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IPCC's "Darkest Yet" Climate Report Warns of Food, Water Shortages

The Australian reports that "UN scientists are set to deliver their darkest report yet on the impacts of climate change, pointing to a future stalked by floods, drought, conflict and economic damage if carbon emissions go untamed. A draft of their report, seen by the news organisation AFP, is part of a massive overview by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, likely to shape policies and climate talks for years to come. Scientists and government representatives will meet in Yokohama, Japan, from tomorrow to hammer out a 29-page summary. It will be unveiled with the full report on March 31. 'We have a lot clearer picture of impacts and their consequences ... including the implications for security,' said Chris Field of the US’s Carnegie Institution, who headed the probe.

The work comes six months after the first volume in the long-awaited Fifth Assessment Report declared scientists were more certain than ever that humans caused global warming. It predicted global temperatures would rise 0.3C-4.8C this century, adding to roughly 0.7C since the Industrial Revolution. Seas will creep up by 26cm-82cm by 2100. The draft warns costs will spiral with each additional degree, although it is hard to forecast by how much."

94 of 703 comments (clear)

  1. We've gone beyond bad science by russotto · · Score: 3, Insightful

    At this point, the IPCC is looking more like bad disaster fiction.

    1. Re:We've gone beyond bad science by geek · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Someone is getting their pockets lined. This is politics Al Gore style. Its pathetic, "food shortages" yeah right, because we all know food doesn't grow when the climate is warmer........ Scare tactics by intellectually challenged pseudo scientists.

    2. Re:We've gone beyond bad science by stox · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I guess you have not been paying attention to the drought in the Central Valley of California. You will, when food prices shoot through the roof this summer.

      --
      "To those who are overly cautious, everything is impossible. "
    3. Re:We've gone beyond bad science by phantomfive · · Score: 5, Interesting

      At this point, the IPCC is looking more like bad disaster fiction.

      What problem do you have with the data?

      The problem a lot of people have understanding AGW is separating the science that is settled from the unsettled predictions. There is widespread consensus that CO2 warms the atmosphere, and that anthropogenic CO2 has warmed it to some degree.

      At the same time, there is a lot of science that is mere hypothesis. Very few scientists think the runaway Venus effect is realistic, for example.

      The approach of the IPCC is to take the worst scenario that hasn't been conclusively rejected by the scientific community, and promoting that scenario most prominently, which is why we you see it being presented with judgement words, like "darkest yet." Their goal seems to be to make it look as dark, which is obviously not a good scientific approach.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    4. Re:We've gone beyond bad science by drolli · · Score: 2

      When setting your speed on the road, do you orient yourself on "the worst case scenario" (e.g. you car not handling your steering to avoid a suddenly appearing cow and hitting a tree in the middle of nowhere), or do you usually consider the "average scenario" (going on a dry, empty road)?

      Considering the first scenario and reducing the impact enough can save your life.

    5. Re:We've gone beyond bad science by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Compare temperatures on Venus from the magellan probe to the 1976 US standard atmosphere. They are exactly 1.176x higher at 1 atmosphere pressure. What is 1.176? It is the square root of the Sun-Venus distance divided by Sun-Earth distance. So temperature is completely explained by distance from the sun?

    6. Re:We've gone beyond bad science by Eravnrekaree · · Score: 2

      While I disagree with the poster that climate change is a fiction, I disagree that this is flamebait. He has a right to express his opinion and we ought to respect that. "Flame" is just an excuse by some to suppress any opinion they disagree with. Come on people, grow up, we ought to be more mature about this here.

    7. Re:We've gone beyond bad science by Mashiki · · Score: 3, Informative

      You mean the artificially created drought in the central valley? Between the politicians and the EPA, we're going to reap the stupidity of those who would rather dump fresh water into the ocean(among other things).

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    8. Re:We've gone beyond bad science by houstonbofh · · Score: 4, Insightful

      When setting your speed on the road, do you orient yourself on "the worst case scenario" (e.g. you car not handling your steering to avoid a suddenly appearing cow and hitting a tree in the middle of nowhere), or do you usually consider the "average scenario" (going on a dry, empty road)?

      When you are driving your car;
      After four hours of your mother shrieking at you to slow down when you are going 45 in a highway, do you eventually tune her out?

    9. Re:We've gone beyond bad science by Brett+Buck · · Score: 2

      It happens incessantly. Slashdot has the most restrictive and narrow monoculture of "acceptable opinions" of any group I know of, and that includes fundamentalist Christians.

    10. Re:We've gone beyond bad science by phantomfive · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm not sure you've understood. Science is about accurately presenting the data. In making judgements, they've left science.

      If the IPCC said, "here is our worst case scenario, but we have low confidence in our predictions," that would be accurate. That's not what they said though, is it? Are you unable to see the propaganda in their announcement?

      I'm not sure what to say to you, if you think their approach is good science. Go read some Feyman or something, hopefully he can describe good science better than I can.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    11. Re:We've gone beyond bad science by symbolset · · Score: 2

      Central valley was always a desert. This is Nature defeats Man, not the other way 'round.

      --
      Help stamp out iliturcy.
    12. Re:We've gone beyond bad science by drolli · · Score: 2

      It is in the nature of a 95% confidence band to include a scenario which only hits you with a small probability. Ignoring these without good reason is not a valid procedure.

      If i dont know a road and my experience is that the speed limitations are too conservative in 99% of the instances (e.g. curves), it is still not a valid procedure to assume that these are always too conservative.

      The IPCC report is *not* a scientific publication, since it is self-edited, has no anonymous reviewers, and no otherwise independent mechanism for the control of the content. As a scientist, i dont consider publications under this circumstances at all for making up my mind about the world. However, it is an acceptable pupose to report on the body of (scientifically valid) non-falsified hypotheses (please refer to Poppers theory on science) for advising politics how to spend money for research.

      Whether the IPCC reports succeeds in this or not, is not mine to say, but i think the debate is not going well (from all sides), considerign important topics like cloud formation are not understood wnough

        (My personal opinion is that we need *more* research on the extend and possible mechanisms AGW to direct our efforts to the places where we have the bese cost/performance ratio)

    13. Re:We've gone beyond bad science by Joce640k · · Score: 5, Informative

      The problem a lot of people have understanding AGW is separating the science that is settled from the unsettled predictions.

      Nope.

      The main problem is seeing through the fog created by the anti-AGW lobby.

      https://www.google.es/search?q...

      They think they're being free thinkers, that the AGW people are the ones drinking the establishment cool-aid. In reality it's the other way around.

      --
      No sig today...
    14. Re:We've gone beyond bad science by phantomfive · · Score: 4, Informative

      The Central Valley was definitely NOT a desert, it was a dense grassland biome with up to 24 inches of rain a year. Additionally it had annual flooding bringing nutrients and water from the mountains. The only reason it is not a forest is because most of the rain happens during the winter.

      The southern half of the Central Valley was home to the largest freshwater lake west of the Mississippi, but it's dried up over the last century and a half because the water was diverted.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    15. Re:We've gone beyond bad science by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 2

      Gigacide. Say the word to yourself until you understand what's coming.

