Detroit: America's Next Tech Boomtown

jfruh writes: "Over the past few years, the growth rate in Detroit tech jobs has been twice the natural average. The reason is the industry that still makes Detroit a company town: U.S. automotive companies are getting into high tech in a big way, and need qualified people to help them do it. Another bonus: the rent is a lot cheaper than it is in San Francisco. '[A]ccording to Automation Alley's 2013 Technology Industry Report, the metro Detroit area grew to a total of 242,520 technology industry jobs in 2011, representing a 15% increase from the 2010 level of 210,984 technology industry jobs. No other benchmarked region had greater technology industry growth than metro Detroit in this period. Further, according to the report, this growth helped propel metro Detroit to a ranking of fourth among the 14 benchmarked regions, passing San Jose."

Comments

FLYOVER

[Jeremiah Cornelius]

That's a fact.

Nobody dealin' with that winter, for rent.

Re:FLYOVER

[Anonymous Coward]

Detroit is the asshole of Michigan.
Flint is 50 miles up it.

Re:FLYOVER

[LWATCDR]

Winters are no worse than New York City, Chicago, or Boston. Flyover? You mean like Chicago? Just wait till the next shoe drops on California and your water bill hits $600 a month unless of course you are poor and then they subside that so no one dies of thirst.
California is way too confident.

Re:FLYOVER

[TechyImmigrant]

> You mean like Chicago?

I change in Chicago when flying to the UK you insensitive clod!

Re:FLYOVER

[Anonymous Coward]

or within the gang wars. Or the urban blight. Or the packs of wild dogs running the streets. Or....

Re:FLYOVER

[CanHasDIY]

That's a fact.

Nobody dealin' with that winter, for rent.

Funny, because Detroit isn't that far removed from St. Louis weather-wise, and STL is the tech hub of the midwest.

Slashdot's corporate masters will like this tidbit: Dice ranked Missouri as the fastest growing state in regards to tech jobs last year.

Of course, there's plenty of good reasons why tech companies wouldn't want to base out of Detroit, but the weather sure ain't one of them.

Re:FLYOVER

[Anonymous Coward]

Courtesy Dearbornistan

Re:FLYOVER

[Ol Olsoc]

That's a fact.

Nobody dealin' with that winter, for rent.

Not everyone is too fragile to handle a little weather.

Re:FLYOVER

[Scot Seese]

Right, because aside from cross country skiing, downhill, snowboarding, snowmobiling, hunting, sledding, playing outside with your kids, snuggling up with the fireplace (which is still far from ecologically incorrect in the midwest) with some good movies, there is absolutely nothing to do in the midwest during the winter.

Yeah, here's the other thing. Detroit is like many cities in the U.S. - the horrible parts of town get 100% of the media attention. What doesn't is the fact that like every city in history, there is always a nice part of town, and nice suburbs ringing the city that are where all the upper middle and upper income folks live. They live in a world so far removed from the horrors of the failing part of down town it may as well be on another planet.

$800-1000 /mo for a 2 bedroom apartment with full kitchen, living room, dining area and your own garage vs. San Francisco's $2000/mo to share a house with 3 or 4 other people. Then the cost of living factors in.

I don't even live in Detroit, let alone Michigan, but some of the claims being made in this thread are absurd. A good job is a good job, and there are very nice parts of Detroit far removed from the problem areas, and if you live in/below your means your money will go a hell of a lot further in the midwest than on the coasts. A lot of millionaires are being made among the Dave Ramsey crowd.

Re:FLYOVER

[jtroy92]

Stories like this one about the "next Silicon Valley" have been coming out pretty consistently for the past twenty years. As have predictions like yours of their imminent demise. In the meantime the place keeps right on growing.

Re:FLYOVER

[bobbied]

Nobody dealin' with that winter, for rent.

The winters are not *that* bad, a bit cold and snowy, but you can get used to that.

What makes ME laugh about such articles is that Detroit is in the midst of some *serious* financial issues. Anybody recall that it is in the midst of a huge and nasty bankruptcy? The city is struggling to keep services up to minimal levels and is considering just bulldozing hundreds of thousand abandoned houses rather than keep supplying police, fire, utilities and other city services.

Who would want to live anyplace near such a situation? It's like a third world country in decline, with the crime, blight and debt in abundance.

Nope, articles like this are just the dying gasps of the marketing company hired to try and attract new business to a sinking ship. They desperately need tax payers and at this point are willing to do ANYTHING (including outright lying) to attract them. DON'T go, it's a trap.

Re:FLYOVER

[bobbied]

You forgot to mention the bankruptcy....

Re:FLYOVER

[LWATCDR]

And Detroit still makes cars. You will not see it coming until it is too late.
It will take a while or it may never happen but I would not dismiss it. Frankly Silicon Valley is probably no better for the tech industry than Detroit was for the car industry. It is a little bubble and is too confident and or arrogant to see that it has some real problems. The cost of living is really high so eventually start ups will get choked off by the cost of relocating to SV and all you will have in the way of startups will be spin offs of existing companies.
Look at the "inbreeding" of developers and management in SV today.
From a national point of view the over concentration of venture capital is also a problem. Eventually after a few dozen more pets.com the VCs will dry up and inovation will move not to other loctions in the US but other nations!
A more diverse and dispersed tech industry is needed. Thank goodness for Texas and the Austin tech hub as well as Dallas and Houston.
Oh and if you do not believe that this can happen? Did you know that the hub of computer innovation in the 1960s and early 1970s was not in SV but in Mass? Companies like DEC and Data General where where the innovation was.

Re:FLYOVER

[ShanghaiBill]

Just wait till the next shoe drops on California and your water bill hits $600 a month

Get rid of your lawn, and you can cut that by 90%. I replaced my lawn with a cactus garden.

unless of course you are poor and then they subside that so no one dies of thirst.

Water subsidies go to rich farmers, not poor people.

Now get off my cacti.

Re:FLYOVER

[synapse7]

Yesterday I heard it is possible to buy a house with land in Detroit for 1,000USD.

Re:FLYOVER

[RavenLoon]

Oddly, I moved from the Detroit area to Phoenix a few years ago, and my water bill dropped significantly.

When the need becomes sufficient, California (and Arizona, and even Nevada by proxy*) will pay for desalting. The average home's water bill might "only" increase by about $50 or $60 a month. Note that that figure is based on current technology, not on whatever amazing breakthroughs are predicted over the next few years, either.

*Las Vegas obviously wouldn't ship (pipeline) desalted water from the Pacific, but they could (for example) pay for a few desalting plants *for* LA in exchange for (some of) LA's share of Colorado River water. Phoenix probably could pipeline up from the Sea of Cortez (the appropriate treaties with Mexico are already in place, I understand), but the proxy arrangement might make more sense there, too, as the Colorado already feeds the state-wide canal systems (Central Arizona Project, or CAP), which would greatly simplify delivery.

Arizona actually has banked a 5 to 6 year supply of water, even after years of drought; remember in 2008 (?) when Atlanta had less than a 30 day supply left? People who bemoan Phoenix's supposed water-unsustainability tend to do so out of ignorant assumptions; for instance, local surface rainfall has never been sufficient for Phoenix (and thus Phoenix never depended on it), but most water-sustainability studies start from that or similar assumptions that don't apply to Phoenix's situation, and never have. Meanwhile, Tucson, with a much worse natural water supply profile, is one of the world's best studies in urban water management and conservation.

Arizona also requires developers to prove a 100 year supply before they can build new neighborhoods. This is typically done by purchasing guarantees of future Colorado River allocations. (This does present a potential "shell game" problem based on where the water is bought and where it is used, but it's a problem that has been recognized and can be solved.)

Desalting is the final ace up the sleeve, but there's still no imminent sign of needing to play that card, and in the meantime, the expected price tag will almost certainly continue to shrink.

LA lives like it'll never have to pay for desalting, but Phoenix lives like it wants to delay having to pay for it as long as possible.

Re:FLYOVER

[Lumpy]

Cars are no longer made in detroit. they are made in MExico and Canada. there is shipping of cars here at the depo, but the large bulk of Ford and GM cards are NOT made in the USA.

Honda and BMW cars are more American made than GM and Ford.

Re:FLYOVER

[Anonymous Coward]

Get rid of your lawn, and you can cut that by 90%. I replaced my lawn with a cactus garden.

Replacing a grass lawn with a cactus garden violates the terms of many homeowners' associations. Keeping property values steady requires verdant grassy lawns. Think about your community, not just yourself.

Re:FLYOVER

[ganjadude]

dont forget north carolina, That place is a boom these days as well

Re:FLYOVER

[ClayDowling]

Let's not forget the world class symphony, an excellent opera company, a first rate art museum, three major sports teams, nearby excellent college teams (some people may have heard of Michigan and Michigan State), and amazing outdoor recreation opportunities. Some of the best kayaking in the midwest is a quarter mile from my back door. You can also forget wasting money on Carribean beach vacations: if you want beautiful beaches, there's nothing in the Carribean that can touch the beaches on Lake Michigan.

Re:FLYOVER

[Anonymous Coward]

No, you can lease it from government. If you don't pay their high and illegal property tax, then they take it from you. This is in effect a lease, where the government can change the rate and amount, any time they like.

Re:FLYOVER

[ClayDowling]

>Nope, articles like this are just the dying gasps of the marketing company hired to try and attract new business to a sinking ship. They desperately need tax payers and at this point are willing to do ANYTHING (including outright lying) to attract them. DON'T go, it's a trap.

If you're interested in high tech manufacturing with a skilled workforce, it would be hard to find a better place than the automation alley counties. What you'll spend in wages will be more than made up in productivity. And you won't be spending a fortune in recruiting costs. If you build a factory your staffing problem won't be finding qualified workers, engineers or tradesmen, but getting a big enough HR department to hire them.

Re:FLYOVER

[tlambert]

If you're interested in high tech manufacturing with a skilled workforce, it would be hard to find a better place than the automation alley counties. What you'll spend in wages will be more than made up in productivity. And you won't be spending a fortune in recruiting costs. If you build a factory your staffing problem won't be finding qualified workers, engineers or tradesmen, but getting a big enough HR department to hire them.

The reason all but one automotive assembly line has pulled out of Detroit is that the unions wouldn't allow that much automation, or you were "allowed" to have it, but you had to still hire the same number and type of workers to satisfy the contracts, so it didn't do crap to change your value to unit labor cost ratio.

You are an absolute idiot if you locate a manufacturing facility in a state where the unions are in charge of whether or not you get labor, and you can't push costs down by automation.

Most blue collar jobs have migrated outside the U.S. due to inflated labor costs relative to value produced. It has dick all to do with what a living wage is or isn't, and *absolutely everything* to do with value produced per unit labor cost. Most U.S. auto manufacturing that still exists in the U.S. at all is in non-union states, in non-union shops.

As Steve Jobs said, "Those jobs are gone, and they're not coming back". Near the end, before they sold it to Canon, the NeXT factory producing laser printers required exactly two (2) full time workers to operate the entire factory.

Re:FLYOVER

[Anonymous Coward]

What, you mean people living in the desert want a lawn full of grass? How about.... don't live in the fucking desert then?

Re:FLYOVER

[cheesybagel]

Can't put concrete over it?

Re:FLYOVER

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't even live in Detroit, let alone Michigan, but some of the claims being made in this thread are absurd.

You mean like claiming San Francisco's rent is twice as much as it actually is? No one I know in S.F. is paying anywhere near $2000 for shared housing.

Re:FLYOVER

[mschuyler]

Homeowners' Associations are like little Nazi dictatorships enforcing a bland conformity on everyone. "Think of my neighbors"? How about they worry about their own shit instead of the color of my deck railing?

Re:FLYOVER

[jtroy92]

I find it odd that you would bring up pets.com from 14 years ago. Is there no better example of the waning importance of Silicon Valley?

This just underscores my point of how folks have been incorrectly predicting the decline and fall of SV for a long time now. Going out on a limb, IMHO, a lot of this is rooted in a desire to see SV taken down a notch. In other words, I believe such negative assessments are based more on emotion than any real evidence the bay area is slowing down. The failure of pets.com in 2000 might make for a sensational story, but it's unwise to write off the bay area as "a little bubble", "too confident" or "arrogant". To do so in 2000 would have meant missing out on things like the transformation of Apple, the ascension of Google, the success of startups like Twitter, LinkedIn, Instagram, etc.

I've lived in both Austin as well as SV. Both places are great, but from a tech perspective, IMHO Austin doesn't hold a candle to SV. I just now googled some stats on VC funding in Austin vs SV. In Austin it surged from 81.7 million in Q1 2013 to 213.8 in Q1 2014. Not bad.

http://www.bizjournals.com/aus...

But this compares with 2.2 billion invested in Silicon Valley in Q1 2013 and 4.7 billion in Q1 2014 (or about 1/2 of the world-wide venture capital investments).

http://www.mercurynews.com/bus...

For good measure, I looked up VC stats for the entire state of Texas. In all of 2013, Texas got 1.3 billion. 50% went to Austin startups. This compares with 12.3 billion for Silicon Valley for 2013.

http://www.businessweek.com/ap...

There's a reason VCs choose to invest their money in bay area startups. They believe in the place...its past, present and future...and are willing to bet substantial amounts of money on it.

Re:FLYOVER

[LordKronos]

The reason all but one automotive assembly line has pulled out of Detroit is ...

One? Just one plant? Even if you are just talking about Detroit itself, ignoring the suburbs, there is a GM plant and 2 Chrysler plants in Detroit. But when people talk about Detroit and auto companies, they mean the entire metro detroit area. And in that area, there is:

Ford: (Wayne, Flat Rock)
GM: (Detroit, Orion)
Chrysler: (Detroit x 2, Sterling Heights, Warren)

So that's 8 auto assembly plants in metro Detroit. Yep, just one plant here.

Re:FLYOVER

[Anonymous Coward]

Yesterday I heard it is possible to buy a house with land in Detroit for 1,000USD.

That is very true. Check out some real estate sites like zillow. The city owns many thousands of houses that have been abandoned. Some are good, some aren't. They are in the process of selling them off several hundred at a time to not overly flood the market. They vary from 1 to 2 thousand. It has become very popular to buy several of them at once all in a row, bulldoze all but the best one, fix it up and make a huge urban garden in the city acreage you just made adjacent. It is a win for everyone as the property values increase, a sense of community is developed (dropping crime), and the abandoned houses become usable again.

Re:FLYOVER

[Anonymous Coward]

Slashdot is a forum for engineers, not blue collar workers.

It's in our best interest to support our own jobs by supporting our fellow engineers.
Hondas and BMWs are not engineered in the United States. GM and Ford cars are however.

Re:FLYOVER

[Rakarra]

Replacing a grass lawn with a cactus garden violates the terms of many homeowners' associations.

Guess what? Homeowners' associations will change. Their rules aren't static, unending, never-changing dictates. No, they're capricious dictates and they could be different after the next meeting.

Re:FLYOVER

[Salgat]

Don't forget the Ford stamping plant in Woodhaven.

Re:FLYOVER

[ClayDowling]

Let's not forget Toyota's engineering facility outside of Ann Arbor. I haven't been there, but the vehicles their engineers drive are popular in the local used car market. Trucks with like-new milage but used prices.

Re:FLYOVER

[ClayDowling]

And the GM/Nissan assembly facility in Flint. And the absolutely gigantic number of parts suppliers that feed all of these assembly plants.

Demographics problem

[callmetheraven]

Detroit's population is success-proof, they will find a way to drive away wealth as they always have, perhaps another riot will return them to the poverty they've earned so well.

Re:Demographics problem

[flyingfsck]

Sure, they are success proof, but fortunately they are twice as natural as the rest of the population.

