, when the U.S. Secretary of Education turns to corporate sponsors and auctions to fund his Mother's afterschool program for kids of low-income families in the President's hometown, don't look for things to change anytime soon."

233 comments

  1. Love the quotes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Doesn't it make the author smart?

    1. Re:Love the quotes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How do you mean? I don't understand.

    2. Re:Love the quotes by Luckyo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Good parenting means not letting your public schools become shit and not letting corporations take over your education system via backdoor like this.

    3. Re:Love the quotes by 0123456 · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Public schools will always be shit, because they exist for the benefit of the government and teachers, not the kids.

    4. Re:Love the quotes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Whereas private schools exist solely for the benefit of the kids, and have no need to make money or pay employees?

      There are certainly big problems with many public schools; I was lucky enough to go to a very good one, but the best school in one of the best school districts being good only highlights the problems. But what do you suggest if you see public schooling as only existing to benefit teachers and government? Religious, charity schools?

    5. Re:Love the quotes by mattmarlowe · · Score: 5, Insightful

      No.

      Good parenting means taking _complete responsibility_ for your childs education. If your public school is awesome, great - but that only goes a little way. The culture, values, education, and effort/commitment of the parents has always been the number one predictor of a childs future academic success. Public schools are also limited in what they are allowed to teach your child - forced to comply with what is polically correct, what politicians and businesses have managed to redefine the subjects and ideas to study as, and what the local/state/federal government have compromised as the textbooks and teachers that your kid will interact with. These are usually far from the best choice which you learn about in great detail if you go and investigate on your own and then put together your own educational plan which you implement via home schooling, careful selection of private schools, or selective hiring of tutors.

      Having kids was never supposed to be about the state taking over most of the responsibility for education, or for being a gloried childcare center because both parents work, or something that could be handled without careful planning and ensuring one had the necessary resources ahead of time. Politicians and the public can talk all they want about improving public schools and overall childhood education, but the further responsibility and teaching moves away from responsibile active parents - the worse the result will always be. We've had a 100 year slide away from families and responsibile parenting and nothing is going to be fixed in education until we reverse it.

    6. Re: Love the quotes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Eh, the public high school I went to was pretty good, certainly produced many good graduates that are doing well now. NW suburbs of Chicago. Many parents even sent their kids to the public school instead of the rather prestigious catholic school nearby.

    7. Re:Love the quotes by Microlith · · Score: 1

      And here we have an example of a "self-fulfilling prophesy."

    8. Re:Love the quotes by bondsbw · · Score: 0

      Good parenting means doing what it takes to make your child succeed in spite of teachers, government, corporations, or any other environmental circumstances.

      So stop blaming everyone other than parents for shitty parenting. Parenting is life... teaching is just a job.

      --
      All my liberal friends think I'm a conservative, all my conservative friends think I'm a liberal.
    9. Re:Love the quotes by marcgvky · · Score: 0

      Alice has nothing to do with Walmart. How does Luckyo equate her donations as a corporate take-over? Me thinks Luckyo is a good union steward.... or a simple minded person that doesn't understand how competition can force public schools to step up their game. Of course, government / municipal employees don't want to be stretched, on their 30 year journey toward retirement.

    10. Re:Love the quotes by JDAustin · · Score: 1

      Haven't you heard? Corporations are already taking over the ed system via common core.

    11. Re:Love the quotes by n8_f · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Sounds like a horribly inefficient allocation of resources. Even wolves spread teaching amongst the pack.

    12. Re:Love the quotes by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 2

      Or educated by Alice to have the mathematical skills needed to accept a job with such low pay that you need to go on food stamps.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    13. Re: Love the quotes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I get the feeling the most important thing is not individual parents, but the culture of the community. There are plenty of cases of genius children where people all what the parents did, and the parents say nothing, they were barely even around or cared about the kid at all most of the time. Nevertheless, kids need to learn from someone, perhaps parents, books, friends, friends'parents, teachers, preachers, other community members, etc. A few good influences can go a long way, even if it isn't the kids' parents doing it, and ultimately it will enrich the entire community.

    14. Re:Love the quotes by mattmarlowe · · Score: 1

      Most states allows groups of parents in a neighborhood to group together and form homeschool co-ops. This can significantly reduce costs and save time - but the tradeoff decision should be made by the parent based on what they think is the best interest of the child. In any case, public schools really are just one option among dozens and there is no real reason why it should be the default - especially these days with the huge amount of educational resources available online or via amazone or various community groups.

      Parents only have a limited number of years to set the entire trajectory for their childs life - Taking 10 years off work to homeschool a child shouldn't be something that unusual - and, if more parents just took the time to investigate the education options available and what could be taught via a customized curriculum tailored to the child - I'd expect we'd see much higher overall academic achievement, stronger families, and more realistic/better balanced kids.

    15. Re:Love the quotes by albacrankie · · Score: 1

      Thanks for that. A genuinely intelligent comment.

    16. Re:Love the quotes by sjames · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And good statecraft means making sure the population is well educated. Be it through strong public schools or making sure parents have the time, energy, and resources to educate their children themselves.

    17. Re:Love the quotes by wisnoskij · · Score: 2

      Taking an interest in your kids is now an "inefficient allocation of resources"?

      --
      Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    18. Re:Love the quotes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When corporations outsource duties that can be performed with economies of scale by specialists we applaud them.

    19. Re:Love the quotes by Oligonicella · · Score: 1

      Hardly. A better analogy would be if wolves let the coyotes teach their cubs. Teachers are *not* part of my "pack" (read family). They are people who have jobs, barely anything more.

    20. Re:Love the quotes by mattmarlowe · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Public school teachers are all well and good, but from the Parent perspective (who has the strongest interest in the education of their child):
      * The parent has no control over which specialist/teacher is chosen. In fact, in many school districts, the assignment of students to classes isn't known until 5pm on the Friday before the first week of school. This just hammers in that the child will be forced to attend the school assigned classroom regardless of the parent's interests or concerns about the teacher.
      * The parent has little to no control over what is taught in the class - and has little ability to protest or take their child out if they find some material offensive or inappropriate.
      * The school sets the emphasis on the various subjects, which might be completely opposite of what the parent believes is correct for his child.
      * Even if a parent is willing to work with the child when he comes home from school on those areas he/she wants to emphasize or reinforce, typically the child will have other conflicting homework or be worn out - simply lose his creativity after attending public school for many years.
      * Sometimes the parent believes the teacher/school is actually teaching wrong information, or the child is being exposed to bad influences/culture - How much time does the parent spend every week deprogramming their child when he/she could have been teaching/reinforcing instead?

      Taking active direct control of the childs education by reading up, becoming familiar with educational topics and curriculums, which books are good/bad, what teaching philosophies work/etc and then choosing the right educational venue (public, private, tutor, home school, coop) would seem to be a better approach.

      But honestly, a lot of parents are afraid of homeschooling because they think they couldn't stand being around their child all day or that they just can't teach effectively....or that the child is somehow losing out. For grades K-8, it honest is not that difficult and with a larger family and some careful planning there is no issue with socialization. And just 2-4hrs/day of direct 1-on-1, or 1-2 education time between a parent and child easily matches or surpases what a child learns by being one out of 30 students during 5-7hrs of public school. All home schooling really requires is an educated parent with a reasonable amount of time, modest resources, and the drive/commitment to make it work. As for specialists, I'm currently home schooling my 3rd and 5th graders and will consider exposing them to community colleges professors or dedicated online classes when they get to high school for those subjects that need substantial expertise.

    21. Re:Love the quotes by ukemike · · Score: 1

      Taking 10 years off work to homeschool a child shouldn't be something that unusual

      Yeah maybe it shouldn't, but seriously how many people do you know that have enough savings or income from a single parent to take a 10 year vacation?!? Personally I don't expect that I'm going to get a whole 10 years of retirement.

      --
      -- QED
    22. Re:Love the quotes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Taking an interest in your kids =/= what the GP post presented.

    23. Re:Love the quotes by godxile · · Score: 1

      That's true and false all depending on who you're looking at.

    24. Re:Love the quotes by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      It's intelligent to recommend parents take 10 years off working to educate their children? I personally think that working towards better schools and working (and saving for college and beyond for the children) is more important than micromanaging their education. A few hours every day can "fix" anything learned during the day. Even if school was free daycare, it's still better than quitting for 10 years.

    25. Re:Love the quotes by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      a simple minded person that doesn't understand how competition can force public schools to step up their game.

      Competition can't improve public schools. The public schools aren't allowed to compete, so they've never had a chance to try.

      Name a single charter school that accepts *every* applicant. When that happens, then we can talk. The rules are not even close between public schools (not allowed to expel anyone, short of a conviction of a violent felony against a school employee), and a charter school (accepts only "qualified" students, and keeps numbers to a preset level by rejecting/expelling unwanted students).

    26. Re:Love the quotes by DaHat · · Score: 2

      not allowed to expel anyone, short of a conviction of a violent felony against a school employee

      I think you have that backwards... in most public schools with a union, it's virtually impossible to fire a tenured teacher... while simply violating school district policy can get you expelled without any conviction.

    27. Re:Love the quotes by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Parents are pissed off that they can't fire teachers. But they don't want to have to justify the reasons (often "protecting" their little monsters from a teacher who demands homework be turned in or something just as offensive). And I know plenty of teachers fired, yes, union members. These days, all it takes is a suggestion of impropriety with a student. And yes, the "zero tolerance" policies are out of hand, but it's the only tool the schools are allowed. Give the schools some freedom, and they might be able to compete. But restricting them then complaining they don't succeed when actively working to hinder them is about the stupidest thing ever.

    28. Re:Love the quotes by Antonovich · · Score: 2

      Good statehood means formatting the populace to a defined set of memes and ways of thinking. Can you imagine if everyone actually took responsibility for their own thinking? It would be anarchy! People would actually give a shit because they would understand how things work instead of just delegating power to others and doing what they were told. People would demand transparency. People would demand democracy.

      It sounds like that would be a good thing... but I challenge anyone to show me a truly educated society of any more than a few thousand - any more and it just gets unworkable. Society is global today and that makes it completely impossible.

    29. Re:Love the quotes by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      In a proper setting, teaching is a calling.

    30. Re:Love the quotes by gnupun · · Score: 2

      Whereas private schools exist solely for the benefit of the kids, and have no need to make money or pay employees?

      But to make that money, they have to prove to the kids' parents that they provide value for that money, i.e., good education. There's no such requirement for public schools, so they can provide the bare minimum education because they have no competition. Yet another example where capitalism trumps communism.

    31. Re:Love the quotes by unitron · · Score: 1

      Public schools exist to protect property values by keeping the neighborhood from filling up with illiterates (hope I spelled that properly : - ), and by making neighborhoods more attractive to buy a house in because there are good schools nearby, and even for the purpose of turning out people better able to to be informed citizens, the better to choose wisely representatives and the path of the nation.

      Okay, admittedly that last part is utopian idealism that's being rapidly destroyed by big money buying congresscritters, but an uneducated populace will never fix that, or even know to fight it.

      --

      I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.

    32. Re: Love the quotes by gordo3000 · · Score: 1

      What are you talking about? There are lots of problems with public schools, but quality of education relative to 150 years ago when the state was not involved is not one of them.

      If you were educated back then you were unlikely to learn anything other than the minimum to support farming and reading. Your parents had none of the baseline knowledge to even consider privately tutoring you. Either that or you were born into wealth.

      Public schools have issues, but parents who don't care about their children's education have been around for a long time(and used to be a stunning majority), and luckily with mandatory public school those parents have a lot less influence than they used to and those ideas have been mostly wiped out.

    33. Re:Love the quotes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whereas private schools exist solely for the benefit of the kids, and have no need to make money or pay employees?

      But to make that money, they have to prove to the kids' parents that they provide value for that money, i.e., good education. There's no such requirement for public schools, so they can provide the bare minimum education because they have no competition. Yet another example where capitalism trumps communism.

      That's not an example, that's your assumption repeated as an anecdote. Public schools work well in most places, in part because people who become teaches want to teach. If it was just money that motivates people, there would be no teachers.

    34. Re:Love the quotes by AlphaWolf_HK · · Score: 2

      Whereas private schools exist solely for the benefit of the kids, and have no need to make money or pay employees?

      Why can't they do both? They already do seem to be doing a better job at both.

      --
      Careful with names containing L slashdot.org/~AiphaWolf_HK slashdot.org/~AlphaWoif_HK slashdot.org/~AiphaWoif_HK
    35. Re: Love the quotes by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1
      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    36. Re:Love the quotes by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      Strange how I live in a country where private schools are all but unheard of, and quality of our public schools is far greater than that of private schools across the US.

      How soon should we expect them to become shit, existing only for the benefit of the government and teachers? They're only gone the way they are for about 40 years as far as I know, and they've been fairly steadily improving over at least thirty of those.

    37. Re:Love the quotes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Strange you live in a country where if you drop your wallet someone will return it to you? America is not a homogeneous culture. Take a standup homogeneous culture like Japan or Northern Europe and you can run practically any social experiment there successfully. Not so in America. Try taking a walk at Barack Obama's old neighboorhod, 63rd and Woodland Avenue at night, and see how may blocks you go before you get mugged/raped/murdered.

    38. Re:Love the quotes by _Sharp'r_ · · Score: 1

      Name a single charter school that accepts *every* applicant. When that happens, then we can talk.

