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Exploding Oil Tank Cars: Why Trains Go Boom

Hugh Pickens DOT Com writes "Marcus Stern and Sebastian Jones report on Bloomberg that as federal regulators continue investigating why tank cars on three trains carrying North Dakota crude oil have exploded in the past eight months, energy experts say part of the problem might be that some producers are deliberately leaving too much propane in their product, making the oil riskier to transport by rail. Sweet light crude from the Bakken Shale formation has long been known to be especially rich in volatile natural gas liquids like propane and while there's no way to completely eliminate natural gas liquids from crude, well operators are supposed to use separators at the wellhead to strip out gases before shipping the oil. The worry is that some producers are adjusting the pressure settings to leave in substantial amounts of natural gas liquids and purposefully selling their crude "fluffed up" with propane to maximize their profits." (Read more, below.) "'There is a strong suspicion that a number of producers are cheating. They generally want to simply fill up the barrel and sell it—and there are some who are not overly worried about quality,' says Alan J. Troner. 'I suspect that some are cheating and this is a suspicion that at least some refiners share.' As an oil train shakes, rattles and rolls toward the refinery, the propane begins to separate from the liquid and turning into gas. If one of those cars ruptures, the propane gas inside will likely make contact with outside air. If the gas is ignited—perhaps by a spark thrown off when the car rips open or maybe a spark thrown up from steel wheels scraping over steel tracks—the car can explode. Then the burning car can act like a blowtorch on the tanker next to it and at that point, railcars can explode in domino fashion. The Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration (PHMSA) recently issued a safety alert that recent derailments and resulting fires indicate that the type of crude oil being transported from the Bakken region may be more flammable than traditional heavy crude oil. 'It's typical of this type of oil. So it's not surprising. There's no mystery to it especially if it were in a tanker not meant to carry that type of fluid,' says Ramanan Krishnamoorti referring to the much-criticized DOT-111, a black, torpedo-shaped railcar designed in the 1960s that has become the workhorse of the crude-rail industry. Washington doesn't appear to be in a rush to address the problem. On January 23, investigators at the US National Transportation Safety Board made broad recommendations that would have big consequences: They said crude oil should meet the same restrictions as toxic chemicals, which must be routed on tracks away from population centers. 'The large-scale shipment of crude oil by rail simply didn't exist 10 years ago, and our safety regulations need to catch up,' says NTSB Chairman Deborah Hersman. 'While this energy boom is good for business, the people and the environment along rail corridors must be protected from harm.'"

144 comments

  1. why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by raymorris · · Score: 2

    Why should crude oil be carried to the refineries on closed tank cars on trains anyway? That seems dangerous. Don't we have pipelines going to the refineries for that purpose?

    1. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      They've been trying to build one for years (Keystone XL) but have been stonewalled at every turn by Obama.

    2. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by Phydeaux314 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Pipelines have their own share of problems: Leaks, maintenance access, property arguments, security difficulties, animal migrations, the list goes on. They're definitely *a* solution, but not necessarily *the* solution.

      If the suspicions of the folks in the article are correct, then it's simply a case of the manufacturers trying to take advantage of the fact that contents are sold by volume, not by weight... with the minor caveat that the extra volume has a tendency to explode. The real solution, then, would be to smack the greedy bastards pulling the stunt and ensure the oil is separated enough to safely transport.

      --
      Never underestimate the stupidity inherent in all human beings.
    3. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by rossdee · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Obama can only stop the pipeline crossing the border from Canada. If they want to build it from ND to the Gulf refineries he couldn't do anything about it.

      But they should be building refineries in North Dakota, thats where the oil is, (and they could be fueled by natural gas which is also in abundance.
      Why send the oil all the way to the gulf, when the refineries there might have to shut down at times due to hurricanes (more likely due to global warming these days) and then ship it back north as refined product. Refine it in ND and then the Midwest can have sheaper gas.

      We don't need no stinking CA tar sand oil.

      Anyway the oil train that blew up was hit by another freight train that derailed due to the extreme cold.

    4. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by ArcherB · · Score: 5, Insightful

      They've been trying to build one for years (Keystone XL) but have been stonewalled at every turn by Obama.

      Not just Obama, but the by anti-oil people. They think by blocking the pipeline, they will be reducing CO2 in our atmosphere. The sad part is, they are actually INCREASING the amount of CO2 and other pollutants.

      Rather than move the oil from Canada to Texas via an electric powered pipeline, they are forcing the oil to be loaded onto trains, where they are transported to a port where they are loaded onto an oil tanker where they will be transported to China. All of these modes of transportation are diesel powered. Once in China, they will be refined by Chinese workers under Chinese environmental regulations into various petroleum products. Then they are loaded back onto tankers and shipped around the world, with all profits going to the Chinese government.

      Or, we could transport the oil to Texas refineries, where we have control over the emissions the refineries emit, by a pipeline using electrical pumps.

      Tell me which option makes more environmental sense (not to mention the economic sense!)

      --
      There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
    5. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by DarkOx · · Score: 1

      Another obvious answer, vent the tanker cars.

      --
      Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    6. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by rmdingler · · Score: 4, Informative

      If the suspicions of the folks in the article are correct, then it's simply a case of the manufacturers trying to take advantage of the fact that contents are sold by volume, not by weight...

      Sure it's about wringing more profits out of each tanker load.

      FTA: The liquified gas is worth more repurposed as crude than it can be sold for as methane or propane.

      But it also lowers the API gravity measurement (think light versus heavy crude), possibly improving the value of the entire shipment.

      --
      Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

      Ernest Hemingway

    7. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      How safe is it to vent propane and other natural gases?

    8. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      they should be building refineries in North Dakota

      Refineries cost about $10B each, take years to build, and a very long time to amortize the costs. Also, is it any safer to transport volatile products like gasoline? (serious question - I don't know).

    9. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by russotto · · Score: 2, Informative

      Obama can only stop the pipeline crossing the border from Canada. If they want to build it from ND to the Gulf refineries he couldn't do anything about it.

      Of course he could. It's interstate, so it wouldn't even be at all difficult.

      But they should be building refineries in North Dakota,

      Ha ha, build a refinery? In the US? With the EPA and every environmental group in the world standing in the way?

      Anyway, you build a refinery and now you have to move the refined product, which means instead of moving one product, you have to move several. Could make a lot more sense to ship one product to where the shipping is easier.

    10. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by DarkOx · · Score: 1

      I am only speculating here but in terms of short term consequences probably pretty safe. Automobile tanks used to simply be vented, until that was stopped for environmental and health reasons.

      Most people are not sitting in traffic with a bunch of tanker cars though, so the health issues would probably be minor. Gasoline vapors are pretty volitle and I don't recall cars exploding left and right in the past, so I think it would help the fire risk issue on the whole, especially if the trains pneumatic system was used to actively drive the vapors out of the tanks, preventing them from reaching high concentrations. Propane and Natural gas *do* have strong green house effects so from a global warming stand point its probably harmful.

      --
      Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    11. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In all fairness, I haven't heard anything good coming from a pipeline. All the news about them have to do with spills and cover-ups. I'd be happy with a small headline announcing 5 years on a pipeline without a spill. Then we can talk about adding more pipelines. Until then, I'd rather the spills / fires be contained to the limited size of a shipping container.

    12. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh so this is a golden calf worshipers in action again but why is this news?

    13. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by reboot246 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      There are already thousands of miles of oil and gas pipelines in the country. The Keystone pipeline would be much newer and safer than the older lines. It would be built with today's steel technology, not steel from the 50s or 60s. The older oil pipelines are the ones to be concerned about - they are already seeping oil into the ground. Replacing the old pipelines would indeed be a "shovel-ready" job, but nobody is talking about that.

      One of the main reasons oil from Canada is being transported by rail instead of pipelines is money. Warren Buffet is making money hand over fist transporting oil by rail, and he's one of Obama's biggest campaign contributors. THAT'S the sole reason for delaying the Keystone pipeline.