Re:Demographics problem

[i kan reed]

Yeah, it's not like shifting globalized markets can turn one of the places with the best median standards of living into a slum over a couple decades. Yep, it's gotta be "those" people. You know "those ones". They're just incompatible with success.

I don't know if you're racist or anti-union, but either way, your opinions are just biases stated in words.

Re:Demographics problem

[alen]

a lot of car makers can build cars in the USA profitably. even small cars. except GM and Ford

part of the problem is the factories are old and there is no more room to expand. but then you have stupid union rules that say you have to deliver parts to one end of the factory so some guy can move them over to the end where they are needed

Re:Demographics problem

[rogoshen1]

Pretty sure Ford is profitable as of now? (and probably GM as well)

Re:Demographics problem

[i kan reed]

And there's the fact that those companies to a lot of their manufacturing overseas or out of town, and that detroit isn't as appealing a place to build anymore in a bit of a positive feedback loop.

Re:Demographics problem

[cusco]

As they always have? Sorry, but "always" includes a period much longer than the past 20 years. Detroit was the economic powerhouse of the United States for decades until its business leaders caught the 'MBA Disease' and managed their companies into the ground.

Re:Demographics problem

[Anonymous Coward]

As a person who lives and works in the greater metro area of Detroit the assumption that Detroit is not safe is just wrong. Sure there are bad parts of town that you stat away from but that is true in any major city. Don't get me wrong the city of Detroit has a lot of problems that need to be worked out, but its not Mad Max out here either. The cities and counties around Detroit , epsecaly to the north are going quite well due to a job boom in tech from Big 3.

Re:Demographics problem

[Anonymous Coward]

"the factories are old and there is no more room to expand" - from what I saw Detroit is one vast brownfield site - looked like there are 1000 places to build a new factory.

(Don't know about the unions)

Re:Demographics problem

[schnell]

Detroit was the economic powerhouse of the United States for decades until its business leaders caught the 'MBA Disease' and managed their companies into the ground.

I'm not sure exactly what the "MBA disease" is but the rise of professional managers in the '50s and '60s, as exemplified by the rise of Robert McNamara and the "Whiz Kids" at Ford, was actually a very good time for the US auto industry. What killed the US auto industry was a combination of 1.) building crap cars with terrible quality; 2.) not foreseeing the Oil Crisis of the '70s and that customers might actually want small, non-gas guzzler cars; and most importantly 3.) a dysfunctional relationship between management and unions that resulted in an outrageous, unsustainable cost structure. Management didn't have the courage to make necessary big cost structure changes, and they kept kicking the can down the road by promising huge pension and benefit increases that wouldn't have to be paid for until they had the retired and the next sucker got stuck with it. Wash, rinse, repeat. There was ample evidence that cars could be built well and profitably in the US, as the NUMMI joint venture between Toyota and GM proved, but doing so required big changes from both management and unions and neither were willing to budge from the system that had kept them fat and happy for decades.

It all nearly fell apart in the '90s (the rise of SUVs was all that saved Detroit back then) and then finally in '08. But the system had been rotting for decades and all it took was the right push to send it collapsing into a heap. If you're interested in what went wrong with the US auto industry and why, I highly recommend Crash Course by Paul Ingrassia. The This American Life episode on NUMMI is also brilliant and well worth a listen.

Re:Demographics problem

[cusco]

Starting in the late '60s to early '70s US companies started hiring MBAs straight out of college into management positions regardless of experience in their field of business. The tradition of moving up within a company/industry, gradually acquiring experience and competency, culminating in a CEO position, rather suddenly went out the window. Henry Ford made Edsel work on the assembly line for a year before he let him into management. Today most of the people running the Big Three automakers have never done an actual day's work in their lives, having gone straight from college into management, and those who have experience actually making something have to hide that fact from their peers. I would say the same thing about most of the rest of the US business community, for example the last person in the executive suites at Target who had actually worked on the sales floor at some point just retired a couple of years ago. No one who runs the world's second-largest retailer has actually worked in one of their stores.

Re:Demographics problem

[Anonymous Coward]

received $320 million of your tax dollars in a separate bailout. Now Obama's going to dish out another $100M. As the Detroit Free Press reported, the money's coming from a secret $7.6-billion slush fund the Obama Administration established called the the Hardest Hit Fund. They will make Detroit's public employee unions whole and ready for election season.

Re:Demographics problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry. "Shifting globalized markets" had nothing to do with Detroit becoming a shithole. It all has to do with the human vermin who infest the place and crooks in elected positions.

Query

[MAXOMENOS]

If true, this is great for Detroit. That said, what the heck is the "natural average" of job growth?

Re:Query

[MozeeToby]

This article feels like all those ads you see at the bottom of news stories that are disguised to look like related news. They all talk about how great things are in Detroit and how cheap the land and buildings are and how the economy is "booming". Is it sad that Slashdot has fallen so far that my suspicion meter is starting to move when I see articles like this?

Re:Query

[bobbied]

That said, what the heck is the "natural average" of job growth?

It's a number ploy by a marketing firm... Detroit is showing the best *improvement* in jobs... Which really means last year they created 10 jobs, this year it's 20, for a 100% improvement.. Nobody else comes close....

Trust me, you DON'T want to live anywhere near there..

I'd buy that for a dollar!

[Thud457]

I heard that they gave Omni Consumer Products^W^W^W Google to clean up the town. They're doing something with drones.

Re:I'd buy that for a dollar!

[rsilvergun]

I've got some concerns over the 209 model...

Re:I'd buy that for a dollar!

[SeaFox]

I heard that they gave Omni Consumer Products^W^W^W Google to clean up the town. They're doing something with drones.

That's not Google. It's rival drug factions.

do they have a progressive view?

[TheGratefulNet]

in that area of the country? it does not seem so, to me. seems more like deep red states, more or less. not exactly what tech people flock to, to be honest.

weather is a huge turn-off. culture of progress and new ideas is not there.

crime and corruption IS there. well, the ceo's will like it, at least; but the rest of us, not so much..

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Stickerboy]

in that area of the country? it does not seem so, to me. seems more like deep red states, more or less. not exactly what tech people flock to, to be honest.

Yes, because conservative views have turned the tech industry off from flocking to Texas for jobs. There's a sarcasm tag embedded there.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[TheGratefulNet]

I would die first before moving to texas. most of my friend also feel the same.

in all my life, I have never heard anyone EXCITED about moving to texas, at least for tech. sure, there is tech there but only for those that can stomach the texas lifestyle and redneck attitudes.

the outright racism and bible-belt feel just is not compatible with many techies' view of what a good living area should offer.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[CanHasDIY]

I would die first before moving to texas. most of my friend also feel the same.

... and since the worldview of you and your friends equals 100% of tech employees... /sarc

the outright racism and bible-belt feel just is not compatible with many techies' view of what a good living area should offer.

Never actually been to the "bible-belt," have you? It shows in your bigotry against those of us who actually live here, the irony of which is not lost on me.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[B33rNinj4]

Agreed. I'm from Michigan, and still visit on a semi-regular basis. There are a few pockets of independent thought, but the state is still too focused on that union mentality. I just can't see a successful tech culture developing there. Plus the weather really sucks.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Anonymous Coward]

The cities are full of so called 'progressives'. That's also where most of the poverty & crime come from in these states.. What a coincidence!

Thank God for the out lying areas which are mainly conservative.

I can say Ohio has it's fair share of Tech jobs too - if you aren't afraid of cold.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[LWATCDR]

Culture fallows people and remember that the VOTERS in CA passed the law making same sex marriage illegal. A judge decided it was "unconstitutional" and the supreme court just didn't take the case. I am betting the odds are about 80% that Utah and Oklahoma will win their cases and then the ruling in California will be overturned as well.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[TechyImmigrant]

The tech in Texas is centered on Austin. The techies in Texas gravitate to the most progressive parts of Texas.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Glith]

I've spent about half of my life in Texas. I've lived in Houston, Dallas, and Austin. I've also lived in Silicon Valley, Seattle, and Southern California.

Every conversation about living in Texas I've had with a West Coaster:
"How can you stand living in Texas. Everyone is so bigoted and prejudicial?"
"Oh really, have you ever been there?"
"No."
"..."

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Intrepid imaginaut]

Ah, you appear to be confusing "people interested in high tech" with "fanatical zealots of a dualistic ideology". One of these is actually progressive, the other is not.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[alen]

it's not the bigotry, its the fact they have no zoning laws and some megacorp can build a fertilizer plant next to residential housing and kill people when it explodes
or build some oil refinery next to someone's home and poison their air and water

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Aeonym]

Saying that Texas is full of rednecks is just as accurate as saying that California is full of Mexicans.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Zordak]

in that area of the country? it does not seem so, to me. seems more like deep red states, more or less.

Detroit? Deep Red? Detroit has not had a Republican mayor in 50 years. Detroit is your liberal, socialist utopia. Liberals should be flocking there to bask in their success.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[bobbied]

I would die first before moving to texas. most of my friend also feel the same.

You obviously haven't actually BEEN in Texas have you? There are parts of Texas I wouldn't give you a plug nickle for, but the techie parts of it are nice places to live. Dallas, Austin, Huston (less so) are great places to live. I've lived in Austin and Dallas and where both are unique, both are good places to live.

in all my life, I have never heard anyone EXCITED about moving to texas, at least for tech. sure, there is tech there but only for those that can stomach the texas lifestyle and redneck attitudes.

Yea, you've definitely NOT been here... Austin is ANYTHING but redneck in it's attitude. Dallas is a bit "cowboy" but that's NOT redneck either. Your preconceived notions about Texas are totally wrong. I got moved by my job, out of Texas, and I couldn't wait to get back. So you've now you have heard from somebody who was grateful to get transferred to Texas.

the outright racism and bible-belt feel just is not compatible with many techies' view of what a good living area should offer.

Again, you are so wrong. So very wrong... Texas is the most integrated culture I've lived in, if you measure it by looking at the diversity at various income levels. Yea, there are the poor, but your charge of racism is totally baseless, at least in the urban areas I've lived in. (cannot speak for what goes on out in the poorer country areas)

I would bet that Austin would come as a huge surprise to you. They may ware cowboy boots and hats, but don't let their looks fool you. It's obviously NOT what you think it is. I suggest you not knock it until you've tried it... But if you really have that bad of an attitude about Texas, go ahead and die so you won't have to risk moving here and ruining the place with your attitudes.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Anonymous Coward]

in that area of the country? it does not seem so, to me. seems more like deep red states, more or less. not exactly what tech people flock to, to be honest.

weather is a huge turn-off. culture of progress and new ideas is not there.

crime and corruption IS there. well, the ceo's will like it, at least; but the rest of us, not so much..

What the hell is a "culture of progress"? Statist-driven wealth redistribution? Subjugation of free speech to the will of an obnoxious minority? Replacement of academic freedom with "social justice"? Creating "white Hispanic" when it turns out the villain isn't white enough?

Given what I see from self-proclaimed "progressives", openness to new ideas is definitely one thing it's not a culture of. Look at the response "progressives" have to school vouchers. "Progressive" seems more like reactionary celebration of ideas spouted by Fidel Castro's executioner.

Never forget - Detroit was run into the ground by "progressives".

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[cold fjord]

The "progressive" techies in Texas gravitate to the most "progressive" parts of Texas.

FTFY

How the Dallas-Fort Worth Tech Sector Has Roared Back

The Dallas-Fort Worth area is one of the most significant high-tech business centers in the United States, with several global leadership brands. With about 3,000 technology companies and nearly 230,000 high-tech employees, DFW is arguably the second-largest technology business center in the country, behind California’s Silicon Valley.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah if you ignore Dallas.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Anonymous Coward]

it's not the bigotry, its the fact they have no zoning laws and some megacorp can build a fertilizer plant next to residential housing and kill people when it explodes
or build some oil refinery next to someone's home and poison their air and water

[Citation Needed]

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Ol Olsoc]

"Oh really, have you ever been there?" "No."

Pretty specious stuff there Sparky. I've never been shot, but I know darn well it's going to hurt.

The problem is, Texas has been electing politicians that while they apparently are exactly what Texas thinks is good, look to the rest of the non-red country as not so hot.

There seems to be a popular movement in Texas to not even be Americans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T...

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Ol Olsoc]

The cities are full of so called 'progressives'. That's also where most of the poverty & crime come from in these states.. What a coincidence!

I wonder if that has anything to do with being where most of the people are to begin with.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[TechyImmigrant]

I no more want to live in Dallas than I do Detroit.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Zordak]

I would die first before moving to texas. most of my friend also feel the same.

That's fine with us. We'd just as soon you not come.

the outright racism and bible-belt feel just is not compatible with many techies' view of what a good living area should offer.

I like how you gobble up tropes fed to you by your Democratic overlords, and then accuse others of bigotry. It's cute.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[cold fjord]

I would die first before moving to texas. most of my friend also feel the same.

That would certainly cut down on your living expenses, and I think most Texans would appreciate the gesture.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[cold fjord]

I would have to credit that as yet another of Dallas' charms.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Anonymous Coward]

Never forget - Detroit was run into the ground by "a major shift in the economy".

Same thing can happen in any city controlled by either Progressives or Conservatives. There is no way to downsize a city when your major industries leave.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[k8to]

I have been there. It is.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Rich0]

crime and corruption IS there. well, the ceo's will like it, at least; but the rest of us, not so much..

CEOs are drawn to the kind of crime you find on Wall Street, not the kind of crime you find in most of Detroit.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Anonymous Coward]

I would die first before moving to texas. most of my friend also feel the same.

in all my life, I have never heard anyone EXCITED about moving to texas, at least for tech. sure, there is tech there but only for those that can stomach the texas lifestyle and redneck attitudes.

the outright racism and bible-belt feel just is not compatible with many techies' view of what a good living area should offer.

I would die to move there :-P.
Open space like at home, friendly people, good food and as a bonus (after Chicago and San Francisco, Baltimore) decent place for IPSC shooter. :-)
Where is the problem? I am living in wrong country to get H1B. But I am visiting as often as I can.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Redmancometh]

Youve obviously never heard of or been to Austin texas...or Houston..or Dallas. Austin is just a sliightly less laid back san fran with less male nudity.

Oh hey its also in the black with lower taxes and cost of living while California is in the red.

Yes there are conservatives, but most have moderate views which lean towards conservative. There are a few die-hard right wingers and bible thumpers but its rare and becoming rarer. Thats more of a midwest thing.

Outright racism is extremely rare. Far more so than say New York.

Tenn and Texas have the best bbq in the world, and Texans are extremely friendly as long as you stay out of Dallas.

My main complaint since arriving is the horrible awful weather here in Houston. 40 something days over 100F in a row a couple years back. Also snowing in Dallas in April...and hailing in July.

-Gcode/C#/CPP Dev

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[plopez]

I've flat out told recruiters I will not move south of the Mason-Dixon line. At least as far west as Texas. And don't get me started on Texas. My dad left there as soon as he could and I have no desire to return.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Anonymous Coward]

[citation] [citation] [citation] [citation] Why do the Canadians want to build a $7 billion pipeline instead of refining tar sand in Canada? Because refining tar sand is one of the filthiest processes on the planet. There are no regulations in Texas so spending $7 billion on a pipeline is the most profitable method of dealing with the fallout.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Richy_T]

Hey, Tennessee here... Do you think you could stop sucking up all the technology workers? We're experiencing a bit of a tech boom here and need some ourselves.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Richy_T]

I suspect you have your causality reversed.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Richy_T]

Hey, and some of my best friends are black...

You need some introspection there...

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

Until they stop voting for crazy pants in state office, I don't want to live in Texas.

