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European Parliament Votes For Net Neutrality, Forbids Mobile Roaming Costs

First time accepted submitter TBerben (1061176) writes "The European Parliament has voted to accept the telecommunications reform bill. This bill simultaneously forbids mobile providers from charging roaming costs as of December 15, 2015 and guarantees net neutrality. Previous versions of the bill contained a much weaker definition of net neutrality, offering exemptions for 'specialized services,' but this was superseded in an amendment (original link, in Dutch) submitted by Dutch MEP Marietje Schaake (liberal fraction). Note that the legislation is not yet definitive: the Council of Ministers still has the deciding vote, but they are expected to follow the EP's vote."

148 comments

  1. Moo by Chacham · · Score: 0

    According to a European Commission survey published in February 2014, 94% of Europeans who travel outside their home country limit their use of the web, including social media such as Facebook, because of the cost of mobile roaming.

    Catch that? including social media such as Facebook

    I knew Facebook was everywhere. Taken over little by little. First Occulus, now the Occident.

  2. Good, I guess by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I'm big on NN, but I do admit there are good points made for market driven forces to allow buildup of delivery services. That breaks down with the lack of competition at the ISP level. I assume its similar in Europe as the US.

    Riddle me this. If Netflix pays and ISP for delivering its content with quality...should not all subscribers to that ISP, regardless of what plan they signed up for, get Netflix at the highest possible bandwidth?

    This issue can't be piecemeal-ed.

    1. Re:Good, I guess by 91degrees · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Net Netrality is less of a problem in Europe. Our ISPs aren't nearly as monopolised as they seem to be in the US. To be honest, I'm not even sure that this is automatically a goood thing. I don't mind my Netflix getting a extra bandwidth, as long as this is bandwidth in addition to what everyone already gets. The problem is establishing whether the high payers are getting extra or everyone else is gettign a reuced service. There's no actually a difference; it just depends what you consider the baseline to be.

    2. Re:Good, I guess by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm big on NN, but I do admit there are good points made for market driven forces to allow buildup of delivery services.

      When each ISP is a local monopoly, then there is no market. If every home had a choice of a dozen ISPs, there would be no need for NN. NN is needed to prevent ISPs from abusing their monopoly power.

    3. Re:Good, I guess by 91degrees · · Score: 5, Informative

      Well, in Britain I had the choice of BT, Virgin, TalkTalk, Sky, Plusnet, Tesco, Clara.net and a whole load of others. So I don;t think any of them are local monopolies.

    4. Re:Good, I guess by smooth+wombat · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Where I live in the U.S., I have two choices: Comcast or Verizon.

      Both charge $75/month for 15/5 which is the package available.

      You will this situation in many parts of the country where competition is defined as two companies charging the same high price for the same slow speeds.

      --
      We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
    5. Re:Good, I guess by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Riddle me this. If Netflix pays and ISP for delivering its content with quality...should not all subscribers to that ISP, regardless of what plan they signed up for, get Netflix at the highest possible bandwidth?

      Nope, not at all. If Netflix pays an ISP to do this, an ISP's obligations should be to buy MORE bandwidth so that other activities doesn't affect Netflix's services and to also ensure that Netflix doesn't rock the boat regarding other data on the network.

    6. Re:Good, I guess by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      GP failed to mention that the choice within the UK is mostly between BT and Virgin, everyone else uses BT wholesale services. In the USA I believe the idea of the FCC forcing AT&T to wholesale its lines to competitors is completely alien?

    7. Re:Good, I guess by jalopezp · · Score: 2

      The point of net neutrality is that net traffic is treated as a commodity. If service providers can choose which packets to give preferene, they not only compete on price and speed, they also compete on the shape of their packet preferences. This means competition moves from a commodity model to a monopolistically competitive one, which is less efficient. Granted, a duopoly is much less efficient, so it may be a moot point, but net neutrality is overall good, no matter how many ISPs there are.

    8. Re:Good, I guess by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Netflix should be able to purchase quality connections to an ISP and customers should be able to purchase quality connections to their ISP, but Netflix should not be able to use the ISP to purchase connections directly to the customer. All deals between a customer and their ISP should be exclusively between the customer and their ISP, not some 3rd-party trying to "bribe" their way into encouraging an ISP to not maintain their core infrastructure.

    9. Re:Good, I guess by raju1kabir · · Score: 2

      In the USA I believe the idea of the FCC forcing AT&T to wholesale its lines to competitors is completely alien?

      It actually used to be the law of the land. During that period (around 2000) there was an incredibly vibrant broadband ISP scene. Unfortunately the FCC changed its mind (and no doubt a few briefcases full of cash changed hands) and now the situation has reverted to the anti-consumer oligopoly you see today.

      --
      "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." -- GBS
    10. Re:Good, I guess by 91degrees · · Score: 1

      Which suggests things are the wrong way round :) Unless the wholesaler charges extra to the end company (e.g. Netflix) - and I don't think it's set up so that they can - competition in Europe should for the most part prevent this sort of problem. In the US there is no competition to speak of, nor is there any apparent plan to create any. That's where net neutrality is actually needed.

    11. Re:Good, I guess by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 3, Interesting

      ISPs advertise, amd charge more for, higher speeds to your house.

      It's fraud to deliberately degrade Netflix to attempt to extort from them a portion of what I pay Netflix.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    12. Re:Good, I guess by 91degrees · · Score: 2

      I may be wrong, but don't BT Wholesale just sell the chunk of connection between the home and the exchange? It would be difficult for BT to interfere with data rates on a per packet basis here. So there is actually competition even amongst the DSL providers,

    13. Re:Good, I guess by Chelloveck · · Score: 1, Redundant

      Then think about it reverse situation. I'm Amazon. We've been having a hard time getting traction for our streaming service; that lousy Netflix has the market locked up. We have all the bandwidth we need, so paying the ISP for more won't help. I know! We'll pay them to throttle Netflix's bandwidth!

      Or, I'm Comcast. We own NBC, and their ratings suck rocks. So we'll give preferential treatment for subscribers who stream our properties, and throttle the speed of properties we don't own. And if people really want to watch other content we can charge them extra to remove the throttling. Call it the "Special SpeedBoost Streaming Package" and charge our subscribers $10/month extra for it.

      Or, I'm Sony. Let's slip Comcast a little to make sure that PSN games have a higher network priority than XBone games. Et voila! See how much faster and smoother PlayStation is compared to XBox!

      --
      Chelloveck
      I give up on debugging. From now on, SIGSEGV is a feature.
    14. Re:Good, I guess by Sockatume · · Score: 1

      If Netflix gets its own servers installed at the ISP, that's an improved service, but my understanding is that operators want to do things like prioritise traffic to/from their favoured clients when the network is oversubscribed, which is double-dipping.

      --
      No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
    15. Re:Good, I guess by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Net Netrality is less of a problem in Europe. Our ISPs aren't nearly as monopolised as they seem to be in the US. To be honest, I'm not even sure that this is automatically a goood thing. I don't mind my Netflix getting a extra bandwidth, as long as this is bandwidth in addition to what everyone already gets. The problem is establishing whether the high payers are getting extra or everyone else is gettign a reuced service. There's no actually a difference; it just depends what you consider the baseline to be.

      You mean net neutrality (and partially price) isn't an issue in the EU because of:
      http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/information_society/internet/l24108j_en.htm

    16. Re:Good, I guess by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

      Less efficient for theconsumer.

      But more profitable for the Corporations that SCOTUS and Congress work for.

      --
      -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    17. Re:Good, I guess by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow, you really did just stop reading after the quoted section. From the OP:

      That breaks down with the lack of competition at the ISP level.

    18. Re:Good, I guess by morgauxo · · Score: 1

      I don't think it's likely to be 'in addition to'. 'In addition to' requires building of infrastructure. Taking away from everyone else just requires a software tweak in the routers.

    19. Re:Good, I guess by Anonymice · · Score: 1

      Correct. The exchanges are legally required to provide collocation services to other providers (I can't remember if "fair" fees are also regulated - I wouldn't be surprised), those companies then resell exchange access to third party ISPs (basically any ISP outside the "Big 6").
      In all, it basically goes: BT manages the copper -> B2B ISP manages the PoP at the exchange -> Consumer ISP terminates the connection.

    20. Re:Good, I guess by Solandri · · Score: 1

      I don't mind my Netflix getting a extra bandwidth, as long as this is bandwidth in addition to what everyone already gets. The problem is establishing whether the high payers are getting extra or everyone else is gettign a reuced service. There's no actually a difference; it just depends what you consider the baseline to be.

