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Famous Paintings Help Study the Earth's Past Atmosphere

houghi (78078) writes "From European Geosciences Union: 'A team of Greek and German researchers has shown that the colours of sunsets painted by famous artists can be used to estimate pollution levels in the Earth's past atmosphere. In particular, the paintings reveal that ash and gas released during major volcanic eruptions scatter the different colours of sunlight, making sunsets appear more red.' The original paper can be found here. In the last 150 years, the sunsets have become redder, likely reflecting increased man-made pollution."

27 of 126 comments (clear)

  1. Stars have also gotten smaller. by generic_screenname · · Score: 5, Funny

    At least, according to Van Gogh.

    1. Re:Stars have also gotten smaller. by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 3, Funny

      At least they are not rectangular anymore, as they used to be in the cubist era. Imagine the weather changes caused by a non-isotropic rotating Sun! I imagine the only reason why they didn't complain and got used to it was because WW I and the post-war depression were worse.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
  2. artistic licence... by buzzsawddog · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Because we know they never used artistic license to paint something that is less than realistic...

    1. Re:artistic licence... by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 3, Interesting

      . . . so let me take a quick look at my works from Mark Rothko, Jackson Pollock, Roy Lichtenstein and Rene Magritte . . .

      Rothko - There's pollution in the atmosphere, but it gives you a warm, fuzzy feeling.

      Pollock - The world's fucked.

      Lichtenstein - The atmosphere is comical.

      Magritte - The sky looks fine . . . but it is in the face of a scary looking guy in a black suit.

      Science and art . . . quite a powerful combination! What do creationist believe about the world's atmosphere . . . did God create it polluted? Or did it start with that eviction deal over a terms of use dispute with the Garden of Eden . . . ?

      --
      Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
    2. Re:artistic licence... by bluegutang · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And because we know artists from past centuries had access to exactly the same paints and color ranges that we do today...

    3. Re:artistic licence... by s.petry · · Score: 3, Interesting

      This!!

      One of my many studies in life has been art. I paint in oils and acrylics, and even took a few college courses. Very few painters are "realists" and even back 3000 years ago we knew about how to use colors for effect, not realism.

      Sure, sculpting was one of those things where the ancient Greek artists tried to be as realistic as possible. At the same time, paintings of Hermes and Zeus indicate that not everything required the same level of realism (unless of course someone wishes to argue that the Ancient Greeks "saw" their gods.). Trying to measure the atmosphere based on pictures of Hermes seems pretty silly to me.

      Lets also not forget that even with realism, many things can give the sunset or sunrise in a nice red hue (storm on the horizon anyone?). The pollution in the atmosphere is just one of countless things that could cause the sky to have a red hue. I really hope that people are not calling this "science".

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    4. Re:artistic licence... by s.petry · · Score: 2

      You should have had Dali there too.

      Dali - The world is full of hidden vaginas

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    5. Re:artistic licence... by DerekLyons · · Score: 2

      And we know that pigments and binders are completely stable across decades and centuries...

    6. Re:artistic licence... by Sardaukar86 · · Score: 2

      Dali - The world is full of hidden vaginas

      Geiger - The world is full of not-at-all-hidden vaginas

      --
      ..Mullah or Pope, Preacher or Poet, who was it wrote: "Give any one species too much rope and they'll fuck it up"?
  3. Clutching at straws by LongearedBat · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The climate debate is pretty much settled: humans are responsible for (at least) most of the current climate shock.

    But this is just silly. Art is subjective, even for the artist. And even if all artists always painted with perfect colours that don't change over time, artists don't paint sunsets on a regular basis, but rather irregularly, such as when they're extra pretty.

    This sort of study makes AGW proponents look desperate, and that's not a good way to convince people who prefer to stick their heads in the sand.

    1. Re:Clutching at straws by Stumbles · · Score: 3, Insightful
      "... the existence of those striking sunsets is, in itself, often a sign of artificial or natural pollution altering the sunsets."

      Or just their fucking imagination, geesh what mental gyrations "scientists" and the holy believers will go through to "support" their religion.

      --
      My karma is not a Chameleon.
    2. Re:Clutching at straws by Immerman · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Climate change is a scientific proposition, and has absolutely nothing to do with "literature", unless you're referring to research papers that have been peer-reviewed and repeated by others. In which case the overwhelmingly consensus is that yes, fossil fuel CO2 emissions are very much in danger of tipping the the planet into a runaway climate shift that will end the ice age that is all our species has ever known.

