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Microsoft Circles the Wagons To Defeat ODF In the UK

Posted by Soulskill on from the tell-them-ODF-is-bigger-on-the-inside dept.

Andy Updegrove writes "Three weeks ago, we heard that Francis Maude, a senior UK government minister, was predicting the conversion to open source office suites by UK government agencies. Lost in the translation in many stories was the fact that this was based not on an adopted policy, but on a proposal still open for public comment — and subject to change. It should be no surprise that Microsoft is trying to get the UK to add OOXML, its own format standard, to the UK policy. Why? According to a messaging sent to its UK partners, because it believes that a failure to include OOXML 'will cause problems for citizens and businesses who use office suites which don't support ODF, including many people who do not use a recent version of Microsoft Office or, for example, Pages on iOS and even Google Docs.' Of course, that's because Microsoft pushed OOXML as an alternative to ODF a decade ago. If you don't want the same objection to be valid a decade from now, consider making your views known at the Cabinet Office Standards Hub. The deadline is February 26."

26 of 89 comments (clear)

  1. OOXML not included in old Office either by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    failure to include OOXML 'will cause problems for citizens and businesses who use office suites which don't support ODF, including many people who do not use a recent version of Microsoft Office'

    IIRC, OOXML isn't in any version of MS Office that doesn't have ODF support.

    1. Re:OOXML not included in old Office either by tbuddy · · Score: 2

      There are converters for the older versions, which I won't say makes it worth it, but they are there. I used them on the Mac version so we didn't have to upgrade above 2000 era Office. Mac converter is just drag and drop, doesn't allow you to save back to it, not that anyone would want to.

    2. Re:OOXML not included in old Office either by the_povinator · · Score: 4, Informative

      Their statement seems to imply that Google Docs supports OOXML but not ODF, but the reverse is true: it supports ODF but not OOXML. I just tried the file->download as link on a document there, and one of the options is "Open Document Format (.odt)" but there is no OOXML option.

      --
      The .sig is dead, and I believe I had a hand in killing it.
    3. Re:OOXML not included in old Office either by bufke · · Score: 2

      While I support ODF, your statement is not true. Google Docs/Drive supports .docx which is OOXML.

      Now it is possible the OOXML implementation Microsoft uses could vary from the ISO standard. Microsoft could change it, obscure it, and add proprietary extensions to harm interchangeability with Google Docs and other competitors.

    4. Re:OOXML not included in old Office either by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      >.docx which is OOXML.

      No it isn't. this was known back when they pushed for OOXML to be a standard. they do not meet the standard for OOXML and are therefore NOT OOXML

    5. Re:OOXML not included in old Office either by Immerman · · Score: 2

      Worse, OOXML, as written, isn't supported by *any* version of MS Office. Just ask the folks working on compatibility plugins for other office suites. It's often close, but only the most trivial MS Office files actually comply with the standard.

      Plus there's the fact that OOXML doesn't actually fully specify a standard, often resorting to the non-informative "and this bit gets stored as a binary blob as defined by the way it's done by MS Office". Pretty lousy for a "standard" that's what, 10x as long as the roughly-functionally-equivalent ODF standard?

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    6. Re:OOXML not included in old Office either by mwvdlee · · Score: 3, Funny

      Next Microsoft is going to remove .txt support from Office and try and get all plain text files banned because office can't handle it.

      ODF is an open (truely open, not OOXML-like "open") file format. Nothing is stopping Office from supporting it if it doesn't already do so.

      They can't play the "old versions of Office"-card either, since OOXML is no more backwards compatible than ODF.

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    7. Re:OOXML not included in old Office either by Immerman · · Score: 4, Informative

      Not so. docx ~= ooxml, but there's not a single piece of software on the planet that supports OOXML as approved by purchased standards bodies. And that assumes you even grant the title "standard" to the obfuscated mess that is OOXML, where many parts of the "standard" refer to binary blobs stored in "the format used by MS Office" without any further detail.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    8. Re:OOXML not included in old Office either by Immerman · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The file format specialists working on the MS Office i/o filters for LibreOffice, etc. *can* say though, and they say it's not. There is software available to confirm that ODF files do in fact comply with the standard, and the various programmers who work with ODF can use them to confirm that their software is at least not obviously out of compliance. IIRC similar software was begun to be created created for OOXML as part of the i/o filter project, and found that it doesn't actually accurately describe DOCX, etc. Close, but not suitable for reasonable levels of interoperability. Google, LibreOffice, etc. have a choice - they can support OOXML, and end up garbling imported documents documents and exporting documents that can't be opened correctly by MS Office, or they can do their best to interoperate with MS Office, and thus be intentionally incompatible with OOXML, the standard that nobody has ever used.

