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NYC's 19th-Century Horse Carriages Spawn Weird, Truck-Size Electric Car

Posted by samzenpus on from the origin-story dept.

cartechboy (2660665) writes "Led by Tesla, electric cars are all the rage now. And the idea of a nine-passenger all-electric vehicle sounds good--until you learn that it maxes out at 30 mph, weighs almost four tons, and costs in the six figures. What is this monstrosity? It's the Frankenstein creation of a group of animal-rights advocates, who are proposing it as the replacement for New York City's fabled horse carriages--and who paid $450,000 to have a prototype built. Who's against it? Would you believe Liam Neeson and one of NYC's daily papers? The huge electric car--modeled after an early 1900s open touring car, complete with brass lanterns--is on display this week at the New York Auto Show, and it's certainly attracting its share of attention."

39 of 204 comments (clear)

  1. Animal rights? by PPH · · Score: 3, Informative

    Its either pull a carriage or off to the dog food factory. Ask the horse for its preference.

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    1. Re:Animal rights? by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 2

      They just want less animals to be born.

      Or fewer.

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    2. Re:Animal rights? by Vegan+Cyclist · · Score: 2

      Wrong.

      End the industry, and it reduces demand for horses. It's not like if there's no demand for horses, they're going to keep breeding them just to send to dog food factories. (And there are a lot being eaten by humans actually. Not sure a lot are being fed to dogs in the US.)

      As it stands, they're used to pull carriages, THEN they're sent to slaughter. They don't get sent somewhere magical once they're no longer useful pulling carriages.

    3. Re:Animal rights? by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 2

      Wrong.

      End the industry, and it reduces demand for horses. It's not like if there's no demand for horses, they're going to keep breeding them just to send to dog food factories. (And there are a lot being eaten by humans actually. Not sure a lot are being fed to dogs in the US.)

      As it stands, they're used to pull carriages, THEN they're sent to slaughter. They don't get sent somewhere magical once they're no longer useful pulling carriages.

      Depends on the company. I know of a few companies that take horses whose owners can no longer afford to own them, and train those to pull carriages (so they already have a second lease on life). At the end of their service, they're put out to pasture at a petting/riding farm.

      This definitely isn't how all carriage businesses work, but a growing number do. Sure, the animals don't get to choose their vocation, and they don't get to magically revert thousands of years of domestication to roam free in the eurasian steppes once again, but it's a life, and not a bad one at that.

    4. Re:Animal rights? by MildlyTangy · · Score: 5, Funny

      Its either pull a carriage or off to the dog food factory. Ask the horse for its preference.

      The horse was consulted and has been asked which option it would prefer.

      The horse did not respond.

      The general conclusion was that it seemed likely that the horse did not understand English.

    5. Re:Animal rights? by PPH · · Score: 2

      the horse did not understand English.

      A dog was brought in to translate.

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    6. Re:Animal rights? by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      Depends on the company. I know of a few companies that take horses whose owners can no longer afford to own them, and train those to pull carriages (so they already have a second lease on life). At the end of their service, they're put out to pasture at a petting/riding farm.

      This definitely isn't how all carriage businesses work, but a growing number do.

      That's only because economic recovery is a dirty lie, and there's simply free horses available. There was a veritable torrent of free horses a couple years back. I live in the country, so I see these things... And there's still no shortage of free horses.

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    7. Re:Animal rights? by mythosaz · · Score: 2

      This sounds like the beginning of a great limerick.

  2. That Reminds Me by sycodon · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Pick up some Veal, lamb and Ribeyes on the way home tonight.

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  3. Animal cruelty? by gman003 · · Score: 5, Informative

    OK, the car actually seems like a decent idea, and might work well. But their motivation seems a bit ridiculous.

    I've ridden horses. Anyone claiming that riding horses is automatically animal cruelty is quite simply a moron. Fortunately, these people do not seem to be pushing that particular agenda - their claim is that NYC is inhospitable to horses.