      That's actually the crux of the matter. It's very difficult (if not impossible) to tell whether the ISP is using the money Netflix pays to buy extra bandwidth used for Netflix, or is just pocketing the money and simply reallocating bandwidth from elsewhere to Netflix thus degrading service for everyone else.

      Net Neutrality just says, "since it's so hard to distinguish between those two cases, prevent the latter by prohibiting prioritization of one service over another."

    21. Re:Good, I guess by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which at the end of the day still requires a BT line, try asking for Sky broadband or TalkTalk over a Virgin POTS line and see what happens :P

    22. Re:Good, I guess by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Roughly yes. There are two companies in the "BT Group" formed from the old British Telecom which are forbidden (according to the law at least, and there are people watching to some extent) from cross-subsidising. "BT Openreach" is a last-mile monopoly telephony company of the sort found in most of the Industrialised North. The law obliges it to sell any services it offers to resellers at regulated prices and it isn't allowed to deal with retail consumers directly. Then there's "BT Retail" which trades under the BT brand. It buys services from Openreach and brands them, markets them etc. to consumers and small businesses.

      So for example say you order "Unlimited BT Infinity 2" having seen the TV adverts for this "high speed fibre broadband". BT Retail fills out forms asking BT Openreach to supply FTTC WBC product on your phone line. FTTC means there's fibre from the telephone exchange to a (typically green) street cabinet nearer you, that cabinet has a big VDSL2 modem in it, and the engineer also installs a consumer one in your home. VDSL2 can do 80Mbit/s if you're fairly close to the cabinet, although the cheapest FTTC product is rate-limited to 40Mbit/s. The IP traffic going from your home, to the cabinet, to the exchange, is transported by WBC (Wholesale Broadband Connect) to the nearest BT Retail Point of Presence, probably in a big city where they can buy IP transit cheaply. Every month you pay BT Retail for your "BT Infinity" service, and they pay some of it to BT Openreach to provide the actual FTTC WBC. If you instead bought "Unlimited Fibre 2" from Zen, a competitor of BT Retail, they would order _exactly the same_ service from Openreach, but the traffic goes to Zen's POP and you pay Zen.

      In theory ISPs can intervene at the telephone exchange instead of purchasing Wholesale Broadband Connect, which is called "unbundling". This only works out to be economic for the bigger ISPs at the larger exchanges, so for much of the population it's WBC or nothing.

      However, this approach doesn't leave that much to compete on. For example, more or less all UK ISPs offer fibre in either 40Mbit/s or 80Mbit/s because those are the two options from Openreach. Customer service is a differentiator (the cheapest ISPs tend to have bad customer service), and a few smaller ISPs offer IPv6 as well as IPv4 or offer IP multicasting. But other than that it's mostly fripperies, like ISP webmail, or free access to WiFi hotspots. There's no way for an ISP to deliver say 100Mbit/s fibre broadband before everybody else, because that would have to come from Openreach and be sold to all comers.

      The UK cable TV network however is a straight forward monopoly. One company owns basically all the cable TV in the UK, and it sells the only Internet service using the cable TV cables. It's an alternative to BT, if you have it, which only cities and bigger towns tend to.

    23. Re:Good, I guess by HeckRuler · · Score: 1

      Whoa there. Important nuance you're missing.

      The internet is, was, and hopefully will operate with network neutrality in place. The networks interacted in a (mostly) neutral way when it came to exchanging data.

      What you're talking about is legislature, rules, or regulation enforcing network neutrality.

      It's far more accurate to say that if every home had a choice of a dozen ISPs, there would be no ISP that didn't operate under NN principles or else they would simply go out of business.

      There have been a few examples of corporations trying to break network neutrality. ESPN360.com trying to hustle ISPs for money is one. ISPs trying to hustle Netflix for money is another. And they're rat bastards for doing so. But by and far we HAVE network neutrality. And we sure as shit want to keep it. Without it the Internet becomes significantly less awesome than it is today.

    24. Re:Good, I guess by Solandri · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm big on NN, but I do admit there are good points made for market driven forces to allow buildup of delivery services. That breaks down with the lack of competition at the ISP level. I assume its similar in Europe as the US.

      It's not just lack of competition at the ISP level. Poorly thought out government-imposed standards can have the same effect too. When digital cell phone service rolled out, Europe mandated all carriers use GSM. GSM uses TDMA - it allocates a fixed timeslice to each user. During your phone's timeslice, the tower is yours and yours alone. This works fine for voice, since voice data has a fixed maximum bandwidth. But it becomes a real problem for data because you're wasting bandwidth by allocating it to phones which aren't actually using it during their timeslice.

      The U.S. didn't mandate GSM. Consequently it ended up with both GSM and CDMA carriers. CDMA doesn't allocated a fixed bandwidth block to each phone. All phones are allowed to transmit simultaneously (each phone uses orthogonal codes which uniquely identify them), and their bandwidth is set by the noise floor (i.e. other phones' transmissions). So the bandwidth available to each phone automatically scales based on the number of phones communicating with the tower at any given time. If there are 20 phones transmitting or receiving, each gets 1/20th the bandwidth. If there's just one phone, it gets all the bandwidth.

      So CDMA scales beautifully with number of phones, while GSM does not scale at all. Consequently the CDMA carriers were the first to roll out 2g service. There was no way to fix GSM for data. They had to add on a different standard for data, which most carriers implemented with CDMA or wideband CDMA. That's right, the HSDPA data service on most 3g GSM phones was actually CDMA. That's why you could browse the web and talk on a GSM phone at the same time - it had one TDMA radio for voice, and a second CDMA radio for data. CDMA phones couldn't do that (unless they supported voice over IP) because they only had one CDMA radio for both.

      CDMA was the better technology and it won the standards war. GSM was well-intentioned (I still think the SIM card idea is best for customers), but lack of foresight among the standard-makers could have hobbled the development of cellular data services. Fortunately the U.S. refused to require carriers use GSM, and instead let the market decide. Which it did, with CDMA emerging as the winner. (It's being replaced by LTE, which uses OFDMA - similar concept to CDMA but in the frequency domain instead of the code domain. It just requires more CPU power than CDMA, which wasn't possible on battery-limited mobile devices until recently. 802.11ac also uses OFDMA.)

      For net neutrality though, I don't think this applies. We're not talking about how a service transmits its bits to an ISP. We're talking about what and how much the service transmits to the ISP. As long as the service is not transmitting more than the bandwidth the customer has paid for, there is no justification for throttling it. If the ISP has a problem with too many customers using a lot of bandwidth because of Netflix, that's something they need to take up with their customers, not with Netflix.

      The ISP signed a contract with their customers agreeing to provide x Mbps of bandwidth. If they're unable to provide it at the price point they agreed to, that's between them and the customer. Netflix plays no role in it. In fact if the ISP wants to save on upstream bandwidth by having Netflix content hosted locally, they should have to pay Netflix for this privilege. The fact that the opposite is happening and Netflix is paying the ISPs is entirely an artifact of the monopoly these ISPs were given by their local governments.

    25. Re:Good, I guess by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Holy shit! You are doing worst than Brazil!!! I mean, I used to have monkeys on my backyard!!!
      I'm paying US$30,00 for 10Mbs in a small city with monopoly (one option besides radio with 1Mb).

    26. Re:Good, I guess by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Interesting, thanks. However, I believe it is possible to do TDMA without dedicating particular frames to particular users.

      Instead of a tower assigning a frame to a phone, the phone could randomly pick one. Some packets will get lost due to collisions. This is how ADS-B works.

      However, it probably wouldn't scale nearly as well as CDMA, unless the frames are REALLY short so that there can be many of them (in which case overhead becomes a problem). If there are only 10 frames on a channel, then even a few phones will have collisions frequently, while with dedicated frame assignments there won't be any. With CDMA the spread-spectrum nature of things will result in just individual bits being lost and not entire frames, allowing error correction to work its magic.

      Disclaimer, I'm hardly an expert in any of this, and know just enough about *DMA to be dangerous.