      Wow. That's scary. It's a good thing I'm only of average height!

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    16. Re:We've gone beyond bad science by phantomfive · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The IPCC report is *not* a scientific publication

      Well said.

      However, it is an acceptable pupose to report on the body of (scientifically valid) non-falsified hypotheses

      That is an excellent goal. If that is their goal, why are they using standard propaganda techniques?

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    17. Re:We've gone beyond bad science by Joce640k · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So, you are not one of the people who has trouble recognizing which parts of AGW are settled science and which parts aren't? Is that what you are saying?

      Nope, that's just you trying to act like a smart ass by implying that _you_ do.

      If you want details, I believe that the following is settled:
      a) Climate doesn't change spontaneously, something has to drive it
      b) Global temperature is slowly going up (we keep on inventing better instruments to measure it, they keep telling us the exact same thing)
      c) The only major heat source around here is the Sun
      d) Greenhouse gases are the only gun producing any smoke at the moment (solar output isn't increasing)
      e) CO2 is a greenhouse gas
      f) Man is producing a lot of CO2 (and at the same time destroying some of the CO2 absorbing capability of the planet)

      On a more "personal opinion" level, I believe:
      g) The public consensus in the USA on AGW is very different from the rest of the world (via. paid lobbying and paid-for media stories).
      h) The AGW "debate" in the USA closely resembles the Creation-vs-Evolution "debate", ie. a never-ending game of Whac-a-Mole against arguments that sound plausible but never stand up under scrutiny, no matter how convinced the creationists were when they were parroting them. One side has to spend vast resources to produce hard evidence, the other side doesn't feel they have any burden of proof whatsoever, they just make stuff up.

      The list of arguments I refer to in (h) looks something like this. Maybe you've heard some of those arguments over the last few years. Well, guess what...?

      Disagree? Perhaps you'd like to inject _your_ facts into this.

      --
      No sig today...
    18. Re:We've gone beyond bad science by phantomfive · · Score: 3, Insightful

      ok, so then what about these facts, do you feel they are settled or not?

      A) Global warming is a threat to civilization.
      B) We must immediately shut down all our coal plants.
      C) The North Pole will be free from ice by 2015.
      D) AGW has caused more extreme weather.
      E) There is a tipping point where global warming will run away.
      F) AGW will have little noticeable effect.
      F) Global warming will cause more poison ivy.
      G) By 2014, the earth's temperature will be 1.25 degrees above the mean.
      H) We know all the components that warm the earth, to within +-5 degrees C.

      Which one of those are settled? All of them have been hypothesized by scientists (except the last one, no scientist claims that one!)

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    19. Re:We've gone beyond bad science by Joce640k · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Those are all strawmen.

      Facts: Global warming exists, mankind is driving it.

      Everything else is just a case of "when?" and "how bad?" (which we obviously can't tell you)

      --
      No sig today...
    20. Re:We've gone beyond bad science by phantomfive · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yeah, I figured you'd end up posting something like that when you first posted a response.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    21. Re:We've gone beyond bad science by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2

      a) ... there are natural known corellations, for example orbital precssion, which explains past ice age/interglacials, and Solar Magnetic field/sun spot count e.g. Maunder Minimum, when the Thames froze over during Winter. We really don't want to go back to those temperatures.
      b) ... in the instrumental record, which only covers a very short period of time on geological time scales. It's been warmer than it is now in the past (Middle Ages, Holocene climatic optimum). And what caused the warming in the 1910's-1930s, where it warmed at the same rate as from 1970's to the 1990's? (Not CO2, btw)
      c) ... agreed
      d) ... probably beause that's where the funding is?
      e) ... yes, and so is water vapour. Ever noticed that it doesn't get as warm on cloudy days, and stays warmer on cloudy nights? (at least, that's what I have observed where I live)
      f) Agreed.

      The IPCC projects are based on Computer Model, which IMHO are best described as hypotheses. Which have failed miserably to predict the temperatures over the past 15+ years, so there's either a number of factors that affect the temperature not included in the models, or the known ones not modelled correctly. It would be best to use the models that best match observed temperatures and throw out the rest - or work out what's wrong with the ones that don't match and refine them.

      "It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong."
        Richard Feynman

    22. Re:We've gone beyond bad science by KeensMustard · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Someone is getting their pockets lined.

      Is this an obtuse reference to "Lord" Christopher Monkton, who makes money by travelling the world in luxury, sucking money from his gullible audiences like a gargantuan leech draining a docile cow at the waterhole?

      Or are you referring to Anthony Watts - self proclaimed "most read denialist" who gets stipend to preach the word from the Heartland Institute?

      "food shortages" yeah right, because we all know food doesn't grow when the climate is warmer.

      Well, yes. Yes - we DO all know that, unless we are in denial.

      Scare tactics by intellectually challenged pseudo scientists.

      Scare tractics? Try looking reflectively for a while at the guy who is alleging that AGW is a massive, 150 year old conspiracy established to further - what cause exactly was that again?

      As a general observation "massive, time travelling conspiracy" is the preserve of pulp fiction, not the intellectually superior, as you allege.

    23. Re: We've gone beyond bad science by tgrigsby · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A more accurate example might be your mother screaming at you to slow down because you're going 90mph while the oil executive in the back seat is calling you a wimpy, pinko, commie hippy for driving so slow.

      --
      *** *** You're just jealous 'cause the voices talk to me... ***
    24. Re:We've gone beyond bad science by KeensMustard · · Score: 2

      So when it rains in the Central Valley of California, it's evidence against AGW?

      Are you struggling to find evidence against AGW? To determine what would be evidence against AGW?

      Let me tell you.

      Demonstrate that climate sensitivity to greenhouse gases is 0 C/(W/m2), with a repeatable, verifiable experiment, and then your frustrations will be over.

    25. Re:We've gone beyond bad science by KeensMustard · · Score: 2

      Congratulations: Your logical fallacy is personal incredulity.

    26. Re:We've gone beyond bad science by Man+On+Pink+Corner · · Score: 2, Insightful

      h) The AGW "debate" in the USA closely resembles the Creation-vs-Evolution "debate", ie. a never-ending game of Whac-a-Mole against arguments that sound plausible but never stand up under scrutiny, no matter how convinced the creationists were when they were parroting them. One side has to spend vast resources to produce hard evidence, the other side doesn't feel they have any burden of proof whatsoever, they just make stuff up.

      Actually it doesn't resemble the Creation/Evolution debate at all, and I get the heebie-jeebies when someone says it does. One of my favorite charities, the National Center for Science Education, has gone down this path recently and I wish there were a good way to talk them out of it.

      Climate models are based on just that -- models. We could still wake up one day, slap ourselves in the forehead, and admit that our computer models are either grossly in error, or missing one or more key factors that would change their output drastically. The map is not the territory, science is not a democracy or a popularity contest, and climate modeling is not a "settled science." I don't care who says it is, and I don't care what percentage of climate scientists agree. It just isn't. Sorry, but that's not the way these things work.

