Slashdot Mirror


GM Names Names, Suspends Two Engineers Over Ignition-Switch Safety

cartechboy (2660665) writes "GM said it has placed two engineers on paid leave in connection with its massive recall probe of 2 million vehicles. Now, GM is asking NASA to advise on whether those cars are safe to drive even with the ignition key alone. Significantly, individual engineers now have their names in print and face a raft of inquiries what they did or didn't know, did or didn't do, and when. A vulnerability for GM: One engineer may have tried to re-engineer the faulty ignition switch without changing the part number—an unheard-of practice in the industry. Is it a good thing that people who engineer for a living can now get their names on national news for parts designed 10 years ago? The next time your mail goes down, should we know the name of the guy whose code flaw may have caused that?"

236 comments

  1. Hero ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    What follows is my baseless personal opinion based only on what I see at similar businesses ---
    The engineer that changed the part without changing the part number and without management knowing intentionally did it behind their back because management wouldn't let him make the change. Everyone knew about the problem. Management knew changing the part was akin to admitting the fault. The engineer did it on his own to save lives - company be damned. And he kept the part number the same so that no one would know.

    1. Re:Hero ? by gnoshi · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Changing part without changing part number is something which the engineer shouldn't have done. Sure, management wouldn't let him make the change and that is bad. However, by making a change without following the basic accepted procedures meant that sleuth work needed to be done to even identify that a change had been made. The engineer clearly did something wrong. That in no way reduces the responsibility of management for their decisions and the consequences of those decisions.

      That said, naming names of an engineer is a really bad precedent. What is the goal GM is trying to achieve here. Do they want people to go break the guy's windows? Burn down his house? Call him in the middle of the night or deliver pizza? Apart from potentially removing the guy's livelihood for the remainder of his life because no-one wants to hire 'that guy' ever again, and a lot of abuse being targeted his way, what will this achieve?

      If he did something criminal, then he should be charged. If he did something extremely incompetent then maybe membership of the engineering body should be revoked, but it isn't the place of GM to throw their engineers to the wolves.

    2. Re:Hero ? by wiredlogic · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Somebody in management had to sign off on the change and a whole lot of work had to be done to revise the tooling and approve the expenditures. This wasn't an invisible modification done by a sneaky engineer unbeknownst to higher levels of management. There is always a bottom to every hill and the shit stops rolling once it gets there.

      --
      I am becoming gerund, destroyer of verbs.
    3. Re:Hero ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Changing part without changing part number is something which the engineer shouldn't have done

      You don't get out much, do you? It's SOP in the hardware and software worlds. Unannounced patches and material changes go on *constantly*, even if you pay the extra buttload of money to get "mill-spec" parts which have all the paperwork saying that *no* changes have occurred. Think I'm kidding? Take a good look at all the stuff on Ebay with identical part numbers, but from bad runs of serial numbers with known to fail versions of components.

    4. Re:Hero ? by countach · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I disagree. Assuming this hypothesis, it was better he make the change and save lives... management, convention and rules be damned.

      Of course we don't really know if that what really happened.

    5. Re:Hero ? by thegarbz · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Not a hero. An engineer has a responsibility to act ethically. It's part of what makes the profession ... err professional. A cover up to save face of management is not something that should have been done under any circumstance.

    6. Re:Hero ? by TubeSteak · · Score: 3, Informative

      That said, naming names of an engineer is a really bad precedent. What is the goal GM is trying to achieve here. Do they want people to go break the guy's windows? Burn down his house? Call him in the middle of the night or deliver pizza? Apart from potentially removing the guy's livelihood for the remainder of his life because no-one wants to hire 'that guy' ever again, and a lot of abuse being targeted his way, what will this achieve?

      Why exactly is it a bad precedent?
      The names of everyone involved are going to come out anyways, with all the possible consequences you described.
      Our judicial system is usually exceedingly unwilling to pierce the corporate veil and directly hold bad actors responsible for their choices.
      So I'm perfectly happy with a society that aggressively shuns those people, regardless of judicial outcomes.

      I'm *guessing* GM's goal is to scapegoat a few responsible parties as early as possible,
      so that when the management failures are unmasked, there won't be as much heat and vitriol.

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    7. Re:Hero ? by khallow · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What is the goal GM is trying to achieve here.

      Create a scapegoat and deep six the visibility of the problem in the media. I don't buy at all that this problem can be narrowed down to two misbehaving engineers especially given what appears to be collusion on the regulatory government side (perhaps over both Obama and G. W. Bush's terms) to ignore the problem.

    8. Re:Hero ? by Grishnakh · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It was either that or just don't do the change at all, so that even more people would die. This is the problem with engineering: grandstanding fools like you sit in armchairs and say that engineers should "act ethically", but they're not allowed to by management, because they have zero power in the company, and are really nothing more than interchangeable cogs that management can replace at a whim. Management makes all the engineering decisions, but when something goes wrong, people want to blame the engineers.

    9. Re:Hero ? by flaming+error · · Score: 2

      Engineers have bosses. Sometimes in a complicated situation where there are no good answers, engineers do what their bosses say.

    10. Re:Hero ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Naming names shifts the blame from a whole culture of complicity and incompetence to a single person, who is much easier to hound and point fingers at than the 'leadership' (I use that term loosely) that is responsible.

    11. Re:Hero ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > The engineer that changed the part without changing the part number and without management knowing intentionally did it behind their back because management
      > wouldn't let him make the change.

      +1 (yep)

      I guess in case in this case the cost of doing a recall was less then probable rate of failure, B when multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C; So in this case engineers X & Y did their own.

    12. Re:Hero ? by CanadianMacFan · · Score: 1

      And if the engineer was stopped from making the changes then he should have gone to the proper regulatory officials with evidence of the cover up.

    13. Re:Hero ? by quarterbuck · · Score: 4, Informative

      As usual the Slashdot summary is incomplete on the verge of being incorrect.
      Reuters has a longer story that explains the background. Digrigio testified in the Senate that he did not know of the issue. Later senate dug up documents implying the opposite.Altman did something similar (but not nearly as bad) in front of a Jury.

      --
      http://slashdot.org/submission/1062723/Cheap-mobile-data-plan?art_pos=2
    14. Re:Hero ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Changing part without changing part number is something which the engineer shouldn't have done.

      Then the System needs to be changed to amplify this behavior. Blaming it on the engineer is the System's way out of being responsible for the outcomes it produces. Plenty of sleazy corporations do the same thing, financial companies in particular.

    15. Re:Hero ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And we've all seen how well whistleblowers have been treated lately.

    16. Re:Hero ? by pla · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Sure, management wouldn't let him make the change and that is bad.

      With this going so high that congress dragged the CEO in to lie to them that this involved anything more than "cheaper to let you die", by naming these two engineers, GM has just given them the power to completely ruin the company.

      "We tried to do the right thing and management thwarted us at every turn". Done in one, the CEO just perjured herself before congress, and the class action liability suits put GM (back) into bankruptcy (where they belong).

      Unfortunately in this case, engineers tend to have too strong of a "boyscout" streak in them, and the ones implicated here will probably just do their best to ignore the fact that GM just threw them under the bus for following orders.

      Or put another way - I don't work in an industry that seriously puts people's lives in danger, and legal would goose-step me out of the goddamned building before they let me do something like GM claims these two engineers did "on their own". So an entire multinational supply and manufacturing chain of command just quietly went along with the whims of two peons that massively violated protocol? Bullshit.

    17. Re:Hero ? by Webcommando · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Why exactly is it a bad precedent?

      So I'm perfectly happy with a society that aggressively shuns those people, regardless of judicial outcomes.

      IMHO, engineers have a hard job. They constantly need to manage trade-offs, complex concepts, and scope/schedule trade-offs. Sometimes they make mistakes. I've worked in design of automation equipment, enterprise software, and medical devices and in all cases there were the occasional mistakes. People forget to update a requirements document, a change order is approved but not implemented, a drawing rev number isn't updated before sending to vendor, a critical bug is mistakenly set to low, a vendor changes a part and someone uses the old data sheet, etc.. There are recalls all the time on products through honest mistakes people make. Should we call out each of these people individually?

      We would need to have a Google size site just to publish the name of every software engineer who introduced a bug into some software package. Everyone better step-up if we want to do that. I want the world to shun the individual who made a bad trade for my 401K, every person on a road crew who didn't finish a road project on time -- well, there are countless people who make mistakes who are nameless part of a bigger organization.

      --
      I love the sound of distortion in the morning -- webcommando
    18. Re:Hero ? by JimSadler · · Score: 1

      It is vital information in that if there is proof that GM tried to deliberately cover up the issue by not allowing a new part number to be assigned then punitive damages are in order. If it was simply bad practice the simple liability for the consequences is sufficient. Not only could the potential fines and suits run into the billions but a string of executives might be looking at serious prison sentences. Do we even know if the engineer had anything to do with assigning the part number?

    19. Re:Hero ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      As a Sr. Engineer, I can state that very few certified technical lead Engineers I have known would ever consent to such a modification without changing either the part number or revision number. However, there have been a number of times when hardware managers will not listen, since such a change has ramifications affecting a product's BOM, certifications, and various procurement/logistical processes.

      If there are liability consequences, my company will comply with the overhead. However, that is not the case with all companies.

    20. Re:Hero ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      True. And brilliantly ignorant.

    21. Re:Hero ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Engineers have bosses. Sometimes in a complicated situation where there are no good answers, engineers do what their bosses say.

      If you're in this kind of situation, always secretly record any interaction with a higher-up where you raise a problem, and are ordered to not fix it. Even if your state (or company rules) bans secret recording. Do it anyway.

      [Simple sound-activated voice recorders are available that can record dozens of hours of conversation, so you don't even have to remember to turn it on.]

      Then if the situation escalates where the penalty against you is worse than the penalty for making the recording, reveal the recordings.

    22. Re:Hero ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I disagree. Assuming this hypothesis, it was better he make the change and save lives... management, convention and rules be damned.

      Of course we don't really know if that what really happened.

      Yes, exactly. Assuming (this thing that you don't know), it was a good thing. Or, you know, not.

    23. Re:Hero ? by TubeSteak · · Score: 1, Redundant

      There are recalls all the time on products through honest mistakes people make. Should we call out each of these people individually?

      The engineer that designed the part and the replacement lied in front of a Senate Committee when asked if he knew there was a defect.
      The engineering manager was deposed in a lawsuit and said that GM made a business decision not to fix the defect.

      Those aren't honest mistakes. Those are "bad actors" I'm talking about
      People who intentionally do something wrong, don't fix something that is wrong, or cover up something that is/was wrong.

      Your entire post is arguing against a position I did not take.

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    24. Re:Hero ? by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 2

      a whole lot of work had to be done to revise the tooling

      Ah, so we need to name the machinists too! Charge the whole lot with a conspiracy to embarrass management!

      Somehow Harry Tuttle is probably involved.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    25. Re:Hero ? by sjames · · Score: 1

      Are you sure it was really them? Where was the checking? Were they ordered to make the compromise? Was it built as designed?

      What do you bet if any of those questions would absolve them it'll be yet another case of allegations making the headline and the exoneration makes page 23?

    26. Re:Hero ? by thegarbz · · Score: 1, Insightful

      No it was not either or. It is never either or. See part of this thing called ethics is to not act unethically at the request of others. It's part of the charter of being a professional engineer. If you can't say NO to the people who are paying you then you have absolutely no business being a professional engineer.

    27. Re:Hero ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      As a professionally licensed design engineer, we have a responsibility to the public in general. These two engineers, once the problem had been identified and middle management was preventing the fix from being implemented, should have sent an email to the CEO and copied the entire company mailing list highlighting the potential liability and risk of death and great bodily harm. I guarantee it would have been fixed, and a bunch of jackass middle management would have been out on their asses. If the warning was still ignored, the next stop is the press. They may or may not have lost their jobs, or they may have gotten a promotion, but either is far better than where they are now.

      Engineers in general are very conscientious as we have one of very few professions where our work makes us personally liable under the law and that liability cannot be transferred to a corporation (although the corporation may also be liable, and typically have deeper pockets.) This is one reason why, although spectacular (i.e. the Challenger shuttle explosion) it is very rare that middle management succeeds in hushing any serious safety flaws known to the engineers. As an engineer I would much rather be out of a job than on the hook for wrongful death, legally or morally. As for my next employer, if they are worth working for, they know the laws and know that engineers work for them but have a greater responsibility to society.

    28. Re:Hero ? by belmolis · · Score: 1

      What you are describing is the fact that software and to a considerable extent computer hardware do not follow standards comparable to those used in better established areas of engineering.

    29. Re:Hero ? by inasity_rules · · Score: 4, Informative

      Actually, the ethical course is to blow the whistle. Sure you will loose your job and probably never work again, but .... Yeah, there are no up-sides to this one...

      --
      I have determined that my sig is indeterminate.
    30. Re:Hero ? by erikkemperman · · Score: 1

      There are recalls all the time on products through honest mistakes people make. Should we call out each of these people individually?