      Ok, Gateway Preparatory Academy (GPA). True, they only accept students who live in the State that chartered them, because otherwise the State doesn't pay, but they've accepted every student who has ever applied. That's because they haven't hit their State mandated cap on enrollment yet.

      Any other Charter school in the same State that hasn't hit the cap the State Board of Education is willing to pay for also accepts every student that applies. The only time they have a lottery is when they are no longer legally allowed to accept more students, because the State has set a limit on enrollment. The only preference allowed when they have a lottery is that the children of the people who founded the school may get a preference if that's written into the Charter. Typically that might affect a handful of kids, as the number of founders is usually half a dozen or less and their kids were all enrolled before the school filled up years later.

      Also, the Charter schools in the same State have the same rules for expulsion, special ed, etc... as the other public schools in the State. GPA has 2x the "average" special education enrollment and 2X the "average" gifted and talented enrollment.That's because personalized education attracts both ends of the spectrum.

      There may be other States where the rules are different, but I didn't found a Charter school in those States, so I wasn't required to become an expert on their school-related law. I do know the way things work in a few States, though, and non of them work they way you state.

      --
      The party of stupid and the party of evil get together and do something both stupid and evil, then call it bipartisan.
    39. Re:Love the quotes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      * The parent has little to no control over what is taught in the class - and has little ability to protest or take their child out if they find some material offensive or inappropriate.
      * The school sets the emphasis on the various subjects, which might be completely opposite of what the parent believes is correct for his child.

      The parent is free to pull their kids out of public school if they choose. They are free to home school them or send them to a private school or, say, a religious that enforces the religious indoctrination that parent in which they, through accident of birth, been indoctrinated. It is not the government's job to ensure poor people can pay for private schools. If you want to bitch about taxes, the left can whine about corporate welfare and military spending which takes a hell of a lot more from the public coffers than education does - this isn't the thread for that.

      The governments role in taxing and spending on education has been to:
      1) Free the parents up from childcare during the day so they can work in the "child labor" factories of 1900.
      2) Provide at least minimally labor to an economy that requires literacy in most jobs.
      3) Nominally, to ensure an educated electorate that will defend the principals on which it was established - though this last part has been under attack for since at least McCarthy.

    40. Re: Love the quotes by gordo3000 · · Score: 1

      actually helping to prove my point by getting testing that was given at the end of compulsory education as public schools were becoming common (and at least a portion of the population moved from one room school houses for the local farms to more structured environments).

      btw, I'm not saying the state is the sole purveyor of education and that a private system or local system can't do as well. I do believe perfectly good private school systems exist that provide education at this level. I'm merely saying that for the vast majority, the public school system was a boon, allowing them to answer questions like the ones in those tests.

      Whether public schools have IMPROVED in the last 100 years is another question entirely. In my opinion, they have gotten much worse in the sciences and maths, and held ground in writing/reading comprehension. But at the same time, the quality has leveled out significantly and access to education has improved quite a bit. So probably on net, the total intelligence has gone up a decent amount.

    41. Re:Love the quotes by YouGotTobeKidding · · Score: 2

      Strange how I live in a country where private schools are all but unheard of, and quality of our public schools is far greater than that of private schools across the US.

      How soon should we expect them to become shit, existing only for the benefit of the government and teachers? They're only gone the way they are for about 40 years as far as I know, and they've been fairly steadily improving over at least thirty of those.

      Another generation. Two at the most. Basically as soon as your power elite figure out that a stupid, compliant and ignorant society is easier to 'handle'.

    42. Re: Love the quotes by rsmorgan · · Score: 1

      We're not into that. Children are considered 'property' and as such repeat the ills of the parents. Good to great teachers may dent that, but they'll lose to home schooling as it is not the real world where we all need to cooperate and get along. Parents have tons of prejudices and some desire to live again through the kids. In some respects the old fashioned schools where the older helped the younger and cooperation was king. Alas that's gone except for some sports, but even there, winning at any cost, prevails.

  2. She needs to be educated on DUI by Virtucon · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Due to a technicality Alice was let off of on a DUI charge just recently. Maybe she should spend some of her $27 Billion on Drug and Alcohol education in the schools instead?

    --
    Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
    1. Re:She needs to be educated on DUI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Not surprising. I went to a pretty excursive private school. (Not that may English reflects it.) We had one student pulled over for DUI. He got off because his parents hired a Private investigator to follow the arresting cop around. Turns out he liked to pick up prostitutes and take'em to an alley and return them.(I don't remember if he did this while on duty or not) He wasn't able to testify due to being on forced leave and since the high priced lawyer insisted on speedy trail the prosecution dropped the case.

    2. Re:She needs to be educated on DUI by Hognoxious · · Score: 0

      I went to a pretty excursive private school.

      That would explain why you drift off topic. Although if you're on beta, who knows what the topic is anyway?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    3. Re:She needs to be educated on DUI by theodp · · Score: 1

      If one wanted to be snarky, one could point out the disconnect between What is KIPP ("Thanks to the support of Doris & Don Fisher (co-founders of the GAP clothing stores), the Walton Family Foundation, the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, and other education reform advocates, KIPP now has a network of 99 schools...Five basic principles form the "pillars" that are responsible for the success of students at KIPP Schools....When it comes to effort and behavior, there are no excuses.") and Texas drops DUI charge against billionaire Wal-Mart heiress Alice Walton ("The DUI arrest was not Walton's first. According to information from the Springdale District Court in Arkansas, Walton was convicted of driving under the influence in a 1998 case.According to the UK's Independent, she hit a gas meter and told the responding police officer: 'I'm Alice Walton, bitch!'...Previous news accounts state Walton was also involved in a 1989 wreck in Arkansas that resulted in the death of a 50-year-old woman.")

    4. Re:She needs to be educated on DUI by arth1 · · Score: 1

      Although if you're on beta, who knows what the topic is anyway?

      If you force your DPI settings and resolution to the same odd combination as the web developers, you can see the topic. Or the parts that don't get cut off, that is.
      I'm surprised they haven't taken a cue from Visual Studio and capitalized subjects too.

    5. Re:She needs to be educated on DUI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, hopefully she'll careen off the road into a bridge abuttment the next time she gets behind the wheel drunk.

    6. Re:She needs to be educated on DUI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... liked to pick up prostitutes and take 'em to an alley ...

      Yes folks, it's 'tough on crime' in action, by ensuring that criminals get screwed again.

  3. Who gives a shit? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Does anybody know a decent "news for nerds" style discussion forum? Preferably one that bears as little resemblance to slashdot beta as possible?

    1. Re:Who gives a shit? by Luckyo · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yes. It's called slashdot. You're stinking it up with your "beta beta blah blah blah" bullshit. Take it to the farmers for composting or something.

    2. Re:Who gives a shit? by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1, Informative

      At least I know a place to discuss this question. And I guess a lot of activity in that specific discussion would be taken much more seriously by Dice than the Fuck Beta posts.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    3. Re:Who gives a shit? by unitron · · Score: 1

      Thanks for that link. Dice seems to have been able to keep it off my screen previously.

      If you're joining the Slashcott, allow me to direct you to The Individual Midnight Thread.

      http://slashdot.org/submission...

      --

      I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.

  4. Conmen and grifters by mbone · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I have come to the conclusion that the charter school movement was conceived in sin. born in corruption and is too full of conmen and grifters to give it any support.

    There may be some decent, honest people trying to make things better in the movement, but it is not the way to bet.

    1. Re:Conmen and grifters by fredprado · · Score: 0, Troll

      Do you mean exactly like the public school system and the teachers unions?

    2. Re:Conmen and grifters by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      Not at all, teacher's unions are quite direct in their interests being representation of teachers and not the students.

      This is why they are teacher's unions, not student unions. You want representation of student interests, try another group.

      Can't serve two masters.

    3. Re:Conmen and grifters by marcgvky · · Score: 1

      Spoken like a true leftie educator. I personally know a person who spearheaded a charter school in Kentucky (where education competition is badly needed) and this man was a great soul with a sense of purpose; focused on education and teaching children the skills of critical thinking and basic education. Get over yourselves.

    4. Re:Conmen and grifters by fredprado · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Teachers unions are all but direct in their interest being the representations of teachers. All their political arguments start and end with "for the students". Same thing about the public school system. The public servers that run it have exactly one interest, and that is keeping their jobs and their regulative power, but all their arguments also start and end with "for the students".

      You are right in one assumption though: "You can't serve two masters.". That is exactly why giving parents the power to choose their children schools is the best way to solve the problem, because the only people who serve the right masters, the students, are the parents.

    5. Re:Conmen and grifters by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Really? I've never heard the teacher's unions around here make that argument. I've even heard more complaints about them being directly and forthrightly adamant in their interests being their foremost concern.

      Good luck with your parent's selection idea, it only presumes that the parents are both interested in their children's best welfare and that they are informed enough to make the right choice. Oh wait, who have they been voting for to run the public system again? Hey wait, who is making the "for the children" argument here?

    6. Re:Conmen and grifters by fredprado · · Score: 1

      I've never heard the teacher's unions around here make that argument.

      Not my fault if you have been isolated in a cave for the last 50 years or so .

      The parents are both interested in their children's best welfare and that they are informed enough to make the right choice

      Between the parents and government bureaucrats I will bet in the parents every time. Parents are responsible for many other critical decisions regarding their children and considering the human race haven't been extinct yet I think they are doing a reasonably good job. Bureaucrats on the other hand have very little interest in creating a society that does not need their "guidance".

      Oh, and regarding your last silly remarks, many did not vote for the current government, and even those who did are not voting for people so these people can run their lives for them. They are voting for people to fill executive and legislative positions in the government. How much of their lives this government should be in charge is open to debate and certainly it is not a consensus between those who voted for it much less between those that did not.

    7. Re:Conmen and grifters by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not my fault if you have been isolated in a cave for the last 50 years or so .

      Really? Then you're not the person who caused the cave-in? Huh. I didn't know.

      But seriously, the teacher's unions around here do not make the arguments that you claim yours do, but if yours does, ok, however it seems you're also making that same argument. So if we can't trust them, how can we trust you when you're doing the same thing you say not to trust in others?

      Between the parents and government bureaucrats I will bet in the parents every time.

      Between parents and throwing darts at a decision-making board, I'll bet on the dartboard instead.

      Even if all the choices were wrong, at least I might miss it entirely.

      Parents are responsible for many other critical decisions regarding their children and considering the human race haven't been extinct yet I think they are doing a reasonably good job.

      Parents have been making a mess of raising their children for several millennium, while the survival of the human race has not been threatened by any such individual decision, many children have paid the price for their actions.

      Bureaucrats on the other hand have very little interest in creating a society that does not need their "guidance".

      Several parents have managed to make dependent children through the years. They had no interest in children that were resistant to them, and took steps to make sure they remained in charge.

      Hmm.

      Whatever can we do, apparently neither side can be trusted to do things right! Let's go for the nihilistic solution!

      Oh, and regarding your last silly remarks, many did not vote for the current government, and even those who did are not voting for people so these people can run their lives for them. They are voting for people to fill executive and legislative positions in the government. How much of their lives this government should be in charge is open to debate and certainly it is not a consensus between those who voted for it much less between those that did not.

      Yes, there is no absolute consensus in most human endeavors, but that would be ranging very far from the subject at hand, into the very meaning and substance of human existence. I didn't vote for the person who ostensibly represents me, at the local school boards, or further up in government. They are making decisions that impact me, and I don't agree with them, yet my ability to effect change is limited. You seem to be in the same situation. Whatever shall we do?

    8. Re:Conmen and grifters by fredprado · · Score: 1, Insightful

      But seriously, the teacher's unions around here do not make the arguments that you claim yours do, but if yours does, ok, however it seems you're also making that same argument. So if we can't trust them, how can we trust you when you're doing the same thing you say not to trust in others?

      Teacher's unions anywhere use this argument. It is the argument used against charter schools anywhere charter schools exist. They try to detract charter school quality anyway they can. They preach that privatization of all schools would make education worse because it would be a commercial and ruled by market laws, ignoring that private schools are better. They use the students supposed "well being" to leverage their position all the time, in US and everywhere else where there is threat to their jobs.

      And you don`t need to trust me. Trust is irrelevant. Arguments stand on their own regardless of who makes them. And in this case it is even more irrelevant if you trust me or not, because the ones you should decide to trust or not are the parents, and it is simply stupid not to trust them with this, as we already trust them with much more important things, like the lives and physical integrity of the children in question

      Parents have been making a mess of raising their children for several millennium, while the survival of the human race has not been threatened by any such individual decision, many children have paid the price for their actions.

      Only in your distorted view. Most parents do aquite a good job, and that is the only motive why we have a functional society. Governments on the other hand made huge messes and disrupted society with wars, genocides, massacres, mass surveillance,, indocrinnation, etc.

      Whatever can we do, apparently neither side can be trusted to do things right! Let's go for the nihilistic solution!

      Perfection does not exist in this world, but imperfections vary greatly. Nobody is talking about nihilistic solution, just about putting the decision in the hands of parents, because they are the least imperfect solution for this problem, being better than the government by far.

      They are making decisions that impact me, and I don't agree with them, yet my ability to effect change is limited. You seem to be in the same situation. Whatever shall we do?

