Slashdot Mirror
Lit Motors, Danny Kim, and Changing How Americans Drive
Nerval's Lobster writes "In early March, Lit Motors founder Danny Kim hit the road to meet investors. The Portland native needed to keep the momentum growing for his small firm, which builds the two-wheeled C-1. His modest lab, located in San Francisco's SoMa neighborhood, could accommodate another 12 employees—but he needed the money to fund them, and to build a manufacturing facility that could turn his prototype ideas into a reality. Like Elon Musk and other manufacturing savants, Kim is someone who enjoys the challenge of building things—whether it's eyeglasses, chairs, or motor vehicles from scratch. He's spent the past five years re-thinking modern transportation, and using those insights to design prototypes of two-wheeled, motor-driven vehicles that can self-balance with a dancer's grace, thanks to an integrated software platform and a patented gyroscopic system. In a wide-ranging conversation with Slashdot, Kim discussed his plans for manufacturing the C-1, as well as the challenges in convincing consumers to try out a new kind of vehicle. "Seventy-two percent of commuters drive alone, so it just made sense to cut the car in half," he said, explaining the decision to go with two wheels instead of four. 'You have to think about this two-wheeled car as a robot because of its stability. It purely uses our AI/stability algorithm so it can balance and you don't have to. We had to develop our own firmware for our own dynamic system. It is code heavy.'"
Just because people usually ride alone doesn't mean that they always ride alone. These one person vehicles become useless if you ever have passengers. And they're not cheap enough to justify having a second one just lying around if you ever need a passenger.
I wish that phrase didn't set off my "marketing bullshit" alarms(as is clearly appropriate in this case) because a culture of long-distance driving commutes is leading to serious long-term problems with respect to suburban sprawl and blight. Retreating residential neighborhoods a little further down the interstate every time an area falls into disrepair(and no, it's not just white flight) is causing huge swaths of places where no one will ever want to live.
his home state would be cheaper to work in, cheaper to build in, and has money.
But hay, go to San Fran, becasue there sin't any competition for money there...
These will be way too easy to tip into canals. It's like a Smart only even less heavy and more weird-looking.
24K for an enclosed motorscooter with a gryoscope?
Better have a cupholder for your PBR..
Haven't we heard that before? About another self-balancing 2-wheel vehicle?
I browse on +1 so AC's need not respond, I won't see it.
Because that's what American drivers need - politeness and patience. Basically, drop the ME ME ME! and add in some consideration of others.
And for some damn reason, Prius drivers need it the most. And I'm not kidding - I ride my bicycles about 10,000 miles a year, and damn if Prius drivers aren't the most cluelessly aggressive on a per-Prius basis. Yeah, I run into more BMW and Passat jackasses, but that's because there are more BMWs and Passats out there.
Why Passats? I think it's because they're basically sold as a poor-boy's BMW. Take a marketing model aimed at pricks, only they're now pissed off because they can't afford the real thing.
As a motorcyclist (including daily commuting), an enclosed motorcycle doesn't seem at all absurd to me. It addresses the main disadvantages that prevent most people from riding motorcycles - higher safety (if it is adequately constructed, obviously) and protection from the elements.
Safety? Some drunk with a pickup truck or some soccer mom texting with a SUV would put the driver of this vehicle into the hospital, if not in the morgue.
This is something that would be useful for places like Paris, London, or other cities where vehicles are small and nothing goes over 60km/hr on the streets. However, in the US, this is as dangerous as a motorcycle, but without the agility of a bike.
If it was cheap & kept up its supposed features (200 miles, crash rated, etc) it could definitely become a popular commuter vehicle. Unfortunately it looks like this thing will cost the same as a good full sized car/SUV ($24,000 per the website). You're not going to be able to get people to give up 4 door vehicles with cargo space for an enclosed electric motorcycle that you can maybe sandwich two people or one person and a few grocery bags when they cost basically the same.
...for our own dynamic system. It is code heavy." Maybe I've been working around software too long, but the more code needed to run a single function generally equates to more software defects. In a balancing and stability control system, I'd hate to be the one to find it.
What specific value is there in using two wheels and a "code heavy" stability algorithm instead of using more vehicles. For example, Elio motors is aiming for 84mpg with a three wheel car that uses "no special technology" and is expected to cost $6800.