      How many more trains are going to blow up and how many lives are going to be lost before we learn?

    14. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by GrumpySteen · · Score: 4, Interesting

      But they should be building refineries in North Dakota,

      Ha ha, build a refinery? In the US? With the EPA and every environmental group in the world standing in the way?

      One is being built in North Dakota right now. It should be in operation by the end of the year.

      In other news, you and the person you responded to should take ten seconds to do a Google search before making fools of yourselves in public.

    15. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by rmdingler · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Oh so this is a golden calf worshipers in action again but why is this news?

      Because it's time to move on.

      The gossip regarding your sister's reputation has reached virtually ubiquitous saturation.

      --
      Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

      Ernest Hemingway

    16. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Interesting

      That little kid you've been stalking is GP's little BROTHER, not his sister. And, you better stop hanging around the bus stop trying to entice the boy into your van. That pedobear costume is a dead giveaway.

    17. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by Runaway1956 · · Score: 5, Informative

      " is it any safer to transport volatile products like gasoline?"

      Both yes and no. The vehicles designed to transport gasoline are engineered to somewhat higher standards, and they are inspected more frequently. Vehicles used for shipment of bulk crude aren't considered to be as dangerous, the standards were lower when they were built, they are aging, and they aren't inspected nearly as often. So, "no" gasoline is no safer to transport, the risks are higher. But, "yes" gasoline is safer to transport because the risks are managed better.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    18. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      They're a couple of refineries each handling about 20,000 bbl/day, but the Bakken fields produce about 1,000,000 bbl/day. The refineries are mostly to produce diesel, for which there has been a big surge in demand in the Bakken fields due to all the work being done there. If the pipeline does get built, they'll also be useful for dilutants.

      This is not to refute your point that you can build new refineries. However it does not refute my point that construction of new large "general purpose" refineries may not make economic sense. It wouldn't solve the shipping problem, because instead of shipping crude you'd just have to ship a nearly equal quantity of refined products.

    19. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by Redmancometh · · Score: 1

      That is not a doable solution. You don't want the natural gas, propane, etc, but you DO want volatiles that are in the oil to use for fuel. Also, again they'd be lowering the calculated volume of the oil, and get less money for it.

    20. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      "We" could also learn that tar sands really shouldn't be used to make oil from, as the whole project is stupid. Instead, just start driving energy efficient cars, as that'd easily make up the "loss" in oil production.

    21. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 1
      Crude oil is not as safe as solar energy or wind energy. The oil industry should pay the full cost of making it as safe as the renewables, not just in transportation. But also in extraction, in waste by products, pollution in extraction, pollution by use, pollution in transportation, in every aspect, the oil industry should pay the full true cost of being as safe as solar. That is the true free market of level playing ground.

      It is true pipelines would transport oil using less carbon emissions compared to rail transport. But they also reduce transportation costs, thus allow more oil to be used and allow oil to undercut renewable sources of energy. So it makes sense to oppose the pipelines. Any single rail accident would spill far less oil than a spill or break in the oil pipeline. And these accidents would create enough pressure to make the rail transport of oil safer.

      --
      sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    22. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by rhodie · · Score: 2

      Not just Obama, but the by anti-oil people.

      Not just the anti-oil people, but the people who own those railroads you speak of... Oh, right, Warren Buffet...

      http://www.bloomberg.com/news/...

    23. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Then they are loaded back onto tankers and shipped around the world, with all profits going to the Chinese government.

      What makes you think we hate the Chinese government so much that we would let all those profits going to the oil companies? There are no "our" oil companies. The oil companies would betray American interests and work to the detriment of America as easily as the international oil companies. In fact these oil companies have more than a century of manipulating our governments, our industries,our societies, our media. They had formed secret cartels to destroy the public transportation infrastructure of America. They have insidiously worked to increase urban sprawl to enrich themselves. They have whipped up public opinion to get us into wars.

      The oil industry saw how easily we beat Iraq in 1992 booting Saddam out of Kuwait. They salivated at the idea of throwing Saddam out, installing a puppet and get all the Iraqi oil at cheap rates for their cronies. We are still paying the price for that war in terms of money and in terms of hostility to America from the Middle East.

      Between the multinational oil companies and China, I would say the oil companies are the bigger threat. China has to fight a nuclear war to beat us. Oil companies would corrode us from inside out feeding on us like a wasp nymph feeds on a live but sedated pray.

      --
      sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    24. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by ArcherB · · Score: 3, Insightful

      In all fairness, I haven't heard anything good coming from a pipeline. All the news about them have to do with spills and cover-ups. I'd be happy with a small headline announcing 5 years on a pipeline without a spill. Then we can talk about adding more pipelines. Until then, I'd rather the spills / fires be contained to the limited size of a shipping container.

      There is about 100,000 miles of oil carrying pipeline in the US. If they ran a story every time one went 5 years without incident, there would no time to write about anything else.

      --
      There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
    25. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 1

      sorry for a couple of typos. as easily as china in one case. prey not pray in another case.

      --
      sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    26. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It would be built with today's steel technology, not steel from the 50s or 60s.

      That would not necessarily be a good thing, if you consider how much of that infrastructure has been exported.

      The older oil pipelines are the ones to be concerned about - they are already seeping oil into the ground. Replacing the old pipelines would indeed be a "shovel-ready" job, but nobody is talking about that.

      Then we'd learn about all the billions spent on that, and the price of oil subsidies would be even more transparent, so we'd have to talk about that. And they wouldn't like it.

      Not saying improvements aren't a good idea, it's just people don't want it known.

      One of the main reasons oil from Canada is being transported by rail instead of pipelines is money. Warren Buffet is making money hand over fist transporting oil by rail, and he's one of Obama's biggest campaign contributors. THAT'S the sole reason for delaying the Keystone pipeline.

      How many more trains are going to blow up and how many lives are going to be lost before we learn?

      I dunno, how many more pipelines are going to leak, how many more refineries going to burn, how many more tankers crash, how many more wars in the Mid-East, how many more cancer victims, how many more coal-ash spills, how many more reactor meltdowns, how many more hurricane-induced floods, how many more airplane crashes, how many more drunk drivers, how many more burning rivers....

    27. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by ArcherB · · Score: 1

      _It is true pipelines would transport oil using less carbon emissions compared to rail transport. But they also reduce transportation costs, thus allow more oil to be used and allow oil to undercut renewable sources of energy. So it makes sense to oppose the pipelines._

      No. No it doesn't. You are intentionally trying to make oil more painful so people won't use it. This only makes sense when there are viable alternatives. Sorry, but wind and solar won't get the oranges from the groves in Florida to markets in Maine. All you are doing is making everything more expensive needlessly, benefiting the Chinese worker, punishing the American worker, and again, you are increasing the amount of CO2 that gets put into the atmosphere.

      Somehow, this doesn't seem very smart.

      _ Any single rail accident would spill far less oil than a spill or break in the oil pipeline._
      Are you sure about that? Remember, that we are not just talking about rail, but also tankers that will take the oil across the ocean to China. Then, of course, the Chinese will refine it, using God knows what kind of environmental safeguards. Once it is refined, it will be loaded back into a tanker or pumped through Chinese pipelines. Still think this is a better idea than a single pipeline to US regulated refineries?

      _And these accidents would create enough pressure to make the rail transport of oil safer._
      But pipeline accidents won't create pressure to make pipelines safer?

      --
      There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
    28. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by jythie · · Score: 2

      Yeah, but you forget how "personal responsibility" works in the US. You would think that the owners and operators of these plants should take personal responsibility for their actions and the damage done by them skirting the rules, but that is not the American ethos. Personal responsibility is your ability to drive your own fate, not how you impact others. Therefor the blame here lies on the people who were too poor to live further away from the tracks. The owners acted ethically since they managed to not be hurt by those pesky laws and still earned a bunch of money.

