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State Colleges May Offer Best ROI On Comp Sci Degrees
jfruh (300774) writes "PayScale has recently released a survey of various U.S. colleges and majors, and determined, perhaps unsurprisingly, that computer science graduates of elite colleges make the most money in post-graduate life. However, blogger Phil Johnson approached the problem in a different way, taking into account the amount students and their families need to pay in tuition, [and found] that the best return on investment in comp sci degrees often comes from top-tier public universities, which cost significantly less for in-state students but still offer great rewards in terms of salaries for grads."
Unfortunately, you have to be a finance major to understand the report.
But the Finance major can't possibly be a CS major, unless he went to college twice, which would means he can't plan anyway. Regardless, if he went for Finance first, then to CS, he obviously realized that CS was better. But, if he went for CS first, then for Finance, he would then realize that CS was better. This catch 22 is the best proof why Agile is the preferred method even when taking college courses.
Have you read my journal today?
You can keep your doctor and your old insurance!
Posted by: Barrack Obama
Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit. A degree from a state university is basically toilet paper as compared to, say, MIT or Harvard or any other prestigious college/university. Second, a degree from a "cheaper" college works against you in another way - chances are that you didn't pay as much to go to that aggie school, so you don't have as much debt. Employers like indebted fresh graduates, because they're 1) idealistic and enthusiastic, having not had their souls crushed yet, and 2) a $1000 student loan payment makes it harder to quit when they treat you like shit and make you do the work of 3 people. Combine that with lower salaries and you've got a winning combination for an employer.
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
The day of the year we set aside to honor the Obamas, their administration, and all the supportive network of regressives and their cohorts and dupes.
Happy Obama Day! You've got some spinach stuck between your teeth.
A couple of intro classes, programming languages, discrete maths, use of the popular programming language d'jour, operating systems, data structures, algorithms and computability, compilers etc. Am I close to most people?
So basically the degree itself is a commodity, though not the person. So it doesn't really matter at the undergrad level if you go to Ivy or State. The foundation is the same. There may be differentiation at the graduate level, but that often depends more on your adviser and the adviser's reputation.
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
Doesn't MATTER where you went for it. Comp. Sci. IS Comp. Sci., no matter WHERE you took it. Imo (& yes, experience with 6++ yrs. of collegiate academic experience AFTER highschool & dual degrees on my end), it's what YOU PUT INTO IT that counts & matters, in the long haul. You could go to "worstschoolinUSA U", but if YOU put in the time, hard work & effort (not as bad IF/WHEN you love doing what you're into & studying), it pays off, no matter what.
APK
P.S.=> Personally, I feel *IF* you blew all that extra ca$h on some "prestigious university" (& I went to a fairly highly esteemed Northeast US school, on combined academic + athletic scholarship (see Letter K) -> http://lemoynedolphins.com/spo... ), you wasted your money - actually come RIGHT DOWN TO IT? Any field can be an "autodidactically self-taught one" - look @ math & Ramanujan for example... it IS, doable.
So, I can't agree with you on what education is REALLY about - learning jobskills.
(So, I can't agree that your viewpoint's the correct one that pays off OR why you should be doing schooling beyond highschool really... So sure, as far as payoff? Your view sometimes it does do so, but I am speaking PURELY from the perspective of knowledge you gain only, not politics - you went to school to learn something you could earn a living from, since the "other guy" customer CAN'T or WON'T do the job, himself - the school you go to, no matter how "pretigious/elite" it is, won't do THAT for you)... apk
April 1st, don't care.
indeed, with less debt you don't need as large of a salary. This opens more jobs because more people are willing to hire for less!
Berkeley is, if the (UK) Times Higher Education Supplement Rankings are to be believed, one of the top 10 universities in the world - and top three in engineering and technology. I'm pretty sure that constitutes "elite" standing. But in this article, it's treated as a "top-tier public university." Is it both?
Village idiot in some extremely smart villages.
With what you said here http://slashdot.org/comments.p... except that even at postgrad/postdoc levels, it STILL is what YOU yourself make it (how much time, study, & effort you put into it, & I also mean how much ABOVE & BEYOND the 'std, academic success formula' of "for every 1 hour of class, you should study 3++ beyond it on your own" etc./et al) - I still think that even @ those levels, it's MOSTLY what you put into it, to get the MOST out of it.
APK
P.S.=> Other than that though? I am with you, 110%... apk
Elite colleges and universities don't necessarily have better programs. The real advantage to going to an elite college is the contacts you make. In a state school you're likely to meet someone who has to work 40 hours a week and goes to school part time. That person is simply working towards a degree and will not make any contacts and probably few friends.
In an elite college, it's important to the college that you make friends and contacts that's why they're expensive. It's the quintessential college experience. No only do you make friends, but alums help graduates. Even the most minor private college knows this and will encourage student collaboration.
Public universities may offer the best ROI on degrees, but when it comes to the ROI for drop-outs, Stanford, Harvard and MIT have the market cornered.