      Easy, we should fight for our freedom to make our decisions and have control over any aspect of our lives that are not a government business to dictate, like the education of our children.

      Governments work by coercion through threat of violence. They are a necessary evil to keep society working, but they are an evil. Exactly because there is no consensus about most human endeavors we should keep coercion over people that disagree with most of us to the minimum necessary. that is the moral thing to do. Or do you think that if 70% of the people suddenly decide that we should exterminate the other 30% it would be ok to do so?

    9. Re:Conmen and grifters by cellocgw · · Score: 1

      But apparently you still failed to learn that "the plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data.'"

      Privately funded school systems will always be subject not only to the financial whims of the benefactor but to the political whims as well.

      --
      https://app.box.com/WitthoftResume Code: https://github.com/cellocgw
    10. Re:Conmen and grifters by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can't speak for private schools in the USA but here in Australia the only reason why private schools perform better then public schools is that they tend to only accept good students (or rich depending on the school) and they usually cover up any bad behaviors or kick the perpetrators.

      I also remember a few cases where the schools were actually giving students higher marks then they deserved in the in-school portions of the year 10 and year 12 certificates to boost their school's ratings. Fortunately there are exams for both year 10 and 12 that are administered and graded by the education department which helps to balance out the improper marking.

    11. Re:Conmen and grifters by marcgvky · · Score: 0

      Agreed. However, there is no money to be made in education, unless you are an elite post-secondary institution. As far as politics are concerned, that same assessment can be made of public schools. Competition in any ecosystems forces the competitors to enhance themselves and specialize. What's wrong with that?

    12. Re:Conmen and grifters by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can't speak for private schools in the USA but here in Australia the only reason why private schools perform better then public schools is that they tend to only accept good students (or rich depending on the school) and they usually cover up any bad behaviors or kick the perpetrators.

      I also remember a few cases where the schools were actually giving students higher marks then they deserved in the in-school portions of the year 10 and year 12 certificates to boost their school's ratings. Fortunately there are exams for both year 10 and 12 that are administered and graded by the education department which helps to balance out the improper marking.

      Same thing in the USA. See the movie "Heathers" from almost 25 years ago for a teeny bopper version. Private schools, and thus charter schools, are subject to selection bias. Weak or unruly students are filtered out. Of course the average gets higher when you drop the bottom out. Society still needs to keep those people int he educational average though so even if charter schools improve the subset's performance, the overall average is worse off.

      When you compound the issue by allowing charter schools to poach better* teachers from the public system, the double whammy is a considerable negative to the OVERALL education of the society, as any thought experiment taken to second order effects will show.

      * better and poach need to be defined more in depth, but a rigorous framework is no longer suitable for slashdot comments.

      Also. fuck the beta, see you in a week.

    13. Re:Conmen and grifters by fredprado · · Score: 1

      They accept anyone willing to pay, and enforce rules. Rich kids are not a guarantee of better grades, my friends. Intelligence distribution does not match money distribution. Your excuses are just that: excuses.

      Private schools are better because they are more efficient, like private companies, private health care, or anything at all that is not controlled by the government.

      I am not against universal education paid by the government, but I am certainly against of education controlled and managed by the government.

    14. Re:Conmen and grifters by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      Teachers unions are all but direct in their interest being the representations of teachers. All their political arguments start and end with "for the students". Same thing about the public school system. The public servers that run it have exactly one interest, and that is keeping their jobs and their regulative power, but all their arguments also start and end with "for the students".

      Except: what teachers want frequently, and neatly, overlaps with what's best for the students. Smaller class sizes. Insulation from political BS like teaching Intelligent Design. Ditching "standardized tests" that do a lot to enrich Kaplan but not much to education your kids. Due process for the teachers so they can't be fired because they gave a well-deserved F to the son of an Upstanding Member of the Community, or because that kid was bullying your kids.

      That is exactly why giving parents the power to choose their children schools is the best way to solve the problem, because the only people who serve the right masters, the students, are the parents.

      Annnnnnnd the elitism comes out. What you really want is for parents of means to send their kids - and funding - to the better schools, leaving the poor kids to suffer in poor schools with less funding. Is the establishment of a caste system a feature for you, or just a convenient bug?

  5. eprof.com by roman_mir · · Score: 0, Informative

    http://eprof.com - free market answer to the failures of government (redundancy detected) 'education' system.

    It is that school system that is about to bring you Beta.

  6. You know what I mean. by Sponge+Bath · · Score: 3, Interesting

    $60,920,186 to 'shape public policy'...

    AKA lobbying. What won't a politician do for money?

    1. Re:You know what I mean. by Luckyo · · Score: 5, Informative

      Aka corruption. Public corruption that is actually viewed as a positive thing.

      It shows how far people have fallen.

    2. Re:You know what I mean. by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      Wow, 0.04% of the money was spent for lobbying!

      Isn't it frightening to think about how much more money could have gone toward the charter schools if it wasn't for that 0.04% lobbying?

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    3. Re:You know what I mean. by NeverWorker1 · · Score: 2

      I think you got your math wrong there.

  7. Call me a cynic but... by bazmail · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'll bet they'll teach advanced shelf stacking techniques, door greeting, making do on low pay, turning your back on further education. etc. Walmart/Walton Foundation is NOT a charitable institution. Everything they do is profit through exploitation.

    1. Re:Call me a cynic but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      the U.S. Secretary of Education turns to corporate sponsors and auctions to fund his Mother's afterschool program

      I'm torn-- on one hand, what are you going to do, say "no, our education system won't take it"... on the other hand, what kind of strings are attached (or what kind of agenda comes along with the $)?

      I'm reminded of the Pete Seeger (RIP) song, "What Did You Learn In School Today?" As corporations take over the role of governments, I think this song could probably be slightly modified...

      What did you learn in school today, dear little boy of mine? What did you learn in school today, dear little boy of mine?
      I learned to stack, I learned to greet!
      I learned that minimum wage is neat!
      'Course it keeps me an endless debtor,
      But Wal-Mart Saves Money, so I Live Better(TM)!
      That's what I learned in school today, that's what I learned in school.

    2. Re:Call me a cynic but... by holly_ms · · Score: 2

      The Walton Family Foundation is a charitable institution, giving more than any other business. National Audubon Society, Harvard University, Georgetown University, Nature Conservancy, Inc., etc. What profit do they get for giving millions to these?

    3. Re:Call me a cynic but... by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1, Funny

      What profit do they get for giving millions to these?

      National Audubon Society - people appreciate birds more, so they'll buy birdseed at Walmart.

      Harvard University. Threefold: 1) Harvard alumni tend to be wealthy. They'll have more money to spend at Walmart and Sams Club. 2) They often start businesses. Businesses buy stuff at Walmart and supply stuff to Walmart. 3) They may employee some people. Those people may have kids who can stock shelves at Walmart.

      Georgetown University: They're trying to buy good will with future politicians early, so when they lobby for exploitative laws later, they'll be sure to get them. Plus what goes for Harvard.

      Nature Conservancy: purely to dupe people into thinking Walmart does good things, so they'll buy more stuff.

      Any more? I can play anti-capitalist conspiracy-whacko all day.

      Oh, for good measure: unskilled entry level jobs should pay what's needed to support a family so high school kids can't ever get a job!

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    4. Re:Call me a cynic but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Correction to my own post. Just wanted to note that the song is actually written by Tom Paxton, but made famous by Seeger.

      Speaking of music... the title of this post "25% of Charter Schools Owe Their Soul To the Walmart Store" is reminiscent of the line from 16 Tons, "I owe my soul to the company store"

    5. Re:Call me a cynic but... by nbauman · · Score: 1

      The Walton Family Foundation is a charitable institution, giving more than any other business. National Audubon Society, Harvard University, Georgetown University, Nature Conservancy, Inc., etc. What profit do they get for giving millions to these?

      Billionaires give money to Harvard University so that their kids can go to Harvard University.

      You don't think George W. Bush got into Harvard because of his SATs, do you?

    6. Re:Call me a cynic but... by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      The Walton Family Foundation is a charitable institution

      The Waltons, so generous they tell their employees how to apply for state and federal benefits. Because Wal-Mart pays them so little, they qualify for food stamps and Medicaid. So generous, for organizing food drives from Wal-Mart employees....to Wal-Mart employees so they can buy food.

  8. Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Where is the fucking government and its taxes. We shouldn't be reading stories about corporations doing government work.
    Because of various subsidies, loopholes, transfer of profits to offshore accounts we have U.S. of America in very heavy debt.

    Instead "dirty profits" are legalized by Washington lawyers and small chunks of it are thrown to the public to make us feel better.

    Screw you.

    1. Re:Why? by Luckyo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's quite simple really when you distance yourself from the whole thing, like those of us not in that country can do.

      Step one: buy out all mass media. Advertise that government is bad and capitalism is good.
      Step two: use aforementioned propaganda as a tool to get tax breaks.
      Step three: use part of the funds gathered through tax breaks to show the masses that are getting poorer how good corporations are, reinforcing point one.
      Step four: repeat step two.
      Step five: repeat step three.

      Every even step after one: profits increase.
      Every odd step after one: chance of revolt against corporate agenda decreases and push for step mentioned above increases from public direction towards the government.

      It's a brilliant construct, built to self-accelerate profit generation and increase fund transfer from public to private interests.

    2. Re:Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are just envious of the invisible hand in the marketplace. To make the nation even more prosperious, you should lower your pay and give higher tax breaks to multinational megacorporations.

      Captcha: coercing

    3. Re:Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The near-rich fled monarchy to establish democracy so that they could build their own monarchies.

    4. Re:Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It's quite simple really when you distance yourself from the whole thing, like those of us not in that country can do.

      Let's think about where we are starting from today

      Step one: buy out all mass media. Advertise that government is bad and capitalism is good.

      Can't buy out all mass media. The left already owns most of it and refuses to sell unless they're sure their message will continue to be pushed.

      Step two: use aforementioned propaganda as a tool to get tax breaks.

      Or support government initiatives like EPA regulations and healthcare, depending on who owns it (see #1)

      Step three: use part of the funds gathered through tax breaks to show the masses that are getting poorer how good corporations are, reinforcing point one.

      Not going to happen when most people get their news from places like CNN, USA Today, NPR, etc. and elect people like Obama, Reid, and Pelosi

      etc...

    5. Re:Why? by greg1104 · · Score: 1

      There's a similar loop around government regulation, what's called the "revolving door". Hire people who used to be government regulators with a fat paycheck; tell existing regulators they'll earn more that way than their government job pays; use profits from unregulated activities to hire more regulators. This is how financial companies in the US cracked regulation by the SEC, food manufacturers avoid the FDA, etc.

      It's hilarious how an AC thought your history lesson here was a plan for the future.

    6. Re:Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Works great except for the poor people vote democrat thing. Fortunately, in the deep south, the poor have figured out the Democrats are just as bought

    7. Re:Why? by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      And those outside your country, including chinese, figured out that you're a single party oligarchy. Chinese even copied it, minus they knew their people aren't gullible enough to swallow the bullshit, but pliable enough not to have to feed them the bullshit in the first place.

  9. Wow by sunking2 · · Score: 1, Offtopic

    This site has really gone down the crapper.

    1. Re:Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It should be called SlashWhiners.

      Incessant whining about everything. It's like all the adults have been banished on only 5th graders are posting.

  10. The possibilities are endless by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 5, Funny

    Maybe schools should raise some more corporate-sponsored cash by doing product placements. For example, it would be easy to monetize homework assignments:

    1a. Juan is planning a picnic. He buys packages of Sara Lee® brand 100% Wheat Home Style® Hot Dog Buns which each contain eight buns. He also buys packages of Osar Mayer® Jumbo Deluxe All-Beef Franks®, which each contain 10 wieners. What is the minimum number of Hot Dogs Juan needs to buy so that there are no unmatched buns or wieners?

    1b. Juan plans to put 1/2 ounce of Heinz® Sweet Dill® Relish on each hot dog. How many 12-oz jars of relish does he need to buy? What brand of mustard would best complement the relish: (a) Heinz® Classic Yellow Hot Dog® Mustard (b) some other non-specific mustard?

    1c. Extra credit: Juan asks his friend Latoya to buy ketchup for his picnic. List three benefits Latoya would receive if she bought genuine Heinz® Classic® Ketchup instead of the discount store brand. Explain how sometimes what appears to be the least expensive choice isn't the greatest value overall.

    1. Re:The possibilities are endless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Maybe schools should raise some more corporate-sponsored cash by doing product placements. For example, it would be easy to monetize homework assignments:

      As opposed to endlessly raping the taxpayer for more money (for "education") which invariably ends up in the pockets of tenured sub-par teachers and administrators and does very little to improve the actual quaility of education. I think Alice Walton and Bill Gates could hardly do worse than our current system.

      Fuck Beta and fuck Timothy.

    2. Re:The possibilities are endless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      no unmatched buns or wieners

      Sounds like a gay paradise.

    3. Re:The possibilities are endless by fredprado · · Score: 1

      Between feeding the students corporate propaganda and government propaganda I certainly prefer the former. At least there will be many corporations fighting for what to feed them and not a single one.

    4. Re:The possibilities are endless by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Between feeding the students corporate propaganda and government propaganda I certainly prefer the former. At least there will be many corporations fighting for what to feed them and not a single one.