Being queer in Austin still means being queer in texas. Something I just don't want to worry about or deal with.

Nevada's becoming way more queer friendly, and has all of the open sky goodness of Texas. Plus hookers and blackjack.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[bobbied]

it's not the bigotry, its the fact they have no zoning laws and some megacorp can build a fertilizer plant next to residential housing and kill people when it explodes or build some oil refinery next to someone's home and poison their air and water

Shesh... How uninformed can YOU be? Care to source your critique of Texas or is this just an uninformed opinion by somebody who doesn't know better?

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow so the middle age white guy doesn't think he's bigoted and prejudice? Never heard that one before! Lemme know how it is with all those other white middle age men. Fuckin scum bags.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Richy_T]

Difference is, "progressives" are more likely to have made long-term spending commitments which drive the economy into the ground when things aren't so good.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Jahoda]

How you get moderated "insightful" for such nonsense is beyond me. Detroit's problems are rooted in race and the class system that existed there long before it became a republican talking point to blame Detroit's problems caused by "socialist liberalism". I like to think this is the kind of place such a black and white view of the world gets buried where it belongs.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Anonymous Coward]

Citation Needed

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[k8to]

Of course if you're comparing to southern California, I've encountered a sufficient amount of racism re: Mexicans there for one lifetime.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[cold fjord]

it's not the bigotry, its the fact they have no zoning laws and some megacorp can build a fertilizer plant next to residential housing and kill people when it explodes
or build some oil refinery next to someone's home and poison their air and water

While I'm sure that Texas has totally managed to avoid the scourge of zoning laws, the California approach has its own drawbacks that are becoming apparent, especially as California is now practically speaking a one party state run by Democrats with super majorities able to pass whatever they want.

California: CEOs Rate It Worst U.S. Business Climate For 8 Years Running
Hundreds of Thousands Flee Democrat-Run California
Just How Bad is California’s Business Climate?
California, a bad bet for business - Why would new enterprises come to a state like this?
Texas v. California: The Real Facts Behind The Lone Star State's Miracle
State leaders closely watch migrating millionaires

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Richy_T]

Uh, sure. Please send $50 to the following address...

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Jahoda]

I know that this will blow your closed mind, but the gay communities in Houston and Dallas are some of the most vibrant in the country. They have been for many decades now. Now if you want to talk about Texas's views on the poor, that is a different discussion we can have.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Anonymous Coward]

The only two redeeming attribute of Texas is the Q and the housing prices.

Generally, the weather stinks (Houston is a swamp, Dallas/FtW is storm central, and Austin/SanAntonio are way to hot in the summer). As for the integrated culture in Texas. There are some parts of Austin that are integrated, but Dallas and Houston are quite segragated church enclave cities. The only real integration is by income level.

There's nothing wrong with rednecks (I'm chinese and some of my best friends are rednecks), it's the snooty white-bread Dallas elitism that does it in for me...

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[dublin]

I would die first before moving to texas. most of my friend also feel the same.

in all my life, I have never heard anyone EXCITED about moving to texas, at least for tech. sure, there is tech there but only for those that can stomach the texas lifestyle and redneck attitudes.

the outright racism and bible-belt feel just is not compatible with many techies' view of what a good living area should offer.

Wow, I'd say that post pretty much serves as a prime example of how to beclown oneself while simultaneously establishing oneself as a bigot of the first degree!

There's a reason that 3 of the top 10 cities of the US are in Texas today, and Austin's rising with a bullet, showing staggering 6.6% growth, a substantial portion of which is tech, although way too much of that is the social/mobile bubble. (Austin is #11 today, Detroit is 18, FWIW...) Yeah, pretty tolerable weather, awesome food and music, really nice people (yep, even "bible-belt rednecks"), a great tech scene w/o the backstabbing attitude, entrepreneurial dynamism and focus on results, Formula 1/SxSW/ACL - why would anyone even consider working here? If there's a weak spot in Texas, BTW, it's Austin, mostly because of its "progressive" dedication to regulating the crap out of everything they can. (Don't get me started about permits here - smart people start or move their companies nearby, not in, Austin...)

Oh, and a friend of mine from Detroit (who happens to be black) told me years ago (when he had been in Texas only a few months) that not only was he shocked to find that there were actually far fewer racists in Texas than in Michigan, but that he preferred even those racists because "at least here in Texas and the South, you know when people have a racist bias!" He didn't find that to be true in Detroit, his home town, despite the fact that he came from a fairly well-connected family (his Mom was in the state congress), which insulated him from some of the racial bias in the first place...

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[OhPlz]

Democrats and labor unions have run Detroit for what, six decades? How much longer do they need to fix those "preexisting" issues? Or is it that their ideologies simply don't work?

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Anonymous Coward]

False, the only mayor's Detroit has had for the last few decades were scam artists draining the city dry.

Go back to your tea party talking point meeting and try again.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[k8to]

Communities and prevailing attitudes are pretty different.

And speaking as a gay person, I'm not very interested in the "gay communities". I'm interested in a place that I can live as an openly gay person without having to give a shit about it. Closest in the US to that is the Bay Area, definitely not Texas.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[swillden]

I've spent about half of my life in Texas. I've lived in Houston, Dallas, and Austin. I've also lived in Silicon Valley, Seattle, and Southern California.

Every conversation about living in Texas I've had with a West Coaster: "How can you stand living in Texas. Everyone is so bigoted and prejudicial?" "Oh really, have you ever been there?" "No." "..."

And, of course, they completely miss the irony in their own statements.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Anonymous Coward]

So Texas is only like a third redneck....

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[BobMcD]

Never actually been to the "bible-belt," have you? It shows in your bigotry against those of us who actually live here, the irony of which is not lost on me.

Having moved from the Ozarks to Dallas, I can comfortably say 'bible belt my ass'. DFW is heathen by comparison to the actual bible belt.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why isn't Somalia a glimmering libertarian utopia? How long should we expect to wait for Somalia to put all those silly socialist countries like Sweden and Norway to shame before we admit that they never will and their ideologies simply don't work?

Pro-tip: If the above sounds stupid, it's because you know deep down that there are more variables to success/failure than the type (or absence) of government.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[cold fjord]

I'll be direct: there is nothing wrong with Dallas, it is a fine city. This is about your choice and personal values, not about Dallas.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Anonymous Coward]

Except myself and my girlfriend drove to Texas from Michigan and were surprised how quickly the radio stations switch after leaving Missouri.

Immediately the rap/hip hop stations are nowhere to be found. There's 5 channels with preachers talking about how evil and horrible gays are.... and a lot of crap about how if the gays don't like it, they are being "militant" and should be locked up.

We were amazed since you'd never hear something like that on public radio in Michigan, or Illinois, or Ohio, or Indiana.....

But as soon as you go south on the way to Texas through Oklahoma, holy shit is it INSTANTLY the same environment that is so heavily stereotyped as the bible belt. Gay hating, 10 christian channels with no rap or hip hop station in the whole AM/FM band.

Public signs (big billboards next to the road) saying marriage is 1 man + 1 woman. People at rest stops staring because we clearly looked different.... one man said we stood out as "wealthy northerners".

Screw the south. I proposed to my girl in San Antonio at the River Walk but we're not going back for any other reason. Hated that whole state and the ones nearby. Michigan is breath of fresh air compared to those places....

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Oh really, have you ever been there?"

Yes.

I've lived in every one of those places.
Texas is the bottom half of the list by far.
If you have to live in Texas, Austin is the town to live in easily.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Anonymous Coward]

I lived 1/3 of my life in Boston, 1/6 my life in Pittsburgh, 1/6 life in Houston, & 1/3 life in Sillicon Valley. Houston was by far the most predudice, though I hear Austin is much better.

I was never told "Your OK, even though you're an X" from any friends outside those in Texas. Nor was I told to not invite other friends along because they're Xs outside Texas. I'm sure it happens elsewhere, it just never happened to me, besides the time I lived in Texas.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Anonymous Coward]

Part of the problem is the attitude of so many Texans who move to other states. Every state has its own reasons for being a bad place to live; Texans just get defensive about their state.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course. That's why Detroit is a shell of its former self.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Anonymous Coward]

and yet the keep moving there because the coasts "aren't good places for raising children" ie a house with a yard is too damn expensive and the schools really suck.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[cusco]

Nowhere that the temperature regularly exceeds 100 degrees could possibly be considered a "great place to live" IMNSHO. (Which is also a strike against Detroit.) And anywhere that you can stand on the roof of a three story building and see 20 miles in every direction is just plain depressing to contemplate. Give me mountains, give me rain, give me trees, give me frost in winter and warmth in summer. When people actually go stay at a hotel because their air conditioning is broken that should be a sign that the place is inherently unlivable.

OTOH, there are people who for some reason think that Des Moines, Iowa is a wonderful place to live.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem is, California keeps electing politicians that while they apparently are exactly what California thinks is good, look to the rest of the non-blue country as not so hot.

So, it really cuts both ways. The republicans out of texas are no better then the democrats out of california. Neither has any real concern for the working class, blue or white collars (slavery is still the same, is it not), but instead how they can get reelected to continue to get rich while gaining influence and control over how the ordinary citizen goes about their lives.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Anonymous Coward]

On that list Boston is the most racist.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Yunzil]

And what is your response if they say yes?

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[bobbied]

Nowhere that the temperature regularly exceeds 100 degrees could possibly be considered a "great place to live" IMNSHO. (Which is also a strike against Detroit.) And anywhere that you can stand on the roof of a three story building and see 20 miles in every direction is just plain depressing to contemplate. Give me mountains, give me rain, give me trees, give me frost in winter and warmth in summer. When people actually go stay at a hotel because their air conditioning is broken that should be a sign that the place is inherently unlivable.

You have a point, it does get hot in Texas in late summer, but Air Conditioning is everywhere and you get used to it where all but the hottest days are not that bad. We also only get 1 or 2 days of snow in the winter, so there are advantages to being south. I'm pretty sure you'd like the topology in Austin, it's pretty hilly to the west and north of town. Nothing like the Rockies in Colorado, but quite picturesque in places. Dallas? Huston? Yea, it's about as flat as the rest of the Midwest.

OTOH, there are people who for some reason think that Des Moines, Iowa is a wonderful place to live.

I've met people that though Ceder Rapids Iowa was the bomb... It was OK during the hot months of summer, but it was horrible in winter, which seemed to be when I had to go up there the most. Not that Ceder Rapids is some kind of high tech hot spot, only really one employer there that I swear I'll never work for again..

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Anonymous Coward]

/sarc

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Anonymous Coward]

I would die first before moving to texas. most of my friend also feel the same.

Which part of your friend is disagreeing? Is it the legs?

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Anonymous Coward]

Citation Needed

Greece.

Oh, and Detroit.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Anonymous Coward]

Never actually been to the "bible-belt," have you? It shows in your bigotry against those of us who actually live here, the irony of which is not lost on me.

Hey smart boy : I live in the "bible belt". North Carolina is where I live now, though I won't be
here much longer.

The "bible belt" is a miserable place to live if you are intelligent and have any sort of non-fascist non-Fox News
non-ultra conservative sensibility.

The bible belt is chock full of ignorant hateful people. And nothing you can say will change that
reality. You can believe what you like, but if you try to claim that the 'bible belt" is a great place for
smart enlightened people to live, you will only prove you are both seriously biased and extremely
ignorant of your environment. I've read enough of your other posts to already be well aware that
you aren't the sharpest tool in the box, so don't even bother trying to rebut me, because I don't
engage in debate with idiots like you.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Anonymous Coward]

The fertilizer plant in West, Texas was built BEFORE the development around it. It was very successful and brought people to the town. The residential housing and schools were built around the fertilizer plant, not the other way around.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Anonymous Coward]

The tech in Texas is centered on Austin. The techies in Texas gravitate to the most progressive parts of Texas.

Not to mention demographically Texas is projected to become a political swing State in the future. I'm from Texas and it certainly does have a large strain of Bush type "my way or the highway" conservatives, but that isn't an accurate reflection of Texas politically or demographically. Texas is extremely culturally diverse with large German, Spanish, French, and Mexican influence.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[anagama]

You aren't giving Texans a good name with the "tropes fed to you by your Democratic overlords" bit. Real liberals recognize that the DNC is nothing but the New GOP, and you falling into the party-labeling thing, suggests you haven't made that connection and still think of the Old GOP (i.e., parody of itself) as a conservative party or something or other. If you are representative of Texans, it demonstrates a kind of political illiteracy.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[careysub]

The fertilizer plant in West, Texas was built BEFORE the development around it. It was very successful and brought people to the town. The residential housing and schools were built around the fertilizer plant, not the other way around.

Homes and schools being built in an industrial area where large amounts of explosive petrochemicals were stored and handled. Really? I take it that the fact that this confirms the absence of sane zoning laws is completely lost on you.

The West Intermediate (Middle school) was just 1000 feet from the plant. I guess those school kids had it coming...

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[operagost]

its the fact they have no zoning laws

Slashdot, why is this modded insightful? Really-- why? HOUSTON is notable for having no zoning laws. Apparently, the town of West doesn't either, because it appears to be the town with the exploding fertilizer plant that alen is referring to. Zoning is not generally the duty of the state, but of the local governments. Do you really want the state telling you how your town must be laid out? Why do you, as a citizen, want some bureaucrats far away making blind decisions instead of being able to go to a town meeting and actually influence the decisions?

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[suutar]

totally OT but I love your sig :)

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[anagama]

The Democrat label means nothing. If Nixon was running in an election today, they'd have to put him on the ticket with the greens or something. Even Obamacare is basically Nixon's health care plan with the liberal parts eliminated. These Democrat and Republican labels have become so meaningless, they should just change their names to Blue Team and Red Team. It's much more accurate to say that GOP ideology, as put in practice by DNC candidates, is the poison in the system.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[operagost]

Maybe you should stop expecting people to congratulate you for being gay.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Tenn and Texas have the best bbq in the world" - couldn't you have just praised vi over emacs if you wanted to start a flame war? NC, SC, Kansas City, St Louis, and a few others will all have a few bones to pick with you.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[operagost]

I would expect that 50 years of one-party rule would show progress. No, clearly it is getting worse every day. So how many decades before you think it will get better? Maybe another 50 will do it? If what we're doing isn't working, just try more of it?

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[volmtech]

My nephew recently received his electrical engineering degree. He found a position with a gas line company (high five figure salary to start) and will be working in Austin. He grew up in a mobile home in Florida, his sister's wedding was held in a horse pasture and the entire wedding party wore cowboy boots. He wont feel out of place.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[careysub]

How can I take your bet? Since we are proposing the odds are 4-1 in your favor, how about I take you up at only 2-1 (heck I would even do even money)? Name your stakes.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Anonymous Coward]

it's not the bigotry, its the fact they have no zoning laws and some megacorp can build a fertilizer plant next to residential housing and kill people when it explodes
or build some oil refinery next to someone's home and poison their air and water

Shesh... How uninformed can YOU be? Care to source your critique of Texas or is this just an uninformed opinion by somebody who doesn't know better?

http://www.govexec.com/defense/2014/04/cause-deadly-texas-fertilizer-plant-explosion-remains-mystery/82789/?oref=dropdown

Really? Are you that stupid?

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Anonymous Coward]

How uninformed can YOU be? Care to source your critique of Texas

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2013/04/live-updates-west-texas-fertilizer-plant-explosion-injures-more-than-100/

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[CanHasDIY]

Never actually been to the "bible-belt," have you? It shows in your bigotry against those of us who actually live here, the irony of which is not lost on me.

Having moved from the Ozarks to Dallas, I can comfortably say 'bible belt my ass'. DFW is heathen by comparison to the actual bible belt.