    29. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by jythie · · Score: 1

      The EPA actually stopping something? You are kidding, right? They are little more then a rubber stamping boogie man that exists as a political punching bag. For actually protecting the environment from anyone with enough cash they are useless.

    30. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by jythie · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but baring the costs of your actions is pretty out of fashion. Right now american ethos is built around the idea of protecting yourself from others and controlling your own fate. However how you impact others is considered their own fault for not stopping you, thus it is considered ethical for the oil industry to do whatever it likes as long as it is its own master and it is the fault of the people hurt by it because they are immorally poor and weak enough to not move.

    31. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      Also, given the expected life cycle of the Baaken fields (30 years or so), their isolation compared to the rest of the country along with the costs of a 'general purpose' refinery, putting those large plants there makes little sense. Of course the industry has looked at this carefully.

      The mini refineries are getting to the point where they can be trucked in, bolted together and disassembled later. But they can't make the variety of products that a 'real' refinery can and cannot be easily modified for different grades of crude.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    32. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How is it going to get to China? British Columbia won't allow it through either last time I checked.

      And China is coming around on pollution, and if the US stopped buying every little thing from China to save a few cents, maybe it wouldn't be as bad.

      What we should do is to collect a tariff on imports into the US from China and India that we use to build renewable energy facilities in those countries.

    33. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by JimSadler · · Score: 1

      Explosive greed might be the term that fits. Another example of big business being more than willing to kill people to make another penny or two.

    34. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by dk20 · · Score: 1

      We don't need no stinking CA tar sand oil.
      You sure about that? Take a look at how much oil the US imports from canada.
      http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pe...

    35. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pipelines are more dangerous than any oil-tanker rail car; here's the Science:
      1. Rail cars are gravity bases, that is, the pressure of its cargo is 1 atmosphere. Leaks are bad, but they're not under pressure.
      2. Rail cars have a very finite capacity - i gallon of material fits in a 1 gallon rail car; scale as appropriate.
      3. Rail cars generally run on a protected and mostly isolated right-of-way.
      4. Rail cars and their infrastructure are already paid for; are cheaper to maintain and operate.
      So, match the above with a "pipeline":
      1. Pipelines are NOT gravity based and operate under incredible pressure - 600-800 PSI! A leak is able to decimate quite a large area with its spray.
      2. When a pipeline fails, quite a bit of material is loosed in the environment before it is discovered and corrected. This process can take days. A single pipeline failure can translate to the equivalent of hundreds of rail cars.
      3. Pipelines are displacing people and wrecking environmental havoc due to their harsh installation practices. Their route is best for their infrastructure, not for the economy or private property.
      4. Pipelines have an undisclosed staggering cost to the consumer, some estimates are 1 million dollars per mile.

      So, yes, a much higher level of scrutiny is required in this process than is already being exercised. So stonewalling is good.

      Pretty easy to decide when you have the facts.

    36. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by pesho · · Score: 1

      First, read the TFA. Building infrastructure (new plants and pipelines) does not make much economic sense for regions producing oil or gas from shale. The reason is that the production from shale wells tends to drop down sharply, so the infrastructure is likely to become underutilized before it has payed for itself. Second, explain how shipping through a pipeline addresses the problem with volatile gases being present at higher amounts than they should be in the crude oil? Wouldn't this make the pipeline more likely to blow too? Besides volatile gases separating from the liquid phase in a pipeline opens a whole new can of worms related to hydraulic shock.

    37. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Of course the industry has looked at this carefully.

      No? I thought they threw darts at a map while blindfolded. As, apparently, does rossdee (243626).

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    38. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by zentec · · Score: 5, Interesting

      My experience is that anyone in favor of processing this sludge into energy has never even seen photos of the area around the Detroit Marathon refinery or the waterfront along the Detroit river where the processing by-product of coke-tar is stored. Yeah, they store that crap right on the shores of the headwaters of Lakes Erie and Ontario; the water supply for millions of people in two countries.

      It isn't about anti-oil, I don't disagree the world needs oil. I need oil. This is about a form of it that is just beyond nasty to obtain and process. No one wants the coke-tar, it is stored in huge uncovered piles around Detroit getting blown into neighborhoods on both sides of the river. The plan has been to sell that stuff to China, but so far no takers. Their "plan" to mitigate the dust is to spray with with water, and just where do you think the runoff flows? If they can't sell this waste in Detroit with quick convenient access to steel mills, cement and power plants, do you think Houston will have better luck?

      It is all fine and well to sit from my position in rural Michigan and say "hell yeah, turn that spigot on and gimme my $2 a gallon gasoline". But I can't; I've seen it and it is an ugly view into the future where we just don't care about larger swaths of land and the people that live there. I'm just done with the mentality of energy at any cost. If the BP oil disaster in the Gulf of Mexico doesn't affect your opinion, take a stroll and smell the coke-tar. This is a greedy grab of the last scraps of energy and the environment and people's health be damned in the process.

      Oil spills from pipeline problems happen, just ask the people in Grand Rapids Michigan who are still dealing with the cleanup in the Kalamazoo river from Enbridge Energy's pipeline break. This too is Canadian tar sand oil, making its safe transit through the United States for processing.

    39. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by McGruber · · Score: 1

      The Wall Street Journal just ran an article about why shipping oil by rail is more profitable than shipping by pipeline:

      In Dakota Oil Patch, Trains Trump Pipelines - Flexibility of Shifting Crude to Higher Priced Markets Strands Proposed Projects (March 3, 2014)

      Basically, shipping the oil by rail costs more, but using a train gives the oil producer the flexibility to ship to the refinery that will pay them them most for the oil. Shipping by pipeline only allows the producer to ship the oil to the refinery at the end of that pipeline.... and the oil producer has to commit to use the pipeline for a very long time.

      Apparently, Warren Buffet figured this out years ago because he bought the BNSF Railway back in 2009. A BNSF train is shown in the picture attached to the Bloomberg article.

      They've been trying to build one for years (Keystone XL) but have been stonewalled at every turn by Obama.

      The WSJ points out that the proposed Keystone pipeline runs north-south, while the oil producers want to ship their oil east-west because the demand for oil is greater on the coasts than in Texas.

    40. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So yeah, the Chinese aren't going to any of those things which means that you destroy the US economy and the Chinese burn the oil anyway in much dirtier and less efficient ways. Way to go. Score one more blow against common sense for the environmental green freaks.

    41. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by Kaenneth · · Score: 1

      Things working normally would never be 'news'.

    42. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by TubeSteak · · Score: 1

      Why send the oil all the way to the gulf, when the refineries there might have to shut down at times due to hurricanes (more likely due to global warming these days) and then ship it back north as refined product.

      What makes you think they want to ship it back north as a refined product?
      The point of getting oil to the gulf is that the refined byproducts can easily be put on a boat to China.

      Gas & Oil in the midwest is already cheaper than the national average, because they don't have any pipelines to move it somewhere with a higher profit margin.

      We don't need no stinking CA tar sand oil.

      Not only do the Chinese want it, they'll pay more for it than we will.
      This isn't about the domestic priorities of the USA, it's about multinational oil companies trying to figure out where their next few decades of profits will come from.

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    43. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Yeah, just another example of Free Market Capitalism (tm) at work once again, enhancing the quality of life for millions--except of course for the ones it kills, poisons, or causes to live under dictatorships friendly to US business interests. I guess we could put in place regulations about this sort of thing, but then we'd be "killing jobs" or "punishing the job creators" or some other claptrap like that.

      Oh, and that pipeline--you know, the environmental disaster that's also an assault on the property rights of thousands (thus being an offense to liberals and libertarians alike, strangely). Well, see, its route and in particular endpoint are placed to allow oil to be exported tax free OUT OF the United States. So we get the expense, the risk, and the inevitable environmental cleanups when it comes to pass that shortcuts were taken and (gasp!) the owners didn't know about it, and we don't even get the benefit of the oil. Unless, of course, we're willing to bid against foreign sources for oil that's sitting right here and which otherwise might have been too expensive to ship to them. Yet another massive corporate fraud of privatizing profits and socializing losses and risks supported by the ignorant who believe the propaganda they're fed and can't be bothered to go look into things.