      No. There will be many corporations bidding. Only one will get to feed them. This is how it works already, with soda companies holding exclusive contracts to provide fountain drinks and sometimes even the vending machines on a campus.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    5. Re:The possibilities are endless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You laugh, but the last two universities I have taught at have been paid by Pepsi for exclusive rights on campus (i.e. all vending/dining hall drinks are Pepsi and you can only be reimbursed for Pepsi soft drinks for events).

    6. Re:The possibilities are endless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's only because the government monopoly holder that is leasing the contract is too lazy to make a good decision in terms of how to grant the contract. E.g., Chicago's parking system (massive $$$ failure), or New Orleans levees (massive failure due to gov graft and corruption), etc, etc

    7. Re:The possibilities are endless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Translation: I would prefer the students be indoctrinated into violent slavery, rather than have even a tiny chance of having control over their government.

      You, sir, are a perfect enemy to freedom. Let's just go ahead and bring back company towns as well, with armed guards ensuring the "employees" can't ever take their shackl-- err.. leg weights.. off.

  11. Please read before modding down. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Interesting

    I am posting this anonymously because many of my previously upmodded posts have suddenly been downmodded offtopic, troll, etc. Karma be damned, I am fighting for a website I have been reading almost every day for more than a decade. If you care about Slashdot, please do not sit idly by and wait for Dice to add to Beta the features that we care about. Slashdot has, hands down, the best moderation system online. It is no coincidence that it has been ruined in Beta.

    There is a reason why "News for Nerds, stuff that matters" no longer appears in the header:

    Slashdot Media’s brands include Slashdot and SourceForge. These technology sites provide access to tools, software and forums for enterprise IT professionals working in all industries and companies from the world’s largest to small and medium-sized firms. Slashdot and SourceForge harness the power of social that no other tech site can compete with.

    Slashdot Media provides its partners with proven integrated media strategies to effectively influence technology buyers. With over 15 years experience working with the largest and most engaged professional technology communities, Slashdot Media’s expert staff continues to contribute to the success of its partners branding, demand generation, and social media marketing programs.

    I, for one, abhor our new corporate overlords.

    1. Re:Please read before modding down. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fuck DICE............. :-(

      This BETA shit is driving me crazy.

      FUCK BETA

  12. An Andrew Carnegie was a philanthropist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Andrew Carnegie has his name on more museums libraries and schools than anyone else in the northeast US. He also hired thugs to murder striking workers. Giving your money way rather than trying to take it with you may be noble, but it does not erase the sins of people that have built their fortunes on abusing workers like the Waltons and Carnegie.

  13. Re:What is going on? by jones_supa · · Score: 1

    The new comment system seems to be designed to be used at full HD resolution with a maximized window. Apparently they didn't consider that with anything smaller than that, the comment are becomes a painfully narrow corridor.

  14. The Truth (if you can handle it) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    My children go to a charter school and they are getting a far better education than they would at the failing local schools. My wife and I are both involved in the school and we both have a teaching background (I taught engineering at the college level for 4 years and my wife was a preschool teacher for 11 years, both sets of grandparents also taught public school for 20+ years). The teachers and organization of the charter school is light years beyond the local public school in delivering an effective learning experience for the kids. There are always a few bad apples, but anyone who tells you that charter schools as a whole are not far better than public schools is a liar in the tank for the teachers union or someone who has been brainwashed by their propaganda.

    The money that charter schools get from the taxes that we pay is a pittance compared to what the pathetic, failing state run public schools get. If we don't want charities funding charter schools maybe we should ban teachers unions and give parents vouchers that they can take to any school that is accredited. Let's also institute a ranking system based on the learning the students actually do so even the laziest parents can pick winner schools. That way charter schools won't have to beg for funding and will be on an even footing with public schools; the problem is the teachers unions don't want that because they know that inside of 10 years all of the public schools would be gone along with their power, massive union dues and a huge fundraising/advertising arm of the Democrat party. The bottom line is the teachers unions exist only to further their own power and enrich the teachers, regardless of how well they teach. Until we break those unions, our children's education will always be second place on the political landscape.

    They tried vouchers in DC and it has been an unmitigated success which is now trying to be shut down because the unions are scared spit-less that it will spread to other states.

    1. Re:The Truth (if you can handle it) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      " The bottom line is the teachers unions exist only to further their own power and enrich the teachers, regardless of how well they teach."

      Because we all know that public school teachers went into it for the easy money...

      If you want to abandon the very idea of public schooling, use your own money to do it. Despite the obvious problems with our political system currently, anyone with a clue knows that public schools need to be improved rather than phased out Some services are too important to be privatized.

    2. Re:The Truth (if you can handle it) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually, in this day and age, if you add in all of the benefits teachers get (remember I was a teacher, my wife was a teacher, my mom is a teacher and my father in law and his father were teachers, so I know WTF I am talking about) teachers are making bank. In southern California they are making $56k/year, median US income $51k according to Salary.com. This doesn't take into account the top of the line medical benefits, housing benefits and many other benefits that they get which are far better than a much more qualified professional gets in the private sector (I have heard estimates of $20k/year or more above private sector equivalents).

      Also factor in that they only work 8 months a year and get 12 months of benefits. They are making $7,000 a month and have 16 weeks of vacation a year. If they worked like the rest of us for 12 months a year (nothing is stopping them from working the other 4 months, BTW), they would make $84k a year. Also realize that they are doing a job that any high school graduate could technically do (and up until the advent of state run schools and unnecessary regulation, people did). The teachers unions have consistently increased the regulation on who can teach by legislation to the point where I can teach at the college level but can't teach in the public grade school or high school. All to justify jacking up the salaries of teachers and increasing the power of the unions.

    3. Re:The Truth (if you can handle it) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have to agree with you. Sorry to the thin-skinned folks who can't stand to see teachers criticized, but while some of them are incredible, some of them are complete shit. The difference is that at Google or whatever, you'd be out on your ass if you sucked, but most public school teachers have security that the majority of us can't comprehend.

      My kids' charter school in southern California ranks at the very top of the state's rankings (API score), and it's largely because the parents are so damn involved. The school gets something like 70% of the money that a public school does, but it destroys them in performance. And yes, the school did get something like $250K from the Walton Foundation, without the money, I'm not sure the school would have been viable.

      Where I grew up, quite a while ago, in a nice, comfortable suburb, the public schools were awesome, we all got great educations, and the high fliers went to whatever school they wanted (or could afford, blah blah blah..) I went back to my old high school a couple years ago and dropped into a few of the classes. I was appalled at the quality of teaching. Disconnected, disinterested, dismissive, unprepared... I sat in 6 classes over about 3 hours, and it broke my heart. Fucking garbage.

      My deal with my own kids (they don't know it yet) is this: I'll do everything I can between now and age 18 to help them be successful: after that, the baby bird is getting kicked out of the nest, just like I was, and it has to flap its wings and fly. Sure, I could drink beer and watch football, or go work out and get back down to the 3% body fat I used to have, or play Xbox, or sit in Starbucks and watch keyboard cat, or whatever, but I have kids, and I've chosen to feed my family, not my ego. Where I live, where self-indulgence is pretty common, that makes me a pariah. Who cares.

    4. Re:The Truth (if you can handle it) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      $56k/yr in SoCal vs. $51k median US income? Wow, kudos on pulling out an apple to compare to an orange. How about the median SoCal income? Was this a gag to see if people are paying attention?

    5. Re:The Truth (if you can handle it) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You obviously don't get it, or are a paid shrill for Walmart. You see, Warmart is an icon for all that is bad in corporate America, and neither Walmart nor anyone associated with Walmart can do good. No donation to charity, no money spent on education, no jobs created, no low cost goods efficiently distributed to customers. It's all evil by definition.

    6. Re:The Truth (if you can handle it) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Median income in CA is 61K, or $5k/month, which pales in comparison to median teachers at $7k/month. Don't bitch at me about taking 16 weeks of vacation a year and not making as much as people who actually work 12 months out of the year! Oh, and I didn't even bring up the fact that teachers only work about 7h a day if they know what they are doing and have their lesson plans nailed down, while most professionals do between 9 and 10h a day.

      I have nothing but contempt for teachers who complain about their wages. Let them switch jobs with a real professional for a year and they will never complain a word for the rest of their careers. I say this with the authority of working in both the professional and educational fields, so unlike all the whiners out there I actually have a baseline to make the comparison. Teachers should shut up and actually do a solid job of teaching, which many suck at, or they should leave the field and see how much their degree in teaching basic reading, writing and basic math is actually worth in the real world. I would bet money that most college graduates who have worked in a profession for a few years would be better at teaching than the 50% of teachers who are whiny, burnout liberal lobotomies we have teaching right now.

    7. Re:The Truth (if you can handle it) by Jason+Levine · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Maybe the charter schools by you are good. The ones by me? Not so much. First of all, they get to pick and choose what students they accept. Inevitably, any student with special needs isn't accepted. (We had our son in a Montessori school for a bit years ago and we were pushed out. We suspected this was because our son required PT and OT services. Later we found out that all students with PT or OT were being pushed out but we felt pressure not to talk since the principal was friends with some people high up in the district.) This selective enrollment means that the public schools get a bigger percentage of students who need services. This costs more money, of course, but the charter schools don't need to pay for that.

      Next, there are the high stakes tests that New York has implemented. I'm opposed to those tests in general. They are administered by Pearson, not reviewed by ANYONE to see if they are appropriate, and don't show what students have learned. They only are used as a threat against teachers - if your kids do poorly, you might be out of a job. This means that the teachers teach to the test and toss aside anything that won't be on the test. However, the charter schools are exempt from this. They don't need to take these tests and so they can do what they want.

      Third is the fact that they pull money from public schools. Those same public schools that now need to spend more money on the higher percentage of student with special needs and who feel pressured to teach to the test are finding themselves with less and less money and more money flows to the charter schools instead.

      Finally, what tests the charter schools DO administer, they get to decide which results to publish. So if a few kids don't do well on the tests, those scores get tossed aside while the successful kids have their scores touted as the norm.

      This all combines to lead public schools to ruin while diverting more money to charter schools. It becomes a vicious cycle too. Charter schools look stellar with selective test reporting while the struggling public schools look bad. So more charter schools are opened and the public schools get less and less money. Rinse and repeat. Meanwhile, the kids who need special services get a second class education because the charter schools don't want to touch them. (Not that I'd want my sons in one of those.)

      Like I said, this might not be the case for the Charter schools by you, but by me this has been my experience. They are run by greedy corporations who see the public school system as a big piggy bank that they can suck dry and they will manipulate test results and lobby politicians as much as they need to to get those dollars.

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    8. Re:The Truth (if you can handle it) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My neighbors in norcal had a 3500 sq ft house and his and her Escalades. Both high school teachers. I'm pretty sure they're underpaid, I'm a pilot with the same size house next door, but only have a minivan and a civic.

    9. Re:The Truth (if you can handle it) by khallow · · Score: 1

      Despite the obvious problems with our political system currently, anyone with a clue knows that public schools need to be improved rather than phased ou

      Looks like charter schools are the way to do it in the US.

    10. Re:The Truth (if you can handle it) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also, don't forget that teachers don't typically need to contribute to either medicare/medicaid or social security. The unions have a nice exemption for them from those taxes. Yes, they have their own programs they contribute to, but the amount is usually less. (hence why so many teachere pension plans are steadily bankrupting) So that 56k has a lot less (~16%) taken from it than they were plumbing or coding.

    11. Re:The Truth (if you can handle it) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... greedy corporations who see the public school system as a big piggy bank ...

      The problem with businesses being they need to sell more product: This isn't beneficial when the government is buying more prison cells or smart bombs. Obviously those goods must be consumed to get value-for-money. Yet the government always finds the money to fund these resource sinks. I would much prefer the government buy more education. I am hoping of course, that the government will increase the education budget, which is the power of government. Individual consumers spend much less on a lifestyle good, such as health care. Here, a business receives a fixed revenue so it must increase the price of goods each year to inflate profit.

    12. Re:The Truth (if you can handle it) by nbauman · · Score: 1

      they are doing a job that any high school graduate could technically do (and up until the advent of state run schools and unnecessary regulation, people did).

      You think any high school graduate could teach K-12 science? You don't know much about science. You especially don't know much about teaching science. Take a look at some of the articles on science teaching in Science magazine sometimes.

      The teachers unions have consistently increased the regulation on who can teach by legislation to the point where I can teach at the college level but can't teach in the public grade school or high school. All to justify jacking up the salaries of teachers and increasing the power of the unions.

      It's actually easier to teach science at the college level than at the K-12 level. They're only able to understand certain things at certain ages, and teachers have to know what that is. For example, according to the research, most junior high school kids aren't able to understand the concept of molecules. Don't believe it? Look at the research. Why should they? Most of the world's smartest adults had a hard time understanding molecules until the 18th century. I've seen museum exhibits that supposedly teach 10-year-olds about DNA. If you ask some of those kids to explain DNA, you'll realize that they were at best memorizing concepts they didn't understand.

    13. Re:The Truth (if you can handle it) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe the charter schools by you are good. The ones by me? Not so much.

      And then you go on to disprove it.

      First of all, they get to pick and choose what students they accept. Inevitably, any student with special needs isn't accepted.

      This is how it should be. You don't throw golf carts in with normal traffic, nor should you throw in special needs students with normal kids. It's not good for either one.