      On the other hand, we are absolutely not going to wake up one day and realize that we have the basics of evolution wrong. There is absolutely no possibility that we will discover that humans are not, in fact, descended from earlier hominids. There is absolutely no possibility that we will discover that we don't have ancestors in common with modern apes. That isn't going to happen. Too many independent lines of evidence have come together, making consistent predictions, providing confirmable explanations, and withstanding intense scrutiny.

      My fear is that the global-warming thing will prove to be a red herring, as usually happens whenever "B...b...but 99% of scientists agree!!!11!" is the primary argument in favor of a theory. When that happens, it's going to be almost impossible to keep the Creationists and other assorted modern-day flat-earthers from gaining the influence over public education and popular culture that they've always dreamed of.

    27. Re:We've gone beyond bad science by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Or have you not observed what happens to the posts of religious, conservative, libertarian, pro-intelligent design, or non-adherents to the cult of AGW?

      They're being modded down by those who consider them overrated or off-topic. They're being opposed by commenters who reply with their counter-arguments. They're not being deleted, their posters are not getting banned. They simply stay here. Not even obvious vulgar trolls get that treatment here. Go visit Reddit or other news sites. Observe and compare.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    28. Re:We've gone beyond bad science by rahvin112 · · Score: 4, Informative

      The lake in the central valley did dry up because water was diverted, but this was intentional. The lake was very shallow, IIRC less than 30' at the deepest location with an average less than 10'.

      The government made the decision to dry out the lake and turn the area into active farmland. A massive irrigation and diversion project was undertaken and within a small period of time they dried out the lake and began farming what remained. That land is some of the most fertile in the US.

    29. Re:We've gone beyond bad science by AaronW · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I can tell you that it is far from artificial. This year we received almost no rain or snow. Up until February there was virtually no rain. We have since only had a few storms and unseasonably warm weather. The snowpack is almost nonexistant this year. Last year was also rather dry as well. Even if they captured 100% of the water flowing from the Sierras this year it wouldn't help a whole lot.

      Water in California is very carefully managed and the politicians can't really be faulted in this case. There just isn't any water to be had.

      --
      This post is encrypted twice with ROT-13. Documenting or attempting to crack this encryption is illegal.
    30. Re:We've gone beyond bad science by Laxori666 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Check out potholer54's series on climate change. He seems to do a good job covering what the climate scientists actually say vs. what the media reports, which is usually inaccurate (on both sides of the issue). In particular you should watch the one titled "The evidence for climate change WITHOUT computer models or the IPCC". Most of climate science doesn't rely on computer models.

      Also note the IPCC doesn't do any research, rather they "[assess] the scientific, technical and socio-economic information relevant for the understanding of the risk of human-induced climate change."

    31. Re:We've gone beyond bad science by sg_oneill · · Score: 2

      The approach of the IPCC is to take the worst scenario that hasn't been conclusively rejected by the scientific community, and promoting that scenario most prominently, which is why we you see it being presented with judgement words, like "darkest yet." Their goal seems to be to make it look as dark, which is obviously not a good scientific approach.

      Wouldn't it have been quicker to have just note you actually don't have any idea whats in the report?

      The IPCC does nothing of the sort. The risk assesment framework of the IPCC is actually quite conservative and is regularly criticized by climate scientists and physicists for understating the risks involved. To its credit the IPCC takes the approach of a mass literature survey and then weights the results of the tens of thousands of research papers , and looks at what the median opinion is. Nobody is predicting a Venus result, however we do know that runaway climate change is both a very real possibility and rather nasty.

      Whatever the case is , the predictions of the IPCC are not the high ends, not the low ends, but somewhere in the middle and the other outlier predictions are also presented with the approprite probabilities assigned.

      Actually try reading the thing. The first thing you'll notice is these global warming denial blogs are not being very honest about what the IPCC actually says.

      --
      Excuse the Unicode crap in my posts. That's an apostrophe, and slashdot is busted.
    32. Re:We've gone beyond bad science by archer,+the · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Parroting is the only thing that most of us can do. Both of you are doing it, unless one of you is an actual climate scientist with appropriate degrees and experiences, who has performed his/her own experiments and data collections to research how the earth's environment has behaved in the past.

      97 out of 100 scientists are certain that the climate is going to become detrimental to our current society. That's enough for me.

      If I didn't trust scientists, my next computer or cell phone purchase would involve the following: redevelop physics from scratch, including semiconductor, RF comms, and information theory. Build a 22nm lithography process. Test it. Otherwise, how do I know I'm not falling for a hoax?

      Just because I don't understand something, doesn't mean that something doesn't exist. Yes, on the flip side, if one person tells me something, that person isn't automatically correct. That's where peer review comes in.

      For the computer purchase example, I could test a new computer. That's a great solution for that scenario. But from where do we get a second earth to test Climate Change?

      Yes, shutting down coal plants overnight is bad: it would cause massive chaos. That's exactly what climatologists are trying to avoid. However, we can work towards getting those plants offline, and work towards zero emission vehicles. On the off-chance all those scientists are wrong about climate change, at least our cities would have better air.

    33. Re: We've gone beyond bad science by riverat1 · · Score: 2

      You left out the step where it changed from "climate change" to "global warming". Gilbert Plass published several papers in the 1950's on carbon dioxide and climate change.

    34. Re:We've gone beyond bad science by rs79 · · Score: 4, Informative

      "That doesn't even begin to cover how many scientists actually believe that the IPCC reports are too conservative in their predictions."

      "many scientists". Please. Darwin. Copernicus.

      "97%+ of geologists agreed the continents were stable. It was Settled Science. Hundreds of research papers supported it. Overwhelming consensus. And wrong. And, oddly (not really, if you think about it a moment), it was not a geologist but a meteorologist, Alfred Wegener, who ultimately showed all the mutually agreeing geologists they had it all wrong; the continents move." - Michael K. Oliver

      Error bars. 75% error. For a 35 year old model to diverge like that from nature means it's basically - junk. You took applied math in school, right?

      "When your hypothesis disagrees with nature, it's wrong" - Feyman.

      --
      Need Mercedes parts ?
    35. Re:We've gone beyond bad science by Joce640k · · Score: 2

      Coal produces a lot of other nasties apart from CO2. Long term usage of coal would still be a bad idea even if CO2 was harmless.

      If a tiny fraction of the investment on military was spent on energy, it would be a solved problem by now.

      Nuclear can be perfectly safe/clean. The current view of nuclear energy is based on reactors that were designed in the 1950s for making nuclear weapons. Science/technology has advanced since then. A lot.

      --
      No sig today...
    36. Re:We've gone beyond bad science by Ferretman · · Score: 2

      I wish AGW cultists would stop throwing this kind of thing out there. All it does is damage their credibility even more.

      It's a proven falsehood that the water shortages in California are caused by global warming. Yes, California is in a drought, but the water shortages are being caused more by bad policy than by anything else:

      http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03...

      Facts are stubborn things.

      Ferretman

      --
      Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc
    37. Re:We've gone beyond bad science by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 2

      Why has their been no measurable Global Warming in 17 years? How do you come to this idiotic claim?