    27. Re:Good, I guess by realxmp · · Score: 1

      Depends what kind of monopoly you mean, because of regulation, maybe not in a Network Neutrality kind of way but it's still a monopoly. All but one of those options above are going over BT's local loop and a lot of the smaller operators also buy their exchange hub backhaul from BT (Also Plusnet is BT). BT Openreach (the bare wires bit) is pretty much a local monopoly in most of the country and thus why they're so heavily regulated. It's pretty hard to say how they'd behave if they weren't, but you can bet if they had a choice they'd not be sharing that loop. Outside of the cities it is BT Wholesale that is most definitely a monopoly, the rural broadband project was pretty much a flop and all of the contracts went to BT. This means that the way BT Wholesale's price list is set up in turn sets the business model for anyone who buys bandwidth and lines from them.

    28. Re:Good, I guess by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's a difference between giving priority to Netflix, and giving priority to all streaming video services.

      I think giving priority to VOIP and gaming services would be best, given that latency can kill the experience. But to favor one specific company over another should not be allowed.

    29. Re:Good, I guess by Ash-Fox · · Score: 1

      everyone else uses BT wholesale services

      Not true, See BE and Virgin.

      --
      Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
    30. Re:Good, I guess by lars_stefan_axelsson · · Score: 2

      So CDMA scales beautifully with number of phones, while GSM does not scale at all. Consequently the CDMA carriers were the first to roll out 2g service. There was no way to fix GSM for data. They had to add on a different standard for data, which most carriers implemented with CDMA or wideband CDMA. That's right, the HSDPA data service on most 3g GSM phones was actually CDMA. That's why you could browse the web and talk on a GSM phone at the same time - it had one TDMA radio for voice, and a second CDMA radio for data. CDMA phones couldn't do that (unless they supported voice over IP) because they only had one CDMA radio for both.

      As someone who developed GPRS for Ericsson back in the day, I don't even know where to start...

      There were a number of different competing standards, in different parts of the world. That CDMA wasn't mandated in the US was not for lack of trying by the US manufacturers.

      And, no, if we're talking about true packet data, i.e. not "phone modems", GSM/GPRS did emphatically not use a dedicated slot per user for data communication. Instead all the available "data" slots (and there can be many) were/are shared dynamically between all the users wanting to receive/transmit using dynamic reservation protocols (depending on, among other things, whether you have data to send/receive). Indeed EDGE is just GSM/GPRS with more data slots available, and with mobiles that can use more slots in sequence.

      All this is moot anyway, as the explosion of demand for mobile IP, necessitated completely new systems anyway. And since they were new, they weren't hampered by what was already there. You say that UMTS is based on CDMA, which is true, but there are also FDMA and TDMA parts, and even versions of the UMTS protocols. So that UMTS is CDMA and that's superior to GSM which is TDMA does not follow.

      I could write a book about the rest, but that'll have to do for now.

      --
      Stefan Axelsson
    31. Re:Good, I guess by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      everyone else uses BT wholesale services

      Not true, See BE and Virgin.

      You still need a BT line for the former and thus is still reliant on BT somewhat.

    32. Re:Good, I guess by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Online Support For All
      http://onlinesupport4all.blogspot.com/

  3. Cynicism by Thanshin · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Option A : Mobile providers make less money next year.

    Option B : Mobile providers raise the standard charges the exact necessary amount to avoid having losses due to this law.

    Option C : Mobile providers raise the standard charges more than necessary and justify the raise saying ordinary people need to pay for the yuppies who roam Europe in their sports cars while chatting on their phones.

    1. Re:Cynicism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The mobile provides in much of Europe are in the mid of a race to the bottom for years, whoever raises charges will go bankrupt because everyone will just move to another carrier.

    2. Re:Cynicism by 91degrees · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Option D: Mobile operators don't make significant losses because roaming charges are a pretty small chunk of their income, and it's offset by increased usage by travellers.

    3. Re:Cynicism by TheRaven64 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      My mobile provider (3, in the UK) has started rolling out a thing that lets you use your inclusive minutes and data allowance in other countries without any extra charge (the costs if you go over those limits are pretty dire). It was actually cheaper for me to use data on my mobile when I visit the US than it was for the people I was visiting, on my last trip. I think they've seen the writing on the wall and started making these agreements long before they were needed. They're able to do this and charge 3p/minute for calls, 2p/text and 1p/MB for data (pre-pay - if you get a bundle and buy in bulk then things are cheaper, but the bundles are time limited).

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    4. Re:Cynicism by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Roaming causes no extra costs to the mobile providers (in europe) it only gives them unjustified extra money.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    5. Re:Cynicism by CRCulver · · Score: 1

      Since pan-European operators like Orange or Vodaphone are actually made up of many individual companies registered at the national level, would the use of an Orange network in country A by a customer from country B not result in at least some added accounting expense, as these individual companies have to coordinate their records?

    6. Re:Cynicism by FireFury03 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Option B : Mobile providers raise the standard charges the exact necessary amount to avoid having losses due to this law.

      Option C : Mobile providers raise the standard charges more than necessary and justify the raise saying ordinary people need to pay for the yuppies who roam Europe in their sports cars while chatting on their phones.

      The rates are largely set by the market - if they could get away with raising their standard rates, don't you think they would have already done so?

      Also, you're ignoring a 4th option: they might actually make more money by having reasonable roaming charges. As an example, on my PAYG contract I pay £0.01/MB while at home, but while on a trip to Canada earlier in the year it would've been £6/MB - *600 times the domestic charge*. The upshot was that I simply turned off 3G on my phone and didn't use it at all - zero profit for the MNO. If the charges had been more reasonable then I probably would've left it turned on and they would've made some money. Same goes for voice calls too. (FWIW, roaming charges within the EU have been regulated for some time and are much much lower anyway)

      This is basically the EU saying "you've shown you can't be trusted to not take the piss, so we're taking our ball and going home".

    7. Re:Cynicism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dude, increased usage means more cost for the provider. How does that offset the income loss? Unless, of course, a subscriber goes over whatever BS limits the carrier has imposed?

    8. Re:Cynicism by 91degrees · · Score: 1

      Limit? What is this? My monthly cost is zero, and I get charged for phone calls. Where do you live where you're limited to how many calls you can make?

    9. Re:Cynicism by jalopezp · · Score: 1

      Option D : More likely, large mobile providers in the more populous countries of the EU will stop making supranormal profits from corporate customers who travel for work, a hundred small operators from smaller countries will go bankrupt, and most others will merge or be acquired by a larger firm.

      I'm not trying to be funny. It's very easy to switch mobile operators, and there are a lot of mobile operators, which makes it very unlikely that they can collude on high prices. Most likely there will be an shift in the industry's organizational landscape from country-wide four- or five-firm oligopolies into a more integrated continent-wide model. The largest obstacle for this to happen is that while no roaming charges may apply yet, we still have higher prices for international calls within the EU. These would need to go if we want to see a single market in Europe for mobile telephony, and to be honest, it should have happened years ago. Perhaps with the elimination of roaming charges the largest emerging mobile operators, who now have nothing to lose, will push for a single market.

    10. Re:Cynicism by jalopezp · · Score: 1

      It will result in some added accounting expense for the companies. Part of the idea is to integrate the fragmented telephony market into a single Europe-wide one.

    11. Re:Cynicism by nospam007 · · Score: 1

      "would the use of an Orange network in country A by a customer from country B not result in at least some added accounting expense..."

      About the same as a network in country B by a customer from country A.
      The costs cancel each other out.

      When they don't have to meter and bill the customers they'll have a net plus.

    12. Re:Cynicism by CRCulver · · Score: 1

      The costs cancel each other out.

      How do you know that? I think it is pretty obvious that, say, more customers from Orange Romania visit the territory of Orange France than vice-versa.

      And this new legislation will change nothing of the way that operators are legally registered.

    13. Re:Cynicism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Roaming charges are not what you think they are then.

      Roaming is the most highly profitable part of a mobile carrier's income, because not every carrier can cover every square kilometer with service. The difference with the EU, unlike the US, is that one carrier often can cover the entire country, but not the entire EU. Euro's are accustomed to owning multiple SIM cards in unlocked phones. In the US the only roaming that happens is between the US and Canada or the US and the Caribbean. While certainly some roaming happens between the US and Mexico, it's not part of the NANPA, so Mexico is actually considered "international" roaming while US/CA/Caribbean is considered national roaming.

      All MVNO's operate on a wholesale cost which is a different price from roaming charges. If all roaming charges are eliminated, then MVNO's are put out of business, as there is no incentive to use a MVNO when it's cheaper to just use the carrier directly. To be fair, most MVNO's are prepaid carriers anyway, while most mobile carriers have their own prepaid brand. So it ultimately is a question of who benefits.