I prefer a vehicle that doesn't fall over when there is a code failure or the battery dies.
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
The key problem with such an elegant vehicle is that it fails the "Gives better than it got" crash test. SUVs and pickup trucks are popular because people perceive that they are driving a tank and will fare better against the various pop-cans out there. Quite simply if you are in a BMW X5 and have a head on with a prius then you may very well limp away with the prius crew ending up in body bags. With this perception then a vehicle like this will not get much of an audience beyond a few hipsters.
But at some point when driverless cars dominate (and ideally own) the roads then you could potentially safely drive a car made from non-tempered glass. Once this has sunk into car culture then people will wisely conclude that you want to commute (and park) in the least amount of vehicle required to keep you comfortable and get you to your destination in haste.
But while the roads are still filled with morons behind the wheels of multi-tonne homicide factories then any vehicle of this nature will be regarded by the vast majority as DIY coffins.
I've watched a bunch of videos online of this vehicle. I've seen it go in a straight line. Is there any video of it driving around a curve while traveling at a decent speed?
Motorcycles lean into a turn, lowering their center of gravity and maximizing traction/grip with the road. My guess (in the absence of seeing evidence otherwise) is that they've programmed this vehicle to stay bolt upright and just slide around a lot. Maybe it would be popular with drifters in Tokyo.
It is an absolute, unmitigated mistake to attempt to market this thing in the US. To get it to work, you'd need to convince each state's DMV to not classify it as a motorcycle, the license for which is more difficult and expensive to get, and testing for which would be unnecessarily dangerous for the C-1's target market. Unfortunately, this is an absolute impossibility; even if you can break through a bureaucracy's natural tendency towards collecting more fees by having more rules to enforce, the venture will be lobbied to death by dealerships that don't want to try to sell the thing. It's going to look like what's happening to Tesla, only much, much easier for the douchebags.
I am reminded of the scene from the movie Brazil, where the protagonist is drving this tiny little one-person vehicle on the freeway, surrounded by huge trucks on all sides.
Proverbs 21:19
And here I thought the ghetto was the only place you'd get cinder block kickstands for your car.
...car manufacturers go from success to success with bigger and bigger SUVs.
The easiest way to change how they drive is to change the structure of the roads. The amount of fuel and tarmac America wastes by having stop junctions, and light controlled intersections everywhere is enormous.
Like the Segway right? Which was also supposed to be a major revolution of transportation. And what happened? Exactly.
Indeed. I recently spotted the Elio, which seems to have real potential if they can pull it off. A spacious three-wheeler with automotive safety features, a large back seat, 84mpg, a top speed over 100mph, and a price tag well under the cheapest mainstream cars. Doesn't look nearly as fun to drive as a C1 or Carver, but better than a normal car, and at a price point that could give it a place as something other than an expensive toy. Definitely gonna take a test drive at least, should it make it to market.
http://www.eliomotors.com/
http://fox40.com/2013/09/17/be...
--- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
I hear they have tasty Maine lobsters. Or are you talking about the Portland near Mount Hood and the Columbia river?
"Seventy-two percent of commuters drive alone, so it just made sense to cut the car in half," he said, explaining the decision to go with two wheels instead of four.
Spoken like a true nerd. I'm sure it makes sense to cut the car in half, until you realize that Americans are sociopathic morons who refuse to let that happen, until the price of gasoline rises so much that they'll be forced to seek out smaller vehicles.
Americans would be driving SUVs twice the size by now if the price of gasoline didn't rise to over $3/gal to put a stop to that nonsense.
Nerds: Not Even Once
a culture of long-distance driving commutes is leading to serious long-term problems with respect to suburban sprawl and blight. Retreating residential neighborhoods a little further down the interstate every time an area falls into disrepair
People don't move "a little further down the interstate" because of disrepair - they usually do so because of crowding and cost.
There are lots of cities that have healthy city cores AND healthy suburbs that extend very far out.