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
  2. sugar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    Plants will require a lot of additional water in warmer climates. You can actually bake the plants in too warm of a climate. A warmer climate means more evaporation of standing water, especially bad in places that don't get heavy rain fall. Not so much scare tactics, but I would take it with a grain of salt; However much easier to believe if you've actually taken the time to record your weather, I live in a place that is normally very very wet and it's been just far too dry the past 2-3 years and this year is aiming to be more dry than last years.

    1. Re:sugar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Plants will require a lot of additional water in warmer climates

      Yes, a warmer client will destroy crops in Greenland... You forget that for all of the places that become too warm for the current crops (or too dry for any crops) there will be a lot more that suddenly become warm enough. And all of that melting ice frees up fresh water...

      Oh, good then! So you won't mind moving from your continent that turned into a desert wasteland for food production to a better continent in order to move where the food is, right? Yes, I'm sure that'll go over smoothly with people that haven't left their fucking county they were born in.

    2. Re:sugar by peragrin · · Score: 2

      because large chunks of land are currently frozen. Canada and Russia(the two largest countries) have tons of land but only a small percentage of those lands are farmable.

      Of course this report doesn't take into account that changing weather will also change which places are warm in the winter and which are to cold to survive.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    3. Re:sugar by Hognoxious · · Score: 3, Informative

      On the other hemisphere, when you lose Southern Africa, Argentina & Australia there's nothing much South of them that you gain.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    4. Re:sugar by KeensMustard · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Have fun being reliant on Russia as your food source, buying off them in competition with the rest of the world.

    5. Re:sugar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      because large chunks of land are currently frozen. Canada and Russia(the two largest countries) have tons of land but only a small percentage of those lands are farmable.

      I keep reading people saying this, but it doesn't work that way. I can’t speak to Russia, but of the “tons of land” in northern Canada, the vast majority of it is either Laurentian Shield or frozen muskeg.

      If the climate over the Laurentian Shield warms enough to grow agriculture crops, we will be able to grow ... as close to nothing as makes no difference. The Shield was scraped bare during the last glacial maximum. The vast majority of the Laurentian Shield has soil only one or two inches deep, below which is the bedrock of the Shield.

      If the climate warms enough to thaw the muskeg, we will be able to grow ... as close to nothing as makes no difference. Muskeg is peat bog. It is next to useless for agriculture.

      Even worse, when the muskeg thaws it will give off CO2, potentially vast quantities of it, resulting in a potentially huge positive feedback loop, accelerating climate warming.

    6. Re:sugar by KeensMustard · · Score: 4, Insightful
      And presumably, at each point, you simply abandoned the house that you were living in, and then bought a new one at inflated prices at the next place?

      Plus, presumably, the government in fact, abandoned the the infrastructure that supported each house (you know: highways, railways, power lines and power stations, sewage treatment plants, government buildinggs and services). And your new government (you immigrated each time - right?) was quite happy to build new infrastructure from the ground up - at no cost to yourself and millions of other immigrants?

      We'd have to assume that's what happened, because otherwise your anecdote would not be analogous, and you would not have posted it, would you?

    7. Re:sugar by symbolset · · Score: 3, Informative

      During the Holocene optimum equatorial climes were about the same as now. It was the poles that warmed. The Sahara actually turned green, with grassland, lakes and hippopotamus.

      --
      Help stamp out iliturcy.
    8. Re:sugar by PopeRatzo · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Canada and Russia have great big areas that are too cold to farm. As the warm up, they will far outmass the areas that get too hot to farm.

      You assume there will be an even distribution of warming across the globe. And that the shift won't bring unforeseen issues.

      It's not just a matter of "everywhere gets X degrees warmer". Not when a substantial amount of water changes its state.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    9. Re:sugar by AaronW · · Score: 4, Informative

      And you do realize that the farther north you go the shorter the growing season, i.e. the days get shorter faster as you go north. You can't just move all your farming north and expect similar yields.

      --
      This post is encrypted twice with ROT-13. Documenting or attempting to crack this encryption is illegal.
    10. Re:sugar by styrotech · · Score: 4, Informative

      Not only that, but contrary to the impression given by popular map projections if you move some optimal band towards the poles you will lose more area than you gain.

      And as for the southern hemisphere, there's no new land in that direction anyway. Well not until Antarctica thaws out at least.

    11. Re:sugar by TapeCutter · · Score: 2

      The Sahara was once like the congo, it dried out due to geologic changes that saw rain water drain to the east of N. Africa where it had previously drained to the west. The same gelogic movements created the Nile river ~12ky ago.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    12. Re:sugar by KeensMustard · · Score: 4, Insightful

      we move / replace infrastructure all the time.

      Indeed we do. Included in the infrastructure we replace is (a) Power generation facilities and (b) cars, both of which are routinely replaced with better, more efficent technologies.

      Which is why I find this whole line of argument rather curious.

      You (and you cohorts) apparently think that moving a whole country including ALL the infrastrucure that supports that country, and, explicitly including the transport and opower generation infrastructure, is going to be cheaper than replacing a small portion of that infrastructure and leaving our farms where they are. How much do you think the power generation infrastructure is as a percentage of the whole? 5%? 7%?

      What a nonsense argument. I suggest if you guys can't do basic maths you aren't in a position to dictate to us how we ought to handle this situation.

    13. Re:sugar by jbolden · · Score: 2

      You (and you cohorts) apparently think that moving a whole country including ALL the infrastrucure that supports that country, and, explicitly including the transport and opower generation infrastructure, is going to be cheaper than replacing a small portion of that infrastructure and leaving our farms where they are. How much do you think the power generation infrastructure is as a percentage of the whole? 5%? 7%?

      I didn't say that. I support moving to green technologies now. But that's a very different question then whether if we don't reduce CO2 humans will face mass death a few centuries out because farms are in the wrong place. The UN's argument's that assume no adaption are stupid. People are going to move farms rather than starve billions. Also if you are going to do the price comparison you need to look at NPV. If you assume something like 5% real growth doing something 300 years from now is effectively 2.2m times cheaper than incurring that same expense today. Even if you assume only 2% you are still at 380x. Effectively we have no idea what anything will cost 3 centuries from now. We don't understand their economy well enough to do the math.

    14. Re:sugar by KeensMustard · · Score: 2

      But that's a very different question then whether if we don't reduce CO2 humans will face mass death a few centuries out because farms are in the wrong place.

      It's the same question. For a start, you haven't demonstrated that it is even possible to shift the bulk of the worlds cereal crop production from the temperate zones to the polar zones. You assume that crops grow anywhere where the temperature is roughly right. This is manifestly incorrect, you haven't accounted for the fact that plants actually need soil - and on and on it goes. But more pertinently you haven't demonstrated how this plan could possibly be cheaper than replacing the remnant fossil fuel generation equipment, and adopting cleaner technologies for transport. Especially given that we would likely adopt them anyway. This notion is dumb, it's counterintuitive, it lacks any real economic model to explain how it could possibly work.

      The UN's argument's that assume no adaption are stupid.

      Now you are engaged in strawman, or you are profoundly ignorant.