I've lived on the Ozark Plateau my entire life, and while I know why it's considered part of the Bible Belt (lotta churches around here), I've found that it's not the cesspool of hatred and bigotry that people who have never been here claim it is. Yea, there's some bigotry, but most people tend to keep it to themselves, and in 30 years I've never, ever seen a minority person mistreated because of their race.

The Mennonites who spend every Saturday night downtown, holding a sign that says "Your cell phone is your call to HELL" in one hand and am iPhone in the other are about the worst I've ever seen, and those guys are mostly harmless.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Zordak]

I don't know what you think you're responding to, but that I do not favor Democrats most certainly does not mean I'm a Republican. The GOP is only marginally more conservative than the DNC, and only on some issues. They are all the party of big government and statism, and both parties are rotting from within from graft and corruption. But the trope about Texas being a haven of racist, ignorant rednecks is most certainly a Democrat thing that the OP obviously bought. (It's amusing to watch, considering how intensely racists so many Democrats are.) It's bad enough to have to deal with Rick Perry-style crony Republicanism here in Texas. A bunchy of left-wing Democrats who want even bigger government would only make things worse, so the OP is free to stay wherever he is. He won't be missed.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[CanHasDIY]

in 30 years I've never, ever seen a minority person mistreated because of their race.

Slight Correction: I've never seen them mistreated by any other ordinary citizen. The legal system, however... But I'm pretty sure that's a problem no matter where you hail from.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[s.petry]

And then there is reality! Having driven from Michigan to Texas numerous times, living in Texas for 4 years I found plenty of Rock, Hip/Hop, Rap, and yes lots of "Country" music stations.

If you switched to AM radio for some dumb ass reason when crossing into a different state that's your own damn fault! I can find Christian stations both AM and FM in Detroit just as easy as search for them down "South". Plenty of music stations no matter where in the country I have been.

Claiming Michigan is some blessed region of non-biased people is laughable. If you are white simply drive anywhere in or near Detroit, Flint or Pontiac with your windows open so people can see you. Hell, the majority of Wayne county is not very safe for "Whitey". If you are black, head to Grosse Pointe and wave at a nice police officer who will beat you bloody for being in the wrong city, before hauling your ass to jail. For that matter, head a few counties out of Detroit and see how you are treated. Mackinac Island is a great place to be if you are black too, no really! Livonia is a self proclaimed "Whitest City in America".

No wonder you post anonymously, it takes a certain kind of coward to make up that much bullshit!

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Ziest]

A friend of mine once worked for a company in San Jose, CA. that the owners decided to move to Austin. More than 60% of the company quit rather than live in G*D forsaken Texas. As much as people jump up and down about how much better the tech industry and the living standard is in Texas the fact is that it is damn near impossible to get tech workers to leave California for Texas.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[guanxi]

It may seem to fit that partisan narrative, but you don't really know Detroit politics. The Big Three run Detroit, in any meaningful sense. The economy of the city is completely dependent on them, and as auto company jobs have declined since the 1950s, so has Detroit. GM just went bankrupt and Chrysler nearly did; it's hard to blame that on local Detroit politics.

Race problems have been huge. Much of the city's talent was effectively barred from eduction, productive employment, or decent housing for a long time. The riots in 1967 did not come from a vacuum, but from decades of oppression by the white population. You probably haven't read about the riots that would happen when a black person dared to move into a white neighborhood. George Wallace (former Alabama governor and ardent segregationist) won the 1968 Democratic primary in the city!

If you really want to understand Detroit and urban politics, and the role of race, read this history (which won the Bancroft Prize, among others):

The Origins of the Urban Crisis by Thomas Sugrue

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Anonymous Coward]

The complaint that it's just too damn hot, however, is totally legitimate.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Ziest]

The problem with Austin is that it is surrounded by Texas and is at the mercy of the state legislator which, as the late great Molly Ivins would tell you, is one of the most stupid and reactionary in this country. Austin may be groovy and progressive but once you leave the corporate bounds of Austin you are in Texas, set your watch back 150 years.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Prien715]

I'm guessing you're white?

I lived in Houston for 8 years. And Texas is indeed rascist -- not even Anise Parker has the power to change Rick Perry's laws. Look at imprisonment statistics, the capitol case involving a man sentences to death who didn't kill anybody (...but the law of parties is wonderful!) or the black man dragged behind the back of a pickup (which was in Weider [sic] IIRC).

You can say "I didn't see any bigotry". The KKK guy who slaughtered Jewish folk inside a synagogue was "Nice to other white people" according to its mayor.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Anonymous Coward]

My little brother (we are from Dallas) works for a major movie studio in L.A. doing CG SFX. They moved his division to Vancouver for the superior business climate, and 60% of the employees refused to go, even though they'd get a bigger paycheck and a more secure future with the company. Little Brother went, and now he's the youngest 'Lead' in the division, and loves it there. He misses the exciting thunderstorms here though.

I think you are drawing the wrong conclusions about tech workers. And Texas.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, and look at how uncontested Democrats and their non-functioning ideologies turned San Francisco, Portland, Seattle, Austin and DC into places where nobody is making money and everyone is trying flee. But I'm sure you can think of many examples of Republican-run cities that are just awesome places to live. Right?

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Attila Dimedici]

If I was moving a company out of California, I would be happy to lose any employees who were not jumping at the chance to move out of California with me because I would be able to replace most of them with better workers wherever I was moving the company to.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[LWATCDR]

Funny thing is that people think that I am saying that outcome would be a good thing.
The simple truth is that the Supreme court ruled that marriage is in the hands of the state voters already when it overturned the defense of marriage act. The judges are exceedingly unlikely to change that ruling because if they do then it will also open up the door that polygamy is protected as well.
If same sex marriage was protected under the constitution then it would have over turned the Protection of marriage act on constitutional grounds.
Think of it more as a prediction of the weather than a desire of the result. It will have to come down to a constitutional amendment.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Richy_T]

Considering the amount Nixon stole when he took the US off the gold standard, that would probably be fair.

What your proposition misses is the success stories where fiscally conservative policies have been put in place by parties of either side.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Anonymous Coward]

I grew up in the Bible Belt, was there for nearly 20 years, and it really "is" an intelligence draining hellhole. You will not get anywhere unless you join a prominent Southern Baptist church and join that social network wholeheartedly. You will work twice as hard for less pay if you're not a white male. You will shut up about political corruption, or else you'll be found in a swamp dead.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ann Arbor is MUCH more liberal/socialist than Detroit.

What you're trying to say is that it's the blacks. Don't be shy. Just put on your pointy hat and say it.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[madbrain]

You may want to read the Windsor ruling more carefully, it does not say what you stated.

DOMA section was overturned, which means the federal government must recognize same-sex marriages of couples that were married in states or countries that allow it.

Many of the state constitutional bans on same-sex marriage weren't enacted directly by voters, but by the legislatures. The Windsor case says nothing about the voters in each state.

The Supreme Court also let stand a ruling about Prop 8, which found that a state ban on same-sex marriage in California, directly voted on by the California electorate, was unconstitutional.

The 2 rulings are not in contradiction. Both will be used to overturn many of the remaining state constitutional bans on same-sex marriage.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Rakarra]

The problem is, California keeps electing politicians that while they apparently are exactly what California thinks is good, look to the rest of the non-blue country as not so hot.

I dunno, California also gave the country the Republican presidents not named Bush for the last 75 years.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Rakarra]

I wouldn't say hockey houligans are representative of anyone but themselves.

Plus, if you look at the icons of the people sending those tweets, it clear that many were not Bostonians and were fans of other NHL teams. There were only two teams in the playoffs by then, and hockey fans of other teams will still tune in to watch.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Rakarra]

Maybe you should stop expecting people to congratulate you for being gay.

Maybe he's not looking for "congratulations." Not interested in pride parades, gay nightclubs, or any of that nonsense that a minority of gays fall for, but he doesn't want to have people go ape-shit if he casually mentions "his husband" the same way a straight man would reference his wife.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Rakarra]

The weather in Texas was horrible when I went to visit (hot and humid), but that's apparently the norm. When I drove through the pan-handle a year later, it was also not anything worth writing home about, not even in the cities.

I will admit though, the best BBQ I have ever had in my entire life I had in Amarillo, TX. I would go back for that in an instant.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[sillybilly]

The solution to Detroit's problems is what the voices in my head tell me "no Texas in Michigan", and what they really mean by that is "no taxes in Michigan." All you got to do is set the corporate tax rate to something like 0.00005%, or even -0.00000003%, i.e. a rebate) and personal income tax to something like half or quarter of what it is now, and watch the entrepreneurs like chip companies and their employees from around the world flock to Michigan, and fix the state budget through their 7 or 8% sales tax. Unfortunately this is not completely good news to the present population becoming displaced by the "more skilled" and educated attracted by the scent of honey, because they will be displaced, like native americans were displaced, and only later did they reap the benefits of simple things like having a horse, or a gun - there were two sides to being displaced, the positive, and the negative. Unfortunately the chip companies cannot rely on present Michigan workers, because they cannot follow simple instructions to the letter, because in making a chip not a single mistake is allowed in a sequence of thousands of steps, or each mistake is very costly, and the discipline required in a micron filtered dust free environment is tremendous. Only the best military boot camp trained people can function in such an environment, or people from Korea, Japan, or Taiwan, who take their job and follow orders just as seriously without any formal military training. In fact that's one of my biggest deficiencies, not having been through such a bootcamp, and I cannot follow simple instructions either, make mistakes left and right. One possible way for people(about to be displaced if taxes are lowered) to crawl out of the being on welfare desperation without any prospect of a job, is to sign up for private prisons, without commiting a crime, and work as prison laborers, for $1/day, having communal housing and communal dining and bathroom facilities, just like it's done in China with pretty much all labor, which there is nonprison. Such prison situations avoid the minimum wage issues that hinder American competitiveness in the global marketplace, a minimum wage which is by the way unfairly low when you consider the cost of educating 3 kids and paying for gas and mortgage. We're trying to pretend that $900/mo is a fair rent or mortgage in face of $8/hr minimum wage and $3.50/gal gas commute, and food prices dependent on that 4/gal diesel trucking cost. So people could sign up for prison, but be allowed to leave any time they wish if they haven't commited a crime, and in fact it could be used as consideration, crime equity, against some future petty crime, such as shoplifting, but not capital crimes, such as violence. You also cannot raise your kids under such circumstances, so you have to find someone like grandparents, or one of the two parents doing the childraising, while the other works, just like it's done in China, where parents see their kids raised by the grandparents once per year on their yearly 1 week vacation when they can visit their hometown or village hundreds of miles away from their jobs. So the people not doing any child raising or at least one of two such people could get off welfare and pay for their own cheap housing and food this way, keep busy with something like making a broom, and enjoy each other's company. In prison solitary confinement is considered a harsh sentence, and out in the real world a lot of people on welfare are stuck with a very small circle of people in their lives out of necessity, solitary confinement by necessity, but there are some people who prefer solitude even if not necessary. So these people could keep looking for a job while in such a prison, and of course this means they'd be stuck for 30-50 years in this "looking for a job" situation while working as prison slaves, but I had personally much rather be a prison slave than be sitting on welfare, and be chastised by people who don't really understand my situation that I'm lazy and the only reason why I don't have a job is because I'm lazy and

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

Being queer in Texas also means no gay marriage, which I have in New York, nor do I expect it soon.

Texas also made sodomy illegal until 2003, and that's only because the courts said banning gay sex was illegal.

So I think you misunderstood me.

Austin does have a vibrant gay community, but, while Rick "Secessionist" Perry is in office, gay laws and the treatment of gay people makes it inhospitable to me.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[shutdown -p now]

No matter how you twist it, something like 80% of techies are solidly liberal/progressive, judging by their political donations.

Last I checked, Texas was neither liberal nor progressive in practically any sense of the word.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Anonymous Coward]

I've lived in California all my life, & my friends from Texas are some of the kindest, warmest, most right-headed people I've ever met! When I went down that way to visit, I confirmed this was not simply a few god apples I happened to run across; nearly everyone I interacted with was very easy-going & friendly. In fact, I get far more negative attitude from folks here in the SF Bay Area.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[metrix007]

It's a place where the majority are fine with the death penalty and banning evolution. That says it all, despite what gems are hidden in the shit.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[evilviper]

Yes, because conservative views have turned the tech industry off from flocking to Texas for jobs. There's a sarcasm tag embedded there.

Texas is a purple state, projected to go Blue in a few more years. Texas leans a little bit to the right, but California doesn't lean very heavily left, itself.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Ol Olsoc]

Hey, and some of my best friends are black...

You need some introspection there...

Doing that right now, because your comment is a non sequitar to me.

Declaring that all People from Texas are Tea Party Republicans who want to secede from the USA is incorrect. But for crying out loud, Texans elected Rick Perry, George Bush, and Ted Cruz.

They are the people that a majority of Texans who voted, wanted in office, and they are the face oft he state.

Or are you saying that Texans elect people who's views they don't like?

Perhaps introspection on my part is not the only introspection needed.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[bobbied]

.... banning evolution. That says it all ....

Exaggerate much? This kind of thing says something about you.

I don't know of Texas banning evolution. Care to provide a citation on that? No?

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Richy_T]

My point is, your justifications do not negate your unfounded prejudices. Every bigot has a rationalization.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Ol Olsoc]

You do not know me, and yet you call me a bigot. I therfore call you a bigot. Only because you are exactly that - a bigot.

Stupid argument, and your quickness to accuse tells me more about you than you know about me. But it does show that you use one attack vector of bigots, which is to hurry up and accuse the other person of bigotry. Just like when a person says, "I would never lie tyo you, the next words coming out of their moths are likely lies.

That's okay - some of my best friends are bigots.

Re:do they have a progressive view?

[Richy_T]

Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

As someone who has traveled around the world a bit and who is an outsider living in the southern US, it frequently astounds me the prejudicial attitude of those from elsewhere who consider themselves enlightened and because it's not against blacks, homosexuals or women, they don't give it a second thought. Open your mind, maybe see a little of the world. You'll likely be surprised to find out it's not like you think and you'll find a lot of smart, educated people who just happen to have a different perspective from yourself but share many of the same values.

Wanted

[slapout]

Wanted: People who are smart enough to work in tech, but dumb enough to live in an unsafe place.

Re:Wanted

[Anonymous Coward]

Agreed - if this is what you want, you might as work government IT contract jobs in Afghanistan. Pay is 3x and no taxes. Plus you can legally tote your M16 around with you there.

Re:Wanted

[wile_e8]

Note that this article is about "metro Detroit", not "Detroit". Plenty of safe places to live in the Detroit metro area, especially on a tech worker salary, they're just outside the city proper. And even if the jobs were in actual Detroit, it's still possible to commute from outside the city. But whatever, it's an article mentioning Detroit, let's just bash Detroit.

Re:Wanted

[Anonymous Coward]

" an unsafe place" like SF? have you been outside there after dark? it's like a dystopian wasteland.

Re:Wanted

[Anonymous Coward]

Except on base, because you know, that would be unsafe.

Re:Wanted

[TechyImmigrant]

>" an unsafe place" like SF? have you been outside there after dark?

I have. Many times. It was quite nice. They have lots of lighting so residents and visitors alike can get around despite it being night time. I wasn't mugged, except by the Hotel bill.

Re:Wanted

[Anonymous Coward]

>" an unsafe place" like SF? have you been outside there after dark?