      Charter schools look stellar with selective test reporting while the struggling public schools look bad.

      This is bullshit, the simple truth is that public schools would look bad using ANY measure, and if you don't think public schools are kings of selective test reporting you are insane. They have been gaming the system for decades. The actual results from public schools are even more abysmal than you have been led to believe.

      They are run by greedy corporations who see the public school system as a big piggy bank that they can suck dry and they will manipulate test results and lobby politicians as much as they need to to get those dollars.

      Replace "corporations" with "teachers unions" and you have described the entire public school system - only it's a 1000x worse actor, especially in regard to corrupting politicians.

    14. Re:The Truth (if you can handle it) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I gave a large sum of (my hard earned) money to the now-governor of Michigan with the idea that he would further vouchers. However, he was afraid to take on the Teachers Unions (unions are very strong there) in the elections - only a few governors have had the cojones to actually push vouchers - Wisconsin (Scott Walker) and Louisiana (Bobby Jindal).

    15. Re:The Truth (if you can handle it) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, vouchers are the way to do it in the US - Charter Schools are still controlled by the (typically corrupt and uncaring) local school boards.

    16. Re:The Truth (if you can handle it) by Bookworm09 · · Score: 1

      They tried vouchers in DC and it has been an unmitigated success which is now trying to be shut down because the unions are scared spit-less that it will spread to other states.

      Really? You don't think it might have something to do with the massive cheating scandal? I don't think "unmitigated" means what you think it means.

    17. Re:The Truth (if you can handle it) by cavebison · · Score: 1

      My wife and I are both involved in the school and we both have a teaching background

      You had my interest there.

      The money that charter schools get from [taxes] is a pittance compared to what the pathetic, failing state run public schools get.

      Made me wonder how your mind works.

      maybe we should ban teachers unions

      Turned me off completely. Any teacher speaking casually about banning things is not one I want teaching MY kids.

      The bottom line is the teachers unions exist only to further their own power and enrich the teachers, regardless of how well they teach.

      If you're a Republican voter (no prizes there), at least show some balance by also suggesting banning corporate influences on politics, which they do ONLY for their own power and enrichment. If you think corporate lobbies and super PACs are the only allowable influence on policy, again you are no worthy teacher for my kids.

      Until we break those unions, our children's education will always be second place on the political landscape.

      Outside of teachers & academics, who do you think really cares about quality of education? Politicians? Corporations? Religions? And in what way exactly are those institutions different from unions? They all battle each other for influence, but I'd rather put my hat in with a group of teachers than groups ONLY interested in power and money.

  15. Re:At least that's a winner for the new motto by Luckyo · · Score: 3, Insightful

    That was indeed the double meaning. Thank you for spelling it out for everyone.

    Fact is though, the beta protest movement has its place. And its not in the other discussions. Even a good cause can lose a lot of support if most ardent supporters start to trash everything, rather than focusing their protests on the issue.

  16. Re:At least that's a winner for the new motto by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I've read slashdot from the start - posting from time to time as anonymous (I never saw the need to register for forums that offer an anon capability) - and I agree that it's dying and that's actually a real shame. There are so few actual stories worth reading, and when there are, the posts are mostly people not contributing - just trying to be funny. It didn't used to be that way (there were always jokers and trolls, but not like this)

    I guess I'll keep reading for now... but what a turn this site has taken...

  17. Does this have anything to do with Wal-Mart? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Does this link blizzard have anything to do with charter schools being in debt or obligated to Wal-Mart, the retail store? Or is it just a Walton heir getting mixed up with charter schools? Not clear at all.

  18. Hah! by bloggerhater · · Score: 0

    Fantastic how mixing up articles on both public and charter schools can shade people's opinions.

    Also, let's take the bitching about slashdot beta elsewhere?

    On both counts, you "me too" people disgust me.

  19. Yeah by Spiked_Three · · Score: 1

    Me too.

    I specifically notice the change from MS bashing articles to stuff actually interesting. Maybe slashdot has finally grown into something useful.

    --
    slashdot troll = you make a compelling argument I do not like the implications of.
    1. Re:Yeah by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      When you think about it, they're really the same. Windows 8 == slashdot beta. The ugly duckling == Lion King (or Macbeth; I get confused sometimes) == Pirates Of Penzance. Ayn Rand == Bennet Haselton.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    2. Re:Yeah by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      The Lion King was actually based on a documentary about Lion behaviour which bears some resemblance to the political behaviour of medieval nobility. A lion cub's uncle will most definitely try and kill it. It has nothing to do with the cub being an "ugly duckling", the uncle wants to kill them so that he has a better chance to impregnate the lioness and have her rear his own cubs. Of course if his brother finds him lurking around one of his girlfriends then he will be mightily pissed off. Hyenas are direct competition, most predators will attempt to drive weaker competitors out of their territory, Hyenas are no exception and will kill a lion cub or an isolated adult.

      OTOH: The ugly duckling is about a bird that is ridiculed and bullied for it's strange appearance as a child but grows up to be a beautiful adult. Birds do not behave like that, humans do. A bird will happily raise a cuckoo chick, even though the chick looks nothing like it's own offspring.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    3. Re:Yeah by l0n3s0m3phr34k · · Score: 1

      I just saw a documentary with a cat raising ducklings...the cat found them RIGHT after she gave birth, still pumping oxytocin. The funniest part was watching the momma cat trying to drag the ducklings back to her when they kept trying to climb into the cat's water bowl...

    4. Re:Yeah by Richy_T · · Score: 1

      Nah, it's based on "Kimba, the White Lion". I thought everybody knew that by now.

  20. Re:At least that's a winner for the new motto by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There are a few options. We should pick one before Monday; everyone who participates in the week-long slashcott will need a place to go.

    altslashdot.org is what it sounds like. It's being setup in response to the Beta fiasco. It's a work in progress and needs volunteers.

    kuo5hin.org is an old slashdot spinoff. It's more or less dead now, but the site still exists. Stories are submitted and voted on by readers. At the moment it's giving me a key-expired error.

    technocract.net is a site that was run a few times by Bruce Perens. He's been asked to set it up again. The goal was to have a slashdot-like site, but the problem was always getting enough people. At the time of writing, it's not up.

  21. Shop class by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Do you think the Gates, Walton, or Obama kids will be taking shop class, other than as a hobby? It's the wealthy's condescending solution for the less privileged. Their kids will be knowledge workers; the poor aren't good enough for it.

    Similar is the backlash against college education (and liberal arts). Most of the people saying college isn't necessary will be sending their kids; it's the less wealthy who they think shouldn't go.

    "College isn't for everyone" they say, but there is a strong relationship between income and academic performance. Perhaps the solution is to give the poorer kids an opportunity, instead of writing them off.

  22. Charter Schools = Republican control & profit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Today, the main purpose of charter schools is to tap the huge pie of education spending, wrest it away from the commie democrats and unions that control it, and siphon it into Republican pockets.

  23. Crystal Bridges by Hugh+Pickens+DOT+Com · · Score: 3, Interesting

    That's not all Alice has done. My wife and I recently spent a few days at the Crystal Bridges Museum of American Art, a world class museum in Bentonville, Arkansas created by Alice Walton, and had an incredible experience. "Located on 120 acres of native Ozark forest, Crystal Bridges' grounds invite visitors to enjoy the natural environment as a continuation of their museum experience. The Museum's distinctive architecture immerses visitors in the landscape, while three miles of nature trails encourage exploration and reflection." And admission is free.

    1. Re:Crystal Bridges by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's not all Alice has done. My wife and I recently spent a few days at the Crystal Bridges Museum of American Art, a world class museum in Bentonville, Arkansas created by Alice Walton, and had an incredible experience. "Located on 120 acres of native Ozark forest, Crystal Bridges' grounds invite visitors to enjoy the natural environment as a continuation of their museum experience. The Museum's distinctive architecture immerses visitors in the landscape, while three miles of nature trails encourage exploration and reflection." And admission is free.

      Alice Walton's taste in art is shit. Western Art? Give me a fuckin break. She is subsidized by taxpayers that foot the bill for foodstamps and healthcare for her under payed and under educated workers. Fuck her and all the Walton spawn.

  24. Here's some quotes by bondsbw · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "tax-free kindness of wealthy strangers"

    Why do some feel that charitable contributions should be taxed? Say someone makes a billion dollars this year and gives away that billion dollars to feed the hungry or buy clothes for the poor... that should be it. If the government takes half a billion off the top, that is half a billion less for those hungry and poor.

    It's the same as giving someone a welfare check and then taxing half of it. Suggesting that would be considered preposterous by the same people who want to tax the hell out of the charitable contributions.

    --
    All my liberal friends think I'm a conservative, all my conservative friends think I'm a liberal.
    1. Re:Here's some quotes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the government takes half a billion off the top, that is half a billion less for those hungry and poor.

      Unless, of course, that's what the government was going to use it for.

    2. Re:Here's some quotes by nbauman · · Score: 0

      "tax-free kindness of wealthy strangers"

      Why do some feel that charitable contributions should be taxed? Say someone makes a billion dollars this year and gives away that billion dollars to feed the hungry or buy clothes for the poor... that should be it. If the government takes half a billion off the top, that is half a billion less for those hungry and poor.

      It's the same as giving someone a welfare check and then taxing half of it. Suggesting that would be considered preposterous by the same people who want to tax the hell out of the charitable contributions.

      I'd like to know the name of that someone who gave away a billion dollars to feed the hungry or buy clothes for the poor. I haven't heard of any in New York City. After Giuliani and Bloomberg made it tougher to get food stamps, I know a lot of hungry people who could use some extra food.

      Most of the billionaires in New York City are like David Koch, who gave his millions to marble edifices like Lincoln Center, which is one of the playgrounds of the rich, where he can throw parties for his rich friends. Everybody else pays taxes. Why shouldn't he? Why should he get tax breaks for building his party venue in Lincoln Center?

      On the contrary, Koch contributes to Republicans who take food stamps and unemployment benefits away from the poor.

      Another stunt is park "conservatories." Giuliani and Bloomberg handed NYC's best parks, like Central Park, Washington Square Park, and Bryant Park, to private "conservatories" that raise millions of tax-exempt dollars from billionaires who then run the parks as their private back yards. People are complaining that we want to use the parks as living spaces, but they're turning them into their private flower gardens. They blocked off access to the Central Park lake, put up fences, and planted flowers, so you can't sit by the lake any more. They kicked the hot dog vendors out of Washington Square Park, and turned it into a flower garden, with cops to patrol it. That used to be everybody's back yard. Now it belongs to a few.

      I've got a better suggestion for these billionaires. If they have so much money, they can afford to pay taxes. Let's just take the money from them -- it's called taxes -- and use it to maintain our parks the way we want to, with access for all the people. David Koch doesn't like it? He threatens to leave New York City? Get the fuck out, if you don't want to pay your share. We've got enough billionaires on Park Avenue already.

    3. Re:Here's some quotes by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      If someone makes a billion dollars this year, they pay $0 or less in taxes. Their "company" made it, and they exercise the power and lifestyle from it, without having to pay taxes for it. When they do pay taxes on something, it's at a 15% rate for billionaires. As income will always be maneuvered to be a capital gain.

      That and you presume that income or wealth correlates with charitable giving. If they had an extra half a billion dollars, what if they'd spend it all on cocaine and hookers?

    4. Re:Here's some quotes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't normally flame people but some comments are so stupid they deserve a response. In this ridiculous example perhaps the money spent on the homeless however worthwhile in the abstract might better be used to cure cancer, put men on mars, protect us all from enemies both domestic and foreign or simple provide college educations for some.. At least the government has a mechanism however flawed to determine priorities that somehow seems more robust than relying on the whims of the rich.

    5. Re:Here's some quotes by davester666 · · Score: 1

      no, it's not.

      Microsoft handed out millions of dollars worth of windows and office licenses to schools. millions of dollars worth only if counted at FULL RETAIL VALUE.

      it was like a trifecta
      1) it cost microsoft nothing
      2) they got a HUGE tax break
      3) as a bonus, kids got trained in those valuable "microsoft office" skills

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    6. Re:Here's some quotes by davester666 · · Score: 1

      I forgot

      4) kept schools away from Linux

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    7. Re: Here's some quotes by gordo3000 · · Score: 1

      First they can be taxes if you are giving more than 25% of your income away (there are nice loopholes with cost basing stock at purchase price rather than current price).

      Second charity is not only money to the poor. Charity is money to your favorite lobbying group, money to your favorite theater an average person couldn't afford a seat in for his family, and money to erect statues of your family members as well.

      Why should you get a tax break to build a statue to yourself in some private building run by a private corporation that sets itself up as charitable for donation purposes?

    8. Re:Here's some quotes by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      What State or Country allows a company to make a $1+ billion profit and pay zero taxes?

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    9. Re:Here's some quotes by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      Why do some feel that charitable contributions should be taxed?

      Well, there's charity and then there's charity.

      If you know your neighbor has been unemployed and anonymously drop off $1000 at his house, that's charity.

      If you contribute to a university and have a building named after you, it is still called "charity" but in fact, you have just purchased a monument to yourself.

      If you're a sponsor of the Lyric Opera, you get a box seat and a nice bronze plaque so all your rich friends can see that you are a noble and sophisticated aesthete.

      My father taught me that if you seek any benefit for your charity, then it ain't charity. And that means when you give your old clothes to the Salvation Army, don't try to write that off your taxes, you schnorrer.

