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GCHQ and NSA Targeted World Leaders, Private German Companies

Posted by Soulskill on from the caught-with-your-hand-in-the-cookie-jar dept.

Advocatus Diaboli sends this news from Der Spiegel: "Documents show that Britain's GCHQ intelligence service infiltrated German Internet firms and America's NSA obtained a court order to spy on Germany and collected information about the chancellor in a special database. Is it time for the country to open a formal espionage investigation? ... A secret NSA document dealing with high-ranking targets has provided further indications that Merkel was a target. The document is a presentation from the NSA's Center for Content Extraction, whose multiple tasks include the automated analysis of all types of text data. The lists appear to contain 122 country leaders. Twelve names are listed as an example, including Merkel's."

145 comments

  1. Spy agencies spying? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Redundant

    Say it ain't so!

    1. Re:Spy agencies spying? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And if this news was about Russians caught spying on USA and Britain, there'd be a bunch of people foaming at the mouth declaring "act of war" instead of the recently common "oh well, that's just what they do" dismissive brush-off.

      Hypocrites everywhere.

    2. Re:Spy agencies spying? by lonOtter · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Murderers murdering? Say it ain't so!

      --
      [End Of Line]
    3. Re: Spy agencies spying? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      On our friends and allies. On you.

  2. Feelings hurt by j_l_cgull · · Score: 1

    Since USAian's hurt feelings are a matter of national security, NSA is well within the law for collecting info about what Germans think.

    1. Re:Feelings hurt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Since USAian's hurt feelings are a matter of national security, NSA is well within the law for collecting info about what Germans think.

      What?

      Germany is a powerful country. It's leadership - whoever it is - is going to be spied upon by every nation with the resources to do so.

      Or do you really think countries like China, Russia, and even France don't spy on German leaders?

    2. Re:Feelings hurt by SuricouRaven · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But you're not supposed to get caught!

    3. Re:Feelings hurt by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Well, the very least you should do is not get caught. Especially if you just said a few weeks ago that you're so deeply, incredibly sorry that some overzealous idiots at the NSA spied on your good friend Merkel and that you promise that it will never ever happen again, pinky swear with cherry on top.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    4. Re:Feelings hurt by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      This spying happened before the "we will nevrr do it again" line that came from Obama.

        It is yet another of Snowden's whistle blowing leaks that only exposed domesttic spying and illegal activities that i was rrvently told was all he exposed.

    5. Re:Feelings hurt by MrBigInThePants · · Score: 1

      I see your point, that makes it ok then.

      All aboard and full steam ahead!

    6. Re:Feelings hurt by Smauler · · Score: 2

      Do you think, then, that just about every other country which is spying on Germany is doing it much better than the US? Is that your argument?

    7. Re:Feelings hurt by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      A criminal act is a criminal act, get caught and you should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law, spying is not an excuse for a criminal act. Germany as well as all other countries should actively pursue those involved and prosecute them to the full extent of the law, keeping in mind the death penalty for espionage still applies in the majority of countries. You want to behave in a criminal fashion expect the consequences you deserve, especially keep in mind there is no statute of limitation on espionage.

      Where a government wants to pursue espionage via the internet, other countries have the right to pursue reparations via the WTO. Why the world trade organisation, it provides the means of fiscal recovery and of course this relates to the exportation of toxic bits and bytes on commercial import export channels.

      Your deceit that "but mommy everyone does it", is just that a very juvenile deceit, every effort should be made to prosecute, recover costs and apply full penalties for criminal activities.

      How about this as an extension of your idea. Flying body, quad copter aerial mine, with enhanced glide characteristics and upper surface solar panel, armed by reactive metal batteries with oxide opposing pole, where the oxygen can be released to trigger high speed chain reaction combustion (explode). Released from light aircraft at altitude, capable of ranges of fifty or more kilometres and targeted at specific individuals. Released in flights of three, one to break building skin, another to enter seek primary and a third to confirm and achieve secondaries. Any modern country should be able to manufacture and deploy them and the obvious targets politicians that oppose the desires of the deploying country. So as far as I am concerned, a desirable outcome, politicians who fail to diplomatically strive for peace become the primary targets, so when they take actions that lead to war they are the first to die, giving more sound politicians an opportunity. In the case of the US of course they could be targeted more effectively at corporate boardrooms, to ensure executives strive for peace and not war, else they will become the first victims of it.

      Just about any country could deploy them ie Iran vs US oil companies, Russia vs EU Banking Cartels. Most of us would be left out of it as it would only end up targeting those at the top and as a excuse for war very difficult to prove where they come from and really as far as the majority citizens in the targeted nation were concerned there would be real conflict as whether to cheer or frown. So acceptable by your logic or not?

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
  3. Good for the NSA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Flamebait

    Why would you want to open an espionage investigation when the very point of the NSA is espionage? I'm glad that they are using every tool at their disposal to probe our adversaries and potential enemies. I sleep safe at night knowing that my government is doing all it is can to protect my life and my freedom.
    Fuck all these other countries. You can't stop us anyway, we are the mightiest, richest, most powrerful nation on Earth and we do whatever the fuck we want.

    1. Re:Good for the NSA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not sure if retard or troll.

      On the off-chance that anyone actually believes that kind of garbage, no. It is not the NSA's job to spy on allies and neutral parties. It is their job to spy on enemy nations. Espionage is an act of war, and therefor, spying on allies and neutral countries is against international law and violates our treaties with them.

    2. Re:Good for the NSA by Opportunist · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You are aware that the US still kinda depend on international trade, yes? And that said trade in the US is kinda dependent on exporting high tech equipment?

      Now, could you see that this could get mighty complicated if every nation out there starts to distrust everything remotely electronic coming from your place?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    3. Re:Good for the NSA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      citation needed

      Everyone spys on everyone.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Pollard

    4. Re:Good for the NSA by erikkemperman · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Fuck all these other countries. You can't stop us anyway, we are the mightiest, richest, most powrerful nation on Earth and we do whatever the fuck we want.

      And Americans wonder why they have a reputation for being both arrogant and uninformed...

      Ironically, this is exactly what many of the beneficiaries of, um, your foreign policy would love you to do: take all your military kit and, respectfully, piss off.

      The problem is that your trampling on "weaker" nations is kind of a large part of your being "mighty" and rich (well, one marginal fraction of you anyway) and your leaders are unlikely to give that up.

      --
      Gosh, thanks. That must be why the other ships call me Meatfucker -- GCU Grey Area (Eccentric)
    5. Re:Good for the NSA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Germany is an enemy and adversary? I think you living in wrong century. Making everyone pissed off is actually doing the opposite. It reduces freedom (TSA, domestic phone surveillance, etc) and increases danger when someone has had enough bullying.

      And it might be a wakeup call, but your country is almost broke and the GDP of the EU is higher than the US one.
      No other industrial country has so many homeless and poor people per capita than the US. The US can be very happy and grateful that Europe is still an ally of the US. Not an enemy.

      >we do whatever the fuck we want.

