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Homeopathic Remedies Recalled For Containing Real Medicine

Posted by timothy on from the fake-fake-vs-real-fake dept.

ananyo (2519492) writes "The U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has recalled homeopathic remedies made by a company called Terra-Medica because they may contain actual medicine — possibly penicillin or derivatives of the antibiotic." Diluted enough times with pure water, though, maybe these traces would be even more powerful.

55 of 173 comments (clear)

  1. Sarcasm by ZombieBraintrust · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I think many people are going to miss the sarcasm in the summary.

    1. Re:Sarcasm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      No, it's not sarcasm! It's the gospel truth in how it works!
      FREE XENU!

    2. Re:Sarcasm by mwvdlee · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I though the idea of homeopathic water was to dilute the percieved cause* of the ailment. Should diluting a helpful ingredient be considered harmful then?

      *) for very, VERY loose definitions of "cause".

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    3. Re:Sarcasm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Except that the sarcasm gets it wrong. The idea of homeopathy (as its name indicates) is to cause the body to fight against the effects of the diluted substances. So diluted penicillin would make the body fight antibiotics rather than bacterial infections.

      If you believe in homeopathy, traces of antibiotics are a really bad idea to have in homeopathic medication. And if you don't believe in homeopathy, there is no point in buying the medication in the first place.

      So yes, it makes complete sense to withdraw the medication that is contaminated with penicilline. Depending on the dosage, it can actually be dangerous or counterproductive to people with penicilline allergies. But even if we are talking about homeopathic traces, you don't want them in there if homeopathy is supposed to make sense.

    4. Re:Sarcasm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      > And if you don't believe in homeopathy, there is no point in buying the medication in the first place.

      So homeopathy is one of those things that requires faith to work? Very scientific indeed.

    5. Re:Sarcasm by MiniMike · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Depending on the dosage, it can actually be dangerous or counterproductive to people with penicilline allergies.

      I'm allergic to Penicillin (and similar *cillins), and to idiocy, so this 'remedy' would be doubly dangerous for me.

    6. Re:Sarcasm by Bill,+Shooter+of+Bul · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Within the insane homeopathic industry, that's correct. However, penicillin isn't always a helpful ingredient to everyone. Some are deathly allergic. So for those people it would "help" according to people who lack any cognitive function measurable by modern science.

      Also relevant:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

      --
      Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
    7. Re:Sarcasm by ColdWetDog · · Score: 3, Informative

      If you believe in homeopathy, traces of antibiotics are a really bad idea

      Traces of antibodies are a really bad idea, period. Exposing bacteria to something that doesn't kill them teaches them to become resistant.

      This stuff isn't at a high enough concentration to alter the population dynamics of any bacteria in the gut (the most likely target, there should be few bacteria anywhere else but on the skin). But the concern it the dosage would be high enough to trigger an anaphylactoid response as that system comes with a nice group of biological amplifiers as standard equipment.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    8. Re:Sarcasm by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 2

      Wait, Homeopathy is like vaccination????

      Yep.

      For a long time allergists and allergy desensitization treatments were disparaged by much of the medical community because of the procredure's similarity to Homeopathic treatments and theory.

      Does it cause Autism?

      Nope.

      Neither, apparently, does vaccination. If I recall correctly: The research claiming to show that was sponsored by trial lawyers, many attempts were made to replicate it but they all failed, the journal which published it (and, eventually, even the doctor who performed it) withdrew it. Vaccines have some risks and downsides, both from the active ingredients and the preservatives, but apparently autism is not one of them.

      Of course, after all the publicity, there are plenty of people who still believe in a vaccine/autism connection. Just as there are still people who believe in autointoxication and that a lack of "regular" daily bowel movements sickens people - a theory that was heavily pushed by the US government during WW I, when it was covering up the spreading of the influenza epidemic by its refusal to "hamper the war effort" by minimizing movement of infected troops among US bases at home.

      --
      Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
    9. Re:Sarcasm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      The research claiming to show that was sponsored by trial lawyers, many attempts were made to replicate it but they all failed,

      Worse than that, it was shown that Wakefield (the fraud who did the bogus study) selected the children in the study because they were already showing the symptoms he was looking to blame on vaccination, then gave them vaccines, blamed their symptoms on the vaccines, and gave them painful, unnecessary tests to "prove" how harmful the vaccination was. This was all so that he could (after being paid to do so) discredit vaccines in order to promote a snake-oil "alternative" immunization method, which was also shown to be completely useless. And of course, blind to the irony, the anti-vaccine movement quite often claims vaccines are there only because the doctors are being paid off, and you should "follow the money" to see proof. (which they never actually do...)

      the journal which published it (and, eventually, even the doctor who performed it) withdrew it.