      People are going to move farms rather than starve billions.

      People are going to farm if it makes economic sense to do so. Farms aren't charities. If it becomes, on average, more difficult to farm, prices for food will go up -> more people starve. It's a simple but brutal model.

      Effectively we have no idea what anything will cost 3 centuries from now. We don't understand their economy well enough to do the math.

      Which is to say, you don't understand the economics, you don't speak for the rest of us. The economics are easy to model using some fermi-like methodology, which indicates that any large scale adaption is going to be more expensive that mitigation.

  3. Re:Credibility by paiute · · Score: 2

    "Boy who cried wolf" ring any bells?

    Yes it does. You will recall that in the end, there was a real wolf who did appear. He ate all the sheep. So if the townspeople had reacted to the warnings not with scorn but by realizing that they were unprepared for actual wolves, their sheep would have been safe.

    --
    If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
  4. Re:wouldn't it be sorry if... by phantomfive · · Score: 2

    We actually tried to clean up our mess, not because it's not our problem, but because it's better for everyone? There're plenty of studies that smog and other pollutants are correlated with rises in various illnesses.

    CO2 is not smog. If it weren't for AGW, there would be absolutely nothing wrong with adding CO2 to the atmosphere. In that case it would likely be a good thing, and help plants grow.

    Focusing on CO2 actually distracts from other pollutants, so if that your goal is to stop pollutants that cause illnesses, fixing AGW (for example, with carbon sequestration) could actually delay your goal.

    --
    "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  5. Well you're partly right by CajunArson · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The droughts in California ARE man-made, but they have nothing to do with the Global Warming boogy-man and have everything to do with 2 important facts that people seem to forget:
    1. That part of California is a freakin' desert and no, it didn't turn into a desert overnight because of Global Warming, it was a desert long before humans showed up.
    2. California's intentional man-made mismanagement of its water supply to dump water for bait-fish and for Mexico and refusal to build new reservoirs to store water from years when it has been plentiful has caught up to it now that we see California's climate doing exactly what it should be doing.

    But go ahead, blame Global Warming and burn a few witches at the stake since radical religious fanaticism with a thin veneer of "science" painted over it has now replaced rational thought.

    --
    AntiFA: An abbreviation for Anti First Amendment.
    1. Re: Well you're partly right by Greg151 · · Score: 2

      Nope, he is right.

  6. Re:When do we reach ... by bunratty · · Score: 4, Informative
    --
    What a fool believes, he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.
  7. Re:It's the end of the world as we know it by bunratty · · Score: 4, Insightful

    That's precisely the problem. The warming isn't going to cause much of a problem for most people old enough to post here. By the time the problems get too bad to ignore, we're already committed to even more problems, because the excess carbon dioxide stays in the atmosphere for hundreds of years. That's why we keep getting these warnings, so we can avoid those problems before it's too late.

    --
    What a fool believes, he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.
  8. Re:When do we reach ... by bunratty · · Score: 2

    You're referring to the temperature escalator. According to the escalator, it's always cooling!

    --
    What a fool believes, he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.
  9. Recency bias and global warming pause by Eravnrekaree · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Much of the global warming skepticism has been fueled lately by the decade long pause in the global warming average. It seems what I can gather from this is while many areas are hotter than they were previously, other places are somewhat cooler, so it balances out.

    Some of the skepticism does exhibit a recency bias, by simply ignoring everything prior to year 2000 or so. In a chart of temperatures during the past 100 years, the current pause does look rather insignificant and could be simply a temporary pause rather than a change in the trajectory. They have problems explaining away the previous 50 years of temperature increase.

     

    1. Re:Recency bias and global warming pause by rrohbeck · · Score: 4, Informative

      There was no "pause." The "slowdown" was within one sigma of the long term trend and the temperature never left the one sigma band, as Tamino has showed again and again. With newer data gathering and improved interpolation of polar regions even the "slowdown" disappers mostly.

  10. Re:Guess they didn't get the memo... by bunratty · · Score: 2

    See the temperature escalator I mention above.

    --
    What a fool believes, he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.
  11. It's always in the future. by rs79 · · Score: 2, Informative

    "pointing to a future stalked by floods, drought, conflict and economic damage if carbon emissions go untamed."

    This has been asserted since 1985.

    Meanwhile:
    Freeman Dyson speaks out about climate science, and fudge
    Climatologists Are No Einsteins, Says His Successor

    "in the late 1970s, he got involved with early research on climate change at the Institute for Energy Analysis in Oak Ridge, Tenn."

    "That research, which involved scientists from many disciplines, was based on experimentation. The scientists studied such questions as how atmospheric carbon dioxide interacts with plant life and the role of clouds in warming.

    But that approach lost out to the computer-modeling approach favored by climate scientists. And that approach was flawed from the beginning, Dyson said.

    “I just think they don’t understand the climate,” he said of climatologists. “Their computer models are full of fudge factors.”

    A major fudge factor concerns the role of clouds. The greenhouse effect of carbon dioxide on its own is limited. To get to the apocalyptic projections trumpeted by Al Gore and company, the models have to include assumptions that CO-2 will cause clouds to form in a way that produces more warming.

    “The models are extremely oversimplified,” he said. “They don’t represent the clouds in detail at all. They simply use a fudge factor to represent the clouds.”

    Dyson said his skepticism about those computer models was borne out by recent reports of a study by Ed Hawkins of the University of Reading in Great Britain that showed global temperatures were flat between 2000 and 2010 — even though we humans poured record amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere during that decade.

    http://www.economist.com/news/...

    "Atmospheric CO2 may actually be improving the environment.

    “It’s certainly true that carbon dioxide is good for vegetation,” Dyson said. “About 15 percent of agricultural yields are due to CO2 we put in the atmosphere. From that point of view, it’s a real plus to burn coal and oil.”

    In fact, there’s more solid evidence for the beneficial effects of CO2 than the negative effects, he said. So why does the public hear only one side of this debate? Because the media do an awful job of reporting it.

    “They’re absolutely lousy,” he said of American journalists. “That’s true also in Europe. I don’t know why they’ve been brainwashed.”

    I know why: They're lazy. Instead of digging into the details, most journalists are content to repeat that mantra about “consensus” among climate scientists.

    The problem, said Dyson, is that the consensus is based on those computer models. Computers are great for analyzing what happened in the past, he said, but not so good at figuring out what will happen in the future. But a lot of scientists have built their careers on them. Hence the hatred for dissenters."

    Lovelock: who predicted disaster -
    http://www.independent.co.uk/o...

    Now says:

    The problem is we don't know what the climate is doing. We thought we knew 20 years ago. That led to some alarmist books — mine included — because it looked clear-cut, but it hasn't happened," Lovelock said. "The climate is doing its usual tricks. There's nothing much really happening yet. We were supposed to be halfway toward a frying world now," he said. "The world has not warmed up very much since the millennium. Twelve years is a reasonable time it (the temperature) has stayed almost constant, whereas it should have been rising — carbon dioxide is rising, no question

    --
    Need Mercedes parts ?
  12. Re:It's the end of the world as we know it by bunratty · · Score: 5, Informative

    The trouble is that the rate that we are emitting carbon dioxide into the atmosphere far exceeds the rate at which plants can absorb it.