      And you still wonder why you have enemies? Behaving like an asshole bully creates the enemies you try to prevent with all that spying.

    6. Re:Good for the NSA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Appeal to popularity.

    7. Re:Good for the NSA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1

      You are aware international trade depends on the US, not the other way around, yes? I guess not because you are one dumb fuck.
      Other nations can distrust anything they wish, but they have not other useful alternatives than to deal with us, they are our bitches.

    8. Re:Good for the NSA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Everyone speeds while driving eventually. Does this suddenly mean that speed laws should be ignored? Laws are in place for a reason. "But everyone else is doing it!" didn't work when you were 13, and it sure as fuck doesn't work when you're an adult.

    9. Re:Good for the NSA by Streetlight · · Score: 1

      Not quite. The situation might be a good business opportunity for countries with high tech capability like Japan, Germany, maybe even Poland. Make the infrastructure hardware that's absolutely unhackable. That might put Cisco, Juniper, Dropbox, MS Azure, etc., out of business.

      --
      In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell
    10. Re:Good for the NSA by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      If your enemies become neutral or allies, that's a bonus, but if your allies turn that's a nasty surprise. So there's a case for keeping a very close eye on your allies.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    11. Re:Good for the NSA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not like we care whether we have fewer enemies or more. We can bomb the fuck out of you if you look even look at us wrong. We are assholes because we can afford be and there is nothing you can do to stop us. The rest of the world must bend over for us and take it and like it.

    12. Re:Good for the NSA by vux984 · · Score: 1

      If your enemies become neutral or allies, that's a bonus, but if your allies turn that's a nasty surprise.

      Doubly nasty when they turn against you precisely because you were spying on them.

      At least it won't be a surprise though... since you were spying on them, so you'll know its coming.

      Allied countries should of course maintain tabs on each other, but it hardly needs to rise to the level of tapping your closest allies cell phones to be effective.

    13. Re:Good for the NSA by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      Which, of course, is a fallacy because NSA is currently very short on popularity.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    14. Re:Good for the NSA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I guess you ask for being wiped out.

    15. Re:Good for the NSA by deadweight · · Score: 1

      Because none of them would ever DREAM of spying on anyone, right? Jesus-On-A-Moped, every nation spies on every other nation to the extend that they can do so and have done for the last few thousand years at least and will likely always do so.

    16. Re:Good for the NSA by jma05 · · Score: 1

      > Other nations can distrust anything they wish, but they have not other useful alternatives than to deal with us, they are our bitches.

      That is true in case of some technologies like chips which are expensive to independently develop for less rich/advanced nations. But a good deal of software stuff is quite replaceable, with minimal pain. There are open source solutions or foreign services that are only slightly behind proprietary or US hosted solutions/services. The current surveillance situation simply incentivizes the alternatives and bridges that gap.

      Peru did an open source requirement for government work some time ago and other governments were looking at similar stuff. Microsoft wrote that famous letter, 12 years ago, defending proprietary companies; something which is quite indefensible now.

      http://opensource.org/docs/msF...

      They simply did not have enough incentives until now. This isn't rocket science; its mainly a policy decision. China is developing its own Linux-based OS and has already replaced western social media services and search engine with its own etc. etc.

      There is already that project that this will cost us $180 Billion in the near future.
      http://blogs.wsj.com/cio/2013/...
      Let's see if it will bear out.

    17. Re:Good for the NSA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So because other nations might spy on enemies, it's OK for the US to spy on allies in a manner that goes against the spirit of treaties and alliances?

    18. Re:Good for the NSA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which treaty or alliance would that be?

    19. Re: Good for the NSA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      0) You just fed the troll. Just ignore that kind of loser idiot... when you feed the troll, the troll wins a little.

      1) Trolls should not be trusted to give you a fair summary of how most Americans think. I for one don't agree with this proposed American policy. But hey, thanks so much for painting all Americans with the same brush.

    20. Re:Good for the NSA by khallow · · Score: 1

      It's a troll. I wouldn't be surprised if the original poster actually gets pouty about "Americans" too and wrote that in some attempt at sarcasm or humor.

    21. Re:Good for the NSA by erikkemperman · · Score: 1

      It's a troll. I wouldn't be surprised if the original poster actually gets pouty about "Americans" too and wrote that in some attempt at sarcasm or humor.

      You, and the AC above, are probably right. Poe's law and all that. Of course the corollary to that law is it doesn't actually work unless there really are people who genuinely believe what is being parodied. That includes some of our beloved moderators, in fact; this troll was at +1 when I replied.

      And from where I am standing that also includes some of people shaping foreign policy, because the "eff you, we can do whatever we want" attitude is pretty much what the US project internationally.

      I appreciate that this is not the opinion of most, or even all that many, Americans. But being a nominal democracy has the flip side that the People have a collective responsibility and accountability for allowing their elected leaders and diplomatic corps to misrepresent them so. This is not a new thing.

      --
      Gosh, thanks. That must be why the other ships call me Meatfucker -- GCU Grey Area (Eccentric)
    22. Re:Good for the NSA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      NATO. Just as a starter

    23. Re:Good for the NSA by ahabswhale · · Score: 1

      lol...I guess PT Barnum was right. There is a sucker born every minute.

      --
      Are agnostics skeptical of unicorns too?
    24. Re:Good for the NSA by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Doubly nasty when they turn against you precisely because you were spying on them.

      Angular Ferkel might be annoyed that they're tapping her phone, but she's pretty unlikely to throw in her lot with that baboon-faced untermensch Putin.

      Seriously. These are senior politicians, not teenagers.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    25. Re:Good for the NSA by vux984 · · Score: 1

      She doesn't have to ally with the Russians, all she has to do is refuse to lift a finger to facilitate some trade dispute; decide to prioritize meetings with diplomats from other countries, not bother to pursue some treaty or other the US thinks is important for it to have an impact.

      Seriously. These are senior politicians, not teenagers.

      Right. Teenagers aren't as corrupt. :-p

      In all seriousness though, they are human beings like the rest of us. They remember favors, and they remember those that have embarrassed them. They may set aside grudges when politically necessary but will absolutely act on them when ever they can 'get away with it'.

  4. @people from the US by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Could someone from the US please tell me and convince me why Germany should still be friends with the USA? 'Cause the USA are certainly NOT behaving like a friend. More like a foe and bully who thinks Germany is an enemy.

    1. Re:@people from the US by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Informative

      The US actually is the schoolyard bully of international politics. Just in case someone hasn't noticed that yet. The US exhibits every behaviour of the classic schoolyard bully. He beats up the weaker kids but does not want to get into a fight with anyone that could stand up for himself. He steals the lunch money from those that can't defend themselves. Or, in a more modern form, the bully "buys" your cellphone for a buck so you can't say he stole it from you. He bought it, see? Same goes for resources, on an international scale. Should a teacher (or the UN) take a stern look at them, they'll start smooching up to them and pretend that they're gonna help the teacher to keep the smaller bullies in reign, and since that's quite comfortable, they'll gladly take that offer.

