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Detroit: America's Next Tech Boomtown
jfruh writes: "Over the past few years, the growth rate in Detroit tech jobs has been twice the natural average. The reason is the industry that still makes Detroit a company town: U.S. automotive companies are getting into high tech in a big way, and need qualified people to help them do it. Another bonus: the rent is a lot cheaper than it is in San Francisco. '[A]ccording to Automation Alley's 2013 Technology Industry Report, the metro Detroit area grew to a total of 242,520 technology industry jobs in 2011, representing a 15% increase from the 2010 level of 210,984 technology industry jobs. No other benchmarked region had greater technology industry growth than metro Detroit in this period. Further, according to the report, this growth helped propel metro Detroit to a ranking of fourth among the 14 benchmarked regions, passing San Jose."
If true, this is great for Detroit. That said, what the heck is the "natural average" of job growth?
Finding God in a Dog
I heard that they gave Omni Consumer Products^W^W^W Google to clean up the town. They're doing something with drones.
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
Wanted: People who are smart enough to work in tech, but dumb enough to live in an unsafe place.
Coder's Stone: The programming language quick ref for iPad
Over the past few years, the growth rate in Detroit tech jobs has been twice the natural average.
It's not just growth. Detroit has had lots of tech jobs for decades. It's been in the top 5 markets for many types of tech jobs for a long time. There is an ENORMOUS amount of technology that goes into automobile manufacturing. Robotics, CAD, industrial automation, materials science, welding, forming, coatings, chemicals, software and more. There are very few places in the USA with a higher density of engineering talent and opportunity.
Oh and before someone makes yet another ill informed remark about Detroit City, don't confuse Metro Detroit with Detroit City. Oakland County, immediately to the north of Detroit is one of the 10 wealthiest counties in the entire USA and has a AAA credit rating. Michigan is actually a really nice place to live, especially if you love the outdoors. Ann Arbor which is close by is a fantastic college town too if that suits your sensibilities.
in that area of the country? it does not seem so, to me. seems more like deep red states, more or less. not exactly what tech people flock to, to be honest.
Yes, because conservative views have turned the tech industry off from flocking to Texas for jobs. There's a sarcasm tag embedded there.
Light a fire for a man and he'll be warm for a day. Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
I went back for a visit last winter. It's sad. There are tiny pockets of hold outs and then the rest is just a free for all. Scrappers have gutted ever bit of available metal from any empty building not staffed with armed guards. This is best done with a sledge hammer and torch. The buildings are not recoverable after that. The roads are worse than a dirt road. At least gravity levels those out a bit. Then there's the crime.
.5 miles away: "Don't they realize when things get bad enough they're gonna be food for the locals?" He just laughed and said no.
I found a hipster pocket in DelRay. Perhaps one of the most obliterated areas. The homes are early 20th cen and cute. They sell for about $10 - 100. If you can find a buyer. There was a 2 block section of white hipsters fixing up their little gems. Baby strollers, all the trimmings. And I commented to a friend who still lives about
Nothing has really changed there. Sadly it won't. The mentality is still the same. No matter how much money you throw at it. The city is corrupt from the ground up and has been for 100+ yrs. The new mayor may help. But he'll most likely give up like Archer did. Without a major paradigm shift in mentality it will always be Detroit.
I'm a Rust Belt kid, so seeing northern cities on something of a comeback trajectory is a good thing to me. The problem is image -- you have to find techies who are willing to put up with a very messed up local economy and deal with winter. I'm from Buffalo, and winters there are very long and cold. The obvious benefit is that the cost of living is much lower than California or similar. I couldn't believe last time I was in CA to visit a friend that they had just paid almost a million dollars for a 3-bedroom house with no property. I don't care how good the weather is, that's absolutely nuts, and I live in the NYC metro area, so I know about high real estate prices.