    --
    What a fool believes, he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.
  13. Re:Credibility by Kjella · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Yes it does. You will recall that in the end, there was a real wolf who did appear. He ate all the sheep. So if the townspeople had reacted to the warnings not with scorn but by realizing that they were unprepared for actual wolves, their sheep would have been safe.

    Time to read your childhood stories again, they were prepared for actual wolves but only as long as they responded and due to the many false alarms they ignored the actual emergency. If there's any relevant analogy to the current situation it's to not run around like Chicken Little claiming the sky is falling unless it's true because nobody will take your warnings seriously afterwards. At least some scientists and politicians like to promote their worst doomsday predictions and every time they fail to come true it hurts their credibility, leaving many people to think it's all bogus and a sham. The media doesn't exactly help either, they like extreme headlines because they sell so they often take highly speculative bullshit and print it up huge as accepted scientific facts.

    Even if you take some of the worst case predictions they're talking about something like 5C over 100 years, which might sound a lot but we're talking 0.05C/year on average. Local variations are far, far greater than that, what you personally has experienced is pretty much irrelevant. One warm summer and people say it's global warming, one cold winter and people say it's bullshit. Even when you look at 10+ year averages chances are many places have gone against the global trend, either because of natural variation or because of shifting weather patterns. What matter is if you sample thousands and thousands of places and the total keeps going up, not one particular place. But most people will look out the window and base their opinion on that.

    --
    Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
  14. does IPCC include "optimistic scenerios"? by peter303 · · Score: 2

    I sort of like the way the Social Security Trustees do their 75 year projections: they do it for three scenerios- likely, optimistic and pessimistic. Any organization that veers to one side is not very competent.

    1. Re:does IPCC include "optimistic scenerios"? by rrohbeck · · Score: 5, Informative

      Yes, they are called RCPs (Representative Concentration Pathways), what used to be the "scenarios" in older reports, and except for the dip in 2008/2009 global emissions were always above the worst case scenario. 63% of all CO2 has been emitted since scientists began to warn about AGW so there is no indication that the world will deviate from the worst case BAU path.

  15. Re:It's the end of the world as we know it by Hognoxious · · Score: 2

    anybody remember global cooling?

    I remember that it's largely a myth, if that's what you mean.

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  16. Re:It's the end of the world as we know it by Jmc23 · · Score: 2
    But are you aware that most plants can only take in that extra CO2 at certain times, that they get fatigued by high levels, that some can't grow in elevated levels?

    No, obviously you only know enough to make yourself feel smart.

    --
    Don't complain about syntax, grammar, or spelling. There is no.hell like input on android.
  17. None of those links make your case by SuperKendall · · Score: 3, Informative

    The first link points out how there is a limit to CO2 helping plant growth - but does nothing to argue against some areas being warmer producing more food, nor does it argue at all against plants doing mildly better with more CO2. It argues against levels of CO2 that are not possible harming plants.

    The second link ins something about animals having issues adapting which is irrelevant to talking about plant life and mild warming.

    The last link is just more stuff about extreme weather already debunked by actual weather events we are having.

    The problem you have when you parrot other people's ideas is that you can't effectively argue when those arguments fall out of date or or otherwise debunked (summary: we have to have more extreme weather events before you can claim warming causes them, instead of just asserting they will happen).

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  18. Re:How do food shortages make sense for warmer cli by wytcld · · Score: 2, Interesting

    First, we need some references for your claim that in the period when Europe was unusually warm there was increased overall agricultural output there. Maybe, maybe not. Second, Europe is on the whole on the cool side of temperate. It's way north on the globe. The larger proportion of the world's human population and agricultural lands are in warmer climes, many of which are already borderline in terms of water and relief from heat. If more wheat grows in Canada 20 years from now, but the central US is a permanent dust bowl, that's a problem if you're not Canadian. It can also be a problem if you are Canadian, since the US is likely to one way or another annex your land, or else insist you provide us wheat on very favorable terms.

    --
    "with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
  19. Re:It's the end of the world as we know it by houstonbofh · · Score: 2

    Climatologists have been warning about warming for many decades and what we've observed is the warming that was predicted. That seems to be the opposite of "totally wrong" to me.

    From someone who has actually been reading news for decades, take it from me. Most of the things printed in the layman press were wildly inaccurate over time.

  20. Re:Credibility by ChromaticDragon · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Please pick up "Six Degrees" and read it.

    You are woefully ill-informed if you believe 5C simply "sounds like a lot" but "local variations are far greater". The effects of Climate Change due to Global Warming are not limited to it being just a little warmer. 5C will make things very difficult.

    To your point, you need to separate the purported propaganda of us reaching a 5C increase by 2100 vs. the effects of a 5C increase. Yes indeed it is one thing to go on and on about the effects of full scale nuclear war (or a catastrophic asteroid strike, Yellowstone erupting, or whatever) while ignoring the related probability of such an event. But it's foolish to debate the effect rather than said likelihood. These are separate issues/debates. Documenting what has happened in the past at certain temps is probably quite a bit more "settled" than predicting things for the rest of the century.

  21. Re:When do we reach ... by hey! · · Score: 5, Informative

    Depends on where you live.

    Just as you should not confuse weather with climate, you should not confuse *regional* climate with *global* climate. The Medieval "Warm" Period refers to the temperatures in European climate. High temperatures around the North Atlantic were offset by anomalously cool temperatures elsewhere. In contrast average temperatures have been anomalously high in every region of the globe in the last decade or so.

    In other words, we are experiencing *global* warming now, but had *regional* warming in the MWP.

    Even withglobal warming your neck of the woods may experience instances of anomalously cool weather. Under more extreme global warming levels, where you live might even experience regional *cooling*, due to disruptions in the transfer of energy from low to high latitudes -- although that is still hypothetical at this point. At present nearly the entire planet has been experiencing higher average temperatures.

    --
    Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  22. Re:It's the end of the world as we know it by Cantankerous+Cur · · Score: 5, Informative

    Gees, where did you get your Bio degree from? No, that not true for the majority of plants (carbon is rarely the limiting growth factor). If anything, plants become lazier as a result of high CO2 by making fewer pores for air exchange. Moreover, it's not plants but microorganisms in the ocean that produce roughly 85% of our oxygen.

    Did you know that plants have mitochondria too? The way plants work is they store energy using chloroplasts during the day and expend it at night for growing. It'd be much safer for you to say that plants are carbon neutral instead of carbon negative.

  23. Re:It's the end of the world as we know it by quantaman · · Score: 5, Funny

    That's precisely the problem. The warming isn't going to cause much of a problem for most people old enough to post here. By the time the problems get too bad to ignore, we're already committed to even more problems, because the excess carbon dioxide stays in the atmosphere for hundreds of years. That's why we keep getting these warnings, so we can avoid those problems before it's too late.

    You are aware, I trust, of these things called plants. It turns out that they absorb carbon dioxide right out of the air. What's even cooler is that the more CO2 that's in the air, the faster they grow and thus the faster they absorb it. This is why greenhouses will often run with drastically increased CO2 levels.