      International politics and schoolyard politics ain't that different. It's the same shit on a bigger scale, that's all, but the silly billys are the same.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    2. Re:@people from the US by pigiron · · Score: 1

      Cuz' we buy lots of BMW's.

    3. Re:@people from the US by stevez67 · · Score: 1

      When you consider that Germany is doing the same to every country on the planet you begin to understand why this whole Snowden/NSA/Spying thing is not news except to those suffering from terminal naivete. Of course every other country is doing the same ... so at the end of the day it's all equal.

    4. Re:@people from the US by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1

      The US has no interest in being your friend. It never has. You are potentially useful and thus the US acts in a certain way that may seem like it considers you its friend..but rest assured, the minute you are no longer useful you will be treated accordingly.

      The reverse is also true. Germany has no interest in being the US's friend. It wants security and money from the US, that is all.

    5. Re:@people from the US by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Citation needed.

      Yes. Germany has it's intelligence service (called BND. Bundesnachrichtendienst), but it does nowhere the same things with the same scope as what the NSA is doing. Not even close. And in particular not on a supposed ally and friend. Why are you an ally if you can't trust them?

      You are paranoid. You (the US) think that everyone is your enemy. Guess who has the same stance? North Korea.
      And ironically that's exactly what will one day isolate you, like North Korea. Distrusting and bullying everyone will one day make actually everyone your real enemy.

    6. Re:@people from the US by cryptolemur · · Score: 1

      I assume BND has been collaborating with US intellicenge a lot. Now, of course, it appears that anybody in Germany having collaborated with NSA (and it's brethen) or GHCQ should be considered a traitor and be put on trial.

      Really, every European Intelligence Agency should be purged from persons who advocate international cooperation. And purged such a way that several genrations of intelligence people will think twice about "exchanging information".

      Of course, what remains of international terrorism will have (again) grrreat time operating globally, but trust is something we can not afford anymore.

    7. Re:@people from the US by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The time Germany wanted money from the US were about 60 years ago.
      The GDP of Europe is higher than that of the US. And within the EU, Germany is the biggest economic power. Security? Yes. During the cold war. Back in the 60-80s.
      Please tell me again what we want from the US? Except being able to sell our cars.

    8. Re:@people from the US by currently_awake · · Score: 1

      I think this is the major point here, the NSA is a spy data broker that works for others. The Americans don't care what the gov of Germany is doing, but the German security guys very much do.

    9. Re:@people from the US by sumdumass · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Nonsense. WWII could have been completely avoided if we knew about the plans to remilitarizr the rhine before it happened. A german genersl wrote in his diary that if any of the countries party to the treaty of versalles would have enforced the terms of the treaty, germany would have been stopped well before it became a war.

      We now know that Russia tried to colapse the US dollar in 2008 and china took steps to avoid it because of how heavily invested they were at the time. We know sanctions did not work on Iraq leaving war as a likely option because France and Russia exploited the oil for food program to get sweat deals on oil from Iraq in excess of sanctioned amounts with corruption in the UN reaching as far up as the family of Kofi Annan- the then secretary general of the UN (the highest ranking position there).

      Spying on friendly countries is a neccesity. Those counties mrntion were all friendly at the time. Taking actions specifically keeps conflicts to a smaller scale unlike with WWII. You have a lot to learn it would seem. Even your so called comparisons of school yard bullies are off.

    10. Re:@people from the US by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      >WWII could have been completely avoided if we knew about the plans to remilitarizr the rhine before it happened.

      ROFL. The most delusional comment of the day.

      Remind me again why sanction on the Iraq were necessary? And why the 2nd Iraq war was justified. Please say WMD. I want to laugh.

      > France and Russia exploited the oil for food program

      Oh noes! As opposed to the US and the Dick Chaney company who are now exploiting the Iraq and enforcing sweet sweet deals? Pot meet kettle.
       

    11. Re:@people from the US by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1

      Economic Security of the whole EU not just Germany against Russia, because somebody has to do it and it is not Germany.

    12. Re:@people from the US by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      I would thimk taining delusionally ignorant of history would be more funny to people looking at you instead of yourself. But yes, it is a well known fact that Germany violated conditions of their treaty in order to raise the military might before invading other countries.

      And sactions o. Iraq were neccedary because they weren't complying with the terms of the cease fire from the first gulf war.

      I take it you went to public school in the US. I understand why you post AC. I would be embarrased to have you post associate with any online persona associated with me too.

    13. Re:@people from the US by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Someone with such poor orthography and grammar should NEVER doubt the education of others.

    14. Re:@people from the US by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ROFL. Are you mad?
      You know that German's economy is bigger than the russian one?

    15. Re:@people from the US by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      An American talking about corruption in the UN? How rich bearing in Mind the Bush family started two wars to help give lucrative contracts to their friends.

    16. Re:@people from the US by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      Citation needed.

      Seriously? Even Canadians know that the RCMP, CSIS, and CSEC spy friend, foe, even on their own citizens.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    17. Re:@people from the US by MrBigInThePants · · Score: 1

      Your knowledge of history is the one that is flawed.

      It was typical for US pundits to PRAISE the Nazi's for their business acumen and ability to get the population on board with their all encompassing industry and capitalism.

      It was also known that they were building an army but it was politely ignored by the rest of the world.

    18. Re:@people from the US by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Could someone from the US please tell me and convince me why Germany should still be friends with the USA? 'Cause the USA are certainly NOT behaving like a friend. More like a foe and bully who thinks Germany is an enemy.

      World War I and World War II

    19. Re:@people from the US by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Even if what you say is remotely true, which it is not, one of those wars was only possible because of the coruption in the UN.

      And that is rich

    20. Re:@people from the US by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Nothing you said invalidates what i said or contradicts my knowlege of history.

      All you did was state details of what i stated. Perhaps your definition of flawed is different from the rest of the world's.

      Oh, and BTW, the significance of Germany building an army and that being ignored is that the treaty of versalles forbid them from building a military or militarizing their manufacturing sector. If this wasn't ignored, WWII would have been stopped before it happened.

    21. Re:@people from the US by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      -Who are these guys?
      -They are Nazis, from Germany.
      -Great. Now shut up and listen!

    22. Re:@people from the US by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      Re 'The time Germany wanted money from the US were about 60 years ago."
      Yes the NSA help with a new expanding West German telephone and later data network was great for catching East German spies and other groups incompatible with West German democracy.
      What West Germany was very slow to understand was that with the NSA they had many other nations staff, contractors getting all of the same West German communications and political insight over decades for free.
      The GCHQ was very interesting in the West German reaction to the UK entering the EU (Common market), UK Tornado aircraft sales to Germany (NATO).
      All this was sold to West Germany gov as support for work relating to East Germany and other mil issues.
      Only later did Germany seem to finally fully understand why the UK seemed to be so ready for any German export positions or German foreign policy.
      Long term only winners where German staff and contractors keeping the taps/splitters working and US/UK exports.
      The gift of US and UK crypto was secure against East Germany and Soviet Union/Russia in many ways but back to plain text junk over generations just as todays 'internet' experts seem to be finally understanding.
      Other nations understood that all crypto and telco kit they bought was junk but had to be used.
      West/Germany seems to have trusted the crypto and telco junk or had its own experts never question/understand what it was installing.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    23. Re:@people from the US by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes. Germany has it's intelligence service (called BND. Bundesnachrichtendienst), but it does nowhere the same things with the same scope as what the NSA is doing. Not even close.