      More accurately I suppose there are two standards named OOXML:
      OOXML-as-Described in the internationally ratified standards (and that's a story of obvious corruption of one of the preeminent standards bodies on the planet)
      and OOXML-as-Implemented by MS Office.

      OOXML-as-described technically qualifies for open standard requirements, even if it is longwinded, cryptic, poorly organized, and badly underspecified.
      OOXML-as-implemented does not
      Microsoft then plays the game of saying OOXMLaD is a recognized international open standard, and MS Office supports OOXMLaI, so Office should be allowed to participate in open-standards-only product bids, trusting that nobody in the procurement process will catch the fact that OOXMLaD != OOXMLaI, or can be bought off if they do.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    9. Re:OOXML not included in old Office either by ozmanjusri · · Score: 2

      Them pulling stuff out of their ass to make their product look better.

      They're not trying to make their products look better. They're trying to make competitor's products look worse.

      It's an important distinction, because it means they don't have to compete on quality or price.

      --
      "I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
  2. Making Your Views Known by CanHasDIY · · Score: 5, Funny

    If you don't want the same objection to be valid a decade from now, consider making your views known at the Cabinet Office Standards Hub. The deadline is February 26.

    The documents are on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign outside the door saying "Beware of the Leopard."

    Make sure you bring a torch.

    --
    An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
  3. 'will cause problems...don't support ODF, by jkrise · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I call bullshit. OpenOffice or LibreOffice can be configured to store files in .doc and .xls and .ppt formats - problem solved! It annoys me there are still people and govts. buying the rubbish arguments spouted by Microsoft and their ilk...

    --
    If you keep throwing chairs, one day you'll break windows....
    1. Re:'will cause problems...don't support ODF, by sexconker · · Score: 3, Funny

      I call bullshit. OpenOffice or LibreOffice can be configured to store files in .doc and .xls and .ppt formats - problem solved! It annoys me there are still people and govts. buying the rubbish arguments spouted by Microsoft and their ilk...

      People who say OpenOffice read and writes MS Office files fine can not have used this themselves on an ongoing basis for more than the simplest of files. It regularly messes up the documents, and macros. Not saying OpenOffice is at fault for this, it is just a fact, that shouldn't be falsely presented to potential users.

      Just today I had to tell someone to save to PDF before uploading because Open Office's automatic conversion (which we call on the back end) fucks shit up half the time.
      We could update to a later version of Open Office, but it'll just fuck things up differently (it'll replace all the bullets in a list with a clock icon, regardless of what font we use).

    2. Re:'will cause problems...don't support ODF, by RabidReindeer · · Score: 3, Informative

      (it'll replace all the bullets in a list with a clock icon, regardless of what font we use).

      Irony. I think most of the clocks I've seen were in genuine 100% Microsoft Word.

      However, I think I recognize your problem and it has to do (IIRC) with the fact that the font used for the bullet is not controlled by the font specification for the bulleted content itself, and I'm pretty sure that there is actually a difference between Word's handling of this nuance and Open/Libre Office handling of it.

      If that was the worst problem I had, I think a fairly simple solution could be achieved, but my definition of "fairly simple" can run up to and including unzipping the ODF and doing a "sed" replace, so your definition may vary.

  4. Problems due to inflexibility by sjbe · · Score: 5, Interesting

    OpenOffice or LibreOffice can be configured to store files in .doc and .xls and .ppt formats - problem solved!

    While true, that doesn't mean either of those products are permitted in every office. A lot of IT departments are notoriously inflexible on this sort of matter. If your organization standardizes on something, odds are they aren't going to want you using some other unapproved product. If you were to point out that this inflexibility is probably dumb, I am inclined to agree with you. Nevertheless it does occur and it is a real problem. Microsoft isn't strictly wrong here though they are being a bit disingenuous regarding some of the nuances of the situation.

    I have standardized my company on LibreOffice but its ability to read and write Microsoft Office files is imperfect at best. It's particularly bad at the more recent .docx and .xlsx files. It reads and writes them well enough to be useful most of the time but don't expect perfection.

    1. Re:Problems due to inflexibility by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If you were to point out that this inflexibility is probably dumb

      Is it?