    Wow! This changes everything, you should tell someone about your amazing discovery!

    Send it into Nature

    Abstract:
    I don't think global warming will happen because the plants will eat all the CO2 out of the air

    Introduction:
    Because plants use C02, so if we make more CO2 we'll get more plants and we'll have less CO2!

    Conclusion:
    No CO2 means no global warming!

    Future Work:
    We've got lots of CO2 so figure out why still there's more CO2 instead of more plants.

    --
    I stole this Sig
  24. Re:It's the end of the world as we know it by stenvar · · Score: 2

    Historically, many regions have experienced large amounts of local climate change, often man-made, and we have coped and adapted. Global climate change is no different: it's happening slowly enough that human migration and economic processes will adapt to it efficiently and without any major problems.

  25. Re:How do food shortages make sense for warmer cli by TubeSteak · · Score: 2

    So how can you reasonably claim that a warmer climate leads to food shortages when we have direct evidence showing we can grow more overall in a warmer climate? Warming should lead to more, and cheaper, food for all nations (well all nations that treat farmers well anyway).

    It may have something to do with the proliferation of cities, suburbs, and high density animal farming sometime during the last 1,000 years since the medieval warming period.
    And we've also done our best to deplete the stocks of every important sea creature that we like to eat.

    It's disingenuous to try and compare the two periods, for many more reasons than the few I've listed.

    --
    [Fuck Beta]
    o0t!
  26. Re:Ice Ages by bunratty · · Score: 2

    The warming we're seeing is not just recovering from an ice age.

    We're not trying to keep the temperature fixed at some ideal stable point. We're trying to avoid rapid catastrophic warming of several degrees Celsius in the space of a century or less.

    --
    What a fool believes, he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.
  27. Re:It's the end of the world as we know it by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 5, Informative

    "... and what we've observed is the warming that was predicted. That seems to be the opposite of "totally wrong" to me."

    No, it's not "the opposite of wrong"... it's just wrong. We HAVEN'T observed the warming that was predicted.

    A paper in Nature last September (pdf) was a study of 117 of the most-cited CO2 climate warming models. 114 of them not only overestimated warming, the average (mean) amount they exaggerated warming (versus actual observed temperatures) was MORE THAN 100%.

    And if you think that is somehow an anomaly, I assure you it isn't. The climate hasn't "warmed" in at least 16 years. AGW-proponent climate scientists publicly admit that they have no idea why.The reason is simple: their theory is fundamentally flawed.

    The fact is, the theory of Catastrophic Greenhouse Gas Warming is just plain weak "science", and always has been. There is an awful lot of counter-evidence that you just haven't heard about because you have to actually look for it. It isn't spoon-fed to you by the government or the news.

    Not to mention the truckloads of evidence that have continued to build concerning the compromised integrity of data, and its irresponsible handling by said climate scientists.

    Add to that the publicly reported "statistics" that are so distorted one might even be justified in calling them fraudulent, like the bogus "97% consensus" claim.

    And if you think "there has been no serious dispute" of these CO2-based warming claims, as many climate scientists and their supporters have tried to claim, you would be mistaken. That is a list of just some of the peer-reviewed papers that disagree.

    There are mountains of such information out there, if you just but look. Do yourself and everyone else a favor, and be more skeptical.

  28. Re:When do we reach ... by bunratty · · Score: 4, Informative

    No, you can make the temperature appear to be going down for short periods of time by carefully cherry picking the data. If the temperature actually went down, we would see the melting slow down instead of continuing to accelerate.

    --
    What a fool believes, he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.
  29. Re:It's the end of the world as we know it by symbolset · · Score: 2

    What you said. Also, air temperature measurements might just be the wrong measure of climate altogether.

    --
    Help stamp out iliturcy.
  30. What I find fascinating about this post by RogueWarrior65 · · Score: 2

    Is the fact that at the time of this comment, there were only three comments rated at a 5 and not even root comments but responses to other people's low-rated threads. That says a lot about people's feelings toward this particular topic. Given that people with mod points are downgrading everybody else's posts, perhaps Slashdot should consider not accepting such stories on the grounds that it's nothing more than a pissing contest.

  31. What about the inherent bias? by rasmusbr · · Score: 2, Insightful

    A study that studies the ill effects of X without considering the costs and drawbacks of combating X is always going to find that we should do something about X, so then it's no surprise that the studies about the effects of global warming find that we should do something about it, since that is the only conclusion that a study like that can reach. I'd like to see a study that compares the effects of three different government policies, assuming all of the governments on the planet do the same thing (a ridiculous assumption, but let's humor it for the sake of argument):

    Scenario 1: Governments tax the hell out of fossil fuels in order to prevent more global warming from happening.
    Scenario 2: Governments lower taxes on fossil fuels in order to help the economy grow, which will help people adapt to global warming. The warming will of course be much worse than in scenario 1.
    Scenario 3: Business as usual.

    Has this been done and what have the results been?

  32. Re:How do food shortages make sense for warmer cli by Bender0x7D1 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Your error is in assuming a simple, isolated system and ignoring the complexity of dealing with the horribly analog world of biology.

    In general, there are two considerations for when, and how much, plants grow. The first is the amount of sunlight they receive (hours per day) and the second is the number of "degree days". Since duration of sunlight isn't going to change (at a certain latitude), let's focus on "degree days" first.

    A "degree day" is based on the temperature of the day, so the higher the temperature - the higher the value. However, there are bounds for this. For example, corn needs at least 50 degrees Fahrenheit, but not more than 86 degrees Fahrenheit. i.e. - Below 50 means "0 degree days" and 92 will be the same number of degree days as if it were 86.

    The problem comes in when it is far too warm which, for corn, comes in around 86 degrees. The plant hasn't adapted for growing in temperatures much higher, and will shut down growth; much higher temperatures will even cause damage to the plant. Here is a human analogy - a human might be able to run really fast and really far but, if it is 115 degrees outside, that isn't going to happen and any activity may result in heat stroke. A plant will be stressed in this kind of heat and will actually be damaged. In this way, too much heat will cause plants to grow less, and we will have lower yields.

    However, since plants also depend on certain amount of sunlight, it isn't a simple matter of moving things northward (or southward in the Southern Hemisphere) to match temperature. All of the plants are also expecting a certain duration of sunlight. This isn't constant with latitude, so moving the plants north will reduce yield. (And more sunlight doesn't mean higher yield - plants also do things at night like release water vapor.) This means that we will have to reengineer our crops to match new conditions - which will take decades. (And crop genetics isn't a simple matter - companies spend billions on trying to make better species.) So, until we do that, we will have lower yields.

    Also, many plant diseases like the heat (or like that they don't freeze to death in the winter - see Asian Soybean Rust ranges) - so they will enjoy millions of square miles of new territory - increasing the cost of production (herbicides and pesticides) and, since bugs and molds eat the plants, will give us lower yields.