      Canada recently told the carriers (who all collude to keep prices high) that roaming rates are to be capped. "The roaming rates that Canada's largest wireless companies are charging other domestic providers can be more than 10 times what they charge their own customers"

      Ultimately I think this is what the EU solution is trying to solve as well.

    14. Re:Cynicism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The rates are largely set by the market - if they could get away with raising their standard rates, don't you think they would have already done so?

      Sorta, what you charge should be as close to MR=MC as possible (not as easy to figure out when there are 50 competitors). Yes it is possible to make too much money (as my econ teacher from 25 years ago put it to me). Then spent the next few weeks showing us how and why. You actually hurt yourself and leave money on the table.

      Now this works if you have many competitors. If you only have 1 or 4 (as we have in the states) you pick the spot which extracts you the max profit as you own the whole audience and the demand curve is fairly vertical and MR=MC is easy to figure out.

    15. Re:Cynicism by bickerdyke · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Sorry, but that's the internal business of orange or Vodafone.

      There WAS a reason, back when phone companies were indeed seperate companies, so the roaming costs were justified for those additional costs for both inter-company and inter-country accounting and banking.

      But the EU did as much as they could to get rid of those additional costs for international business. A company (in ANY business down to a family plumbing business!) can now serve the whole of europe without worrying about different tax, costumer protection, safety, or pipe-gauge regulations. The even invented a whole new currency for a bunch of countries, just to make business easier.

      At the same time, a wave of mergers hit the cellphone market with a few big players being active in every european country. ALSO to save money and getting rid of that internal accounting.

      If they're still loosing money for "coordinating internal records", it's their own fault and nothing that would justify roaming charges.

      --
      bickerdyke
    16. Re:Cynicism by TheDarkMaster · · Score: 2

      Also, you're ignoring a 4th option: they might actually make more money by having reasonable roaming charges.

      It is a very good option, but she has no place in current sociopathic way of thinking of corporations. Currently they only use the option that brings maximum profit in minimum time, no matter the consequences.

      --
      Religion: The greatest weapon of mass destruction of all time
    17. Re:Cynicism by raju1kabir · · Score: 4, Insightful

      increased usage means more cost for the provider. How does that offset the income loss?

      Let's say the carrier currently charges EUR 1/MB for a service that costs them EUR 0.02/MB to provide, and customers use 1 million megabytes. That's EUR 20,000 in costs and EUR 980,000 in profit.

      Then they are forced to charge their domestic rate of EUR 0.10/MB for roaming data, and customers stop being stingy and use 20 million megabytes. That's EUR 400,000 in costs and EUR 1,600,000 in profit.

      Obviously these numbers are plucked straight from my ass but surely you can see how it's possible. Roaming charges are almost pure profit as it is, and that's only possible because we're a captive market.

      P.S. What is up with Slashdot still not being able to display the Euro symbol (â)? This is 2014, isn't it?

      --
      "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." -- GBS
    18. Re:Cynicism by LQ · · Score: 2

      Option C : Mobile providers raise the standard charges more than necessary and justify the raise saying ordinary people need to pay for the yuppies who roam Europe in their sports cars while chatting on their phones

      Or low paid workers going abroad to find work can afford to phone home. Or workers who commute across borders don't have to turn their phones off.

    19. Re:Cynicism by Joce640k · · Score: 1

      Dude, increased usage means more cost for the provider. How does that offset the income loss? Unless, of course, a subscriber goes over whatever BS limits the carrier has imposed?

      Not really. It all evens out. If I'm abroad then I'm not connected to a cell tower in my home country.

      --
      No sig today...
    20. Re:Cynicism by Joce640k · · Score: 2

      Also, you're ignoring a 4th option: they might actually make more money by having reasonable roaming charges.

      This bill is about not having *any* roaming charges. You pay the same abroad as you do at home.

      --
      No sig today...
    21. Re:Cynicism by Sockatume · · Score: 1

      They started out by offering free roaming onto the other "3" subsidiaries in other countries (which are actually different companies in the same parent group). I guess they noticed how this encouraged people to actually spend money while roaming.

      --
      No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
    22. Re:Cynicism by jittles · · Score: 1

      My mobile provider (3, in the UK) has started rolling out a thing that lets you use your inclusive minutes and data allowance in other countries without any extra charge (the costs if you go over those limits are pretty dire). It was actually cheaper for me to use data on my mobile when I visit the US than it was for the people I was visiting, on my last trip. I think they've seen the writing on the wall and started making these agreements long before they were needed. They're able to do this and charge 3p/minute for calls, 2p/text and 1p/MB for data (pre-pay - if you get a bundle and buy in bulk then things are cheaper, but the bundles are time limited).

      Just got back from a trip out of the US. With T-mobile I had free text and data in three different countries but the cost for a voice call was $0.20 a minute. Of course, with free data, I could use my voip service to make calls at $0.01 per minute.

    23. Re:Cynicism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "The rates are largely set by the market - if they could get away with raising their standard rates, don't you think they would have already done so?"

      I would argue that they have done so. In the EU, or the Netherlands at least, mobile operators charge ridicilous (per-message or via subscription bundles) fees for SMS messaging. This is what made "Whatsapp" hugely popular and managed to by and large completely replace SMS messaging (which is now reduced to something you merely use to message your grandma who hasn't found out about Whatsapp yet). This sudden loss of income caused one of the largest Dutch mobile operators KPN to play with the idea of charging extra fees for users of Whatsapp and other internet instant messaging solutions which caused such outrage that politicians got involved and started working on NN, which has now reached the EP. I think our current NN regulation still allows packet shaping/bandwidth management to improve the quality ofthe network and allow for things like higher reliability for some services.

      I really do not feel that the internet/mobile operator market (in The Netherlands) is healthy enough that this is something the government principally shouldn't be allowed to regulate to some degree. There's only one cable network infrastructure in The Netherlands operated by two large companies (Ziggo/UPC), and the DSL infrastructure has been privatized and is owned by KPN now, who for the most part has bought up and owns all DSL operators, making the laws that are in-place to allow third-party use of the DSL infrastructure mostly obsolete. Ziggo is about to be acquired by UPC reducing the number of cable operators to exactly one. Mobile operators are plenty (tho many bought up and owned by KPN) but like cable/DSL it's hard for newcomers to get on the market due to the required infrastructure/limited spectrum and those that do are likely to get bought up as well.

    24. Re:Cynicism by tsa · · Score: 1

      Apparently it doesn't work that way or we would not have had roaming charges and the EU would not have to force them upon the providers.

      --

      -- Cheers!

    25. Re:Cynicism by Xrikcus · · Score: 1

      Even roaming charges in countries not covered by that scheme are better. I maintain a 3 phone on a UK number even though I live in the US, partly because it's a way to keep the number I've had for 15 years, and partly because it is just cheaper to use in all countries other than the US. At the moment it's even cheaper to use IN the US if calling the UK, as you point out.

    26. Re:Cynicism by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      The accounting expenses will be exactly the same like they are right now.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    27. Re:Cynicism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The rates are largely set by the market

      By which you mean the cell carriers, who essentially gouge as much as they can until customers squeal too loudly.

      Then they back off a little, wait a few months, and raise the prices.

      Every time someone says the prices are set by the market, I cringe. Because generally whatever cartel controls that market is who really sets the prices.

      The free market is a myth. A fiction. A fantasy.

    28. Re:Cynicism by j'vai · · Score: 1

      aaah, that explains truphone's crazy charges in the central, south, & the carribeans..

      this is wishful thinking in the dark, but i pray what's happening with this EU no roaming thingy ties with what's about to happen here in the US -

      http://www.cnet.com/news/sprint-to-join-rural-operators-in-nationwide-roaming-hub/

      if sprint & softbank can push the envelope on this thing, & offer more dual mode handsets, (with sprint lightening up on their unlocking policy on the gsm sim side of those hansets) just, maybe, we can join in on the fun..

    29. Re:Cynicism by raju1kabir · · Score: 2

      Right, I forgot, markets invariably find optimal price points on their own, and regulation never helps anything. See you in church.

      --
      "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." -- GBS
    30. Re:Cynicism by FireFury03 · · Score: 1

      Also, you're ignoring a 4th option: they might actually make more money by having reasonable roaming charges.

      This bill is about not having *any* roaming charges. You pay the same abroad as you do at home.