      It ain't about government and what it takes and what it doesn't take. It's about the kind of person you are.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    10. Re:Here's some quotes by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      Every single one. In fact, the newest dodge is that when a state is trying to lure a company to come there (or to keep a company there, as in Boeing), they will allow to company to collect state income tax from their employees and then just keep it themselves. Got that? The company still deducts the money from your paycheck and your W-2 says "State Income Taxes Withheld" but every penny of that money is kept by your employer, just because.

      I believe for the period 2008 to 2012, there were 26 companies with profits of $1billion or more that paid zero taxes on that income.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    11. Re:Here's some quotes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The lake access is more likely due to a "THINK OF THE CHILDREN" fear mentality worried about "SAFETY" around open bodies of water.

    12. Re:Here's some quotes by bondsbw · · Score: 1

      You described two separate issues:

      1) the definition of "charity" is much too loose and includes things of personal benefit
      2) things that should not be considered charity allow for tax breaks

      I understand and agree that issue #1 is wrong. It needs to be fixed. And if it is fixed, issue #2 also gets solved.

      But if I make $50K/year and use $20K of that for my own food, clothing, and shelter, and give the remaining $30K to selflessly help others be fed, clothed, and sheltered.... no, the government should not take any of that money. For me, I might as well have never seen a dime of it, and it is counterproductive to tax what is directly helping those in need.

      --
      All my liberal friends think I'm a conservative, all my conservative friends think I'm a liberal.
    13. Re:Here's some quotes by _Sharp'r_ · · Score: 1

      Unless, of course, that's what the government was going to use it for.

      Then, what, 20% of it ends up going for that same purpose, after the politicians, lobbyists, bureaucracies and waste take their cuts?

      Of course, that's only when they don't manage to create a worse problem altogether with their "program" by subsidizing the problem they were supposedly attempting to cure.

      --
      The party of stupid and the party of evil get together and do something both stupid and evil, then call it bipartisan.
    14. Re:Here's some quotes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Look at it from the perspective of the poor. Do you want to live of the charity of some rich bastard or the anonymous government social worker? We the people created the government for a reason, so that we don't have to kowtow to the rich when we are down on our luck.

    15. Re:Here's some quotes by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      But if I make $50K/year and use $20K of that for my own food, clothing, and shelter, and give the remaining $30K to selflessly help others be fed, clothed, and sheltered

      Well, let's unpack that. The taxes we pay are to fund the "commons". The things that we as a society need.

      If you give 60% of your income to charity, does that mean that you use less of the commons or that your share no longer needs to be funded? Do you use the roads less? Do your children use the schools less? Do you eat less food that is inspected by food inspectors? And if your tax bill is reduced due to your charity, is it fair that the rest of us have to pick up the slack caused by your charity?

      It's a complicated question. And the discussion always, inevitably, leads to the debate over whether a person should be forced to pay taxes to fund something the government does with which he disagrees, such as the War in Iraq. The progressive income tax is one of the more fair ways to apportion the cost of our shared society. I believe that it's certainly appropriate to make a portion of the amount you give to charity, but as you say, and we agree, there needs to be strict controls over what qualifies as a "charity". Remember, every tax write-off you get means the rest of society has to pick up your share instead.

      There are certainly conundrums inherent in representational governments such as democracies and representational republics. We're never going to devise a perfect formula, so there's this constant give-and-take over who does what and what it's worth.

      For example, I think there is a reasonable debate to be had over whether or not the $14million that Mitt Romney gave to the Mormon Church is really charity. What about money given to the Church of Scientology or the PopeRatzo Church of the Groovy Messiah where the main sacrament is weed and cheap wine served by naked nuns? Or political contributions? If I want to launder $5million of my income through a 501c3 so it can go to my favorite candidate, should I be able to reduce my income tax bill by claiming that it's charity? How comfortable are you with our definition of charity? If I give my money to my alma mater, which has a $1.5billion endowment, is that really charity? Well, the government thinks so.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    16. Re:Here's some quotes by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Now, are you talking the "person" paying the tax, or the "company" paying it? And what rebates/exemptions are in place? Many of the Irish companies make billions in one country, but transfer that profit to Irelant for lower taxes, so they won't pay a penny in Italy or wherever they made the profit. In other cases, the "taxes" paid are not taxes. Companies can deduct taxes paid twice (at different rates, but as it decreases profit as an expense, it's deductible there, plus taxes paid can be claimed back in many cases).

      Do you know how much BP pays for the oil they pump out of the ground in Alaska? I'll give you a hint, according to the BP financial records, it's a zero-value "gift" from the state (and people) of Alaska.

      But if Paris Hilton makes a billion dollars in a year, it's not Paris that makes it, but her company. And every party is deductible, as her party image is a PR expense. And private jets to jet around are a deductable expense, as business travel is an expense. The amount of personal income tax paid by someone like Paris Hilton to live one of the most extravagent lives on the planet is something people guess to be near (or not exactly) zero. And there are constant discussions on permanently and completely removing the estate tax, so she can get an infinite inheritance for "free" as well.

      Are you sure you know how taxes work?

    17. Re:Here's some quotes by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      Please list one. Because as far as I know, every State or Country charges tax for profit. Now, there may be deductions that allow that profit to go away, and thus the tax is zero - but there is still a non-zero tax rate on actual profit.

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    18. Re:Here's some quotes by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      Because as far as I know, every State or Country charges tax for profit. Now, there may be deductions that allow that profit to go away, and thus the tax is zero - but there is still a non-zero tax rate on actual profit.

      So, the question is not whether the corporations pay taxes on profits, but whether they are able to say their profits aren't profits, but rather pennies from heaven.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    19. Re:Here's some quotes by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      Note that they are only able to say "profits aren't profits" by taking legal tax deductions. Meaning those aren't actual profits.

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
  25. Fixed your quote by jackspenn · · Score: 1

    Correction: Good parenting means not letting your children become shit, regardless of the state of the school, corporations or politicians in control down the road.

    --
    Respect the Constitution
  26. NO! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Good parenting means keeping your kids off Beta.

    1. Re:NO! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Came for this. Left, after a delay, satisfied.

    2. Re:NO! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Go back to Fark.com

  27. Charter school... by BrookHarty · · Score: 3, Informative

    Many many decades ago, I went to a charter school for k-6th grade. The school had to allow everyone in the area as part of its opening up in a richer suburb. I lived along the border and was included in the school map. School had computers while only the jr high and high schools. My parents could have never afforded to to send me to a private school with lower population sizes and computers. I was lucky. And being a poor rowdy kid, they never kicked me out. Lucky that's where I got my introduction into computers.

    Only thing I'd like to see is smaller classes, and charter schools on average have higher. This is supposedly with them kicking poor performing kids out. But charter schools differ so much, there is no "standard" model used. I think we can all agree smaller classrooms with more individual help is what schools should have, but thats gets very expensive. I'd rather take all those billions of dollars in state taxes on alcohol and marijuana taxes go to directly fund schools instead...

  28. Re:At least that's a winner for the new motto by Hognoxious · · Score: 3, Funny

    There's always usenet.

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  29. Re:Charter Schools = Republican control & prof by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    And how exactly is sending our kids to schools that are not failing and who have and maintain actual standards

    "Siphoning the education spending pie into Republican pockets"???

    The education pie should not be going to commie Democrats, which it has been for many years now, any more that it should be going to Republicans (which to my knowledge it does not). The whole reason that our education system is broken is because of the teachers unions and the entanglement with the Democrat party, who would sooner cut off their left arm than face the real problems in the education system.

  30. Re:At least that's a winner for the new motto by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Taking over the place for a few days is not 'trashing everything'. Don't be so short-sighted.

    Boycotting the stories forced them to try to explain themselves, but we still need to force them to abandon the Beta plans. Every on-topic post reduces the chance they'll break.

  31. More efficient! by matbury · · Score: 2

    It looks like US education is moving towards a more efficient and profitable business model. Too bad learning outcomes aren't profitable.

    Next, the corporations will lobby to de-couple learning outcomes from awarding funding to privatised schools. It might work well for the school-to-prison pipeline; lots of profit to be had from funnelling children into correctional facilities.

    1. Re:More efficient! by Papaspud · · Score: 1

      Learning outcomes could be profitable, the schools that teach the best will have more students and or be able to charge more.

      --
      Everything above is my opinion....YMMV
    2. Re:More efficient! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Learning outcomes could be profitable, the schools that teach the best will have more students and or be able to charge more.

      That's only profitable for the school. The point of education is to be profitable for the student, and by extension, to society at large.

      I got my education in public schools. It's all my family could have afforded. These days they try to play shell games using vouchers, but as a taxpayer I don't like that because I consider it nothing but a shell game to rob the public system to put private enterprises on welfare. I'd rather fix the public system than spread the breakage amongst a horde of smaller, entities. If they want to operate the way other businesses do, without dipping into my tax dollars, well and good. If they want to provide scholarships so that they can recruit good students who cannot afford them otherwise, likewise fine. But I don't want socialized private enterprise and especially not for education.

    3. Re:More efficient! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Competition works like this (in the case of school vouchers): once the decision of who gets to teach kids is placed in the hands of parents, if even a small percentage of parents care about their kid's education, that will be enough to punish the bad schools and reward the good schools. The more parents care, the more punishment and reward will go towards those who deserve it. School vouchers won't "spread the breakage," it'll fix the system cleanly and simply.

    4. Re:More efficient! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly, it is crazy that people can easily grasp the market of say smart phones, where bad products are not purchased and bad companies go under (i.e. windows phone/Nokia) while good products sell large volumes and good businesses grow (i.e. iPhone & Apple), positively re-enforcing smart choices by a company making a better product, but when it comes to education, they can't grasp that the same concept would result in a better product for everyone. They use the "some will be left behind" argument, but right now we have millions trapped in failing schools TODAY and they don't give a care or have a clue apparently... The fact that there is even so much debate on this topic just shows the power of the teachers union and the truth of the old adage: "If you tell a lie long enough and loud enough the people will believe it."

    5. Re:More efficient! by matbury · · Score: 1

      Hi Papaspud,

      Education doesn't work like retail; retail has a blindingly fast turnaround (in months and quarters). Changes in education policy and/or learning and teaching approaches don't normally show up until 10-15 years later. Educational organisations and institutions base their reputations on records of excellence and achievement going back generations. I don't think today's venture capitalists (Gates' Foundation, Walmart, Google Venture, et al) are that patient and so they're unlikely to invest in any meaningful, effective educational endeavours.

      That, and learning isn't a business transaction.

  32. Not quite. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Slashdot Beta == Any given Linux DE. Rob Malda == Adlof Hitler.

  33. I want my TAX dollars spent the way that I want by portforward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Do you have a child in a failing school? Have you spent time time talking to clueless administrators? One of them told me "it was against state law" to teach the multiplication tables. They won't teach fractions except for 1/2, 1/3 and 1/4. That is unfortunate because you don't get to pick your fractions in algebra. One of the (first grade) teachers directly criticized my wife for not speaking more to my son in Spanish. The kindergarten teacher said he "didn't want parents in the classroom". The public school principal spoke with me in very thinly disguised contempt.

    I could either run for school district or send my son to a charter school. When we asked about math, the principal of the charter school said, "Oh, so that is why none of the fifth graders who come from the school district can't do math."

    So no, my presence, my ideas, my concerns were not welcome at the public school. Your theories fail the actual children in the schools. I like choice. What does it matter that a "corporation" does it rather than the school district? If you don't like charter schools, then don't send your children to one. If enough people don't like them, they will close.

    1. Re:I want my TAX dollars spent the way that I want by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That sort of defeats the purpose of paying taxes doesn't it? I mean, you could just as easily argue that if you don't have kids, then you shouldn't have to pay into public schools, or you only want to pay for the roads you drive on, or that you don't want to pay to fund law enforcement because you engage in illicit activities.

      There are problems with our public schools, but I don't think diversion of funding into charter schools while educational funding is already being slashed is the solution.

    2. Re:I want my TAX dollars spent the way that I want by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      Do you have a child in a failing school?

      Did you know that for every charter school that does better than a public school, two charters are worse?

      Have you spent time time talking to clueless administrators? One of them told me "it was against state law" to teach the multiplication tables.

      You think your anecdotes are going to improve after schools are privatized and all the owners care about is the bottom line? You could be dirt poor and still win a seat on your local board of education. If you're dirt poor, how do you plan on buying a seat on Kaplan's board of directors so you have some say over how your schools are run?

  34. It's a bribe, pure and simple by lfp98 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    These charter-school folks have a long-term agenda, and that is the conversion of public education from a public service to a fully privatized profit center, with the added perk of eliminating teachers unions as a political force. A key factor in achieving this is that wealth inequality has become so extreme that local governments no longer have the resources to educate the nation's children, but billionaires do. Can parents and boards of education afford to say "no" when, in the face of decaying buildings and teacher layoffs, big-time donors come offering modern, well-staffed facilities, with all the latest IT and other equipment, if only you let the donors do it their way? Once the public school system is reduced to being merely a dumping ground for the worst, most disruptive and unresponsive students, the donors won't have to be so generous, they'll be making handsome profits as the contractors in a privatized fee-for-service education system. It's just like the 1990s when deep-pocketed for-profit HMOs offered healthcare at below-market rates. Once all the nonprofit hospitals and insurers were driven out of business, the for-profits jacked up premiums at double-digit rates for decades. It was a brilliant strategy, and it's happening all over again, in education.