    I haven't been to NYC, other than driving through, so I can't personally claim either way. However, if NYC is inhospitable enough to qualify as cruelty to horses, then NYC ought to be abandoned as unsafe for human habitation as well. After all, homo sapiens is a species of animal, so shouldn't animal cruelty apply to us as well?

    1. Re:Animal cruelty? by smooth+wombat · · Score: 2

      The difference is we have a choice when the weather gets too hot and humid or too cold as to whether we want to be out or not. The horses don't. They are at the whim of their owners.

      While there is a group of NYC officers whose job it is to check on the horses when the weather gets hot, and have the power to order the owners to take the horses to the stables, that is still different than humans being able to walk into an air conditioned building whenever they fell like it.

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    2. Re:Animal cruelty? by Ralph+Wiggam · · Score: 2

      How are wild animals forced to walk around constantly in the heat of the day? When it gets too hot they take a nap under a tree.

    3. Re:Animal cruelty? by sycodon · · Score: 2

      The ones with big teeth and long claws can do that. Pretty much all the others forage 24/7

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    4. Re:Animal cruelty? by Firethorn · · Score: 2

      there's also the option of rewilding them, letting them roam where they once did.

      You want them shipped to Europe? I'm sure the French/Italians would love that. They'd eat them.

      Fact is, most of these horses are so bred to work with humanity, and be cared for by humanity, that without humanity's help on average their lives would be exceptionally short and nasty.

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    5. Re:Animal cruelty? by gman003 · · Score: 2

      And those owners a) are out there suffering as well, and b) are taking proper care of their horses, if they have even an iota of intelligence.

      Horses are *expensive*. Even if you're a heartless bastard, you take care of them because they're expensive to replace. Most of the horse owners I've met take better care of their horses than they do themselves.

      If it's cold, you put blankets on them or take them inside. If it's too hot, you give them more water and don't ride them as hard (and I really doubt it will get too hot for horses in New York - we have wild horses down here in VA, and they deal with the heat just fine).

    6. Re:Animal cruelty? by hey! · · Score: 2

      Bostonian here.

      My work has taken me to cities all over the country, and I have to say that I've found New Yorkers to be the most considerate and helpful big city denizens in the US. The picture of the typical New Yorker as an obnoxious ogre is a phony movie and television trope.

      People mistake adaptations to the pace and concentration of urban life as unfriendliness. Yes, people don't smile and nod at everyone they meet as they stroll the length of 5th Avenue, because after three or four blocks they'd need a chiropractor. But approach one of those people on 5th Avenue for directions, and most of the time he'll be pleasant and eager to be helpful.

      Of course, you take your chances approaching strangers in any big city, but I also think that a lot of the treatment you receive is determined by the attitude you bring with you. I've heard wildly different reports on the infamous rudeness of Parisians, but the reports are usually a reflection of the kind of person making the report. Courteous people tend to be met with courtesy wherever they go, and obnoxious people get a rude reception.

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  4. $450,000? by Andrio · · Score: 2

    Someone's walking around with an extra $400,000 in their pocket.

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  5. Cheaper just to modify a Tesla? by swb · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Wouldn't it be vastly cheaper just to modify a Tesla? While probably not as simple as stretching a car, would it be $300,000+ more expensive to just put the old-tymey touring car body on a stretched Tesla frame?

    1. Re:Cheaper just to modify a Tesla? by Teancum · · Score: 2

      You are thinking too intelligently here and are used to the idea of using competent and proven technology to accomplish your solutions.

      Looking at the specs on this beast, it is lousy even for a custom electric automobile retooling job. There are plenty of custom automobile builders around the country, so I would have to presume that the real deal here is that somebody's nephew or niece was out of work and needed a job, thinking they could also reinvent the wheel at the same time.

  6. I like it! by nine-times · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'm not against the horse-drawn carriages, but I kind of like this car. It's charming. Can we have both?

  7. Re:And the horses? by BenSchuarmer · · Score: 4, Funny

    They'll take them to a nice farm... um out in the country... um where they can spend all their time in a field chasing rabbits.