    44. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by drewsup · · Score: 2

      i think Warren Buffet may argue against you, seeing how he owns most of the train oil cars, and is known to have Obama's ear.

    45. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      The reason more refineries haven't been built in the USA is because we already have enough. The ones that exist have had no problem keeping up with demand. It wouldn't surprise me if some existing refineries have been upgraded to higher capacity though.

    46. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      I would prefer the KXL pipeline doesn't get built but in the end I'm not sure it matters. This is a problem that needs to be tackled from the demand side. As long as there is strong enough demand the supply will be provided one way or another (until it runs out or gets to costly to use). If demand is reduced enough the KXL just becomes another albatross.

    47. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by dryeo · · Score: 1

      What makes you think that China can't use the same means as the oil companies to manipulate the government and people. They aren't stupid and must know that both the government and media are for sale and they have lots of dollars.
      All I can think of a defence is diversity and not depending on any powerful entity too much.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    48. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "producers are deliberately leaving too much propane in their product, making the oil riskier to transport by rail."

      They hope for an rail accident that will boost support for pipelines. It seem to be working in Canadia. The Enbridge pipeline project is now going forward without much oversight.

    49. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure how things happen in North America, but there would be no profit motive in the rest of the world. We buy crude based on a marker price + premium. If your crude is like WTI then its priced like WTI. If your crude is like WTI but with more worthless gas then it's priced like WTI - a certain fixed penalty.

      More importantly if your crude is sold and then doesn't meet the specs (it is analysed on the way into refineries) then most sane contracts are written to punish the seller.

      I don't understand why there's a profit motive here unless the suppliers already have a monopoly and can write contracts that are strangely one sided.

    50. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by ultranova · · Score: 1

      Sorry, but wind and solar won't get the oranges from the groves in Florida to markets in Maine.

      A solar-powered zeppelin might. Automate it, and it might even be economical; let drones hitch rides for a small fee, attaching and detaching (and charging) en-route, and it might be profitable enough to launch a new industry. And didn't Amazon plan to start delivering books by drones?

      The whole reason America (and the rest of the world) relies so heavily on trucking is that airplanes use a lot of fuel, while railroads require a lot of maintenance. There's a clear business opportunity for a mode of transport that is fuel-efficient (=cheap), reasonable fast and doesn't depend on infrastructure or land between the endpoints.

      And even if zeppelins don't work, the fact is that oil is getting more and more expensive, so if oranges depend on oil for transport, so will they. An economy that depends on an exhaustible resource for a vital function is doomed to collapse. A better power source must be found.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    51. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Please document how leaks, maintenance access, property rights, security and animals (blah, blah, blah) end up causing hundreds of people to be killed and entire city blocks to be vaporized. ....I'm waiting.

      Oh you can't you say but if we will just let EPA clowns inspect every tanker and steal millions of dollars in a sanctioned act of left-wing bureaucratic extortion, we will all at least feel better about it.

      I get it. Crony capitalism that at least pays off the rank and file lefties instead of just Tesla.

    52. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mean like the Keystone XL pipeline?

    53. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by rmdingler · · Score: 1

      With all due respect, though their plans might ultimately include this final destination, all of the greedy assholes in the World haven't made it to America yet

      --
      Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

      Ernest Hemingway

    54. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bakken well heads aren't necessarily near preexisting pipelines. And domestic production is out-stripping the capacity of preexisting pipelines.

    55. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by rmdingler · · Score: 0
      Best pickup line ever:

      Does this rag smell like chloroform?

      --
      Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

      Ernest Hemingway

    56. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by SpankiMonki · · Score: 2

      But it also lowers the API gravity measurement (think light versus heavy crude), possibly improving the value of the entire shipment.

      I think you have that backwards. Higher API gravity means lighter, sweeter crude which is more valuable than heavy crudes which have API gravity measurements less than 20.

      Perhaps you were thinking of "specific gravity" instead of "API gravity".

    57. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by rmdingler · · Score: 1
      Hmmmm.

      I keep using that word that doesn't mean what I think it means.

      --
      Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

      Ernest Hemingway

    58. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 0

      They've been trying to build one for years (Keystone XL) but have been stonewalled at every turn by Obama.

      Please, tell us about how the Keystone pipeline will be carrying North Dakota Sweet Crude. Tell us how that is an exact equivalent to the tar shale crude that the Keystone Pipeline.

      More to the point, give us the citations on how The President personally stopped the North Dakota sweet crude by personally not allowing the Keystone pipeline to be built.

      This is why no one pays attention to you asshats. Now go back to Fox News to get your daily dose of affirmation. They'll tell you what you know.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    59. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by Captain+Nitpick · · Score: 1

      It wouldn't surprise me if some existing refineries have been upgraded to higher capacity though.

      This happens.

      The recent big example was when Motiva completed the expansion of their Port Arthur refinery. They added 325,000 barrels/day of capacity. If that were built as its own refinery, it would have been the tenth largest in the US. Since it added to an existing refinery, it bumped the refinery up to the largest in the country.

      --
      But then again, I could be wrong.
    60. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Refineries are also movable, though this costs 10E+7 ~ 10E+10 dollars, and takes months, there's still probably an opportunity to move an undercapacity one to North Dakota.

      Then again, oil companies employ thousands of mathematicians, economists, and engineers, so it's likely they've considered this and the numbers just don't pan out.

    61. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Given that the maximum insolation is 1200W/m^2, and the best PV cells are 44.7% efficient (and crazy expensive), that gives you an overly optimistic 536W/m^2 to work with. Assuming you can make a zeppelin 200M long, and 40M in diameter would have a surface area of 39358m^2, but only 1/4 of this would be exposed to the sun at any time , and in fact we have to reduce it still further because the angle of incidence affects the efficiency of the cells. Giving you an overly optimistic estimate of 9000m^2 effective insolated area, gives you a working power plant of ~4.8MW, with a buoyancy of 3.893MN assuming Hydrogen as a displacement gas. I don't know what a realistic tare mass for a craft of that size would be, but this gives you a gross lift capacity of 397 metric tonnes.

      Assuming the PV cells are $1/watt (unrealistic for top efficiency cells), it would cost $4.8M for the cells alone.

      I don't think anyone wants a 30 tonne flammable hydrogen balloon floating over them. Helium is $15900 per tonne, and it would take 59.8 tonnes, with a gross lifting capacity of 368 tonnes, and costing $5.85M.

      A typical tractor-trailer unit can transport 40 tonnes, and costs a lot less than $10.65M (and that's just for the floatation gas and PV cells). When everything has been engineered to pass the FAA's muster, don't expect to get a zeppelin for less than $50M.

      You say railroads require a lot of maintenance, but so do roads, the difference being that trucking companies get to externalise the cost of road maintenance, so you pay for trucking's infrastructure whether you ship by rail or road.

    62. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by Reziac · · Score: 1

      This forgets that as a rule, the tracks came first, then the towns grew up around them. This is also frequently the case with refining operations.

      So now who is personally responsible??