    The other problem is related to economics and infrastructure. Farmers have certain equipment to plant and harvest the crops native to their area. Plus, their fields have been designed for those certain crops. For example, they may be terraced in a certain way or be designed with a certain level of drainage based on existing weather patterns (temperature and rainfall). Renovating millions of square miles of farmland is going to be expensive and ridiculously time consuming and until it is modified to match new, prevailing weather patterns, will contribute to lower yields.

    The other side to the economic coin is that decisions are not going to be made on a 50-100 year strategy. To operate next year, a farm needs to turn a profit this year. So, they aren't going to completely retool if yields go down 10% - it would make no sense. The capital costs would dwarf any profit from the new crops being put in. Therefore, they will operate at lower capacity and accept a lower profit - since it is still a profit. Sure, we will get changes when push comes to shove, but that will take decades as climate change forces them to change. Until that point - lower yield.

    Moral of the story, we are looking at decades of lower yields as climate change really kicks in.

    --
    Reading code is like reading the dictionary - you have to read half of it before you can go back and understand it.
  33. Re:It's the end of the world as we know it by houstonbofh · · Score: 2

    Of course since these facts go against tightly held beliefs, you will never get any "Informative" mods... You might get a Troll or two...

  34. Re:It's the end of the world as we know it by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 2

    "Of course since these facts go against tightly held beliefs, you will never get any "Informative" mods... You might get a Troll or two..."

    I've been experiencing those for years. Hasn't stopped me yet.

    Armies of Kool-Aid drinkers can indeed make things difficult at times. There is a difference, though, between these particular Kool-Aid drinkers, and those in Jonestown. In Jonestown, they were all told they were going to a higher place. In this case, they were all told that they are going to a fiery hell if they don't give government control over the very air they breathe.

    In both cases, there has been a lot of harm to a lot of people.

  35. Lemme try and explain by tanveer1979 · · Score: 4, Informative

    I come from a farming family, we do produce lots of crops including wheat.
    If temperatures go warmer by a degree. It won't matter. Really it won't.
    however, as temperatures change, rainfall patterns change.
    For example, we get rain from westerlies in Northwest India from Dec-End feb.
    So wheat gets water at times of growth, and while harvesting end march - late april there is hardly any rain.

    Over the past 10 years it has changed. It can rain heavily in march-april also, which will destroy almost ripe wheat crop.
    Heck, westerlies are active into may now.

    Such change in rainfall patterns can destroy crops.

    Another example, the himalayas got a lot of snow this year. Much more than normal. Good thing. But all of it started in feb in some regions, which will result in poor apple crop this time in some regions.

    Any climate change which alters patterns(not necessarily warming or cooling, but change) has the potential to destroy agricultural yields. So climate change is a bad thing in general for agriculture unless it happens over millenia.
    I would not mind climate change if it happened gradually like in olden times. We would adapt. But rapid change in rainfall patters over 3 decades. Everything goes for a toss.

    --
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  36. Re:It's the end of the world as we know it by hairyfeet · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Here is the problem I have personally with AGW...it DOES NOT MATTER if you believe it or not, DOES NOT MATTER if AGW is 100% correct and happening because a a handful of ultra rich leeches has made damn sure that the ONLY "solution" you will get will be buying their magical carbon indulgences at a greatly elevated price of course.

    Read the article above or look up "Al Gore carbon billionaire" to see why AGW does not matter as long as fucktards like Gore and Goldman Sachs have their fat piggie hands out, I mean for fucks sake Al Gore lives in a McMansion, flies around with a handful of guys in his personal LEAR JET and has a fricking fleet of SUVs drive him around to tell YOU what a shit you are for not taking the bus yet he has the gold plated balls to say he is "carbon neutral" because HE PAYS HIMSELF indulgences from his own fucking company...which he gets a God damned tax writeoff for!

    I'm sorry folks but that is EXACTLY what you will get with Crap and Trade and carbon indulgences, a handful of uberrich douchebags that live like kings while telling YOU that you need to eat bugs and ride a fucking bus, all the while they get tax credits for moving YOUR money from their left pocket to their right!!! And you notice rev Al and Goldman NEVER EVER say a fucking word about limiting imports from China and India, the two biggest polluters which in the case of China we can actually detect it from the west coast? Wanna know why? Because that would hurt their profits LULZ.

    If you wanna actually support real change? DON'T BUY THE SNAKE OIL being pushed by scammers like Gore and GS! They are counting on all these reports making you foolish enough to go "OMFG we have GOT to do something!" which will be followed by them selling you some scam like carbon indulgences which will ONLY give more of what we've had for the past half a century, a handful of uberrich scum making insane bank and exporting misery.

    So until Rev Al and his pals aren't in the way with their hands out? You damned right I'm gonna fight against AGW, not because i don't think dumping crap in the air is bad, but because I don't think Gore's magic billion dollar carbon be-gone spray is gonna do a fucking thing except give Gore the ability to buy the nicest land and best food while YOU are supposed to live like a third world peasant...fuck that shit!

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    ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
  37. Re:Indeed! by delt0r · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Nothing is ever inconsistent with AGW predictions. Because it predicts everything.

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    If information wants to be free, why does my internet connection cost so much?
  38. Re:It's the end of the world as we know it by Pino+Grigio · · Score: 2

    I thought they got it wrong by around 150%. But hey, what's 50% between scientists when you're already 100% wrong? The whole argument is utterly moronic. They don't know jack-shit about anything much. They can measure temperature reasonably well, but even there the temptation to go back and "adjust" past temperatures to make them cooler and "adjust" current temperatures to make them warmer, thus exaggerating the trend, is too much for them. The fact that we allow them to get away with this is one of the reasons public trust in science and scientists is rapidly reducing. Pretty soon these "scientists" (doing science in its broadest possible sense) will be held in as high esteem as lawyers and estate agents.

  39. Here is the Definitive Prounouncement: Bunk by fygment · · Score: 4, Insightful

    IPCC: doom gloom and the seas will rise by 'x' by 2100

    Counter argument: given the complexity of the system and the shallow understanding of many processes, is it not likely that some small perturbation will greatly alter the predicted outcomes of your model ... especially over the time frames you are talking about?

    IPCC: then we shall assume that if nothing changes, our outcomes will be proven valid

    Counter argument: when in all history has 'nothing changed'? Ergo your models are so brittle as to be utterly unrealistic.

    Also when the IPCC starts adding qualifiers that highlight the _accuracy_ of their models, then maybe they will have some credibility. But right now, where are the caveats and cautions clearly stating the assumptions of the models and the sensitivity of the model outcomes to those assumptions? That's right, there are none ever shown to the public.

    Bunk.

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    "Consensus" in science is _always_ a political construct.
  40. Re:How do food shortages make sense for warmer cli by dave420 · · Score: 2

    Changing your crops means changing nearly everything a farmer does. It's not a small task in any way. And the temperature might change even faster if we reach a tipping point (say, the vast methane deposits under the tundra permafrost in Russia get released, or ocean acidification kills off large amounts of our oxygen-producing algae). You are relying on the absolute-best-possible-scenario, which is clearly highly unlikely to be the case. And your last line just ignores everything he had to say. Your bias is showing.