      Yes, so they will make some money from me when I'm abroad, just as they do when I'm at home. Compared to, at the moment, them making nothing from me while I'm abroad.

    31. Re:Cynicism by RightSaidFred99 · · Score: 1

      They should have a +0: Wishful thinking moderation.

      If this were true, operators would have already stopped roaming charges because it's probably moderately expensive to track, bill, and maintain the infrastructure/software for it.

      I love it when people try to pretend "government knows best, it will help businesses!". Of course this will cost them money, don't be silly. They'll have to make it up somewhere else.

    32. Re:Cynicism by RightSaidFred99 · · Score: 1

      You crack me up.

      But you're right - the people who run these providers are _dumbasses_. They never thought of ending roaming charges as a way to _make_ money.

      Lolzers.

    33. Re:Cynicism by rkww · · Score: 3, Interesting

      They never thought of ending roaming charges as a way to _make_ money

      Except for Three UK who have already ended call roaming charges in eleven foreign countries - including the USA.

      And for certain packages they've removed data roaming charges too (subject to limits.)

      Incidentally 97 percent of their network traffic is data.

    34. Re:Cynicism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They should have a +0: Wishful thinking moderation.

      If this were true, operators would have already stopped roaming charges because it's probably moderately expensive to track, bill, and maintain the infrastructure/software for it.

      I love it when people try to pretend "government knows best, it will help businesses!". Of course this will cost them money, don't be silly. They'll have to make it up somewhere else.

      Government doesn't know best, I trust them as much or less as any other large corporation. The point is Government has different priorities.

      Regulation isn't about helping businesses. Monopolies help businesses, but suck completely for anyone else.

      Regulation is to help us, the average user, avoid having to support a 10,000% profit margin, or the choice of 'bad' and 'worse' service for 'too much money' or 'insane amounts of money'.

      I don't particularly care if changes to how much ISP's and telco's are allowed to screw their customers hurt the company's profit margin, if It means that I get the lower rates, and better service that I've been denied by the lack of competition their monopoly grants them.

    35. Re:Cynicism by raju1kabir · · Score: 1

      Your argument seems to require that every phone company is already making the most money that it possibly can. One wonders why they ever hire consultants or make any changes to management.

      --
      "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." -- GBS
    36. Re:Cynicism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Does this ( € ) not look like a Euro symbol to you?

    37. Re:Cynicism by raju1kabir · · Score: 1

      Ah, I see, you have to use the HTML entity rather than typing the character directly: €

      That seems odd for a page that was sent with a UTF-8 character set indication in the headers. If you send the â character in the form it gets mangled, which is something I would have expected to happen on a site last updated in 1998, before anyone thought about encodings.

      --
      "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." -- GBS
    38. Re:Cynicism by Anne+Thwacks · · Score: 1
      In the EU, the same operators operate in all the countries. It just they set up this scam in the olden days, when life was different. Nowadays, most sane people get a new SIM as they cross the boarder, and do their best not to make calls with the one from the previous country, leading to a massive reduction in potential revenue for the carriers.

      The companies are run by a bunch of doped sloths who do not want to get their act together, even if it would benefit the shareholders as much as the customers, because they would have to get off their fat butts and manage some work.

      The EU government spend all their time travelling between European countries (on our tab) and are well aware that they, personally, are the victims of this crap behaviour, and are in a position to defend consumers - cos they are the consumers most exposed.

      Hint: politicians tend to act in their own best interests. Sometimes our interests just happen to coincide.

      --
      Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
    39. Re:Cynicism by 91degrees · · Score: 1

      If this were true, operators would have already stopped roaming charges because it's probably moderately expensive to track, bill, and maintain the infrastructure/software for it.

      The only way they could find out if this was true would be by taking the risk. Why would they do that if they are profitable? Executives in big companies are quite risk averse.

      Of course this will cost them money, don't be silly. They'll have to make it up somewhere else.

      It may well do so. My suggestion was speculation. But how will they make it up elsewhere? Their prices are presumably set at the rate where profit-per-customer x number of customers is optimised. If they could make more money by increasing prices they'd increase prices.

    40. Re:Cynicism by Joce640k · · Score: 1

      But they'll make a lot less from the people who travel with company phones and don't give a damn about the phone bill.

      --
      No sig today...
    41. Re:Cynicism by rHBa · · Score: 1

      As a Brit who lives in France I'm quite pleased about this proposal.

      The cost of mobile tariffs in the UK is considerably less than in France but if I used a UK SIM card in France it would cost me more than having a French SIM.

      If the UK operators had to charge me the same price to use my UK SIM card in France then I'd just get a UK SIM card and save money.

      BTW, I'm not talking about international calls, I'm aware that these would still be expensive.

  4. Touristy places will be in for a surprise.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well, I'll be interested in seeing what coverage tourist hotspots will have in the future.. The incumbent operators will have little or no incetive to build out their network capacity/coverage, since the need to upgrade capacity is mainly driven by tourists. Which they will not make much money off anymore.

    1. Re:Touristy places will be in for a surprise.. by TBerben · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Tourists either switch off their phones, or put them in flight mode, because of the exorbitant roaming charges they would otherwise make. I doubt they make up a significant portion of the operators' income. Your argument is easily reversed: the operators might experience an increase in revenue, once tourists actually start using their phones abroad.

    2. Re:Touristy places will be in for a surprise.. by HetMes · · Score: 1

      Would you go to a tourist place where your internet that you intend to use to keep in touch with home sucks? Maybe you will, but how many like you?

    3. Re:Touristy places will be in for a surprise.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Well, I'll be interested in seeing what coverage tourist hotspots will have in the future.. The incumbent operators will have little or no incetive to build out their network capacity/coverage, since the need to upgrade capacity is mainly driven by tourists. Which they will not make much money off anymore.

      Tell me something, are americans subject to roaming charges when going from California to Nevada ? Or Utah ? Or Arizona ? Or Florida ?
      For the EU it's the same thing. Although we are not a federation, and telco companies still think in terms of nation states, one reason for the being of the EU was a common market. And in a common market you cannot have roaming charges just because you happen to go from France to Italy or Germany for example.

    4. Re:Touristy places will be in for a surprise.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The incumbent operators will have little or no incetive to build out their network capacity/coverage, since the need to upgrade capacity is mainly driven by tourists.

      Operators don't depend on tourists to upgrade capacity, they undertake such initiatives because they know that more and more local residents are willing to pay for data contracts (or prepay with data included). I've watched higher mobile bandwidth get rolled across whole swathes of rural Eastern Europe where there is no tourist influx to speak of, because even in the villages people want to access Facebook on the go (or at home, using a mobile connection in lieu of fiber).

    5. Re:Touristy places will be in for a surprise.. by FireFury03 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Would you go to a tourist place where your internet that you intend to use to keep in touch with home sucks? Maybe you will, but how many like you?

      Yes, I would. Because oddly, when I'm on holiday I'm actually more interested in doing holiday type stuff than spending my time using the internet. Its useful *occasionally* (getting weather forecasts, etc.) but it's not a huge loss to not have it. Which is why I turn roaming data off on my phone when I go abroad and just use wifi hotspots in cafes, etc. on the occasions I want to use the internet.

    6. Re:Touristy places will be in for a surprise.. by Zocalo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That would be excellent if this happened, although unlikely given how much the local population that supports the tourist trade is likely to rely on that same mobile coverage. I go on vacation to *get away* from the daily grind, yet of late it has got to the point that you can't go anywhere without someone yakking on a mobile phone, and I go to some pretty out of the way places to try and make that happen. The absolute last thing you want to hear when you reach Everest Base Camp, slightly out of breath from the lack of oxygen and effort, and are just starting to take in the amazing view is:

      *Latest naff ringtone*
      "Hello...?"
      *pause*
      "Yes, I'm climbing Mount Everest!"

      It kind of ruins the moment, you know?

      --
      UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
    7. Re:Touristy places will be in for a surprise.. by 91degrees · · Score: 1

      While I largely agree, Google maps and translate can be pretty useful. And to a lesser degree, posting photos on social networks is nice, if not all that important.

    8. Re:Touristy places will be in for a surprise.. by LQ · · Score: 1

      Would you go to a tourist place where your internet that you intend to use to keep in touch with home sucks? Maybe you will, but how many like you?

      I know this is /. but do you choose your holiday destination on the connectivity?