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    63. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by carbonates · · Score: 1

      In the US oil typically sells at a marker price MINUS a differential. There are many different small oil markets in the US crude market. Few operators get WTI prices outside of Texas and OklahomaNote that Williston Basin (Bakken) is one of the lower prices. One reason these operators now prefer to use rail is that they are selling to West Coast and East Coast refineries like Seattle and New Jersey where they get much higher prices than the Midwest US. Here are crude oil prices for 3/07 in $/bbl. West Texas Intermediate 99.20 Central Montana 90.85 Northwest Montana Sour 83.25 Williston Basin Sweet 84.19 Williston Basin Sour 74.58 Wyoming General Sour 71.75 Wyoming Sweet (Powder Rv Bsn) 91.08 Colorado D-J Basin 86.30 Four Corners 97.74 Nebraska 87.58 Southeastern Colorado 89.50 Western Colorado 87.38 Kansas Sweet NW 90.75 Kansas Sweet SW 91.00 Operators in Louisiana and some parts of Texas manage to get Brent prices, which is what most of Europe's oil is based on as a marker crude. California has its own market, based largely on Alaska Crude, and all of the West Coast of the US is priced relative to Prudhoe Bay (Alaska). The issue is likely not "extra" profit, but more correcty extra cost. Propane and other light components like butane and pentane would have to be removed by a separator, and because there is a limited (mostly none) market for the lighter liquids in the Bakken area, they are forced to burn it. This is of course stupid, as it could be used to run equipment by those operators, but they are overwhelmed with gas production as a byproduct of the oil production and are flaring large quantities already. Of course, this flaring still happens all over the world and one reason that northern Russia is one of the brightest places in the night sky is that Russian oil production is notorious for flaring natural gas rather than using it (probably one reason the Arctic is seeing warming). At least in the Bakken there is now pressure on the industry to end the flaring, and that will force them to start saving this resource and might even make them a little money that they are now throwing away because of the lack of gas transport infrastructure. Believe it or not, the pressure to not flare is coming from a profit motive, that is the state and private landowners who see a resource being wasted that they are not earning royalties from. The best solution may be just to use better tank cars, since tank cars carrying 100% propane roll down the rails every day and they don't seem to have this problem.

    64. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by carbonates · · Score: 1

      "Obama can only stop the pipeline crossing the border from Canada. If they want to build it from ND to the Gulf refineries he couldn't do anything about it." Wrong! As soon as a pipeline crosses a state line it is regulated by the Federal government and will require approval from Federal regulators. FERC commission members are all appointed by the President. Obama has total control over this, subject only to Senate approval of the appointees.

    65. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      _ Any single rail accident would spill far less oil than a spill or break in the oil pipeline._ Are you sure about that? Remember, that we are not just talking about rail, but also tankers that will take the oil across the ocean to China. Then, of course, the Chinese will refine it, using God knows what kind of environmental safeguards. Once it is refined, it will be loaded back into a tanker or pumped through Chinese pipelines. Still think this is a better idea than a single pipeline to US regulated refineries?

      are you sure about your response? where is the evidence that pipeline spills are less then or equal to tanker spills? They're not.

      see what I did there...

    66. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      You mispelled "steal technologies"

      -now with irony-

    67. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They've been trying to build one for years (Keystone XL) but have been stonewalled at every turn by Obama.

      Similar to how Reagan won the Cold War. (If the absurdity of your statement is still lost on you, you've no hope.)

    68. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Yeah I understand the reasons behind all that (I'm in the industry) but what I don't understand is that the article is implying that they are putting the gas in with the crude discretely as a way to increase the volume of the crude for the same price.

      Why wouldn't this be reflected in the differential? Everywhere else in the world it is. A few Malaysian crudes are notorious for being off spec when they arrive to the point where some of them have been black listed by some Australian refineries. Sorry I won't narrow this down any further, my point is that if the product were somehow off spec when it arrived it should either be reflected in the international trading price (if bought through a broker) or the company supplying it would get fined (if bought directly under a contract which permitted it), i.e. there should be no profit motive to mixing propane in the tank car, at least not the way the article is describing it.

      They way you are describing a desire not to flare and instead send it off for separation and refining would be more like saying tank cars explode because the crude has more volatiles in it, and not tank cars explode because some greedy bastard is trying to scum more money.

    69. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by carbonates · · Score: 1

      I am saying the tank cars explode because the crude has more volatiles in it. That is the current hypothesis anyway. And I agree with you that the refinery probably penalizes them for higher natural gas liquids content. So despite what the article says this is probably not a devious plan to get more money by "watering down" the crude. It is a way of avoiding the hassle and expense of getting rid of the NGL in an area that has no infrastructure for that. That is the problem that needs to be solved, and perhaps they do need to use a higher class of tanker car, above a Class 3, which is unpressurized. That is probably the other issue is that 60% of the tank cars available are these Class 3 cars. So if the railroad can't bring higher rated cars, they may have decided to just call it Class 3 and hope for the best. That has proven to be unwise, after the explosion in Canada that wiped out a town, and a couple of other rail accidents.

    70. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It has taken longer than winning World War 2, longer than Lewis and Clark to walk the Louisiana Purchase, longer than putting a man in space and almost as long as it took to build the transcontinental railroad.

      and it is still being delayed !

    71. Re:why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles? by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      It doesn't smell like ether eitherrrrrrrr..... [crump]

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
  2. Every Rail Car Explosion by rmdingler · · Score: 1

    is an arrow in the quiver of the pipeline proponents.

    --
    Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

    Ernest Hemingway

    1. Re:Every Rail Car Explosion by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 3, Insightful

      is an arrow in the quiver of the pipeline proponents.

      Only if you assume that the opponents are influenced by logic.

    2. Re:Every Rail Car Explosion by rmdingler · · Score: 0
      Correct. The light crude being shipped from the Bakken that is the subject of this story Isn't even the crux of the opposition against the pipeline.

      It's the bitumen-rich Canadian oil sands product that is most often mentioned as objectionable. Apparently, there is a huge carbon sink associated with that deposit.

      --
      Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

      Ernest Hemingway

    3. Re:Every Rail Car Explosion by slackware+3.6 · · Score: 1
    4. Re:Every Rail Car Explosion by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      The EROEI is much lower for tar sands oil than other petroleum sources. It takes a lot of energy to liquify the tar sands and it has to be diluted or kept warm to pump via a pipeline.

    5. Re:Every Rail Car Explosion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Riiight. People that agree with you are logical and normal. People that disagree with you are crazy and illogical.

      The sad thing is that simplistic partisanship like this seems to work, as evidenced by how often it shows up in political ads.

  3. Rail car explosions probably cost more than the by oscrivellodds · · Score: 2

    oil companies make by fluffing the oil with propane. The insurers will catch on, raise their rates, and the problem will correct itself. For once the insurance company interests and those of society at large are aligned.

    1. Re:Rail car explosions probably cost more than the by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      so tell us again what world are you coming from? In this one the insurance companies interests are aligned with those of their CEOs which, because there are only few of, does not qualify as a society. I think the times of Lloyds when ship owners insured each other are long over here.

      BTW insurance is redistributing money by its design: insured people get some money from the insurance in case the insurance is triggered. But I see your point - you can further improve gains of insurance industry by making it legal not to pay for damages at all while making it illegal not to have insurance. I even think that is a good idea. It would make quite clear what this is all about instead of these little games in the dark. Well done!

    2. Re:Rail car explosions probably cost more than the by oscrivellodds · · Score: 4, Insightful

      " That's the way it usually works in a free market."

      And then you use health insurance as an example of how insurance and society's goals are in alignment? You gotta be kidding! The free market brought us to the awful state we were in before Obamacare made a poor attempt to fix it. The insurers were denying coverage to people who were most in need. Theoretically they can't do that any more, but we'll see- they have an army of lawyers working out all the loop-holes they can find and things will probably degenerate to something as bad or worse than it was before.

    3. Re:Rail car explosions probably cost more than the by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > The insurers were denying coverage to people who were most in need.

      Technically, that is the intended free market result. There is no financial sense (even across the whole society possibly) to keep people alive when that would cost more than you can ever get back from them.
      The critical difference is that we generally don't consider it morally acceptable to let people die because they are "not valuable enough" (and I think you can discuss whether that does in fact mean that society's goals and the insurer's are not aligned). However a oil company "dying" because nobody is willing to insure them is in contrast a perfectly acceptable, if not desirable, free-market outcome.

    4. Re:Rail car explosions probably cost more than the by DarkOx · · Score: 1

      The free market did no such thing. Government policies to limit total compensation created a perverse incentive for companies to start spending your salary for you, on things like health coverage. Which in turn created perverse incentives to minimize costs rather than offer an acuarily sound insurance product, turning what we call insurance into care management.