    1. Re:It's a bribe, pure and simple by Jason+Levine · · Score: 2

      This isn't just the charter school movement but the whole Common Core garbage as well. Common Core supporters claim that it was written by educators, but there were only two on the panel and they refused to sign the finished document. Meanwhile, we've been hearing over and over again how our kids are failing and how it's all the fault of teachers. Why? So companies like Pearson can swoop in to "save" us. They get paid big bucks to administer high stakes tests to show just how much students are learning. If the students don't progress enough on the tests, the teachers are held responsible.

      Of course, no one is allowed to see the tests except the students when they take them. I personally know 4 teachers who peaked though and when they tried to answer a multiple choice test for elementary school students, they each got a different answer. If four teachers with Master's degrees can't figure out the answer, what chance will students have?

      The answer is that the students are SUPPOSED to fail. During the first round of tests, New York state students had a 31% passing rate. This meant that the tests claimed that 69% of New York State students were failing. Except that Pearson has a financial incentive to show that students are failing. Failing students might mean more money from test prep books, courses for students, courses on teaching for teachers, and sessions for administrators. Passing students? No more sales.

      What's more, Bill Gates has a company called InBloom that is being deployed in New York State. Data on students (everything from names and addresses, to grades and medical information) is being uploaded to Amazon Cloud Servers. Parents have no say. We can't opt out or refuse. (A judge in a recent court case just reaffirmed this, though I expect another appeal.) The data *is* going to go to the cloud whether we like it or not. Once there, it will supposedly be used to help school officials, but InBloom has reserved the right to sell the data as they see fit. Even if they don't, though, I don't like all of my sons' data in the Cloud. How long until those cloud servers are hacked?

      The more that our students "fail", the more the corporations can sink their teeth into the educational system. The more they do this, the more money they can pull out of it to "educate" our kids. All of this is just an attempt to profit off of our kids.

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    2. Re:It's a bribe, pure and simple by Solandri · · Score: 4, Informative

      These charter-school folks have a long-term agenda, and that is the conversion of public education from a public service to a fully privatized profit center, with the added perk of eliminating teachers unions as a political force. A key factor in achieving this is that wealth inequality has become so extreme that local governments no longer have the resources to educate the nation's children, but billionaires do.

      Local governments have plenty of resources to educate the nation's children. The U.S. spends more on education per student than any other country in the world. K-6 spending is 4th highest in the world, 7-12 is 5th highest (both about 40% more than the OECD average), and post-HS spending is highest in the world. The result of all this spending? Performance at or below the OECD average.

      The problem isn't lack of money. The schools are completely awash in it.

    3. Re:It's a bribe, pure and simple by khallow · · Score: 1

      It's just like the 1990s when deep-pocketed for-profit HMOs offered healthcare at below-market rates.

      That's based on the unwarranted assumption that there actually is a market rate for health services.

    4. Re:It's a bribe, pure and simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If 4 teachers with Master's degrees couldn't agree on answers to an elementary school test, then all that suggests to me is that their Master's degrees represent paper certificates, rather than actual qualification.

      Here's the link to Common Core: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Core

      The entire reason why companies like Pearson exist, is that teachers, as a regular tactic, were found to be coaching their students through tests to get "passable" results. The whole learning process had been so subverted that no one outside of the education industry believed any of the numbers school districts were claiming. Educators own loss of credibility and integrity over the last 30 years led us there. By the same token, while Pearson may have a financial incentive to show students failing, districts have a financial incentive to show students passing. But guess what, educators had the ball in their court first.

      As for corporations wanting to sink their teeth into the edu system: when that same system has been clamoring, and getting, increased funding every year for the last 30+ years, eventually people, both good and bad, start to notice that bottomless well of money. Maybe if the edu system had been open to sunshine laws, and outside audits, and other good government practices they wouldn't now be such a tempting target. My point is, they had the opportunity, and they squandored it. Now the wolves are circling. Maybe they shouldn't have been bleating about how helpless & defenseless they were.

    5. Re:It's a bribe, pure and simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The high U.S. spending rate on higher education includes significant private funding, as seen in the chart below. In fact, nearly 64% percent of U.S. expenditures on tertiary education come from private sources such as tuition, whereas less than 10% of spending on tertiary education comes from private sources for some of the other top spenders such as Denmark, Sweden and Norway.

      This does not show that the public education system is "awash" in money.

    6. Re:It's a bribe, pure and simple by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      Lies, damn lies, and statistics. Your average high school in Teabagger, Mississippi, hardly has the same resources or funding as a high school in Beverly Hills. Claiming that public schools have plenty of money - ignoring the vast disparity in their primary source of funding, property taxes - is to have willful ignorance of the conservative war on public education over the last 30 plus years. And the bipartisan war on schools starting with Bush's NCLB, expanded upon by Obama's Race To The Bottom.

  35. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  36. andrew carnegie of our time? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Andrew Carnegie was a ruthless industrialist. He would rather spend the extra money building *free* public libraries than give his blue collar workers a raise. Today we have Carnegie Mellon University, Carnegie Hall, (and many others) which only reaches the college-educated masses, which by the way only constitutes 25% of US population. Is this a tax on the poor the same way Walmart is "exploiting" so only the well-to-do benefits? Then what about the lottery, which I have heard in some circles being called the "tax on the poor and stupid?"

    I don't think Walmart is as evil as people claim, but I don't think they're the angel philanthropists they're trying to portray themselves.

    People are complicated. Complex, emotional, walking bags of blood.

  37. Seriously? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So Walmart opens up 45 minutes away from my home town, most local business close within a year. The community's economy took a huge hit, but in that town 45 minutes away, they see their local businesses close doors to a company selling USA made products, they counted the new jobs, not the small businesses lost. What a victory.... The town also saw their average wage drops as well, but more jobs right? Years later Sam Walton dies and shortly after that Wallmart is selling almost entirely foreign made products, nothing local, not even the owners. How hypicritcal can be, you strong arm a community calling it capitalism, became greedy and sold cheaper products at higher prices without the care of the community. You siphon off any remaining wealth the community has, then you say charter schools owe their souls to Walmart, Walton's? Those charter schools with privilege kids owes their souls to the underprivileged kids who now have a much harder chance to even match the same wealth class as their parents.

  38. Change your settings by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Change your settings. I have humor as -4. Voila.

  39. And? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why the fuck is this "news"? I don't worry Who funds education; I worry about the quality of education. Now, if the curriculum is not optimal, that's a different matter. However, the source of the funds do not automatically translate into optimal/not-optimal education.

  40. Fines and philanthropy by giorgist · · Score: 1

    Much like a city depends on fines for it's budget so will the government on philanthropy. The government would spend more on social causes if philanthropy did not exist. Cities would not have a vested interest in not reducing income from fines if it did not depend on it for its budget.

  41. huh? by Khashishi · · Score: 1

    I'm confused. At first glance I thought the summary was saying that the Waltons were donating hundreds of millions to charter schools as an act of grand philanthropy. I'm sure the schools could use the money. But it looks more like the money is going toward lobbyists for charter schools and not charter schools themselves. Am I reading that right? I'm sure that's exactly what kids need.

    1. Re:huh? by Jason+Levine · · Score: 2

      Charter schools get their money from the public school system. The Waltons are giving money, not to open schools, but to "convince" politicians that what their failing school districts really need is to open a charter school and wind up giving even LESS money to the failing public schools. And if that didn't work, open a second or third charter school. And if the charter schools are failing, deploy the lobbyists to convince the politicians that it shouldn't be closed. (One charter school by us missed their self-reported goals for 6 years. When they were threatened with a shut down, the lobbyists were deployed and they were given another year. The next year, they missed their goals again and were finally shut down, though not without a fight.)

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
  42. Even better.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Step one: Form a union for government employees.
    Step two: Force all government employees to join said union.
    Step three: Force all government employees to pay dues to said union.
    Step four: Have the government collect dues from government employee's paycheck and pass it directly to the union
    Step five: Funnel millions of dollars of dues from employees to those politicians that favor you.
    Step six: Wind up with government for the government by that government, AKA the Democratic Party. Fuck the people who pay for it.

  43. Re:12 children per class; the money is there by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Another problem with public state run schools. In CA they got around $9k per student last year. In a classroom of 30 kids, do the math: $270k/classroom. The teacher gets paid $70K in salary and benefits, that leaves $200k, assuming $20k a year to provide the room and books, that leaves $180k a year that gets blown out the ass of the state run schools on principals, administrators, superintendents, union facilities workers, janitors and who knows what else incompetent wasteful spending. This is the fundamental problem with state run schools, they are incompetent on almost every level.

    Caring for your children is a basic genetic imperative, and I would lay dollars to doughnuts that by far more parents care about their kids than anyone else, teachers included. There are exceptions, but I would wager that there are far more teachers who don't care than parents who don't care. If parents could vote with vouchers, the free market would chop out most of this fat and waste and the resulting schools would be much more efficient and effective, bad teachers would be flipping burgers, people who are good at teaching would be teaching with just a basic requirement to know the subject matter, and we could also easily cut the classroom size to 12 or so students per class, without any increase in spending at all...

  44. Re:At least that's a winner for the new motto by dryeo · · Score: 1

    Until the trolls show up. Gets tiring spending more time adding things to the kill file rather then discussing. Currently most of usenet is great because the idiots are on web forums.

    --
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
  45. OMG Links! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Can there be any more links to articles than this summary?

  46. Can't be worse then governement run education by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I rather see corporations spend billions then having that money come tax payers. The lack of education I think comes down to the parents, if the parents don't take any interest in their education other then "whats your grade?" then that "wealth inequality" (which is a very stupid term to begin with) will get bigger as the kids who want to learn will out earn those who drop out or just don't care.

    Get rid of teacher unions, make it so teachers can actually be fired, make it so teachers WANT to be good teachers. Stop thinking that just throwing more and more money at education can fix anything.

  47. Some WA counties already have "choice" schools by rwa2 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Some of the public school systems right nearby Bill G. already have something of an alternative to private charter schools.
    http://www.lwsd.org/schools/Ch...

    So not sure why they have to push so hard to get private charter schools stood up.

    Admission is by lottery, which is just as self-selecting for motivated parents as charter schools... that is to say, you will probably get into one of them if you bother to apply. Once in, you're expected to put in so many hours of community service (both students and parents), as well as make a "voluntary" donation of $200 per year (as a public school, they can't really mandate collection).

    The schools themselves tend to be small and very tightly-knit. They're usually run entirely by a handful of "star" teachers with free reign over the curriculum and virtually no administration... they usually share a principal from the nearest conventional school. The real "scam" is some legal loophole that allows these schools to be built with none of the extra facilities - usually when school campuses are constructed, they need a certain minimum allotment of athletic fields, gyms, cafeterias, multipurpose rooms, etc. While some of these choice schools have such things, the majority of them are just a handful of classrooms - so funds are purely focused on academics (kids can still participate in sports and activities at their local conventional school). The other scam is no school busses; parents have to drive the kids there themselves, though a lot of them carpool and the kids also get public bus passes.

    So it's actually not all that much different than what you describe. Most of them have themes (art/theater , environmentalism, politics, foreign language / history, STEM, etc.). The big complaint is that there aren't more of them, which is funny because they appear to be much cheaper to run than most typical school campuses and draw on a lot of parent involvement.

  48. the problem isn't money, it's control by stenvar · · Score: 1

    For the time being, though, it looks like America's going to continue to depend on the tax-free kindness of wealthy strangers to educate its kids

    America spends vast amounts of money on its public education system, but it's not yielding better outcomes.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...

    What these people who you denigrate as "wealthy strangers" are doing is provide a better, and usually less costly, alternative for education, after public schools have already sucked vast amounts of money out of the pockets of low and middle income Americans and wasted them on a poor public school system.

    Hey, when the U.S. Secretary of Education turns to corporate sponsors and auctions to fund his Mother's afterschool program for kids of low-income families in the President's hometown, don't look for things to change anytime soon."

    No, of course, things won't change. The problem with US public education isn't lack of money; it has plenty of that, it's is structure: an ineffective mix of curricula, bureaucracy, social engineering, tenure, unions, test scores, and outdated teaching methods. And the solution is to create alternative forms of schooling, and private money is important for that because tax dollars alone can't do it, in large part because of demagogues and ideologues like you.

    Taking more money in taxes and shoving it into a failing educational system under the control of the same people who have given us our current system won't help students; creating viable and better alternatives, tailored to the needs of communities, will.

  49. Re:At least that's a winner for the new motto by unitron · · Score: 1

    "Fact is though, the beta protest movement has its place."

    And you'd like it confined to a "free speech zone" far from where anyone will actually be aware of it?

    --

    I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.

  50. Bring back company scrip to replace the US$ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    and the road to serfdom will be complete

  51. Re:At least that's a winner for the new motto by Luckyo · · Score: 1

    Because clearly this is an issue of free speech. Arguing against people spamming topics with item completely unrelated is stifling free speech.

    And somewhere, people are hooking up generators to bodies of people who actually fought for free speech, to make money on electricity they will generate after that claim.