    9. Re:Touristy places will be in for a surprise.. by raju1kabir · · Score: 1

      The incumbent operators will have little or no incetive to build out their network capacity/coverage, since the need to upgrade capacity is mainly driven by tourists.

      What are you talking about? There is almost no place on earth where the majority of phone traffic comes from tourists. Maybe airports.

      --
      "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." -- GBS
    10. Re:Touristy places will be in for a surprise.. by Joce640k · · Score: 1

      Tourists either switch off their phones, or put them in flight mode, because of the exorbitant roaming charges they would otherwise make. I doubt they make up a significant portion of the operators' income. Your argument is easily reversed: the operators might experience an increase in revenue, once tourists actually start using their phones abroad.

      Yep.

      This is karma for all the years they've been price-gouging people just because they cross a border for a few days.

      And it serves them right.

      A lot of them have been charging ridiculous amounts of money. Some of them even charge the recipient of the call as well as the caller - i.e. somebody calls you from a company account they don't pay the bill for and it costs you money to listen to them yakking for half an hour.

      --
      No sig today...
    11. Re:Touristy places will be in for a surprise.. by Joce640k · · Score: 1

      Would you go to a tourist place where your internet that you intend to use to keep in touch with home sucks? Maybe you will, but how many like you?

      This bill covers the European Union, a bunch of geographically-close first world countries.

      Internet coverage is usually better here than in the USA.

      --
      No sig today...
    12. Re:Touristy places will be in for a surprise.. by grahamm · · Score: 1

      Or even worse when you do not even leave your home country but your phone happens to connect to a mast in a neighbouring country.

    13. Re:Touristy places will be in for a surprise.. by Zebedeu · · Score: 1

      Yes, I would. Because oddly, when I'm on holiday I'm actually more interested in doing holiday type stuff than spending my time using the internet.

      I find I use the internet a lot more when I'm visiting some place than when I'm out and about in my own city - when I manage to find a convenient way to go online, which is rare.
      This is because in my home city I don't need to check my maps to know where I'm going, I don't care as much about the weather since if the weather turns I can always find something else to do, I don't need translation services nor do I need to look for a decent restaurant as often, and I don't need to be checking for hotels since I have my comfy bed waiting for me.
      I'm also a lot less active in social networks when I'm at home because there's a lot less interesting going on to justify posting.

      I don't mean to say that I'm glued to my phone when I'm on vacation. In fact it's the reverse: I can optimize my time by searching for what I want more efficiently and get back to tourisming.

    14. Re:Touristy places will be in for a surprise.. by FireFury03 · · Score: 2

      While I largely agree, Google maps and translate can be pretty useful. And to a lesser degree, posting photos on social networks is nice, if not all that important.

      I've found that preloading your tablet / phone with openstreetmap maps works extremely well - I spent 2 weeks navigating around the Canadian rockies with Osmand running on a tablet and had no problems. Posting photos on social networks can probably wait until you're within range of a wifi hotspot.

    15. Re:Touristy places will be in for a surprise.. by RotateLeftByte · · Score: 1

      It does happen and sometimes the costs can be severe.

      There is a small costal village in Kent that for a while had no UK mobile coverage. Instead they were connected to a French Carrier 22+ miles away. The uproar foced at least one UK carrier to put a basestation in the village. This ruling will eliminate the charges if you happen to connect to the french carrier

      I've been in Basel on the Swiss side yet my mobile insists on connecting to one of the French networks. This ruling won't stop roaming charges if your phone is registered in Switzerland.

      --
      I'd rather be riding my '63 Triumph T120.
    16. Re:Touristy places will be in for a surprise.. by houghi · · Score: 1

      And also do not forget that many telco's in Europe opperate in differnt countries.
      They even do not mind charging themselves as much as possible for interchange, so they can claim that the cost is real and that is the reason why they need to charge others at least as much.
      That way they have an excuse to charge a high amount to the customer.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    17. Re:Touristy places will be in for a surprise.. by GbrDead · · Score: 1

      Everest Base Camp i not a "pretty out of the way place", IMHO.

    18. Re:Touristy places will be in for a surprise.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd still take a moment to reflect on the quality of service provided TelecomTibet if that were me.
      After I clip that numpty upside the head of course.

    19. Re:Touristy places will be in for a surprise.. by macinnisrr · · Score: 1

      I live in Saskatchewan, Canada, and I get charged roaming if I go to another province. It sucks, and I hope we can pass similar legislation here.

    20. Re:Touristy places will be in for a surprise.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think I can claim some sort of record as "most inappropriate moment to receive a phone call as a tourist". I was visiting the demilitarized zone between North and South Korea (yes, they arrange visits there for tourists) and when everybody has gone through a million security checkpoints and you really do feel that creepy tension in the air as you're literally staring North Korean soldiers in the eye... That's when I receive a fucking telemarketer call from home!

      I think it startled people more than it annoyed them since for us civilians at least it was a really tense moment and we had received so many warnings how to behave, what we can and cannot photograph and how there were mines everywhere and signed waivers accepting the risks etc. And also been intentionally excited by the guides that tried to make us feel the tension even more to enhance the experience.

      At no point until then had I even thought of my phone and whilst it seemed so far away from Seoul, it was of course easily within range of South Korean networks. One of the scary things for SK is of course that Seoul is within artillery range from the NK side of the DMZ.

  5. No more roaming charges ? Thats great !! by arjun.jrao · · Score: 1

    I live in India and here too, the roaming charges are exorbitant. Though there are only a handful of operators, I see no technical reason why roaming charges should exist (Similar to how SMS has no implicit cost to the telecom, but we are charged anyways). I can only dream of a day where such a law will be passed in my country *No roaming charges* *Weep with joy*

    1. Re:No more roaming charges ? Thats great !! by mgcarley · · Score: 1

      Only a handful? There are 12 operators in India. Not MVNOs (which are technically illegal, although some are little more than additional brands established through Joint-Ventures with the bigger players, especially Tata) but operators with their own towers and licenses and all.

      There used to be 14 before Etisalat and that other one (Spice?) shut up shop... and with Loop now having been acquired that'll bring it down to 11... but compare that to say, China (3) or Russia (4) or even the US (effectively 5 if we do not include MVNOs) so India has A LOT of choice.

      And roaming charges are not exorbitant - paying under Rs1 per minute (close enough to US$0.01 that it doesn't matter) and the fact that you can easily switch to one of the many plans that allows you unlimited roaming to different states for under Rs100 (Rs62 to the $1 makes that less than $1.50 for a month) or in some cases even free -- OR if you're not from Mumbai or Delhi you can have service from BSNL and they have their IndiaOne tariff which gets rid of domestic roaming charges altogether... mobile services are some of the cheapest in the world. Even 3G back when it was released in India was about half the price (per GB) as compared to many developed countries, and prices have only gone down since then.

      Roaming charge citations:
      http://www.airtel.in/mobile/pr...
      https://www.vodafone.in/prepai...

      And even for international roaming, Vodafone has stuff like free incoming texts so if I'm out of the country I can receive an SMS about whatever and call back if it's urgent or write an email or Skype or whatever.

      What costs a lot in India? Data. Yes on mobile (because it's mobile, this is somewhat expected) but more-so on wired connectivity - that was my big shocker when I first moved there, and why I do what I do.

      --
      Founder & COO, Hayai India (hayai.in) / USA (hayaibroadband.com) // t: @mgcarley
    2. Re:No more roaming charges ? Thats great !! by mgcarley · · Score: 1

      In any case, I do happen to agree that domestic roaming charges and charges for incoming calls are stupid.

      --
      Founder & COO, Hayai India (hayai.in) / USA (hayaibroadband.com) // t: @mgcarley
  6. Well, that does it by NuAngel · · Score: 2

    I'm moving to Europe. The real parts, not the Russian parts.

    1. Re:Well, that does it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Interesting

      Since I'm european, I would like to inform you about a few things about the EU, in order for you not to take the wrong decision:

      A) Yes, the net-neutrality principle is going to be very strong, if the Council will approve the same text as the Parliament. However, I don't think this is the most important thing for mankind

      B) The EU is composed of 28 Nations. It's not a single nation. 28 different cultures, 25 different languages, several ethnic groups. See it as a giant NAFTA, rather than a "country"

      C) The entire economic policy is established by the EU Commission, whose members are picked by governments. It is notoriously submissive to lobbysts, no less than the american congress, probably more. For example, this very piece of legislation was far weaker when it was proposed by the Commission, luckily the Parliament has improved it, but it doesn't always happen

      D) Greece has been reduced to a third-world country because of EU's, ECB's and IMF's decisions. Even free vaccines have been cut. Spain, Portugal and Ireland are sharing a similar fate. Italy has also experienced a huge recession because of EU's policies.