      The free market was doing just fine until the government stepped in and removed the freedom

      --
      Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    5. Re:Rail car explosions probably cost more than the by oscrivellodds · · Score: 1

      How is not delivering care to people who need it the "intended" result, and whose intention are we talking about?
      The whole purpose of health insurance is to deliver care where and when it is needed. If it weren't so there would be no purpose for health insurance at all.

      "There is no financial sense (even across the whole society possibly) to keep people alive when that would cost more than you can ever get back from them."

      And how would you or anyone else know what you're ever going to be able to "get back" from someone? You're saying that society is better off if we let all the sick and injured suffer and die. Unless of course they are rich enough to pay for their own care. So the rich, who can afford care, should get insurance because we know that some day they'll be able to 'pay back" the cost of their treatment, and the poor should have no care because we likewise know that they will never be able to pay back the cost of treating them. You've got a formula for a truly wonderful society there.

      I hope that health insurance covers treatment for your sociopathy. We'd all benefit if you could be cured. Who knows, you might some day even contribute enough to society to repay the cost of all that treatment. I'd be willing to take a chance on you.

    6. Re:Rail car explosions probably cost more than the by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      I don't understand why the problem hasn't corrected itself already. Oil is sold based on it's properties and in relation to a market price on the world market. I.e. this product may be lighter than West Texas Intermediate and therefore be priced as WTI + $x. But when it hits the refineries and is found full of propane then the value drops considerably the original well is fined for the difference in quality and future trading prices drop. Oil is after all fungible.

      There must be some very strange fixed contracts lacking any kind of penalties for this to even be a partially viable option.

    7. Re:Rail car explosions probably cost more than the by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So basically, the free market decided to go with bullshit again, by exploiting more loopholes, while the government neglected to be the tyrannical authority it needs to be to prevent that.

      It's just like George Zimmerman all over again!

    8. Re:Rail car explosions probably cost more than the by khallow · · Score: 1

      You're saying that society is better off if we let all the sick and injured suffer and die.

      Nobody said that. Also keep in mind that supposedly half of all health care costs in the US are in the last year of a person's life. That's more like health theater than health care at that point.

      I hope that health insurance covers treatment for your sociopathy. We'd all benefit if you could be cured. Who knows, you might some day even contribute enough to society to repay the cost of all that treatment. I'd be willing to take a chance on you.

      So who is the sociopath here? The person making a legitimate complaint about US health care or the person completely taking their words out of context and using it as an excuse to railroad a strawman?

    9. Re:Rail car explosions probably cost more than the by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also keep in mind that supposedly half of all health care costs in the US are in the last year of a person's life. That's more like health theater than health care at that point.

      Nah, it's still health care.

      Health care providers can make more money on the last year the same way ice cream vendors can make more money on a hot day. ObamaCare and all that socialism didn't create this phenomenon (they have other problems but this one isn't one of them). It's simply free markets working.

      There's a demand, so a market was created. Demand outstrips supply, so the price is high.

      Another way to look at it is that a fool and his money are soon parted. The free market found these dying people with money, so the invisible hand moved in to liberate their savings and put the money back into circulation. Sure, they could wait for the heirs to spend the inheritance later, but waiting is less efficient, and we know how markets hate inefficiency.

    10. Re:Rail car explosions probably cost more than the by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      How is not delivering care to people who need it the "intended" result, and whose intention are we talking about?

      You seem confused by "intended"; to be intended, something must intend it.

      The insurance companies would like to insure the healthy, because that's where the profits are. The sick can easily cost more than they'll ever pay in premiums. The free market in insurance would do exactly that. This is, from the strictly financial standpoint, the right thing to do.

      That's what the AC is claiming: that letting people die is profitable, disregarding all morality. If you agree with AC that this is not what society should be doing, then you should agree with him that the free market may not be the best solution here.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    11. Re:Rail car explosions probably cost more than the by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Thing is, I've had excellent employer-provided health insurance all my career (with the exception of the time I was laid off and was making money as a contractor). I had excellent care for my heart attack, and no financial problems whatsoever. While my current employer is trying to limit costs, that isn't at the cost of good and affordable care. Group insurance works well to spread the cost, and that's the main benefit of the ACA.

      The government's mandate to not kick the dying back out into the street was at least one thing that caused medical expenses to skyrocket. Encouraging employer-provided health care wasn't.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    12. Re:Rail car explosions probably cost more than the by stenvar · · Score: 1

      And then you use health insurance as an example of how insurance and society's goals are in alignment? You gotta be kidding! The free market brought us to the awful state we were in before

      There was no "free market" in health care before Obamacare. Obamacare simply changed from a highly regulated, corrupt system to a different highly regulated, corrupt system.

      The insurers were denying coverage to people who were most in need.

      If by "people in need" you mean "sick people without insurance", yes they did. The problem prior to Obamacare was that there was essentially no free market in insurance by which responsible people could prevent getting into that situation.

      Obamacare, on the other hand, has given up on the idea of "health insurance" altogether. What it really is is a hobbled socialized medicine system that shoves vast amounts of tax payer money in the hands of insurance companies, drug companies, and medical providers. It's even worse than what we had before.

      Either we need fully socialized medicine or we need a free market, not the succession of increasingly corrupt systems that our politicians have brought us. But, take it from someone who has actually lived under serveral different systems, between the two, the free market system is by far the better one.

    13. Re:Rail car explosions probably cost more than the by stenvar · · Score: 1

      Technically, that is the intended free market result. There is no financial sense (even across the whole society possibly) to keep people alive when that would cost more than you can ever get back from them.

      That's bullshit. In a free market, what "society" wants is not relevant. What is relevant is the initiative and responsibility you take for your own life. If you prepare and insure early on, you can get cheap health insurance and will be protected even if "society" can never get anything back from you. That's the whole point of insurance. On the other hand, if you choose not to get insured and squander your money on something else, that's your choice too and you need to live with the consequences.

      What you describe, namely a cost-benefit analysis of individual lives, is exactly what socialized medicine relies on in order to determine who gets care and who doesn't. It is the exact opposite of a free-market outcome.

    14. Re:Rail car explosions probably cost more than the by stenvar · · Score: 1

      Group insurance works well to spread the cost, and that's the main benefit of the ACA.

      That's not "insurance", it is group health management. And it only works as long as you're part of the group. And it only works because, in the long run, the government picks up the tab after you retire; but those funds are drying up as well.

      In different words, "group insurance" does not actually work. Like many other welfare programs, it is indirectly financed by borrowing and is not sustainable.

    15. Re:Rail car explosions probably cost more than the by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Group insurance works well, as it removes adverse selection (the phenomenon where only the sick buy health insurance). As long as everybody in the country is part of the group, there isn't the problem of losing one's insurance along with one's job.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    16. Re:Rail car explosions probably cost more than the by stenvar · · Score: 1

      Group insurance works well, as it removes adverse selection (the phenomenon where only the sick buy health insurance).

      Insurance is a transfer of a risk of a loss against a payment. Calling Obamacare "insurance" is a fraud. A concept of "adverse selection" simply does not exist with insurance; once you're sick, there is no risk to be transferred anymore.

      As long as everybody in the country is part of the group, there isn't the problem of losing one's insurance along with one's job.

      We don't have health insurance in this country. What we have is poorly regulated, vastly overpriced health maintenance.

  4. Volume not weight? by zerosomething · · Score: 1

    I have a hard time believing crude in tank cars is measured by volume and not weight. By the very nature of the components of crude, with things liken propane, hydrogen, kerosene, etc, weight would make much more sense.

    --
    It all starts at 0
    1. Re:Volume not weight? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you mean mass, not weight. Weight is a unit of force.

    2. Re:Volume not weight? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure, say they're measuring by weight. You're still replacing heavy oils with light ones that you'd otherwise be burning off.