      But what has happened here is they did NOT initiate a recall, though they knew enough about the problem to redesign the part. I have no idea how likely or unlikely it is that the named engineers were responsible for that, or even for not assigning a new part number, as opposed to their managers.

      If the latter turn out to be culpable, the names of the engineers should be seen in headlines once more, to clear their reputations.

      --
      Gosh, thanks. That must be why the other ships call me Meatfucker -- GCU Grey Area (Eccentric)
    31. Re:Hero ? by inasity_rules · · Score: 1

      This. Please mod parent up. AC is exactly right, except maybe about it getting fixed. The CEO isn't always clued up enough. Also, prior to the press, one should likely approach whatever government regulatory is appropriate in your country.

      The paper trail here is the important thing. That email, is critical.

      --
      I have determined that my sig is indeterminate.
    32. Re:Hero ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Somebody in management had to sign off....

      There is a reason why "Engineer" is a certification and a qualification and "Manager" is a job title. The manager could be any clown who worked in McDonalds before hand and is basically there because he talks good. The engineer is a government approved (yes; "regulated") person responsible for ensuring that what is done is engineering. If the engineer was a random guy from the street, the car company could get into deep trouble.

      Maybe he did the change without a revision number because management made him. In that case he'd better be able to show that they directly stopped him from changing the part number even though he wanted to or that there was a specific threat to his livelyhood if he didn't conform. He would still probably have been better to resign, but if he at least had recordings or emails showing that they deliberately and knowingly made him do something like this then he might reasonably be able to escape his responsibility.

    33. Re:Hero ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If he did something criminal, then he should be charged.

      He should not be charged if he did something criminal - his employer should be charged, even if they didn't know he did something criminal.

    34. Re:Hero ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      But ultimately it's the fault of the engineers collectively for not unionising because I'M SO SPECIAL AND CAN DO IT ALL ON MY OWN. If you fear losing your job by doing the right thing, there's something so fundamentally wrong with your relationship with your employer that you shouldn't be working there at all. Contrast: Germany.

    35. Re:Hero ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > What do suggest someone do when someone find fault with something and can not change it?

      They ring up the external, independent whistle-blowing organization the company hired for such cases.
      If GM did not have one, the uppermost management is the one who has to take full and complete responsibility for any such events, since obviously that is exactly the way they intended things to be.

    36. Re:Hero ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What machinist, they probably had to order half a new production line. "Management didn't know" is simply not possible with expenditures like that.

    37. Re:Hero ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      IMHO, engineers have a hard job. They constantly need to manage trade-offs, complex concepts, and scope/schedule trade-offs.

      IMHO, engineers have a hard job. They constantly need to manage trade-offs, complex concepts, and scope/schedule trade-offs and deal with clueless bumbling power-tripping management with unrealistic expectations on cost and deadlines.

      FTFY

    38. Re:Hero ? by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      [Mel Brooks] Hey, you said "trade-offs twice! [/]

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    39. Re:Hero ? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Changing part without changing part number is something which the engineer shouldn't have done.

      A single engineer can't do that alone. It takes collusion, probably by management.

      Sure, management wouldn't let him make the change and that is bad. However, by making a change without following the basic accepted procedures meant that sleuth work needed to be done to even identify that a change had been made.

      The question is whether some rogue engineer actually did this himself. And the question there is whether it is even possible. And it probably is not, since we're all just sitting here conjecturing.

      The engineer clearly did something wrong.

      It's not clear to me. Maybe an engineer completed a redesign, and someone else is responsible for it not getting a new part number?

      That in no way reduces the responsibility of management for their decisions and the consequences of those decisions.

      Every single person involved in the chain of decisions leading to this switch being released without a revised part number, which is the standard mode of operations, shares responsibility. And it can't be only one person. It simply can't be.

      That said, naming names of an engineer is a really bad precedent.

      No, no it really isn't, if he is guilty. Naming the names of all responsible parties is the best possible precedent. The thing is, it's not clear at this point who is actually responsible. I don't know about you, but GM is one of the last companies I would ever trust, based on a combination of bailout-failout and actually having worked on GM vehicles, which are designed to fail and be expensive to repair; and also having dealt with the GM parts department, which is designed to steal from you by only offering complete door mechanism kits when all you need is the handle itself, and numerous other examples. If GM says something went one way, I assume it went the other.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    40. Re:Hero ? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      The engineer that designed the part and the replacement lied in front of a Senate Committee when asked if he knew there was a defect.

      If he was asked to redesign the part because it was inadequate, then he's a liar. If he decided to redesign the part because he thought it might be inadequate, he isn't. The question is whether that's even feasible. In most companies people work on what they're told to work on. However, I have seen underutilized employees inventing work for themselves as well.

      The engineering manager was deposed in a lawsuit and said that GM made a business decision not to fix the defect.

      Well, GM is a typically evil corporations.

      The engineering manager was deposed in a lawsuit and said that GM made a business decision not to fix the defect.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    41. Re:Hero ? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      What machinist, they probably had to order half a new production line.

      There is absolutely no reason to believe that, all that was done was to make a little bit of metal a little less little. If the part by which it is held when it is placed into the switch didn't change, then odds are the only thing which had to change was a punch and die set in one machine in the production line.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    42. Re:Hero ? by drinkypoo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If you can't say NO to the people who are paying you then you have absolutely no business being a professional engineer.

      If you can't feed your children otherwise, you can't say no.

      If you fail economically, our society tells you that you are a failure. Ethics don't pay the bills.

      Maybe this guy is just feeding himself, I don't know. But society punishes the kind of ethics you're talking about. We clearly don't actually hold that value.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    43. Re:Hero ? by Trax3001BBS · · Score: 1

      That said, naming names of an engineer is a really bad precedent. What is the goal GM is trying to achieve here. Do they want people to go break the guy's windows? Burn down his house? Call him in the middle of the night or deliver pizza? Apart from potentially removing the guy's livelihood for the remainder of his life because no-one wants to hire 'that guy' ever again, and a lot of abuse being targeted his way, what will this achieve?

      In all fairness the company didn't name the employees.

      Reading the first article in the summery; right after they are named, the next paragraph has a link from "GM was first aware of a switch problem in 2001, then in 2004 Altman experienced the ignition-switch problem firsthand."

      Following that link it's mentioned:
      GM didn't identify the two suspended engineers, but people familiar with the matter said they are Ray DeGiorgio, the switch engineer for the small cars in the recall, and Gary Altman, the chief development engineer from 2000 to 2005 for the cars.

      Whew thought I had posted already - no need for you to search for a link - http://www.usatoday.com/story/...

    44. Re:Hero ? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Recorded letter/email to the management, followed by an anonymous letter to the government agency responsible for car safety if nothing is done. Also, look for a new job.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    45. Re:Hero ? by mixed_signal · · Score: 1

      You don't know he designed the replacement. The only documentation is that he signed off on validation of a new part revision from the supplier. This is why we need to let the investigation take it's course before deciding who's guilty and trashing people we don't even know based on news articles and assumptions ranted by lawmakers.

    46. Re:Hero ? by mixed_signal · · Score: 1

      The revision number did change according to the documentation linked in the article.

    47. Re:Hero ? by mixed_signal · · Score: 1

      No, they just swapped in a different Eaton plunger part, according the document linked from the article.

    48. Re:Hero ? by mixed_signal · · Score: 1

      Link from autonews article here: http://docs.house.gov/meetings...

    49. Re:Hero ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Based on what I've seen in the tech industry, there's no way in hell an engineer has the authority to make this kind of change without management approval. Anything that costs non-trivial (and we're talking buying lunch here, not retooling a production line) amounts of money does.

      This is just GM trying to throw a couple low-level engineers under the bus to get rid of a PR problem and protect the ass-monkeys who covered up the problem in the first place.

      And, of course, I fully expect them to get away with it.

    50. Re:Hero ? by mixed_signal · · Score: 1

      Link from autonews article here: http://docs.house.gov/meetings...

    51. Re:Hero ? by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Even though it seems like it sometimes, this is not some third world dictatorship. We only criminally prosecute people who took part in the claimef violation of the law- not someone whos connectiom seems to be innocent of the violation but not likable for whatever reason. To do otherwise goes against ghe entire concept of innocent until proven guilty.

    52. Re:Hero ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Baseless, indeed. I find it highly improbable that a rogue engineer can redesign a part and *produce* and *install* it without *anyone* noticing.

      Can you spell "scapegoat"?

    53. Re:Hero ? by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 1

      Management knew changing the part was akin to admitting the fault. The engineer did it on his own to save lives - company be damned.

      And by betraying the sacred orders of management, and placing the safety and lives of fellow moochers above the right and holy profits due to his Executive betters, this man has betrayed the Almighty Market in word, deed, and heart, and his treachery must be uncovered, defamed, and justly punished as an example to all who would turn against the Word of Galt.

      See you in the Club.

      --
      May the Maths Be with you!
    54. Re:Hero ? by PRMan · · Score: 1

      No, you make notes from the tape and record those as being, "From your memory".

      --
      Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
    55. Re:Hero ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      However, there have been a number of times when hardware managers will not listen.

      Write a mail saying "please sir; it's the official safety procedure to change the number; I would really like to"; he will say "no; I don't think it's needed in this case. Then go up to his office with a small recorder mounted and tell him about horrible accidents that have happened and record him as he yells and starts threatening you. At that point what you do is your choice depending on whether you can justify saying you couldn't trust the whistleblower procedures and so on. At the very least the blame will land on your manager if it all goes wrong.

    56. Re:Hero ? by kelemvor4 · · Score: 1

      That said, naming names of an engineer is a really bad precedent. What is the goal GM is trying to achieve here.

      I hope that was a rhetorical question. It's obvious they are trying to create a scapegoat.

    57. Re:Hero ? by Vellmont · · Score: 1

      Wow. I don't want you to design anything where my life could be in danger or be in charge of any project. We're accepting the scenario of the OP (The change wouldn't have happened unless the part number was kept the same), and you're telling me that given the decision to save lives, or follow policy, you'll choose policy. Life is rarely so simple, but you've already accepted this conclusion and have not only chosen to go with corporate police, but are DEFENDING this position in public.

      While I understand human nature and accept that most people will follow policy and simply put the blame on someone else (This is well researched and called diffusion of responsibility) I'm saddened by the fact that you're advocating this position, and that it was modded up so highly.

      --
      AccountKiller
    58. Re:Hero ? by pupsocket · · Score: 1

      This is how a Mighty Corporate Person jettisons a cell that morphs into a person who morphs into a scapegoat. Shielding shareholders from personal liabilty is not enough. The Mighty Corporate Person needs to be shielded from disrepute. After all, a Mighty Corporate Person is not a grain of human feedstock.

    59. Re:Hero ? by lsatenstein · · Score: 1

      Changing part without changing part number is something which the engineer shouldn't have done. Sure, management wouldn't let him make the change and that is bad. However, by making a change without following the basic accepted procedures meant that sleuth work needed to be done to even identify that a change had been made. The engineer clearly did something wrong. That in no way reduces the responsibility of management for their decisions and the consequences of those decisions.

      That said, naming names of an engineer is a really bad precedent. What is the goal GM is trying to achieve here. Do they want people to go break the guy's windows? Burn down his house? Call him in the middle of the night or deliver pizza? Apart from potentially removing the guy's livelihood for the remainder of his life because no-one wants to hire 'that guy' ever again, and a lot of abuse being targeted his way, what will this achieve?

      If he did something criminal, then he should be charged. If he did something extremely incompetent then maybe membership of the engineering body should be revoked, but it isn't the place of GM to throw their engineers to the wolves.

      OK, so the part number was not changed. But the date of the change is known, and cars manufactured one week after that date or with the arrival of the first batch of new parts is known. It is therefore not the total of all the cars manufactured. And yes, some replacement parts sales will also have to be checked.
      I suppose that they can test if it is the new or old switch, just by testing manually. If the switch turns off with trivial pressure, its the old part.

      If the engineer did the change when the company refused to do it, bless the man for saving lives.

      --
      Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
    60. Re:Hero ? by pupsocket · · Score: 1

      Maybe he did the change without a revision number because management made him.

      Or maybe someone utilized the Magical Managerial Prestidigitation Kit to flatter, confuse, incentivise, cajole, and inspire the engineer to do what the whole team wanted.

    61. Re:Hero ? by theshowmecanuck · · Score: 1, Interesting

      If you are a professional engineer you sign that you agree to a code of ethics. That includes putting your name on your work and being responsible for it. If you don't like it, don't go into the profession. If you do something wrong like obfuscate the trail of a life threatening defect, you own it. Also, fact the engineers didn't go public with the defect should also be owned by them and they should lose their professional accreditation and face jail time due to their not honouring their code of ethics in outing dangerous conditions. If this were done more often, engineers would do what they're supposed to. A few people in Ontario several years ago were killed in a mall collapse when an engineer didn't do what he was supposed to. He is facing jail time and loss of accreditation.

      --
      -- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
    62. Re:Hero ? by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      If you can't feed your children otherwise, you can't say no.