If you're after a good solid education, state schools do offer the best ROI for undergrad studies. I went to one, and was able to (barely) pay for it myself with a small amount of student loans, summer work and a little savings. Undergraduate education, from a content perspective, is very similar everywhere. I have a chemistry degree, and almost all undergrad chemistry programs are the same -- 2 survey courses, 2 organic chem, 2 physical chem, 2 analytical chem, 4 or 5 different lab courses, 4 or 5 electives (which vary based on what the schools' professors are concentrating on.)
The main differentiating factors I've noticed with private schools are the networking opportunities in and out of school, and the "cushy" factor. Even in a high tax state like New York, the state universities are pretty Spartan as far as accommodations go. Lately, states have been spending lavish sums trying to catch up in terms of sports facilities, etc. but they're still not a Harvard or Yale. Students going the state university route need to understand that they're going to get what they pay for, and likely be ahead of their private university peers in terms of raw dollars in debt when they get out. They need to be self-motivated and mature enough to handle their own affairs -- outside of class, everything at a state university is like dealing with a state agency. You're one student of thousands, and no one but you is going to care if you fail out. As far as opportunities go, private schools do give you a leg up. There are certain jobs you can't even hope to interview for such as white-shoe consulting firms or investment banking, who almost exclusively recruit from Ivy League schools. In my experience, this only applies to your first job or two, however. I've interviewed both public and private college grads, and there's an equal distribution of qualified people in each camp.
Since tuition is going way up at both the public and private levels, students who don't already have the money saved really do need to do a cost-benefit analysis. I probably would have had a better experience at somewhere like MIT or Stanford, just because I would have been studying with more smart people. But, I didn't have the money for $100K+ tuition. Students need to stop and think whether the caché of a big name school offsets the huge expense. They need to think about things like:
If the answer to any of these is "yes" and the student has a pot of money, they should go to private school. Otherwise, they should save their money. If a student is willing to hustle a little to get their first job, their accomplishments at that job and the connections they make will carry them through the rest of their careers. They probably won't reach stratospheric heights of corporate power, but talented students graduating with in-demand degrees can still do well.
I didn't go to an Ivy League school so I can't verify this first hand but I would suspect that both Public and Private schools offer much the same in terms of what you learn while you are there. The big advantage, I suspect, in going to a Private school is the people you meet and the contacts you make rather than what you learn in the classroom.
Think about it - who goes to expensive private schools? Sons and daughters of alumni. Kids of successful parents. Kids of wealthy foreign families. Those are tomorrows movers and shakers. Getting to meet them over a beer at the campus pub forms potentially long term relationships that might help you out down the road.
So the real value is more in who you meet than what you learn. It's not what you know it's who you know.
NJIT does not cost $130,000 for an undergrad degree. Not even close. It costs me $30,000 without financial aid so this chart is off by 100k for some reason...To me this looks like a bogus chart where they over estimated the costs of cheap schools to make bourgeois private schools look better.
I know very few people who actually went to university to get an education. And even fewer employers who care more about "Education" than "degree." Nearly all of the people I work with and went to college with went for a degree.
If you could do the job you want to have for the rest of your life the day you leave high school (like most software engineers who actually write code for a living - assuming some learning on the job) then your greatest ROI is to get an accredited diploma from the cheapest, fastest university you can go to.
You are filling in a checkbox, not seeking an education... don't fool yourself.
A degree is a practical expense for most people. An "education" is a luxury afforded only for the very rich. Don't go into crippling debt to get an education, you (basically everyone) can't afford that crap. You can study and learn on your own, later. You are there for a degree, and don't forget it.
An entire generation of people seem confused about this. They think an "education" is worth going into massive debt, they think an "education" will get them a job that will pay the bills... well, I should use the past tense, because nobody thinks that anymore. According to what I have read about "Millennials"
Degree as part of a structured career plan = good idea
Education as a "career will follow" plan is OVER, it was the case in 1965, but you will enjoy a lifetime full of debt and meager earnings if you use that "plan" now.
If it seems harsh and anti-education I am sorry. I am all about learning, but novelty $100,000 sheepskins, sold at 4% interest to first generation college students with no career plan - really boils my blood.
It is really disappointing that in my lifetime we have managed to shift seeking an education from an empowering experience to hopelessly and permanently hindering the lives of middle and lower class people.
I applied for other universities, but when it came down to it I found that going to Oregon State University was the best bang for my then-limited buck. And I've been very happy with my CS degree.
You don't have to be a finance major to understand that the calculations were flawed. They only count the amount spent on tuition. They don't count the cost of your human capital and the opportunity costs involved. Investing in yourself is not like investing in the stock market because you only have one life to invest in. So you cannot just compare the difference in tuition between a state school and Stanford because you are also giving up a portion of your young life to your educational pursuits.