I have. Many times. It was quite nice. They have lots of lighting so residents and visitors alike can get around despite it being night time. I wasn't mugged, except by the Hotel bill.

http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/ca/san-francisco/crime/

Crime index: 6 (100 is best) - 7.16 violent crimes per 1000 residents

Not terribly impressive. Is Detroit worse (yes, rated 2, 3 times the crime rate), but I don't see one as being able to crap on the other much. They both suck. But look at the suburbs around Detroit. Most of the ones where people with good jobs choose to live (and where most of the good jobs are anyway) are very comparable to the good neighborhoods around SF.

Re:Wanted

[Anonymous Coward]

commuting blows, and the "surrounding metro areas" do NOT have the lower rent, the city has the reduced rent.

Took me about an hour to commute the 25 miles from Troy (each way). Rent is cheap below 8-mile, but that's where you stop seeing streetlights too.

Re:Wanted

[msauve]

That's like saying the valley can't attract tech workers because of Oakland (well, except that Detroit actually has less crime than Oakland).

Re:Wanted

[Ol Olsoc]

Wanted: People who are smart enough to work in tech, but dumb enough to live in an unsafe place.

Yeah. http://www.theverge.com/2013/1...

You want a nice safe place like SanFrancisco And people who can't stand a little cold might be upset to know it isn't really all that warm either.

Re:Wanted

[wile_e8]

The surrounding metro areas may not have the dirt cheap rent like the city, but it is still going to be *much* cheaper than places like San Francisco. And if don't want an hour commute into the city, try living some place closer to the city than Troy.

Re:Wanted

[bobbied]

Detroit actually has less crime than Oakland.

Because NOBODY lives there who has the option to move so there is nobody to have a crime committed on, except during the day when...

OR is it because the last real police officer they had in Detroit was named Axel Foley so there is nobody there to report crimes to, much less investigate them?

Re:Wanted

[Anonymous Coward]

Except Troy Michigan is one of the safest cities in the whole state and it's nearly within 30 minutes of Detroit.

It's next to Birmingham which is also one of the wealthiest cities per capita in the whole country. Porsche dealers everywhere.

Re:Wanted

[sjbe]

Wanted: People who are smart enough to work in tech, but dumb enough to live in an unsafe place.

Wanted: People who are smart enough to work in tech AND smart enough to actually get facts before making stupid public statements.

Seriously, few people actually live in Detroit City and that isn't where most of the jobs are - most live outside and it's perfectly safe most places. I'm pretty sure there are neighborhoods in San Francisco and Boston and Austin that the tech workers avoid. No different in Detroit.

Re:Wanted

[msauve]

Crime rate per capita. Your objection is moot.

Re:Wanted

[cascadingstylesheet]

Wanted: People who are smart enough to work in tech, but dumb enough to live in an unsafe place.

They aren't actually going to live in Detroit, silly. They live in the suburbs.

Re:Wanted

[Rakarra]

And people who can't stand a little cold might be upset to know it isn't really all that warm either.

"The coldest winter I ever experienced was a summer in San Francisco."

Well, it's not that bad. But it rarely goes above or below the 50s.

Nothing new - Always had tech jobs

[sjbe]

Over the past few years, the growth rate in Detroit tech jobs has been twice the natural average.

It's not just growth. Detroit has had lots of tech jobs for decades. It's been in the top 5 markets for many types of tech jobs for a long time. There is an ENORMOUS amount of technology that goes into automobile manufacturing. Robotics, CAD, industrial automation, materials science, welding, forming, coatings, chemicals, software and more. There are very few places in the USA with a higher density of engineering talent and opportunity.

Oh and before someone makes yet another ill informed remark about Detroit City, don't confuse Metro Detroit with Detroit City. Oakland County, immediately to the north of Detroit is one of the 10 wealthiest counties in the entire USA and has a AAA credit rating. Michigan is actually a really nice place to live, especially if you love the outdoors. Ann Arbor which is close by is a fantastic college town too if that suits your sensibilities.

Re:Nothing new - Always had tech jobs

[LWATCDR]

Top two cities with the highest density of engineers are Huntsville Alabama and Palm Bay/Melbourne Florida for what should be obvious reasons.

Re:Nothing new - Always had tech jobs

[TechyImmigrant]

>Huntsville Alabama and Palm Bay/Melbourne Florida for what should be obvious reasons.

Should be but isn't. Why are they they the top two cities with the highest density of engineers?

Re:Nothing new - Always had tech jobs

[Anonymous Coward]

Oakland County, immediately to the north of Detroit is one of the 10 wealthiest counties in the entire USA and has a AAA credit rating.

Not quite that high (a quick search and the best I can find was 61st place in 2012), but yes, pretty good. Yes, the city (both downtown and it's residential areas) is pretty much a dump, but stay about 10-15 miles away from downtown and the vast majority of neighborhoods are pretty decent. Go another 10 miles and there are tons of REALLY nice neighborhoods. And going that far doesn't mean you have to drive far, since a lot of the big business areas are centered around troy, farmington hills, novi, and ann arbor (all a decent distance from downtown, skirting that 20-30 mile radius). It's very possible to get a good job and find a pretty nice house that's only a 10-20 minute drive away.

Re:Nothing new - Always had tech jobs

[Anonymous Coward]

>Huntsville Alabama and Palm Bay/Melbourne Florida for what should be obvious reasons.

Should be but isn't. Why are they they the top two cities with the highest density of engineers?

http://www.nasa.gov

Re:Nothing new - Always had tech jobs

[Anonymous Coward]

Hunstville has Redstone and a major NASA facitly there. the outgrowth of tech based companies over the years was just natural to support the work done on the base and at NASA.

Re:Nothing new - Always had tech jobs

[Anonymous Coward]

Ann Arbor - *wonderful* place. Even if you aren't into football!

Re:Nothing new - Always had tech jobs

[LWATCDR]

Wow and this is supposed to be news for nerds?
NASA Huntsville is home of the Marshall Space Flight Center.
Melbourne Florida /Palm Bay? The largest town near Kennedy Space Center, Cape Canaveral Air Force Base, Patricks Air Force Base, the Eastern Test Range, Harris corp, Raytheon, Boeing, and many other companies involved in space flight.
Big Nasa programs in relatively small cities means an extremely high percentage of highly educated tech people.

Re:Nothing new - Always had tech jobs

[rogoshen1]

and that point right there is why it bugs me when people were advocating letting the auto industry wither away.. there's a HUGE amount of intellectual capital and industrial potential that simply wouldn't exist without the auto industry.

Re:Nothing new - Always had tech jobs

[TechyImmigrant]

Ah. OK.

Re:Nothing new - Always had tech jobs

[msauve]

Top two cities with the highest density of engineers are Huntsville Alabama and Palm Bay/Melbourne Florida for what should be obvious reasons.

...the ability to live off the government.

Re:Nothing new - Always had tech jobs

[dlt074]

which would of been picked up by the next, possibly innovative, auto company to come along an buy up all the union heavy, bloated, bureaucratic, bankrupt companies assets at rock bottom prices. there is/was no need to bail the industry out. people like/want cars. somebody will always be around to make them and people move were the jobs are. you don't stop being valuable or employable because the company you work for goes out of business. it's called a free market. which we haven't had for some time.

as for moving to Detroit, no thank you. too many union types lurking around up there.

Re:Nothing new - Always had tech jobs

[sjbe]

which would of been picked up by the next, possibly innovative, auto company to come along an buy up all the union heavy, bloated, bureaucratic, bankrupt companies assets at rock bottom prices

Wouldn't have happened because the supply chain would have imploded. GM gets liquidated and it would have dragged Ford and Chrysler down with it because they all share the same suppliers. Even the CEO of Toyota publicly admitted that liquidating GM would have been a bad idea because it would have hurt them badly too. GM being liquidated puts Delphi and Lear and a bunch of other Tier 1, 2 and 3 companies out of business. My company would have folded and not come back.

you don't stop being valuable or employable because the company you work for goes out of business.

When a company the size of GM + its supply chain goes under, the jobs go away too and aren't easily replaced. There are a lot of very talented people who had a hard time finding work after 2008. Some still do.

as for moving to Detroit, no thank you. too many union types lurking around up there.

Pretty clueless comment there. You can easily work your whole career in Metro Detroit without having to deal with a union even once. Most workers in the area do not belong to a union of any sort and in fact the state just became a right-to-work state (for better or worse).

Re:Nothing new - Always had tech jobs

[swillden]

Top two cities with the highest density of engineers are Huntsville Alabama and Palm Bay/Melbourne Florida for what should be obvious reasons.

I'm sure that's true if you're counting traditional engineering fields, meaning not including software engineers. I'm not sure it would still be true if you included software. Of course many would argue that software engineering isn't yet mature enough to be a real engineering discipline, but it definitely is a big part of "tech", which is the subject of discussion.

Re:Nothing new - Always had tech jobs

[LWATCDR]

Actually probably not. Harris and the other aerospace companies employ a lot of programmers. But a degree in CS is not usually considered an Engineering degree. Also I would say that someone with no degree at all or one that is not in CS would not count as engineers. They are programmers.
And we are talking about per capita. Google, Facebook, Amazon, and Microsoft are all in areas that have a large population while Huntsville and Melbourne/Palm City are not large cities.

Re:Nothing new - Always had tech jobs

[khallow]

Wouldn't have happened because the supply chain would have imploded.

That is a swamp that needs to be cleaned out. GM will go bankrupt again and we'll be back at this same argument in a few years. I don't see to protecting a few jobs for a short time at the expense of the future.

When a company the size of GM + its supply chain goes under, the jobs go away too and aren't easily replaced.

Except by the next few major auto companies.

Re:Nothing new - Always had tech jobs

[Anonymous Coward]

That is a swamp that needs to be cleaned out. GM will go bankrupt again and we'll be back at this same argument in a few years. I don't see to protecting a few jobs for a short time at the expense of the future.

What comments like this miss is that the big thing the federal government did that wouldn't have happened in bankruptcy - it guaranteed that GM's and Chrysler's vendors would be paid in full. Had they gone into bankruptcy, these vendors would have received only a small fraction of what they were owed. Thereby dragging much of the US auto industry supply chain into bankruptcy with them. Without these suppliers the US auto industry would essentially evaporate.

Except by the next few major auto companies.

Here you are forgetting another key fact about 2008. The credit crisis meant that even healthy companies were unable to raise capital to buy up or rescue these suppliers. Some otherwise healthy Fortune 500 companies experienced severe cash flow problems that threatened their day to day operations.

Companies would not have considered using their precious cash reserves to invest in these companies during the crisis. By the time anyone could raise the capital to save enough of these companies to make a difference, it would have been too late.

Re:Nothing new - Always had tech jobs

[Jonah Hex]

Correct on many points, just adding:

Delphi came through bankruptcy due to these "supply chains can't fail" issues. It should of been broken up and replaced with something better, but it would of caused way too much turmoil in the industry.

There may be many unions in the area, but there is no tech union, and you're right I've never had to directly interact with one. The closest I've EVER gotten is having to call a certain office to get union guys to move furniture in the RenCen. Once in 25+ years.

Side note: these tech jobs don't exist, they're the same ones that have been posted over and over to bring in new visa holders, for the last 10+ years in some cases! (Ford/GM are especially bad at posting these never filled positions)
HEX

Re:Nothing new - Always had tech jobs

[khallow]

What comments like this miss is that the big thing the federal government did that wouldn't have happened in bankruptcy - it guaranteed that GM's and Chrysler's vendors would be paid in full.

Let's not go crazy with the assertions. A regular bankruptcy probably would have resulted in the same thing. Vendors are near the top of the list in bankruptcy court.

Here you are forgetting another key fact about 2008. The credit crisis meant that even healthy companies were unable to raise capital to buy up or rescue these suppliers. Some otherwise healthy Fortune 500 companies experienced severe cash flow problems that threatened their day to day operations.

That's ok. The businesses, not necessarily Fortune 500 without severe cash flow problems would be the ones doing the buying.

Re:Nothing new - Always had tech jobs

[MtViewGuy]

The big problem for Michigan is one county--Wayne, where Detroit is located--is literally dragging down the state. This is why a massive reorganization of Detroit's city finances was needed, and Detroit needs more transport links to Windsor, ON, something that the long-awaited New International Trade Crossing bridge will help in a big way.

Detroit has the potential to be a very prosperous city doing goods trade between the USA and Canada; with the right government and infrastructure improvements, it could fulfill that goal, something that could make even the tech industry boom in that town.

A bit stabbier than SF too

[Beeftopia]

List of the most dangerous cities in the US for 2013. Detroit is 3rd, right after Flint, Michigan.

Re:A bit stabbier than SF too

[AchilleTalon]

However, if you take into account the probability for natural disasters in the SF area, you may end even with Detroit. This article is misleading because it considers the criminality as the only threat to decide to which extent a city is dangerous or not. That's not fair.

Re:A bit stabbier than SF too

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah what's the probability of surviving a 7 earthquake in SF vs. 2 rounds from a Glock at less than 5ft?

Re:A bit stabbier than SF too

[bitingduck]

I think the annual winter more than compensates for earthquake and fire risk. I grew up in the Detroit area, and I'll take the earthquake and fire risk in the hills around LA over winter, thanks.

Re:A bit stabbier than SF too

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah what's the probability of surviving a 7 earthquake in SF vs. 2 rounds from a Glock at less than 5ft?

What is probability of getting hit by an earth quake vs. getting hit by a glock?

Re:A bit stabbier than SF too

[Anonymous Coward]

So you will take earth quakes and fires that will kill you over harmless snow?

Re:A bit stabbier than SF too

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah what's the probability of surviving a 7 earthquake in SF vs. 2 rounds from a Glock at less than 5ft?

More likely to be a revolver or a .22, but yeah.

Re:A bit stabbier than SF too

[bitingduck]

Add up all the people who are injured and/or die due to snow and ice related traffic accidents (or simply slipping on their sidewalks) before you call snow harmless.

Detroit proper, or Detroit *area*?

[Anonymous Coward]

I bet they're counting Ann Arbor and maybe even Windsor Ontario as "Detroit".

Detroit proper? NFW.

The downside is...

[Anonymous Coward]

... you have to live in Detroit...

Re:The downside is...

[bobbied]

... you have to live in Detroit...

Or at least NEAR Detroit... It may not be as bad outside the city, but in my experience, it was nearly so. Was glad to get OUT of Michigan after living there for two years. Stopped and kissed the ground when I crossed the state line..

Re:The downside is...

[Rob Simpson]

Only until you get shot.

Re:The downside is...

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope.

For half the price as a shitty 1000 sq/ft apartment in the San Francisco area you can buy a nice 3000 sq/ft house on the lake in Belleville.

Wait for it....

[retech]

I went back for a visit last winter. It's sad. There are tiny pockets of hold outs and then the rest is just a free for all. Scrappers have gutted ever bit of available metal from any empty building not staffed with armed guards. This is best done with a sledge hammer and torch. The buildings are not recoverable after that. The roads are worse than a dirt road. At least gravity levels those out a bit. Then there's the crime.

I found a hipster pocket in DelRay. Perhaps one of the most obliterated areas. The homes are early 20th cen and cute. They sell for about $10 - 100. If you can find a buyer. There was a 2 block section of white hipsters fixing up their little gems. Baby strollers, all the trimmings. And I commented to a friend who still lives about .5 miles away: "Don't they realize when things get bad enough they're gonna be food for the locals?" He just laughed and said no.

Nothing has really changed there. Sadly it won't. The mentality is still the same. No matter how much money you throw at it. The city is corrupt from the ground up and has been for 100+ yrs. The new mayor may help. But he'll most likely give up like Archer did. Without a major paradigm shift in mentality it will always be Detroit.

Re:Wait for it....

[Anonymous Coward]

I drove through Brightmoor in 2009. Lived there for seven years in the '70s.