      No we're not talking unskilled workers here. An engineer even in the middle of the GFC could have easily stood up and left their employer and found work in short notice.

      If you fail economically, our society tells you that you are a failure. Ethics don't pay the bills.

      Maybe this guy is just feeding himself, I don't know. But society punishes the kind of ethics you're talking about. We clearly don't actually hold that value.

      No people don't hold that value in general. That's what sets most professions apart from engineering. In many countries around the world a professional engineer needs to be registered with the government and can't sign away any responsibilities to anyone other than another professional engineer. The responsibility of the profession is that you act ethically at all times. If you can't do that, and you worry about feeding your children (oh the poor think of the children comment, do you work for Fox News by chance?) then you should change profession to something less demanding on your weak mind.

      Also there are ways of saying no to management without your poor children going foodless.

    63. Re:Hero ? by Mr.CRC · · Score: 1

      Then you can get busted for making an illegal recording on top of getting convicted of the original charge, because the evidence will never see the light of day.

    64. Re:Hero ? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      If you can't do that, and you worry about feeding your children (oh the poor think of the children comment, do you work for Fox News by chance?)

      No, I work for you're an asshole. Because people trying to feed their families is what goes on in the real world.

      then you should change profession to something less demanding on your weak mind.

      Weak minds are the ones that cannot grasp that real people deal with real hardships.

      Also there are ways of saying no to management without your poor children going foodless.

      Oh yeah? In this economy, when there's three unemployed for every job opening? You have no fucking idea what's going on in the real world.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    65. Re:Hero ? by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Except there's no involuntary unemployed engineers. Why not open the career section of the paper and just see how in demand mechanical and electrical engineers are. In the height of the GFC they were in demand, and now they are still in demand. Stop comparing this situation to some unskilled labourer you're not helping your arguement.

      You're making excuses for someone who acted against the ethics of the profession. Just remember that next time your children go to the doctor and don't get the right treatment because of budget cuts and management. (See what I did there? Think of the children!) Oh what? The oaths can apply to one profession but not the other? Please.

    66. Re:Hero ? by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      He's not an engineer, he's a Program Manager.

      The accusation is not fixed: they say he *might* have tried to re-engineer the switch without changing the part number. I want explanation of this. Maybe he suggested new design for part #11775 and someone said "it's released, we need a new part number" "oh right". Maybe he's a fucking project manager and didn't, at the time, understand that new designs to replace existing parts get new part numbers--I know that my steering column's ignition switch is part #XXX, and if it changes ... it never occurred to me that the part number may change; I thought that minor revisions were the same part number (this seems to be standard practice--look at part number WRT54G v1 v1.1 v2 v4 v7).

    67. Re:Hero ? by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Engineer's ethical responsibility is to not release a part he knows is faulty.

      How a non-faulty part gets released isn't the engineer's responsibility. It's not part of their ethical behavior. All an engineer is supposed to do is look at a rocket ship, decide that it can't launch if the primary fuel tank seals are below 42F, and complain loudly that you absolutely cannot clear the customer to launch "because of triple-backup systems" below 42F because it will not "probably be okay". They don't have to care that these new seals have the same part number as the old seals.

    68. Re:Hero ? by CMYKjunkie · · Score: 1

      The names of everyone involved are going to come out anyways....I'm *guessing* GM's goal is to scapegoat a few responsible parties as early as possible, so that when the management failures are unmasked, there won't be as much heat and vitriol.

      **bump** **bump***

      The sound the bus makes running over the engineers thrown under.

    69. Re:Hero ? by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      You would do wise to remember your history.

      In that case a group of engineers recommended no launch. Their management backed them. NASA strongarmed the resulting discussion. The engineers made it known to both Thiokol and their customer / end user NASA that they oppose the launch. There's not a heck of a lot more they could do other than run into mission control guns a blazing to stop the launch.

      From what I can gather in this case the engineers appeared to engage in a cover-up, quite the opposite from vocally speaking up as in the Challenger case.

      If you think change management isn't a fundamental responsibility that needs to be upheld then that's a scary connotation. Yes in this case the part got fixed. No it wasn't sufficient on their behalf, it wasn't in-line with what anyone would consider typical engineering practice (where's the mountain of documentation detailing the change?), and it wasn't sufficient resulting in people getting hurt.

    70. Re:Hero ? by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Yes, that's what happened with the Columbia.

      The Challenger had initial opposition from Thinkol management, but that later turned to support for launch. Engineers continued to protest, and Thinkol's management pushed them back into a corner and told NASA they could continue. Essentially, the narrative here is, "Well, our engineers told us this is a problem... oh, you don't think so? Well then sure we can launch! Hey you guys in the back! Shut up!"

      If Thinkol's engineers got a new O-ring that could handle those launch temperatures out, as long as it made it to the rocket pad, it wouldn't matter how they decided to label it. If they got them to launch later in the day when it was warm, it also wouldn't matter. The engineers have no ethical interest in red tape; all they care about--all they need to care about--is putting good, solid work in place. Change management procedures are put in place and enforced by project managers--one of them was named--but they also come down from the project management office, which may speculate that replacement parts bear the same part number.

    71. Re:Hero ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "We tried to do the right thing and management thwarted us at every turn". Done in one, the CEO just perjured herself before congress, and the class action liability suits put GM (back) into bankruptcy (where they belong). .

      I think you must have missed the part where New GM was given immunity from liability for legal claims predating its bankruptcy. You know, stuff that Old GM (GM before 2009) did like build hundreds of thousands of cars with faulty ignition switches and kill a few people as a consequence. Not the New GM's problem, that was the Old GM. The 'New' GM is in no way legally liable.

  2. More Impressed by sycodon · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'll be more impressed when they suspend/fire the managers/executives that did not pass along the information or made the decision it would cost less to pay off victims than fix it.

    --
    When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    1. Re:More Impressed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I don't know the details on this specific case, but when my father worked at GM back in the jurassic period, management(middle and upper) was always involved and virtually always the cause of shit like this. The engineer was then a potential fall guy if it ever hit the fan, while nothing happened to the boss.

    2. Re:More Impressed by SuricouRaven · · Score: 2

      "Credit travels upwards, blame travels downwards. That's just the way it works." - The Pointy-Haired Boss.

  3. Did they name the director? by EmagGeek · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Did they name the director that ordered the two engineers to cover up the change? There's no way the engineers decided to do that on their own volition.

    1. Re:Did they name the director? by Sarten-X · · Score: 1

      You don't believe in the existence of bad or sloppy engineers?

      --
      You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
    2. Re:Did they name the director? by SeaFox · · Score: 3, Insightful

      He doesn't believe in rank and file employees having power to enact this level of change at their workplace.

  4. Comparison to code bugs a bit flawed by zooblethorpe · · Score: 4, Informative

    The fine article submission asks:

    Is it a good thing that people who engineer for a living can now get their names on national news for parts designed 10 years ago? The next time your mail goes down, should we know the name of the guy whose code flaw may have caused that?

    One key difference here is that the engineer(s) responsible for redesigning the switch and not changing the part number were not just implementing an everyday change that happened to be buggy. By not changing the part number, their actions are more akin to trying to fix a known bug that has exposed the company to huge potential liabilities, and then hacking the version control system to make it look like the bug was never there, in full intentional pursuit of obfuscation and ass-covering.

    Cheers,

    --
    "What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
    "A four-foot prune."
    1. Re:Comparison to code bugs a bit flawed by thegarbz · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And following on that I fully expect software engineers to be held to account in a similar way. If the Heartbleed bug was silently fixed and then historical logs messed with to make it look like it never existed in the first place then the person responsible should have their name in lights.

      Professional Engineers have an obligation to act ethically, not an obligation to be right all the time. Software engineers and other professionals in the IT industry should be held to the same account.

    2. Re:Comparison to code bugs a bit flawed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You're a one trick pony. All you seem to be able to say is "obligation to act ethically" yet you certainly have no idea what you're talking about. I'm an engineer. I don't remember taking any pledges, signing any contracts, or swearing an oath of ethicality. Furthermore, my job requires me to design, test, and maintain instruments of war. AKA, I kill people for a living (indirectly). How am I supposed to be ethical about that hmmmmmmm?

    3. Re:Comparison to code bugs a bit flawed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't sell things that will kill the operator without telling the operators that it might kill them as well.

    4. Re:Comparison to code bugs a bit flawed by inasity_rules · · Score: 1

      "Ethically" isn't always clear cut. Perhaps let's use "Professionally". If you act professionally, you won't let known issues endanger the lives of the operators or general public, even if it means losing your job.

      --
      I have determined that my sig is indeterminate.
    5. Re:Comparison to code bugs a bit flawed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      There's not enough information made public to know what happened, so all this speculation is just that. For example, McCaskill accused Ray DeGiorgio of lying to Congress about whether he remembered signing a change order. The problem is, according to autonews.com, the document she had was a 'validation' certificate he signed indicating a part met spec, not a change order. Did the engineers named actually make the change? Or was it someone at the supplier (Delphi)? Did the specs change, or only the design of the part? If the specs didn't change, then what DeGiorgio signed might not have indicated anything about the part changing.

    6. Re:Comparison to code bugs a bit flawed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One key difference here is that the engineer(s) responsible for redesigning the switch and not changing the part number were not just implementing an everyday change that happened to be buggy. By not changing the part number, their actions are more akin to trying to fix a known bug that has exposed the company to huge potential liabilities.

      Where is the right place to adjust incentives on engineers to make this less likely in the future, the media and the engineers' lifelong reputation? Or the private internal politics of GM?

      If you pick the first one, engineers need to get credit for all the secret projects they work on by publishing papers about them, and papers need to be sufficiently detailed to reproduce work and out liars, like in academia. Engineers need to get blamed when recalls happen, even if they follow all the procedures. Engineers' names need to be attached to the finished product along with what they worked on so consumers can track disreputable ones throughout their career. Engineers will probably need malpractice insurance and spend more than half their brain covering their ass from hypothetical future legal drama, like doctors. Only in this world does the engineer actually have some personal-blame-worthy motivation to hide the defect by monkeying with part numbers.

      If you pick the second one, the pressure on the engineer to cover GM's ass can only come from GM, so this outing makes no sense. It's GM that needs to clean up its internal act by removing incentives for engineers to act illegally. Therefore, it seems to me this is probably a cynical PR move made by a sociopathic MBA, calculating that Americans can be distracted from good judgement by their insatiable need to hate and punish others. I predict it'll work fantastically.

    7. Re:Comparison to code bugs a bit flawed by sploxx · · Score: 1

      Professional Engineers have an obligation to act ethically, not an obligation to be right all the time.

      Not saying you are wrong, but 'acting ethically' can be complicated: If you engineer WMDs or similar, is it ethical to adhere to the design and workflow guidelines of the change control system?

      I understand that in almost all cases, it makes a lot of sense to work according to the rules. And if the rules came into place from ethical considerations, it is ethical to follow the rules. But that's not necessarily true in all cases.

    8. Re:Comparison to code bugs a bit flawed by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      So am I. I'm a chartered engineer and registered with the government in my country as all engineers are required to be. That charter requires amongst other things to act ethically in the profession at all times and that is actually something that I signed.

      See that's how "professional" jobs work in countries which treat them as a profession. Not just engineers either, medical professionals in this country typically display signed copies of the hippocratic oath on their wall too. That's the difference between building something, and working as a professional, and I'm quite sad for you.

      As for killing people? I worked in defence briefly. My job was actually protecting people by building instruments of war. You're not ethically bound to ensure your device can't ever harm, just that it doesn't harm the user when used as intended. If you actually killed one of the people using your device as intended then you should be in jail.

    9. Re:Comparison to code bugs a bit flawed by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Sorry you're scaring me now. Are you saying there's a scenario where you would make a change to a WMD without a form of change control?

      I'm sure I missread what you were intending to write but if not, please tell me which country you are so I can stay the heck away.

    10. Re:Comparison to code bugs a bit flawed by sploxx · · Score: 1

      No, I think you misread me. What I am saying is: Lets say you are an engineer in Iran and you work on WMDs and know they are going to be used. Working on them wouldn't be ethical.

      I think what I am trying to say is the old 'I have just been following orders' thing. And in a way, because of 'ethical' implications, I believe 'working in and with the system' -and maybe even things such as change control- might have parallels to that idea of 'just following orders'.

      As others said, the best thing the engineer could have done (if I understand everything right), is to go public and say: We have this flaw, we need to fix it!

      I think the next best thing actually is to not follow change control guidelines - in that way 'orders' - and fix the problem, even though management says that he should bury the data that says that the switch is faulty, and hide from management that you fixed it. Of course, 'next best' could and probably should already be considered as some sort of 'bad'.

      I might misunderstand the whole situation though and it what sense the engineers did/didn't make the situation worse.

    11. Re:Comparison to code bugs a bit flawed by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      I don't think so. Ethical does not mean "thou shall not kill". Am I working on a device intended on killing others, or am I working on a device intended on saving our own?