      Well, the journal withdrew it, yes. Wakefield didn't though, instead he himself was withdrawn, and had his medical license taken away as a result of his unethical behavior.

    10. Re:Sarcasm by Bacon+Bits · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Should diluting a helpful ingredient be considered harmful then?

      "Helpful" is not necessarily true. It's possible to have a life-threatening allergy to penicillin.

      Additionally, all antibiotics intended for human medical use are legally available only with a prescription in the US.

      --
      The road to tyranny has always been paved with claims of necessity.
    11. Re:Sarcasm by cusco · · Score: 3, Informative

      While at the same time you can go down to the feed store and buy the very same antibiotics, nominally for animal use, by the liter.

      --
      "Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
    12. Re:Sarcasm by meerling · · Score: 2

      They believe in the money. It doesn't matter how gullible and ignorant the buyer is, the money is still money and works just the same. Unlike homeopathy, which doesn't work at all.

    13. Re:Sarcasm by rainmouse · · Score: 2

      > And if you don't believe in homeopathy, there is no point in buying the medication in the first place.

      So homeopathy is one of those things that requires faith to work? Very scientific indeed.

      So, could I in theory make a homoeopathic bomb. As it becomes more powerful the more it's diluted, eventually I could just rid the world of stupid people.

    14. Re:Sarcasm by ClickOnThis · · Score: 3, Informative

      I though the idea of homeopathic water was to dilute the percieved cause* of the ailment. Should diluting a helpful ingredient be considered harmful then?

      Quite so, which is why diluted vitamin C will eventually kill you.

      Only if it's diluted in enough water to drown you.

      --
      If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
    15. Re:Sarcasm by jythie · · Score: 2

      That it would, but then again homeopathic remedies kinda defeat the purpose of remedies.

    16. Re:Sarcasm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Citation needed on your claim that smell is magic.

    17. Re:Sarcasm by Darinbob · · Score: 2

      A toxin is bad for you. Therefore, less of the toxin is better for you. Even less of it is even better. Therefore by induction, diluting it down until it no longer exists should be amazingly good for you!

      But basically this theory came about at the time when medicine science was already very bad. Thus a bogus theory by a charlatan was not much different from the state of the art in medicine, and probably better for you than leeches or being treated by doctors who didn't wash their hands. The only odd thing really was that this one particular bogus idea survived out of the multitudes that vanished.

    18. Re:Sarcasm by Mr2cents · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Of course! Quantum effects!

      Every quack claims "quantum effects" for justifying their quackery these days. Nothing new. Me is not impressed.

      --
      "It's too bad that stupidity isn't painful." - Anton LaVey
    19. Re:Sarcasm by ultranova · · Score: 2

      Only if it's diluted in enough water to drown you.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_intoxication

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

  2. Homeopothy ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Even though it's been diluted to the point where just about every single molecule has been replaced, it can somehow remember all the good stuff it used to contain.

    And yet, for some strange reason, it doesn't remember the fact that it used to contain bovine fecal matter and all sorts of other bad stuff.

    That's the bit I find curious, although maybe that's where the bovine fecal matter shines through :-)

    1. Re:Homeopothy ... by MiniMike · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And yet, for some strange reason, it doesn't remember the fact that it used to contain bovine fecal matter

      This condition is transferred to the homeopathic practitioner.

      I've met a few, and the transfer is very effective.

    2. Re:Homeopothy ... by Joce640k · · Score: 4, Interesting

      How come the homeopathic practitioners don't just row out into the sea and throw their goose livers in there? They could cure all diseases overnight. They must be mean capitalists if they're not doing things like that.

      --
      No sig today...
    3. Re:Homeopothy ... by qazsedcft · · Score: 4, Funny

      And it's been drunk by at least one dinosaur too.

    4. Re:Homeopothy ... by cyborg_zx · · Score: 3, Insightful

      How come the homeopathic practitioners don't just row out into the sea and throw their goose livers in there? They could cure all diseases overnight. They must be mean capitalists if they're not doing things like that.

      Where's the little glass bottles? Where's the shaking? Where's the successive titrations? You're not applying the true principles here, just a ludicrous caricature! That's why what you propse won't work. Not because it's a fundamentally incorrect Victorian era disease hypothesis.