First thing I saw turning South from Fenkell on Dolphin was a `youth' at the top of the driveway in front of a house profiling with a TEC-9 and watching me pass. There is unidentified stuff rotting in the street. Double murders are routine.

A few months ago the Blow Torch Rapist was caught after he raped and .... blow-torched ... some women. No one that doesn't follow Detroit news even knows about it.

To work there you have to understand that there are places Detroit where if you stop while driving through you will not survive. They will kill you. Full stop. So, drive a low mileage SUV at all times, get a carry permit and a clue. You'll need them all.

The city is corrupt from the ground up

Indeed. The bankruptcy auditors found that this city council wrote a couple billion in arbitrary checks against the municipal pension fund to all sorts of characters for decades. We use to put people in prison for that. Hoffa, another Detroiter, for one.

Re:Wait for it....

[mjpollard]

You're talking about the city of Detroit. The article talks about the Metro Detroit area, which means the city as well as the surrounding suburbs (mostly in the counties of Wayne, Oakland, and Macomb, which are the counties that surround the city). The suburbs, by and large, are good, safe places to live, especially Oakland. The city of Detroit has plenty of problems, there's no denying that, but you do a disservice to the entire region by focusing solely on the city.

Re:Wait for it....

[retech]

Detroit gets its water, power, sewage, and some emergency service from the surrounding areas. Detroit is doing the disservice. I'm just pointing out what a shit hole the place is.

Re:Wait for it....

[s.petry]

I moved from there 3 years ago and still keep tabs (I have relatives from Detroit out to Flint and Pontiac). GM called me when they started pulling their IT back into Detroit and I laughed at their offer.

You hint at it, but I'll state it plainly. Claiming there is a "Boom" in Detroit is horribly distorting reality. In reality, the numbers went up because IT jobs were brought back from overseas, not because there is some magical "new" businesses. Next year these numbers will show very little change, and the next. Sure, there is some trickle effect but it's not a "boom". It's a one time relocation.

Michigan's tax laws pushed the majority of businesses away long ago. Tax rates are too high for any industrial work to move back, and large commercial companies will avoid Michigan for the same reason. Granholm ran around trying to peddle companies to move in for 1-3 years tax free. Companies would talk to her, but looking at a 20-28% tax when your free time ends is simply too much. Especially when you can cross the border into Ohio and pay 1/2 that rate.

Where I don't agree with you is that the city has been corrupt for 100+ years. Prior to Young the city was on par with any other big city in the US. Young was horribly corrupt and should have been in jail, just like Killpatrick.

Re:Wait for it....

[s.petry]

Nope, not especially Oakland. Madison Heights, Royal Oak, Ferndale, bleh! Really it depends on where in Oakland County you are, but don't lump in cities like I just mentioned. Safer than Detroit for sure, but Baghdad is safer than Detroit.

Long long ago the line was 8mile, and today it's around 12 mile to be "good area" which rules out lots of Oakland County cities.

Re:Wait for it....

[raind]

You don't want to live in Delray for christ's sake, no one does, it's down wind of or next to a Marathon refinery among others, then there's Zug island.

There are some fine living areas in the city and surrounding burbs, but I'm not telling.

Re:Wait for it....

[raind]

The thing with the auto industry is there always cycle, the last purge of big 3 techie/IT resulted with them being replaced by or joining the contractors, now they bringing some back in house. the whole driver assist thing is helping that, but I try to stay clear of the auto industry, but done some contract work as it can hard to avoid auto.

Re:Wait for it....

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm a Detroiter -- born and raised in the city -- and you are just making it up. You know nothing about it.

One simple example is below you say the city gets its water from surrounding areas. The truth is that the city of Detroit supplies water to the surrounding areas; in fact a proposal by the emergency manager, Kevin Orr, is to convert it into a utility co-owned by the neighboring counties.

What you write sounds like the usual crap made up by suburbanites who never cross 8 mile. You should be ashamed.

Re:Wait for it....

[Anonymous Coward]

Long long ago the line was 8mile, and today it's around 12 mile to be "good area" which rules out lots of Oakland County cities.

What he means is the line between white and black neighborhoods. Not hard to tell the white suburban Detroiters here.

I'm white and lived in the city for a long time. I loved the people and felt as safe as in the many other cities I've lived. Out in the suburbs are the white racists who flee (or call the police or point a gun) at the sign of anyone with skin darker than theirs; as a result, they know nothing about the city or anyone who doesn't look like them.

Re:Wait for it....

[s.petry]

Nope, it's not just about the 'white' racist white people. I grew up in Ferndale and Madison Heights and have no issues with race. There are certain areas you learn not to visit if you are white, just like black people learn where not to go.

The Detroit area has a lot of bigots and racism, but it's not just white bigots and racists. If you have doubts and are black, go driving around in Livonia. If you are white, cruise around in Centerline. These are just 2 examples, but there are plenty to be found.

You claim to be white and from "the city" but don't actually mention a city which to me indicates that you are just a poser. Driving main roads into the "Joe" or Cobo Hall does not make you "from the city".

Re:Wait for it....

[s.petry]

If you were really from the city you would not claim "I'm from the city" but would claim "I'm from Hamtramk" or "I'm from Dearborn". What you wrote instead equates to completely false claims.

shhh

[Anonymous Coward]

shhh, we do not need anymore people in the area. I like to be in demand and getting the proper money for my skill set. Do not blow it for the people here making bank.

re: dumb enough to live in unsafe places ....

[King_TJ]

It doesn't necessarily mean someone is making a dumb decision. This can be a perfectly legitimate, sensible option, IMO.

I knew people who moved to Mexico in the past, with similar motivations. If you can earn enough money there, you can easily afford to build yourself a fortress of a house and hire people to go out and run errands for you, etc. It might not make sense for someone with a whole family to take care of. But a younger, single person who might tend to be more of an introvert in the first place might be happy to "go where the money is" and spend a portion of it to buy the security that's lacking in the environment otherwise.

Upsides and downsides

[Anonymous Coward]

Upsides: Detroit gets to pull itself up, maybe a single-digit percentages from the bottom.

Downsides: Tech people have to make a grim choice to take those jobs, consumers have to get more stuff in our cars that we don't really want.

It could happen

[ErichTheRed]

I'm a Rust Belt kid, so seeing northern cities on something of a comeback trajectory is a good thing to me. The problem is image -- you have to find techies who are willing to put up with a very messed up local economy and deal with winter. I'm from Buffalo, and winters there are very long and cold. The obvious benefit is that the cost of living is much lower than California or similar. I couldn't believe last time I was in CA to visit a friend that they had just paid almost a million dollars for a 3-bedroom house with no property. I don't care how good the weather is, that's absolutely nuts, and I live in the NYC metro area, so I know about high real estate prices.

I think it's all cyclical. Right now where I am, everyone is moving to North Carolina (Why??) People cite a much lower cost of living. That's true -- you can sell your Long Island house and buy (literally) a mansion on several acres in NC. The only problem is that Charlotte, RTP, etc. are still cities and real estate that's close to jobs is going to be more. Your mansion is going to be 25 miles' drive from anywhere. Atlanta has a similar issue -- people deal with multi-hour commutes so they can live in a massive house inside a gated community in the middle of nowhere. Side note - a friend of mine who moved there for a job refers to Cary, NC as an acronym -- Containment Area for Relocated Yankees.

Personally, I love winter and would have no desire to move somewhere like Florida, Texas, or Arizona. Right now, those are the cheapest places business-wise, so jobs move there. But the northern states can play the game too. New York just gave some new businesses a 10 year tax holiday if they locate in certain parts of the state. All the state economic development agencies engage in this kind of poaching. The only problem is that the South is better at it because they don't fund schools and local governments to the same extent. If Michigan and Detroit are serious about this, and can afford it, then the businesses will move back. Executives don't care because they would either stay put or be happy just about anywhere. To them, it's not all that hard to pick up and move.

Low real estate prices, compact metro areas that mean short commute times, etc. are advantages that these states and cities can use. We'll see if it pans out.

Re:It could happen

[Anonymous Coward]

I just moved back to Cleveland after 7 years in DC. Been the best decision I've recently made for most of the reasons you state - my mortgage is half what it was in Arlington, but my basement alone is 150% the size of my old condo. My commute is also shorter, everything is cheaper, we actually get snow, and summers don't regularly hit 100. And I don't have to deal with the pretentious folks that you find on every street corner in NoVA.

Re:It could happen

[dirtaddshp]

"compact metro areas" I lived in North Hollywood, CA which has those types of areas. It takes over an hour to drive 10 miles because every couple miles you sit in traffic for 20 minutes at a time... gridlock. Im done with that.

Re:It could happen

[nine-times]

All the state economic development agencies engage in this kind of poaching. The only problem is that the South is better at it because they don't fund schools and local governments to the same extent.

Of course, it's worth noting that low tax rates aren't the only consideration. If you have crappy schools and a low standard of living, then you might have a harder time drawing good employees. If you have crappy infrastructure, then you might have a harder time conducting your business. If your business requires an affluent population and other businesses to deal with, then a sparse population with little economic development doesn't make for a good location. Cuts to the local government are often not a good thing for businesses, even if it means lower taxes for the businesses. There are reasons why lots of businesses still locate themselves in big cities with high taxes and lots of regulation.

Re:It could happen

[Nidi62]

I think it's all cyclical. Right now where I am, everyone is moving to North Carolina (Why??) People cite a much lower cost of living. That's true -- you can sell your Long Island house and buy (literally) a mansion on several acres in NC. The only problem is that Charlotte, RTP, etc. are still cities and real estate that's close to jobs is going to be more. Your mansion is going to be 25 miles' drive from anywhere. Atlanta has a similar issue -- people deal with multi-hour commutes so they can live in a massive house inside a gated community in the middle of nowhere.

I went to college abut 40 minutes outside Charlotte, and have lived in Metro Atlanta most of my life. For Charlotte, just move to the east side of the city down 74. There is not much out that way, but Indian Trail and Matthews are decently sized and pretty nice, and only about 20 minues from downtown Charlotte. It gets a little more rundown and country as you get towards Monroe and further out (Wingate, the town and university I went to just next to Monroe is literally a 2 stop light town). If you are someone that has to live right in the middle of everything you would hate it. But for someone who wants to live comfortably for cheap it's perfect.

Now, as for Metro Atlanta, I live in Cobb County, mostly in East Cobb. We have houses ranging from $150k all the way up to $1MM plus, all with decent sized lots (not acres worth on average, but you can find those if you don't mind older houses with wooded lots). A lot of recent construction is in the $400k and up range. It is about 20 minutes from downtown and in early rush hour you can be at the Atlanta airport in 40 minutes. The only people with hours-long commutes either live in Newnan, Gwinnett/Cherokee County(dealing with 400 and 575 respectively) or leave right in the middle of rush hour every day.

Re:It could happen

[ErichTheRed]

I've had different experiences. I worked at 2 places that threatened to relocate to the South, one to Atlanta, and one to Orlando. The first one was just a corporate fiat, as in "those NY guys are too expensive, close the office and move it all down here." The second was an active IDA poach by Florida. Both wound up not working...the first was because, as you said, the company would lose too many of their knowledge workers and they weren't confident they could find new ones. When they started bleeding people, they realized they might want to rethink it. The second was basically just called off because the company got a sweetheart deal from New York.

My experience has been that companies will try to move their less skilled work or work that is considered non-core (like IT) to cheaper locations first. If the target location gives them a good enough deal, they'll just move the whole company. This is probably just short-sighted MBA stuff...executives are largely shielded from whatever environment the lower infrastructure investment produces. Their kids will go to private schools, they'll live in the best areas, etc. so they don't see any of the problems and they also see a quick win. Even if you get to keep your salary and relocate, you'll either be up for a layoff right away or never have your salary increased by much again, until your compensation matches the local market. So, you have to take that into consideration; either you love the area you're moving to and make a decision to stay, or you'll have to pull up stakes again and move back.

When even the real estate agents running a relocation tour mention that your kids will need to go to private school to get an equivalent education to where you're coming from, you know you're going to be in for an interesting experience.

Re:It could happen

[evilviper]

The obvious benefit is that the cost of living is much lower than California or similar.

That's an idiotic thing to say. California is a huge state. You might as well say the cost of living in "North America" or "On Earth" is too high.

I couldn't believe last time I was in CA to visit a friend that they had just paid almost a million dollars for a 3-bedroom house with no property.

I'm in CA, and I bought a 3br house on half an acre for $45k. I was paying $500/mo rent before that, for a 2br apartment.

Unlike rust-belt states, I pay almost nothing for heating and cooling. My electric bill goes up maybe $10/month in the summer, and my natural gas bill goes up maybe $10/month in the winter (water heater, mostly). The insane home heating costs in the rust-belt will eventually trump the lower property prices.

So your list of benefits is all imaginary.

Re:It could happen

[MtViewGuy]

Here's what could save the "Rust Belt": easy access to fresh water. And water is going to be more precious than oil at the rate things are going.

Yes, the winters in the Upper Midwest can be harsh, but look at how the Minneapolis-St. Paul area has thrived in spite of that, thanks to careful city planning to make it viable even in the middle of winter.

Couting Tech jobs.... Like "counting" Obamacare

[marcgvky]

I smell fuzzy math. It usually smells like bullshit.

The question

[Anonymous Coward]

Are we talking real, full time, long term jobs, or did they hit the jackpot at the H1-B lottery?

Take him to....

[dacarr]

Yanno, I can't help but think of this scene from the Kentucky Fried Movie whenever somebody suggests that something is going to go to Detroit.

Cheap cooling

[rsilvergun]

and cheap wages (lower rent means you can pay people less). People will go where the work is, whether they like it or not.

Re:Cheap cooling

[Anonymous Coward]

And work will go where the infrastructure is, and that's not Detroilet.

Re:Cheap cooling

[plopez]

That's why Mumbai, Bangalore, and New Dehli will never attract tech companies. And the climate! Typhoons, floods, droughts etc. And the malaria, cholera, typhus, and plauge. Nope. India will never develop a tech industry.

Re:Cheap cooling

[cusco]

People will go where the work is, whether they like it or not.

And if it's Detroit there will be a lot of "not". I take it the executives of these companies will be living somewhere the weather is livable and the food is decent.

Re:Cheap cooling

[cusco]

I still remember when I was a kid and Indira Gandhi spent a gazillion dollars on upgrading the Indian university system with an emphasis on computers. Pretty much everyone that wasn't laughing were outraged that she was "wasting" that money instead of feeding the poor. I wonder where India would be now if she were still alive.

Re:Cheap cooling

[Anonymous Coward]

The poor people would still be starving and living in squalor like they do now?

Re:Cheap cooling

[ShanghaiBill]

People will go where the work is, whether they like it or not.

Tech unemployment is below 4%. We can afford to be choosy. I live in San Jose, CA, which has the best schools and the lowest crime of any big city in America. Today it is 72F, with clear blue skies, and tomorrow will be the same. I wouldn't move to Detroit if you tripled my salary.

Re:Cheap cooling

[binarylarry]

They'd be staving and living in squalor with iPad and high speed internet!

Gauranga!

Re:Cheap cooling

[luis_a_espinal]

The poor people would still be starving and living in squalor like they do now?

You are being facetious and spiteful. Yes, there are still hundred of millions of poor in India, but also, many hundred of millions have been lifted out of poverty because of the emergent tech/service industry.

In 2003-2004, the % of population in India living below the poverty line was over 37%. A decade later (meaning now), it is at 21%. This is a 56.75% drop in extreme poverty in a decade. Not shabby if you ask me. And if you consider that the population % living under poverty was almost 60% in the 1950s, then in 6 decades, poverty %s have been reduced by 2/3. Again, not shabby.