Yes most cities also have a "bad" area but that area is usually not core to the city, it's off to the side of the core and is avoided both by moving to the center, and the suburbs. And to me it seems only reasonable that people would want to use the ability a car gives them to live more remotely, to chose where on the scale of urban->suburban makes them most comfortable. Eliminating the car just means a lot of people suddenly don't have suburban as an option that would otherwise be much happier there, no matter how nice the city core was.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Perhaps. But the more folks who start out on 2 wheels, the more observant they are of the surrounding area and of motorcyclists. So bring it on. The more, the better.
[John]
Shit better not happen!
It definitely looks nice, but I think they went too far. Protection from the elements and increased efficiency due to reduced air drag are wonderful things we should have equipped street bikes with long time ago. However, it's too heavy (360kg) and too expensive ($24,000), meaning it's more akin to a thin smart car than to a bubble bike. I'd bet a gas-powered 100kg moped can beat the C-1's city commute energy efficiency at a $1,500 price point, especially if we bring manufacturing into the equation. When we do that, the moped can end up being better for the environment, too.
Lit has to convince drivers (not bikers) that the C1 is worth the premium over a bike. But you could pour million$ into ads to promote that difference, or get a dozen road test reviews in the major car/bike mags, and *still* not get the word out.
OR... You could feature the C1 in a movie, maybe sci fi or better yet, a movie about Makers. Those visuals would go a long way, especially footage of the C1 swooping through some esses -- "Where no bike has gone before".
Maybe the C1 could be one of Tony Stark's ubertech toys in the next Iron Man flick?
The company *is* located in LA, not 10 miles from Tinseltown...
As someone who's developed a lot of code containing bugs not found 'til long after it's been used, this scares the shit out of me.
Forces who don't give a rat's ass about cool tech or changing how Americans drive are giving a collective middle finger to Tesla. This guy had better study how things with Tesla are unfolding very carefully because he's next.
"a culture of long-distance driving commutes is leading to serious long-term problems with respect to suburban sprawl and blight"
Yeah, fsck all those sick bastards who don't want to live in crowded cities. They probably vote Republican, too.
clunk/crash/boom
The driver in this picture looks as tense and cramped as if he were sandwiched on a high-speed expressway between two triple length truck trailers. I'm six foot tall and getting in and out of this low-rider doesn't promise to be any great joy either.
I need an all-weather commuter car for upstate New York, not a $24K scooter designed for the photo-op in San Francisco,
Supposedly the gyroscope has a failure mode that sounds about as elegant as that of a helicopter losing its engines. Plus even the wheels will have their own gyroscopic effect at speed.
As opposed to the seemingly numerous SUV fans here, I'm apparently one of the exceptions who actually believes in this product. I heard about the C-1 in December 2012 and made my initial deposit for one only about a month later.
I love everything about this idea. If successful, it will be the cheapest plug-in electric road vehicle on the market, it will have a range second only to a Tesla and it will have the fastest charging time of all due to its small battery. The latter, along with its speed and acceleration, is made possible by its low weight, and that's largely thanks to the fact that it has only two wheels. Mileage? The C-1 will get 200 miles on a 10 KWh battery, so think about that the next time you fill'er up. In the US that's about $1.25 for a full change, or 0.625 cents a mile. And yes, it'll always be more dangerous to drive than a car, but certainly safer than any motorcycle.
Okay, you can tell from my homepage link that I'm based in the Netherlands, where cars are smaller on average than in the US, where lane splitting is legal (below a certain speed) and where gasoline prices are higher than anywhere else in the world. I also happen to have a motorcycle driver's license. But as much as I hate the fossil fuel industry (global warming, the Iraq war) and wish I could stop buying gasoline, until late 2012 there wasn't an electric vehicle available that I considered worth buying; cars like the Nissan Leaf aren't exactly cheap and don't have enough range, while the Tesla Model S is just too expensive. The Lit C-1 has both of those bases covered. And like a sports car the C-1 may not be very practical (although more so than a motorcycle), but considering what it offers in return I'm willing to put up with that.
Really it would be interesting to see how light you could make a reasonably safe vehicle, e.g. using a titanium frame with a carbon-fiber shell, then working backwards to make it cheaper from there. And by "reasonably safe," I mean putting it through the standard battery of NHTSA and insurance institute for highway safety tests.