    5. Re:Homeopothy ... by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 2

      How come the homeopathic practitioners don't just row out into the sea and throw their goose livers in there? They could cure all diseases overnight. They must be mean capitalists if they're not doing things like that.

      Simple reason. It won't be diluted enough and thus not very potent. I mean you can't get that 1 part in 1.0x10^200 dilution by dumping a goose liver, and even if you could how would you manage to do that magic shake on an ocean full of water at once. Probably at best they could only manage a 1 part in 1.0x10^20 to 1 part in 1.0x10^30, which wouldn't be any where near strong enough, using that method.

      --
      Time to offend someone
  3. +5 Funny for TFS by mwvdlee · · Score: 2

    The subject line quite literally had me laughing out loud.
    Without doubt the funniest thing I've encountered this week, perhaps even this month.

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    1. Re:+5 Funny for TFS by Maria_Celeste · · Score: 5, Funny

      Agree. Sometimes the glass is 1/2^1,000,000 full.

      --
      The world is a stage, but the play is badly cast.
  4. That's okay by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Diluted humor is funnier to those who actually get it.

    1. Re:That's okay by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Humoropathic remedies?

    2. Re:That's okay by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Whoosh fulfillment.

  5. First Post! Yes! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    At least it would have been if all of the other posts before this one had been diluted enough.

  6. Tap Water by RichMan · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I believe "contains actual medicine" could be said of tap water.

    http://www.rsc.org/chemistrywo...

  7. Wonder if there was a freak out. . . by smooth+wombat · · Score: 4, Funny

    by those who were using this quack remedy?

    I can almost hear the screams of terror when the news was announced:

    "WHAT?! There's REAL medicine in this? Holy shit, that stuff will kill me!"

    --
    We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
    1. Re:Wonder if there was a freak out. . . by Barsteward · · Score: 2

      its a bad day for her, they've just worked out autism starts developing in the womb

      --
      "The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
  8. Homeopathic principles by Kinthelt · · Score: 2

    Shouldn't sea water be considered a wonder drug in homeopathy, because everything eventually makes its way into the ocean and gets ultra-diluted.

    --

    "Evil will always triumph over good, because good is dumb." - Dark Helmet (Spaceballs)

    1. Re:Homeopathic principles by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2

      Shouldn't sea water be considered a wonder drug in homeopathy, because everything eventually makes its way into the ocean and gets ultra-diluted.

      No. A homeopathic remedy is typically diluted by a factor of one hundred, one hundred times. So one liter of original substance would be diluted by 1e200. All the world's oceans contain about 1.35e9 cubic km, or 1.35e21 liters. So diluting with the ocean would be shy by 179 orders of magnitude.

    2. Re:Homeopathic principles by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2

      Those that get diluted get repeatedly diluted by a factor of TEN not HUNDRED.

      Both Wikipedia and The Society of Homeopaths state that the standard "C-scale" is based on dilutions of one hundred.

      And this is NOT repeated 100 times, the maximum AFAIK is 23.

      Nope. Some remedies go up to 200C which is 100^200 or 1e400. For instance the anti-flu drug Oscillococcinum uses a dilution of 200C.

    3. Re:Homeopathic principles by CauseBy · · Score: 4, Funny

      Pfft. Whatevs. You guys both missed the point which is that homeopaths "tap the bottle". That's how it works, with the tapping. Sheesh, you guys are ignorant.

    4. Re:Homeopathic principles by ColdWetDog · · Score: 5, Funny

      Or both.

      Question: How can a homeopath do it right?

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    5. Re:Homeopathic principles by wagnerrp · · Score: 2

      Oscillococcinum, one of the most common of these quack remedies, typically comes in 200C dilution. A C dilution is a 1/100th dilution, so 200C is 1/(100^200) dilution rate. Then it is not a "homeopathic" medical but nonsense.

      Wait... are you suggesting that some of this bullshit actually isn't complete nonsense?

    6. Re:Homeopathic principles by Ioldanach · · Score: 3, Interesting

      If they aren't diluted, they aren't homeopathic. Holistic, maybe.

      Why don't you simply google for homeopathic medicals and check yourself?

      I'm well aware of the theoretical basis of homeopathic medicine, but even so I already refreshed my memory with google and a few sites both supporting and debunking it. I even included a link to wikipedia in my original. If you want to dispute my claim, provide a citation and not a "google it yourself" response.