That there are still significant problems, like malnutrition, and a still vulnerable low-to-middle class? Of course. But to pretend or dismiss the significant advances that country has made just because they still have a lot to fix, that's disingenuous. It is equally disingenuous to pretend India made a fundamental mistake in investing in tech and education simply because that did not prove a 100% failure-free solution to all the significant problems the country had (and still has.)

Do the Math

[Anonymous Coward]

A nice package but you have to look under the cover and ask

As a Tech worker do I
Want to deal with East Coast Winters?
Live in the Cultural Mecca of the Mid-West?
Live in Detroit?
Deal with the crime?
Raise kids and send them to school there?
Work at a huge Dinosaur of a corporation?

As someone who has spent time in the Mid-west rust belt, I just don't see many people with real talent being willing to sign up for that.

-Just saying

I live in Ann Arbor, MI

[Anonymous Coward]

Detroit a tech hub? LOL, make sure you get a carry permit when you move there. It would have to be a fat paycheck indeed to get me within 30 miles of Detroilet.

Derp.

[Anonymous Coward]

And I've known people who have been mugged. I've seen signs posted warning office employees of men running about mugging people whilst brandishing firearms.

Protip: Statistically, you're nobody. Bonus protip: The vast majority of people in SF aren't mugged. The vast majority of people in Detroit aren't mugged.

Hell, the vast majority of people in Camden aren't murdered.

Doesn't mean your threat-free experience equates to the sort of 'safety' people like to imagine, though.

"Benchmarked region"

[Anonymous Coward]

Denver-Boulder, noticeably absent, recently pegged as having the most scientists per capita than anywhere else in the nation. Hell, Twitter just acquired my downstairs neighbors.

No thanks

[BenSchuarmer]

I grew up in the midwest and prefer the west coast. When I want snow, I can go to the mountains to experience it.

I have a few relatives who expressed displeasure because I bought an imported car 16 years ago (don't blame me for wanting a well made car when America's big 3 where producing a lot of junk). I still drive that car today; they've had to replace their American made cars a couple times. They lived a couple of states away from Michigan, I'd guess that Michigan itself would be worse. As a techie, I want to be able to figure out what works instead of clinging to tradition.

I also wouldn't want my kids anywhere near Detroit schools.

Irony

[jtara]

I left Detroit for San Diego around 1985. I wrote software for various auto-related stuff (CNC, gauging, factory automation, SQC, Variation Analysis...) when I was there, and the experience was invaluable.

The irony is that the percentage of tech works now is likely many times what it was when I was there. The job loss has been in blue-collor factory jobs, support jobs for the closed factories, service and retail to support all those workers, etc. etc. etc.

Yea, my old high school (Cass Tech) got gutted by a scrapper fire. (They built a new school, and the old one was to be turned into Condos...)

Blacks...

[Anonymous Coward]

... Need I say anything else?

Detoilet is a failure because of BLACKS, nothing else.

White create.
Blacks destroy.

Any questions?

Hipsters generally do ok

[rsilvergun]

they'll move on when the time comes. Most of 'em have degrees. They'll leave behind the slums. While they're there the locals won't mess with them, because if they do the police (who are heavily armed thanks to 30 years of hand-me-downs from the military) will bust some heads until they do. Remember the last round of riots in Los Angeles? Everyone laughed and called them dumb because they trashed their own neighborhoods. That wasn't by choice. There were cops in full riot gear with military grade tanks cordoning off the rich communities so they didn't spill over...

The poor have learned to keep their misery to themselves...

Re:Hipsters generally do ok

[retech]

LA and Detroit are two entirely different beasts. Unless you have a dead body of some kind a cop does not respond in Detroit. It's been policy for decades. Car accidents and robberies are reported by the victim downtown. They used to have a specialized response team nicknamed the Big Four. That was a good deal of ass kicking if that car showed up. But budget issues did away with them in the late 80's. Detroit's police are not as well armed as the citizens.

I just wonder about the ensuing hipster massacres and if they'll post it live to tumblr as they go down?

Re:Hipsters generally do ok

[Anonymous Coward]

In '67 during the Detroit riots the fires and looting were confined to the commercial properties along the larger roads. The neighborhoods immediately adjacent to those burning businesses were untouched. There was no love on the part of the rioters for the whites that lived in those houses back then. The houses didn't burn because there was a homeowner with a shotgun or rifle in the yard of every other house. I have one of those rifles today.

Re:Hipsters generally do ok

[Anonymous Coward]

"That wasn't by choice."

Really? so theywere FORCED to trash their own stuff.. DO IT BURN YOUR OWN HOUSE! DO IT NOW OR WE WILL SHOOT YOU!

No, they are simply stupid. Rioters are always stupid, as in dumb as a box of rocks stupid.

Re:Hipsters generally do ok

[swillden]

The hipsters should arm themselves. Michigan's gun laws aren't too restrictive, and with the money saved on housing they should be able to afford to arm and train themselves well. Your average hoodlum barely knows how to operate his gun, which is often a piece of junk, so the bar isn't too high.

Re:Hipsters generally do ok

[Anonymous Coward]

Unless you have a dead body of some kind a cop does not respond in Detroit. It's been policy for decades. Car accidents and robberies are reported by the victim downtown. They used to have a specialized response team nicknamed the Big Four. That was a good deal of ass kicking if that car showed up. But budget issues did away with them in the late 80's.

More bullshit.

The 'specialized response teams' were white cops notorious for beating up black citizens. When Detroit finally got a black mayor, Coleman Young, he integrated the police force and did away with these squads.

When my house, in Detroit, was robbed, the police came, just like every other city.

I'm white and middle class and loved living there. People were generally very friendly -- much more than other cities I've lived in -- cool, and unpretentious. There was little racial tension. It was only out in the suburbs, where I suspect you've lived your sorry sheltered life, that you saw real racial problems.

Math tip

[Richy_T]

Low numbers making small increases can be made to sound impressive if expressed as percentages. True fact.

Re:Math tip

[Anonymous Coward]

Low numbers?

30,000 new jobs and you call that a low number? That's enough people to fill a stadium!

How many more stadiums would it take to impress you?

Re:Math tip

[Richy_T]

What stadiums-to-libraries-of-congress ratio are we talking?

IKR,

[k31]

why would they do that to you?

Totally unkool, bro.

I'm in the Bible Belt

[Anonymous Coward]

Metro Atlanta with family in Birmingham and Berkeley, CA.

So, I have seen a bit of the differences of American attitude.

Here in Metro Atlanta, we have pockets of folks who would fit right in at Berkely - the stereotype of course - and in Berkely, there are folks who'd fit right in with my Bible thumping-Republicans can do no wrong-anal retentive only dogs can hear them fart Conservatives:FoxNews can be too Liberal for them - type of people.

Generally speaking, outside of the pockets of educated people, the masses here in the Bible Belt are ignorant. They are the ones who think there is a "controversy" when it comes to Evolution. They think the Bible is a historical document - it is fact - not allegorical stories by Iron Age Jews.

You drive down I-75 and below Macon you see billboards by ELECTED REPRESENTATIVES proclaiming their Christianity and "conservative" values.

Here in the Bible Belt, most folks make the Middle Eastern religious fanatics look tame.

The Bible Belt Jesus is a gun carrying, anti-poor, no-empathy or compassion white asshole. Fuck the POOR! They deserve it!

Might makes right and if you're poor, you are defective - the whole "eye of the camel" thing goes past their ignorant heads.

It's all Old Testament here bud - and those people fit the New Testament into that Biblical View.

tl;dr: The people in the Bible Belt are just as bad as the Muslim nuts they condemn. They don't stone anyone or blow shit up because they are 'God fear'in Mericans who follow the law! But don't take our gund away! We may need to kill someone - fuck the "Thou shall no kill" because it ain't applicable!"

P.S. I have NEVER met a Christian in the USofA - ever.

Saint Louis

[sjbe]

Funny, because Detroit isn't that far removed from St. Louis weather-wise, and STL is the tech hub of the midwest.

I've lived both places within the last 10 years plus I got my education at WashU. St Louis is decidedly NOT the "tech hub of the midwest". Plenty going on there and some pretty good talent and a nice place to live but there is WAY more tech going on near Detroit than in St Louis except for a few areas. If there is a "tech hub of the midwest" it is either Chicago or Detroit depending on how you want to measure it.

Dice ranked Missouri as the fastest growing state in regards to tech jobs last year.

Not hard to grow fast when you don't have all that many to begin with. Plus a lot of the tech jobs in Missouri are in Kansas City.

Re:Saint Louis

[CanHasDIY]

Dice ranked Missouri as the fastest growing state in regards to tech jobs last year.

Not hard to grow fast when you don't have all that many to begin with. Plus a lot of the tech jobs in Missouri are in Kansas City.

And Monett - Jack Henry pretty much has that place on lockdown, jobs-wise.

Clueless

[sjbe]

What makes ME laugh about such articles is that Detroit is in the midst of some *serious* financial issues.

Detroit CITY is in the midst of such issues. Detroit METRO is largely unaffected. Oakland County immediately to the north of Detroit City is one of the ten wealthiest counties in the US and has a AAA credit rating. Guess where 80% of the population of Metro Detroit lives? (hint - it isn't in Detroit City)

Who would want to live anyplace near such a situation?

Because most people who live NEAR Detroit City don't live IN Detroit City and haven't for a long time. Metro Detroit is actually a very nice place to live and Michigan is absolutely beautiful. I know because I've lived there.

It's like a third world country in decline, with the crime, blight and debt in abundance.

If you think that then you really know nothing about it and clearly haven't visited the area. Yes there are some parts of Detroit City that are pretty crappy. That doesn't describe much of the rest of Michigan.

Nope, articles like this are just the dying gasps of the marketing company hired to try and attract new business to a sinking ship.

Automation Alley is not a marketing company. They are a sort of tech transfer organization/incubator that helps Michigan businesses grow. It's actually a pretty neat operation and I've been to events they hold. The studies they cite are actually well researched and factual. There are a HUGE number of tech jobs in Michigan and Metro Detroit has more engineers per square mile than all but a handful of cities in the US. There is an enormous amount of technology that goes into manufacturing and about 50 of the largest manufacturing companies plus their supply chains are headquartered in Michigan, most fairly close to Detroit.

Re:Clueless

[Anonymous Coward]

Beautiful? Sure, 4 months of the year.

The Winters aren't bad? Hahaha right, we just recorded record snowfall that beat the old record set in the 1880s and the average temperature for Jan/Feb was 12. 12 effing degrees. WONDERFUL WINTERS!

Counties largely unaffected? Bullshit - Oakland County is largely insulated because of good government and a crapton of cash (I live there). Macomb and Wayne county are spending money they dont have faster than an EBT recipient on the first of the month. And BOTH counties are nearly in a financial emergency.

I'll never understand the apologists, the defenders of such a shitty place.

Only difference between Northern bigot and Souther

[Anonymous Coward]

The accent.

Natural rebound

[sjbe]

It's a number ploy by a marketing firm...

It most assuredly is not a marketing ploy. There is a HUGE number of technology jobs in and around Detroit Metro and always has been because guess what? There is a LOT of technology that goes into manufacturing cars. Robotics, computers, automation, coatings, materials science, welding, forming, stamping, chemicals, etc. As the auto industry has bounced back from 2008-2009, job growth has rebounded too. It's actually not surprising at all that Detroit's job growth is rather high at the moment.

Trust me, you DON'T want to live anywhere near there..

Only morons who have never actually come to Michigan think that. Look, 80% of Detroit Metro is outside the City. Oakland Country which is immediately to the north of Detroit is one to the ten wealthiest counties in the US, has a AAA credit rating and is a genuinely nice place to live. Ann Arbor (20 miles west) is one if the nicest college towns you could ever want to visit and has some really cool business activity going on.

Re:Natural rebound

[Anonymous Coward]

As an ex-Michigander, I'll grant that Ann Arbor is one of the nice parts of Michigan. However, the climate really, really sucks, your car will rust out because of the salt used to de-ice the roads, and diversity seems to be limited to a choice of black culture, Polish culture, or poor white trash culture. And that's before you take into account the collapse of the auto industry and the domino economic effects it had across the state over the past decade.

It's no accident that Hell is located in Michigan. :)

Re:Natural rebound

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, and don't forget the unions. You'd better vocally like unions if you move to Michigan because if you don't, somebody's going to slash your tires.

Re:Natural rebound

[bobbied]

Only morons who have never actually come to Michigan think that. Look, 80% of Detroit Metro is outside the City.

I lived just west of Detroit for 2 years. Couldn't wait to move.

Re:Natural rebound

[Anonymous Coward]

I lived just west of Detroit for 2 years.

For non-Detroiters: Those are some of the most depressing suburbs in the region.

Re:Natural rebound

[Anonymous Coward]

Just left Michigan. Went to a Lion's game a year ago and on a lark decided to drive up Gratiot Ave after the game. Parts of Detroit looked like Mogadishu. The entire state is being hamstrung by the financial woes of Flint and Detroit. The largest industry in Michigan is manufacturing with agriculture a close second. Agriculture. The place has sales taxes, no fault insurance, city and state individual income taxes. The winters start in October and last well into March....this year April. You don't see the sun for weeks at a time. The roads are horrible. In the city proper city services can't be maintained everywhere. The liberal Democrat run police have finally thrown up their hands and advised people to arm themselves. Check out how many students in Detroit actually graduate from high school and then remember that these unskilled people aren't moving anywhere anytime soon. There are structural problems that won't be overcome in two lifetimes.

Re:Natural rebound

[carys689]

... Ann Arbor (20 miles west) is one if the nicest college towns you could ever want to visit and has some really cool business activity going on.

Not if you went to Ohio State. :)

Irrelevant to jobs

[sjbe]

List of the most dangerous cities in the US for 2013. Detroit is 3rd, right after Flint, Michigan.

So what? 80% of the population of Detroit Metro lives outside the City. Most of Detroit Metro is actually quite safe, similar to any other large metropolitan region. Very few people live in the City and most of the near-term economic opportunity and jobs is not in the City either. I've lived near Detroit and very rarely had any reason to visit the City itself. If I dropped you off in nearby city like Birmingham you'll find it to be as nice a place as just about anywhere in San Francisco and VERY safe.

you know who else was ghettoized ?

[Anonymous Coward]

That's a strange way to spell "ghetto".

Profits

[sjbe]

a lot of car makers can build cars in the USA profitably. even small cars. except GM and Ford

Given that Ford earned $7.2 Billion in net income in 2013 and GM made a $3.8 billion profit over the same period I think GM and Ford will be very surprised to hear that they cannot make cars in the US profitably since most of their profit comes from US operations.

part of the problem is the factories are old and there is no more room to expand.

You don't need to expand factories to make the efficient. Inefficient factories get shut down and those that remain are doing just fine. I have visited numerous Ford and GM assembly plants (as well as Toyota and Honda) and for the most part they are as efficient and profitable as those of their leading competitors.

Re:Profits

[Anonymous Coward]

But their most efficient plants are located outside North America and will NEVER be replicated in the US or Canada as long as UAW work rules are in place.

Re:Profits

[tlambert]

Given that Ford earned $7.2 Billion in net income in 2013 and GM made a $3.8 billion profit over the same period I think GM and Ford will be very surprised to hear that they cannot make cars in the US profitably since most of their profit comes from US operations.

They'd only be surprised if you told them they'd be doing it in Detroit, instead of non-union plants in other U.S. states:
http://www.nytimes.com/ref/us/...

You don't need to expand factories to make the efficient.

Correct. You just need to reduce the number of employees to increase the profit per employee, which is something you can do with automation, and.or lower wages, which is not something you can do in Michigan.