I think it's all cyclical. Right now where I am, everyone is moving to North Carolina (Why??) People cite a much lower cost of living. That's true -- you can sell your Long Island house and buy (literally) a mansion on several acres in NC. The only problem is that Charlotte, RTP, etc. are still cities and real estate that's close to jobs is going to be more. Your mansion is going to be 25 miles' drive from anywhere. Atlanta has a similar issue -- people deal with multi-hour commutes so they can live in a massive house inside a gated community in the middle of nowhere. Side note - a friend of mine who moved there for a job refers to Cary, NC as an acronym -- Containment Area for Relocated Yankees.
Personally, I love winter and would have no desire to move somewhere like Florida, Texas, or Arizona. Right now, those are the cheapest places business-wise, so jobs move there. But the northern states can play the game too. New York just gave some new businesses a 10 year tax holiday if they locate in certain parts of the state. All the state economic development agencies engage in this kind of poaching. The only problem is that the South is better at it because they don't fund schools and local governments to the same extent. If Michigan and Detroit are serious about this, and can afford it, then the businesses will move back. Executives don't care because they would either stay put or be happy just about anywhere. To them, it's not all that hard to pick up and move.
Low real estate prices, compact metro areas that mean short commute times, etc. are advantages that these states and cities can use. We'll see if it pans out.
I would die first before moving to texas. most of my friend also feel the same.
... and since the worldview of you and your friends equals 100% of tech employees... /sarc
the outright racism and bible-belt feel just is not compatible with many techies' view of what a good living area should offer.
Never actually been to the "bible-belt," have you? It shows in your bigotry against those of us who actually live here, the irony of which is not lost on me.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
Winters are no worse than New York City, Chicago, or Boston. Flyover? You mean like Chicago? Just wait till the next shoe drops on California and your water bill hits $600 a month unless of course you are poor and then they subside that so no one dies of thirst.
California is way too confident.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
> You mean like Chicago?
I change in Chicago when flying to the UK you insensitive clod!
I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
The tech in Texas is centered on Austin. The techies in Texas gravitate to the most progressive parts of Texas.
I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
I've spent about half of my life in Texas. I've lived in Houston, Dallas, and Austin. I've also lived in Silicon Valley, Seattle, and Southern California.
Every conversation about living in Texas I've had with a West Coaster:
"How can you stand living in Texas. Everyone is so bigoted and prejudicial?"
"Oh really, have you ever been there?"
"No."
"..."
Ah, you appear to be confusing "people interested in high tech" with "fanatical zealots of a dualistic ideology". One of these is actually progressive, the other is not.
Yanno, I can't help but think of this scene from the Kentucky Fried Movie whenever somebody suggests that something is going to go to Detroit.
This sig no verb.
Yeah, it's not like shifting globalized markets can turn one of the places with the best median standards of living into a slum over a couple decades. Yep, it's gotta be "those" people. You know "those ones". They're just incompatible with success.
I don't know if you're racist or anti-union, but either way, your opinions are just biases stated in words.
it's not the bigotry, its the fact they have no zoning laws and some megacorp can build a fertilizer plant next to residential housing and kill people when it explodes
or build some oil refinery next to someone's home and poison their air and water
in that area of the country? it does not seem so, to me. seems more like deep red states, more or less.
Detroit? Deep Red? Detroit has not had a Republican mayor in 50 years. Detroit is your liberal, socialist utopia. Liberals should be flocking there to bask in their success.
Today's Sesame Street was brought to you by the number e.
I would die first before moving to texas. most of my friend also feel the same.
You obviously haven't actually BEEN in Texas have you? There are parts of Texas I wouldn't give you a plug nickle for, but the techie parts of it are nice places to live. Dallas, Austin, Huston (less so) are great places to live. I've lived in Austin and Dallas and where both are unique, both are good places to live.
in all my life, I have never heard anyone EXCITED about moving to texas, at least for tech. sure, there is tech there but only for those that can stomach the texas lifestyle and redneck attitudes.