      I think the word ethical here is a bit of a catch. Ethical doesn't necessarily mean a religious following of one's beliefs, but rather the code of ethics I signed are based around the tenants of demonstrating integrity, practising competently, exercising leadership, and promoting sustainability. Part of exercising leadership is that you can not sign your rights away to non engineers. Where I live this is actually covered under law. I as a registered engineer can't have a manager sign away liability for something I know is not safe, I can only sign that away to another engineer, and only to another engineer who is competent in understanding what is being signed (practising competently).

      I know not every country holds the engineering profession to this high standard but the way I see it, even if in this case the engineers in question fixed the problem, they helped sweep it under the rug for management and I have no problem with them being grilled in a public forum for it.

  5. I used to work at GM. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Specifically, OnStar.

    I can remember one of the development groups there "discovering" Agile, and immediately trying to patent the crap out of every process they could. Specifically, they were patenting how they made "new" processes to make Agile work with their awful SDP-21 development process (waterfall)..... by putting multiple sprints inside of the waterfall.

    The place was soul sucking, conformity was desperately sought in all people, and management was desperate to throw underlings under the bus in order to save their own $160,000/year jobs (the talent for which they never really possessed).

    You know... sort of like what is happening to these two engineers.

    1. Re:I used to work at GM. by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Yeah, car design is where you implement waterfall. Agile? In long-term engineering? Hah. No. The risk of change as you make incremental delivery is extremely low; agile just adds overhead.

  6. backwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why is it whenever people die, get disenfranchised, etc due to willful actions by individuals, that must never be known, but when an engineer makes an honest mistake in openssl, or does a mediocre job on part at GM, it's pitchforks and torches? What about the coverup? The bad cost analysis? The management decisions? Those are far more to blame than the engineer who didn't follow industry standard practice (and probably was ordered to do so)...

  7. Why not? by hawguy · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The next time your mail goes down, should we know the name of the guy whose code flaw may have caused that?"

    Why not let software engineers take responsibility for their work just like "real" engineers do when they sign off on a project?

    The developer responsible for the Heartbleed bug that put the privacy of millions of users at risk stood up and took responsibility for his mistake.

    If you know that the world is going to hear about it if you screw up, then maybe you'll take a little more time to vet your work before you sign off on it.

    1. Re:Why not? by Jaime2 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That's why software developers shouldn't insist on using the title Engineer. This kind of accountability is expected of an engineer, it's not an anomaly. When programming matures to the point where bugs are rare, then we will deserve the title.

      I write software for a living and I'm well aware that if we were to compare computer science to medical science, the current era is roughly equivalent to the blood letting and leeches era. I can't wait for our penicillin to come around.

    2. Re:Why not? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, sure I'll take responsibility, if you pay me triple, and if there are criminal repercussions for any attempt to coerce a developer into 'signing off' on something.

    3. Re:Why not? by thegarbz · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The world doesn't need to hear about screw-ups, it does however need to hear about cover-ups.

    4. Re:Why not? by TubeSteak · · Score: 1

      I think the traditional /. response involves something along the lines of:
      "But what if you're a doctor in a movie theater and someone dies because you didn't get an e-mail in the seconds after it was sent?"

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    5. Re:Why not? by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 2

      It is good to take responsibility if you screw up, and I would like to see more real engineering rigour in software development. However that doesn't mean the guy making the mistake should be the scapegoat. The best of us can make mistakes, but the fact that these mistakes make it into the final product is not only our failing, but a failing of the procedures in place as well. If your process cannot cope with a single human being making a mistake, then it's the team, manager and company failing, not just the solitary engineer. Software engineering processes suck pretty bad in that regard, but "real" engineering practices have their failings too. Thinking of the famous "woodpecker" comparison between architects and software engineers, I'll say the world is damn lucky that real-world construction is way more forgiving when it comes to small errors translating to big issues, even if it's failure modes are a usually a lot mor noisy, dangerous, and costly.

      --
      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
    6. Re:Why not? by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 1

      Not this "software engineers aren't real engineers" crap again. Those real engineers make plenty of mistakes too,sometimes costly ones, sometimes even deadly. And they too hide behind the "shit happens" excuse from time to time, after signing off on a disaster. I recognize that software engineering is not nearly as mature as other fields of endeavor, but you're doing the profession of software design a disservice comparing it to bloodletting and leeches.

      --
      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
    7. Re:Why not? by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      That's why software developers shouldn't insist on using the title Engineer. This kind of accountability is expected of an engineer, it's not an anomaly. When programming matures to the point where bugs are rare, then we will deserve the title.

      When that day comes, the programmer won't be called an engineer: he'll be called a mathematician.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    8. Re:Why not? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      To be a Software Engineer do you need to maintain membership in a professional organization and maintain any form of acredditation? No? Then you aren't an Engineer. It isn't a semantic question; The requirement that an "Engineer", generally referring to a "Professional Engineer" be accredited means that if they fail to act with due diligence they can lose that accreditation and be forced to find a job doing something else. In most places "Software Engineers" meet no accreditation requirements, have no requirement to belong to any society which regulates ethics, experience or training.

      I've worked with real engineers, ethics was more important than their education.

    9. Re:Why not? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I write software for a living and I'm well aware that if we were to compare computer science to medical science, the current era is roughly equivalent to the blood letting and leeches era. I can't wait for our penicillin to come around.

      You're wrong. Computer science is not programming. As the name indicates, it's a science. In fact, it's a formal science, and you can't apply leeches in a formal science without proving they actually work.
      And if you think ignoring the scientific method is a thing of the past in the medical field take a look at this. That it ignores basic math isn't the problem. The problem is it's at 210 citations now, some of which seem to be important considering the number of citations they have.

      The reason software sucks is very few companies want to pay for good software. Everyone wants it cheap, fast, with all possible features and done by the end of the month. Then it blows up on their face and they act surprised, yet ready to do it all again because software that works is expensive.

    10. Re:Why not? by russotto · · Score: 1

      That's why software developers shouldn't insist on using the title Engineer. This kind of accountability is expected of an engineer, it's not an anomaly.

      Engineers just build siege engines, they're not responsible if the siege fails.

    11. Re:Why not? by jdschulteis · · Score: 1

      In most places "Software Engineers" meet no accreditation requirements, have no requirement to belong to any society which regulates ethics, experience or training.

      I've worked with real engineers, ethics was more important than their education.

      There is no requirement to belong, but at least there is a society that promulgates ethics.

    12. Re:Why not? by AaronW · · Score: 1

      I agree with this if going by the people I've been interviewing. I usually give a basic C programming problem, nothing particularly hard that any college grad should have no problem doing. A majority of the people I interview fail it and very few get it completely right. We've had a lot of people who throw around buzzwords but won't go into detail (big red flag), or they have a lot of short stints at a lot of companies (another red flag). I swear that some of these people have someone else do the phone screen for them.

      I've had people come in only to admit that they don't know C, and this is for a position working on stuff like bootloaders and the Linux kernel and other embedded stuff. Also, seeing certain large companies listed in their resume is another red flag. While working at a networking company none of the people I interviewed from a large networking company could describe what happens when one machine pings another machine through a router using Ethernet.

      We're still looking for people since right now I'm totally overloaded with work.

      Knowing programming is like knowing the alphabet. It doesn't mean you know how to put it all together and write a good book.

      --
      This post is encrypted twice with ROT-13. Documenting or attempting to crack this encryption is illegal.
    13. Re:Why not? by inasity_rules · · Score: 2

      I do exactly the same thing, but I use problems from Project Euler. I think I may be a bit evil, but really, if you claim to know a language and can't at least brute force a numerical problem...

      Weirdly though we just took on two paid interns to develop some internal tools under supervision. One failed my sadistic little test, and the other passed it. Turns out the one who failed writes better code and grasps the problems better. Anecdotal, but surprising. Disclosure: I am definitely not a software engineer.

      --
      I have determined that my sig is indeterminate.
    14. Re:Why not? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not this "software engineers aren't real engineers" crap again. Those real engineers make plenty of mistakes too,sometimes costly ones, sometimes even deadly. And they too hide behind the "shit happens" excuse from time to time, after signing off on a disaster. I recognize that software engineering is not nearly as mature as other fields of endeavor, but you're doing the profession of software design a disservice comparing it to bloodletting and leeches.

      Everybody makes mistakes. The entire beginning of the steam engine was surrounded by disasters where boilers exploded. The space program was the same and the private space program now involves sending up plenty of things which fail.

      And that's where things start to be different. Heartbleed was an open source project done as an experiment by a student (whether he knew that or not). The guy who signed off on it, although suspicious, was a single volunteer working on his own accord. The companies which put OpenSSL into products, especially the ones who distributed them without full source, are the ones who should have been employing engineers to verify the quality of the code. Tell me the names of the people in Microsoft who accepted the code which allowed the recent JPG exploit and show me where I can see the investigation into why they did that and then I will start to accept your arguments.

      In the steam machine industry they got a small number of boiler designs which were known to be safe and banned anything else without extensive testing. Nobody has started to destroy the industrial controllers which were exploited by stuxnet.

      There might be a small number of "software engineers" doing real engineering, however most of them are just not and they don't take any responsibility for that or even publish clear information about what went wrong with their designs. "software engineers aren't real engineers" otherwise half of them would be in jail right now.

    15. Re:Why not? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I write software for a living and I'm well aware that if we were to compare computer science to medical science, the current era is roughly equivalent to the blood letting and leeches era. I can't wait for our penicillin to come around.

      Sooo.. I assume you write in .NET then?

    16. Re:Why not? by eulernet · · Score: 1

      Let's suppose that you have an interview for on a software project where human lives are at stake.
      You learn that if you make a mistake, your name will be published everywhere, and your career will be ruined.
      Will you take this job ?

      If you take the job:
      1) do you believe that you'll accept a normal pay to work on this job ? Do you believe the company will give you a high salary ?
      2) do you believe that you'll be able to deliver easily, especially if you have troubles with your emotions ?
      3) do you realize that a lethal bug can take months to be found ? Do you believe that you'll put enough unit tests in your code ? Do you think that you'll write a lot of code ?

      This problem has been solved by surgeons
      1) they have a big salary
      2) they know that they can fail and kill a human, so they are peer-reviewed and never operate people they are emotionally attached with.
      3) when they fail, they have an instant feedback, so they can improve their process immediately

      Finally, they make you sign a lot of papers, just in case there might be a failure.
      And any operation becomes extremely expensive !

    17. Re:Why not? by Kjella · · Score: 1

      Well, first of all since OpenSSL is an open source project, I doubt staying anonymous was an option as you can go back and check git logs and mailing lists.

      Dr. Seggelmann said the error he introduced was "quite trivial", but acknowledged that its impact was "severe". (,..) After he submitted the code, a reviewer "apparently also didn't notice the missing validation," Dr. Seggelmann said

      So the takeaway here is that OpenSSL has a review process that lets "quite trivial" bugs in the input validation of a high security product through, that's comforting

      Seggelmann said it might be "tempting" to assume the bug was inserted deliberately by a spy agency or hacker. "But in this case, it was a simple programming error in a new feature, which unfortunately occurred in a security relevant area," he said, according to the newspaper report. "It was not intended at all, especially since I have previously fixed OpenSSL bugs myself and was trying to contribute to the project."

      If you were a spy agency trying to get a vulnerability into OpenSSL, do you think it'd be on the first patch? Fix some insignificant bugs, get trusted, introduce seemingly innocent but deeply flawed code and trust that it gets rubber stamped through. He the first of three authors on the Heartbeat extension which for some reason includes an arbitrary size, arbitrary content data block where a simple PING/PONG would confirm the connection is still alive. I'm not saying he is a plant, but I am saying that everything he says is exactly the same as a plant would say to excuse his backdoor as a honest mistake. I mean, could you do it any better if you tried? Create a side channel by passing large chunks of data back and forth between the client and server, then create a flaw to pass the state buffer instead. It smells to high heaven.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    18. Re:Why not? by x0ra · · Score: 2

      Following French law, I am a fully qualified certified engineer. Membership in a professional organization is just a north american concept closer to mafia and group self-interest preservation than engineering.

    19. Re:Why not? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      AC because mod. In the aerospace industry we have qualifed engineers writing software for aircraft system controls. The process is heavily regulated, with many formal reviews from requirements to final code, not to mention automated and manual testing of all code and mandatory removal of dead code. 'Bugs' as such (i.e. coding errors) are as far as humanly possible eradicated, system bugs are more often the result of innaccurate requirements capture (i.e. we coded the wrong solution, rather than coded the right solution wrongly)

      Needless to say, this code is expensive to produce and is often the reason a product is delayed even though the hardware is sitting, fully qualified, on the shelf.

    20. Re:Why not? by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

      Following French law, I am a fully qualified certified engineer. Membership in a professional organization is just a north american concept closer to mafia and group self-interest preservation than engineering.

      There is a little more to it than that if you want to be able to put P.E. after your name. To become a Professional Engineer (P.E.) you need to get a degree from an accredited university, pass an exam to become an Engineer in Training, have four years of experience under a P.E., and then pass a another exam. You can join a professional organization, in most cases, merely by paying dues. However, you do not need to be a P.E. to call yourself an engineer, unless you are performing certain types of engineering work; and many degreed engineers never get a P.E. because they do not need it in their careers.