      D) The 18 members of the eurozone lost their monetary sovereignity. The ECB basically follows the same policy as the old Bundesbank. They don't care about recessions, they don't care about speculative attacks against single eurozone countries, they just care about "price stability". They basically masturbate if the inflation rate is low. They saved private banks instead of countries. What would have happened to the american economy without the Federal Reserve's quantitative easing? Something like 1929, which is exactly what has been happening in europe recently

      E) The EU Parliament, which is the only democratically elected EU institution, has fewer powers than a normal parliament: it cannot propose new legislation, but only either approve, amend or veto bills drafted by the Council or the Commission, whose members are chosen by single national governments

      The 4 richest countries in europe, excluding Luxembourg (which is basically a meaningless tax haven), are all either outside the EU or the eurozone: Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Switzerland...
      Maybe that's not a coincidence.

      Think twice before coming here.

    2. Re:Well, that does it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Greece did it to themselves. You can't accuse EU for that, except for giving them money at all.

    3. Re:Well, that does it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wrong. They could have let Greece default on its debts. It would have been better for greek people, but not for european banks.

      Just compare the greeks with the argentinians (who defaulted on their debts 15 years ago), the latter are in far better shape. Obviously a default isn't something "good", but it's still better than 5 years of recession.

    4. Re:Well, that does it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm moving to Europe. The real parts, not the Russian parts.

      In Soviet Russia all European parts are Russian parts.

    5. Re:Well, that does it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not to mention that everything the EU does, begins with the words "EU forbids ..."

    6. Re:Well, that does it by johnsie · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The Argentinian economy is still a mess 15 years later. More than half the population there live in extreme poverty. You cannot blame the EU for the Irish and Greeks being irresponsible. That was their fault. They allowed it to happen. The people voted for governments who allowed it to happen. They took all the benefits and didn't pay attention to what was actually happening financially. Things would be alot worse if they, especially Ireland, hadn't received bailout money from EU countries. Greece were a wealthy country maybe a few thousand years ago, but they were pretty poor before this crisis and should never have borrowed such money. Going down the Argentina route wouldn't have helped in any way.

    7. Re:Well, that does it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wrong. Check the IMF's online database, and you'll find out that Argentina's real per-capita GDP has actually increased since 2001, when they defaulted. So either they were in "extreme poverty" even before, or they aren't now.

    8. Re:Well, that does it by Sique · · Score: 4, Insightful
      In a free country, everything the government does, can be spelled as "The goverment forbids...", because in a free country, everything is allowed except for the things that are explicitely forbidden.

      Only if it was forbidden before, the government actually can allow something.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    9. Re:Well, that does it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The Greek government scammed Greece into the EMU with the assistance of Goldman Sachs, JPMorgan Chase and numerous other banks. Financial products were developed which enabled the government of Greece to hide their borrowing.
      Greek government-debt crisis

      Greece was a third world country that posed as a first world one and got itself into all this trouble.
      If the Greek government hadn't scammed Greece into the EMU it would have had its own currency and could have default on its debts.

    10. Re:Well, that does it by inasity_rules · · Score: 1

      You must drive a Lada.

      --
      I have determined that my sig is indeterminate.
    11. Re:Well, that does it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      A) Good thing
      B) How does that even matter when someone would like to move to the EU?
      C) So the Commissions proposed a law, and the Parliament made changes to that law to make things better for the EU-population. Seems to work great I'd say.
      D) Greece, Spain, Portugal & Ireland went bankrupt because their national governments fucked things up. If the EU, ECB & IMF would not have gotten involved the economies of those countries would have been destroyed by speculants. The problem there was not enough control by the EU instead of too much control.
      D) Monetary sovereingity of small countries like most in the EU means nothing in a globalised world. When the Euro was in problems, speculants tried to devalue it as much as possible for profit. Individual countries would have never been able to stand up to that.
      E) In most countries ministers are also not democratically elected but are chosen from the members of the ruling parties, and are also the ones creating and changing laws.

    12. Re:Well, that does it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In a free country, everything the government does, can be spelled as "The goverment forbids...", because in a free country, everything is allowed except for the things that are explicitely forbidden.
      Only if it was forbidden before, the government actually can allow something.

      That explains why the land of the free cannot allow gay marriage.

    13. Re:Well, that does it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The most stable currency on the planet is the swiss franc, and it comes from such a tiny country. And "speculants" had a huge party with the euro in place. Finally, as Argentina proves, sometimes a default is better than a dramatic and neverending austerity-driven economic decay.

      You have the same knowledge of economics as a McDonald's assistant.

    14. Re:Well, that does it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fine. Tell these stories to the european voters. According to several polls, anti-EU movements are going to get 20-30% of the EU Parliament's seats in the next EU elections to be held on May 25th: Front National from France, Five-Star Movement from Italy, Syriza from Greece, UKIP from the UK, AfD from Germany, True Finns from Finland, Wilder's party from the Netherlands, and many others.

      Think about what would happen if roughly a third of the american congress was controlled by parties or movements that actually want to dismantle the USA. Wouldn't it be funny?

    15. Re:Well, that does it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      True Finns from Finland

      Hello from Finland. The Perussuomalaiset (True Finns) are mainly an anti-brown-people-immigration party. They have never formulated a coherent policy on the EU in general, and support among the Finnish population for doing away with the euro, Erasmus, Schengen, labour mobility, etc. is extremely low even among True Finns voters (many of whom do not care for the party but want to send a message to the major parties which, they feel, have got too comfortable with the status quo).

    16. Re:Well, that does it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So I guess that wikipedia is wrong...?

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    17. Re:Well, that does it by Arker · · Score: 1

      "Yes, the net-neutrality principle is going to be very strong, if the Council will approve the same text as the Parliament. However, I don't think this is the most important thing for mankind."

      It's certainly better than the alternative.

      "What would have happened to the american economy without the Federal Reserve's quantitative easing?"

      A market correction, liquidation of bad investments, and restructuring allowing for the economy to really grow again.

      Unfortunately the EU equivalent is much more like the Fed than you give them credit for, however.

      --
      =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
      Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
    18. Re:Well, that does it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      D) Greece has been reduced to a third-world country because of EU's, ECB's and IMF's decisions. Even free vaccines have been cut. Spain, Portugal and Ireland are sharing a similar fate. Italy has also experienced a huge recession because of EU's policies.

      That's just over-exaggerated. Having just come back from a week's holiday to Portgual and Spain (from the UK), their standard of living doesn't seem anywhere near a third-world country. The supermarkets stock exactly the same type of things as they do in France and here in the UK, the roads are well-maintained (both toll and non-toll), the hotels are absolutely fine, as are the (non touristy) places I went to visit. The only signs of a troubled ecoonmy that I saw were some abandoned house-building projects in the south of Spain. Aside from that, as a visitor you really wouldn't know those countries were having problems with their economies...

    19. Re:Well, that does it by Alioth · · Score: 2

      Greece did it to themselves, but the EU in its breathless rush to get the Euro under way also decided to ignore the fact that Greece didn't qualify for the Euro under their own rules and let them in anyway. Greece being allowed into the Euro has caused Greece a lot of pain (and caused the eurozone plenty of problems).

    20. Re:Well, that does it by jonfr · · Score: 1

      > D) Greece has been reduced to a third-world country because of EU's, ECB's and IMF's decisions. Even free vaccines have been cut. Spain, Portugal and Ireland are sharing a similar fate. Italy has also experienced a huge recession because of EU's policies.

      Greece did this to them self. I also want to point out that health care related matters are not subject to EU rules or laws. Expect when it comes to travellers and tourists getting health care if they need to via the EU blue health card. As for Spain, Portugal and Ireland. They are all recovering. If you want to know why this happens you have to ask your bank (if it is an big international bank, but ask anyway if its your local bank. He may have taken part in this too).

    21. Re:Well, that does it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you just list the few good things about EU and euro and forget all the rest of the crap about EU and then conclude that everybody wants to be in EU. Also just because there are few bad apples or assholes in a party doesn't make the whole party bad. Don't try to twist things into being what you might dream off.