Yea, you've definitely NOT been here... Austin is ANYTHING but redneck in it's attitude. Dallas is a bit "cowboy" but that's NOT redneck either. Your preconceived notions about Texas are totally wrong. I got moved by my job, out of Texas, and I couldn't wait to get back. So you've now you have heard from somebody who was grateful to get transferred to Texas.
the outright racism and bible-belt feel just is not compatible with many techies' view of what a good living area should offer.
Again, you are so wrong. So very wrong... Texas is the most integrated culture I've lived in, if you measure it by looking at the diversity at various income levels. Yea, there are the poor, but your charge of racism is totally baseless, at least in the urban areas I've lived in. (cannot speak for what goes on out in the poorer country areas)
I would bet that Austin would come as a huge surprise to you. They may ware cowboy boots and hats, but don't let their looks fool you. It's obviously NOT what you think it is. I suggest you not knock it until you've tried it... But if you really have that bad of an attitude about Texas, go ahead and die so you won't have to risk moving here and ruining the place with your attitudes.
"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
The cities are full of so called 'progressives'. That's also where most of the poverty & crime come from in these states.. What a coincidence!
I wonder if that has anything to do with being where most of the people are to begin with.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
I no more want to live in Dallas than I do Detroit.
I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
I have been there. It is.
-josh
Right, because aside from cross country skiing, downhill, snowboarding, snowmobiling, hunting, sledding, playing outside with your kids, snuggling up with the fireplace (which is still far from ecologically incorrect in the midwest) with some good movies, there is absolutely nothing to do in the midwest during the winter.
Yeah, here's the other thing. Detroit is like many cities in the U.S. - the horrible parts of town get 100% of the media attention. What doesn't is the fact that like every city in history, there is always a nice part of town, and nice suburbs ringing the city that are where all the upper middle and upper income folks live. They live in a world so far removed from the horrors of the failing part of down town it may as well be on another planet.
$800-1000 /mo for a 2 bedroom apartment with full kitchen, living room, dining area and your own garage vs. San Francisco's $2000/mo to share a house with 3 or 4 other people. Then the cost of living factors in.
I don't even live in Detroit, let alone Michigan, but some of the claims being made in this thread are absurd. A good job is a good job, and there are very nice parts of Detroit far removed from the problem areas, and if you live in/below your means your money will go a hell of a lot further in the midwest than on the coasts. A lot of millionaires are being made among the Dave Ramsey crowd.
THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK.
That's why Mumbai, Bangalore, and New Dehli will never attract tech companies. And the climate! Typhoons, floods, droughts etc. And the malaria, cholera, typhus, and plauge. Nope. India will never develop a tech industry.
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
[citation] [citation] [citation] [citation] Why do the Canadians want to build a $7 billion pipeline instead of refining tar sand in Canada? Because refining tar sand is one of the filthiest processes on the planet. There are no regulations in Texas so spending $7 billion on a pipeline is the most profitable method of dealing with the fallout.
Difference is, "progressives" are more likely to have made long-term spending commitments which drive the economy into the ground when things aren't so good.
How you get moderated "insightful" for such nonsense is beyond me. Detroit's problems are rooted in race and the class system that existed there long before it became a republican talking point to blame Detroit's problems caused by "socialist liberalism". I like to think this is the kind of place such a black and white view of the world gets buried where it belongs.
it's not the bigotry, its the fact they have no zoning laws and some megacorp can build a fertilizer plant next to residential housing and kill people when it explodes
or build some oil refinery next to someone's home and poison their air and water
While I'm sure that Texas has totally managed to avoid the scourge of zoning laws, the California approach has its own drawbacks that are becoming apparent, especially as California is now practically speaking a one party state run by Democrats with super majorities able to pass whatever they want.
California: CEOs Rate It Worst U.S. Business Climate For 8 Years Running
Hundreds of Thousands Flee Democrat-Run California
Just How Bad is California’s Business Climate?