    3. Re:Volume not weight? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yes, energy content is pretty much proportional to weight and it is trivial to measure weight when it is in cars

    4. Re:Volume not weight? by oscrivellodds · · Score: 1

      I think you mean weight, which is what scales register because here on Earth we have this unavoidable thing called gravity. You can easily convert the weight as measured by a scale, to mass if you really want to. I'll leave it as an exercise for you to do a web search to find the gravitational acceleration on Earth.

    5. Re:Volume not weight? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not sure dissolved gasses change the density much, it might have nearly the same density but still less heavy oil.

    6. Re:Volume not weight? by matfud · · Score: 1

      At atmospheric preasure they can increase the density by up to 0.1% (usually much less depending on the hydrocarbons in the mix) but they also have value to the refiners.

  5. Another reason they leave volatiles in the product by echucker · · Score: 1

    Saw a story yesterday that said the gas product is being refined to the minimum possible level to allow it to be exported for foreign sale. New mini-refineries are being built on the Gulf Coast for just this purpose.

  6. So, instead of protests *for* better regulation... by tp1024 · · Score: 0

    So, instead of protests *for* better regulation and better technical equipment, all we'll see are protests *against* oil.

    As usual, the power hungry activists will not attempt to solve the problem, but instead use the problem to gain more power for themselves. I have never seen any activist trying to solve the problem they are protesting. The protests are just their PR campaigns to get more political power. Saving people's lives? It's not about protesting against exploding tank cars, it's about protesting against oil.

    Unfortunately, solving the exploding oil-car problem would legitimize the oil production, so as any self-righteous activist can easily see, you cannot allow companies to actually do something against that. Not only would the publicity and media spectacle of exploding oil tank cars go away, the company that would actually solve the problem would be ... like ... legitimate! So, screw the tanks. Let the explode! We must protest against oil!

  7. Transport Tycoon Delux by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is that from Transport Tycoon Delux?

  8. Beta by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It seems I now can't avoid the beta. Clicking on slashdot classic at the bottom brings me back to the home page.

    1. Re:Beta by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can't control your cookies? Turn in your nerd card on your way out.

  9. Incomplete calculation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You're providing incomplete, one-sided calculations. So this is propaganda.

    1. Re:Incomplete calculation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The original summary was incomplete, one-sided propaganda.

    2. Re:Incomplete calculation by ArcherB · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You're providing incomplete, one-sided calculations. So this is propaganda.

      Speaking of incomplete, I notice your post has no calculations whatsoever. Don't just sit there and say, "You're wrong!" Tell me why I'm wrong and provide whatever it is you think I'm missing.

      --
      There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
    3. Re:Incomplete calculation by The+Grim+Reefer · · Score: 0

      You're providing incomplete, one-sided calculations. So this is propaganda.

      You mean the truth side? To add to that, all of these transfers from one mode of transportation to another will increase the likelihood of accidental spills. Plus a pipeline would be somewhat less prone to accidents.

      Here's some balance, just for you:

      The pipeline will kill all of the remaining pink unicorns left in the United States. Cause the sun to go supernova. Destabilize the Chinese economy to the point that thet will be forced to randomly nuke countries all over the world. And worst of all, be the sole catalyst for triggering the heat death of the universe.

      Happy now?

    4. Re:Incomplete calculation by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      The pipeline will kill all of the remaining pink unicorns left in the United States. Cause the sun to go supernova. Destabilize the Chinese economy to the point that thet will be forced to randomly nuke countries all over the world. And worst of all, be the sole catalyst for triggering the heat death of the universe.

      Wow, that sounds really bad. I understand why people oppose it! Dirty liberal hippies.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  10. Re: Wouldn't it make more sense... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The keystone xl won't lead to cheaper gas buddy. But good job on swallowing the oil industry spin

  11. Consider the source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Of this article. InsideClimateNews is known for covering one side of the story quite well, but only one side.

  12. Re:Another reason they leave volatiles in the prod by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Another problem maybe simply be they don't want to burn off the propane at the well site since the Canadian government wants to reduce green house emissions.

  13. Re:So, instead of protests *for* better regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    fuck off. It's up to the government to proactively demand that companies don't ship oil in ways they themselves know to be hazardous. They should sue them for deliberate endangerment, and then demand they use proper equipment to transport the oil. Too bad if that means new cars will have to be designed (good for business), and if it costs money, and thus raises the cost of petrol. This cost externalization bullshit has got to stop, yet pro-corporate (R) and (D) governments will do fuck all to protect the public and the environment unless they're forced to.

  14. Re:So, instead of protests *for* better regulation by Carewolf · · Score: 1

    So, instead of protests *for* better regulation and better technical equipment, all we'll see are protests *against* oil.

    Try reading the comments before commenting on the comments. There is not such thing here. The only ones being irrational here are you preemptively defensive oil shills. Please wait with being defensive only someone attacks your position.

  15. Re: why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles by dgatwood · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Exactly. The right answer is to fill the tank with a pressurized inert gas like nitrogen so that there's no O2 left for combustion, similar to what they're doing to the fuel tanks in modern jets.

    --

    Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

  16. I don't care about trains... by fostware · · Score: 3, Funny

    Screw trains. Tell us why American cars' petrol tanks explode when all four tyres leave the ground...

    Is it static, do you need one of those rubber strips hanging off every car? Should they be a requirement for police vehicles, especially?

    It must be true, I see it on TV *ALL* the time!!!

    --
    "We know what happens to people who stay in the middle of the road. They get run over." - Aneurin Bevan
  17. Re:So, instead of protests *for* better regulation by tp1024 · · Score: 0

    First: If I was an "oil shill" I'd know about it. I'm not.

    Second: If I said it *after* the protests start, then you'd say that what I said is worthless, because I said it after the fact.

    I'm not being defensive. It's just activists using circular reasoning and self-defeating arguments all the time.

  18. Re:So, instead of protests *for* better regulation by tp1024 · · Score: 1

    Also, I guess I'd be the first "oil shill" arguing for more governmental regulation. Don't you think so?

  19. But wait, there's more! (Interest groups vs. KXL) by dfenstrate · · Score: 2

    They've been trying to build one for years (Keystone XL) but have been stonewalled at every turn by Obama.

    Not just Obama, but the by anti-oil people. They think by blocking the pipeline, they will be reducing CO2 in our atmosphere.

    There's more though. Arab oil-producing companies have been found backing environmental groups, to fight the introduction of new supply into their markets, which would depress prices. Then there's the owners of the railroads, who would lose out if the pipe network was expanded. If I remember correctly, BSNF railway ships much of the recent inland oil development, and it's owned by Warren Buffet, a notable supporter of Obama. Buffet (again IIRC) has come out in support of the Keystone XL pipeline, but who knows what deals are going on behind closed doors?.

    --
    Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be the name of a store, not a government agency.
  20. But wait, there's more! (Interest groups vs KXL) by dfenstrate · · Score: 2

    They've been trying to build one for years (Keystone XL) but have been stonewalled at every turn by Obama.

    Not just Obama, but the by anti-oil people. They think by blocking the pipeline, they will be reducing CO2 in our atmosphere. The sad part is, they are actually INCREASING the amount of CO2 and other pollutants.

    Don't forget that OPEC countries have been found financing anti-Keystone XL 'environmental' groups as a means to keep competition out of their oil markets and keep prices up. Then there's the railway owners, who would lose out if a pipeline was built. Much of the inland oil development is shipped by BSNF, a Berkshire-Hathaway company. Buffet is an Obama supporter who has publicly supported Keystone XL, but who knows what deals are going on behind closed doors? (my apologies if this is a repeat post, the last one didn't seem to take.)

    --
    Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be the name of a store, not a government agency.
  21. Hate to disagree by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Too little propane, it's in the flammable limits, if it explodes. They should dilute the airhead with nitrogen to lower the limits. But this is supposing there is something creating a spark on the interior of the tank. Which should be grounded. I would be looking for firecrackers on the tracks, rocks on the tracks and other spark producers, or "crackers" off the tracks with a grudge.

