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Kickstarted Veronica Mars Promised Digital Download; Pirate Bay Delivers
ConfusedVorlon writes with word that Warner Bros backed out on their promise of digital downloads for backers of the Veronica Mars film "Backers were promised 'You will receive a digital version of the movie within a few days of the movie's theatrical debut.' Warner Bros are providing a non-downloadable ultra-violet coupon (although Veronica Mars is available for download through other stores). The download is already available on the Pirate Bay. The download is even available on commercial stores. The users have already passed over their $35+. But rather than meet the demand for a DRM-free download, Warner Bros would prefer to return the original pledge to backers who complain.
What does this tell us about how movie studios view the world? There can't be a better indication of willingness to pay than 'they have already paid' — are these the pirates WB fears?"
What does this tell us about how movie studios view the world? There can't be a better indication of willingness to pay than 'they have already paid' — are these the pirates WB fears?"
Heh, it's not even "customers" they're denying a download to - if you follow the nomenclature of Kickstarter, then it's *investors*! Evidence, if you needed it, that you're not really an investor when you get involved in Kickstarter, you're just paying a premium to pre-order something, and praying you won't get screwed over.
-"I still believe in revolution; I just don't capitalize it anymore." - srini!
So, according to movie industry math, Warner Bros ought to pay every backer $350?
Warner Bros is just big enough to not even have to pretend like they give a tiny shit about you.
UltraViolet (UV) is a free, cloud-based, digital rights library that allows users of digital home entertainment content to stream and download purchased content to multiple platforms and devices.
according to the link UltraViolet provides downloads. The issue was that UltraViolet is buggy. It provides downloads in theory. I think there was some region restriction also with the service. That didn't work with KickStarters international reach.
The Ultraviolet version is downloadable via the Flixster client, which plays back from your local machine. Backers were never promised a DRM-free download. Personally, I'll take a DRM download with no weird distracting artifacts over a watermarked DRM-free one. That said, DRM is evil and terrible and always sucks. However, it's not true that the Veronica Mars people broke their promises. That's a lie.
Cloudiot: A person who does not see offsite storage as a way to lose control over access to his or her own data.
the same folks who cheat their producers and stars day in and day out for over a hundred years?
my friends, I don't always sell a block of Bitcoin stock, but when I do, it's from a moving car...
if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
The Kickstarter used the phrase 'Digital Version' in some places and 'Digital Download' in others. I see no mention of DRM-free, so all they have to do is hand out Amazon credit to those who complain about the streaming solution. But no, they'd rather pay out a bunch of money than give people something that matches what they paid for. I'm thinking everyone who has a piece of this (the production company, any stars that get a piece of the action) ought to probably demand an accounting to make sure Hollywood didn't charge them for the returned cash...
A thousand pounds of wood moving at 300 feet per minute. Don't get in the way.
What does this tell us about how movie studios view the world?
That they're greedy bastards who will screw over absolutely everyone if they can make a quick buck. But then, we already knew that.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
tl; dr; stupid, and off topic.
People don't want that bullshit UltraViolet cloud-based streaming service the studios seem to think will succeed if they keep pushing it and don't provide any other options - people want DRM-free files in a standard/popular format that can be played on any device in whatever video player they desire, without said files being held hostage by the studio.
It seems that Hollywood is incapable of selling things in a format that people want. I know why of course - they want control. Honestly I'd prefer getting my movies legit if I knew I could get something at least equivalent to what I can get on The Pirate Bay (so at least 720p, in a DRM-free format, in a format/container that at least can be played on most video players instead of some proprietary one that is Windows only for example).
Maybe I'm asking too much... no, wait, like hell I'm not. If cracker groups can release high-quality 1080p MKVs of movies with subtitles, chapter markers and audio-commentaries, so can the paid folks at the studios. But they don't, because for whatever reason they'd rather keep the status quo (which doesn't make much sense in our connected world anymore) than risk a bit less control for more income. Clearly I'm too ideological for this world.
The most shocking part is that people even bother with the legit methods at all anymore.
Probably the few intelligent thing I've ever heard Bill Oriely say was in regards to piracy. It went something like "The music and movie industries have spent the last 30 years teaching our children the worst behavior imaginable. They've glorified violence, prostitution, and general hooliganry... and now they're surprised their customers aren't above pirating a song?"
Artists hate the industry, the industries partners hate the industry, the industries customers hate the industry. Christians hate it, Liberals hate it, everyone on earth hates it. How long, exactly, do they expect to stay in business being held in such low regard as to be slightly better than Cigarette and Oil companies?
and Warner Brothers have used them as an interest free and risk free loan.
took the money to finish the show and nowI refunding it? Is there's interest on this money since they didn't deliver the original deal? Im sure anyone else who lent them the money for the rest of the project probably got extra income as percentage of thir loan.
They are refunding $10 (their cost of the UV download, their words, not mine) or you can go buy it on Amazon, iTunes, whatever and they will cover the cost (or they were saying that last I heard). The money is coming from the marketing budget that WB provided, not the production budget that the Kickstarter money went to.
I browse on +1 so AC's need not respond, I won't see it.
That sure sounds like receiving a "digital version" of the film to me.