California, a bad bet for business - Why would new enterprises come to a state like this?
Texas v. California: The Real Facts Behind The Lone Star State's Miracle
State leaders closely watch migrating millionaires
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
What makes ME laugh about such articles is that Detroit is in the midst of some *serious* financial issues.
Detroit CITY is in the midst of such issues. Detroit METRO is largely unaffected. Oakland County immediately to the north of Detroit City is one of the ten wealthiest counties in the US and has a AAA credit rating. Guess where 80% of the population of Metro Detroit lives? (hint - it isn't in Detroit City)
Who would want to live anyplace near such a situation?
Because most people who live NEAR Detroit City don't live IN Detroit City and haven't for a long time. Metro Detroit is actually a very nice place to live and Michigan is absolutely beautiful. I know because I've lived there.
It's like a third world country in decline, with the crime, blight and debt in abundance.
If you think that then you really know nothing about it and clearly haven't visited the area. Yes there are some parts of Detroit City that are pretty crappy. That doesn't describe much of the rest of Michigan.
Nope, articles like this are just the dying gasps of the marketing company hired to try and attract new business to a sinking ship.
Automation Alley is not a marketing company. They are a sort of tech transfer organization/incubator that helps Michigan businesses grow. It's actually a pretty neat operation and I've been to events they hold. The studies they cite are actually well researched and factual. There are a HUGE number of tech jobs in Michigan and Metro Detroit has more engineers per square mile than all but a handful of cities in the US. There is an enormous amount of technology that goes into manufacturing and about 50 of the largest manufacturing companies plus their supply chains are headquartered in Michigan, most fairly close to Detroit.
I still remember when I was a kid and Indira Gandhi spent a gazillion dollars on upgrading the Indian university system with an emphasis on computers. Pretty much everyone that wasn't laughing were outraged that she was "wasting" that money instead of feeding the poor. I wonder where India would be now if she were still alive.
"Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
As they always have? Sorry, but "always" includes a period much longer than the past 20 years. Detroit was the economic powerhouse of the United States for decades until its business leaders caught the 'MBA Disease' and managed their companies into the ground.
"Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
I would die first before moving to texas. most of my friend also feel the same.
in all my life, I have never heard anyone EXCITED about moving to texas, at least for tech. sure, there is tech there but only for those that can stomach the texas lifestyle and redneck attitudes.
the outright racism and bible-belt feel just is not compatible with many techies' view of what a good living area should offer.
Wow, I'd say that post pretty much serves as a prime example of how to beclown oneself while simultaneously establishing oneself as a bigot of the first degree!
There's a reason that 3 of the top 10 cities of the US are in Texas today, and Austin's rising with a bullet, showing staggering 6.6% growth, a substantial portion of which is tech, although way too much of that is the social/mobile bubble. (Austin is #11 today, Detroit is 18, FWIW...) Yeah, pretty tolerable weather, awesome food and music, really nice people (yep, even "bible-belt rednecks"), a great tech scene w/o the backstabbing attitude, entrepreneurial dynamism and focus on results, Formula 1/SxSW/ACL - why would anyone even consider working here? If there's a weak spot in Texas, BTW, it's Austin, mostly because of its "progressive" dedication to regulating the crap out of everything they can. (Don't get me started about permits here - smart people start or move their companies nearby, not in, Austin...)
Oh, and a friend of mine from Detroit (who happens to be black) told me years ago (when he had been in Texas only a few months) that not only was he shocked to find that there were actually far fewer racists in Texas than in Michigan, but that he preferred even those racists because "at least here in Texas and the South, you know when people have a racist bias!" He didn't find that to be true in Detroit, his home town, despite the fact that he came from a fairly well-connected family (his Mom was in the state congress), which insulated him from some of the racial bias in the first place...
"The future's good and the present is nothing to sneeze at." - Roblimo's last
Democrats and labor unions have run Detroit for what, six decades? How much longer do they need to fix those "preexisting" issues? Or is it that their ideologies simply don't work?