  8. Stupid? by chispito · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Disclosure: I've never been to NYC, and I don't know how these horses are treated. If they're generally treated poorly, then disregard my comments.

    That said, it makes me wonder if the animal rights activists have ever met working horses. Working animals are bred for their jobs and they tend to enjoy them. My brother owned a draft horse and there was nothing he liked better than pulling. If pulling teams are animal cruelty, then so is playing fetch with your retriever.

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    1. Re:Stupid? by AK+Marc · · Score: 2

      PETA thinks that vanity pets are cruel slavery. PETA hates animals, but hates humans more.

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    2. Re:Stupid? by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 2

      If pulling teams are animal cruelty, then so is playing fetch with your retriever.

      This particular group of animal-rights types is not PETA (though they may be affiliated with, or have membership overlap with, PETA).

      That said, PETA does, in fact, believe that you should not be allowed to have a retriever (or any other pet). Much less make the poor dog "play fetch".

      For the record, I have a lab. Nothing he likes better than run and fetch the stick (except run and fetch the steak).

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    3. Re:Stupid? by Ralph+Wiggam · · Score: 2

      I would like to see some data comparing the number of hours worked weekly by these NYC carriage horses and your brother's horse. When it was particularly hot or cold one day, I would bet that your brother gave the horse the day off.

    4. Re:Stupid? by swillden · · Score: 3, Insightful

      My brother owned a draft horse and there was nothing he liked better than pulling. If pulling teams are animal cruelty, then so is playing fetch with your retriever.

      Just another anecdote, a friend of mine has sled dogs (~30 dogs, two sleds; he's fairly serious about it) and those dogs clearly love to pull. All you have to do is jingle a harness, or start loading equipment into the trailer used to haul dogs + gear and they go nuts with excitement, crowding over and trying to be first into the traces/trailer. You lay the traces out on the ground and they immediately run to their positions, with some squabbling over who gets to be where, and wait anxiously to be hooked up. The toughest part of getting going in the morning is making them wait until you're ready to go, and then they'll happily run all day long (as long as they get suitable breaks, with food and water). Those who are hurt or otherwise getting a day off are clearly dejected by not getting a chance to get into the traces.

      I've known many horses who were almost as excited about their jobs... though I've also known a few who were quite lazy and didn't like to work.

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    5. Re:Stupid? by Teancum · · Score: 2

      You very likely don't know the first thing about these draft horses in general and the carriage horses in particular, and I seriously doubt you've seen any of them outside of simply passing by one of them on a street as you were busy getting your latte or spritz after work.

      No competent owner of a horse, nor any of the drivers, are going to be intentionally mistreating a horse in the manner you describe simply from a pure economic standpoint. They are expensive to breed and take at least two years or so minimum before they are even capable of being able to pull one of these carriages, and both owners and drivers develop strong personal bonds with them. The death of a horse is a significant tragedy for both the owner and driver (who may very likely be one and the same). While in the past it may have been true that finding another draft horse was easy, it isn't so easy to do in 21st Century America so you need to have a special relationship with a farm or two where you can get the horses as well. There is definitely a limited supply of those kind of horses.

      I'll also note that any driver who hits a horse is also a complete idiot. An automobile or even a truck is far more maneuverable and faster than a horse drawn carriage, where the carriage also sticks out like a sort thumb in traffic and usually can be spotted blocks away. It is a very rare situation where a horse and a car get in a collision... where not only will the driver get the ticket and the responsibility to pay for the horse (as I said,something worth a whole lot of money) or find their automobile insurance rates will skyrocket. Very likely they will also get a DUI citation because you really would need to be drunk in order to hit one of these horses.