Well, a Harley also doesn't offer enough protection to make it reasonably safe, and I think they sell pretty well in the US. Bikes sell about 500.000 units a year in there, that's a pretty ok number, roughly one in every 600 people seem to buy one each year (is my math correct? It seems too many people). There are lots of drivers, like me, ready to sacrifice safety for efficiency. I'm not saying it's a smart choice, but I think it's a choice made enough times as to create a hefty market.
People may "commute" alone, but the primary reason for a car purchase is not the commute. We'd all be in smart cars and fiats if all that mattered was getting to work efficiently and staying out of the rain. I think they need to think a bit more about why people (ok, specifically americans) buy cars.
Maybe it's only 20% of the time I need cargo space, passenger space or the ability to mount a child's car seat. The reality is, it's that 20% of the time (moving kids around, weekend trips, runs to the hardware store) that determines what kind of car I drive.
Maybe there is an economic argument to be made for maintaining a second, extremely cheap to operate vehicle. That cost based argument fails here when you consider competing low cost options like a bicycle, electric scooter, bus or a carpool.
LET the roads get crowded. You only put off the problem by feeding the beast. To get the demand for mass transit you need to create a problem; putting it off is not a permanent solution and wastes money.
Suburban roads could be eliminated every other block. There is no reason blocks have to be as small as they are and waste so much space and upkeep fees. In a city of high traffic flow the roads there now are not enough but in the sprawl there is no reason to continue sizing things like that.
We are having troubles migrating to turnabouts because people would rather spend $600 per year per intersection (that number came from a state rep) because voters are not comfortable with turnabouts.
Then we have highway... it costs billions to add lanes to it and upkeep is not cheap since we don't properly charge commercial truckers for the massive harm they cause to the highway. We have real numbers showing that adding 1 lane to the highway does not reduce traffic because by the time the construction is completed (metro area) because the demand outstrips the rate of expansion! What is the solution? They simply talk about adding 2 or 3 lanes at a time and selectively doing a slow long term expansion. Bridges... way way too many.
City zoning is all screwed up as well. In makes all these problems worse and it takes forever to fix mistakes. Housing developments make the most idiotic layouts, almost like they get a bonus for how much pavement they can put down!
I remember AZ... backyards like prison yards (minimum security floor, medium security walls) with house to house spacing that seemed more like a hallway and while it wasn't covered, a 2-3 story house above the wall on each side made it feel pretty closed in. Tons of homeowner shit like a condo or apartment complex... I couldn't see the great benefit. Sound carried between those plastered chickenwire foamboard houses... I bet a hammer and wire cutter was easier than knocking down a door...
The 3 wheeled Elio is designed for highway cruising. If you get into a crash at 75 mph, you're dead, SUV or Elio.
http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/f2/crash-testing-mini-cooper-vs-ford-f150-123180/
In another analogy, there is the Ford F150 and the Mini Cooper. Again, it's all in the "perception" and not actual reality of a big truck/suv = safety.
Something mid 70s with a 455 4-speed. 10mpg (on a good day) is what I'm looking for as my new "fun" car.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
If you need to take passengers somewhere, rent a car for the day.
I used to live with no car, and I could rent a small hatchback for $15/day on the weekends, with unlimited distance allowed.
Now I've got kids and I'm in a city with worse public transit, so it'd be a lot harder to live without a car. But it's not a large car, and if we need more capacity then I borrow a trailer or rent a truck/minivan.
Elio financials show why the aren't viable even if they are funded
I ride a motorcycle to work every day too.
Being a two wheeled vehicle it has several safety disadvantages, the design will always be inherently more dangerous regardless of how it is constructed simply because you have less than 1/2 the amount of contact patch with teh road (this also makes it more fuel efficient). And then the fact that it will have very low production numbers initially (along with increased risk of catastophic failures), would keep me away for a while. Oh that and I'd never get one because it looks super dorky. Part of the reason I ride a motorcycle vs an effiecient car is the badass factor. It shouldn't be underestimated.
Gyroscopic monorails were done 100 years ago. No code needed, and the momentum in the gyro meant the vehicle could stay upright for a good while without power.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyro_monorail
Yes having a single wheel up front does present a stability issue, which is why the Elio has two front wheels, and front wheel drive and a single rear wheel.
Lit Motors C-1: Unobtainium
Lit Motors still has yet to actually build a fully functional C-1 meeting the claimed performance specs.