It's a number ploy by a marketing firm...
It most assuredly is not a marketing ploy. There is a HUGE number of technology jobs in and around Detroit Metro and always has been because guess what? There is a LOT of technology that goes into manufacturing cars. Robotics, computers, automation, coatings, materials science, welding, forming, stamping, chemicals, etc. As the auto industry has bounced back from 2008-2009, job growth has rebounded too. It's actually not surprising at all that Detroit's job growth is rather high at the moment.
Trust me, you DON'T want to live anywhere near there..
Only morons who have never actually come to Michigan think that. Look, 80% of Detroit Metro is outside the City. Oakland Country which is immediately to the north of Detroit is one to the ten wealthiest counties in the US, has a AAA credit rating and is a genuinely nice place to live. Ann Arbor (20 miles west) is one if the nicest college towns you could ever want to visit and has some really cool business activity going on.
Just wait till the next shoe drops on California and your water bill hits $600 a month
Get rid of your lawn, and you can cut that by 90%. I replaced my lawn with a cactus garden.
unless of course you are poor and then they subside that so no one dies of thirst.
Water subsidies go to rich farmers, not poor people.
Now get off my cacti.
Never actually been to the "bible-belt," have you? It shows in your bigotry against those of us who actually live here, the irony of which is not lost on me.
Having moved from the Ozarks to Dallas, I can comfortably say 'bible belt my ass'. DFW is heathen by comparison to the actual bible belt.
People will go where the work is, whether they like it or not.
Tech unemployment is below 4%. We can afford to be choosy. I live in San Jose, CA, which has the best schools and the lowest crime of any big city in America. Today it is 72F, with clear blue skies, and tomorrow will be the same. I wouldn't move to Detroit if you tripled my salary.
Cars are no longer made in detroit. they are made in MExico and Canada. there is shipping of cars here at the depo, but the large bulk of Ford and GM cards are NOT made in the USA.
Honda and BMW cars are more American made than GM and Ford.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Let's not forget the world class symphony, an excellent opera company, a first rate art museum, three major sports teams, nearby excellent college teams (some people may have heard of Michigan and Michigan State), and amazing outdoor recreation opportunities. Some of the best kayaking in the midwest is a quarter mile from my back door. You can also forget wasting money on Carribean beach vacations: if you want beautiful beaches, there's nothing in the Carribean that can touch the beaches on Lake Michigan.
Easy Online Role Playing Campaign Management
Detroit was the economic powerhouse of the United States for decades until its business leaders caught the 'MBA Disease' and managed their companies into the ground.
I'm not sure exactly what the "MBA disease" is but the rise of professional managers in the '50s and '60s, as exemplified by the rise of Robert McNamara and the "Whiz Kids" at Ford, was actually a very good time for the US auto industry. What killed the US auto industry was a combination of 1.) building crap cars with terrible quality; 2.) not foreseeing the Oil Crisis of the '70s and that customers might actually want small, non-gas guzzler cars; and most importantly 3.) a dysfunctional relationship between management and unions that resulted in an outrageous, unsustainable cost structure. Management didn't have the courage to make necessary big cost structure changes, and they kept kicking the can down the road by promising huge pension and benefit increases that wouldn't have to be paid for until they had the retired and the next sucker got stuck with it. Wash, rinse, repeat. There was ample evidence that cars could be built well and profitably in the US, as the NUMMI joint venture between Toyota and GM proved, but doing so required big changes from both management and unions and neither were willing to budge from the system that had kept them fat and happy for decades.
It all nearly fell apart in the '90s (the rise of SUVs was all that saved Detroit back then) and then finally in '08. But the system had been rotting for decades and all it took was the right push to send it collapsing into a heap. If you're interested in what went wrong with the US auto industry and why, I highly recommend Crash Course by Paul Ingrassia. The This American Life episode on NUMMI is also brilliant and well worth a listen.