      The only part of your comment that bears anything to reality is the comparison of draft horses to slaves. If that is the case, you need to thank draft horses for ending slavery, because a well care for horse with the right bridal and harness was able to do the work of five men and eat the resources of three.... thus replacing a whole bunch of people from needing to be slaves who instead could be an ignorant college student in a 1st world country thinking they've learned everything there is to know. There is a pretty good reason why slavery wasn't common in Europe in the late middle ages, in spite of being very common in the Roman Empire, and the common draft horse was one of the reasons for that happening. You very likely wouldn't have even written your comment if it wasn't for your ancestors having access to draft horses and using them to support themselves and provide opportunities for their descendents.

    6. Re:Stupid? by bws111 · · Score: 2

      In addition to your economic reasons one must also consider what the horses are doing - giving romantic rides to tourists. There is nothing romantic about a sick, dying, or mistreated horse, so it is certainly in their best interest to not have those conditions.

    7. Re:Stupid? by geekoid · · Score: 2

      I can not imagine dealing with what a carriage driver does and not caring for horses. It would be a stupid, tiring, frustrating, and poor job to take.
      They would be better off driving a cab.

      What if those dog breeders had to take their dogs out into the public most days where the where scrutinized?
      Plus, an abused horse make a poor animal to pull a carriage.

      " especially the external dangers they face from cars or becoming panicked in the city."
      How many of these trained horses panic? How many hit by automobiles?
      FYI: 4 in 30 years.

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    8. Re:Stupid? by geekoid · · Score: 3, Interesting

      "They never leave the city (except to be sent to slaughter.) "
      not always true.

      "Their stalls are appalling."
      That's a blatant lie.

      " Often, they don't 'like' pulling, "
      You have never worked around horse, have you?

      "which is an appalling stable in this case."
      again,l that's a blatant lie.

      hmm, someone with the name VeganCyclist whose opinion is devoid of facts. I'm shocked.

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  9. Use the Big Dog instead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Bunch of idiots. If they are going that route, why not use dog robot developed by Boston Dynamic? See www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2rq7rKgjJQ

    1. Re:Use the Big Dog instead by Ralph+Wiggam · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I would absolutely pay to ride in an old fashioned carriage pulled by a robotic horse. That's some "Diamond Age" shit.

  10. Re:And the horses? by mwvdlee · · Score: 2

    So what happens to the rabbits then?

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  11. electric golf carts by Geoffrey.landis · · Score: 3, Interesting

    OK, the car actually seems like a decent idea, and might work well.

    A decent idea? They just spent half a million dollars to re-invent the electric golf cart!

    There are a dozen of of these things driving around every airport in America.

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  12. Fake cable cars by Animats · · Score: 2

    Not as bad as the stupid fake cable cars we have in San Francisco.

    The fake ones are more dangerous than the real ones. The real ones are limited to 9.5MPH (the cable speed), but the fake ones, on truck chassis, can go at highway speeds. They have sideways facing seats, standees, and no seat belts, which is OK at 9.5MPH but not at 30.

  13. Use Dinosaurs by jayrtfm · · Score: 2

    I'd like to see a few animatronic dinosaurs instead of cars. http://disney.wikia.com/wiki/Lucky_the_Dinosaur

  14. Re:electric, steam, internal combustion alternativ by ganjadude · · Score: 2

    Jay leno has a large collection of working steam cars, He says they are some of his favorite https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

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  15. This is no Porsche [Re:electric golf carts] by Geoffrey.landis · · Score: 2

    You go to some fancy airports. FYI: Electric vehicle doe snot equal golf cart. No more then Porsche = go cart.

    This thing is no Porsche. Did you read the article? "a so-called 'geo-fence' would restrict it to 5 mph inside Central Park-- 'thus continuing the tradition of horse-drawn carriages causing traffic congestion in and around midtown,' as New York Intelligencer noted acerbically."

    5 MPH? Calling it a golf cart is rather slandering golf carts. Of course, it can sprint at up to 30 MPH (outside Central Park, only)-- but so can golf carts. They're just not allowed to, because they don't have the safety features of a car. But neither does this.

    It's a golf cart. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

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  16. The obvious, cheaper compromise by PapayaSF · · Score: 3, Funny

    Let's have animal rights activists pull the carriages.

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