      Take a look at this video series - he does a pretty decent job in he first couple videos of stripping away all the hypes and disingenuousness of both sides of the political debate, and gets down to the actual science and scientific debate. Yes, there is some scientific debate, but no, it has nothing to do with any of the tripe you've heard on the "news". He then spends many, many more episodes tearing apart the mountain of lies politicians and talking heads have piled on the issue.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    3. Re:Clutching at straws by marcgvky · · Score: 2
      Starting to like Immermans tone. Yes, I was referring to journals. And a proposition is not a proven fact, by definition.

      Since the tone of this conversation has shifted to one of debate (which is welcomed), most of the science that has been published is NOT repeatable, due to two factors: 1) to the confidence intervals when taken in 2) combination with the way the study data must be flogged and contorted, in order to produce a reasonably acceptable CI. This fact is never in dispute, even with most frequently cited authors. Ergo, extrapolating or deriving a clear and repeatable conclusion is theoretically impossible.

      One of my early mentors once said, "If you torture the numbers and cohorts enough, they will say anything that you want them to say." Climate change "science" falls into this category, until you can make a model that anyone can observe and test and say, "yep, that's it."

    4. Re:Clutching at straws by Immerman · · Score: 3, Informative

      Observational science is by it's nature difficult to repeat, and when discussing changes on a global scale the necessary period of repeatability is by necessity thousands, if not millions of years - which doesn't help us at all. So we're force to extrapolate from small-scale knowledge.

      Known - no significant debate among scientists.
      - atmospheric CO2, methane, and water vapor all slow the rate of thermal loss into space by making the atmosphere less transparent to IR, with water vapor and CO2 capturing relatively independent parts of the infrared band.
      - historical temperature reconstructions show that the combination of solar variation, atmospheric CO2 levels, and ice-cap extents (and a few other much less significant factors) appear to completely explain all major historical thermal fluctuations.
      - atmospheric CO2 monitoring shows steadily accelerating increases consistent with known human CO2 emissions
      - observations of the atmosphere at all levels show warming consistent with even decades-old models of AGW
      - over extremely long timescales the global climate oscillates between two metastable positions - ice ages, with their oscillations between deep freezes and temperate interglacial periods that we're in today, and warm periods (where oscillations seem to be instead between tropics and deserts).
      - at some point in every transition from an ice-age to a warm period a runaway process appears to take over, where melting ice caps, permafrost, and oceanic methane hydrates release ever-increasing amounts of greenhouse gasses into the atmosphere in a self-reinforcing cycle, until those reserves have been completely spent and the planet is firmly established in a warm period

      Unknown:
      - exactly where the "tipping point" is that causes runaway warming to take over (but all our best estimates are that with current fossil fuel consumption trends we'll cross it with ease by the end of the century, if we haven't done so already)
      - exactly how fast things can change, and how fast the biospere can adapt - i.e. just how bad the associated mass extinctions from a particular transition might be.
      - exactly what sorts of weather changes to expect during the centuries of transition.

      If you can throw some additional unknowns out that call into question the reality of the problem we're facing I'd be glad to hear it.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    5. Re:Clutching at straws by phantomfive · · Score: 2

      In which case the overwhelmingly consensus is that yes, fossil fuel CO2 emissions are very much in danger of tipping the the planet into a runaway climate shift that will end the ice age that is all our species has ever known.

      Except there's no consensus about a tipping point pushing into runaway climate change. I don't even know why you think there is a consensus on that. There is one very vocal scientist who is certain it will happen (James Hansen), and there are certainly others who agree with him, but it is far from a consensus. Seriously, where did you hear that?

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    6. Re:Clutching at straws by Immerman · · Score: 3, Informative

      No, there's definitely a consensus on a tipping point - every major climate shift for which we have data shows evidences of a runaway positive feedback loop where atmospheric CO2 levels climb precipitously when leaving an ice age (which we're currently in an interglacial period within), and there's no longer any serious debate about the warming effects of atmospheric CO2. Typically the process lags behind the temperature by several hundred years, this is the first time on record where it would be CO2 changes acting as the forcing factor rather than just positive feedback, but the warming effects of atmospheric CO2 are well understood and accepted. Normally something else happens that sets the planet to warming - orbital shifts increasing solar energy being one of the major ones. but then the CO2 feedback loop kicks in and carries the warming far beyond what the forcing factor alone could have done.