      Engineer has become somewhat of a generic term that can be used in many ways and doesn't represent any assurance of any sort of education level or certification. To your original point, the engineering profession missed the chance to establish a protective and benevolent licensure organization like doctors and lawyers to help them maintain higher salaries and limit competition. Had the done so you'd probably see a lot less offshoring and H1B visa work because they would not meet licensure requirements and the cost for doing so would make the jobs unattractive. Look at Doctors. To get a US license they need to pass an exam, complete a residency, assuming they can get a match, and meet other requirements no matter how long, or well, they have practiced medicine. The result is very few foreign trained doctors actually are able to ultimately practice in the US.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    21. Re:Why not? by RobertLTux · · Score: 1

      well lets see

      Your Dean of Medicine should know better than to let you be out of contact like that
      You should know how to train your minions on how to keep the patient alive long enough to allow for a delay
      You also should really cut down to less than a bottle of Vicodin a day.

      besides you already have an easier way of getting in contact (your PHONE/PAGER)

      --
      Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
    22. Re:Why not? by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Programming has matured to the point where severe bugs are rare. It's called Python 3000.

  8. MK Observer by ttucker · · Score: 2

    What a bullshit news story, it is written is broken and bastardized English. Lets discuss a reputable story instead.

    1. Re:MK Observer by ttucker · · Score: 1

      The broken switches can move out of the “run” situation suddenly, executing the motor and closing off force to airbags.

      What is this even supposed to mean?!? The "run" situation?

    2. Re:MK Observer by Qzukk · · Score: 1

      It reads like it was spewed out by a markov chain generator trained on a tiny subset of language to make sure that its rambling stays on topic, but still makes no guarantees that it comes out in English.

      Maybe that's what the MK means? I had a look at the other stories on the site:

      The issue is these venues value their transactions off of the distributed costs on the exchanges – in addition, if those costs need uprightness, then “darkpool” evaluating will itself be twisted.

      -- http://www.mkobserver.com/high...

      Whatsoever it is, the tinkle about the blip demonstrates that individuals are looking at the rover photographs nearly. An imaging master at NASA’s laboratory imparts his hypothesis: An “cosmic beam hit” influenced Curiosity.

      -- http://www.mkobserver.com/nasa...

      Some of the less gibberish articles have writing/editing citations at the bottom, maybe they are generated by a computer then cleaned up afterwards? Others are quite clearly press releases.

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    3. Re:MK Observer by ttucker · · Score: 1

      The stories are almost like markov chain nonsense that is inspired by real news articles. Maybe nonsense article remixing is some kind of new SEO/ad revenue trick.

    4. Re:MK Observer by Arker · · Score: 1

      "What is this even supposed to mean?!? The "run" situation?"

      He's trying to write 'the run position.'

      --
      =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
      Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
    5. Re:MK Observer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wish you'd use a standardized font.

    6. Re:MK Observer by ttucker · · Score: 1

      It is not that one sentence so much, as the entire article groping for words that are... almost correct. There is something very peculiar about the entire news site, and their credibility is rather suspect.

    7. Re:MK Observer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I expect this is a robo-plagiarism site. The "author" pastes in an article from a reputable source, and a simple FUUUUUnglish algorithm rearranges it into structurally identical, but lexically different text.

      How does this get linked on a story? Well, it's probably cartechboy trying for affiliate money, coupled with /. editors not actually giving a frack about quality coverage. This is my first visit to /. in a few years, and clearly nothing has changed.

  9. Next time your (g)mail goes down... by thatkid_2002 · · Score: 0

    ...blame yourself for using a service which relies on magic and good will to scale further than is sensible.

  10. The 'New' GM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Meanwhile email evidence emerged that Mary Barra knew about the issues as far back as 2011. Which would mean she lied to Congress in testimony.

    2 engineers are let go, while the people who lie under oath still walk free.

    My parents met working at GM - and later in life got totally screwed as their pension went bankrupt with the Old GM... while 'New' GM escapes liability for issues they knew about and covered up. I will never buy a GM car in my life.

    CAPTCHA: Equality.

  11. Professionals by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Professional Engineers get big bucks and are held to professional standards. They either belong to associations that provide insurance or their employer gets insurance for them or they get it themselves. If they screw up, they get called out by the professional associations that they belong to. Sometimes there are legal ramifications for screwing up but always they are responsible for what they do - they are professionals.

  12. changing part without changing number is common by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    I'm not saying that it's good, and this case is an example of exactly why it can be a bad idea to do this, but changing part numbers has a lot of overhead (inventory management of multiple part numbers, all the manuals that now refer to the wrong number, etc)

    If it's expected that the new part is significantly different than the old one, then it's worth all the pain, but if it's not expected to be significantly different (just cheaper to build, or more reliable when nobody expects series reliability problems with the old one, etc) its not completely insane to just change the design and keep the same part number.

    If you want to be really paranoid, you track each batch of parts produced as a separate item, because minor things like the temprature that day could theoretically affect something. In medical and aerospace industries, this sort of tracking is done (which is one of the reasons why 'simple' things are so expensive in those industries)

    but in the automotive industry that level of tracking is just not done, and it's very common for parts to be substatuted with no notice.

    In the computer industry, it's unfortuantly common for some manufacturers to make what many people consider major changes (like changing chipsets) without changing the part number.

    David Lang

    1. Re:changing part without changing number is common by Darinbob · · Score: 0

      Computer industry does this in some cases with the idea that all customers are basic home consumers, or a very common assumption from many manufacturers that everyone everywhere runs Windows with no exceptions and that it all works as long as you use the enclosed drivers. I've seen a lot of USB devices that don't even bother changing the serial numbers (the great thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose to ignore).

    2. Re:changing part without changing number is common by confused+one · · Score: 5, Informative

      Since I work for an automotive OEM.... When this is done, there is an Engineering Change Order documenting the change and why it was implemented. We don't change anything without first getting the approval of the customer; and, invariably they will want all the relevant DV and PV testing redone. Huge effort and pain. All of this is well documented and nothing ships until we have final approval from the customer.

      The part number may not change; but, the part revision level will. PN 123456 RevA will become PN 123456 RevB. We treat it as the "same" part number but will only ship the latest revision once we have customer approval. As for tracking, I don't know how our customers tracks the change internally; but, I can tell you which batch, serial number, and date code the new revision started shipping.

    3. Re:changing part without changing number is common by erikkemperman · · Score: 1

      I'd say that a part that doesn't lead to lethal accidents, as opposed to a part that sometimes does, constitutes a "significant change", no matter if the difference small. In this case, it actually seems to have been a fairly large change. They should have not only changed the number of the part, but made sure that cars in the wild with the old one got word, and probably should have been recalled immediately.

      This is also why the question asked in TFS is the wrong one:

      The next time your mail goes down, should we know the name of the guy whose code flaw may have caused that?"

      To be comparable with the case at hand, it should've read something like "the next time you receive a swath of similar bug reports of crashing systems and don't put out a timely fix, or even just an advisory, while at the same time you know what the problem is and do have a fix which you apply to new installations... should we know the name ...?"
      Hell yes.

      --
      Gosh, thanks. That must be why the other ships call me Meatfucker -- GCU Grey Area (Eccentric)
    4. Re:changing part without changing number is common by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Computer industry does this.....

      And here we have the thing that differentiates "Software Engineers" from real engineers. With a small number of exceptions (some people who work in Automotive; the team that used to work in NASA.. some others; certainly not, it seems, most of the teams working for the military) we are a bunch of clowns compared to real engineers. A real engineer is a person who bulds a bridge. He does it slowly, carefully and with the full knowlege that if he gets it wrong he's going to prison. On the other hand, he also knows that if someone changes the specification of a part of his bridge without telling him, that person is the person going to prison.

    5. Re:changing part without changing number is common by pipingguy · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I've seen cock-ups like this happen before. Detailed fabrication drawings are auto-generated paper documents (paper, because each one must be signed and stamped by the stress engineer and signed by the checker and because paper is easier to handle by the fabrication shop and remains the copy of record). Sometimes, but rarely, a minor change is made in the 3D model and a new physical drawing is not printed and sent through the document process. In this case, the 3D model is correct but the detailed drawing is not. Or the reverse can happen; the detailed drawing is manually edited (say, under pressure to meet a deadline, with the intent to update the model as soon as the rush is over - then someone forgets) leaving the model incorrect.

    6. Re:changing part without changing number is common by khellendros1984 · · Score: 1

      The post you replied to was talking about hardware, not software.

      --
      It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
    7. Re:changing part without changing number is common by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The post I was replying to was talking about the "computer industry" and I understood it as a comment on the whole thing. Otherwise the comment would be irrelevant. There are people in cooking who accept a potato from the shop without checking the sourcing. That doesn't reflect on any way on what a food engineer in Unilever does and it doesn't reflect on the farmer who grew the food in any way. The person accepting the hardware for use in his system is a "software engineer" and if he felt responsible then he would make sure that the hardware was fully specified.

    8. Re:changing part without changing number is common by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The post I was replying to was talking about the "computer industry" and I understood it as a comment on the whole thing.

      You understood it wrong.

      Otherwise the comment would be irrelevant.

      What do you mean, *otherwise*?

      Go out and play, the grownups are talking.

    9. Re:changing part without changing number is common by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You're right that changing part numbers is a massive headache, which is why it is NOT uncommon for parts to be re-engineered but retain the same part number.

      I've seen a number of recall programs for Toyota vehicles where this has been the case. The "faulty" part installed at the factory and the new "replacement" part have the same part numbers.

    10. Re:changing part without changing number is common by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      The part number may not change; but, the part revision level will. PN 123456 RevA will become PN 123456 RevB.

      Most automakers' part numbers do change. But some very much do not, for example the FIPL (TPS equivalent) on the old Ford diesels changed color but didn't change part number, and the two colors have substantively different internals. And there's no revision number, either.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    11. Re:changing part without changing number is common by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      GM don't use revisions. Any change even coating or paint change means they have to assign a brand new part-number.

    12. Re:changing part without changing number is common by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Changing the design of a part without changing its part number is very common.

      The revision for the part changes instead of the part number (part 123456789 goes from rev.A to rev.B), which keeps all of the manuals and drawings of other parts intact. The exception is where a part is explicitly included in an assembly, and the part has changed sufficiently that the assembly drawing (including 3D model, if any) must be updated.

    13. Re:changing part without changing number is common by mixed_signal · · Score: 3, Informative

      The document linked in the article shows several revisions to the switch assembly without changing GM p/n (revs A, B, C1, C2, C3 and D).

    14. Re:changing part without changing number is common by mixed_signal · · Score: 1

      Link from autonews article here: http://docs.house.gov/meetings...

    15. Re:changing part without changing number is common by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Otherwise the comment would be irrelevant.

      What do you mean, *otherwise*?

      Random hobbyist computer parts are not relevant to serious engineering of safety critical systems like automobile ignition switches. The only situation where a computer part becomes relevant to this discussion is when it is built into a safety critical system including both software and hardware and with a "software engineer", in the end, responsible for ensuring the entire functionality of the system.

      I can either take the post as stupid on the face of it or I can try to extract the sense from it whilst ignoring most of the stupidity; for example.

      Go out and play, the grownups are talking.

      Yes, we are, but I doubt you would know the difference.

    16. Re:changing part without changing number is common by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not saying that it's good, and this case is an example of exactly why it can be a bad idea to do this, but changing part numbers has a lot of overhead (inventory management of multiple part numbers, all the manuals that now refer to the wrong number, etc)

      I don't work in automotive, but in aviation (there is a lot process overlap between the two industries) and changes are classified in to two categories 'Major' and 'Minor'. It is my understanding, maybe this internal or just a good design practice, that all 'Major' changes require a part number change, and cannot be done with a revision.

      A major change is any change that affects Form, Fit, or Function, and not meeting the functional requirement as defined by the contract/qualification/performance documents would be an impact to 'Function'.

      This was a 'major' defect and it should have been resolved with a new part number, but this was not done due to the associated cost impacts.

    17. Re:changing part without changing number is common by zeroduck · · Score: 1

      It's not always a pain. If the OEM has a good relationship with the supplier, the OEM will usually take the recommendation from the supplier's validation engineer on what testing needs to be redone--depending on the change, it can be a full DV/PV, a limited subset of testing, or no testing at all. What I've learned in the auto industry is the supplier needs to be upfront about any changes... otherwise they risk RAINING FIRE AND VENGEANCE FROM AN ANGRY GOD. With this ignition-switch issue, expect in the forecast black skies and fire.

    18. Re:changing part without changing number is common by khellendros1984 · · Score: 1

      The guy said "computer industry", but it was obvious that they were referring to undocumented changes in the hardware, and how that made trouble for people using OSes that couldn't use the manufacturer-provided drivers. It happens *all* the time in consumer-level hardware, especially when you're talking about a Chinese knock-off of something. Simple example: wifi adapters with multiple hardware revisions, all sold under the same product number.