      And you know this how?

    24. Re:@people from the US by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We're going to need a little more - you're going to have to make your actual point.

    25. Re:@people from the US by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Could someone from the US please tell me and convince me why Germany should still be friends with the USA? 'Cause the USA are certainly NOT behaving like a friend. More like a foe and bully who thinks Germany is an enemy.

      Germany should not be friends with the USA.

      Individual citizens of Germany, on the other hand, should look at individual people and decide whether they are friend-worthy. This includes people living in the U.S. and/or who happened to be born there.

      No government is trustworthy. It is not in their nature. It never has been. It never will be.

      The U.S. government thinks anyone not them is the enemy. This includes its own citizens.

      I understand at some level people are responsible for acts committed by their governments, but you should know that many people in the U.S. think the USA, as a whole, is a bully as well.

      I would say most people here do not care particularly about any of this -- unless it affects their pay check or the well-being of their family, they can not afford nor do they have the time or resources to care about anyone else.

      They aren't necessarily concerned with the rest of the world, but most people aren't actively encouraging such things, that is just the media and the warmongers.

      That is not to say people who DO have resources to change things should sit idly by, but it is more likely they prospered by not caring and not causing trouble for their rulers.

      It is very common in the U.S. that trying to change things is met with ridicule and that anything that someone decides to do that comes from within (rather than being told to do from above) is largely a waste of time, and that you are better off choosing your battles for things you can change.

      The reason things are so bad is people are apathetic and lazy, so the "leaders" do whatever they want with no opposition and noone warning them that treating the world as the enemy is not necessarily the brightest move.

      Any attempt at an intellectual discussion is just distracted away as entertainment. Most people here really think if you have an opinion that differs from what the government is doing, you are just not happy enough, you just need some drugs, you need to get laid, you are just not positive enough. They mean well in their idiocy. Can you blame them for giving up?

      Don't trust the U.S.A. -- the majority of people here will never care what their government is up to, nor could they afford to even if they wanted to.

      If it makes you feel better, the majority of the U.S. is NOT eagerly advancing such things, they are just scraping by and cannot afford to care. Whether they care or not doesn't matter -- what are they going to do? Not pay taxes and go to jail? Go protest for a month and come back to no job? Ditch their kids and family?

      In summary: the U.S.A. is a mess of divergent ideals and opinions and goals. It is anything but United. That is fiction and always has been. The people crying for unity are the ones who just waged war, that is how it always goes, anywhere.

      Germany should not trust the U.S.A.

      U.S. citizens should not trust it either. That is the whole point of this country, and supposedly what made it different. Contrary to revisionist history by those who would prefer everyone shut up and trust them.

    26. Re:@people from the US by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Anyone who defends government thugs is an asshole. Freedom and privacy are what matters, not safety. If you want 'safety', move to North Korea and see what government can do for you. Libertarians are the only ones who care about freedom, it seems.

    27. Re:@people from the US by KeensMustard · · Score: 1

      I think of the US more as the star player who has gone to seed, and is only now just starting to realise it. He still think of himself as the hero of the team (and indeed, his skills are still exemplary - not what they used to be, but nothing to laugh at either). But nowadays, fitness is not what it should be, too many nights out, too many scandals, too many occasions where his friends had to hush up some indiscretion or other.

    28. Re: @people from the US by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      WWII happened because Germany was humiliated after WWI by none other than Great Britain and France at the helm. Some age-old caveman insecurities manifesting yet again.

      Germany was humiliated, this gave ample room for someone who invented the guilty party (Jews, other nations) and a motive to fix it (Aryan race, Greatness of German folk) and who could with these get enough people to back him up for some payback time.

      I guess you know who I am talking about.

    29. Re: @people from the US by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      I don't really care that they were humiliated. Part of the terms for ending WWI was restrictions on Germany's military and their military industry. If those restrictions would have been enforced indtead of ignored, germany could never have became a powerhouse that it did and there wouldn't have been a war that consummed most of Europe, northern africa, or the baltic states and Russia.

      All we are doing is dancing with the same facts. You are focused on the why and i'm saying if we didn't allow them to gain the capabilities, the wouldn't have had the ability to make war on a world scale. WWII wouldn't have happened.

      Now war may have happened. But the scale, death, damage, and destruction would have been greatly reduced. The coordinated power of the axis would have either not existed or been severely limited.

    30. Re:@people from the US by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      When you are ignorant of history, you are doomed to making the same mistakes. I never said anything about the greatness of government. I said when we ignore others we historically have regreted it.

      You post seems to be includimg a lot that was never said. If you want to keep that fantasy, stick with ready fiction and let the adults converse

    31. Re:@people from the US by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And you know this how?

      Budget of the NSA? Budget of the BND?

    32. Re: @people from the US by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      It was exactly that attitude that made WW2 possible in the first place. If you tried to outlaw German rearmament, they would just have ignored you. Now what? You are a democracy and you cannot motivate your population for yet another war. Right until before WW2, neither France nor England wanted to go to war. And it took Pearl Harbor to give Roosevelt finally enough backing in Congress and population to go to war.

      And that is pretty much what actually happened. German rearmed and nobody gave a shit. Yeah, in hindsight it's easy to say "Oh we should have avoided them rearming". Sure. And I'm pretty sure you wouldn't have to look far to find a majority for slapping Hitler left and right, no matter in what country you ask. Including Germany, I reassure you of that. But back then no country leader that actually cared about German rearming had the backing in the population to do anything against it! It's easy now to say "but they should not have been allowed to rearm". Great. And then? What if they do? Well, kick them in the nuts, I hear you say. Great. Who? You? Your country? Or can't someone else do it? Because yeah, everyone would have loved if Germany didn't rearm, but everyone was fucking broke. Too broke to actually build up an army, especially with a population that was vehemently anti-war. You think you would have survived one single election with a program that not only wants to pump a lot of not available money into the military, but also a lot of non-willing people?

      Not allowing something requires you to have the power to disallow it. You don't have that. Don't worry, France said no. Germany just replied with a "fuck you".

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    33. Re: @people from the US by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Lol.. i'm not disputing how history played out. I'm saying that a minor change- one that would cause you to label a country a bully- would have made a huge difference in how it played out.

      Spying on allies as well as adversaries, taking actions before they turn into another world war or perhaps even a significant war is what you call being a bully. Getting reelected is insignificant to doing the right thing. This is how you can tell the real leaders from the snake charmers. Although sometimes it takes some time to sort the truth from fiction and do an honest evaluation.

    34. Re:@people from the US by ahabswhale · · Score: 1

      Well until there's a German version of Snowden, we don't know what the BND is doing. That said, it's an extremely safe bet they spy on the US because there is no treaty between the two countries that makes it illegal.