      You're posting on Slashdot. You are probably capable of figuring out why your Open Sores Libre Viva La Revolucione Socialiste Office is fucking up a document conversion. Your IT department would put entire cities to the sword if it meant only having to deal solely with you and people like you.

      But they can't, and they don't. No, they're awash in a sea of, "MY CUPHOLDER IS BROKEN AND WHY IS THIS FOOTPEDAL SO HARD TO CONTROL!?" types.

      Standardization exists for a reason, and the reason may indeed be dumb - the reason is dumb people. That does not make standardization dumb, however.

    2. Re:Problems due to inflexibility by ClickOnThis · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I have standardized my company on LibreOffice but its ability to read and write Microsoft Office files is imperfect at best. It's particularly bad at the more recent .docx and .xlsx files. It reads and writes them well enough to be useful most of the time but don't expect perfection.

      In my experience, MS Office frequently can be incompatible with itself. I can forgive LibreOffice for having trouble with MS formats, no matter which side is responsible (wink.)

      --
      If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
    3. Re:Problems due to inflexibility by Eric+Damron · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm old enough to have lived through the entire Microsoft history of dirty tricks, disingenuous press releases and out right illegal anti-trust violations. It seems that some things never do really change.

      Part of the compatibility issues are due to the time lag caused by the need to reverse engineer Microsoft's âoeStandard.â If the past is any indication of how this company works they haven't been forthcoming on providing complete documentation to their document format. There may be a bit of the âoeWindows isn't done until Lotus won't run...â attitude left in a company that has a history of wanting not just to compete but do completely crush anything that remotely smells like competition. And if that takes lies, dirty tricks or anti-trust violations requiring decades to litigate then so be it.

      For the younger folks here: Watch this company with a skeptical eye because they don't have YOUR best interest at heart and they will do practically anything to win.

         

      --
      The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
    4. Re:Problems due to inflexibility by Dr_Barnowl · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Excellent irony by using the MS Word lsquot and rsquot characters :-)

  5. have pity on me! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Microsoft: "Have pity on me, I'm an orphan. (I killed my parents.)"

  6. Open government = open standards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    All software utilized by the government ought to be open source as a natural consequence of the source of the funds used to support it. Everyone should benefit from the government's use of technology, not just Microsoft.

    1. Re: Open government = open standards by rkhalloran · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A citizen wanting to interact with their government should not be compelled to purchase a particular company's product to do so. If I choose to mail in my tax forms, it should not require purchasing Official Government Printing Stock to do it. If I file electronically, it should not be locked in to, say, Turbotax. An open format (ODF, PDF) should be acceptable. This also frankly makes sense financially: if MS is the only company supporting OOXML (arguable, since at last check they don't even meet their own standard), then there's no possibility of price competition. If you're on an *open* format where many vendors can compete, the govt can go for best price and properly spend the money they screw us out of annually.

  7. OOXML by JavaBear · · Score: 2

    OOXML MUST DIE!

    I've have my share of fun decoding that crap. It is not a good format for anyone but Microsoft.

  8. MS does not want to improve compatibility with ODF by white_owl · · Score: 2

    People want to stay with MS Office because the compatibility of other software with the complex OOXML format is not all that good. That locks people into MS Office. The ODF format is less complex and easier to implement, so presumably Microsoft can control how well Office reads and writes ODF files.

    If ODF was the standard, then the question would be reversed from "how compatible is the alternative software with OOXML" to "how compatible is MS Office with ODF".

    Microsoft understandably does not want to have to answer the second question.

  9. Re:Well, the answer is simple... by vux984 · · Score: 2

    I'm sure there is a reason why [using RTF] that's impractical, and maybe even a good one which doesn't involve Microsoft poisoning the IT world. But what would it be?

    From wikipedia:

    The Rich Text Format (often abbreviated RTF) is a proprietary document file format with published specification developed by Microsoft Corporation since 1987 for Microsoft products and for cross-platform document interchange.

    Most word processors are able to read and write some versions of RTF. There are several different revisions of RTF specification and portability of files will depend on what version of RTF is being used. RTF specifications are changed and published with major Microsoft Word and Office versions.

    So its better than OOXML how?

  10. Negotiating tactic by RDW · · Score: 2

    A cynic might suggest that the UK Government doesn't care about file formats any more than MS does, and the whole whole "we're seriously considering alternatives" thing is just a ploy to get a better deal on Office...