      Now, if you want to talk about the hardware engineers themselves rather than their products, then yes, the engineer building the thing has to have a fully-specified part, the behavior of which matches the datasheet and doesn't change.

      You can't talk about those things interchangeably, like you were trying to. If someone's talking about a driver not working with a piece of hardware, first, they're talking about hardware. Second, they're talking about a consumer that an "invisible" hardware change impacted.

      --
      It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
  13. Not a flamebait summary by thegarbz · · Score: 2

    Is it a good thing that people who engineer for a living can now get their names on national news for parts designed 10 years ago? The next time your mail goes down, should we know the name of the guy whose code flaw may have caused that?

    Yes. Well nearly. That is a good thing. If these engineers were found to act unethically in this regard they should be punished. Where I live professional engineers are registered and the charter of professional engineers put a great deal of weight on the ethical practice of engineering. Should the same go for software? Absolutely. I have long held the belief that software can be life critical at times and software engineers should be held to the same professionalism as any other form of engineering.

    Now I said well nearly because these people didn't get their name in the news for mis-designing a part. They got their name in the news for trying to cover up the fact that they mis-designed a part and potentially put the public in danger in the process. I don't believe they acted alone since it would take more than 2 people to pull off something like this unless GM really has no oversight structure, but if a software engineer made a mistake that was discovered to potentially cause a fatality and then attempted to cover it up by messing with the system so it looks like the bug never existed then by all means they should definitely have their name up in lights.

    1. Re:Not a flamebait summary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      See there you go carrying on about that "ethical" bullshit again. That society you refer to is for Professional Engineers (PE), not professional engineers. What's the difference? A business may only have 1 PE but a hundred non-licensed engineers who are still the same kind of engineer the PE is, they just don't get to officially sign off on anything. Not that it matters though, there a few instances where a PE signature is required- mostly civil and architectural engineering. The team designing the ignition switch on a GM is most likely not full of PE's, but their lead/dpt head probably is (so why isn't HIS head rolling?). TFA didn't indicate at all if the 2 scapegoats are indeed Professional Engineers so please stop it with the herpy derpy ethical nonsense.

    2. Re:Not a flamebait summary by jdschulteis · · Score: 1

      I have long held the belief that software can be life critical at times and software engineers should be held to the same professionalism as any other form of engineering.

      It is a matter of fact, not belief, that software can be life critical. For the majority of software, though, cost and time-to-market considerations far outweigh coding to the highest professional standard. "Good enough" wins.

  14. general motors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    its about time GM did something! but alas, it is too late for some families. :(

  15. Low hanging fruit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is it really likely that two engineers are entirely at fault, or that they were following orders from upper management?

    The blame for tragedy always hits the most accessible people, and never those who introduced the corporate culture that enabled shoddy workmanship and bad engineering.

    I'm positive there are people above these engineers who are just as responsible but will never be held accountable.

    1. Re:Low hanging fruit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Is it really likely that two engineers are entirely at fault, or that they were following orders from upper management?

      The blame for tragedy always hits the most accessible people, and never those who introduced the corporate culture that enabled shoddy workmanship and bad engineering.

      I'm positive there are people above these engineers who are just as responsible but will never be held accountable.

      I really don't believe it's possible for 2 engineers to just "change a part" in the entire manufacturing chain of GM. It sounds ridiculous, imagine how many people would have to be involved to make a change like this happen.

  16. only if by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I get to know the name of the guy responsible when my e-mail is working properly. Already a thankless job filled with unfair blame, are we really going to escalate the war on science further?

  17. Professional responsibility by Sir_Sri · · Score: 4, Informative

    Engineers are professionally certified with professional responsibility, if they aren't doing their job it's criminal and names need to be named. Just as a physician working for a hospital is named for accusations of negligence.

    It's not obvious if that's relevant here, but if someone tried to pass themselves off as a professional engineer and aren't that's a problem, if someone who is a professional engineering violated the ethical principles that's a problem too.

    1. Re:Professional responsibility by martiniturbide · · Score: 1

      The engineers may have responsibility, but they are not the ones that made QA, build the cars and distribute them massively. I think it is bad to pin-point the engineers, blame them and destroy their careers this way.

      I hope that this does not create a precedent that if product is a success the company will win money and get all recognition, if the product fails or if it dangerous the blame is on the engineers and they have to be publicly shamed.

    2. Re:Professional responsibility by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't need to be a Professional Engineer to work as an engineer in the U.S. Some positions may require it, but most don't.

      One problem I've seen is, instead of having a few engineers working on a single problem, you have a single engineer working on multiple problems. A couple of heads looking at a single problem with different perspectives can pick up on a lot of things that may be missed by a single person. But this is the world we live in with massive job cutbacks in the (real) engineering work environment.

    3. Re:Professional responsibility by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm an engineer but I don't have a PE license so what kind of "professional responsibility" am I supposed to have? The answer is none.

    4. Re:Professional responsibility by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >professionally certified

      Yeah, 2 exams and 4 years experience and you're a certified Professional Engineer. Really; look it up. That's all it takes.

      So impressive.

    5. Re:Professional responsibility by slew · · Score: 1

      I'm an engineer but I don't have a PE license so what kind of "professional responsibility" am I supposed to have? The answer is none.

      In a few localities, it is actually illegal** to call yourself an engineer or offer engineering services if you don't actually have a PE license (akin to practicing medicine or law w/o a license even if you graduated from medical or law school).

      However, the odds are you probably don't live in one of the few remaining localities that have these restrictions on the use of "engineer" in a job title, but you should be aware that in most localities, simply by practicing engineering often puts you under the jurisdiction of the local board and local/state boards usually have some rules for people that are "exempt" from licensing, but able to practice the profession. Therefore, even if you are not required to be licensed, you might have some professional responsibilities, you may simply be ignorant of what they are (and ignorance of the law is generally not a valid excuse in a court of law).

      **About 20 years ago, I was working for a company that was bought by another company headquartered in another state where it was illegal to have the word "engineer" in a job title w/o that person being a licensed P.E. A year after the merger, the company was cited by the state board as employing non-engineers w/ engineering titles and as part of the penalty/settlement was forced to change the job titles of nearly everyone in my department (e.g, from applications engineer to technician level 3, or from engineering team manager to technical team manager). I remember one of the newly minted technician level 3s disagreed with this decision and stupidly quit in protest.

      About a year later, the state changed the rules slightly where we were allowed to be called application engineers again (because apparently a large electronics industry employer based in the state convinced the state board it was generally known that mere applications-engineers weren't allowed to sign-off on actual designs). Of course, for a job title that was say a lead engineer, or principal engineer or a partner engineer, I think many of those still require being P.E. Licensed.

    6. Re:Professional responsibility by munch117 · · Score: 1

      And yet, somehow, electrical engineers are always seat-of-the-pants cowboy coders. At least the ones I know, I work with a few of them. They might be more disciplined with their core skill, developing hardware, but I've heard "let's add a pull-up resistor and see what happens" one too many times to really believe that. I don't have a problem with that, they get the work done. I just can't take seriously this notion some people have, that software engineers are sloppy amateurs and real engineers work to a higher standard.

      Are you saying I should report my colleagues to the police for criminal negligence? They seemed like really nice people...

    7. Re:Professional responsibility by x0ra · · Score: 1

      AFAIK, in Canada, there is nothing criminal in professional irresponsibility. At worst, the crown would have to prove mens rea, which is pretty much impossible to prove on an employed individual.

  18. Say what? by nbritton · · Score: 1

    How many people died? They get paid leave?

    1. Re:Say what? by Mishotaki · · Score: 1

      they should say: "GM wastes 1.3 billion dollars.. and they still get paid! and they don't even have to work for it!" I still don't get that people get paid leave for stuff like that..

  19. One Question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    One engineer may have tried to re-engineer the faulty ignition switch without changing the part number—an unheard-of practice in the industry.

    Do engineers usually get to decide the part number of the part they design?

  20. Snowden by countach · · Score: 2

    I can see parallels here to the Snowden affair. Basically, if you blow the whistle on management acting unethically, you are screwed. Whether it's Snowden blowing the whistle on the Feds or some engineer blowing the whistle on GM management, there is no protection for someone wanting to do the right thing. This is how Nazi Germany got to where they ended up. We don't know if one of these engineers wanted to blow the whistle, but usually engineers want to engineer, they don't care about bean counting, so its a fair bet he wanted it done right, but wasn't allowed to.

    “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.” Edmund Burke.

    The way society is going, having good men do something gets harder and harder.

    1. Re:Snowden by khallow · · Score: 2

      Whether it's Snowden blowing the whistle on the Feds or some engineer blowing the whistle on GM management, there is no protection for someone wanting to do the right thing. This is how Nazi Germany got to where they ended up.

      Which is quite relevant actually. During the time of the Wiemar Republic, apparently in the 1920s, several would-be whistle blowers got murdered for knowing too much about violations of the Treaty of Versailles (for example, the secret development of military weapons, tanks, airplanes, naval ships, etc, and the creation of an illegal, shadow general staff for the military).

      Those violations in turn were a significant and necessary part of the transformation of Germany into the powerful, totalitarian, military machine that killed so many people. It's not as bad now (else we wouldn't have heard of Snowden), but lack of protection for whistle blowers can have monumentally lethal results.

    2. Re:Snowden by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whether it's Snowden blowing the whistle on the Feds or some engineer blowing the whistle on GM management, there is no protection for someone wanting to do the right thing. This is how Nazi Germany got to where they ended up.

      Which is quite relevant actually. During the time of the Wiemar Republic, apparently in the 1920s, several would-be whistle blowers got murdered for knowing too much about violations of the Treaty of Versailles (for example, the secret development of military weapons, tanks, airplanes, naval ships, etc, and the creation of an illegal, shadow general staff for the military).

      Those violations in turn were a significant and necessary part of the transformation of Germany into the powerful, totalitarian, military machine that killed so many people. It's not as bad now (else we wouldn't have heard of Snowden), but lack of protection for whistle blowers can have monumentally lethal results.

      Your message about whistle blowing is lost on me, all I gather from your comment is we should have done a better job spying on Germany.

    3. Re:Snowden by khallow · · Score: 1

      Your message about whistle blowing is lost on me, all I gather from your comment is we should have done a better job spying on Germany.

      Who's "we"? A lot of German citizens died as a result of not knowing the secret policies of their own government.

  21. Whew! by rsilvergun · · Score: 2

    Had me going there. For a minute I thought there might be some discussion that the people running GM might somehow be at fault. Thankfully they are blameless as always, and have rooted the true culprits in the form those dastardly engineers.

    Seriously though, I'm tired of being told that it's OK for these people to be super super rich because of all the value they add and the risks they take, when $#@! like this keeps happening and they never once take a hit. I know it's how ruling classes work and all, but it still sucks...

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:Whew! by Grishnakh · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Better yet, these people get to be super rich AND immune from any consequences for their mistakes and misdeeds, however the engineers working for them, who make middle-class salaries at best (and far less than doctors), are somehow expected to have "ethical standards" and are the first to be blamed when something goes wrong that was really because of a management decision.

    2. Re:Whew! by benjfowler · · Score: 1

      These overpaid C-suite motherfuckers may not be responsible. But they ARE accountable. Very important.

  22. GM Report for reeducation! by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 2
    You have failed the corporate overlords GM. This will not do.....

    What, exactly just what the fuck are you doing putting Engineers on leave?

    Corporate protocol demands that the guilty culprit must be either a Janitor, or a mailroom clerk!

    --
    The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
  23. Yeah right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Engineers DESIGN the part. The task to register, assign and record a part number belongs to a different group. In fact, you can't even update a production design document without the software bumping the version number automatically and flagging it as new.

    So the claim that engineers cover up the change in design is pure BS.

    They just found a few escape goats to blame as a PR stunt trying to cover up the gross negligence of the company's management team.

  24. INACCURATE by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    GM didn't name names. A government investigator did.
    Get your facts before you post. You all look like idiots now:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/11/business/gm-suspends-2-engineers-in-switch-inquiry.html

  25. From TFA

    Meanwhile, GM has said that it has sought the services of a NASA team, to consult on whether the affected vehicles are safe to drive.

    This is asinine CYA. It's safer to drive these cars than to unload your dishwasher and take a chance at stumbling and impaling yourself on a knife in the silverware basket.

    --
    (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    1. Re:Gak by iluvcapra · · Score: 1

      Ironically, NASA has almost certainly killed more people with the space shuttle than have died due to ignition switches.

      I haven't the slightest idea why they're going to NASA of all places for an engineering audit, whenever there's a shuttle accident it's always transpired that NASA has intractable compliance and engineering culture problems, and lack the capacity to properly validate a tricycle for safety, let alone a mass-produced motor vehicle. Their incompetence has literally cost the US a manned spaceflight program.

      They may be taking a page from Jack in the Box, when JITB hired NASA to completely overhaul their procedures after the salmonella deaths. Given NASA's record it's a miracle JITB burgers didn't all subsequently carry Ebola.