      --
      Are agnostics skeptical of unicorns too?
    35. Re: @people from the US by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Getting reelected is insignificant to doing the right thing. This is how you can tell the real leaders from the snake charmers.

      I have to wonder whether we had a real leader in the last century or so...

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    36. Re: @people from the US by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      I think we found something we agree on. There were a couple good starts ig seemed. But that may have just been me trying go find the good in people before i get to know them very well.

    37. Re: @people from the US by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      The red guy from downstairs called, he said it's getting mighty cold in his place... :)

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  5. Everyone Spies.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Get used to it.. Stop being butthurt and increase your security.

    1. Re:Everyone Spies.. by geekbastard · · Score: 2

      Get used to it.. Stop being butthurt and increase your security.

      That ranks right up there with 'if you've got nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear'.

    2. Re:Everyone Spies.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the USA and UK can hack into your systems, so can Russia, China, Iran, North Korea, etc.

    3. Re:Everyone Spies.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So? Russia, China, Iran, North Korea etc don't pretend they're the most free country in the world who wouldn't do anything bad.

  6. Let's hear about the exceptions for once by axlash · · Score: 1, Insightful

    It's kind of getting old hearing about the latest spying activity of the NSA.

    It would be more interesting to hear who they're *not* spying on these days.

    --
    Deal with reality - the world as it is - rather than ideality - the world as you would like it to be.
    1. Re:Let's hear about the exceptions for once by lennier1 · · Score: 1

      It would be more interesting to hear who they're *not* spying on these days.

      A much shorter list like that would certainly save a lot of time.

  7. Putin got it right by roscocoltran · · Score: 4, Informative

    Following the shutdown of services from Mastercard and Visa in Russia, he is pushing for a russian payment system. At least he is facing his responsibilities, not like european leaders who, even facing the evidence that they are spied, won't do anything and still rely on US products.

    We must ban Cisco equipment and Microsoft/Apple systems from our governments offices, once and for all. There are alternative solutions available, let's develop them, let's deploy them. Before, there was a risk. Now there is a fact. So what are we waiting for ?

    1. Re:Putin got it right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Inertia. Developing everything from the ground up, including CPUs, GPUs and network chips, and then replace the whole infrastructure with EU made stuff is simply one enormous pain in the ass. And prohibitory expensive. Private companies are risk averse due to the red tape and limited market and the governments are idiots and incompetent at managing it. As every single IT project throughout Europe will demonstrate.

    2. Re:Putin got it right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Private companies are risk averse due to the red tape and limited market

      Private companies are averse to spending their own money to make it. What they really want is money gifted to them by customers, government, and employees.

      Example: at my current place of work, they get regular - significant - grants to make local programming, they were just gifted more than a million dollars to keep broadcasting, and they accidentally underpay their minimum wage employees to make their budget. They also refuse to pay their salaried employees anything for overtime.

      My previous place of work required a minimum of 50 hours a week, but only paid for 40. They also engaged in insurance fraud, onselling second hand equipment that had been written off simply because the owner decided he needed to make some money.

    3. Re:Putin got it right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And you never considered to report them to the authorities???

      Why?

  8. Time for DOXing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And put all of these fuckers from the NSA and GCHQ inside a huge "public" database. Not editing any names for once, no matter the consequences.

  9. Spies spying? by H0p313ss · · Score: 1

    I'm shocked. SHOCKED!

    Seriously, WTF did you THINK they were doing exactly?

    --
    XML is a known as a key material required to create SMD: Software of Mass Destruction
    1. Re:Spies spying? by khasim · · Score: 4, Informative

      GOVERNMENT spies who are spying on POTENTIAL ENEMY GOVERNMENTS are okay.

      GOVERNMENT spies who are spying on ALLIES are not okay.

      GOVERNMENT spies who are spying on PRIVATE companies in allied nations are not okay.

      And before you get to the next part I'll just say that GOVERNMENT spies who are spying on CITIZENS of that government are also not okay.

    2. Re:Spies spying? by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      GOVERNMENT spies who are spying on POTENTIAL ENEMY GOVERNMENTS are okay.

      ALL governments are potential enemy governments.

      BLOCKQUOTE>GOVERNMENT spies who are spying on ALLIES are not okay.

      Let's see. First the Brits were our enemies and the French were our friends.

      Then the Brits were our enemies and the French were our enemies too.

      Later on, the Brits were our friends, the French were our friends, and the Germans were our friends. And the Japanese didn't think much of us.

      Then the Brits were our friends, the French were our friends, the Russians were our friends, the Japanese were our friends, and the Germans were our enemies.

      Then the Russians became our enemies, and the Germans became our friends.

      Then the Russians became our friends (in the Atlantic), our enemies (in the Pacific), the Japanese became our enemies, and the Germans became our enemies

      Then the Russians became our enemies and the Germans and Japanese became our friends.

      Then the Russians became our friends.

      Then the Russians became our enemies.

      I won't even get into Italy, Austria, and China.

      TL;DR - friends change into enemies and vice versa. Spy on everyone, so you won't be surprised when friends become enemies.

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    3. Re:Spies spying? by Arker · · Score: 1

      "Spy on everyone, so you won't be surprised when friends become enemies."

      Yes, spy on your friends, that way you can *guarantee* they will eventually become enemies No more surprises!

      Yeah, but there is a downside here, can you see it?

      --
      =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
      Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
  10. This shocks people??? by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1, Insightful

    So, the NSA is doing foreign signals intelligence, eh?

    As it is mandated by law to do...

    Somehow, I can't get really excited that the NSA is actually doing its job. And yes, spying on foreign leaders is part of the job of the NSA, as it is for EVERY espionage organization in history....

    --

    "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    1. Re:This shocks people??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Everyone knows nations spy on each other. The problem is, this is a case where you spy on your BFF - another NATO member. Someone you promise to defend if they get attacked.

      In this world we only have 1 thing that we rely on. We *trust* each other to follow the law. We *trust* each other to behave properly. Once that trust is not there, then what do we really have?

      There are two ways to violate this trust principle. One is for A party to renege on their obligations - ie. lie to party B. The other way is for party B to illustrate to party A that they do not trust them in the first place - ie. spying on them. In other words, if A and B are married, how long do you think that marriage will last if B is sending private detectives to snoop on A?

      Why do you think CIA and NSA were not suppose to spy on US citizens? *trust* is the reason. If the gov't doesn't trust its citizens, there is a big, big problem.

    2. Re:This shocks people??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No the NSA is using it's war powers to engage in insider trading and economic espionage on the behalf of American political and corporate interests. This isn't simple corruption when officials abuse the power of their office. The NSA has been given war powers, misuse like this is treason.

    3. Re:This shocks people??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And your meh attitude is exactly what America will get in return from the world when your country goes completely to shit. Enjoy.