      Homeopathy is based on the idea that a substance that causes the symptoms in normal quantities cures the symptoms in smaller quantities. Hence the dilution.

      Oscillococcinum, one of the most common of these quack remedies, typically comes in 200C dilution. A C dilution is a 1/100th dilution, so 200C is 1/(100^200) dilution rate.

      Then it is not a "homeopathic" medical but nonsense.

      Quite a lot of homeopathic products use the C dilutions, in surprisingly high numbers. Of course, there are also a number of products that use small numbers of X (1/10th) dilutions as well. The 3X-6X dilutions do result in a product that contains the active ingredient. Of course, if I started with a 1g sample of a drug, say, tacrolimus, and performed a 3X dilution on it, I'd end up with a 1mg product. This isn't homeopathy, because that is well with in the dose-response curve for that drug and the drug at that level produces a direct and specific response in line with its properties.

    7. Re:Homeopathic principles by jc42 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Oscillococcinum, one of the most common of these quack remedies, typically comes in 200C dilution. A C dilution is a 1/100th dilution, so 200C is 1/(100^200) dilution rate.

      Of course, there are also a number of products that use small numbers of X (1/10th) dilutions as well. The 3X-6X dilutions do result in a product that contains the active ingredient.

      Funny example: Recently a (real ;-) doctor recommended a particular plant extract to my wife, to treat a minor skin condition that caused major itching and reddening. She found it at Whole Foods, and I noticed that it was labelled as "homeopathic", with a 1X dilution. So it was actually 10% the active ingredient.

      It actually worked quite well; the problem disappeared in a few days and hasn't recurred. Checking online showed that it's one of many "natural" ingredients that can be sole OTC, as long as no specific medical claims are made.

      So we might ask why they labelled it "homeopathic" when it has such a high fraction of active ingredient. Our guess is "marketing": The company that packages it wants to sell to the not-insignificant fraction of the population that believes in homeopathic cures. The doctors probably just grin, knowing that it's meaningless, but also knowing that a good number of traditional "folk" remedies are actually useful, as long as the problem is minor and precisely-measured medicine isn't required.

      Actually, years ago I was diagnosed with chronic "dry skin" by a doctor, who recommended olive oil. He did explain that it really isn't a medicine at all; it just slows down evaporation and lets the skin retain more of the water it gets from deeper tissues. It worked well enough that he said real medication wasn't needed. I've used it off and on ever since, mostly in winter when indoor air is typically very dry, and it works quite well. I wonder if such plant oils are ever labelled "homeopathic", perhaps at a 0X "dilution factor". ;-)

      (That doctor also joked about it being a medicine he learned from his Italian grandmother.)

      --
      Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
  9. It's time to fix this by meustrus · · Score: 2

    It's about damn time something was done to fix this homeopathic mess. Read the Wikipedia article on Homeopathy for a moment. The thing that struck me about it is not the "diluting makes it stronger" part. Everybody knows that. What struck me is that "homeopathic remedies" are basically always prescription-only.

    Why do we allow non-prescription drugs to bypass FDA inspection because they are labelled "homeopathic"? I mean, truly homeopathic drugs should not be any cause for concern, but then they should also only be taken by prescription. What we have instead is a menagerie of sham drugs claiming to be "homeopathic" to avoid drug testing. Nothing 1x or 2x diluted should ever seriously be sold as "homeopathic".

    It's about damn time to get rid of the special treatment altogether. Slapping a "homeopathic" label on a drug must not be enough to excuse it from proper testing. I could understand it it was diluted 10x, but then that only applies to the "active ingredient". What we have here is a drug with an "inactive ingredient" that happens to be penicillin (whether it was intentionally added or not - and excuse me, but what part of diluting a homeopathic drug involves "fermentation"?).

    Alternative medicine is one thing, but it's something else if the producers themselves mix the product with real medicine because they think it is actually snake oil.

    --
    I sometimes ask revealing, often ignorant-seeming questions. Maybe they're harder to answer than you think.
    1. Re:It's time to fix this by ColdWetDog · · Score: 2

      Homeopathic remedies are not 'prescription', if by that you mean an approval from a licensed Medical Doctor, Doctor of Osteopathy, Doctor of Medical Dentistry or Doctor of Veterinary Medicine (and some other practitioners depending on the state*.

