Slashdot Mirror
Ask Slashdot: Modern Web Development Applied Science Associates Degree?
First time accepted submitter campingman777 writes "I am being asked by students to develop an associates of applied science in modern web development at my community college. I proposed the curriculum to some other web forums and they were absolutely against it. Their argument was that students would not learn enough higher math, algorithms, and data structures to be viable employees when their industry changes every five years. As part of our mission is to turn out employees immediately ready for the work force, is teaching knowledge-based careers as a vocation appropriate?"
What would someone with an applied science in modern web development do?
Would they work on the algorithms for applied science in a server side language like php?
Would they work in python/c++/haskell or something like fortran and hook into php?
I'd like to help, but I need some further information.
Note: I looked up this degree on google and the last result on the first page was this submission.
Eat sleep die
The fundamentals never change. With a solid base, there is nothing a programmer can't do.
An AA program focused on what will get them hired today is exactly what will not get them hired tomorrow.
1) Associates degrees are two year programs.
2) Like any other degree, the point is to get the piece of paper. You're hoping that the degree shows that people are smart enough to learn a new language with an understanding of how the language of their particular platform works in general. Web development is a lot less based in hard math/logic in general than most other forms of development. You don't train a nurse to perform open heart surgery like they're some kind of cardiologist, thus you don't need to train a javascript developer to write assembly or know advanced calculus.
I work in a company writing online billing software. We use Perl and Ruby. We don't need people who know quicksort vs. bubble sort - we need people who understand browsers, and AJAX calls, and JSON, and business logic. I never touch anything more complicated in math than basic algebra.
Javascript, CSS, and something other than PHP are what you need to know, with a leavening of SQL and XML. Screw all that CompSci crap - we don't use it in 99.9% of our code.
Why can't I mod "-1 Idiot"?
A Bachelors of Arts in anything scientific generally implies that you're not going to get enough exposure to anything you'll actually be doing, much less an associates. So sure, if you want to develop a program that teaches things they could pick up for $20 out of a book and make your college thousands, then 'Associates of Applied Science' sounds perfect.
Your hair look like poop, Bob! - Wanker.
After bouncing around the tech world several decades ago I settled into the affordable/employable community college path. After looking into my options and expenses transferring to a 4yr BS in CS was the right option for me. My local, affordable, community college was the springboard. I am grateful.
There are a lot of people who go to 4 year schools expecting a vocational training program and not a education in the principals of their field. AKA anyone who has complained about learning "fluff". A large percentage of a CompE/Computer Science program's students will state that they just want to learn what will get them a job in the real world. These same students are going to slack off in the "fluff' classes and come out with no ability to apply what they learned in those classes. It is wasted time, money, and energy. Give them another option.
To me the question is who is better off: someone who half-assed their way through a CompE degree, got out with $50,000 in debt and is still barely employable as a entry level programmer? Or someone who skipped all the "fluff" and got a 2 year practical programming degree for a fraction of the cost, and is still barely employable as an entry level programmer? I'm arguing it is the guy with less debt.
This is not an isolated problem. All vocations either do or will require life long vocational retraining. New technologies are introduced very frequently in areas such as building construction, business systems, environmental systems, mining, agriculture, metalworking, and so on. The time has passed when you could learn to weld on the xyz welder, and thereafter be employed for life, working with only that tool and that skill. When John Henry saw the stream drill, what he should have done is to put down his hammer and say "teach me to run that stream drill". The associates degree should be just the first certification -- the student needs to be taught to pursue and obtain more certifications throughout his or her working life. Also, my feeling is that the curricula needs to involve as much "why" as "how".
-- Perhaps I see less than some, but more than many.
This assumes 'web development' refers to web-based applications, not just informational webpages.
This is likely to be an unpopular opinion to many, but I don't see the huge barrier here.
I've been working as a software developer for nearly 20 years now, going from games programming to business apps to web development and machine learning. In that whole time, I can count only a small handful of times when I've ever had to exhibit mathematical skills more complex than trivial algebra. Oh sure, in college, they made me write my own compilers, I had to write my own vector math routines for my ray tracer, and so on, and I consider these valuable learning experiences. However, in the real world, where I'm employed and make money, I use software libraries for those sorts of things.
When it comes to data structures, the languages of employers today, java and c#, provide me with the majority of structures and optimized-enough algorithms to manipulate them. I don't have to do a big-O analysis and determine if my data patterns will be better served by a skip-list than a quicksort, because we just throw memory and cpu at that anyway!
The point is, if you spend 1-2 years learning to write software - not computer science theory - you'll be ready to enter the workforce. Sure, you're not going to be someone creating those frameworks, you're not going to be an architect, but you'll be able to use them. A few years of real world problems and google at your finger tips, and it's likely you'll have learned enough to start tackling those harder problems.