    22. Re:Well, that does it by Too+Much+Noise · · Score: 1

      The most stable currency on the planet is the swiss franc

      Shows what you know - the Swiss National Bank has maintained for the last few years an official 1.20 peg on EURCHF, by not letting the CHF appreciate more than that wrt EUR. Quite a remarkable thing, considering all the speculator howling at the time the peg was announced, basically everyone and their dog predicting a broken peg in a matter of months.

      Regardless, that makes the CHF pretty much as stable as the EUR, so maybe you should reconsider looking down your nose on the economic knowledge of McD assistants. Vanity is such a funny thing, wouldn't you agree?

    23. Re:Well, that does it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > The most stable currency on the planet is the swiss franc

      What? Look at the exchange rates for it, e.g. USD to CHF compared to USD to EUR (or pick whatever you want). High to low for the first is around 1.26 vs. 1.62 for the second. I don't think the picture changes all that much if you compare to either other currencies, raw materials, ... (mostly due to basically none of that being traded in CHF anyway).
      The swiss are the only ones who recently had introduce "negative interest" to keep their currency at least halfway at bay and stop it from crashing their economy.
      If you meant that it is a currency where the value usually goes up during a crises, yes you are right. But that is very much not the same as stable.

    24. Re:Well, that does it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey McD assistant,

      the peg was established because the euro and the dollar were dramatically devaluating against the swiss franc: it was TOO STRONG, not the other way around. And swiss exports would have been destroyed otherwise. Which proves exactly what I was saying: no correlation between size and speculative attacks.

    25. Re:Well, that does it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Firstly, what you just wrote actually proves that the dollar is unstable, not CHF. Secondly, the metric you used makes no sense, because over the last few years CHF has been pegged to the euro.

      That said, the point was that a tiny country like switzerland doesn't necessarily need to be in a big currency zone. Just like Norway or Denmark.

    26. Re:Well, that does it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I also want to point out that health care related matters are not subject to EU rules or laws.

      Except that budget cuts are, and public healthcare isn't paid for with peanuts. What an intelligent statement... As for the other countries, living standards have dramatically deteriorated there. It's quite easy to "recover" when you cannot be any worse.

      Anyways, the "EU problem" will solve itself with the general election in May. It will be so much fun to try to pass any legislation in a parliament whose members will be 1/3 anti-EU, and the other 2/3 from two rival parties.

      The EU has been a social and financial experiment carried out by banks and lobbysts. It failed.

    27. Re:Well, that does it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, really? Well, if you go to the Maldives, you wouldn't say it's third world either.

    28. Re:Well, that does it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hahahaha. Right. Except you got your facts twisted a bit. CHF was *ahem* too strong because of the QE going on in US and EU. The peg is more or less SNB's version of QE - with a target of a fx rate instead of that of a yield curve. Remember, if you paid attention at the time, SNB tried a few times to target the CHF Libor and failed rather badly (hence the initial skeptiism about their peg). Regardless, your statement about current CHF strength is meaningless, where 'current' is defined as 'last several years'. Please send my greetings to the past while you're in it.

      You could have said the same nonsense about the JPY - strongest currency ever, a while ago, i.e. pre Abe QE. Even better that the CHF for carry trade (which is what amplified the 'strength' you're so fond of) since BoJ does not have the direct intervention mandate that would allow straight-out monetization. Well, look at how that turned out.

      Basically you're mistaking 'we're not devaluating as fast as the others yet' for strength here. Do get off your high horse.

    29. Re:Well, that does it by Ash-Fox · · Score: 1

      Greece did it to themselves.

      No, the European Union prevented Greece from resolving their situation by detatching from the Euro currency so they could have their own and devalue their currency (like Iceland did recently) - Now Iceland is thriving again, Greece is not.

      When Greece attempted to do so, they removed the democratically elected leader and replaced him with a puppet. The country that brought democracy to the world...

      --
      Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
    30. Re:Well, that does it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can keep whining as much as you want, the more you post, the more you prove what I was saying, and you probably cannot even realize that: there is no correlation between currency speculation and country size. That was the point. If you didn't understand what the discussion was about, you should have avoided posting.

      And by the way, even if it's off-topic: the swiss franc has always been "strong", and not only because of the Fed's QE. Until 14 years ago it was even pegged to gold. Only an retard would choose USD over CHF as a long-term "safe heaven", it's like comparing toilet paper with jewellery.

    31. Re:Well, that does it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Having visited Finland recently, I now think most infrastructure in the UK looks like a third world country. Not to mention how most people live.

      I don't even pretend to understand how the Euro has affected European economies.

    32. Re:Well, that does it by jonfr · · Score: 1

      You do not know your history. Go look it up. EU has an history for almost 60 years as it currently stands (predecessor did go under other names).

  7. This is incorrect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Having worked in the roaming business for GSM operators, I have been told stories of how a 15 people department secured 50% of a certain client company's profits. Yup. That was the roaming department managing and implementing all the bilateral roaming agreements.

  8. *you* would be surprised by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...how much money the (European, at least) GSM operators make on roaming. If you saw the numbers.

    1. Re:*you* would be surprised by Alioth · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't be after one of our managers managed to run up (without realising) a bill of nearly 2 grand's worth of roaming charges when they went to the UK. That was just their phone polling for email.

    2. Re:*you* would be surprised by Freultwah · · Score: 1

      There are limits to how large a bill you can run up with data roaming. Right now, the cap is at 50 euros per billing period. http://www.theguardian.com/mon...

  9. It takes more than that. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When each ISP is a local monopoly, then there is no market. If every home had a choice of a dozen ISPs, there would be no need for NN. NN is needed to prevent ISPs from abusing their monopoly power.

    In the USA, you'd need more than just a dozen nominally different ISPs. You'd need these ISPs to be truly independent, rather than simply different masks laid over the same set of functionally identical 1% ruling class predators. You'd need a culture that rewards progress, rather than one that permits a hereditary ruling class to establish strong legal barriers to free market functions.

  10. Slow speeds, hah! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Where I am, there technically are choices. Satellite (slow and unreliable), cellular (expensive for any reasonable amount of use), cable (if you can deal with the cable company, and its notoriously unreliable here), phone DSL (slow, but reliable). I have the DSL, and I pay for the slowest possible connection -- 6 megs. What I get is 1.5. I'm inside the city limits, just too far away from everything.

    Then again, they're talking about gigabit to the home over fiber. Unless, of course, someone complains that the city utility is preventing competition.

  11. Where roaming fees come from by Sockatume · · Score: 2

    There's little actual cost involved in facilitating roaming. What happens is that every network charges the others high roaming charges, and nobody has any incentive to be the first one to drop and therefore lose the money.

    --
    No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
    1. Re:Where roaming fees come from by Anne+Thwacks · · Score: 1

      Except that its exactly the same carriers in all the EU countries! They are charging themselves for these charges. Its complete bullshit.

      --
      Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
  12. owning a truphone sim by j'vai · · Score: 2

    I wondered how this would affect their rates, then a google search produced -

    http://www.bizjournals.com/triad/prnewswire/press_releases/North_Carolina/2014/04/02/LA96177

    Cool for those that frequent travel over the pond often, but, for the carribeans, south, central americas, no love -

    $1.71per min outgoing calls
    $1.13per min incoming calls
    $0.51per SMS
      $8.57per MB

    If you're one who vacation frequently in these spots, & may have to overcome the language & time barriers upon stepping off the plane, the truphone sim, is good ONLY for a quick fast, until you can land a local prepaid sim, which may take & communicational effort..

    I'm thinking at worst, in place such as St Martin, where the island is divided on ither side with cell provider coverage (I think digicel's trying to change that), the work hunting down & obtaining a prepaid sim when you switch sides from French to Dutch..

    the roaming charges of carriers, are akin to interests charges of financial institutes..

  13. Actually by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 1

    This is basically the EU saying "you've shown you can't be trusted to not take the piss, so we're taking your ball and going home".

    FTFY

  14. Depends where you are. by Chozabu · · Score: 1

    last time I was in hull, there was only one choice.

    1. Re:Depends where you are. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      KC are like Virgin Media, a monopoly and government doesn't care to enforce competition rules like they do for BT.

      See http://www.telecomsinhull.co.uk/

  15. So? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's called competition and clearly there's something in it for them as they can operate.

  16. Also Ban Mandatory TV Licensing by Froggels · · Score: 1

    It's nice to see Brussels actually making itself useful. Next they should work at banning mandatory TV licensing which is obnoxious and should not exist in the 21st century.