"95% of all Slashdot
The Democrat label means nothing. If Nixon was running in an election today, they'd have to put him on the ticket with the greens or something. Even Obamacare is basically Nixon's health care plan with the liberal parts eliminated. These Democrat and Republican labels have become so meaningless, they should just change their names to Blue Team and Red Team. It's much more accurate to say that GOP ideology, as put in practice by DNC candidates, is the poison in the system.
What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
in 30 years I've never, ever seen a minority person mistreated because of their race.
Slight Correction: I've never seen them mistreated by any other ordinary citizen. The legal system, however... But I'm pretty sure that's a problem no matter where you hail from.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
The reason all but one automotive assembly line has pulled out of Detroit is ...
One? Just one plant? Even if you are just talking about Detroit itself, ignoring the suburbs, there is a GM plant and 2 Chrysler plants in Detroit. But when people talk about Detroit and auto companies, they mean the entire metro detroit area. And in that area, there is:
Ford: (Wayne, Flat Rock)
GM: (Detroit, Orion)
Chrysler: (Detroit x 2, Sterling Heights, Warren)
So that's 8 auto assembly plants in metro Detroit. Yep, just one plant here.
It may seem to fit that partisan narrative, but you don't really know Detroit politics. The Big Three run Detroit, in any meaningful sense. The economy of the city is completely dependent on them, and as auto company jobs have declined since the 1950s, so has Detroit. GM just went bankrupt and Chrysler nearly did; it's hard to blame that on local Detroit politics.
Race problems have been huge. Much of the city's talent was effectively barred from eduction, productive employment, or decent housing for a long time. The riots in 1967 did not come from a vacuum, but from decades of oppression by the white population. You probably haven't read about the riots that would happen when a black person dared to move into a white neighborhood. George Wallace (former Alabama governor and ardent segregationist) won the 1968 Democratic primary in the city!
If you really want to understand Detroit and urban politics, and the role of race, read this history (which won the Bancroft Prize, among others):
The Origins of the Urban Crisis by Thomas Sugrue
I know what the weather is like, the last year that we lived there the first week in February the temperature never got above 10 below, and six months later the first week in August never got below 97 (even at night).
Wow. One week of cold and one week of hot. However did you manage to survive? [/sarcasm]
Wuss.
The problem with Austin is that it is surrounded by Texas and is at the mercy of the state legislator which, as the late great Molly Ivins would tell you, is one of the most stupid and reactionary in this country. Austin may be groovy and progressive but once you leave the corporate bounds of Austin you are in Texas, set your watch back 150 years.
Another day closer to redwood heaven
So by this time next year a couple thousand of those 4 million will be dead.
"Couple thousand"? By your own numbers we should expect around 360 murders (48/100,000*750,000), most of which will not occur anywhere near where most people actually go. Tens of thousands work downtown and Ford Field, Comerica Park, Joe Louis Arena, Detroit Institute of Art, Cobo Hall, Wayne State University, several casinos and quite a few other attractions are downtown. Few people ever have a problem. Get a clue.
There's a lot more to avoid in Detroit than the snow.
Why would I want to avoid either Detroit or the snow? Literally millions of people go to Detroit every year without any incident whatsoever. Most of Detroit City is no more dangerous than any other major metro area in the US. An most people DON'T LIVE IN DETROIT CITY.
Plus I like to ski and skate. Why would I avoid the snow?
The problem is, California keeps electing politicians that while they apparently are exactly what California thinks is good, look to the rest of the non-blue country as not so hot.
I dunno, California also gave the country the Republican presidents not named Bush for the last 75 years.
Maybe you should stop expecting people to congratulate you for being gay.
Maybe he's not looking for "congratulations." Not interested in pride parades, gay nightclubs, or any of that nonsense that a minority of gays fall for, but he doesn't want to have people go ape-shit if he casually mentions "his husband" the same way a straight man would reference his wife.