Here's a list of what I'd prioritize before computer science theory, in regards to employment:
- Proficient in SQL and at least one database type
- Familiar with IDEs, source control, bug/task trackers, automated builds and testing, debugging tools and techniques.
- Ability to work in a group software project.
- Exposure and participation in a full blow software development life cycle (SDLC) from reading, writing, evaluating requirements, coding, debugging, QA, unit testing, the oft-overlooked documentation, etc. Include at least something waterfall and something agile-ish.
- Expert with HTML & CSS, javascript, and awareness of javascript libraries and frameworks.
I don't think I need to explain the value of any of these, and these practical concerns trump high level concepts like discrete mathematics or heuristic design for the entry-level developer.
Javascript and HTML haven't changed all that much. CSS? It's getting to the point where change is slowing down. Web architectures have been stable for years.
Nobody in real life uses higher math in front-end web development. They might use multiplication and division to do layouts. It's debatable whether anyone actually uses algorithms. Data structures would be handy, but it's also arguable whether web developers actually understand them or not - especially if you talk to any DBA about how website A uses the RDBMS.
Web frameworks would be handy. There are general things about frameworks that don't change.
What would be good would be some discussion around the process of building a website, from customer requirements to deployment. How to choose a technology, payment processor, server technology, etc.
Oblig: http://xkcd.com/435/
And yet your boss, his boss and his boss's boss are probably either MBAs or lawyers. Go figure.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Such a degree, if it were to exist, should focus NOT on the basics of CS, but on good design.
1) Do cover human factor engineering principles and techniques. Include lab work to do usability testing.
2) Do cover the basics of good design (perhaps a joint Art department effort).
3) Do cover the foundations of programming, but using several web focused languages. C/C++/Algol and friends are wonderful, but you have limited hours.
4) Do provide an introduction to computer security. Chances are it is folks in the backend that need to focus on it, but security holes can occur anywhere.
Good luck.
i agree that anything that's relevant now will not be 2 years from now
-sarcasm on-
Yeah, remember back in the 90's when html, javascript, java, etc. were important for web developers? All long forgotten now.
Not to mention all the OOP languages that were all gone within 2 years of being introduced--like C, C++, etc.
-sarcasm off-
Do you people ever actually read what you type?
SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
Pretty much this. People going into an associates program generally are doing it for the vocational training with the expectation that when they graduate they can get a job where they continue learning and training in the craft. For this sort of curriculum you want to start with the basics of learning the relevant languages and tools, and bleed into working on practical projects before the end of the program. The biggest challenge in a two year curriculum is going to be introducing databases.
For 99% of web work, you can get by with the concept of relational databases and three SQL commands: Select, Insert, and Update.
PLEASE don't teach them delete.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
And don't confuse web *design* (as in graphic design) with web *development*
When I was in college, one of my computer science professors told us that everything he was teaching us would be obsolete by the time we graduated. However, the concepts behind what we were learning would be valuable our entire career. Sure enough, I've never used the exact code in the exact language he taught us, but the generic concepts behind that work in almost any language I program in.
My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
If language matters to the CS program, they are doing it wrong - CS is about understanding how to create programs - learning how to design is the important bit, the actual code produced is just an exercise. While there are different libraries and tradeoffs for mobile vs. PC programming, the fundamental ideas are readily transferable.
Think of the revenue stream. Every 5 years they have to retrain.
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
Not everyone building C.R.U.D. web apps needs a fucking degree. It's practically a trade skill. What we need is a mass of "good enough" programmers to do 90% of the grunt work out there and do it CHEAP.
The popularity is not equal to quality as you said. The problem with your expression is that you give no information about why it is crap but rather attack the application itself. "research where to store the most important part of their application" is a vague information for those who are not familiar with what you are talking about. Your post looks too much like mud-slinger post from a politician - "it is bad" and that's the only thing you need to know. If you really want people to stop using it, be more professional and educate the readers.
Also, all programs/applications have its own advantages and disadvantages. There are reasons why many people use them even though they have flaws. Anyone who use them MUST BE EDUCATED to know what good and bad of the programs/applications. If one can talk only the bad side, the one needs to educate oneself to find out what the good side they have because otherwise no one would ever use the programs/applications. A history of the programs/applications could help explaining as well.
So if you think everyone else is a joke and lazy, you are not that much different in the way of explanation.
PS: I am not saying MySQL is neither good nor bad, but it has its own use under certain situations.
PSS: If you are trying to express your anger, at least you could write in proper English without foul language in every single sentence.