      Homeopathic remedies are approved by the FDA because some Congresscritter decided it was a good idea for the FDA to follow the manufacturing practices of these 'pharmacies'. And that is exactly what the FDA did. They found that the level of manufacturing quality was way substandard. So substandard that the 'clean' water that was used as a diluent was contaminated with enough fungi to produce a detectable level of penicillin.

      So, in this respect, the system worked. Primum non nocere (first, do no harm).

      * As always, US centric. YMMV.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
  10. Effective against... penicillin poisoning? by Mjlner · · Score: 2

    Diluted enough times with pure water, though, maybe these traces would be even more powerful.

    According to the homeopathic principle, its efficacy would be directed at ailments caused by penicillin.

    --
    Lemon curry???
  11. FDA, why not FTC too? by davidwr · · Score: 2

    They were recalled for saying "no antibiotics" on the package but having measurable amounts of them in the product.

    In my dream world, this should have been a joint effort by the FDA and the Federal Trade Commission.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
    1. Re:FDA, why not FTC too? by mr_mischief · · Score: 2

      In your dream world you'd involve two huge government bureaucracies when one accomplished the recall without the other? I can see handing off from one to the other if they were still causing the problem and the first agency was unable to change the behavior. Maybe we should think a bit before pulling in all the coordination costs up front though when they may not be necessary.

  12. Oblig. Mitchell and Webb video by ilsaloving · · Score: 4, Funny

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

  13. This happens all the time by capedgirardeau · · Score: 2

    This happens all the time, some quack alt "medicine" is recalled because it actually contains a known effective drug. Most often it is "herbal" dick pills that contain the active ingredient in traditional ED medications.

    Getting on the "Recalls, Market Withdrawals and Safety Alerts for U.S. Food & Drug Administration (FDA)" email list can be very entertaining:

    http://www.fda.gov/AboutFDA/ContactFDA/StayInformed/GetEmailUpdates/default.htm

    --
    Wax on, wax off baby!
  14. Many pharmacies carry these by Sir+Holo · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I got marked troll last time I said this, but it is true.

    Several of my local pharmacies have "homeopathic cures" sections.

    A pretty clear violation of ethics, I would think.

    1. Re:Many pharmacies carry these by ColdWetDog · · Score: 2

      My local pharmacist carries these as well. I know them fairly well and this is a source of endless entertainment on my part (I'm a 'classic' MD). They do it for money. Plain and simple.

      And, to be fair, the stuff is generally less dangerous than the stuff I prescribe which fails to work a distressingly high percentage of the time.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
  15. Amusing - But Contamination is Contamination by careysub · · Score: 2

    The fact that an inert placebo product is being contaminated by some random active pharmaceutical is funny, true, but contamination is contamination. A consumer product is contaminated with something it is not supposed to have; and low levels of antibiotic are actively harmful, not helpful. Since a safe product is rendered measurably unsafe, it is good that this was caught. Drug manufacturers regularly demonstrate that without monitoring and regulation bad products will enter the marketplace.

    --
    Starships were meant to fly, Hands up and touch the sky - Nicky Minaj
  16. Homeopathic Innovation! by VortexCortex · · Score: 2

    I have invented a homeopathic work-around for the concerned.

    I have just discovered a way to dilute the diluted water itself! Placing the homeopathic pure water solution into a crystal goblet near a west facing window during the week prior to and/or following the summer solstice will dilute the water with pure sunlight!

    Soon one will notice that the water itself has been completely diluted and is filled with the radioactive echo of the quantum entangled liquid. Be warned: You must drink the entire cup of sunlight energy & air diluted liquid; Resist the urge to take a small sip or else the dosage dilution in your body will be so powerful you may overdose on the potent hot air.

    DISCLAIMER: Consult a local fire station immediately at the first sign of smoke as it may blow up your ass!

  17. what about "2x HPUS" products? by PJ6 · · Score: 2

    What I find more confusing is that I know of at least two products labelled "homeopathic" that actually work because they contain real medicine at resonable concentrations ("2x HPUS", or even "1xHPUS"). ZICAM contains zinc glycine glucconate, which had been proven in double-blind clinical trials to reduce the severity and length of a common cold (and I can attest to this from personal experience), and Arnica gel, which contains a powerful anti-inflammatory extracted from a plant. Another product that I know from personal experience that actually works pretty damn well.

    Can someone explain to me why the FDA thinks is OK to label real medicine "homeopathic"? And why would a company chose to label real medicine "homeopathic", when it's likely to put off people who know that homeopathy is bunk?