    4. Re:This shocks people??? by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      The question is what Germany, the Netherlands, France, Belgium and Denmark signed up for when sharing their nations telco systems in bulk with the UK and USA.
      A one way deal with Germany, the Netherlands, France, Belgium and Denmark getting extra support in other mil areas vs the USA and UK looking at lucrative trade deals?
      Now German private interest and firms with world wide contracts have to face the reality of their own German gov actively, over generations working against German exports, technical secrets and export creating creativity.
      Even German political leaders are handed junk crypto phones by their own gov experts and telco firms, totally open to 5 other nations, a few more nations friendly to the USA and contractors.
      What can Germany do? The crypto standards it uses to stay in the international marketplace are junk, its own top crypto and telco experts are more friendly other nations staff. German trade negotiations and weapons sales, energy deals are open to many other nations leaders and random cleared staff during negotiations.
      The good news is Germany bands seem to be going for huge longterm global exports rather than falling for short term NATO political games.
      Groups within NATO and the US playing color revolution vs German brands need for raw materials and global export markets.
      Over the years German firms seem to have understood not to say too much on junk telco networks, avoid provided conference/office space and seem to be wining more long term exports.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    5. Re:This shocks people??? by Arker · · Score: 1

      Spying on a nation we are at war with? Spying on their military capabilities? Ok, that would be part of their job description.

      Spying on allied nations? Commercial and political espionage? Not the same thing. Not at all.

      Shocked? Not I, not anymore. But folks that still believe the state can do what it's told, not so much.

      --
      =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
      Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
    6. Re:This shocks people??? by lonOtter · · Score: 1

      This shocks people???

      Why do we have to be shocked? I wasn't shocked when Snowden 'revealed' the NSA's domestic spying. I wasn't shocked when the DMCA passed. I wasn't shocked when the government took over airports and started molesting anyone who wanted to get on a plane. I'm not shocked that our government spies on friendly countries. The notion that people in power cannot be trusted is not shocking to me in the least. I do not get shocked; I get angry.

      --
      [End Of Line]
  11. Futile gesture by Hognoxious · · Score: 2

    Better safe than sorry, I reckon. Wouldn't want them to bomb Pearl Harbor again.

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    1. Re: Futile gesture by Type44Q · · Score: 2
      Are you sure about that? It's quite clear from the historical record that that's exactly what "we" wanted then (the Axis were extremely reluctant to drag the "sleeping giant" into the war, at least until we forced their hand in Indonesia) and it's well understood that Washington had advance knowledge of the impending attack at Pearl and didn't warn the Fleet...

      Do you really think things have changed so much that T.P.T.B. would be able to resist another opportunity to manipulate our nationalistic sensibilities so effectively? Me thinks not. ;)

    2. Re: Futile gesture by Maritz · · Score: 2

      and it's well understood that Washington had advance knowledge of the impending attack at Pearl and didn't warn the Fleet...

      I used to think that. Then I found out it was bollocks. Both the knowledge, and it being 'well understood'.

      --
      I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
    3. Re: Futile gesture by Smauler · · Score: 1

      It is bollocks. Without pearl harbour, and Germany invading Russia, the war would have been a lot closer, because the US and the USSR would not have been on the right side.

    4. Re: Futile gesture by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You would be wrong

      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/8932197/Pearl-Harbour-memo-shows-US-warned-of-Japanese-attack.html

    5. Re: Futile gesture by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There was a deliberate ignorance of warning signs and early warnings of the attack (quelched by th chain of command) on that very day. Just like 9/11.

      If that is a conspiracy is up to you.

    6. Re: Futile gesture by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Read past the headline of that link - you are wrong about him being wrong.

      There's a big difference between 'advance warning of *the* attack' and a discussion of possibilities.

    7. Re: Futile gesture by ZahrGnosis · · Score: 1

      There were too MANY warning signs... half the world was already at war, and it's very unlikely that the signal of any legitimate intel that Pearl Harbor was about to happen could have risen above the noise of everything else the intel community had to keep up with at that time. How many incorrect tips and hints do you think came through, and to whom, and from whom? It's easy to find that needle in a haystack with 70 years of hindsight, but at the time, with everyone gathering intel but without the technology we have today for ferreting out useful information, I doubt it was possible to give any real warning. Besides, any attack on our land would have brought us into the war... if a conspiracy truly wanted that, then they could have given just enough warning to still witness the attack, but be alert enough to not cripple our navy and waste a huge percent of our might going into the war.

      Getting back on topic, though, this IS why modern spy agencies exist. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if everyone we spy on is fairly cognizant of it without Snowden's revelations (which, I still point out, are going far beyond the "exposing domestic spying" that is the core of his defense). When Obama was quoted in his "All nations collect intelligence" comment about people knowing what he has for breakfast, I think he was conceding that other countries, even allies, keep abreast of our leadership's activities through all means necessary. Is that right? I don't know... some of it depends on the methods and some on how deeply we go even when that leadership is trying to be private, and how much we truly share about these activities with our allies. That is, while it may be easy to know what the president had for breakfast, and while we may not even mind that that information gets out, it should be difficult to know what he discusses in the situation room or the oval office with doors closed. Snowden provides no context, no background, and no well-balanced research that traditional journalism should provide, and he and his information are losing a lot of credibility, at least with me, in so doing. Of COURSE we collect information on foreign leadership. So does the entire media population. If a crisis breaks out you can bet that some reporters will know exactly how to get hold of any leader they want to almost immediately.

      From the article, it's clear that whatever documentation Snowden provided is not sufficient to prove anything, and even if it were a red-handed case (which it's not), there's still the possibility that it was done with some level of consent or coordination with Germany. The US, Germany, and Britain do actually have pretty strong diplomatic ties... something also confirmed by Snowden (http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/nov/01/gchq-europe-spy-agencies-mass-surveillance-snowden). A quid-pro-quo trading of this sort of information isn't out of the question, and could certainly make the legal aspect more difficult to unravel. This stuff is all far from black and white.

    8. Re: Futile gesture by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      People in Washington were sure an attack was coming, but they didn't know when or where. Ten days before the Pearl Harbor attack, the Army and Navy sent separate messages to the commanders in the Pacific warning of imminent attack. Some commanders, like in the Canal Zone, were as prepared as they could get.

      The Japanese sent a message to be delivered to the US Secretary of State at a particular time, and there was an effort to warn Pearl Harbor about it, but for technical reasons the message arrived after the attack had started.

      While there were no US carriers at Pearl, this could not have been predicted. USS Enterprise was supposed to be in port at that time, but was delayed a day due to weather.

      There was probably enough evidence to conclude that there was an attack planned on Pearl Harbor, but that would have required an office that took in information and cross-checked details, which really didn't exist at the time in the US. The Secretary of War established one in early 1942 to try to prevent future Pearl Harbors. (The Japanese at least transmitted, in a code the US was reading, enough orders to make it clear that a carrier task force intended to attack battleships was headed in the general direction of Pearl Harbor, if enough of the orders had been put together. Since the only Allied battleships in theater were at Singapore and Pearl Harbor, it would have been possible to predict the attack reasonably well.)

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  12. Shocking it's not as if there was a resason ? by Crashmarik · · Score: 4, Informative

    http://articles.chicagotribune...
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I...

    So people are upset about the NSA spying on companies and a country that was willing to look the other way on some very questionable practices ?