Correct. The studio just wasn't clear ahead of time which digit they planned to provide.
Example; if someone said a watermelon is blue on the inside, but turns red when you cut it open, how could you prove them wrong? How could they prove they're right?
You couldn't and they can't. There is no method available to confirm or disprove what was said about the watermelon.
WHY does it turn red when you cut it open? Because it's exposed to oxygen in the air? Then cut one open in a vacuum. Or in an oxygen-free atmosphere. or maybe it turns red because of an interaction with the steel of the knife. So use a plastic knife. And so on. These are all testable.
Same with evolution. Point out a fossil that doesn't fit, and win a prize. except you can't, so you don't.
This was a studio film all along- the Kickstarter purposely misrepresented the situation. The Kickstarter made promises those running the Kickstarter could NEVER deliver.
WB got suckers to use their money, with ZERO profit sharing, to finance a studio picture- a new low even for Hollywood. To make matters worse, despite the minor value of this movie to WB, WB wasn't even prepared to hide this fact by giving the suckers that paid 35 dollars a break, and letting them download a proper digital copy to own. If that had been too much of an 'issue', WB could easily have created a few thousand DVD's to send out instead, so the $35 dollar team could have made their own digital 'rips'.
It gets WORSE. The 'geniuses' at WB seriously under-estimated demand for the film in the cinema, and released the film (in the USA) to 30%-50% of the optimal number of screens. The excellent per screen average of the way too small release is proof of this.
So, the film gets made, gets good reviews and people want to see it. But the suits at Warner Brothers snatch defeat from the jaws of victory by focusing on all the mean, petty hurt they can pile of the original 35 dollar suckers. And NO, giving these people their money back counts for nothing. WB behaviour over this whole affair has been despicable, and shame on the people who made the film for NOT honestly admitting from the start that it was a traditional studio production.
You're an idiot. It was made clear on the the very first day that Warner Brothers was involved. Right there on the front page of the Kickstater, on day one. Warner agreed to pay for distribution and promotion if Rob Thomas could help fund the production budget and show fan interest in the film, and that is exactly what happened. Did WB screw up by forcing it through Flixster (guess who owns Flixster, btw), Yes, but they never lied about any aspect of the Kickstarter project.
As for the number of screens, that's all they could get. Given the prospects for the film they are lucky that AMC agreed to screen what is a limited release film across their national footprint, and on the same day it would go live the on UV, iTunes, Amazon, and PPV.
I browse on +1 so AC's need not respond, I won't see it.
> Same with evolution. Point out a fossil that doesn't fit, and win a prize. except you can't, so you don't.
I always say to people that don't believe in Evolution that if they can collect the data, then make it reproducible and can write a good paper explaining it all, then they can win a Noble Prize and completely and utterly change a major branch of science. Their name will go down in history one of greatest minds ever in the entire length of mankind.
For some reason, none of these people ever take me up on my offer.
Linux O Muerte!
The Veronica Mars kickstarter promised "You will receive a digital version of the movie within a few days of the movieâ(TM)s theatrical debut..."
A digital version. Last time I checked, while most people may dislike UltraViolet, it is a digital version.
Now, I understand the servers got hammered and there were issues with the process and Warner Brothers offered a refund so people could buy the movie from a competing digital store but they fulfilled their promise or made efforts to rectify the situation when their servers failed under the load.
Also, they made no promise of DRM free. Doing a search of the Veronica Mars Kickstarter page, I find exactly zero mentions of DRM so why you would think they owe you a DRM free movie is beyond me.
You're clearly itching to pick a fight and begging to justify torrenting the movie rather than paying for it but, sorry, you haven't cited so much as one valid complaint. They offered a digital version of the movie and they delivered a digital version of the movie. Users that encountered issues were offered a refund so they could obtain the movie elsewhere since their servers weren't up to the task rather than WB just pocketing the money and saying "well, try again another time".
I see absolutely nothing nefarious here.
Much geek rage about nothing.
I mean a store selling the Veronica Mars movie, of course. That's what this is about. The headline quotes the article saying that other stores are offering a download in a context that's clearly designed to imply that while others are getting a DRM-free copy, backers are not. This is not true. This post is so subversive to this very successful Kickstarter project, it smells to me like it comes from the same people who told Rob Thomas "No" to backing his film in the first place. Those people would love to see the project fail, and I'm sure they love any ill will towards the project that they can generate.
Cloudiot: A person who does not see offsite storage as a way to lose control over access to his or her own data.
To me it seems quite clear that WB acted in extremely bad faith with malice aforethought. It is not so clear that a good lawyer couldn't argue against an underfunded lawyer that they technically met their promise. But that doesn't mean that it's not quite resaonable to bad-mouth them, and let everyone else know how you feel about them.
FWIW, I have refused to purchase or support friends purchasing over paying to view movies, or other merchandise from any MPAA or RIAA member company for over a decade, so I am not an unbiased observer. My evaluation of their behavior may be subject to confirmation bias. But I feel this is their current implementation of "Never give a sucker an even break.".