  52. Time to Raise Prices at Walmart by turkeyfish · · Score: 1

    In order to secure desires of the owner's of Walmart concerning how education is to be granted in the USA, everyone should accept higher prices at WalMart. Its not as if you have a choice in the matter anyway.

  53. Yes, by turkeyfish · · Score: 1

    especially in a highly dynamic technological society, where all parents have an innately excellent grasp of differential equations and the advanced mathematics needed to be competitive in the marketplace.

  54. Who needs Usenet by turkeyfish · · Score: 1

    Who needs usenet, when we can still send smoke signals. Global warming is just a lie anyway, right?

  55. Would be a bit easier to use, if default font size by turkeyfish · · Score: 1

    If they just increased the default font size a little and if one could more clearly mod-up posts which are actually on topic.

  56. Absolutely by turkeyfish · · Score: 1

    As everyone knows that most parents have a far better understanding of differential equations and other mathematics skills than do math teachers. Besides, parents always have Fox News to rely on if they are weak on subjects such as history, social studies, as well as how to prepare their children for a reverse mortgage and life in the unemployment line.

    1. Re:Absolutely by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Two families, one has no knowledge of differential equations, but provide love and nurturing for their child and care for what is best for them; the other know differential equations but could care less how their child does - which one do you think will have the 'better'' outcome? Do you define 'better' is being a heroin addicted strung out person (e.g. Philip Seymour Hoffman) thinks professional success is more important than a balanced life?

    2. Re:Absolutely by fredprado · · Score: 1

      Parents don't need to understand differential equations. By the time their children need to understand differential equations they will be more than ready to decide which college they want to go themselves.

      And that is a huge fallacy in the ends. Parents can and do consult specialists to help their children. That happens every time they take their children to the doctor, for example, they don't need to be medics themselves to be able to provide medical care to their children.

      Governments on the other hand try to apply the same formula based on prejudices, technocracy, political views and mediocrity to all children in the public school system, and care very little if the results are really beneficial to these children.

  57. Kentucky Charter School by turkeyfish · · Score: 1

    Is that the one that teaches intelligent design and creationism in biology class?

    1. Re: Kentucky Charter School by marcgvky · · Score: 0

      I am unfamiliar with that school, and no, it is not the school to which I refer. If your implication is that you object to that teaching, I agree with you. However, in this situation, the parents are able to withdraw their children and return them to public school, if they find that religious teaching objectionable. However, the contra is not true for parents whom are financially challenged; without an alternative to which they can send their child and the means to send them to that alternative (I.e. Vouchers), they are stuck. I would like to empower those under privileged children and their parents, to enable them to make their own choices.

  58. It is essential to keep lobbing costs down by turkeyfish · · Score: 1

    So that the 60% of the money to pay teachers can instead go to charter school administrators, whose salaries vault into the 7 figure range. Clearly, one of the advantages of being a not-for-profit charter, just like the NFL.

  59. Watch Out by JimSadler · · Score: 1

    In counties that have large school systems you can bet your last dime that organised crime has infiltrated many departments. That last 6% of so of funds that just can't be pinned down by audits is available for criminals and in billion dollar school systems that 6% is a huge ongoing pay day. Here is the way it actually works out. Somebody decides that efficiency saves money. A county with 200 schools will open a building and trades department so that each school does not have to hire out maintenance work. Also new construction and contracted repairs will be handled by a central source. That will involve a huge fleet of maintenance men and vehicles and equipment. Because of the shear size of such departments any audit will in itself consume millions of dollars and virtually cripple a maintenance department for months. It also means that organised crime will target positions and individuals with planning and maintenance departments, Purchases and contracts can be steered to include Mafia owned or controlled vendors. I have seen first hand the vast waste caused by this issue and can tell you that it even reaches deep into local governments and can even reach out and control law enforcement and investigations as the sheer size and complexity of the issues make elected officials very shy about upsetting such a huge apple cart. Not to mention that anyone who allows himself to be seen as vaguely aware of the nonsense will limit is career in such a system.

  60. Is that the same Kentucky charter school by turkeyfish · · Score: 1

    Is that the same Kentucky charter school that teaches intelligent design and creationism in biology class?

  61. Puhlease by WillyWanker · · Score: 1

    Bitch is worth $20+ billion. $158 million is what, like a half a day's pay? It's chump change for a Walton. Want to be a real humanitarian? Spend some of those billions ensuring your workers earn a living wage so their kids don't have to live in poverty while they're not attending one of your fancy expensive charter schools.

    1. Re:Puhlease by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sleazeball disses a philanthropist. News at 10.

  62. Oh noes.. by cyberchondriac · · Score: 1

    This is a story? Rich people (read: evil people.. unless they're Warren Buffet or George Soros) donate to help kids' educations, let's denounce that and find all kinds of fault with it because it wasn't from a democrat sponsored and controlled government program. This reeks of one-sided leftist propaganda seeking to accuse the other of propaganda.
    This is all about rallying against the freedom of charter schools because big government and teacher unions can't exercise the level of control over them they want to.

    I'm so sick of this posturing from opposite ends of the aisle: but this is illustrative of the fact that the left is all for "compassion" only as long as they can claim exclusive ownership of it and can twist it into a PR bonanza; if the other side does anything remotely similar, it's ridiculed and belittled, items are sarcastically referred to in quotes ('research and evaluation'), you get stories like this and.. well, Melissa Harris-Perry. Amazing hypocrisy and piety at work.
    I'm perfectly positive that Gates and Wallmart have some ulterior motives at work, in fact - tax write offs at least.. but this is absolutely as true of the left as it is the right. They all do things for ulterior motives.

    --

    Look back up at my post, now look back down, you're on the Internet. Now look back up. I'm a signature.
  63. What is the price? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Makes me wonder what the price of these schools is, in the end. The extremely rich are paying the bills, does that mean they get to say what is taught or not? Are we going to end up in an era where most of our schools are privately funded by creationists? It's not an issue of separation of church and state if the state isn't involved to begin with.

    It makes me worried about what our country is going to turn into. The republicans keep trying to privatize everything, and make sure that privatized things don't have to follow the rules. So, instead of this being a country of the people, by the people and for the people it's going to turn into a country where a very small population, a royal caste if you will, decides everything for everyone else and there's not a thing we're going to be able to do about it.

    1. Re:What is the price? by plopez · · Score: 1

      Yes and yes. Mark my words. Oh, and don't expect a critical look at US history either.

      --
      putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
  64. How long be for Creationism is required? by plopez · · Score: 1

    The Walton's aren't exactly liberals.

    --
    putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
  65. It Ain't Charters or Teachers by Borg+Bucolic · · Score: 2

    It seems that whenever a discussion/argument about occurs, whether it be about charter vs. public or whatever, the conversation almost always comes down to good teacher / bad teacher. There are then anecdotes about their personal experiences in school and that sets the stage for all the commentary afterwards. To begin, each person's experience is unique. Each person had one school experience, in one place, and at one time. This is equivalent to having taken one flight to one place, once and being qualified enough to tell all the other pilots how to fly airplanes. If you say to a person, “Since you know so much, why not become a teacher and show us how to do it right.” That same person will demure, “No, I couldn't be a teacher. I couldn't deal with a classroom of kids all day long. It would be too stressful.” No where did this person mention, charter vs. public, what they were teaching, or anything else outside of dealing with students. Deep down, people know that it boils down to a classroom full of unruly children and the stresses of all the “outside” experts telling you how you should do your job. They are right. If you can't handle the stress, you shouldn't be there. Moreover, you shouldn't make judgments about the people who are. In my experience, there are two basic kinds of teachers. There are those that had a pleasant educational experience. They graduated, went to college, got certified, and began teaching. This is the only career they really ever had or experienced. They got a rude awakening once they entered the classroom. The other kind had a career first. They did this for years, then started a new career in teaching. These teachers have a more realistic view about what these kids are going to face after they get out of school. In both cases, these teachers have the understanding that all the problems in societies boil down to hate, bigotry, greed, and poverty. Mostly, societies act this way out of ignorance and fear of the unknown. The only effective way to make the world a better place is to make the unknown, known. What better place to start than with the young? Teachers, for the most part, are interested in promoting social justice. Unless, something ruins them. Teachers are like cops. Teachers usually have teacher friends. It is the only people they deal with every day except kids. Just like cops and criminals, who else would understand your life? Who else could you talk to? Certainly, not parents. They are only interested in their “little Tommy”. They could care less about any other child. Like all institutions, schools contain many different kinds of jobs, each with their own agenda. So among staff, there is a lot of political intrigue. Whether a school is concerned with satisfying a state's needs for accountability or satisfying a charter's income needs, the politics is the same. The only difference is the cause. The public thinks that teachers get a 3 month vacation every year with pay. The reality is that teachers are only paid for 9 months work and laid off for 3 months. Only, their paychecks are spread throughout the year. The public also thinks those 3 months are a vacation. Many teachers work summer schools, take courses to keep their certifications, or take summer jobs. In any case, they are not “having fun” taking time off. Many teachers plan lessons during the summers, because what they teach and how they teach is constantly being directed and changed by outside forces every year. Pedagogy, the practice of teaching, is both an art and a craft and have to be constantly tweaked to improve practice on an ever-shifting sand, of politics, policies, and educational standards or reform. Teachers do not have as many rights as other people. They are basically public figures without the fame. Anything you say, write, or do publicly could be a career ender even if it is perfectly legal. If a teacher were to promote gay marriage, legalization of cannabis, be caught publicly smoking cigarettes or drinking, that could end their jobs. The

  66. They give away the fruit, but never the trees. by NewYork · · Score: 1
  67. Public schools by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    gosgog:
      Some years back I lived in South Houston, Texas, where we had NASA headquartered. This local Public school, in an a strong middle class location with many kids who had a dad working for NASA. The school in my opinion was AWFUL. I went to a few parent teacher meetings! At one point I questioned daughter,"what are you doing with that lurid paperback novel?" Answer, "we have to provide a book report"...."are you gonna read that book?" Answer "No I just read the Blurb about it on the Back Cover & turn it in!" SO I WENT AND ASKED THE ENGLISH TEACHER "why aren't your class reading 'Classics'....answer. "we don't have any books!" & she showed me a couple of sheets of paper, with the type of lessons she was provided by the school..."Have your kids do a Book Review" was one such! Another time I asked same daughter."Why are you taking your Mom's make up?" ....answer "Oh we're gonna learn how to use make up in domestic science today!"...this a 14 year old who already used make up!.....American Public Schools...UGH!

  68. Re: N8_f Love the quotes by rsmorgan · · Score: 1

    American's prefer to 'own' their children. Thus we have few gains (evolution) and continue to harbor prejudice and promote greed. Tis how we beat (mostly killed) the Indians and others out of their lands and stuff, lives. We're Christians and God Help you! Many schools or perhaps most dwell on competition and not cooperation. It often gets worse in college depending on the path you're on. You've heard the motto: "Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing." Besides Wolves are too much like Dolphins, only not on the menu, as yet.

  69. Here's some quotes by rsmorgan · · Score: 1

    Hard to know what's charity if the agenda is produce more of the same. And the number one reason they do this stuff is for the tax deductions they get and PR, plus pick the schools who will teach them to be good little Associates and later, impoverished greeters or Box dwellers, down by the river.

  70. This 'Post' by mr.witherspoone · · Score: 1

    Why are there so many 'single quotes' in this 'Post'?

    Are 'double quotes' just for rich people? Or are we telling the interpreter to 'ignore' and special characters inside them?

       

  71. Public schools by Sciath · · Score: 1

    There's more to being a good parent than doing what only benefits your own child. Being a good parent includes creating a community for the benefit of everyone, which in the end benefits each individual. Parents abandoning the public school system only benefit your own child or an elitist sub-group of students. Parent should have the ability to "home school" if they choose. But that process should merely be an option via the local public school system. Meaning materials etc. are distributed via the local public schools. Not via some *for profit" (read "personal gain) enterprises. School vouchers are undermining not only local public schools but also dumbing down national public school systems by sucking valuable resources out of those educational systems. For what? The ability of a select group of parents to send their kids to elitist schools? Charter schools have the option of selecting who they want to educate. Public schools don't have that option. And privately run charter schools often require that parents be "engaged" in their children's educations. Public schools don't have the ability to demand the same. Their mandated to take any and all, where the parents are engaged or not. And that's why the public schools give the appearance of "failing". Parents have a sense of entitlement and feel ALL the educational responsibility falls upon the public schools and teachers. When the biggest problem is a vast majority of parents have abandoned their responsibilities to ensure their students are meeting educational standards. So, the problem with the public schools is the attitude on the part of parents in general.

    --
    "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire
  72. You nailed it by OrugTor · · Score: 1

    You've done a great job covering the major criticisms of charter schools. The Arizona charter school system exemplifies all of the problems, and more. The 'more' is the faith element. Many charter schools are religious and while the Catholics and Mormons (big in this state) are supportive of science teaching there are others teaching faith instead of facts. I accept that parents must be allowed to make education choices for their offspring, however execrable, but it should never be on the public dime. Another aspect that may be the tip of an iceberg is the corruption engendered by the absence of accountability. Some charter schools here get their supplies from a corporation run by the school's owners' cronies such that they pay over the top prices. Again, the taxpayer is footing part of the bill. To me, the most disturbing element is the lack of accountability. Once accountability is removed mostly bad things happen, true in any context but worse in any profit center masquerading as a public benefit.