    A little reality check here. George Washington was one of our first spymasters,
      http://www.amazon.com/George-W...
    And the value of intelligence information to our well being has not decreased one bit since the revolution.

  13. Wait - you think they don't? by Overzeetop · · Score: 4, Informative

    Who in the world thinks that Russia DOESN'T spy on the US and GB (and France and Germany and everyone else for that matter). FFS - we ALL do it to everybody else.

    This is like complaining that farts stink, and somebody just found out that we left a beige cloud in the restroom. Somebody light a match, close the door, and get on with it. In polite society you hold your breath and pretend like nothing happened, because the next time the remains of the burrito might be yours.

    --
    Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    1. Re:Wait - you think they don't? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Popularity makes everything okay!

    2. Re:Wait - you think they don't? by Smauler · · Score: 2

      Spying on friends is generally seen as poor form.

      Now, you could argue that the US and Germany are not friends, but the politicians would argue they were. You could argue the US and Russia were friends, but then you'd be wrong.

      The problem with the entire US mentality of "it's fine to spy on other nations" is that GCHQ is British, and has the same idea, and shares their information _on you_ with your intelligence services, and anyone else who wants to know.

      It's not fine.

    3. Re:Wait - you think they don't? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Governments spying on other governments doesn't bother me even a little. Governments should spy on other governments...it's just part of how things are. Government A wants to know something about government B and then they "authorize" somebody to go find out. Nothing wrong with that. My guess would be that the US is the most spied on country in the world because the decisions made here have a lot of impact in other countries sometimes. And, to me, that's completely fine and pretty much how it should be.

      Like this story for example:

      http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/07/08/AR2010070803476.html

      They caught our spies, we caught theirs, and we just exchanged...no harm, no foul.

      Governments spying on regular people though is a totally different ball game and needs to be stopped no matter what country it's in.

    4. Re:Wait - you think they don't? by purpledinoz · · Score: 1

      The NSA is using terrorism as an excuse for industrial espionage, which then is probably then used to further enrich the already wealthy. I wouldn't be surprised if the NSA is spying for Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan to get inside information so they can trade accordingly. This would at least be consistent with the pattern of using tax payer's money to enrich a few people.

    5. Re:Wait - you think they don't? by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

      Spying on friends is generally seen as poor form.

      So is farting at a social event.

      Unless you're doing it maliciously and overtly, and disrupting the general flow of the dance, it's not something to get upset about.

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    6. Re:Wait - you think they don't? by ahabswhale · · Score: 1

      There is no evidence that the NSA has participated in any such thing. Snowden accused them of industrial espionage but I have yet to see a single leak that confirms it. If it were happening, Der Spiegel would have released it already.

      --
      Are agnostics skeptical of unicorns too?
    7. Re: Wait - you think they don't? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Great seer of things... What does the EU do?

      Did Snowden define them as an economic union?

  14. Don't tell my wife... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ......that I've been carrying on an affair with Rachel from Cardholder Services. Pretty please, Mr. NSA man?

    Seriously, how the fuck did they manage to miss 9/11, LIBOR rigging, the Boston Marathon bombing, etc.? Are they spending too much time on Yahoo Chat and Second Life? Or are they incompetent?

  15. Mass indiscriminate surveillance isn't the NSAs jo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So then your all for foreign governments spying on everyone in the US government and doing mass surveillance on all US citizens right? They are just doing their job after all.

  16. US has committed act of war by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Spying against security threats is one thing. Spying against everyone is an act of war and human rights violation. Even the US government itself views spying on its citizens and government as an act of aggression.

    1. Re:US has committed act of war by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, please, spare us the self-righteous blather.

      If Europe seriously considers this is an "act of war", European governments are welcome to test that theory. A good start would be to draft morons like you.

  17. Criminal illegal surveillance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Those in the NSA that authorized mass surveillance are criminals. The only reason why they are not in jail for a gross violation of not only the privacy rights of foreigners but even US citizens, is because the government is behaving like a bunch of unprincipled communist thugs. Without prosecution of thr massive number of privacy offenses committed by the NSA no one should trust US technology to protect their privacy-- not even Americans.

    1. Re:Criminal illegal surveillance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But they had a court order so it's legal, if you don't like it move to Europe with all the whining pussies.

    2. Re:Criminal illegal surveillance by lonOtter · · Score: 1

      Not all court orders are legal, ignoramus. If the judicial branch goes against the constitution, all that means is that they're complicit in the crimes against the American people.

      --
      [End Of Line]
    3. Re:Criminal illegal surveillance by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Okay, so how much of what the NSA did is clearly unconstitutional? The Fourth Amendment says the government may not do unreasonable searches and seizures. The NSA, AFAIK, seized nothing. It took as much metadata as it could about emails, but is that unreasonable? It's like noting down addresses at the Post Office, in that the routing data cannot be private. They recorded the contents of the emails automatically, with no human seeing them except under court order (and individual employees breaking the law and frequently getting away with it). They weakened the security of US cryptosystems, but I don't see anything in the Constitution about that.

      In short, while I consider some NSA actions to be heinous, and likely violating various laws, I don't see anything specific that was clearly unconstitutional.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    4. Re:Criminal illegal surveillance by lonOtter · · Score: 1

      The Fourth Amendment says the government may not do unreasonable searches and seizures. The NSA, AFAIK, seized nothing.

      If you were going to use lawyer logic, you shouldn't have bothered replying. If this sort of technology had been used against the founding fathers, it would have been unconstitutional.

      It took as much metadata as it could about emails, but is that unreasonable?

      Yes.

      It's like noting down addresses at the Post Office

      No, it's not. You cannot compare data to mail. The actual data is no less private than the "metadata" (*Which is just data!*), so why not collect that, too? How is that any more private? It isn't; not in the case of data. I expect that data that is sent over the Internet (Whether it's deemed "metadata" or not.) be left alone by worthless government thugs; I want it to be private from them. I do not expect that no one reads the text on the front of mail.

      They recorded the contents of the emails automatically, with no human seeing them except under court order

      Doing something automatically doesn't make anything better. Tons of malware operates automatically, but that doesn't make it okay. My privacy and the constitution are being violated regardless of whether humans are reading the data (not "metadata").

      As for court orders, that court is just a piece of shit rubberstamping court. Fuck them.

      --
      [End Of Line]
    5. Re:Criminal illegal surveillance by lonOtter · · Score: 1

      If this sort of technology had been used against the founding fathers, it would have been unconstitutional.

      Or rather, its unconstitutionality would have been more explicit. In any case, it's still pretty damn clear that it's unconstitutional to gather everyone's communications, if you care at all about the spirit of the constitution. Comparing data to mail isn't going to help.

      --
      [End Of Line]
  18. I should hope so by stenvar · · Score: 0

    German companies are some of the biggest arms dealers in the world and have sold arms to regimes that are hostile to the US. Likewise, you'd expect German satellite data providers and German financial service providers to do business with groups that are hostile to the US. And German governments have been trying to make trade deals and agreements that harm the US. The German government itself was monitoring many of its parliamentarians for anti-democratic communist activities, and Germany is a hotbed of Neo-Nazi activities. So, I would very much hope that US intelligence services are keeping a tab on the activities of both German private companies and the German government.