      Where there's not a broad consensus is on just how much warming has to happen before the positive feedback loop becomes unavoidable without massive risky geoengineering projects. Historic CO2 emissions (if we cut them to zero today) however are estimated to be sufficient to raise the global temperature by at least a couple degrees C, we're almost there already, and it'll be decades before current atmospheric CO2 levels can fall back to 1900 levels and stop warming the planet further. Meanwhile more realistic estimates based on current fossil-fuel consumption trends are estimating closer to a 4-10 degree change by the end of the century, and most climatologists believe that will be more than sufficient to cross the tipping point. We are after all starting from the position of a nice warm interglacial period.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    7. Re:Clutching at straws by Immerman · · Score: 2

      My mistake, I figured you maybe wanted more information to assuage your ignorance. Here:
      http://lmgtfy.com/?q=climate+c...

      Go ahead, find me some credible links there calling into question the existence of such a thing.

      The global climate is a metastable system on geologic timescales - there's no serious question about that. And *every* metastable system has tipping points - that's the defining quality of metastability.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M...

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    8. Re:Clutching at straws by dryeo · · Score: 2

      You left out one driver of climate change over geologic time scales. Continental drift which over the eons might be the largest driver of climate change. Relatively recent examples could be the closing of the isthmus of Panama stopping currents between the Pacific and Atlantic and the opening of the straight between Antarctica and S. America.
      Of course this is long term affects and obviously has nothing to do with historical climate.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
  4. Re:Wouldn't photography be a better reference? by houstonbofh · · Score: 2

    Surely photography would be a better reference - I'm assuming that the vast majority of 'globally influencing' pollution would have occurred after colour photography became popular.

    "King Edward I of England banned the burning of sea-coal by proclamation in London in 1272, after its smoke became a problem."
    So how far back to you think color photography goes?


    (1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P...

  5. Enough with the Climate Change Articles Slashdot by marcgvky · · Score: 2, Insightful

    We get it, you are climate change believers.... can we move on.... please.

  6. Re:Not just Man-made... by aaron4801 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Paraphrasing the summary: 'Volcanic eruptions make sunsets more red, therefore, redder sunsets in paintings reflect man-made pollution.' WTF?

  7. wow by Charliemopps · · Score: 4, Insightful

    When I read the title I thought to my self "That's a clever way to word something, so people will be outraged, read the article and then find that it's really about them sampling paint and finding pollutants there." But no, it was as ridiculous as the title suggested. Can we revoke their science card?

  8. Re:Dear Hippies, by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 2

    I'm pretty sure that 80 % of all the world's total happiness is achievable with 20 % of the world's resources, or something like that.

    --
    Ezekiel 23:20
  9. Re:Enough with the Climate Change Articles Slashdo by iggymanz · · Score: 2

    the climate has never been "stable" on this globe. We are not in an "ice age", you'll notice the lack of kilometer or two of ice over N. America. We are in an "interglacial" that is 12,000 years old, and that has nothing to do with humans. All that time the sea level has been rising, and if you look it up charts you'll see even the rate of rise for much of that time has been much faster than today's rate

    Really, get a grip on your imagined phobias.

  10. Re:Enough with the Climate Change Articles Slashdo by Immerman · · Score: 2

    Interglacial periods are part of an ice age - note the thick year-round ice caps on the poles? A sure sign we're still in an ice age, and one that estimates are will be gone within a few centuries at most if we don't drastically reduce fossil carbon emissions very quickly.

    No, the climate has never been stable, but it seems to have two meta-stable states around which it oscillates - ice ages, with their associated deep-freezes and temperate interglacial periods, and "hot Earths" where deserts and tropics battle for domination of the globe. Tropics we could live with, but planetary deserts would devastate our population, and are hardly a rare scenario under hot-Earth conditions. More importantly the unstable centuries of transition to a hot Earth will be extremely hard on agriculture of all kinds, and the speed of transition, which appears likely to be one of the fastest in geologic history, will usher in a new mass extinction, just as all the previous transitions have done. The climate line is already moving at an average of 1/4 mile per year, considerably faster than even the fastest-spreading plants can reliably "travel", and things are only just beginning to get moving. Combine that with what is already one of the larger mass extinctions the planet has seen due to human predation, pollution, and environmental destruction, and it may take the biosphere millenia to recover, even with all the help we can give it. And if the planetary carrying capacity were to fall precipitously we've got the added risk of global warfare as nations struggle for survival. But hey, at last all that nuclear fallout should boost mutation rates dramatically, so biodiversity may have a chance to return on a faster timetable. It'll kinda suck for the individuals dealing with it though.

    --
    --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
  11. Re:Dear Hippies, by ganjadude · · Score: 2

    im pretty sure 90% of statistics on the internet are simply pulled out of peoples asses 73.7% of the time

    --
    have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
  12. Re:News? by kmoser · · Score: 2

    If it weren't for Seurat, we wouldn't have known that 19th century people were made of tiny dots.