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    2. Re:Gak by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      FUCK YOU
      signed---- a competent NASA engineer

    3. Re:Gak by iluvcapra · · Score: 1

      Why don't you save it for your boss, smartass. Elon Musk is making you guys look like morons.

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    4. Re:Gak by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why don't you save it for your boss, smartass. Elon Musk is making you guys look like morons.

      No shit. He certainly convinced *me* of his competence (and, by logically fallacious extension, that of NASA) with his cogent, well-reasoned, and corroborated rejoinder.

      Oh, wait...

    5. Re:Gak by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

      Ironically, NASA has almost certainly killed more people with the space shuttle than have died due to ignition switches.

      I haven't the slightest idea why they're going to NASA of all places for an engineering audit, whenever there's a shuttle accident it's always transpired that NASA has intractable compliance and engineering culture problems, and lack the capacity to properly validate a tricycle for safety, let alone a mass-produced motor vehicle. Their incompetence has literally cost the US a manned spaceflight program.

      They may be taking a page from Jack in the Box, when JITB hired NASA to completely overhaul their procedures after the salmonella deaths. Given NASA's record it's a miracle JITB burgers didn't all subsequently carry Ebola.

      Just because your own organization is flawed doesn't mean you are incapable of identifying similar flaws in another. NASA has, as post-event investigations showed, a lot of people who are very capable of doing good engineering work as well as investigative work despite the culture. I would argue they could also be very good at finding similar issues in other companies and recommending fixes.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
  26. Managers are to blame by Sheik+Yerbouti · · Score: 1, Insightful

    GM Cars are designed by a crack team of accountants not engineers that's why they generally suck. Did anyone question the penny pinchers that directed the engineers that they must save 0.20 cents on each ignition switch?

  27. Nonsense by russotto · · Score: 1

    Making mid-production changes in parts without changing the part number -- at least the customer-visible part number -- is not unheard-of, it's common.

    1. Re:Nonsense by vux984 · · Score: 1

      Making mid-production changes in parts without changing the part number -- at least the customer-visible part number -- is not unheard-of, it's common.

      Its not merely common its 'frustratingly common'.

      I've experienced this time and again ordering replacement parts for a variety of cars. Usually the differences don't matter. The replacement is shaped a bit different, improved in some way, or the material is slightly different, the item has been cost reduced in some way perhaps, or suppliers were changed, and the part still works and still fits fine... but its not identical to the original.

      That's generally not a big deal unless its a trip part. Then its maddening.

      For example, I ordered a replacement rocker switch for my 911 power window some months ago, by part number. The part that arrived was in a slightly different finish -- the original was a glossy black plastic, the replacement was a slightly textured/matte black plastic. It was different, not merely "new" vs "showing some wear".

      It fit and worked fine, but didn't match the switch for the passenger side window (which was right next to it on the drivers armrest) 100%.

    2. Re:Nonsense by vux984 · · Score: 1

      That's generally not a big deal unless its a trip part

      trim part

    3. Re:Nonsense by Animats · · Score: 1

      It's prohibited in aerospace, where you have traceability back through the production process, but not unheard of in automotive. In electronics manufacturing, some changes are permitted. Here's Flextronics policy on component changes.

  28. Calling in NASA? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Looks like someone is too big not to fail.

    1. Re:Calling in NASA? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't understand what spaceships have to do with this?
      Why don't they call, oh.. I don't know, some engineers from a company that manufactures switches.

  29. Absolutely Disgusting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Companies let these things happen.

    It's like where you work - you're free to speak of problems, but if you do prepare to face the consequences of being honest. The reason the Engineer probably even attempted to change the part was because if he'd followed the process he would have been flayed alive. It's corporate culture, that's it.

    These problems happen, it's an accepted risk of sitting in a large piece of metal that travels over 100 km/h - something might break and you might die.

    This is down to GM being a horrible company who force their employees to act in this manner, enforce an obviously horrible corporate culture where CEOs and/or Managers take no responsibility and in the end let people die as part of their ongoing risk factors.

    See here for how a real CEO should act: http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/toyota-ceo-akio-toyodas-testimony-congress/story?id=9924855: "The CEO of Toyota, Akio Toyoda, told Congress he took "full responsibility" for the safety defects in the company's cars that have been linked to the deaths of 39 Americans.".

  30. Former Automotive Test Engineer, Saturn Ion owner by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I own a 2004 Saturn Ion. I used to work as an automotive test engineer. Sometimes defects can be missed in testing, but the safety net is watching warranty returns. All car companies closely watch which parts are getting unusually high warranty return rates. When warranty rates get above certain level, a recall is suppose to be issued. A high level manager mostly likely thought they could get away with not doing it and save some money.

    I remember having to call 5 different locksmiths to find who could get the stuck key out of the ignition. The first four said they would not service an ION ignition keys because it had a design flaw and the guy nice enough to help me told me he could fix it, but it would break again because of a design flaw in the lock. This was 4 years ago.that it was already common knowledge that this was a problem. I have had my ignition system replaced 3 times. It breaks about every 2 years.

    I think the ignition switch engineer is likely the scapegoat, someone involved in warranty tracking is at fault.

    Risk vs Reward for engineer - Dilbert

    Reward - A cheap plastic frame with a certificate.
    Risk - Millions of people die.

  31. This by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Every change has drawings behind it, and a rev number change. Every one. Not doing so is a deliberate act to hide something.

  32. Seems to me it takes more than one guy... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So what if someone changes a part without changing the number? You mean nobody down the line noticed? At some point it needs to be manufactured, so you might as well point the finger at the mold and die maker or whatever machine setup change needed to be made for "part number 123xyz". There has to be a paper trail a mile wide on this...

    1. Re:Seems to me it takes more than one guy... by PPH · · Score: 1

      Could be an internal change that people on the line would never notice. A stiffer spring perhaps.

      Part numbering is a complex issue. GM might probably has an engineering policy in place for identifying part modifications. Not necessarily the part number, but a revision code. [Part numbers usually denote form, fit and function. If one of these changes, so does the part number. If two parts are interchangeable, they often get the same part number but a unique revision code.] Circumventing company policy usually warrants disciplinary action, including termination, at most companies.

      The other side of this is checks put in place to maintain configuration control and data integrity. Either more than just these two individuals were involved or the GM processes have some serious flaws. Checking revised documents into any decent document management system would include listing changes, new part numbers, revisions made, etc. If GM doesn't have adequate controls in place and these people are in a position to talk about that, the embarrassment factor might be enough to earn them comfortable retirement for their silence.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
  33. This could start a precedent... or some lawsuits by sigmabody · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I could see two potential outcomes, if blaming engineers for product flaws becomes commonplace...

    First, engineers will (or should) demand an indemnity clause as part of their employment contract, where the company agrees not to blame them publicly for any product flaws, and/or take any action which would identify them. Depending on the repercussions for the test cases, this might become a necessity for employees.

    Second, I could see some significant lawsuits for slander, since the company is causing real (and substantial, and more importantly provable) financial loss for the engineers they blame for product deficiencies. Unless they have a pretty solid intentional negligence defense, they could (and absolutely should) find themselves paying out a few million more to each engineer they throw under the metaphorical bus.

    Companies are responsible for their products, not the people they employ to make/provide them. Companies reap the rewards when they work, and bear the responsibility when they don't. Absent malicious negligence, naming/blaming individual employees is irresponsible at best, and should absolutely expose the company to civil liability.

  34. Senior managers - "personal responsibility" too? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The US Government just started to try collect "debts" owed by (now dead) parents from their living children. In some cases these debts are over 30 years old, and all the financial information is lost - other than the government simply saying the debt exists.

    Let's get the name of the senior government official who created this little scheme as well. If this can (and / or should) happen to Engineers - let's let it happen to individual senior managers as well. If "personal responsibility" is now key to your job - let's let that go across the board.

    * Did the Engineers managers approve the designs?

  35. Justice would impress me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I would be even more impressed if the manages who refused to the change were charged with criminal negligence, reckless endangerment and 13 counts of manslaughter.

    Make them 3 strike losers and lock the fuckers in prison forever.

  36. False equivalence. by Raven42rac · · Score: 1

    A mail outage isn't the same as a fatal design flaw.

    --
    I hate sigs.
  37. Oh Mr High and Mighty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well your post is bullshit. You wrote it in broken and bastardized English. A period should go where your comma is thus capitalizing "it" and "Lets" has an apostrophe because it is a contraction. Here is where you can take off your blinders and realize your house is made of glass too so perhaps you shouldn't throw stones.

    1. Re:Oh Mr High and Mighty by ttucker · · Score: 1

      You are defending computer generated plagiarism, and terrible Slashdot editorial quality, by trifling over punctuation?

  38. "responsibility" -newspeak-blame little guy by epyT-R · · Score: 1

    Then I never want to work in a critical position that demands that I solve intractable problems. I think the real answer here is to quit overdoing the plumbing. Needed complexity is understandable. Needless complexity is stupid. Just because we can put the computer in control of everything doesn't mean we should.

  39. Not Hero by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    More likely the engineer changed the part to cover his ass.

    Or, if his intentions were good, he's the arrogant kind of prick that infests /. who thinks he knows better than anyone, and that management is a bunch of doody-heads.

    You know, hero.

  40. NOT engineer's fault by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    Everyone is SO fscking focused on the engineers. Yes, I am one. Here's my view:

    What about part inspection and quality control? That switch has a detent holding force spec. Does NOBODY inspect batches of switches? No random sample tests? Doesn't someone do a final check on the car? Someone sits in it and turns the key, right? Didn't anyone notice the detent force was lacking?

    If the switch detent holding force is this critical, then _EVERY_ switch should have been tested. It would be trivial to make a test jig and would be a 2-second automated test.

    There are _many_ reasons this could have happened, accidentally or intentionally. It's not only engineers who can make changes. There are many examples in history where the maker / builder deviates from the engineered plans. St. Louis skywalk comes to mind: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyatt_Regency_walkway_collapse

    1. Re:NOT engineer's fault by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The line workers reported this problem as well. The GM managers told the line workers they were going to fix it, that they were working on a fix. My father in law, a line worker, was eventually told to drop it or there would be consequences. This crap happened all the time at GM, they just finally got caught with their pants down.

  41. That engineer's name? by Richy_T · · Score: 1

    Tyler Durden

  42. There's one thing you can be sure of. by hey! · · Score: 1

    This is a self-serving move by GM.

    Perhaps the engineers named are responsible for the deaths caused by the faulty switch. Perhaps they are not. We don't know. But we can be certain that GM is naming these engineers in the hope that the public will blame and vilify them instead of the company.

    This is an attempt to evade corporate responsibility disguised as an act of transparency. Even if the engineers bear some responsibility for the faulty design reaching production vehicles, it should be impossible for two engineers alone to put an obviously unsafe assembly into a production car, even if they conspire to do that *deliberately*. Obvious flaws should have been caught in design reviews, non-obvious flaws in prototyping and testing.

    --
    Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    1. Re:There's one thing you can be sure of. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sure they meant this to be self-serving move, but I would think this will be a self lobotomizing move over time. Pretty soon their engineering staff consist mostly of people who can't get employed elsewhere.

  43. we already do by AdamWill · · Score: 1

    "The next time your mail goes down, should we know the name of the guy whose code flaw may have caused that?""

    Two words for you: "git blame".

  44. The story stinks by FaxeTheCat · · Score: 1

    If one or two engineers can change a part as is claimed here, and the part actually get installed in the car without any warning flags are reaised, the control systems at GM are obviously not up to a minimal standard.
    The design would need to go through several stages before it reaches the car. Changes in a part require changes in the parts production. Can one or two engineers engineer authorize that? Me thinks not.
    And publishing the names of the engineers just show how spineless the management are.

    I smell a scapegoat here.

    1. Re:The story stinks by Jumunquo · · Score: 1

      Years before they redesigned the part, they also sent key covers and service announcements to all the dealerships, although they made it seem like a minor thing, so the key cover distribution was sort of spotty. I'm sure this was the work of these two guys also. Uh-huh. And then you have to ask, how did these two guys know it was faulty and seriously so in the first place? Most likely, warranty repair reports. The key cover was the quick fix. When they got more reports, they redesigned it. Who handles the warranty and repair reporting? And when they get reports, I'm sure they try to test and repro - you wouldn't send out key covers to all dealerships w/o testing it at all, right? - who handles testing reported parts defects and the quick fixes (like key covers) to them? And when something spans this many departments, I do not see any way there are not at least some high level managers, possibly VPs or even higher, involved to direct the effort and approve the expenditures.

  45. Its really up to NASA to decide by Bob_Who · · Score: 1

    This isn't rocket science... why ask any scientist less qualified than an astronaut? GM built the lunar module, so NASA is very qualified to stall a car on the moon..

    1. Re:Its really up to NASA to decide by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

      This isn't rocket science... why ask any scientist less qualified than an astronaut? GM built the lunar module, so NASA is very qualified to stall a car on the moon..