Re:Profits

[Anonymous Coward]

This is after how many bankruptcies, debt restructuring (some at tax payer expense)? Yes, my house can be profitable too if the loan is forgiven over and over again.

Re:Profits

[JeffAtl]

Where were GM and Ford's cars built?

Glitz and Glamour

[ausekilis]

Once you get past all the glitz, glamour and Robocop statue, you're still left with Detroit.

Not so different

[sjbe]

The problem is, Texas has been electing politicians that while they apparently are exactly what Texas thinks is good, look to the rest of the non-red country as not so hot.

You mean like how the rest of the country elected George Bush twice?

Re:Not so different

[Ol Olsoc]

You mean like how the rest of the country elected George Bush twice?

Once. The first time, The Supreme court elected him 5-4.

Re:Not so different

[sjbe]

Once. The first time, The Supreme court elected him 5-4.

He got plenty of votes from plenty of people outside of Texas. And the people RE-ELECTED him and there was no debate on that one. While I think that was a huge mistake, obviously enough people liked him well enough that he got to spend 8 years in the white house.

Detroit? HAHAHAHAAHAHAHA!

[Lumpy]

The infrastructure here is crumbled to dust, any real data pipelines are to the west at Ann Arbor which by the way is where any michigan real tech companies are at.

Detroit is dead, they need to bullzose the whole thing and start over.

FUNNY!

[Lumpy]

A detroiter thinking winters are bad..... HAHAHAHAHA!
I live in michigan to the west, I would get 8-20X more snow than detroit ever did. This winter I had 6 feet in my front yard. 6 feet of snow, think about that.

Detroiters are as wimpy as Atlantaians when it comes to snow, come on over and visit the lake michigan side where we get real amounts of snow. 1 foot overnight doesnt even close schools.

Re:FUNNY!

[bitingduck]

Winters in Michigan are balmy compared to Minneapolis, where I also spent 6 years commuting by bike most of the time...

If I want winter I can get on my bike a few months out of the year and ride up to 3000 ft or higher where the snow is polite enough to stay.

4 million people disagree

[sjbe]

I take it the executives of these companies will be living somewhere the weather is livable and the food is decent.

The weather in Michigan is tremendous unless you are a complete wuss about a little snow. If you actually like to go outside the weather is terrific, particularly if you like boating. Never more than 80 miles from one of the Great Lakes anywhere in Michigan. In the summer I never been anyplace with better weather. Detroit Metro has about 4 million residents who think you are a big old wuss.

Furthermore there are terrific food establishments and markets in the Detroit Metro area. Roast, Zingermans, Eastern Market and lots lots more. There are high quality grocery stores and farmers markets everywhere. The fresh produce is tremendous.

Re:4 million people disagree

[cusco]

Screw that, I grew up in Traverse City. I know what the weather is like, the last year that we lived there the first week in February the temperature never got above 10 below, and six months later the first week in August never got below 97 (even at night). Now that I know what decent weather and good food is like the only time you get me back there is for weddings and funerals.

Re:4 million people disagree

[mschuyler]

Of course you have to make it through the day without getting murdered. Detroit is exceeded only by New Orleans for murder capital of America (48 per 100,000 in 2011). Compare Silicon Valley (San Jose) at 4.6 per 100,000 in 2012. So by this time next year a couple thousand of those 4 million will be dead.

There's a lot more to avoid in Detroit than the snow. I guess that makes me a wuss.

Re:4 million people disagree

[sjbe]

I know what the weather is like, the last year that we lived there the first week in February the temperature never got above 10 below, and six months later the first week in August never got below 97 (even at night).

Wow. One week of cold and one week of hot. However did you manage to survive? [/sarcasm]

Wuss.

Re:4 million people disagree

[sjbe]

So by this time next year a couple thousand of those 4 million will be dead.

"Couple thousand"? By your own numbers we should expect around 360 murders (48/100,000*750,000), most of which will not occur anywhere near where most people actually go. Tens of thousands work downtown and Ford Field, Comerica Park, Joe Louis Arena, Detroit Institute of Art, Cobo Hall, Wayne State University, several casinos and quite a few other attractions are downtown. Few people ever have a problem. Get a clue.

There's a lot more to avoid in Detroit than the snow.

Why would I want to avoid either Detroit or the snow? Literally millions of people go to Detroit every year without any incident whatsoever. Most of Detroit City is no more dangerous than any other major metro area in the US. An most people DON'T LIVE IN DETROIT CITY.

Plus I like to ski and skate. Why would I avoid the snow?

Re:4 million people disagree

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm white. Those murder statistics don't apply to me.

Re:4 million people disagree

[warpuck]

Most of that is east side & Brightmoor. Midtown & downtown is like the burbs, gangs & thugs don't like take chances there. Wayne State, MSP, Sherif, Federal & Detroit highly visible there.

Re:4 million people disagree

[mschuyler]

4 million people was the figure quoted. 4 million people "disagreed." I assumed that was the population of Detroit. Obviously that was wrong, It's the "Metro area of Detroit" that is 4 million, so you get off on a technicality, but it does NOT CHANGE THE FACT that Detroit's murder rate of 48 per 100,000 is FAR higher than more civilized parts of the country, including San Jose at 4.1 per 100,000.

Add to that the fact that the city is bankrupt through decades of mismanagement, it's houses are being bulldozed. The only thing that keeps the city going is gambling. It's police force is brutal, as is its extremes of climate. And its economy sucks.

Other than that, I'm sure it's a great place to live. Pardon if the rest of the country doesn't flock to live there, Meanwhile the city proper (since you insist on those numbers) has witnessed a decline in population from over a million in 1990 to 713,000 today. In other words, people are leaving as fast as they can.

Where?

[sjbe]

It may not be as bad outside the city, but in my experience, it was nearly so.

Bullshit. Where did you live? Oakland, McComb an Washtenaw counties are all very nice places to live.

Great for devs ...

[Anonymous Coward]

... if they can live long enough without being murdered.

Software is just a small part of tech

[sjbe]

I'm sure that's true if you're counting traditional engineering fields, meaning not including software engineers. I'm not sure it would still be true if you included software

Not as much software as some other places but that is changing FAST. Cars are getting a lot of software these days and so is the equipment used to make them. Plus a lot of software companies have a presence in the area including Google and some other big names. University of Michigan produces a lot of pretty good software talent and places like Ann Arbor are great places to start tech ventures.

Software is just a small, though important, part of technology. Apple, Google, Microsoft, Amazon and Facebook hardly comprise the entirety of the technology universe.

don't move to TX

[trybywrench]

please don't move here, i hear SanFran is nice.

Detroit ETF

[Iniamyen]

We need a Detroit ETF

They are not Christians

[ub3r n3u7r4l1st]

Real Christians don't discriminate other Christians. These Bible Belt Christians discriminate against Asian-American Christians.

They are Pharisees at best, the exact group of people Jesus trying to condemn.

stats

[Anonymous Coward]

You are @#$%ing crazy if you think Detroit is safer than Oakland, in the aggregate, by any measure.

Detoilet positioned to undergo a great revival

[ub3r n3u7r4l1st]

Real estate is dirt cheap compare to San Francisco. Heck, you can get a house for a few HUNDRED dollars!

You are adorable

[gelfling]

Detroit? There are two kinds of people in Detroit. Corrupt politicians and union bosses on the take and stubborn backwards people who would rather starve than change. If you're not bringing back the glory days of the 1960's where a high school grad could make $40,000/yr with benefits then they won't listen to you.

Whaddaya expect?

[Anonymous Coward]

Land is like $1.99 per 500 acres, but you get no mail, trash service, recycling, ambulance service or cops. You DO get door-to-door squatters, though...

NOPE

[Anonymous Coward]

I challange these claims. It looks like a bunch of spin doctoring to me.

1. Automotive industry there is bust. and without that, there isn't enough demand for technology, so the market can't be that big.

2. The city is bankrupt, and that is never a good environment to move or initialize a startup technology venture.

3. Austerity measures have already raided pensions to nearly 5%. That is a very toxic workplace.

It's not the color of their skin...

[Anonymous Coward]

...it's the content of their character. 50+ years on uninterrupted Democratic rule will do that to a place...

Re:It's not the color of their skin...

[i kan reed]

Okay, with that bit of context, it's clear that you, at least, intend it as racism, and are looking for a way to pretend it's not. Are you aware of how your broad-based assertions of this sort actually help clarify your racist intentions, and that many people are familiar with people pretending to care about Dr. Kings words while in practice doing no such thing?

Like... we've seen this for years. We know you guys. We aren't fooled. You might as well go back to the transparent racism.

Re:It's not the color of their skin...

[Anonymous Coward]

It can't be that. Tech hubs like Boston, Austin, and the San Francisco region seems to be getting along just fine with Democratic leadership.

Come to think of it, where are all of the republican tech hubs hiding?

Re:Nothing new - Always had tech jobs (2)

[Anonymous Coward]

Mod parent up. Defense contractors. Lots of good work, but also a lot of waste.

this discussion, sure brings back the memories....

[recharged95]

New technologies have left Detroit behind.

OK, let's get started. I've had this dream for more than a decade now. and I've asked you all to share with me. In six months we begin construction... of Delta City. where Old Detroit now stands. I grew up in Old Detroit.... as a child I played in its streets.... those same streets have become a breeding ground for crime and social decay. Before we employ the 2 million workers that will breathe life into this city again we must pacify Old Detroit. Although shifts in the tax structure have created an economy ideal for corporate growth, community services, in this case law enforcement, have suffered. I think it's time we gave something back. Dick?

Fellow executives... it gives me great pleasure to introduce you to the future of law enforcement. ED 209. ....

Except ED 209 will be a General Atomics Predator.

What Technology?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm really surprised that technology companies still have this "old school" thinking when it comes to the location of their people. A good technology company should not have a geographic area if they are able to leverage remote workers effectively. Unfortunately the "butts in seats" mentality still exists despite the technology existing to make life better for everyone. The Linux Kernel team is a great example of effective remote teamwork.

NSA

[Anonymous Coward]

NSaaaaaa NSaaaaaa

USA is going no where you have ZERO TRUST...

Doomed to failure

[Anonymous Coward]

This is doomed to failure anyway, simply because car manufacturers are going for the wrong high tech. Self driving cars work, they work well on today's roads with today's technology and no current auto manufacturer wants anything to do with it. Because they'll replace traditional human driven automobiles wholesale, turning cars into something closer to a fungible commodity rather than a potential high profit margin status symbol they can be today.

But consumers aren't going to care. Self driving cars are safe, and 99% of the population is going to want the car to drive itself while they do whatever over any amount of other high tech gadgetry. What's the point of a high tech infotainment system and a thousand "driver alert" safety things when you can just stare at your phone in perfect safety while you're on your commute? The horse and buggy of human driven cars have numbered days, and like all the big carriage manufacturers of a hundred+ years ago today's auto manufacturers are too scared and too stolid to acknowledge as much, hoping instead that somehow giving their outdated products better amenities will cancel their obsolescence.

Calm down

[Anonymous Coward]

you paranoid conspiracy theorist!

Re:Detroit? HAHAHAHAAHAHAHA!

[Anonymous Coward]

Internet speeds in Ann Arbor don't look significantly different than the rest of Metro Detroit or any other major metro area.

See for yourself.

http://www.broadbandmap.gov/sp...

Perspective from Milwaukee, Wisconsin

[haaz]

Milwaukee has a number of parallels to Detroit, but just enough differences that we are not, and will not be, the "next Detroit." Milwaukee is on the upswing. The city has a growing population once again, following its decline during the era of deindustrialization and urban-to-suburban flight. Milwaukee still has good bones, and as more people come here, they find it has a real vibrancy to it. We're truly blessed with a number of great local coffee roasters, including Anodyne, Stone Creek, Sven's, and Valentine, in addition to the ubiquitous Colectivo (formerly Alterra). Pabst, Schlitz and Miller made Milwaukee a beer capitol, and now we've got fantastic microbreweries, Lakefront Brewing, Milwaukee Brewing Company, St. Francis Brewery, and the crowdfunded Brenner Brewing Company. There's five colleges and two major universities within city limits, and a great publicly-owned international airport.

Milwaukee's Green Corridor along S. 6th Street is our sandbox for sustainable development. Among many attributes, it has the world's largest slab of water-permeable concrete, which was made part of the stormwater containment system that runs a beautiful stream and provides water for the on-site community gardens. A food hub is being developed just across the street from there, and we're showing true green development is replete with benefits.

The 20th century saw Milwaukee's first apex, and we're building toward a larger, more sustainable one right now. I'm thrilled to be part of it.

The Edsel effect

[dbIII]

Detroit industries went from being run by the competent to being run by the relatives of the competent. To top it off it became the playground of MBAs replacing technical management, and considered itself to have too good a reputation to every have to worry about the likes of Toyota. When a slightly tweaked version of a 1938 German car was vastly more technologically advanced than their product they didn't react, and their sheer size and inertia was the only thing that stopped Detroit being a ghost town in the 1960s.
Silicon Valley doesn't quite have that problem yet - apart from disasters in progress like HP of course.

And yet, nothing can keep me there

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm in tech. I own a home in Metro Detroit (because hardly anyone who says they're from Detroit actually lives within the city limits). I grew up here. I've seen innumerable flashes of hope followed by complete failure and two recessions. Let the hipsters move in and resurrect the slums - I want no more part of it. I'm moving to where governments and fiscal policies are more** sane, where unions don't run the town. I don't understand why people continue to defend such a backwards, bleak, cold and dreary place incapable of handling success and where the majority populace of the largest city in the area refuses to break free from a cycle of public assistance and plantation mentality. Call me racist, call me a bigot, I could care less - Live here, spend years here, and you'll see the region for what it is. The sad matter of fact is that Henry Ford's dystopia will never rise from the ashes of entitlement run absolutely amok. Detroit and the region will remain a minor player for generations to come. It'll probably be followed by jeers and shouts of 'good riddance,' but I'm out the door, heading out of state. Leaving that mess, the negative attitudes, the shitty weather and the awful political and financial climate behind me.

Detroit is progressive

[Anonymous Coward]

that's why it's such a rathole.

Starting with the Model Cities Program in the sixties, it's been the Social Scientists' paradise. Every liberal idea has been implemented there. Any number of youtube videos will show you how wonderful The D is.

And you want racism? Detroit has plenty of it, the black on white variety. You didn't hear about it, but a white motorist accidentally hit a black youth. When he got out of his vehicle to render assistance, he was beaten nearly to death by blacks. Yes it was a hate crime, yes he was attacked for his skin color, no it won't be prosecuted as such. What a great place to raise kids /s.

I'll take the south any day, it's much more tolerant. This Michigander has had it.

Detroit HiTech

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, what about all the IT jobs lost in the last 20 years in the Detroit area?
Troy/Auburn Hils etc used to be a 'hi tech corridor' when GM/EDS etc etc
were hiring all those Liberal Arts grads and teaching them to code in PL/1,IMS/DB2...

Would be nice if there actually WERE some jobs in Michigan. there aren't any right now...

why are u.s. automotive companies

[Anonymous Coward]

still in detroit?

Liberal utopia

[Anonymous Coward]

That's why the Detroit the article is talking about, is all of southeast Michigan except the liberal utopia of the city of Detroit.

Disclaimer: I escaped it in 1970.

If all your startup needs is a fast internet conne

[Anonymous Coward]

You can buy a WHOLE HOUSE in Detroit for the cost of one month's rent in the Bay Area. And enjoy a city with a thriving arts and music scene, free-thinking spirit and authentic culture.

Question

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, how do you manipulate the mouse and spacebar without opposable thumbs?