    1. Re:I should hope so by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

      German companies are some of the biggest arms dealers in the world and have sold arms to regimes that are hostile to the US.

      Nice joke.

    2. Re:I should hope so by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Germany is a hotbed of Neo-Nazi activity by German definitions. Hint: The US republican party would be instantly banned in Germany for being right-wing extremists.

    3. Re:I should hope so by AHuxley · · Score: 2

      Germany lags the USA and Russia in arms sales. Even the numbers can be tricky with smaller nations e.g. the UK firms doing very well out of US needs during the occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A...

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    4. Re:I should hope so by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't know what you're talking about. German Neo-Nazis are physically violent, extremely racist, and glorify Hitler. There are entire regions in Germany where it is not safe for a person of color or even a Turk to travel.

    5. Re:I should hope so by stenvar · · Score: 1

      Germany lags the USA and Russia in arms sales.

      We aren't playing a game of "who is morally superior". We're talking about whether the US has a reasonable national security interest in spying on Germany, and it does, as long as Germany remains a large exporter of advanced weapon systems.

    6. Re:I should hope so by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      West/Germany opened its telco system up the NSA, GCHQ - with that would have come very few conditions - Germany would not spy on the US and UK.
      The US would help Germany with a few unrelated mil projects and other systems or hardware.
      Germany knew it was a one way agreement but to have German staff supporting junk encryption and help track German firms is getting to be a hard sell.
      German political leaders have to work out if they want to share conversations with 5++ other nations and their contractors. Or will German political leaders support German jobs, German energy needs, exports, needed imports and German entrepreneurship long term.
      The US can go on selling the junk encryption and offering mil support. Sooner or later other nations will do their own math and wonder what lost trade deals are worth vs shared access to some results of global junk encryption.
      Will the German brands that lost huge long term deals have a say this time around or will the German telcos win again?

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    7. Re:I should hope so by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It doesn't matter whether Germany (or Europe) agrees to it or likes it, the fact remains that the US has a compelling interest in spying on European nations because they are major weapons exporters and engage in anti-competitive behavior.

      And I wouldn't hold my breath for European nations to change course. All this self-righteous indignation is to play to domestic audiences and of no real consequence.

    8. Re:I should hope so by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      "agrees to it or likes it" is kind of hard to work via German telcos without local support. Long term its down to the elected political leaders of Germany to ponder their exports role.
      As for other "exporters" you may recall http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L... or
      Domestic audiences in the EU want their value added high skilled export jobs. They are tired of seeing their very public expensive trade missions return empty handed.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    9. Re:I should hope so by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And they are very small in numbers and entire regions is hyperbole at it's finest. They have some strongholds, yes. Tiny villages. Nothing more.
      And their remaining parties are close to bankruptcy. First steps have been made to actually outlaw the only actual relevant political party.
      So Germany in it's entirety is not a hotbed for Nazis. There are a few cancer cells though.

    10. Re:I should hope so by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "agrees to it or likes it" is kind of hard to work via German telcos without local support. Long term its down to the elected political leaders of Germany to ponder their exports role.

      You don't seriously believe the US needs the cooperation of German telcos to spy on German politicians.

      As for other "exporters" you may recall or Domestic audiences in the EU want their value added high skilled export jobs. They are tired of seeing their very public expensive trade missions return empty handed.

      Of course, Europeans want to continue to steal from the rest of the world, like they did for centuries prior to WWII. If European missions still had the power to impose those trade agreements on others, they would, because they are the same kind of immoral slimeballs Europe has always sent off to impose its will on the rest of the world. Fortunately, the US has put a stop to that, and no amount of European bellyaching is going to change that.

  19. everything such a big fauxking secret by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    phony does as phony is; The court request said “the FBI made more than one visit to talk with Anzor, Zubeidat [Dzhokhar and Tamerlan’s parents] and Tamerlan, question Tamerlan about his internet searches, and asked him to be an informant, reporting on the Chechen and Muslim community,” as quoted by WBUR Boston. http://rt.com/usa/fbi-tsarnaev-informant-boston-bombing-001/

  20. Ban US tech companies from government use by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Since the US government seems to force companies to put in backdoors, any rational foreign government would ban some US tech products from critical government use where privacy is a priority. (not to mention the only way the mass NSA surveillance will end is if US companies are hit hard which will make them push back much harder than they have done till Snowden revalations)

    Complete ban of following US tech products for secure government use (and any large company that doesn't want its critical data on NSA servers)
    ---
    Microsoft (OS, MS SQL DB)
    Apple (OS and hardware backdoors)
    Oracle (Java and DB)
    Cisco (All networking products)
    Plus any other US company that produces networking, close source operating system, or database products should have the product in question banned.

    Highly suspect companies whose products should only be used for non-critical use or non-networked use
    ---
    Google
    Yahoo
    Facebook
    Intel (processors have have probability of hardware backdoors)
    AMD (processors have have probability of hardware backdoors)
    IBM (mainframes and mainframe OS)
    Adobe (flash and pdf products)
    HP
    SAP
    (insert any large US tech company here)

    1. Re:Ban US tech companies from government use by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      SAP is a german company. JFYI.

  21. @anyone that believes privacy is a human right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Unless their is political and economic fallout towards US, nothing will change. The US government (not to be confused with average Americans, most of whom hate what their government is doing) will keep spying.

    Real change would require:

    - Boycott of US tech products from critical government US in other nations.
    - Some in the NSA need to be put in prison. It will make others question what they are doing (rather than just say they were following orders)
    - The NSA is too corrupt to be salvageable. It should be completely dissolved and replaced with a new organization with far better public oversight
    - US laws need to be changed that make it clear that its criminal offense to use mass surveillance either domestically or on foreigners
    - International treaties need to be created that make it clear which forms of spying are a violation of human rights (because all the NSA is the best at it, they aren't the only ones doing it)

  22. But when by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... that's exactly what will one day isolate you ...

    It's kind of difficult to isolate them when everybody buys their currency, their hardware/software, their music/movies. Look at the creation of the TSA: How many countries refused to hand over passenger lists of their citizens? How many countries refused to participate in the no-fly lists? How many countries refused to upgrade their security to expensive body scanners? OK, it took 10 years for some countries to obey the USA, but now, all leaders of allied countries have their hands around their ankles

  23. If I were them.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I wouldn't upset Germany too much.... you know....all green and everything....but can still put some fuckers in line if they need to....

  24. @petty people by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Could someone from the US please tell me and convince me why Germany should still be friends with the USA?

    Because it is in Germany's best interest to to be friends with the US.

    Germany has bigger issues to worry about... Current economic issues trump this, as does the expansion of Russia into Europe.

  25. hmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yes they might at some point in the future.

    But there's proof that NSA has already tried pushíng backdoors / vulnerabilities on american electronics designers / manufacturers. Anyway it's healthy for the market with more international actors.