Their highest 20 year net ROI/yr school was University of Virginia, but they only returned $1.3 million in total. Stanford returned $1.7 million. So even though the annual ROI was greater at the University of Virginia, you are still leaving $400k on the table by not choosing Stanford. And considering you can borrow money at 6.8% interest, it only costs you $90k more after interest to go to Stanford instead of the University of Virginia (if the loans are paid over a 20 year period).
So the only correct calculation is that going to Stanford will net you an extra $300k versus going to the University of Virginia (obviously this is not a very precise calculation though).
-- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
...what you put in to it. I went to a local state university for CS, and I studied hard and did well in school. Four years later I had my BS in CS in hand having paid less than $15K in tuition (and that wasn't all that long ago). I got a job locally with the help of referrals by professors who had good working relationships with many of the local tech employers. In short, my entire education was a helluva bargain, and helped launch my career.
"False hope is why we'll never run out of natural resources!" - Lewis Black
Haven't seen YOU for a while apk. Did you take my ADVICE and seek professional help? MAYBE they CHANGED your dose - you seem less AFFECTed than you used to.
I pity today's college student burdened with obscene tuition. When I decided to go back to school (because of a non-existant social life) my choices were pretty open - I had good undergrad grades and a mind-blowing GRE. Tuition/fees at UT Austin c. 1970 was under $700 a *year* and I rented a quite decent duplex for $135 a month. Planning to spend most of my time chasing coeds, I opted for a not-so-high-pressure state school over an expensive, high-pressure, prestige school. Never regretted it - chasing coeds was great fun until one caught me and I had to finish my PhD. But I came out w/o any debt and I'm still head-over-heels crazy about that girl.
Alas such school fun is no longer possible, both tuition and academic pressure is now obscene at UT. It's today's students who have to walk 5 miles in the snow to school, uphill both ways. Damn, but I wish they could share my lawn.
1.) A license to practice the psychiatric sciences. 2.) A PhD in psychiatric sciences 3.) A formal examination of my "alleged mental state" (according to YOU, "Dr. Quack: 'SiDeWaLk-ShRiNk of /.' (lol))
??
* No? I didn't *think* so - hell, I knew not...
APK
P.S.=> You're nothing more than some libelous snivelling little ac troll - nothing more (that's certain, & no degree's required to identify THAT much about you - purest obvious truth)...
... apk
I got CS degree from state university. So cheap I worked my way through undergrad as TA and IT help. No debt. But no debt worked against me when I bought my first brand new car a year after graduating. They said having no debt and half the money for the car was a bad thing!
I don't think it matters too much where you go to college. If you are good at computer programming, companies will try to snatch you up quick. Some people don't even go to school for it because they teach themselves how to program. Over time, it will matter less which school you came from but rather the experiences and interpersonal skills you have gained. This will help you greatly advance higher in both position and salary.
One thing I've found in the work world that they don't prepare you for at all in college is the work environment. In college, you take CS or engineering classes, and you do the work on your own, frequently in the solitude of your own apartment, or at the library where it's quiet. Then, when it's time for an exam, you take it in the classroom, and talking and discussion and other noises are not allowed. This should all be changed, because it doesn't reflect the modern work environment.
First off, students should be required to do all their programming assignments and exercises together in one large room, at rows of open tables with no dividers between them. A class full of business majors or better yet marketing majors should be brought in and sat right next to them, so they can do their collaborative projects next to the CS/engr majors. The business/marketing majors can talk loudly all they want, and interrupt the CS/engr majors while they're working with various useless comments ("How's it going!"). The CS/engr majors should not be allowed to take their work anywhere else; they have to do it only in this environment.
When it's test time, the test should be held in a busy corridor. Put all the students at long tables together on the side of the corridor, so that all the foot traffic passes right next to them.
If you can't do your programming work with lots of noise and commotion and people talking to you and walking by you constantly, you have NO business being a programmer in today's corporate world where open-plan work areas are now the norm.
ROI on Comp Sci
Hahah! Good one. Almost got me. Everyone knows the best ROI is via nepotistic foriegn degree mill and a H1B visa. April fools!
So why bother?
Run for 20-somethings by 20-somethings. Plenty of alternatives.
This article misses the fact that elite colleges are also typically the most generous when it comes to financial aid. I am studying CS at Yale. Yale's tuition + room and board cost is nowhere near affordable by my family. Nevertheless, I got a Yale scholarship that covers everything I cannot pay, and I will not be indebted when I graduate. My tuition is probably lower than a state college's (although they might provide some aid for cases like mine, but not me since I'm an international). And I am by no means a special case, 50% of the student body is on financial aid. The perception that elite colleges are out to strip you of your money and put you on a life-long debt is false. They are willing to throw money at you if you get admitted. Also, it is rare that anybody graduates from the CS department without any job offers. I admit that what I learn is probably not drastically different than what people learn at a state college. Still, it is much harder to make it above the curve here than it will be at a state college, and much more effort/focus will be needed to stay afloat. There is certainly a discrepancy in difficulty, and employers will probably appreciate that.
Count Grishnakh! When did you get out?