  22. Shaken up like an aerosol can by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sure, you get the light sweet crude (sweet means it doesn't have sulphur or H2S --hydrogen sulphide gas-- in it). But the propane infused within the heavier oil shakes up like an aerosol can when its rumbling down the tracks. The old style tank cars were proven to be too thin on impact and would easily rupture. Derailment means spill. If you've ever seen a train derailment, you understand the phrase "Pretty as a Train Wreck", and it inevitably involved bent metal. Bent metal very often means spark. Spark will flash propane, and in a very short time, it means really really big barbecue. Several things can (and should) be done to prevent this: 1) Stronger rail cars that won't squash like a beer can at the first rollover 2) baffles that keeps the contents from becoming an aerosol 3) Proper separation of lighter and heavier hydrocarbons, so that ethane, methane, propane go in one car, butane, hexane, heptane goes in another, then octane, nonane, decane, and much heavier hydrocarbons in another car. I understand the well site isn't a fractional distillation tower, but keeping at least the gasses and liquids separated will add a lot to safety (and no, I don't consider "Liquified Petroleum Gas" or Propane under pressure to be a natural liquid, not at pressures where a tank would explode.

  23. Re:Another reason they leave volatiles in the prod by riverat1 · · Score: 1

    I think the article is more about the oil from the Bakken fields in North Dakota, USA than any Canadian production.

  24. Re:So, instead of protests *for* better regulation by riverat1 · · Score: 1

    A newer, safer tank car has been designed and is available but the railroads don't have any mandate to use it and are only slowly replacing the thousands of older models as they age out of the fleet.

  25. Thank Obama and Uncle Warren by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Uncle Warren Buffet started buying up railroad companies when Obama was elected. Then he convinced Obama to block legislation on permitting the Keystone XL pipeline (never mind there is one along the Canada-US west coast that does exactly the same thing). Obama went a step further by making blocking KXL a pillar of his "Presidency." "Thank You!" uncle Warren said. Now uncle's railroad stock is sky high and will go higher with every rail "boom" disaster.

    When gasoline hits $6 a gallon, french kiss Obama ass and like it.

    Ha ha

  26. No need for regulation by dacullen · · Score: 1

    Just trust the free market to correct this bad practice. You know, a 100 million dollar fine for a practice that save them a billion. Should work perfectly

  27. Re: why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Things like "fluffing" up your crude with natural gas to get a better price is just the market operating free from government interference. I thought this was supposed to be a good thing, right?

  28. Re:But wait, there's more! (Interest groups vs. KX by ultranova · · Score: 2

    Arab oil-producing companies have been found backing environmental groups, to fight the introduction of new supply into their markets, which would depress prices.

    Of course, the actual effect of this is to ensure North America gets to keep its reserves until later, when both the need and price will be even higher. At the same time, higher oil prices encourage investment into alternative means of energy, possibly allowing the entire supply to be exported at that time - and thus used as a geopolitical bargaining chip.

    It's best to swallow the pill of peak oil while there's still reserves to use in an emergency.

    --

    Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

  29. THREE environmental studies by liberals say yes by raymorris · · Score: 1

    The Obama administration recently completed the THIRD environmental impact study of the pipeline. Like the first two, it concluded that piping oil is better for the environment than what's happening now - rail cars crashing, leaking , occasionally exploding , while burning tons of diesel to power the trains.

    1. Re:THREE environmental studies by liberals say yes by kyrsjo · · Score: 1

      Why not electrify the main rail routes, like most non 3rd world country did 50 years ago? That would also not only benefit the oil trains.

  30. and new refineries aren't allowed, only half billi by raymorris · · Score: 0

    Also, no matter what makes sense, new refineries aren't allowed. Only half-billion dollar solar boondoggles are allowed. Obama's campaign contributors have to end up with the money.

  31. That project got the big fat VETO. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It was known as Keystone. The Brakken oil play has no nearby pipeline or access to the existing line. One of the issues Keystone was to address was this lack. As I understand it the only option for moving oil from the Brakken play is rail at the present time.

    I think the issue of "fluffed" crude would have impacted a pipeline anyway and would have presented even uglier issues if it exploded. The simpler solution would be to require oil loaded to go through a process like an ultrasonic vibration system that would force the gas out prior to being loaded. It would add a layer of cost, but would reduce the fires and prevent theft by the producers. I am fairly sure that all trade regulations would define selling a volume of material fluffed with a less expensive material as theft despite this product being mixed naturally. Well without a clearly written caution to the customer that the crude is adulterated with NG. If such a caution were written the buyer is responsible for all explosions and resultant damage as they willingly take delivery of a product in a form hazardous to transport.

  32. Re: why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Not just President Obama, a large percentage of the population actively oppose it. Please troll elsewhere.

  33. Must live in a small country. 2,000 Km, 1 train by raymorris · · Score: 1

    Let me guess, you live in a densely populated city, in a small country. (Where small means smaller than a US state, such as Texas.) Electric makes sense when you have many trains on relatively short tracks, so that a train passes every few minutes. US commuter systems like New York's subway benefit from being electric.

    North Dakota is over 2,000 kilometers from the destination, the refineries south of Houston. Between the two locations, you'll find Dallas and a bunch of cattle. Not much else, just cattle and open plains for 2,000 Km. With nothing out there, there are no commuters, so the train goes by once per day or so. Building out thousands of kilometers of third rail for one train to use each day would be really, really silly.

    Besides, it wouldn't be allowed because a green-eyed, three-toe New Mexico mosquito lizard might electrocute himself.

    1. Re:Must live in a small country. 2,000 Km, 1 train by kyrsjo · · Score: 1

      I come from a relatively small country population-vise, but not so small distance-vise - it's about 1700 km end-to-end on a great circle, although the part which is built out with a network of electrified rail is only about 700 km end-to-end. So the electrified train network spans (as in the shortest distance between the two furthest apart points) the about the same distance as Texas, measured east-west. Not all of this is heavily trafficked (although most places see much traffic than one train/day, both goods and people - when you build the infrastructure, it tends to get used), and it's a quite mountainous landscape so it's much harder to build tracks than on open plains with dessert climate. This network is of course linked to similar networks in neighboring countries (which again link up with the rest of the eurasian rail network), so quite a bit of goods get moved this way, also long distances. Trade unions and agreements for free movement of people is in place, so crossing the border is about as much hassle as crossing a state border in the US.

      And no, I don't mean a third rail - this is what you generally use for subways, not trains where the standard is to lift the electric lines above ground, connecting to it with a pantograph http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P...

      Further, you'll find tons of non-electric trains in very urban settings in the US - take the Caltrain for example, which is serving the Bay Area in CA - no electrification, level crossings in the middle of residential areas, and painfully slow - in a densely populated and quite wealthy area, where road transport is already at or above capacity during rush hours and no good alternatives for building more hi-capacity roads. Why is it so? Why not modernize at least these lines?

      Anyway, the main point is that to avoid "burning tons of diesel to power the trains", one way to solve that is to power the trains electrically, which also has the bonus of making it easier to move other types of goods.

  34. Oil by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    gosgog:

    All this commenttry from you IT idiots. The Oil & Pipeline companies employ some of the finest engineers in the world and for the most part HATE to LOSE product.
    Unfortunately some of the contractors and some of the U.S. Gov't people theoretically in charge of enforcing Environment are about as stupid as the brains that produce the belief that when you blow yourself up there's a God with 72 Virgins on hand to make you Happy. Case in Point, at a Gov't site being built for storage of
    U.S.strategic Oil storage, a major Driling site fire started...call going out to "Boots & Coots (OIL fire fighting Co.), interrupted by Fed Gov't employee..."Wait, we have to get three Bids...before authorization! DUMB yeah! Major reason for being a Gov't employee..."Very difficult to Fire one, no matter how STUPID!"

  35. Re: why carry crude to in tanks on moving vehicles by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well, I know how to get it done. Increase the rate of tanker cars blowing up.