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
To them it probably sounds like asking a socialist party from Europe to write an article that gets applauded by Fox News. I suffered through enough Bible classes to find the appropriate quote (from parable of the sower):
The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?" He replied, "Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: "'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'
In their view of the world we've closed our hearts and minds to God and are blind and deaf to the truth, so in their eyes one scientist agreeing with another scientist on evolution is just the blind leading the deaf. You probably think the Nobel prize or scientific consensus means something to them, but it doesn't. To them a legion of blind men are still wrong and need to open their eyes, we're all wrong and the failure lies on our end because we can't see it not theirs. To get back to the parable:
"Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown."
They're the ones trying to sow the seeds, we're the barren ground. They're looking for the "good soil", the rest of us well they don't really give up on fertilizing it (or as I'd call it, spreading their shit) but well not everybody's cut out for heaven and they as the righteous ones are in and the unworthy of us are out. Unless we accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior of course, then all is forgiven.
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
Example; if someone said a watermelon is blue on the inside, but turns red when you cut it open, how could you prove them wrong? How could they prove they're right?
You couldn't and they can't. There is no method available to confirm or disprove what was said about the watermelon.
WHY does it turn red when you cut it open? Because it's exposed to oxygen in the air? Then cut one open in a vacuum. Or in an oxygen-free atmosphere. or maybe it turns red because of an interaction with the steel of the knife. So use a plastic knife. And so on. These are all testable.
Same with evolution. Point out a fossil that doesn't fit, and win a prize. except you can't, so you don't.
You can spend a lifetime making up WHYs and figuring out ways to prove or disprove them. That does not even come close to answering the fundamental question about the color of the watermelon.
The only solution to this problem is to have faith and live your life according to what the inside color of the watermelon means to you. You can even believe that there is no watermelon - that's a type of faith as well.
Now can we go back to being insulted that big companies found a way to minize risk in their commercial ventures by using a bait & switch approach so fans are the ones taking the risk?
lucm, indeed.
Agreed. They're rules-lawyering the wording. By the way, I backed "The Gamers 3: Hands of Fate" which promised a DRM-free HD download, and delivered.
DRM-free works for GOG just fine, why not also for movies?
Because this...
The big ones will follow as they see that the concept is working.
you're describing anarchy and not capitalism. capitalism expects contracts to be upheld.. without that it doesn't really work as capitalism but as whoever has the most power.
in this case, it should be looked like that they sold a product and didn't deliver. merely returning the money at this point is not enough because they had the capital to work with all this time, as such they should return the capital + reasonable interest.
or if you look from consumer rights side of things they should be thrown into jail for trying to sidestep consumer protection rules by pretending that they weren't selling a product but providing and "investment opportunity" or something akin to charity but with promised product delivery.. in all reality they were a fucking big company making a product and taking pre-orders for said product and then delivering something different.
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
Except they can't buy a DRM-free copy of the movie from anywhere for any amount of money.
So, WB was using the backers' money and let them assume the risk if the project fails. But if the project makes a profit WB gets it and not the backers. And you're saying the backers knew and agreed to assume all the risk and take none of the profit right from the start . Somehow, I don't think AC is the idiot here.
I'm not the only one who thinks the fans were ripped off.
Worst part is, you guys aren't even getting the promised rewards, i.e. the digital download.
It's capitalism.
That's crap. This isn't capitalism, it's insanity.
Under what theory of capitalism would you have a product that people had *ALREADY* paid for and can trivially deliver but decide to give back the money and not deliver because of no rational fathomable reason?
SJW n. One who posts facts.
in this case, it should be looked like that they sold a product and didn't deliver. merely returning the money at this point is not enough because they had the capital to work with all this time, as such they should return the capital + reasonable interest.
In general I agree with you on this. I don't like seeing situations where a company doesn't deal honestly with people and gets away with it. Unfortunately looking at the kickstarter FAQ it appears that their terms of service do allow them to get away with just refunding the money. For your typical kickstarter where people made a good faith effort to supply what was promised I can see that for something like this I am less sure that is appropriate.
I wonder if it has occurred to them how that could be exploited. Say I come up with a really good sounding idea and get people on kickstarter to give me a bunch of money for it. Some of these things have raised multiple millions on there. For the sake of example say I convince people to give me enough that I end up with $1 million after kickstarter and Amazon get their fees. I turn around and invest that in an aggressive stock fund and get 10% return. My guess is you could string people along for several years putting out bogus updates. So after say three years you have $1,331,000 less taxes etc. Then you come back give a sob story about how the project has fallen apart and you just can't complete it. Then following these terms you send all your backers an offer to refund their money and that they should just contact you if they want a refund. My guess is half the people won't even ask for their money back. So lets say 50% of the total amount pledged ends up being refunded. So you promptly pay out $500,000 while apologizing profusely for the problems etc. Since the amounts per individual are so small most people aren't going to really investigate what went on in any detail. In that example you refund everyone who asks and still walk away with $831,000 less taxes. Heck even if everyone demands a refund you'd end up with something around $300,000 less taxes.
there is no watermelon
What version of The Matrix did you watch, where you had to choose between a red watermelon or a blue one?
" Ladies and gentleman, that greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed is right, greed works. Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit..."
Gordon Gekko