      Ignoring the humor in your post and not being pedantic that the LEM and Rover were two different items, NASA has a lot of experience with finding out what lead to a bad decision that result in significant, or catastrophic, failures and accidents. More to the point, if they used what was learned from investigations into what lead up to Challenger and Columbia they could shed a lot of light on GM's corporate culture and decision making process.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    2. Re:Its really up to NASA to decide by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Becuase Feynmann isn't available -- Dale Manny

    3. Re:Its really up to NASA to decide by Bob_Who · · Score: 1

      Correct on all counts, and thank you for reminding me the "Rover" had the GM branding, moon roof, and radial tires...it was driving me to ...lunacy.

  46. Doesn't Matter Where You Work by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The aim of all internal investigations is to find the the people furthest down on the totem pole you can blame for the ordeal, discipline them to redirect attention from the executives who were really at fault, and move on.

  47. Editors, do your job for a change. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    >The next time your mail goes down, should we know the name of the guy whose code flaw may have caused that?

    Are you stupid? There's a world of difference between your mail being unavalable and a flaw in a vehicle that can cause people to die. Slashdot is such shit these days.

    1. Re:Editors, do your job for a change. by x0ra · · Score: 1

      Looks at CVE-2014-0160 and the almost public shaming the guy has to go though for an understandable bug. The same behaviour in software is not that far away...

  48. Re:Real Engineers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    High school dropouts? I don't think so. Truth is, as the recent OpenSSL debacle shows, most people are incompetent retards. It doesn't matter that they came from MIT or a correctional school. They are the real terrorists. Will the escalator I ride on my way to work just blow up? It's not a question of if but when.

  49. Yeah, I've seen this before by mark_reh · · Score: 1

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

    Management gets credit for rooting out the evil engineers and probably gets a bonus.

  50. Re:Hero ? Hero ? really ? by vpness · · Score: 1

    why is this modded up? the poster said that they were guessing. Moded up as we cannot believe that an engineer was human, that they f'd up, then tried to cover it up? Granted, this sniffs correct, but the 'hero' label is waaay over the top. Would love some facts from some of the other posters who do/did work in the auto industry and GM: 1 - how often does a part get modified - like in this case it was off a smidge, but otherwise unchanged 2 - how often does a part just get modified without some QA oversight? (IOW, why didn't QA and all that 6 sigma crap get fired too ?) 3 - can an engineer just make this change, independently, and manufacturing or the OEM will now retool this silly little part and just do it? what I'd really want to know, tho: a) is were the engineers who made the change in design, aware of the accidents and death caused as a result of this bad design? b) we keep hearing it was a $0.20 part. But what were the recall costs?

  51. Re:This could start a precedent... or some lawsuit by Theaetetus · · Score: 1

    I could see two potential outcomes, if blaming engineers for product flaws becomes commonplace...

    First, engineers will (or should) demand an indemnity clause as part of their employment contract, where the company agrees not to blame them publicly for any product flaws, and/or take any action which would identify them. Depending on the repercussions for the test cases, this might become a necessity for employees.

    Although it would be a good idea, it'll never happen... at least not until get you get Engineer Unions who refuse to work unless a company implements those clauses and prevent any scabs from working. And with the libertarian bent of most Engineers, that will never happen. Otherwise, you'll simply have the engineer refuse to sign the company's boilerplate employment agreement because it doesn't include an indemnity clause; and the company will show him the door and bring in the next candidate who will sign it.

    Second, I could see some significant lawsuits for slander, since the company is causing real (and substantial, and more importantly provable) financial loss for the engineers they blame for product deficiencies. Unless they have a pretty solid intentional negligence defense, they could (and absolutely should) find themselves paying out a few million more to each engineer they throw under the metaphorical bus.

    Not necessarily, depending on what was said. Slander requires that the statement be false. Did the engineer screw up? If so, then it's not slander. The only way it would be is if the engineer did nothing other than follow explicit instructions from his superiors, and considering that he apparently made a change without changing a part number, that would seem unlikely.
    Also, there's no such things as "intentional negligence" - that's an oxymoron, and would mean that you intended to do something by accident. What you may be thinking of is gross recklessness.

    Companies are responsible for their products, not the people they employ to make/provide them. Companies reap the rewards when they work, and bear the responsibility when they don't. Absent malicious negligence, naming/blaming individual employees is irresponsible at best, and should absolutely expose the company to civil liability.

    There's a gloss here - these are Professional Engineers, with certifications, licensing, and ethical requirements. PEs are also responsible for the things they sign off on, and may be held professionally accountable for their screw-ups. Now, that said, yes, the company is the one who is civilly liable for any damages from their products and no customer can sue the engineer directly, but that doesn't mean that (a) the company can't sue the engineer if they really were reckless; and (b) the company can't even name the engineer.

  52. Suspension by hackus · · Score: 1

    CEO gets gigantic bonus for driving the company into the ground AND getting those pesky engineers.

    Job well done!

    --
    Got Geometrodynamics? Awe, too hard to figure out? Too bad.
  53. What is the purpose of management? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If low-level employees should take full responsibility for their actions, then management has no reason to exist. Simple as that.
    A good leader passes on praise and takes blame. I've seen neither process at GM.

  54. Management to take the heat by shuz · · Score: 1

    Typically in a business the management structure is paid more the closer you get to the CEO of that company. They are compensated more because, as the theory goes, they are responsible for the assets below them. Being responsible means that you need to have visibility and control over what you are responsible for and take the blame and credit for what might go wrong or right. If two engineers were put on leave, than I hope that the managers over them were also educated on how the engineers made poor decisions and how they might avoid the issue in the future. If the engineers kept this a secret, I would expect the QA and change control departments would catch the mistake(of hiding a change without changing the version number). To buy a story that just two engineers could have sole blame in a faulty component affecting 2 million vehicles is ridiculous or the result of some pretty poor management. My point, if two engineers were put on leave and potentially fired, some subset of the management above them should also be fired.

    --
    There is or can be built a machine that can simulate any physical object. -Church-Turing principle
  55. Re:This could start a precedent... or some lawsuit by sigmabody · · Score: 1

    Well, speaking as a [software] engineer...

    In my profession, there are certainly certifications one can get, and ethical considerations (as a general statement), although there is no particular licensing. Regardless of these, though, I am employed to write software, but I would not certify that the software I write is flaw-free (nor would anyone else that I know). It's entirely possible that, due to flaws in my work product, someone will lose money, or have other negative outcomes befall them.

    If that happened, and my employer blamed me publicly (explicitly or implicitly), I would be seeking large monetary damages, even if the flaw was my fault. My argument would be that I'm employed to write software, not write flaw-free software, and if the company causes me damages (in current or future income) by stating or implying that I did not perform by work duties appropriately, then that is slander, and they are liable. In this case, the "lie" would be to imply that my work product was supposed to be flaw-free, which I never asserted or consented to, regardless of what they desired. Implying that someone is unable to perform one's occupation is textbook slander, and the company would find themselves writing a large check. And yes, even naming the engineer in this context, without strong evidence of gross or malicious negligence, would be cause for civil penalty (imho).

    I guess it just comes down to this: there are laws which protect people from having their lives and/or livelihood ruined by false accusation (direct or implied), and implying that an engineer must create a flaw-free work product to be proficient is a false accusation (unless there's a specific contractual obligation to do so, and that would seem suspicious). If I were a company considering this, I'd think twice, and then not expose myself to the obvious liability.

  56. Re:This could start a precedent... or some lawsuit by Theaetetus · · Score: 1

    If that happened, and my employer blamed me publicly (explicitly or implicitly), I would be seeking large monetary damages, even if the flaw was my fault. My argument would be that I'm employed to write software, not write flaw-free software, and if the company causes me damages (in current or future income) by stating or implying that I did not perform by work duties appropriately, then that is slander, and they are liable. In this case, the "lie" would be to imply that my work product was supposed to be flaw-free, which I never asserted or consented to, regardless of what they desired.

    With all due respect, that's not only not slander, and you'd lose any such suit, you'd also make yourself permanently unemployable - no company would ever touch you with a ten foot.

    Implying that someone is unable to perform one's occupation is textbook slander, and the company would find themselves writing a large check.

    Not if, as you acknowledge, you are unable to complete the services for which you were paid. While you may think that you weren't hired to make bug-free software, the employer - and any jury - would disagree.

  57. Find a scape goat by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sure, why not hunt down engineers and kill them?

  58. Not liable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As an engineer I know it is common practice to sign papers that state anything I design is my company's property. If my designs make them money that is good. But if there is a problem with the design later should I be blamed? Not fair, I am not liable for anything.

  59. Management by benjfowler · · Score: 1

    Management are paid the big bucks, because in theory, they are held accountable when fuckups happen.

    We keep on being told that meritocracy is the American Way. But what I see here, are a bunch of overpaid slimebags avoiding accountability, avoiding responsibility, and hanging the engineers out to dry.

    If Barra has any personal integrity whatsoever, she should accept responsibility for this, and for lying to Congress, and fall on her sword.

    Or is "personal responsibility" only for the little people?

  60. email admins don't kill people by swschrad · · Score: 1

    my 120,000 or so dslams aren't life or death. the folks one floor above me in 911/E911, now THOSE folks have a sword over their heads.

    anybody working with a life-safety part or service, there is no room for half-ass work. clearly the process at GM was shot full of holes and "don't bother me," and they're going to end up answering to the Justice Department.

    as it should be.

    --
    if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
  61. Most engineers in the US are not professionally ce by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Licensing is done at the state level and generally apply to designs that reside within the state - bridge, dam, etc. An "industrial exemption" exists for widgets that may be sold out of state like cars or radios. AFAIK, most PEs are civil engineers and can't recall ever working with someone with a PE in 30+ years (circuit and chip design).

  62. Re:Real Engineers by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

    Escalators don't blow up. They fall open and grind you up like a slow motion wood chipper. Feet first.

    In case any /. phobics don't have enough to obsess on.

    --
    John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  63. GM names names by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I am curious if any of you responders actually work in the automotive OEM industry. First everyone should note that the ignition switch in question is NOT manufactured by GM but is purchased from an approved supplier. The GM engineer is only responsible to make sure that the part functions correctly and even then might be relying on validation testing that is done by the supplier and not GM. Secondly the validation testing might not include a test where circumstances can cause the switch to rotate to the OFF position. I think it would be interesting to find out where and when the incidents occurred and what the driver's key chain looked like. I am sure that none of them were just a single key "probably a key with lots of other keys and key chain charms with lots of weight".

    Now a few facts about what happens when the key turns off and the engine stops. The first thing to go is the power steering but that doesn't mean NO STEERING just very much higher effort to turn the wheels. So while steering becomes extremely difficult it is not impossible. Next comes the power brakes. Power brake systems rely on vacuum created by the running engine to add assist in pushing the peddle. If the vacuum is lost then the assist is gone but only after applying the brakes a couple of times. What that means is that when the engine turns off you have only 2 or three peddle pushes before full braking is lost. This has been the case since power brakes were introduced and when I first got my license that was taught to everyone in driver's school. Please note that when I go my license power brakes were an option and expensive. Also regarding the brakes, losing the engine does not affect the "E" brake which can stop a vehicle if there isn't any power to the drive wheels (which there isn't due to the engine not running).

    Back to the ignition switch. When the incident of an ignition switch accidentally rotating and turning off the engine GM would have initiated a process which would provide a risk analysis of what might happen is it occurred. That would include the potential number of switches that might act like this (short term and long term) and the potential consequences if it happens. Depending upon the report there are three potential options to choose. One, do nothing. Two start a silent recall (that is, if a customer comes in complaining of a faulty working switch then just replace it free of charge. Three start an open recall and replace all vehicle ignition switches. As you can see each will have its own cost to GM and being a "for profit" company it will make the decision that best meets it financial goals and not necessarily what is best for the public good. (the result of a capitalist financial system).

    I personally have worked and designed automotive components at the OEM (Tier1 and Tier2) level and before I would any decision about who is at fault I would want to get more information such as when was the problem discovered and when did new better updated parts start being used. For those people who were injured I would like to know what the vehicle was and how old was it and where did the accident occur. I will say that changing a part without changing the part number is a big no-no in the industry and in my 30+ years have never seen that happen but obviously it can. Also, everyone should realize that due to the amount of media coverage this incident is getting heads must roll and the easiest to do that with is the engineer responsible. I would be very interested in the documentation (letters, email, drawings, test results, etc.) that was generated since the problem was first detected. One might find out that the ultimate person responsible for not changing the part number could have come at a much higher level.

    Just sayin'

  64. Updated parts by Martin+S. · · Score: 1

    One engineer may have tried to re-engineer the faulty ignition switch without changing the part numberâ"an unheard-of practice in the industry.

    In my experience this is quite common, the part number identifies the requirement/role, not the actual part implementation. If you buy a Original Equipment, 3rd pattern part or cheapo import they always have the same part-number.

    For example STC4382 is the part number for a wheel bearing on various Land Rovers and is the same for Original Land Rover Part, BritPart pattern replacement or superior Timken replacement.